The Morality of GFE and BFE

The community is divided on their stance of BFE/GFE. With some saying it is wrong, with the other saying it is just content. In this video, we explore what makes it wrong and what makes it acceptable
Like and subscribe for more content! It really helps a lot. This channel's purpose is to archive important moments, history, and cultures in the VTubing industry. These include influential figures, memes, milestones, decisions, and trends. Basically, I'm a historian but for VTubers. If you think I missed something, drop a comment!
Edited by: Calamity
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[@DepressedNousagi]

I sacrificed my dignity for the last part especially. I fully expect to be worshipped for my bravery and be tossed a shit ton of money

[@utopes]

You know I had to skip to the end to see this 👁👁 Good god....

[@Kanitoxx]

Bruh, that last bit hit like a truck hahahaha good bit

[@himikotoga3]

LMAOOOOO GOING FROM "touch grass and try to be normal" TO "be a good girl/boy" THAT JUMBSCARED ME

[@tazwar5324]

Almost vomited

[@slavemi3018]

but hey! I think you're the niche this Vtuber world wanted! a dual GFE/BFE experience! A bisexual experience!! =D

[@RamArt9091]

I was watching the history of this old fictional character, Betty Crocker. She used to have her own radio show where, obviously, there was a lady playing her. It amused me how even back then she would get letters of guys asking to marry her. Even though her show was aimed towards women, she amassed a male following to the point a section about giving advice to the boys became a thing. She was way ahead of her time. Gold Medal should bring back Betty Crocker as a V tuber.

[@jemroko7887]

That sounds a bit terrifying honestly

[@GMM5Art]

Didnt know about this

[@ChaldeaWarmaster]

Tasting History was it?

[@sgttater2313]

link?

[@ChaldeaWarmaster]

@@sgttater2313 look up Betty Crocker upside down cake from tasting history

[@araaraaura1887]

I've always thought Rushia is unique in that she may be the only GFE streamer that seems to be just as much caught up in the toxic parasocial behavior as her viewers.

[@lionelk.y7233]

I feel like Rushia rn is swimming in miscommunications from everywhere What's her goal? What's her plan? We dunno and we'll never know

[@mikr0nakki36]

@hidetakamiyazaki1825 I get your point, really, but it seems a lot depends on the viewers. IF they are capable of holding back the toxicity then it wouldn't be toxic, but are these people actually able to hold back? I don't think so, if they would be, they wouldn't be so goddamn toxic towards others outside of this community or even inside this community, and I'm not only talking about Rushia's fans but Vtuber community as a whole. It's true though, that the fans are basically the only ones to make this toxic, but knowing that, is feeding the toxicity by not doing anything about the needy parasocial people's behaviour/not toning down the whole GFE/BFE toxic as well? Idk.

[@lop90ful1]

It's not as rare as you think

[@KING-lw8nv]

I wanna see what happens when people realized gura,mumei,fubuki,fauna,kronii,chloe,sora (married, all have boyfriends and are in a relationship since they all have different fanbase I didnt mention towa,miko,shion,laplus,lui since the shadow goverment havent confirmed if they’re in a relationship and all are just baseless accusation of deep archivers from a certain website with just one photo from their past persona twitter

[@HennyESP]

Ah, How the turntables.

[@cryonova108]

You enjoy watching Uruha Rushia/ Mikeneko for the GFE I enjoy watching her for her game rage We are not the same😂

[@pepperjackttv]

That was how I found her in the first place lol. I always interpreted her flirtiness as a joke personally

[@alfredong6850]

Gremlin rock EVA-1 screams are hard to emulate lmao. Her screams are one-of-a-kind trademarks

[@jasonebi7308]

wait, Rushia is a GFE? Isnt she a scream and pettan tease channel?

[@mateomoreno331]

@@jasonebi7308 you monster... im jk xD

[@leeen9904]

​@@pepperjackttvsame

[@Laertes00]

This whole time I thought GFE stood for Get Fired Experience.

[@wangusbeef86]

POV your boss fires you ASMR stream would honestly be hilarious

[@rico653caines3]

Read it as "Get Fried". I will now be using that line especially if I win in fighting games. (In a sportsmanship way of course)

[@ManWithFace]

its the most NEETish behavior around so its not far off

[@onyxblack1167]

😂😂😂

[@BlaZay]

Welcome to KFP.

[@GaryRocksGaming]

I like and love every Hololive member, I watch them once in awhile but I'm not there all the time for a relation or anything, I just enjoy watching them having fun time. BROKE GANG!!!!!

[@gerdanbombales]

This is why I'm proud to be broke gang since I cant simp in the first place so I cant become a parasocial creep

[@revolvingworld2676]

There are a few memberships I want to join tho so im glad im not broke gang

[@Bam_Bizzler]

They are just like a cast on a sit com. Nothing more nothing less. Kronii is ross from friends

[@rice_frying_shrimp]

clip channel gang!

[@MildlyOCD]

Parasocialism is a balance that comes with being a public figure; it's neither good nor bad. If you don't have any of it, you don't have an audience; too much of it, & you have an obsessive audience. GFE/BFE walks that line incredibly closely because it basically plays with what unicorns look for. & That's what makes it the most dangerous, & thus requires you to take extra precautions. Or just don't do it at all.

[@kevinnio]

There's just too much money to be made there. Some people can't just resist the temptation, you know?

[@akira8393]

for vtubers, they lack braincells to the point they dont give a damn about risks. its all for that fame and money baby

[@leradmuiel7634]

People that can’t separate Real Life from Fiction are cringe.

[@shwiiiiies4704]

they need hslp

[@monster25man]

I'm down bad hard for Nerissa rn but I know not to overstep any boundaries she's still a real person behind that vtuber model and I will not flip out over her collabing with any of the holostars if she chooses to I know better than this and so should these toxic fans

[@pakxenon]

@@monster25man Nerissa rizzing up males (in a professional manner of course) in collabs will be content gold, up to her if she decides to do it.

[@LazyYui]

@@monster25man hey bro you dropped this 👑

[@theboss1829]

One of the only times I agree with someone saying cringe

[@side7oldtype298]

"Your feelings for him/her, aren't real." "THEY ARE REAL TO ME!!!!"

[@technomancermagus8357]

Moderation in everything is the key. I mean, I don't consider strippers immoral when they pretend to like you to get you to tip better. As with most things, it's up to the buyer not to be insane. As for Unicorns, remember that in the lore if their "maiden" had sex, they would kill her.

[@akira8393]

i never understand how there's a moderation in strippers, its just outright bad but hey whatever makes you happy i guess

[@Bam_Bizzler]

​@akira8393 its all bad but its what makes the bucks

[@technomancermagus8357]

@@Bam_Bizzler By what standard are you calling it bad?

[@Dice-Z]

@@akira8393 It's literally not bad, but hey whatever makes you happy i guess. As long as everyone is consenting and no one is being harmed, there is no wrong done. The basis for something being wrong is whether it hurts someone or not (gets more complex with the finer details but it comes down to that), and CERTAINLY NOT whether it pleases whatever arbitrary and purely subjective sense of decency/cleanliness you made up in your head. Disliking something is not what makes it wrong.

[@kjj26k]

​@@akira8393 It's fine to dislike sex as a business, but please never EVER vote for someone who would legislate against it, as that is something only someone who wants to control what women cannot do with their own bodies would do. So it is never about protection.

[@KING-lw8nv]

Pandering to the most toxic side of the community will result to a more toxic reaction from that community

[@kevinnio]

You called them most toxic, but they're also the most obsessive, thus the ones more likely to spent lots of money on the streamer.

[@akira8393]

yeah tell that to disney pandering the worst people ever.

[@justlooking070]

​@@kevinnioits not a secret that its the most profitable, but is it sustainable tho?

[@nerobiblios4086]

Basically yeah, pandering to these kinds of fans will ultimately lead to negative effects, eventually. Weather those effects are on the fans themselves or you the vtuber remains to be seen, but at least 1 person is not going to be completely ok afterwards.

[@gamrage]

That's not initially what's on their minds. They likely think: more fans = more money

[@fatcoyote2]

Rushia is the case that everyone is going to come back to regarding this, since she is without a doubt the most successful, most flamboyant, and most off-putting case of weaponized fandom in the Vtuber community. She had the number one donated Vtuber ever, then crashed and burned as a result of it. She then activated her previous persona, then put it in hiatus for a third persona, ran both of them simultaneously, basically put the third one on hiatus to focus on her original, then crashed and burned AGAIN with it for the EXACT SAME REASON she did so in her most famous iteration. She keeps walking the edge, then falling off of it.

[@akira8393]

i mean how much beatings does it take for a woman to learn her consequences of her own actions? im placing bets up till she gets to the pron industry at this point

[@banlungx001]

Flame on!!!

[@hohouin_kyouma]

​@@banlungx001bro, i feel like ive heard that from somewhere before but cant remember where

[@kjj26k]

​@@hohouin_kyouma It's the catchphrase of Marvel character The Human Torch from the Fantastic Four stories. Maybe that?

[@tax1283]

I STARTED CHOKING AT THAT ENDING THAT WAS SO GOOD🎉🎉

[@NagaManga]

GFE/BFE is a business that doesn’t bother me as long as the streamer applies common sense and rules for themselves. Becoming a GFE/BFE streamer is like becoming an idol, your audience is going to have expectations and you’ll have to play along and respect those unspoken rules. It honestly amazes me when the GFE/BFE streamer thinks that can have their cake and eat it too without any consequences. Granted, what happened with Rushia was an accident that if she handled better, she’d still be in Hololive. Let me put it this way: if you’re a GFE/BFE streamer and you desperately what to find real love, either graduate or change your content style and wait till your gachikois don’t dominate your fanbase. You can’t have both in this industry, and you need to understand that. While at the end of the day I’m never gonna fault this kind of streamer for wanting to find love and tryna play the system, it’s never worth getting caught.

[@kevinnio]

Exactly. Vtubers are free to do whatever type of content they want, but is not reasonable to expect gachikois (who may as well be called whales based on the amount of money they spend in their oshis) to take it well when their anime GF turns out to be in an actual relationship. They won't go "you go girl, take even more of my money", you know.

[@sys3248]

Yeah this. On the morality wise they're still snake though.

[@ManWithFace]

I think the burden of common sense lies far more on those that partake in that type of content. The content creator defines the experience, not the audience. I agree that a streamer should know what they're getting into, but what is not often acknowledged is they have a right to set expectations and boundaries. No matter how attached you are to a content creator they are putting far, FAR more effort into this than you ever will, and that grants them the final say. your only right as a viewer is to watch and enjoy, or don't and leave for greener pastures. I'll admit that it's not monetarily sound to not play closely by idol rules, but tbh that should be the only real consequence, the streamer does not deserve further idiocy from ones lashing out at them as a result of unicorns being butthurt by their personal internal and lofty expectations not being met.

[@crowe6961]

@@ManWithFace A bunch of the GFE/BFE types are terrible at setting boundaries, fail to do so, suffer the very foreseeable consequences when they break the unwritten rules that the whole community knows about, and then falsely claim ignorance about it. Content creators need to be looking at Shiori Novella for inspiration on this front - she has managed to strike a balance because she knows her audience and how to play them all too well.

[@akira8393]

what? you mean that vtubers should actually be responsible for being really stupid? no shit

[@Hsecrpntr]

I vote to change the term of unicorn to barnacles

[@ZeroXSEED]

Unicorn lore is they literally murder non-virgins.

[@akira8393]

well it can be change if you cultivated it

[@maunabesanika]

May i ask where to sign?

[@GafferPerkele]

"Look [fan_name] ropes"

[@-someguywhoisadegeneratefo1487]

I have only heard the term unicorn today and I would also like it to be barnacles.

[@oomay1925]

I feel like using Vox and Rushia as case studies for the gfe/bfe is more interesting as of late because Rushia, or Mikeneko/Nazuna, still triples down in providing that type of content and is most likely going to fall into the same trap because of it, to the detriment of her own mental health. Meanwhile Vox has been transitioning out of bfe streams and has been a lot more vocal about distancing himself from catering to the bfe almost entirely, in order to take care of himself and ultimately create a healthier community that he can feel comfortable around.

[@akira8393]

i dunno, i dont really see it that much from vox but hey maybe time will tell

[@oomay1925]

@Okabe_Rintaro I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. I don't wanna villainze her but she does seem to have destructive habits. Hope she gets the proper help and support she needs.

[@FantasiephilosophRaku]

​​​@@oomay1925Or those are the effects of antis and holofans obsessive cyberbullying against her for over a year, I dont think it doesnt have much to do with her but with them. That she didnt kill herself after the horror that happened (in and after her termination) to her is a miracle but you cant expect her not to be broken after that, no help in the world will heal that damage done to her.

[@rillzy9637]

@@FantasiephilosophRakuthat may be some of it and I don’t doubt she was bullied by these so called fans, but part of it is on her to take care of herself as it pertains to her decisions as well as her mental health. She is neither the villain nor the victim

[@FantasiephilosophRaku]

@@rillzy9637 Thats what I meant, its not her fans but third party people obsessivly cyberbullying her. It wasnt just „some”, the lengths people went and still are going to harass her are insane. She literally victim to those people, she literally kept a low profile for months and the second she debuted her new model she got immediately attacked over it. Its not her decisions its those people being jerks. Nobody can take that amount of hate and come of unscathed, saying its on her is straight victim blaming, those people should simply leave her alone.

[@mero_mero]

I think the "High Risk, High Return" slogan is really fit to describe job as GFE/BFE streamer. Being one brings you great rewards & benefits, but it also accompanied with huge risk and danger

[@SleepyVesties]

For me personally watching vtuber is like going to the host/hostess club or a maid cafe. It's some sort of a service and both parties needs to respect their own boundaries. *edit : I didn't expect that ending wtf DN😂

[@akira8393]

and even then some would propose right here and there. tell me how vtubers is not worse than this

[@NonJohns]

AHAHA the warning did not prepare me at all

[@HennyESP]

Can't tell if this video aged like wine or a microwaved dog turd.

[@nufh]

BFE is similar to the Host Club in Japan, where many old ladies spend their money to young male hosts.

[@derpymule7977]

Yeah this is why Shondo is great, she knows exactly where all the traps and minefields are and regularly jumps directly into them for the bit. It scares off both normal people and overly parasocial people, so her community somehow manages to be completely unhinged without any of the normal issues that come with that.

[@BlaZay]

Shondo is definitely cute and funny, but the people she scares off are precisely those that make GFE so lucrative to begin with. Subverting it makes it much safer for her, but it requires a vastly different personality and set of skills, and let's be real: the money is half of the appeal for most content creators that indulge in it. As such, I don't think the two are really comparable.

[@KaitouKiara422]

Nice vid, I would say it really is up to the streamers' putting out boundaries and calling out those who have taken too far. Like Vox for example, I have a huge respect for him when he called out the freaks who was harassing reimu bcoz they feel "disturbed". But for Rushia, I don't really like how she doubles down and not learnt the lesson of not setting up boundaries after her termination. I hope she'll recover and get rid of the toxic gachis in her fandom, even if its 90% of her audience

[@akira8393]

vox my guy literally does not change. at the very least he knows that shit is bad right now for him. though saying it while doing nothing aint going nowhere

[@KaitouKiara422]

@@akira8393 I can't say for sure since I haven't watch vox in a while but at the very least vox had take first step of setting up boundaries during the reimu incident. The rest is up to him

[@akira8393]

@@KaitouKiara422 i would agree but i still see him doing some of it. And im being generous to think that he'sever gonna change at all

[@Alexis-vv5bk]

Something I noticed male vtubers have just as much as unicorns - is fujoshi. There are people who get angry at a male Vtuber when they interact even with other male Vtubers, not just girls, because they ship them with one of their friends. Mysta even brought it up once. This isn't even exclusive to Vtubing. I've seen kind of behavior with fictional character ship for decades.

[@crowe6961]

How have they managed to sink even lower than unhinged men? That's just impressively bad behavior.

[@akira8393]

@@crowe6961 i mean you cant have just two people being friends nowadays. if there's two people that are genuine close, they are fucking. that's the rule of the rainbow mafia have done

[@Dice-Z]

Oh brother, you don't even need to be fictional or in the entertainement industry for fujoshis to start shipping you with your male friends or male members of your family even if you hate the latter, trust me i'd fucking know.

[@lqfr8813]

this is why i love fauna, she drew a clear line to fans that we are not her actual friend, being realistic

[@SCP-1762-BOL]

The Needy Streamer Overload is the cherry for this video

[@akira8393]

i think its pretty much based of it i feel

[@saltedonion]

Another day of thanking God for making me a sane person 🛐

[@Hannya7]

fr

[@kjj26k]

Honestly. And I probably still would have finished childhood a psycho if not for constantly being hit with the fallout of very very unwell and unchecked men.

[@HHYStar]

Damn, that last Depressed Nousagi BFE got me actin' up

[@Tk-qm8ud]

including clips of Taylor Swift in your videos has made me realize that as a vtuber fan and a swiftie I am the worst breed of parasocial…..

[@abdulcholik7789]

Atleast tailor swift still can make a relationship with anyone, while vtuber hardcore gfe/bfe....

[@joemommaoramma7090]

i feel that the hard part is whether you think feeding escapisim is right or wrong. also the closing bit was really fucking funny

[@akira8393]

yes. because its hard to tell if the fans are going batshit crazy

[@dannyd.9932]

Just my two cents on it: I think GFE/BFE can be done in a safe way but finding that middle ground is almost impossible. FallenShadow/Shondo does it well because it’s so unhinged it’s obviously a LARP. Nenechi does it well because she’s so silly with it that it’s obviously a LARP. I won’t mention the ones who are toxic because we all most likely know who those talents and fandoms are already.

[@cpttankerjoe]

Can’t help but love Shondo and Nene

[@ayaya-]

nene somehow goes beyond and does the wife experience and yet her fans behave differently, they are chill and know that it's a joke, I don't think nene has set boundaries but the way she acts in it of itself and her delivery does it automatically, she's just a funny girl doing funny things

[@akira8393]

honestly i dunno the toxic ones that are not rushia and vox. still, i look at it the way porn is. it's just never gonna be a good way to look at it or even a middle ground. when your personality is the product. you can do it if you sell a character but vtuber is not really a character, they are personalities in the end. if you are a va that plays bfe as luffy or kirito than people can separate that because its more on the characters not the person.

[@kevinnio]

Nene's GFE is silly and fun, but will never make it rain like Russia's did. For it to work like that, streamer and fans need to get all the way into it. Sometimes the temptation is just too great.

[@akira8393]

@@kevinnio i dont really think so... nene just really smart on how to handle it.

[@tevi5082]

Depressed Nousagi's BFE is making me a unicorn.

[@tasogarerubica]

Y'kno Japan has been using this method of marketing a pseudo relationships and parasocial relationships for a while now. Not just with the advent of modern idol culture that started in the late 70's to early 80's but before, kinda since the edo period with Kabuki and Geishas. Sure you can regard geisha as sex wrking but more so their role were closer to an escort who you pay to socialize. While Kabuki actors were split into three categories of "Ichimaime", "Nimaime", and "Sanmaime'. "Ichimaime" were the actors who has the nost experience in acting, " Sanmaime" are the ones who played the more commical roles and " Nimaime" who had the pretty face. There were ton of merchandise being made and sold of these actors and the ones that sold the most was the pretty boy who smittened the hearts of girls and boys alike. Now is this style of marketing and business kinda cucked? Yeah, it's quite immorale but it does rake in the cash and money does make the world go round.

[@mouseii88]

Yeah, like the US don't sell baseball card in the 50s.

[@Arenuphis]

Also famous artists many decades ago advertising how if you pay and call this specific number, you'll get a chance talk to them, or at least send them a message There's been plenty of problems with parasociality in the west for many decades as well

[@Eibarwoman]

@@mouseii88 In the US, it'd be the pitchers with the lowest ERAs and the batters with the highest batting averages or home run totals who often had the most valuable cards. Particularly their rookie cards.

[@mouseii88]

@@Eibarwoman Yeah, I mean these are very cool merch, I don't see why when it translate to Kabuki actors' merch, and now entertainer's merch, it become immoral for company to do so.

[@Bam_Bizzler]

Still confuses me how rent a girlfriend is unironicly a thing in japan

[@wqi09]

Streamer Wise: You need to understand if you want to become GFE/BFE Streamer. In compensation for having massive, loyal, & royal fanbase; you need to stay away from your real life relationship too or play it very carefully. You can't have both. GFE/BFE Wise: In the end of the day, your idol/vtuber is just the same as you, human as fragile as you are. If you think you suck and toxic enough that everybody said, your idols behind the avatar ain't different than you. So be prepared that you'll get hurt one day, because they can lie, they can act, and it's just a matter of profession. For Regular Fans Like Me: When you ready to support someone, you must also be ready of losing them. Makes boundary to what separates this from that, virtual from real life, expectation fron reality. It's about business and entertainment.

[@LumemDH]

Well said. One needs to recognize that, even if you become attached to a vtuber(no matter what degree and type of attachment), you must also be ready to be hurt by and lose them eventually. They are human like us, with lives of their own; and just like any other irl relationship, you might get hurt in the long run for any reason. I know that its not easy not to get attached when they keep telling you 'I love you' or 'I'll cut your pp and get you pregnant', but one must see this attachment as a mirror for themselves and ask 'do i need to improve my life and touch grass or is this really alright?' because at the end of the day, the pidgeon in your hands(irl relationships where you can actually touch others) is much more valuable than the two pigeons in the bush(a relationship where you can't touch the other party).

[@gorrgumbusenjoyer]

Loyal is a bit of a stretch maybe obssessive and possessive is what most of these ppl are

[@akira8393]

for a vtuber is like being a spiderman, you cant have it both ways

[@NemesisUmbral]

This is true with your third statement. I remember being invested into Kronii when she started. However, I knew this feeling of attachment was something that must be broken away, so after a year(?) in her membership, I stopped watching her. This doesn’t mean I don’t support or dislike her, this was just for my mental state. Of course, I still have this pf, but that’s because I have been too lazy to change it. Even to this day.

[@Dice-Z]

No. You absolutely can have both GFE/BFE content and a relationship. In fact, no one has the right to tell you you can't have a relationship no matter who you are, ever, period. Thinking otherwise is utterly unrealistic thinking.

[@lawrencesison5805]

The ending is honestly so fucking good I applaud the effort

[@baronsamedi5741]

Eh, one must remember, it's fine to be a fan. But remember that's what you are at the end of the day, a fan, just another line of text in her/his chat that donates money and talks. Alot of people forget that behind every Vtuber, there is a real person who doesn't exist exclusively just to cater to you. And every Vtuber sees their fans as the same, someone somewhere else on the other side of the world, viewing their content from a computer screen or a phone screen. At the end of the day no matter how much you talk to them or know them, we're all just strangers to one another. A boundary must be maintained and that line must never be crossed.

[@Coffee_paradox]

Thats the problem. The entire business model of a vtuber mostly lies in pander that parasocial relationship, and to convince you somehow that you should pay them money. The more parasocial you are (i.e. the deeper you are in the rabbit hole), the more you are going to pay them, and thats how they make money. There are much much cheaper entertainment out there, and a sane person would spend their money much more causiously unless they are so rich that they can afford to not care about rent and other daily expenditure, not care about savings, to such a degree that you would pay hundreds of dollars just to make vtubers feel good.

[@ufsman]

Giving us a taste lol thanks for another great video keep up the great work.

[@ferntheinkling]

Really long story incoming 😭 I used to be parasocial for Hex Haywire, but I knew he wasn’t actually my boyfriend and was just a streamer in the back of my mind the whole time. I was going through a really difficult time in my life around the time of his debut, and I found his voice and presence very comforting. His random s3xual jokes got boring and repetitive to me and I eventually stopped watching him, but I’ll never forget that time in my life. Was I cringe? Hell yeah man. I had him as my pfp on discord and everything. But I could go home from a long day of school so stressed I couldn’t sleep, turn on his asmr (he only had one or two at the time and they weren’t spicy like his newer ones. The one I liked to watch was very wholesome and cute) and I would literally cry of happiness from his familiar comforting words. Those moments at night listening to his asmr were probably the happiest moments I had during that time. I really needed someone there for me, and his content was there for me. Cringe? Yes. But if it’s either refusing to sleep without watching one of his vods or stay up all night crying and possibly hurting myself further in some way I’d much rather be parasocial. I didn’t come to his streams very often, and mostly watched his vods. I wanted to watch them all (yes I was very parasocial) and because of this I ended up becoming months behind. I have however had a few interactions (if you can call them that?) with him when he hearted my comment or read my chat messages a few times when I actually made it to a live. There was a time where I genuinely wanted him to notice me but I think it could have simply been because I didn’t feel like I fit in with his chat (I have yet to find a chat I feel like I belong in to this day) and I wanted some sort of validation that I belonged there. Like I said, I stopped watching him because it got a bit repetitive. He always insisted people stop sending him supas and while I found it as cute at first it got annoying as hell cause he’d delay playing the game just to talk to chat (and I was vod gang). Also I have neglected to mention that I have adhd. Because of this I have a tendency to hyperfixate on varies things, sometimes people, and become completely focused on them for like a month and then suddenly just not care anymore. Hex was just one of many hyperfixations I’ve had, but that’s the only time I’ve ever been parasocial for a streamer. I had no problem with Hex interacting with girls. I remember being sad when Zaion was forced to graduate not because I was a fan of hers but because I loved her dynamic with Hex (they are like siblings, it was adorable). Some people shipped him and Melo and I only disliked the ship cause shipping real people is weird. I thought his interactions with her were really cute and funny. Hex got a lot of problems very early and had multiple streams where he began by reminding us that “I am not your boyfriend. I am not your dad. I am not a real therapist. If you need a therapist please seek actual help. Etc.” I was still new to the vtuber community at the time and didn’t know about these toxic parasocial people. Their presence really surprised me. I saw a lot of comments on the vtuber news channels I watched that kinda blamed Hex for catering to this audience, and especially for having the lore he did where he was a therapist. I felt bad cause I’d been pretending (completely consciously) he was my boyfriend and my therapist. The difference is I didn’t send him pictures of sh on Twitter and ask him to fix me. The difference is I didn’t cause him or even myself any harm at all. My point in all this? I’ve experienced being parasocial. I know many parasocial people aren’t toxic, even if they’re as cringe as I was. But the truth is you’re gonna attract the wrong kind of people as well, so it’s really difficult. It’s a dangerous game.

[@akira8393]

well.. you did give me the warning that the story was gonna be long. im really sorry for what you dealt with, but the stories im seeing here is like what most people in their early stage of parasocials have been through. that's just a good thing is all im saying and that you arent going to the deep end of it yet. From the story being told here, im noticing that you have issues and being that hex (with his kind of content) you are being hooked to, tells me that it wasnt really helping your problems really. usually the most good way people would look at the parasocial relationships is admiration look in being better. your obssession is more likely on coping the sadness rather than dealing with it. using it is good to let out some steam from time to time but too much is really just making you very dependent on him emotionally The thing is that i dont think people know bout parasocial relationships is that the bad part is not what i have issues with but rather the extreme obsession is the issue here. the extreme obsession can make any individual bad whether that person is good or bad. being a vtuber is hard because its really just by default at this point that people see them in this idol like thing much because of how hololive and nijisanji reshaped our views on vtubers.

[@ferntheinkling]

@@akira8393 yeah. I can seem obsessive because of my adhd, the difference is it never lasts very long. This was my first parasocial relationship with a vtuber, but not my first by any means. I have a very long list of characters I have considered my friend/boyfriend/girlfriend in the past. The thing about me is I’m very self aware and I always know what’s going on. I think it’s possible to have a parasocial relationship without become obsessive and harmful to the vtuber. Parasocial relationships in themselves are not bad, as was said at the beginning of the video. The bad thing is when people become obsessive and can’t discern fiction from reality. Once again my actions look obsessive but there’s a difference between obsession and hyperfixation. It was definitely a coping mechanism, and a very cringe one at that, but I don’t think it was keeping me from dealing with my sadness in any way. I was really burnt out and taking time for myself to watch his vods at night helped me feel like I wasn’t just doing school all the time. I got over it all after a few months and found another hyperfixation. I look back at it and cringe just like I do with many of my old hyperfixations. I’m sorry for the people that had to put up with me during that time, but honestly I’m not sorry it happened because it gave me a better look at myself and the vtuber community in general. Nowadays my oshis are people I find funny, not people I find attractive. I just kinda lost interest in BFE/GFE content from vtubers after that.

[@akira8393]

@@ferntheinkling not really, in no matter how people say it. parasocial is always bad. the thing that i think when it comes to parasocial is that it's always never a good thing to be had, but you are a human and parasocial is a part of that negative human traits. its normal for anyone to have it but i dont call having it is like a good thing. i dont know the other hyperfixation helps you developed or kept the same but i hope it at least a healthier one than the vtubers

[@ferntheinkling]

@@akira8393 no, they’re not always bad. People used the term to label obsessive and harmful parasocial people, but that’s not the full meaning of the word. I’m parasocial with my current oshis not because I’m obsessed with them and in love with them (I’m neither) but because I care about them as people and love their content and support them as a creator. If you have any connection at all to a liver, a fictional character, a content creator, an artist, an actor, etc. that’s a parasocial relationship. It’s not a bad thing, it’s completely normal. I’m not saying it’s this really good thing people should seek out, I’m saying it’s normal and everyone experiences it. Just like people can be toxic and obsessive in real relationships they can also be that way in parasocial relationships.

[@akira8393]

@@ferntheinkling it was still not good even from your own story.

[@Tiananmen1989FreeTibetHK]

In the current vtubers I know, Shiori Novella is the only one who knowingly dips her toes into the edges of boundary to Parasocial with her fans then taking her toes back, making them thirst for it while she announces to respect her choice and creating a safe wall, teasing them behind it with her whispers. Unlike Rushia which makes streams/GFE to accommodate her fans, Shiori is like the opposite which the fans accommodate for her. They can't be mad at Shiori which for me is actually very very smart (that I just noticed after watching her streams and her chat while comparing them to Rushia/Mikeneko and her chat). This channel once posted a video on how Susei is the sexiest for being not Sexy. Shiori applied this to a T. She's making her fans imagine and thirst for it while consistently teasing them without going too far. And she also plays the goth girl perfectly. I don't think this is a good example(because I can't find a good word to describe it) but its like Shiori is the "Dominatrix" on the relationship with her fans while Rushia is the opposite. Rushia's fans are "I want to fix her." Shiori's fans are "I don't want to fix her, I want her to break me." Then after finding out Shiori's PL, this made my assumption concrete that shiori fcking knows how to play this game cunningly unlike Rushia/Mikeneko and other vtubers who give GFE/BFE. Shiori Novella is a veteran

[@crowe6961]

Yeah, Shiori knows her audience too damn well and she's very intelligent. Unlike most, she can probably handle this quite competently without getting burned too badly.

[@akira8393]

i wouldnt be so sure yet. the only time i know she was about to spike was the homies kissing but thats it.

[@Tiananmen1989FreeTibetHK]

@@akira8393 if you watch her PL vids and all of her streams you will notice.

[@Tiananmen1989FreeTibetHK]

@@dzeklakovic7568 nah, at first I was actually scared and concerned that shiori is dipping into an area that she doesn't know but after finding out the forbidden knowledge of her PL, I realize that she knows to play the game very well. In fact, shiori might have been one of the first vtubers to play this dangerous game back when vtubing was still a niche(she has vt exp before even Kizuna Ai and Sora iirc)

[@crowe6961]

@@dzeklakovic7568 She is much more clever than Rushia and this is not her first rodeo.

[@psychodarling666]

ayo this vid came at the right time, i decided to marathon your videos while drawing

[@megashrimp42]

i really needed this, thank u a lot

[@IIIIStevenIIII]

I was profoundly shocked and disgusted by what happened at the end of the video, have a well-earned like.

[@JackdotC]

That ending sbit was like, the excact opposite of gf experience lol. Made my daily struggles so much worse

[@lucasmolitor1029]

Godamn, you're back! Last time I saw, you had gone through drama and stuff. Its nice to see you making content again!

[@KyuJuEX099]

Heavily reminds me of Rent-A-Girlfriend anime. Fake relationships as business.

[@darkydk1650]

Exactly

[@scotthicks1795]

I think basic etiquette is to show up on time for the live stream, hit like as soon as possible so new friends see it in their feed and join you, hang out for 60% of the time for the same reason. Maybe buy merch. Beyond that, KZbin should have something like private areas in chat to splinter off into groups for those who need a break. GFE is a time-intensive thing. Several days together, maybe. It takes a long time to find something compelling about a person close-up. I couldn't do it. I feel smothered by waitstaff on cruise ships. GFE has to be even more emotionally draining.

[@Balbaneth]

I enjoyed Rushia for her rage.

[@nop1041]

Thank you I reallly enjoy your content

[@LaterXavier-TX]

All in my subjective opinion, I think that if it is just video content, I don't really care. But streaming is where things get much worse because actual interaction is given to donated messages. That's how really bad obsessions are born and it's one with a monetary incentive to exploit it. Start looping in gf/bf merch, personalized messages and chats, and it starts becoming gross to me. I'm not going to attack anyone over it of course because thay's extremely dumb, but that's how I feel.

[@kevinnio]

I'd like to point out that's the whole point of GFE/BFE. You want fans to care so they donate and buy merch, usually at bigger rates than non-GFE fans. I mean, why are streamers involving themselves in such risky bussiness otherwise?

[@Dice-Z]

@@kevinnio Might shock you but... some people legitimately just enjoy doing it, in a non weird way.

[@tripdrakony869]

the ending.....idk how much you had to hold back the cringe but damn good job XD

[@Venom1846]

It's gambling. You come in with a plan, get the jackpot, and get out before you get hooked- before you get "the fever." This goes for the content creators and viewers.

[@kevinnio]

Yeah, basically this. It's not uncharted territory. Everybody knows what happens when you take GFE too far. Weight your options and take your chances, but remember, you made those choices yourself.

[@Artista_Frustrado]

i was planning to make a real comment about the subject, but then Handsome BF Nousagi happened & i forgot what i was gonna say

[@Artista_Frustrado]

something something XFE responsibly something something set your own boundaries from the get-go, anyway where's the full image of BF Nousagi?

[@diabloO5O189]

Depends on how they do it. Someone like Airi Viridis only really does it in 30 minute pre-recorder asmr videos which Is perfectly fine to me but ones who make it their entire character and try and convince their chat they are in love with them are the ones I think take it to far.

[@ClockworkGearhead]

It's just porn. You have sexual porn, and you have emotional porn. GFE is emotional porn. Not my place to tell people not to look at porn. Same for GFE. The morality of it should be limited to if people have a right to access the media they want.

[@luismedina5792]

lmao emotional porn

[@ClockworkGearhead]

@@luismedina5792 If you think about it, that is what it is. Not saying it's good or bad, but people watch it for a form of gratification usually reserved for relationships.

[@akira8393]

wut?

[@fredgopher1956]

True

[@Alexis-vv5bk]

I hate how that ending worked so well on me. I think I just like being praised and spoken nicely to.

[@snizhynka]

The needy streamer overload music is very fitting.

[@kovaxim]

Nice video. Good explanation. Thanks for the laugh at the end.

[@apleb7605]

Vader: Your feelings for her are not real. Starkiller: THEY ARE REAL TO ME!!!

[@TiagoTiagoT]

There could be other details that change the conclusion, but I think in principle if they do not set clear boundaries, do not present it as just roleplay etc, then they do hold some of the blame for the behavior of the deranged fans. Maybe it could be excused for early vtubers and perhaps some very new ones that weren't too familiar with the industry and such; but I find it a bit hard to believe any pro wouldn't have learned by now that being careless with such practices has the tendency of attracting and cultivating fans with unhealthy mentalities. There is no 100% foolproof approach, many people go crazy without any external triggers; but when the celebrity encourages it, then they aren't completely innocent anymore. And similarly, big agencies also share some responsibility if they do not advise their talents to avoid that, or worse when they themselves pimp out their talents without properly preparing them.

[@akira8393]

it's vtubers, most of them have issues, its a blessing if they have are actually normal people with common sense.

[@Dice-Z]

Absolutely not. They do not hold any of the blame for unhinged fans, even if it's important to set those boundaries. The blame is on the fans for being unhinged, let's stop mixing things up and lacking common sense. If you get murdered on your way to work because someone liked your face too much and you dared smiling at them, no one is gonna start saying it's your fault you didn't wear a mask. We don't start excusing psycho behaviour.

[@TiagoTiagoT]

@@Dice-Z If you poke a bear and get mauled, the fault is not entirely on the bear.

[@jemroko7887]

Thanks for the last part dude, I really needed a good laugh. But if you think you there's any money in ASMR, you should try it. It looks like you already know what to do, so I won't tell you anything you already know.

[@punch1t]

ayo nousagi that ending was kinda sus :D now i understand what you meant with that tweet

[@dettlaffvandereretein4251]

Vox and Rushia/Mikeneko/Nezuna just seem like they constantly poke the bear that is their insane fanbase that they have cultivated, I can't feel bad when they get mauled or nearly get mauled and still cozy back up to it. At some point the person has gotta take responsibility for the rocket fuel to succes they used.

[@ManWithFace]

Me when im firebombed for talking to my dad (i poked the bear by talking to a male while also selling online affection as a commodity)

[@akira8393]

the question is, how many beatings does it take for vtubers to learn? im gonna bet its probably none because they are more dumb than a brick.

[@kulonstep69]

Meanwhile Holo ID, "get some help, Halu!"

[@blitzniteenti-ty]

the last part makes me cringe man like saying "goodnight baby girl"

[@needfood4279]

God damn homie, that ending was tuff.

[@Xanthopathy]

I think the more deep-rooted "problem" with vtubing is that it's still a niche inside a niche, so a giant portion of the community is bound to be mentally ill on some level. Combining the volatility of parasociality with a group of people who lack self-control was always going to end badly.

[@kyokyo718]

Having the traits of both streaming and anime while inheriting a lot of the worst habits from both is a hell of a drug. Add in some idol culture and maybe a sprinkle of B/GFE and holy fuck sometimes reading youtube comments becomes an exercise in self restraint.

[@Moustakio]

I don't trust lonely people to realize when they're in too deep in their attachment, and I don't trust a vtuber not to take advantage of it at some point, boundaries, or not

[@caelumCh]

Zehahahaha, I really love auto generic subtitles 😂❤. Also, what you say is really true and I hope they all can fix their problem in the future.

[@akira8393]

i mean one can only pray but i dont really think there will be any change

[@Practitioner_of_Diogenes]

Interesting choice of music in this one. Anyway, as the only agency I actively watch in full is Phase Connect, GFE is rarely performed by the girls. Only Remi and Rie really performing it at this point through ASMR, but around the turn of this year, Airi, Erina, and Shiina tried their hands at it, also through ASMR. Airi and Erina haven't done anything like that since May, while Shiina's last one is related to her subathon and was performed in June. Dizzy does OOC streams, which kinda helps with the disconnect of the toxic side of parasocialism. Though, I sometimes worry about Shiina when it comes to the parasocial thing... That said, it really depends on how the talent handles the viewers they've gathered that makes the "experience" a good or bad thing from a moral standpoint. Another vtuber I'm aware of is Ophelia Midnight from Vreverie and she goes *HARD* into the roleplaying thing for GFE. While she somewhat makes sure people understand it's just an act at the start and end of her streams (vod watcher here), she doesn't always make it clear. She's the only talent from that agency that I've seen actively pursue that line of entertainment. I more actively watch Nova Aokami from that agency, who's "relationship" with chat is more akin to "Hanging out with the bros" than anything else. I'm also subbed to Cheri and Rana from that same agency, but rarely, rarely watch them, so I can't tell how they engage, but from what I've seen, they're more normalish streamers. So, it's a mix of both the talent and the viewers to make sure the mental health of both parties are healthy if GFE entertainment is performed.

[@xnephysisthere]

Why does this get dressed up like it's some culture clash between pro parasocial and against? The morality question is simple, adults who can consent can do whatever they want to each other, it's ethical between them. The only counter arguments are just about positions determining the ability for someone to have consent.

[@nathanperquin9910]

also being parasocially attached to rando's on the internet is fundamentally unhealthy, you dont actually know them and they don't know you. if you are in any way mentally sound you can tell the difference between someone you are in [a friendly] relationship with and just a person who exists to entertain you

[@Coffee_paradox]

*who makes money by entertaining you*. That being said someone whos mentally healthy would not have fallen into the trap to begin with, so telling toxic fans not to be toxic is beating a dead horse.

[@Dice-Z]

@@Coffee_paradox So is telling insane violent people not to beat up people, still doesn't make it okay or the victims blameable for existing, catching their interest and trying to have a life. You can apply this logic when someone else isn't getting hurt and we aren't talking about human relationships involving real people with real feelings, but here we are, so don't. And your "correction" changes nothing about what they said, it was already implied.

[@Coffee_paradox]

@@Dice-ZIf you walk into an insane asylum and sell them a product that specifically target and will worsen their psychosis then you’re absolutely blameable.

[@Ariverfish]

This is me but loading up a save in KCD, getting a polearm and going on a murder spree.

[@richyramirez4720]

That ending got me laughing out loud I got look weird at work

[@seacoloredsky]

like in [almost] any relationship, the responsibility lies on both people i have bpd and a history of getting strongly attached to people that paid me minimum attention, only to get crushed with disappointment when things inevitably changed, and pushing them away further when i got jealous and desperate out of fear of abandonment, so i can imagine what parasocial relationships feel like and how it can hurt. there can be /reasons/ for falling for a fantasy and building sandcastles in the air, but there are no /excuses/ for acting without decency and respect for the other person. similarly, if you've won people's hearts you have an influence over them, and playing into the experience too much and enabling certain behavior comes with consequences. (giving side-eye to a certain niji vtuber who acts opposite of vox) as a viewer i'm tired of seeing disclaimers that remind people of common sense in every other video, but gfe/bfe is probably the type of content where it's necessary to do so. obviously, not everyone will listen but that is out of creator's control already.

[@akira8393]

it takes two get married but one to fuck it up

[@Dice-Z]

I have BPD too and i'd still be unhinged if i expected a content creator not to have a relationship, even if they cater to GFE/BFE, that is fully within their right, not a mistake or a taboo, not debatable. People can be angry, they can stop supporting them, but they have no right to try to get back at them. The "consequences" are not acceptable. Obviously developing a relationship one on one in private while leading someone on (=/= people misreading signals) is absolutely stupid and potentially abusive, but that goes way outside the realm of content creation and GFE/BFE, it's unhealthy, unprofessional interaction. It still does not justify harassement or worse.

[@desdar100]

I think the big issue is that it comes off as incredibly predatory. The medium as a whole is closely descended from Idol culture where it inherently profits off of misery by creating an artificial beacon of Hope for the mentally unwell or depressed to latch onto. Boyfriend / girlfriend experience that idea and triples down on it buy homing in on the worst aspects of idle culture and trying to make quick bucks off of it. The same individuals will then turn around and cry fell when they're unstable fanbase lashes out because they're breaking the keyfabe. The drug dealer analogy works wonders because although you can argue that people don't have to buy into it, but the individuals are purposely selling these things in specific locations where this sort of thing could prosper so you're targeting in on a very specific community

[@jasmerloveschickenrice]

THAT BIT AT THE END OF THE VIDEO KILLED ME X_X BRO I WAS EATING AND NEARLY CHOKED

[@PreshaOrion]

I wonder if adding a disclaimer, and a small segment before and after where you break the role play for a few minutes. On of the people I listen to for ASMR chats for a few minutes, says hello to a number of fans, then adds a little space with a transition screen before the roleplay.

[@akira8393]

more likely no. the more likely is to not sell voice packs, and second is to have more mixed collabs rather than male collabs

[@SgtRamen69]

Didn't watch the video yet, but I don't think it's a bad thing to do per se. It's just that exceptionally lonely people end up making it bad. I just find it entertaining and nothing more.

[@Butter_Warrior99]

To me it depends on if you cross the line of enjoyer to obsessed fanatic that projects their ideas on who the entertainer is upon entertainer.

[@iaminsideyourwalls2021]

The latter are definitely no-lifes who is so miserable irl that they can only find love with a virtual anime girl online. Thankfully, I'm the former. A casual watcher

[@kevinnio]

Is it ok to lie to such miserable people and convince them you loved them when you don't really do?

[@akira8393]

if buy medicine in pharmacy there's nothing wrong with it but to the point you go to buy with a drug dealer is danger

[@hemkin_]

yoooo Nousagi BFE ASMR experience?!?!? who let him cook?! nice ending tho 😂

[@ringoreddo308]

You should have used your merchant voice for that last bit.

[@wedge471]

I would say the vtuber is not "responsible" however I would also posit the vtuber is not immune from repercussions if they are willing to roll the dice on that style of content they should not be surprised if they get extreme parasocials. To put it another way when you get in the car you're accepting the risk that you might have an accident. The accident might not be your fault but you still have to be prepared for that outcome

[@akira8393]

i mean if you drive recklessly and crash to someone. why would you yell at the people you crash into?

[@wedge471]

@@akira8393 you're right that is a fair counterpoint to the argument and Mr nousagi sort of address that towards the end of the video. however the analogy was made assuming you were driving safely. Or in the original context setting up proper boundaries

[@akira8393]

@@wedge471 i was actually trying to proof that point not to counter it but yeah. at the very least have safety plans

[@rowanmales3430]

The "this is morally wrong" argument is frankly stupid. "You are fueling their addiction" can be applied to almost literally everything, because there will ALWAYS be a subset of people who will get addicted to anything. Heck, playing a load of Minecraft streams can "exploit someone's Minecraft addiction". In fact, I would argue that the whole POINT of being a content creator is to get people to watch your content, and inherent in that is that many people will like it enough to get addicted. The streamer cannot be responsible for how the viewer chooses to read into their content when they have no control over who choses to engage or not.

[@RC10000]

Nice video Nousagito

[@quinsysquid2562]

The summary of this video: “Jesse, we need to do GFE”

[@akira8393]

ngl, walter makes a good daddy

[@ginkitsune]

I think there's definitely problems with the people that take it too far. I mean, it's ridiculous to think that you know this person well enough to act that way towards them. But when a talent cultivates that kind of audience, they should expect the backlash when they want to suddenly do something against what they are selling.

[@SOSFREAK]

I believe GFE or BFE they are not bad. You're supposed to deal with adults and they should be responsible for their actions, if you can't tell reality from a performance it's your fault, not the one providing the experience.

[@killerking2346]

lol you switched to pink neko and I couldn't even tell the difference for a while... that model is truly...hmmm...

[@rjai5003]

I always felt the harassment Rushia got was unwarranted, but when I saw that she was trying to build the exact same type of fanbase after getting a new start, one of my first thoughts was “why would you do this again?”

[@FantasiephilosophRaku]

Because a large portion of her fanbase supported her and werent the cause for her harassment in the first place, Mafumafus fans were the main perpetrators (she also had for years not a single drama with her fanbase when she was Rushia and only a loud minority of her own complained when the drama happened) and the harassment after where from antis and manipulative holofans (which still hasnt stopped).

[@goleogthais]

ITS REAL TO ME DAMMIT fauna isnt doing it for a job, she genuinely loves me and cares for me! uuuuuu 😭😭😭😭😭 lmao tho that bit at the end though, i felt the cringe in my soul

[@akira8393]

that is what watching vshojo is like

[@HorrifyinglyAbsurd]

I don't really care honestly like, i don't even watch vtuber for their GFE/BFE content and that stuff just feels pretty cringe to me in general. Of course I don't have anything againts people who like to watched that type of content 😅

[@grumpycup4762]

That ending. Dammit.... OK where do I pay for more?

[@zerozoidHD]

What a curveball at the end x'D that was a great punchline "It's your responsability in the end.... so, THAT SAID" *turns into a husbando* Fully responsible me: oh- ..... YES!

[@RagnarokMasta]

There is a metric ton of things to say about this. But honestly, if we distill things down to their primal core, what's wrong or right is something we just made up as humans, and people just do what benefits them, incentives vs. disincentives. But if we put morality into it, it depends on intent. If someone will do anything to get the bag, and have no dignity or conscience, then yeah, its bad. There are also people who genuinely connect with people through vtubing and end up caught up in that. And there are people who are just looking for a paycheck but clock in and clock out using thier talents. So there isn't just one answer, and people aren't likely to risk the big payday to be honest about their intent(or the depths of their own mental frailities). I will say this, we are no closer to addressing the deepening loneliness with people, primarily because its easier to dismiss, isolate, and make witty quips about touching grass than actually helping people. So if anything, the charismatic sociopaths amongst us will be able to get dat bag for a long time to come until we actually get serious about dealing with it. The worst takes is thinking that the Internet is the only reason, and not acknowledging the stigma of mental illness, or the apathy inherent in society. Again, there is a lot of reasons this is even lucative to begin with.

[@tanvoltz4623]

Oh boy new Nousagi video *pulls out popcorn 🍿 *

[@Throughthelurkingglass]

Im just here to hear ladies singing, havent given any of them a thing

[@Gell-lo]

That ending got me acting up, boyo

[@rickybell]

6:30... isn't this exactly like the host club culture??? i am just wondering...

[@zomfgroflmao1337]

I think you get parasocial wrong, not everybody is parasocial about every content creator. If you watch content creators for the content and don't care much about the personality (as long as it isn't offensive to you) I doubt anyone would consider that parasocial.

[@psychodarling666]

WHOA what was that at the end please do it again

[@arias1234]

"you are para-social to me" what? Eww, no.