The Metagame review with Mango, Leffen... and Zain - Podcast Episode 5

[@GiIford]

My favorite moment was when PP said he needs a bigger dash and then popped out the Marth and and started dash dancing.

[@ASDisastersama]

Same. This is the equivalent of "now he will try". True that Kevin didn't won that tourney... Maybe they shoulve make a call back from apex2015 when he was down 2-0 and changed to Marth to win 3-2. I think it was against S2J? Yeah, put a black and white clip of that phrase with echo during that time, and then the victory.

[@Julian-um2om]

My favorite is when pp visualizes the perfect game and when pp and mango fight in kings of cali cause the music was so sick during that part

[@IceCreamCake96]

My favorite part was when Leffen says he’s going to stop supporting Nintendo but then he continues to support them

[@henryreturns1397]

My favorite part was when the Pantheon , the orb of PPMD was starting to revive, and won the set against Leffen. And all the chat was losing their shit and start emoting the "POG" face.

[@GhostBeatboxFugu]

"Just make me like a Vegeta or something, not Hitler" this quote is beautiful lol

[@agneskennicott7851]

"Just make me like a Vegeta" Yeah, he'd like that, wouldn't he.. What a clown.

[@kanestewart6691]

@@agneskennicott7851 Why is he a clown, exactly?

[@agneskennicott7851]

@@kanestewart6691 He's in love with his own image, and any time he tries so hard to portray himself as an 'anime villain', it's what the kids today love to call 'cringe'.

[@kanestewart6691]

@@agneskennicott7851 I mean, I don't personally feel there's much of an issue with being in love with your own image, especially when you put a copious amount of work into it. In my hobbies, I personally care more about others' perception of me than my own success. If he's putting all this work and effort in to change and improve and people still are going to only see the child in him, I'd understand being frustrated with that. Sure, maybe it's a bit silly that rather than wanting to have a 'better' image, he wants a specific image of 'anime villain,' but I don't think that's anything to necessarily shit on him for.

[@purpleiguana9346]

I think shadow the hedgehog would be more appropriate

[@SkuIIKn1ght]

Every time Ludwig's interview cuts came on screen it always felt like a mockumentary that he made himself lol

[@blackh4ze778]

He plays peach and makes it look eaaaaasy! not sure if that was the line word for word, but def. felt like a parody when he said that XD

[@wetigaz]

This is just speculation, but my guess was that those Ludwig interviews were filmed way later than everything else and were meant to replace interview cuts with people who were cancelled last year when all the sexual misconduct allegations came out.

[@blackh4ze778]

@@wetigaz hmmm ye, thats an interesting take i could see being true. Cuz overall, it definetely didnt make sense to me that Ludwig was in it, since Ludwig didnt rly got introduced in the doc at all.

[@cheryldragunoff4129]

@@wetigaz that's what happen lud said

[@lukerose4166]

@@blackh4ze778 Yeah, Ludwig was a nobody in 2015

[@BillyOfOrange]

“I can be Vegeta, but not Hitler!” I’m dead

[@leon9021]

Hes more like an asshole Jiren.

[@x123Juancho123x]

Vegeta literally genocided entire planets though.

[@leon9021]

@@x123Juancho123x Yeah and Leffen was toxic at the start as well, but he got better too.

[@drop0ut606]

@@x123Juancho123x but it was indiscriminate. Wanton destruction still seems less evil for some reason "but I'm aware it's actually not" but in perception it seems that way.

[@SufferDYT]

@@drop0ut606 Blowing up a planet is way less evil than what occurred during the holocaust.

[@henryreturns1397]

As Hugs mention , all these 3 players are from different generations : - Mango as gen 2.0 or 2.5 - Leffen as gen 3 - Zain as gen 4 (Doc Kid)

[@franksausage4174]

Why are we calling it generations when competitive melee has only been relevant culturally for like the past decade?

[@wearbroom]

@@franksausage4174 it's a manner of speech

[@franksausage4174]

@@wearbroom naw though I got to disagree with that. As a manner of speech it's actually supposed to mean something. If they're all like at most 10 years apart in age I'm assuming, in addition the scene has been over a 10-year span, I don't think that grammatically makes sense. I.e, are you a man or a speech or not there's really no meaning to it. For context, I'm not mad or nothing, It just don't make sense

[@bum3hundred]

@@franksausage4174 damn bro you gotta relax

[@TheNaaahhhh]

@@franksausage4174 dude everyone knows what OP means when he is talking about generations, you are arguing about semantics for no reason. If you really don't get why he's using the word "gen" or you are actually arguing about it's grammatical incorrectness, then you are in the "very smart" minority

[@shivamudide1749]

when is leffen gonna give us the hair tutorial lol

[@FreyrFox]

pretty sure he subgoaled or something for a hair tutorial/routine a whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile ago, too

[@PKWinning07]

it looks so soft and nice

[@cheesekimbap2996]

its the korean genes

[@jjrambles683]

@@00ooo000o real life Gary Oak

[@courage_the_cowardly_cam]

It's definitely the Korean genes

[@tuckerjohnson4082]

Imagine the next podcast, it’s gonna be mango making fun of Zain for getting like 8th or some shit in LACS for an hour...

[@dumithegreat3892]

oh god, you’re probably right too

[@zygiwong]

They made my b a sad moment I’m dying lolol

[@SocknessMonster]

Mad props to mango for keeping his eyes open for the whole video

[@sdw-hv5ko]

I appreciate you guys being fair with your critique. Samox got a lot of undeserved social media hate, and while the doc had flaws it had a lot of strengths that went underappreciated

[@McBain137]

The "Never Ever" episode about HBox has the exact God setup that Leffen describes. It shows Hax as the best of the non-gods get 3-and-then-4 stocked by PP. Completely agree with his point there.

[@jeromepain8447]

Give Leffen sephiroth music and the doc gets so much more hype

[@Tuckzelda]

29:04 Leffen: "I creamed him!" Zain, quietly, doing the Wife impression: "Creamed him."

[@KLWV]

What a spot dude lmao

[@leaffinite2001]

I wouldve never heard that damn

[@sdw-hv5ko]

Your money boss

[@xZigeRx]

xD hbox had more air time in mangos ep in doc 1 then the entire doc 2

[@prodbyjustin7022]

yea why was the ending still sad. if the doc is gonna focus around PP and his battle with depression atleast make his apex run and ending hype

[@4purs]

Luxmore true. But still I think melee is such a hype game that any ending other than hype is kind of disappointing. I get what he was trying to do, trying to humanize the gods and basically put his filmography / directing creativity in it by subverting the expectations but I think that works better on films not documentaries about such a hype video game.

[@micahheneveld5739]

It had a sad tone because the era of the five gods was over. That's why leffens matches had sad music, because he was destroying the established godhood. Melee lost that era when leffen defeated the gods

[@drifter402]

It wasn't. I really think it's just Leffen superfans that are mad. Like Leffen even here has the most bizzare interpretations

[@swank8508]

@@drifter402 most long term members of the community felt like leffen was slighted

[@ManuelPersona24]

PPMD beating Leffen was my favorite part honestly!

[@edgaracosta9976]

I think you guys have something really cool with this podcast. It would be cool if you guys had other melee players as guests, because you actually paint a better picture of what competitive melee is like, more than the documentary imo

[@swank8508]

HARD agree, replying for the algorithm because maybe more people will see and like it? idk how yt works

[@edgaracosta9976]

@@swank8508 Sometimes i feel like the melee community is too dispersed. They should learn some things about the ultimate streamers in that regard. They just seem to all coexist in harmony

[@swank8508]

@@edgaracosta9976 if everyone held hands and got along it would be boring. I hate petty drama as much as the next person, but rivalries are sick

[@edgaracosta9976]

@@swank8508 I mean I honestly dont care about drama, specially when it comes to grown ass adults playing video games lol. I just wanna watch good players fight each other more often. Rivalries are often over dramatised and it leads to the complaints that they were talking about in the podcast

[@yung.alchemist]

40:28 Mango has me dying "am I just the best of a bunch of shitty ass players? ... sound familiar leffen?"

[@Bassta]

We have a french videomaker named Bronol that made videos about the 5 gods, one for each depicting their carreer. Even if the doc was okay i far more enjoyed his content. Subs are starting to appear for non french speakers (already available for M2K's vid) and if i understood right he is making an episode on you now that the gods are covered, can't wait that it becomes enjoyable for everyone, really good stuff !

[@simongran5611]

You got a link to it? I would to check it out

[@Bassta]

@@simongran5611 put "bronol mew2king" in the search menu, should pop right away ;)

[@leaffinite2001]

26:25 "And then when he(PPMD) finally wins, its kinda cool, cuz....... uh, me and Armada lose" The Mang0

[@puxtbuck6731]

Leffen is gonna start wearing an eyepatch and join Team Rocket

[@iRmRs]

Already had the sad music on standby. Gotta have it when these two villains take the stage showing off their hostage

[@leaffinite2001]

Loved the last 3 minutes where tey allowed us a glimpse of some of the more thorough and intricate methods top players use to rank each other. Simply brilliant.

[@lanexyz]

“Ayo leffen, why’d you do chillin like that bro?”

[@lanexyz]

Armadas family had dota 2 artwork framed on the wall that whole family are gamers

[@ben_venuto]

*podcast starts* Leffen: ALRIGHT

[@tweak3871]

Dude, it's so fucking cool to see Mang0 the old school legend, Leffen the original disruptor, and Zain the new school god, shoot the shit. Says a lot about all 3 of them and I think its a sign of good things to come for melee. Fucking dope.

[@Bookake-2]

agreed, the dynamic is really interesting and really enjoyable to watch

[@PreacherJenkins]

Surprised they didn’t tell the story of the evil villain Bizzarro Flame snatching the soul of poor innocent Eikelmann. A truly sad day in Melee history 😥

[@oceanwaves83]

Lol they did show it at least. Eikelmann crumbled there under the pressure. I played both of them in dittos back then and when Eikelmann wasn't nervous he was definitely better. Bizz is the man, love that guy. But his style in dittos leaves him open and vulnerable to heavy pressure.

[@dal4268]

The ending was like they did a 180 in terms of atmosphere

[@kestrel7493]

I think a great part of the first doc was Wife, he carried the commentary and had a story with everyone. He was a connecting piece that made everything more secure and feel more cohesive

[@Jayluna98]

Yo this podcast was such a good idea I've seen every episode and been entertained and enlightened a bit each time. Great stuff from all of you and the editor!

[@ParagonPKC]

GiMR's under pressure video style about visa arc could cover this leffen arc in 15 minutes

[@trueblueryu5713]

20:13 The funny thing is that's exactly what Emplemon did in his Hbox vid to get the point across, and it probably worked better there to highlight the dominance of the 5 gods.

[@imanthonyjames]

The one thing that was missed was the Armada and Android teaming up at Apex. I thought that was going to pop up when the whole story about Android being happy that Armada was going to play in Tournaments again. That would have been a cool brudder moment. Especially with the Pop off from Armada and them winning as brothers against Ice and Leff.

[@someeggplant]

"if you're going to make me a villain, at least let me be a cool villain. Like, vegeta... not Hitler." Classic Leffen omfg lmao

[@Pi22aPino]

It’s great that zain is giving his honest opinion even though it’s opposing the others. He’s such a great personality

[@ManuelPersona24]

The new doc used many soundtracks from the first doc. I would have included new exciting tracks, e.g. the one which was played during Leffen vs. PPMD at Apex 2015!

[@ManuelPersona24]

The Anime pictures during the Isai episode were actually unnecessary because Melee is more important than finding a dumb girlfriend.

[@jetzine00]

They should re-interview every God + Leff in present day and weave the old footage into them. We need a 2020/2021 perspective on Melee, not a 2018 one.

[@eded94]

“you better hope covid never ends” LOL

[@malonee]

I'm a giant mango/zain fan and none and ppl but I think my favorite moment in the community was leffen winning evo

[@toewstokane9023]

Metagame: PPMDepression Story With all due respect to Kevin.

[@homarsimpsom]

Due

[@toewstokane9023]

@@homarsimpsom due*

[@Minddrops]

I watched the documentary, and I've never heard of Melee before seeing it, here's what I thought about it : - I agree with you that the first three episodes were good, but I think the other ones were OK for me, and I didn't lose interest, and I still watched the whole thing. - it's true that the documentary seemed not focused, it went into a lot of directions, I think the narrative could be better. - The story is about the 5 gods, but it wasn't balanced, there's almost nothing about M2K, they should have talked to him too. - Mang0 was portrayed as a very cool guy in the beginning, and then they painted him as a total ass to Kevin, and I think they should have asked Mang0 about their relationship, we didn't get Mang0's perspective and he didn't get the chance to explain or defend himself. - They should have interviewed Leffen, I was asking myself the whole time while watching the last episodes why don't they talk to the guy. Overall I think it's an interesting documentary, it's not perfect, but I think it was good, it made the game looks good, and it made its community looks cool.

[@swank8508]

does it make you want to play melee?

[@ste_e_p]

@@swank8508 The only question that matters.

[@Minddrops]

@@swank8508 Yes

[@swank8508]

@@Minddrops NICE! After downloading slippi, make sure to stop by the melee online discord and the discord for your specific character, both can be found on the website smashcords

[@Minddrops]

@@swank8508 Thanks

[@ManuelPersona24]

The Golden Belt at Genesis 2 was the highlight!

[@Crash_Bash_4ever]

I loved the doc

[@PKWinning07]

Episodes 2+3 blew expectations out of the water even after 6 years of hype! Hopefully 4-7 will do the same next draft.

[@ManuelPersona24]

Genesis 2 music was brilliant!

[@BoxMachina]

I think Jason got done dirty too because they dont really give him a lot of credit for being the last holdout gatekeeper against Leffen. Like he's still kind of dominating Leffen for a little while before he gets taken out but they skip so much time in between really not focusing on M2K AT ALL that they mention it... but it's almost like a throwaway moment

[@kpldtest]

there just needs to be pre-screening, especially those portrayed in the documentary...

[@sidrose9721]

very good takes, very good takes. samox has the talent and with a few easy fixes definitely could go from good to amazing. also people who actually go at samox are terrible, he's done and is still doing so much for the scene.

[@derekw9724]

I'm amazed at how hilarious these three are, their chemistry is amazing. Keep it up boiz. Also, Zain, get back to shit posting asap

[@Heartkiller999]

Keep these podcasts coming! Love them.

[@chlomeursmasheur5144]

Should watch the bronol documentary it is amazing english subtitle are coming

[@MarketMakerGamer]

"interview zain for a bonus ep" ded

[@AniKhang]

The bois are back 👀

[@paxtonkocka3803]

I'm not a part of the community. I have been to 2 locals before covid shut everything down. I play slippi sometimes and practice but only started playing after the first doc appeared in my KZbin recommendations. I really enjoyed the new doc and hope samox makes another project, even if it isn't a large scale documentary.

[@dieklachst1675]

Mangos orb cracked because he turned into buster mango for a bit?

[@jamesesromer7924]

tap jump is the real goat move

[@eulefranz944]

47:36 I think Zain would like himself LOOOOL HAHAHAHAHAHA SO TRUEEE

[@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot]

I like Mang0's idea for the storyline. I think Mang0 vs. Armada storyline with the Leffen and PPMD as subplots that weave into the story would be perfect. Maybe still end it with PPMD winning and/or a preview of the next generation. Keep M2K and HBox to smaller roles but bigger than they had in the doc. Just my opinion. Also, hate to be that guy but I really think the doc would be better if it had a more triumphant, epic tone. Not saying they shouldn't talk about depression, but it should have a smaller role instead of taking away from the whole "Melee is sick, let's get more people interested" angle.

[@LightningMcMurphy]

this podcast is fire

[@MAXXX1195]

This podcasts are just pure gold

[@bigdog5112]

Mango not having a cam really detracts from the podcast

[@plasticbudgie]

Big Leffen, OP Zain, and some Old guy who acts like Britain "I used to rule the world..."

[@Wobbuffet0]

I jump with X as well. Respect, Leffen!

[@dwarccanation2781]

TBH I THOUGHT EPISODE 7 AND 8 WERE BANGERS, I think everyone that is a mang0 and leffen fan just lost steam since they were painted in kind of a bad light. For a person that isn't heavily into the scene I thought 7-8 were great conclusions and I lowkey wish they didn't put the last part with what are they doing now? I get it that Samox even said he wants to do other video game documentaries but I wanted to see the armada, hungrybox, and leffen rise after apex 2015. I wanted to see m2k get into an esports team and win that supermajor, while also seeing mang0's kid and him being a father.

[@Danielsworlds]

It's been a joke for a long time that leffen is an anime villain. Story's need bad guys to root against and good guys to cheer. But the doc did dig a little bit into his past without giving him a followup redemption arc and that feels a bit disingenuous

[@Pi22aPino]

But it wasn’t a joke. Leffen took his villain role serious. Unfortunately his redemption arc started kinda in/after 2015. And it would be weird to just include his future story in the doc. The next doc could be centered around leffen and it would be amazing.

[@benbroomhead7083]

We have the same Ivysaur plush you love to see it

[@bw1170]

Wonder what Mang0 was looking at the whole hour. Looks like it was amusing.

[@NesDaKid]

holy shit you 3 make an amazingly interesting combination for entertainment

[@bobbysalazars1645]

Over already watched the live but I had to watch again lol

[@enigmere]

Very fair review, I hope samox changes some stuff and the doc can be very good!

[@slpn2314]

I cant believe leffen is complaining about being portrayed as a villain. That is how he portrayed himself during that time, he may have changed a little but as a viewer from the beginning of leffen the doc showed leffen as I saw him at the time

[@Athesies]

Mango's profile getting nuked d8dnt make sense but was fucking hilarious to me

[@Orbrun]

56:26 Anyone else remember The Big House 5 top 8 intro?

[@Lacerated_Heart]

I only got to watch episode 1-3 :( also I'm not part of the community really. I've watched the first documentary n I thought it was awesome n I loved the first 3 episodes of meta. I'm scared to watch the last episodes now though. I feel like it made made mango look really awesome but I didnt get to finish metagame. So far from what I learned I really like mew2king and hungrybox. I dont know too much about mango but metagame the first 3 episodes made me a fan of mango for sure. Also I found this cuz I watched some sephiroth videos of Leffen's. The first doc definitely got me interested in competitive smash. This metagame doc def made armada seem like he was the main character in the 1-3 episodes though.

[@henryreturns1397]

Just watch them and draw your own conclusions. Many people have different takes , bias opinions , and different point of views. You might ending up liking it more than the Smash brothers doc or the first three episodes.

[@kevindore2004]

Keep in mind as well that even our own perceptions of these players within the community is heavily skewed by tournament performance and content like the two docs. If you want to get a better perspective, everyone portrayed in the doc streams or produces content of some kind. You'll get a better idea of how they come across. Also try not to put these guys on a pedestal just because they're really good at a children's fighting game. They're people too, so when people literally deify the 'Gods' everything they do is viewed under a microscope. That's why narratives like Mango being a drunk and M2K being a perfect robot get reiterated, even though they're far from the realities those two dudes actually live with. You said you were interested in competitive smash. I'll say this: Melee is the closest eSports will ever resemble real athletics. The typical constraints video games have lie in their controls. Pro melee players are so good that the characters they play are essentially unlocked from any rigidity in control. The characters really do become an extension of the player (when I'm in the zone playing Melee, it honestly feels like im in the game fighting). There aren't many more hype scenes out there, if any.

[@swank8508]

try melee out the community is sick and the game is even more sick

[@KittSpiken]

How many successful genocides did Vegeta execute before meeting Goku?

[@CosmicRadiationMusic]

I get the documentary is obviously about the players but I just wished they talked more about the game itself in the doc.

[@cypi6210]

It’s triggering that it’s not 200k yet my ocd

[@GlobusTheGreat]

same for with your word order me

[@bmagaziner]

Shut up

[@HowardAltEisen]

My favorite part of all of this is how it all devolves into a mad goof fest in the last minute. Never change, guys.

[@infantiltinferno]

Mang0's orb got nuked because Samox is giving him GOAT. That's why he's on top of the pentacle, that's why his explosion is bigger. If anyone should complain about that, it's Armada - the story's timeframe cuts off before his case for GOAT really starts to gain momentum.

[@InprisonedShadow]

are episode 4 & 5 going to be on spotfiy soon?

[@CraigPark]

The only episode I'm missing on spotify is the first one.

[@wabrht]

My french stupid ass thought they were talking about bronol's doc for like 20 minutes damn

[@jaggs9000]

Lets go i love these podcasts

[@805guitars2]

biggest gripe is that samox left out leffen getting 4 stocked.

[@Meracog]

Honestly the only reason I liked the first Doc was Wife. The newer one overall was better but some of it was definitely weird. Many times throughout it I thought "Man that's wild." Or "My B"

[@ivancastro365]

This doc was fire dude. Y’all are crazy

[@John-nk3ej]

It was so boring lol

[@ManuelPersona24]

It was fire 🔥 My favorite parts were Genesis 2 and PPMD vs. Leffen!

[@saberhof]

Meta game documentary : depression of kevin :’(

[@billymcmahon1171]

why has mang0 gone no cam the last 2 podcasts?

[@vj7248]

He got a new PC that essentially bugged out if he had cam on when streaming. Think its fixed now

[@runaway74]

Caveman type beat 😔

[@Hothiboi]

Samox? You in the comments?

[@werewolfxd1396]

does anyone know what music they used for leffen in the doc? link would be appreciated

[@BKnapp]

12:03 Big facts.

[@zombieraddish]

Armada does NOT hike lol

[@ParagonPKC]

If Mang0 knew what PPMD was going thru I know he'd still make fun of him but in a much more lighthearted way.

[@dabsouljaboy]

the orb stuff wus cool B)

[@maxbunster243]

Is there a new doc or are they talking about the old one?

[@firelifeblizzard8782]

Leftist Zain is what makes him the best player in the world

[@lordhawkeye]

The doc was fine, leaned way to hard on depressing, but ultimately was advertized wrong. It had virtually nothing to do with the 5 Gods. It failed to show when H-Box went on to tear apart the scene or how M2K literally was the best smash player for two smash games at the same time. It was the Armada and PPMD show with special guest Mango and music guest Leffen.

[@mageius]

I'm still waiting to see the second part of you watching the smash documentary. The one about Melee I mean.

[@hugonamenlos7218]

The new one is about meele too lol

[@mageius]

@@hugonamenlos7218 I'm aware, but I mean the good one from ages back lpl

[@darylsdog9521]

When is it coming out so I can watch

[@ilikepiers]

what does he say at 53:56?