The Modern "Hero Shooter"

[@Spiffyo]

TF2 is considered the best because it wasn't ever a fully defined Hero Shooter, and instead of adding more Mercenaries to the roster that'd likely dampen other characters, they added more weapons for the nine Mercs to fight with, keeping them unique and fresh, where enough variety has allowed Subclasses to exist since 2009.

[@P-Bean]

I absolutely agree, adding bloat characters instead of deepening existing characters is holding back a lot of modern games.

[@Mjgaming54321]

That’s also another reason why the Garden Warfare duology was so good - they just added variants, with there only being 8 classes as of GW2 (counting the secret characters). It helped make the game less stale without just letting any characters fall by the wayside. I agree that TF2’s system is better - the only character with proper, commonly used subclasses outside of variants is Scientist - but GW2 definitely comes close.

[@JonCrs10]

If TF2 is a Hero Shooter than so are the Classic Battlefront games. Especially BF2 for Mos Eisley Assault.

[@dumbvillage9253]

kinda like how RoR2 void dlc added void items to avoid bloating the loot pool, while also adding more toys to play with.

[@McJuggins]

Tf2 is a class base shooter due to focusing on alternate play style by allowing for different loadouts rather than adding new characters that always remain the same. Hero shooters being coined by games like overwatch have their characters remain the same at all times while having ultimate abilities, in truth they are different and should be treated as such

[@moudura2448]

GARDEN WARFARE MENTIONED 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@johnsonfromml8662]

BEST GAME IN HISTORY 🗣️🔥

[@Xode_25]

FOR REAL FOR REAL ON GOD 🔥💯🔥

[@Gillury353]

​@@johnsonfromml8662before it went down..

[@jadedninny3212]

BATTLEBORN MENTIONED

[@fishstickfailur3]

GARDEN WARFARE MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥 WHAT THE FUCK IS CONSISTENT SUPPORT FOR THE FRANCHISE🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@StriderRBLX]

Valve the type of developer to make a hero shooter before the term hero shooter even existed, make it the best one, then make a second hero shooter when everyone hates the genre and somehow it’s a success anyway

[@KenSG-jz2zn]

why does bro keep appearing in valve essays, at this point go to richter overtime and ratlobber's comment section

[@pitzo5555]

Oil up

[@deadflesh1000]

it's not a hero shooter, it's a MOBA with shooting mechanics, not at all the same thing, even if similar

[@deadflesh1000]

not a hero shooter in the same way people think of and like the ones they are tired of, just wanted to clarify

[@Finnboy-ml5jv]

That's because it's not accurate to describe deadlock as a hero shooter. It's a fully fledged MOBA with all the trademarks of the genre that's played through the lens of a shooter rather than more traditional RTS derived controls.

[@itchylol742]

i hate the term hero shooters because all the tf2 characters are either evil or insane

[@P-Bean]

Lmao yeah they're pretty far from heroic

[@nicoleuswhite2192]

Villain shooters

[@X2011racer]

Well, they slowly banded together in that unfinished comic where Mann Co was taken over by Gray Mann, and the mercenaries were fired. Fast forward to Vs. Saxton Hale, where Hale tries to take back his company, but has to fight rather convincing, off-sounding fakes of his own mercenaries before he can get to Gray Mann.

[@rang_ongaming231]

@LostTemplars I'd say they are insane, but not evil.

[@dombelly3343]

I think the hero refers less to someone who is heroic and moreso a character of note

[@Xode_25]

GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE GARDEN WARFARE I LOVE ICE PEA

[@MackBananas]

RAHHHH, I LOVE ROCK PEA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@PopsCornEdits]

@@MackBananas womp womp womp

[@AlOstosman]

PLASMA PEA RAAAAAHHH! (They massacred my boys look in the 2nd game 😭)

[@xxjoebamaxx7782]

​​@@AlOstosman smurf shooter 🗣🗣📢📢🔥🔥🔥 (Plasma pea is my favorite too)

[@dsshocktrooper7523]

Commando Pea is best peashooter

[@sarahhutchinson6325]

I would say GW2 solves a lot of the hero shooter problems. There are LOADS of characters (121) but the others don't get dampened down because instead of adding characters, there's variants, which is the main class but with a small change to completely change how you play it. If you weren't counting variants there'd only be 16 characters which is enough to make them feel special. Another aspect of variants is their mixed roles, e.g sunflower is a healer character but if you're using the metal petal version of her she goes from healer, to a supportive tank. There's mixes of agile and tank, support and assault, or melee and healer. This aspect makes there be a ton of characters but still having a lot of personality.

[@lisatroiani6119]

it feels like character variants in GW fill the same role as the loadout system in tf2

[@breakfastbrainz]

@@sarahhutchinson6325 I just want to add to that and say progression and stuff is what the Garden warfare games also do well. Leveling up variants, and playing matches to get coins to get more variants was a great feedback loop. I was gonna say "great AND honest" but idk of that's the best word for it. Just... playing to have fun and get characters to have more fun; that's it. Not for leveling up in a battlepass, or doing things you don't want to for weapon skins or other cosmetics. Even if you do play a variant you're not jiving with, you could always put them on the backburner or look up a unique quirk they had, because they're characters with mechanics, not just visual content. Skins are cool, but they aren't mechanically interesting. They don't add to the fun of the game (for me at least). That's pretty much all that I have to say, but I'll keep going because I like writing about this. Read if you want. On this thought, it gets me thinking about other things, like trophies. Some people will refuse to play, or be disappointed with a game when it doesn't have trophies. I guess that's fine, but one would think you're here to first experience and have fun with a game, then other rewards come later (skins, trophies). Playing for fun, playing for mechanics and to level up the interesting variants (and even if they weren't, it was still exciting to play one for the first time. I've been playing GW2 for a few years now and STILL have variants and while classes I haven't touched) feels more honest. TF2 (haven't played) also does this well, and who knows, maybe OW2 as well, I didn't get that into it. But what I did see (or feel) when I played it was a lack of motivation to keep playing, as in, no feedback loop like in GW2. GW2 (and TF2 with it's weapons) allow you to not only pick a class you want, but then go further and pick a option in that class for more expression and such. Something that really fits with your playstyle. Other hero shooters I find are too limiting, even with their plentiful classes. I like the overlap and goofiness that could sometimes happen, like with something like Roadie Z. "You like engineers and their ability kit? Have that but know he's melee only." That freedom, or variety, or whatever you want to call it is a complete 10/10 for me.

[@635574]

Nobody talks about those games cause PvZ is for kids (I played PvZ 2 for a week and got bored) but you might have found where concord got their idea for variants from and, no surprise, they also butchered it.

[@WinterLeafyYT]

@@lisatroiani6119 Theres different variants for a different primary, and different separate ability variants, so yes.

[@marzbee115]

Mans got no business casually dropping peak cinema on me like that 😤

[@ChesterManfred]

4:40 Patrick's expressions are so rich

[@ignitedradium1624]

I personally never liked the term "Hero Shooter", not because of the past vendetta from TF2 to OW, but because the term "Hero" is too broad of a word to accurately tell or describe the genre, while yes "Class-Base Shooter" wouldn't exactly be the most accurate when the so called "Classes" aren't just generic vessels and instead established stand alone characters, it makes the most sense at a gameplay perspective considering that the "Class" aspect is meant to represent your designated role as that character

[@marfit77]

character based shooter? because it is just different characters not different heroes

[@ignitedradium1624]

@@marfit77 well then that would imply that the focus on the genre is the fact that the game features playable characters, not so much the role or function said character provides, otherwise games like Left 4 Dead would be placed next to games like TF2, OW, Apex, or Valorant simply because L4D features 4 playable characters, despite the fact that they provide no additional abilities or attributes to distinct from each other

[@marfit77]

​@@ignitedradium1624 but hero already does just that mentioning the "hero" without talking about kit or function the hero provides or what differentiates the "hero" but I do agree that character makes them feel too generic how about we follow LoL's steps and call them Champion based shooter "champion" is far less generic and makes all of the characters sound like unique notable people without making them sound like they have to be morally just or good.

[@negative6442]

At that point you're splitting hairs tbh

[@AyyPinkShades]

I always thought of it more like how "hero" characters exist in rts and such. Not necessarily that they're "heroic" in the sense as an antonym to "villainous," but as a special unit (often a reskin of a regular unit with more health/damage/etc.) that's under your control. Out of curiosity though I just looked up some stuff and apparently Battleborn was the first to use "Hero Shooter" as a phrase, funny.

[@KingTwelveSixteen]

5:58 Great, now I want a clown-themed Hero Shooter. Thanks a lot P-Bean, I'm gonna be thinking about that for YEARS.

[@lefandepoireau768]

It already exists and it’s called concord

[@reedoken6143]

TF2 dodging every one of the cons really is a blessing

[@P-Bean]

This is true, except for maybe balance with all the items, but I agree TF2 is like Neo out there

[@Flamme-Sanabi]

@@P-Bean just take away the shield on that damn secondary, Valve.

[@engineergaming3830]

​@@P-Bean Balance is kinda impossible to achieve ngl but they could've made some weapons actually worth equipping

[@georgthesecond]

When people make whitelists of items that are allowed in order to play the game competitively (which all modern hero shooters aim for), you can't realistically think the game's balanced.

[@reedoken6143]

@@georgthesecond I feel like this should be self explanatory, but: tf2 is not a modern shooter. the primary format of tf2 is a casual 12v12 (or 16v16) no limits experience, as the game has had since launch in 2007. this is drastically different from the competitive formats which tf2 is played in. all of tf2's items cannot all be balanced in both the competitive and the casual environment. (eg the base jumper, which is still broken in a competitive environment, even with only one deploy). so the balance conversation of tf2 should probably focus on the main game mode that's been supported for 15+ years, in which case there are maybe 3? problematic items, out of a total 150+. sounds pretty balanced 😃

[@breakfastbrainz]

Weak hero-shooter logo energy: Circlular shape, abstract cymbol, one color Strong hero-shooter logo energy: Colorful, named logo, plant themed

[@Xode_25]

BRAINNNZZZ

[@Ilariobbboy]

Eh ticks two of the boxes: TENNOOOOOOO

[@mallusaih]

you called tf2 weak

[@POTAT0_FREND]

tf2 is the reason for all of them

[@dzar17]

the stupidest thing that i did read today

[@murco_]

PLANTS VS ZOMBIES GW WAS THE FIRST MODERN HERO SHOOTER‼️‼️

[@johnsonfromml8662]

AND THE BEST overwatch copied citron ball and chomper burrow PVZ GW2 BEST GAME 🔥🔥🔥

[@Arabicsilver]

Don’t forget they copied the imp class with one of the characters they have very low health but have a large ass Mech

[@EfeDursun125]

there's nothing original in overwatch, lol

[@mrmuhammedalfadhli]

1:42 "As if any if these guys are "heroic" As tf2 fan that's so true 💀🗿

[@Agent_125]

Which is why TF2 is actually called a Class Shooter, the original name of the genre before it got hijacked by copycats who wanted to create the unnecessary and stupid name of "hero" shooter, which was a terrible idea because not all characters are classified as heroes or morally good at all and is a false name that sets up unnecessary complications that do not make any logical sense.

[@aquaimperative5618]

Garden Warfare 2 is genuinely a masterpiece

[@coopark3848]

Realest shi I’ve heard today 🔥

[@themiddleman5763]

Hero Shooter Fatigue can also be attributed to the moldy gameplay loop of a 2-row character selection screen where your character plays with their power and then says a one liner which shows how polarized from a normal personality they are.

[@Iwidelyoutliveeverything]

IT'S CLASS BASED NOT HERO RRRGHHAHH

[@P-Bean]

👉😎👉

[@whoisanarnb]

Real ones say class not hero

[@ChesterManfred]

Profesional have standards

[@Thetoucanman918]

THEYRE NOT THE SAME

[@moudura2448]

​@@whoisanarnbfr

[@whoisanarnb]

Goodbye P-Bean. I’ll be back with supplies next week

[@ElectricLegend4]

“Thanks jimmy. Ground yourself on the way back”

[@maridomi8303]

"Nitra's been withdrawn, and a Supply Pod is in bound."

[@shinyrayquaza9]

Garden warfare was also peak because it stuck to a rigid cast and let you cutomize the moves rather than have 5 characters who are slight variations of each other, overwatch

[@BUMMY105]

I refuse to live in a world where TF2 is called a "Hero Shooter" and not a "War-Themed Hat Simulator". You can rip out my nuts, peel out my eyeballs, tear out my heart like a cheesy 80's love song, but you will NEVER take away my selfish spirit!

[@rupentiumal]

So it's not a class-based first-person FPS?

[@ogalog]

​@@rupentiumalNo its a gambling simulator with its own hat economy

[@rupentiumal]

@@ogalog oh, ok

[@dracvich]

9:55 Deadlock being a moba first, hero shooter second really helped with it's immense success (127k players in just a CLOSED ALPHA), makes it so players from Dota 2, SMITE and LoL can acclimate fairly quickly to the gameplay loop and climb to the high MMRs while also ensuring the OW/Apex/TF2/etc. players don't have their shooting skills go to waste and have it carry them while they learn & master the MOBA mechanics in the low MMR lobbies I've been seeing a ton of "I came from *insert popular or nostalgic moba slash hero shooter here* and found Deadlock really fun & refreshing, I'm addicted to it now" posts (or something along those lines) on twitter and reddit, it's genuinely surprising to me how popular & liked this game become after everyone (including me) hated on it when it was first leaked

[@MaxCE]

wait what, it just hit 100k yesterday when I checked, now it's 127k?

[@killer30kill]

​@@MaxCEyes it increased from 100k to 127k in a day and continues to increase

[@NykoZeraora]

Everyone thought I was crazy when I said Valve cooked with Deadlock, and now there's facts speaking for me

[@pumpkinspice5848]

@@NykoZeraora deadlock has loooong way to go but i belive in it idk if i will keep playing it cuz the skill celling is so high

[@NykoZeraora]

@@pumpkinspice5848 I guess that's mobas for ya, I haven't touched a single moba other than deadlock but I have fun, even when losing

[@Tank_Facts]

Holy shit "A Little Less Conversation (JXL Remix)" jumpscare.

[@monday7352]

i like both PVZ and TF2. They’re both so goofy it’s awesome

[@dumbvillage9253]

tbh, i can see why people are annoyed by TF2 being called a hero shooter, when it puts them into the same ballpark as some universally hated games. And just the fact that genre definition randomly changing is just annoying. actually, everyone in general is frustrated with game genres. I feel like a very major issue with Hero(i guess) shooters, is that their original vibe nearly always gets washed out, and gets turned into something else entirely. creating a weird polarizing cast with some random 80's punk, and then a cowboy, an alien pink puppy, and an evil british man all in one game.

[@P-Bean]

Agreed, but it is what it is, and if most casual players consider TF2 a Hero Shooter, pushing up your glasses and arguing (as I've seen) is just silly. I totally get the annoyance, but it just is what it is.

[@Esketh19]

@@P-Bean Got no issues with it but I've been playing TF since 1999 and have literally never seen a single player refer to it as a hero shooter. Curious to why you think the majority of players think this.

[@capnfapn]

Yeah i think the overall hero shooter model is heavily tied to the monetization scheme those games have. By having a random XD roster that attacks by pressing Q to do le epic super lazor, and if you prime players to expect to be fine with dealing with stuff like being stunned for 9 seconds, you can basically add whatever you want to the game forever.

[@LemonsGrabbed]

4:12 I wonder who’s awesome fishing cape sign that is ;)

[@P-Bean]

Awesome fishing cape sign!!!

[@noahthecrazy1632]

GARDEN WARFARE AND TF2 IN ONE VIDEO LETS GO

[@drimp4551]

Planetside2 spotted, what a good game. (also thinking of the mercs as "heroes" seems really funny to me)

[@jackbob83]

I’d actually consider the Splatoon games to fall under the umbrella of “class based” but not “hero” shooters. Yeah, there are like, 50+ unique weapons with kits attached to them, but when things are boiled down, there are 11 weapon classes, generally split among 4 play styles: Slayer, Skirmsher, Anchor, and Support. The lore for the game is made so that every player is effectively the same character, and every weapon in the game can really fall into one of three categories based on how they are fired. 1. Press shoot button, weapon shoots 2. Hold shoot button, weapon charges, release button, weapon shoots 3. Press shoot button, weapon shoots, hold shoot button, weapon does a different attack/function

[@LiquidOrcana]

Was just about to mention that yeh, it’s a really neat modern example of a more class / weapon based shoot that instead of sticking to specific characters just gives the player a ton of options on how to make their character feel unique.

[@supercyclone8342]

I came to this video because I was just talking to someone about Splatoon being "class based" or potentially its own thing lol

[@Spyachungus]

I feel like to me there is a difference between a class based shooter and a hero shooter and the main difference is that class based shooters are more focused on adding onto and increasing the depths of the classes. While hero based shooters are more focused on adding new characters and increasing the roster of heroes. Garden Warfare 2 is probably the game that has done the best job at balancing these two aspects as the way it added content was to add variants of classes to where the class itself was still fundamentally the same and still pursued the same goals as that class normally would. (Which to be fair for all classes in that is game is just to kill people as even the "support" classes like scientist and sunflower still hit like trucks), but could behave differently in how they would achieve those goals. In a way the variants system is a perfect blend of classes and heroes as its new characters go off the base of a class and the variants give variety to class in a way I haven't seen any other game try to replicate.

[@mr.tatortot6469]

In this context, the base of a class would be the body type and abilities unique to each class whilst the variant is permitted to swap out the weapon to whatever they want. i.e., the engineer's slow firing grenade launcher weapon can be changed to a rapid fire assault rifle weapon with the mechanic, which is already a weapon archetype used by the footsoldier class who's also on the zombie team.

[@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87]

If garden warfare could be considered class shooter then tf2 is even more of a class shooter because the mercs have basically no abilities and thier gameplay is dictated by thier weapon

[@thechugg4372]

Untrue, the scout runs fast and can double jump, that's a unique ability.

[@code1523]

It’s weird seeing a channel like this without a million subs, this is very polished well made content. You will blow up

[@glad16252]

The way I've always looked at it is this: Hero Shooters have a large cast of characters, pretty much universally with abilities that have cooldowns that are separate from the shooting mechanics themselves. The way devs balance these games are by rearranging their stats, cooldowns, damage, etc. as well as by adding new characters to the game, increasing the size of it's roster Class Based Shooters have a relatively smaller cast of characters, usually without personal abilities on cooldowns though not always the case. The way devs balance these games are by almost universally changing the stats of specifically the guns themselves. Buffing/nerfing damage, reload speed, etc. and by adding more weapons as time goes on. TF2 to me is a definitive Class Based Shooter, similar in other games like Battlefield or even Insurgency: Sandstorm. I'd also put The Finals in here since you have a large variety of weapons to pick for each class, as well as having the ability to change your ability. Plus I don't think they'd add new classes, unless you go like... Super Light and Super Heavy. Games like Overwatch, Valve's new Deadlock, and recent game Concord are all Hero Shooters. The characters in those games have unique abilities and weapons, though you don't change those weapons and they add/will add more characters as time goes on.

[@slimebucket642]

Dude, this video was very informative and entertaining at the same time. Gotta say I instantly subbed after, keep up the great work mate.

[@AnyBug]

1:04 GIGANTIC SHOWN RAHHH

[@strawberrana]

Titanfall 2 is a class shooter if you're referring to pilots, but a hero shooter if you're talking about titans

[@skiper7795]

Gw games nostalgia hits hard.

[@aperson2543]

9:19 one of my favorite engineers is deep rock galatics engineer. In drg,the characters don't really have unique voicelines,but there is just an insane amount of them. However,it is the engineers gameplay that I would like to talk about. The engineer does of course,have a sentry. However,in this game you can get permant upgrades by selecting one from a row at a time from up to around 5 rows. The ones I'd like to talk about from engineer are the first and last for the sentry gun. The first allowe you to choose between 1 better sentry or two of the orginal sentry (that one also gives more ammo) the two normal ones does theoretically have better dps,but it takes more time to get set up and you run out of ammo much faster. (You have a limited amount of ammo each mission,but you can refill it by gathering nitra in the caves.) The upgraded one does have better stats and much better sustain, but you will be missing the second during a swarm sometimes. Both are perfectly viable. The last lets you choose between two systems. The defender system and the uhhh I forgot the name system. The defender system locks your sentry to a limited angle,but increases its damage and range. The seeker? System greatly increases range,and whatever you ping will be targeted by your sentry,but no damage increase. Also,you have to manually build your sentry,you are a dwarf,and it's a pve game.

[@TheSuperGoober]

Garden Warfare spotted, ive been summoned

[@GlitchBoogeyman]

I hope one day Garden Warfare return with class shooter like GW 1/2 not BFN and not be cash grab like EA did

[@nikitakobzar8321]

Garden Warfare perhaps the second surviving game after TF2. How this game is still alive is beyond me.

[@edvingjervaldsaeter3659]

PALADINS GOT SOME RECOGISION, HELL YEAH!!!

[@Aloney12]

Your videos are always great to watch

[@connertomaterhater6691]

Garden Warfare 2 mentioned RAHHH!

[@alexcat6685]

2:27 GIGANTIC MENTIONED! with others I don't know, you did you do your research!

[@PizzaPasta256]

Finally, a collab between Patrick and his iconic creator Patrick! So many opportunities for tomfoolery! This was a great video. It’s clear you put a lot of research into getting it done along with great editing and animation skills. Also I’m glad people are starting to see TF2 as the hero shooter it is because those characters are way to distinct to just be classes. My own definition of classes in video games is usually when all characters feel very similar to play but have differing guns. For example, if in CSGO you exclusively used snipers, congrats you created a sniper class for yourself (ik you can buy whatever guns you want but my point is with the customization you can essentially create your own classes.)

[@MANTHELEXUS]

I think what really gives tf2 the edge besides the fact that the game isn’t bloated with different classes, is that it’s gameplay is centred around 12v12 clusterfucks while almost every other hero shooter is competitive 5v5 or 6v6.

[@Dank-Plank]

It’s hilarious how the only hero shooters that are actually worth playing have basically consisted of the exact same 3 games for about 7 years now, and every title since then has half-assed the basic formula that makes the big three work and somehow “shockingly” almost never work.

[@simplysmiley4670]

At this point you could crank those years up to 17 years overall.

[@senorapples1115]

I still consider tf2 a class based shooter because it doesn't have alot of playable characters. Also unlike hero shooters, tf2 has arsenal customization which isn't in games like overwatch. The "current" definition just feels like its suppose to put tf2 a higher pedestal than actually define what the genre really is.

[@GlossyCandle]

Something minor that indicated a shift in TF2 from classes to characters: in the Meet the Team videos, the characters are essentially nameless; contrast that with Expiration Date, and each class's name becomes the name of that character.

[@jojobizadTRASH]

Brawlstars being mentioned, even if you didn't even utter it, surprised me. Can't wait to see the engie class video.

[@LazyGuyD]

Best way someone has explained Modern Hero Shooters I've ever seen. Nice Job! (Also refrencing gw and titanfall 2 is a GOAT move 🐐)

[@godskitten49]

Here's my take on the classifications, more to do with how I see the designs of said games be created, rather than a definition created during the 'inception' of 'hero shooters' nor a retroactive definition post-hero shooters. And here we need a third classification: 'Character' shooter: *Hero shooter* is when you choose between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, with only a little similarity between them (what mechanics they use). Here the most clear standout would be Overwatch, followed closely by TF2, although you can switch the places of these two as Overwatch's hero design has diluted, as expected of a game that has 30+ of them compared to the 9 of TF2. *Character shooters* are game where you too pick between playable characters whom have several unique mechanics, but the main mechanics that the player interacts with are the same across whichever character they pick. Here the most clear standout would be Valorant: Each character has unique gameplay flair, and hence team roles, but all have to be played in the same base counter-strike way, it's not like one character can only use shotguns, and another projectile weapons etc. Abilities are add-ons onto the base shooter game. *Class shooters* are hence what's left (largely), classes rarely if ever have unique mechanics other's can't use in some shape or form, and whilst weapons and equipment (design wise analogous to 'abilities') is restricted, most of these choices are mere number differences on the same base mechanic. Battlefield is an example of this. Whilst (classes depend on which title) Assault, Engineer, Support, and Recon have different primary weapons, they are all the same mechanic. All classes have the same sidearms, the same knives, the same grenades, infact all have some sort of explosive gear slot, and whilst yes, c4, rocket launchers, and grenade launchers, are not the same mechanic, they *are* all explosives, and more importantly, are FAR less 'unique' between each other than their 'Hero' and 'Character' equivalents.

[@NinetyEight418]

Both pvz and tf2 should get more love Other games like overwatch are already beaten to almost death so..

[@WickedDoom12]

I mean on my case TF2 being called a hero shooter didn't suit right because I always considered the mercs to be morally grey, their characters' impact is that they're insane contracted killers in the game, so I wouldn't call that heroic. However the MvM mode did seem to be having quite a heroic vibe as the robots would be the threat for the players. And I didn't know how to feel about how in one of the comics the mercs also got called heroes as a small bit because I wouldn't call them that at the moment. So it's kind of a strange case where instead of being in one spot, it constantly changes to the other side. That aside, good video! I like how all of it is structured! Might consider checking out the channel some more!

[@Dragonhid3]

Lowkey impressed by this guy's animation and editing skills. Surprised he doesn't have more subs.

[@w_zizo]

such a quality vid, so glad i got recommended this

[@Golem-9]

7:33 there actually is a conversation to be had there, community created content is a large part of how games live, spread and die in public eye, no matter the advertiser friendliness of the content in question. spy tf2 doing cocaine in gmod and dva overwatch getting piped in blender are variations on a theme of what kinds of content keep games in memory

[@wortwortwort117]

Clicked for Garden Warfare Stayed for Patrick

[@InfernalNull]

3:00 i was tabbed out and merely hearing the sound of hovering over the thingies immediately made my neurons light up like a fucking rave i played way too much titanfall 2

[@Davenzoid]

The biggest diference between class-based shooter vs a hero shooter i've noticed is that there can be multiple of the same class on a team but not heroes.

[@GearDiego23]

I actually opened the video to see if there was any mention to Monday Night Combat or SMNC; and there it is.. 2:27 im happy

[@ruzgar1372]

1:41 Regarding the text I think it's more in line with how the term "main hero" doesn't mean that the main character is a hero. Hero in this case is just synonymous with character

[@CoeGr]

NOT THE ZANNY CLIP

[@the55_]

Deadlock is a MOBA through and through, every MOBA has abilities

[@bakedbuninvasion]

Giving your character characterization is not a genre defining quality it is just putting effort into your work. Soul like is also not a real genre. That's just action adventure games.

[@GODISGOODBRO]

First time watching your channel. Was not expecting that voice out of Patrick 😂

[@HiddenDragon555]

Huh, I always assumed that "Hero Shooter" meant a multiplayer FPS game where you play a unique character with a backstory, a recognisable apeparance, and so forth. Even back when Overwatch came out I thought of it as such.

[@threescoops8672]

Great video. I noticed in this video and in a few of your previous ones you mention Hunt: Showdown (now 1896). Have you ever thought of doing a video on extraction shooters and how the differ/fit in to the "Battle Royale" genre? I personally feel like they fix a lot of the complaints people have with battle royale games, but they also bring with them some of their own problems. Just an idea, great job with this video.

[@arkaua]

TF2 isn't a hero shooter... What the hell man, what's common with every single hero shooter is characters all have an unique ability or ultimate, not having that makes your game a class shooter. TF2 isn't a class shooter, and is in fact a hero shooter because... the Scout has a name and a personality? This is such an unbelievably goofy way to look at it

[@zrockey77]

Yeah, I agree, TF2 is a class shooter! Hero shooters spew out characters with slightly different stats/abilities, while class shooters have different WEAPONS for the already established cast to use.

[@tacnayn-x]

Calling TF2 a hero shooter is also wrong because You subconciously call the 9 mercs as "heroes" when they are badasses.

[@Youcican]

​@tacnayn-x they are also mercenaries lmao

[@blockwearingman]

your editing is so cool

[@Absolute_Zero7]

I think part of the problem is that Hero Shooters in regards to Balance is that they're adapted hero designs from Mobas, without adapting everything else from Mobas. For instance, Dota has consistently been one of the most balanced "hero based" multiplayer games over the last decade despite having well over 100 heroes because the game has so many interlocking systems with dynamic objectives, that the devs end up with so many tools and situations to balance heroes around. How well do they farm, secure neutrals, traverse the map, destroy towers, contest key map objectives, impact teamfights, pick off isolated targets, requirements to powerspike, parts of the game where they're the strongest, amongst many other things are all tools and levers that IceFrog can use to keep heroes interesting and viable in most games. This is of course on top of being able to give heroes interesting and unique abilities that differentiate them from the crowd. You can't really do this in a game like Overwatch or Paladins - your only objective will ever be contest a circle, or push/defend a cart, and so your options on how to modulate a hero's power level become severely limited, to the point where you have to pigeonhole them in a common class like "DPS", "Flank", "Tank", or "Support". I think it says a lot how in Dota, these terms are incredibly malleable, and most heroes can be played in several of these roles, mainly because their strengths and weaknesses often fall outside these broad categorizations.

[@deef6320]

That last point about how no one wants to learn the names of 12 new scrappy characters with every new hero shooter is why I think a hero shooter crossover game akin to smash bros would go crazy

[@guts8909]

“Is dodge still around ?” Well…

[@Kirbizard]

Disagree with TF2 being a hero shooter. You are not playing as THE Scout, you are playing as A Scout, exactly because there's nothing stopping everyone on your team playing the same class as you. That restriction on playing as a character you want to is the defining difference to me, where they prioritise making each character "unique" across matches, you can only have one "hero"

[@Danknic1234]

This is the same for something like garden warfare where islts definitely a hero shooter because of the on demand abilities the characters have but no ones stopping anyone as playing the same one as you but since you have a kit that is designed around a paticular job tf2 is definitely a class shooter like battlefield or even something like squad

[@simplysmiley4670]

By that definition, bog standard vanilla TF2, indeed wouldn't be a hero shooter. You have no restrictions and classes can overlap in their general roles with other classes by changing up weapons. Competetive TF2 tho is kind of like a hero shooter by this definition.

[@Amisora2]

oh thats one of my favorite youtubers taking the dark path and becoming a green screen microphone youtuber

[@dashelcampbell8172]

Patrick shows no fear of the Elivs estate

[@goshdarnwizard]

7:33 I one hundred percent agree with you here, but the fact that zanny only remembered the female characters was part of the joke in the video (I think)

[@FloppyOri]

7:20 yoooo Zanny is the goat

[@FurbyBeanie1]

5:19 Rip Doge,,,,

[@raptordoesyoutube107]

my favorite loosely defined hero shooter/moba game was a game called fractured space. instead of humanoid characters people could pick from, it was these giant space warships, they of course were catagoriezed as vessels that specialize in either attack, defense, or support. but were also catagorized based on weight as well. you had light weight ships, medium, and heavy vessels. but each individual ship had a specific set of abilites, or in this case weapon systems that were unique to that ship alone. one ship could harpoon other ships and pull them out of position, while another could have long range artillery canons capable of hiting enemies from afar and another could have wings of fighter and bomber craft to harrass, or pick off low health ships. you could customize the loadouts of said ships but these were mostly sidegrades and didn't stray too far from the base function of the default abilities. unfortunetly, it got shut down a while ago...i miss that game so much

[@somedorkydude6483]

5:17 Uhhh... Cheems is dead... god rest his soul.

[@HyperHexagoner]

HER NAME WAS KABOSU RAHHH

[@pyrofrek]

Valve are visionaries 🗿🙏

[@griffinbastion]

Here's the thing I've never seen a hero shooter allow players to choose the same hero more than once per team in their main game modes. Despite each class being fleshed out as a separate person, you can stack 12 exactly same scouts with exact same weapons, something that is the case in class shooters like battlefield, but unheard of in hero shooters. +As a historian there is the case of presentism, you cannot call past people or things with modern ideas because they didn't exist at the time and therefore it takes away from past events by thinking that society is the same it ever was Thus TF2 is not and never will be a hero shooter

[@Agent_125]

It's because in TF2, you're not playing as THE scout, you're playing as A scout, with different cosmetics, different weapons, maybe different hairstyles etc. Even though the base model is the same, the character is separate enough from the comic book series to be its own individual entity. Unlike the TF2 comics, ingame you never hear the classes call out other classes by their true legal birth names, only their class name, as there are multiple instances of that class all with different individual identities that make all the different "clones" unique, separate people.

[@griffinbastion]

@@Agent_125 Aye, best example of this is when a spy says "that spy is an enemy"

[@zaphodmartibrox]

a couple things first, your Patrick animation is honestly rather jarring. It's weird seeing him moving around so... smoothly? IDK. Maybe looking into how FUNKe animated his character for some inspiration on how to improve it. Also, 7:19-7:33 is the funniest shit I've seen today. Truly Overwatch's greatest cultural impact is in the... "art" that it has inspired. EDIT: a comment on hero shooter having balance/content issues. There is a root cause reason that the balance is an issue in the first place is that all hero shooters made today are made explicitly to be competitive. Balance becomes a major issue because winning is the ultimate end goal, so objectively weaker heroes will not be play due to them being disadvantaged. TF2, however, does not have this problem because is was instead designed explicitly as a casual shooter, so some classes (medic, demo, soldier) are objectively more powerful that others (spy, engi, sniper). This "unbalance" of power thus makes balance easier since it was never meant to be "balanced" in the first place. Also, the classes having their own weapons makes adding game content easier. A different weapon variant or type can radically change a class's game experience!

[@ShockedTaiLung]

that intro scared me

[@Kvailys88]

Naaaaah, that's a sub for you my mine, and I'm 1 minute into the first video I'm seeing from ya

[@Sizzyl]

good video rick

[@stevelucky7579]

Perhaps building down with a core team, works better than building out. If need be, you can always do the alternate sex method, where you design the opposite sex for each character. To where they don’t have to be the same character, just a different character doing the same job with the same weapons that you can put many of the same cosmetics on for that class. Maybe I just like the idea of valve implementing the female Merc designs for each class to flesh out the world a bit in game. Regardless, I still think working on a core class and building down each of the core you set up is probably a good idea for shooters. You tweak the weapon and it’s proficiencies/abilities to the charter’s role/abilities, rather than tweaking all characters for the one weapon or the one weapon for all the characters. The medigun is only applied to a single character, the types of mediugun and their abilities are limited or excel only based on one character. The spy’s knifes are very powerful but the draw back of it is the spy’s speed and reach with the attack. Which plays off his ability of deception to get close and make up for not getting mowed down. The player has several methods of chance to understand if it is a spy or not, so it doesn’t feel cheap if the spy stabs you. Then you have the multi class items, such as some of the shot guns. What works well with the shot gun is that it’s only a primary on the class that could use it the most between the 3, the engineer. For the other two classes Heavy and Soldier, they have different primaries which are better. They are more powerful and long range. They don’t really use or have a need for the shotgun. Some people still use it, such as soldiers who may not want the splash damage that could end them with close enemies, or Heavies who may be slowed down or run out of ammo for their mini gun. For engineer, who based on his abilities usually fights in a closer range, the shot gun is the perfect weapon. While the scout uses a different form of shot gun, those are based around his speed and mobility. But I digress, hopefully that was enough to convey my idea across.

[@noodlesg7442]

i saw jessie lesss go we up in this WE UP IN THIS

[@MafiosiBob]

Yo, I fucking love Bignic! I remember hearing some bignic music in letterkenny and I was like holy shit

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

I'm waiting for 1996 Patrick

[@thaariqbinaziz2821]

9:19 i cant wait to see the engineer class video!

[@le_boy3994]

Great video, if it looks like Funk then it means it's very good

[@dangerousdpad9079]

WHAT PLANETSIDE 2 MENTIONED 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@jeidustry]

Poor zanny outed himself on 4K HD ultrawide

[@ballendorf]

I mean, let's be real, he didn't out himself, he just admitted what everyone else is too afraid to admit...

[@doctoroktoberfest7840]

Gardens warfare 1-2 and tf2 are the best shooters I’ve played, there colourful and fun (well except for some parts) compared to what we have now

[@tropicalkitsune5131]

To me, a hero shooter is mainly defined by the customization, namely the lack thereof, and is one end of a sliding scale with normal shooters(COD) on the other end and class based shooters in the middle(battlefield).

[@sonysdad4709]

Garden warfare 2 is easily one of the best games of all time

[@PootisBirdTF2]

can you make a conga line in GW2?

[@mikadeksjur653]

thats just fact. really outstanding game, coming back to life too. EA is slowly seeing that this game outlives their every single modern day crap, playerbase somehow is bouncing back up on steam, true blessing.

[@sonysdad4709]

@@mikadeksjur653 I wish it had a large thriving playerbase since I only owned it on console but no longer have mine and didn’t rebuy it and it would be hard to convince friends to buy it for the same reason

[@mikadeksjur653]

@@sonysdad4709 ye i convinced one but he doesnt wanna play anymore bcs he doesnt want to grind computer scientist. on consol grinding all legendaries as kid took me year. nowdays we cant afford that. we could afford buying tho and i even bought toxic brainz. but sadly u cant buy computer scientist even tho he would buy him instantly if he could.

[@machineman8920]

Doge is unfortunately no longer around

[@trevorkun25]

hero shooter = games where the are heroes with superwores who shoot.

[@Zephal0]

i think you can distinguish between class and hero shooter Classes are characters you can play and customise their playstyle with a Loadout like different primaries, secondaries or abilities Team Fortress 2 and Titan fall 2 are examples of this The Heavy can pick the brass beast and sandwich rather than a his regular minigun and shotgun The pilot from Titan fall 2 choose between 7 Titans and tons of pilot weapons Hero shooters let you play a Set Character with set abilities: Reaper has his shotguns, wraith form, a teleport and his ultimate and can't change any part of his Hero Deadlock has Seven and he only has 4 abilities, Lightning ball, Static Charge, Power Surge and Storm cloud Deadlock has a shop but i don't think that counts there are no new abilities or weapons just new stats Deadlock would count as a hero shooter (for the moment but it could change in future)

[@vulpex4105]

If the gunplay is defined and shaped by the heroes themselves and the gameplay vastly varies based on the hero, its a hero shooter. TF2, OW, Paladins ETC are all playing distinctly different depends on the class/hero you selected. History doesnt matter, language changes to fit the needs of its users. Since the definition is barely 10 years old its too soon to be particular about it. Accept that TF2 is a hero shooter even if it wasnt called that way initially. If the gunplay is defined by the gun/kit you are using, its a class shooter, or just a shooter with classes, depending on how distinct the classes are. Apex you can play as whomever but if you pick up a rifle it plays exacly the same no matter who you picked. Battlefield games have classes but in the end of the day they all feel the same and are not inherently distinct. Most shooters fall here into this category. Valorant too, is a class-based shooter. In the end of the day you shoot down things the same way with any of the heroes there.