The Most Controversial Game of 2023

The Coffin of Andy and Leyley has seen an extreme amount of scrutiny within the past few months, ever since posts about the... questionable actions of its main characters went viral. The backlash was so intense that the creator has actually ceased all Internet activity-- although they will continue to aid development behind the scenes. Despite all this attention, I noticed that it seemed the majority of people speaking on the game had no clue what it was actually about; I thought this was sort of ridiculous, so I decided to play it myself and see what happened.
0:00 - Intro (Background, Popular Tweets, etc.)
9:07 - The Game
12:47 - Episode 1: The Coffin
16:54 - Episode 2: Graves
27:47 - Reflection
30:08 - The Aftermath
Music Creds:
Honey Jam by Massobeats
Noir Fi Album by Ctrl Alt Beat
Intense Action Background Music by Argsound
#memes #games #tcoal #horrorgames #edutainment

[@SnaxMang]

"A horror game about horrible people shows them doing something horrible? Well I guess I'll commit a crime against its creator to make a point about how bad that is."

[@TreeTop73]

Listen I know what they did is bad, but I really dont think the creator had to add it, but still no hate towards her, it just felt unneeded Edit: because some people are getting mad at me let me correct myself, I don't care what people do with their games, I'll give my opinion on what they do and if I like it or not but at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me, I was stating my thoughts on the dream sequence incest scene, don't get mad at me

[@NuSuntSerb]

@@TreeTop73 i mean hey, if it wasnt for the controversy (incest) then the dev wouldnt have made nearly as much money off of the game. Gotta respect the hustle

[@SnaxMang]

@TreeTopKid73 That shouldn't even factor into a discussion about doxxing. Why even write this comment? Also, apparently, the creator is a chick.

[@syep12]

@@SnaxMang no yeah it does the creator far from deserved it but he showed the reason they got doxxed

[@jancana]

​@TreeTopKid73 it's called character development. ...

[@lilbirb082]

Twitter logic is wild, "Fictional child murder and fictional cannibalism are all well and good, but fictional incest is where i draw the line!"

[@gorax8784]

It's amazing how a game filled with morally Disgusting actions is all around fine but incest is where they all draw the line like. Sure we can kill our parents and eat their corpses, but I'd never fuck my sister! Like brother I think your missing the point of going insane due to severe trauma

[@snarkybug4]

Child murder and cannibalism are both common themes in horror media whereas incest isn’t

[@lilbirb082]

@@snarkybug4 So?

[@AleTitan]

​@@lilbirb082soooo the whole point of the comment is calling Twitter users hypocritical bruh it's not that's hard to connect the dots

[@Dog.This_Identifier_Is_Shit.]

I think the difference is that one is put as something necessary while the other is generally seen as a fetish.

[@tishiundercover8467]

"It's weird that the creator added it" "She didn't need to add that" "She must be into it" Just because someone adds something into their game or story, doesn't mean they support it. I mean...you don't point fingers at everyone that involves murder in their stories that they killed someone, do you?

[@PK-cg5ej]

Uhh the creator definitely enjoys it though. Fetish content for sure.

[@user-je6ck4cp7h]

Yes that’s saying Scott cawthon kills people

[@uzacki]

Yeah, but you see: Incest is pretty fcking specific, isn't it? Let's take your example: Murder. When you kill someone in a Game, more often then not, it's to either be 1. The good guy saving the world. 2. The bad guy, just being bad. 3. Or you ain't playing the story and just fck around. Now, fcking your sibling on the other hand. Of course its up to each person themselves if they find it over the top or not.

[@DifferentChanges]

@@uzacki 🤦‍♂

[@TheMaxPirat]

Full game is basically romantic/sexual siblings fantasy. I'm not against it, it just a fact.

[@stormwarrior5362]

As another KZbinr put it “Twitter had a big problem with inc3st part, but completely glossed over the main characters eating their parents”. Not a direct quote, but I think it gets the message across.

[@Vitorruy1]

lol

[@neyth_D42]

The thing is, people are used to hyperviolence in all kind of media. Incest is still taboo.

[@Kirokill1]

I have absolutely no idea how incest is considered worse than what they did to their parents start to finish.

[@pablogarcia6188]

Bro why are they always drawn like there gonna fuck like what's going on

[@EpikBirb]

​@@pablogarcia6188Hidden fetish slop disguised as something more acceptable

[@TempestKrimps]

this game was an interesting phenomenon to see. the game releases with no reputation, the people that liked it start talking about how they liked it, the people who didn't like it mention the incest, the people who never played the game see the incest complaints and begin to hate on it blindly, which prompts the people who did like the game (and the creator herself) to do more incest jokes, and now a person who has never heard of the game will only know about it because of the incest what i'm saying is, maybe the real incest were the friends we made along the way

[@Hevelord]

*Slow clap sounds*

[@alface935]

True

[@notsuicidal]

i first saw a gameplay of it on youtube and i never finished watching it, i just went to download it because i LOVED the art style and the messed up characters and holy shit was the story interesting and fun. i unapologetically love this game and i couldn't care less if people find me weird.

[@alface935]

@@notsuicidal Chad

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

incest with your friends, you say?

[@Chillmewo]

Lmao this isn't the worst relationship this creator put in a game, one had necrophilia where the characters had an actual child, selfcest, and a manipulated boy with a god

[@jormy49]

Sheeeeesh

[@TayDoesStuff]

Fucking pardon me?

[@OrangeOctangular]

i dont understand what is wrong with "selfcest"

[@epsilonioncellulargenocide38]

I think selfcest is normal enough

[@vyllix8546]

@@epsilonioncellulargenocide38 that's literally incest with more steps... or fewer if you think about it

[@sexylinoleum9488]

People, once again, forgetting that media is allowed to be gross and offensive.

[@cloudy-rb4kr]

How is the game gross?

[@threestars2164]

I guess they have never read 120 days of sodom.

[@gjn-tz7vk]

​@@cloudy-rb4krare you fr?

[@Ad_Astrum1121]

​@@gjn-tz7vk I mean I see it, if you actually go through the game it's literally a single ending with incest and every other good thing is completely ignored to call it gross? Nah the game isn't gross, it's actually really good and disturbing, I wouldn't call it disgusting.

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@Ad_Astrum1121 It depends what you mean by gross/disgusting, doesn't it? I would absolutely call Bloodborne disgusting, and I love that game. The reason I'd call it disgusting is that everything about its visual design creeps me the heck out and makes me feel like I'm touching a corpse, just like it's supposed to. I mean it as a compliment.

[@sea509]

Its not an incest game, and the fact that their incestuous makes perfect sense in the context of the story. Its a story about the effects of over-dependence, attachment, and betrayal. Just as rhetorical route where they are willing to kill each other in a vision the route where they show their suppressed affection is a reflection of how with no one else to rely on they don’t know how to have a proper relationship.

[@dd6742]

Even though the fanbase is way too obsessed with the incest part lol

[@MetaKnight964]

@@dd6742 That would be the haters.

[@sea509]

@@dd6742 thats the haters, everyone who likes the game and has seen it knows the game makes it obvious that the incest is clearly wrong.

[@dd6742]

@@sea509 Lmao Just dont go into the subreddit of the game.

[@FuzzyNaiyalism]

@@dd6742 Exactly that, the reddit is full of creeps. Honestly really wanted to discuss with other people on their fucked up dynamic and then was incredibly off-put by the contents of the subreddit. But to reiterate, the "horror" comes from the uncomfortable feelings of witnessing and aiding in their insane actions.

[@LonelyGamer4]

Drawing the line of things acceptable in video games at incest just seems so arbitrary. Most people would agree that IRL murder is far worse than incest, yet they’re fine with games that glorify violence or where you can mow down civilians

[@floofyboi7546]

Especially when they’re fine with arguably far worse things in other games Like, where was all this outrage and doxing when Baldurs Gate 3 had a scene where you literally fucked a bear?

[@vvizardgaming]

The problem is that the game makes it a fetish and it is obviously geared towards people who are into incest porn, I mean, just look at how they are drawn together, it's fuckin weird bro

[@floofyboi7546]

@@vvizardgaming have you played the game? The scene is very hard to get to and is very much the bad ending (being a vision from the demon they worship warning them that going down that route is very bad)

[@flintfrommother3gaming]

​@@floofyboi7546That means NOTHING when you realize why people play this game. Even the mentally normal people who check out this game because of its popularity will do that route because that's all the game got going for itself, to validate itself to weirdos who get off to this. The other routes doesn't matter at all.

[@floofyboi7546]

@@flintfrommother3gaming to this I bring up the Baldurs Gate 3 zoophilia scene How come that is ok? It garnered *news articles* yet still won game of the year. It’s a completely optional route that requires effort to get to just like the incest scene in CoAaL how is it different?

[@aumiist]

i'd like to clarify that the game's creator was NOT doxxed by people who think "waah incest game bad". it was by 4chan rejects who thought the creator was a trans woman and decided that she deserved to be doxxed because of her alleged identity (which turned out that the creator was a cis woman and not even trans at all)

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

That's the first I've heard of this. Are there any sources to this or..? EDIT: Saw a Reddit thread on this game's subreddit bring this up in a different video and apparently the soyjak party mfs who started the doxxing attempts saw the game as "for degenerates". There was a lot of gore and other unsavory images spammed there in response iirc.

[@vyllix8546]

​@@ArbitraryOutcome that's a classic case of "the source is that i made it the fuck up" now the only question is if the op has nanomachines and and is a senator...

[@sxmbxdy]

YWNBAW doe

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

@@vyllix8546 TBH I know KZbin loves to delete external links in comments due to the spam bot epidemic that's gone on for years.

[@polocatfan]

I use 4chan and I definitely don't remember anyone on there ever discussing them being trans. I'd love to see evidence of this if it actually happened though.

[@SamP-by7iv]

Normies acting like this is the nastiest RPG Maker game ever made lmao

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

Are you just saying that in general, or are you specifically referencing _Fear and Hunger?_

[@popohoho8151]

i think people forgot that YOU CAN LIKE SOMETHING WITHOUT ENDORSING IT OR CONDONING IT if we had this mentality about everything we would enjoy nothing 😭 just because you like something doesn't mean that you completely agree with everything in it i like doki doki doesn't mean im a fan of suicide im a fan of undertale doesn't mean i get off on child murder like it really is not that deep and especially not deep enough to try and dox someone over

[@earlalva493]

Game of Thrones had way more explicit incest and gore. The original material it's based on probably had even more. Many people like and hate on a certain piece of media when it's fashionable. However, it's much easier to harass some solitary female game dev rather than George R. R. Martin who gives exactly zero fucks and has a massive fan base. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[@lain13]

Everytime a weird scene in the game came on my mind automatically went "please don't be incest please don't be incest. This is normal siblings love right? Don't be incest. Fuck I think it's incest!"

[@jormy49]

same lol

[@easytiger6570]

If your normal siblings love includes murder, I have bad news for you

[@crimsog6872]

nonononono waitwaitwaitwait- WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT!

[@a_34222]

Yes 😭

[@gorax8784]

The funny thing is that it's not incest as long as you don't make it incest. Like you literally have a choice to go the incest route and even when you do you get TWO options to back out in chapter 2 alone! I won't be surprised if there'll be more options to opt out of that further just so you don't force yourself to play an incest game. It's a choice, not a forced path the game takes you down

[@xmant8842]

Personally, i honestly really liked this game and got super invested. Not because of the incest. Obviously, incest is bad. But it's both fiction and horror. Its designed to make you feel bad/uncomfortable. And the creator literally said the incest ending is the bad ending. What i love about the game is the art, story, characters(theyre awful people, but great characters), and soundtrack. As far as the incest, cannibalism, and satanic stuff goes, i honestly dont care one way or the other. Im pretty much desensitized at this point. And, like i said, its fiction.

[@haha-ls1to]

right? that's what people don't get its a fictional game that changes based on your choices, so if you get the incest ending it was on your free will, and then youd be a hpocrite to say anything about anyone else lol.

[@Dog.This_Identifier_Is_Shit.]

“Incest is bad” “I'm pretty much desensitized at this point” Lol. There is no need to pretend something in order to save some dignity only to then say it's “just fiction”.

[@loygeeAGAIN]

youd get flamed if you said this on twitter

[@xmant8842]

@@loygeeAGAIN I guess it's a good thing I don't use Twitter and never have

[@Negonkey]

This game managed to make me feel uncomfortable with fictional murder because of how getting rid of a corpse is depicted. Gross and depressing. I love it.

[@BreadTeleporter1968]

Lego city undercover unironically goes hard

[@ad3l547]

I like how litterally everybody said that Nemlei have some weird fetishes about incest. But for those who already played and watched her other games, you already know that it's just a common thing for Nemlei to include controversial topics in one of her game.

[@liv.s.]

yeah, her other games have sibling relationships and there isn't incest. it's obviously not a fetish or whatever, she just writes about a lot of dark topics/toxic relationships

[@user-jl9dt6tf4l]

​@liv.s. to add, Horror- a genere evoking fear, disgust, disturbance, shock, and revolt, Incest, murder, satinic rituals and cannibalism is pretty shocking, disgusting, disturbing and revolting

[@vyllix8546]

I think a lot of the problem that comes to people who ACTUALLY played this game and tried to understand this story is that they come in with the mindset of "im playing the INCEST GAME" which is let's be real, change a lot of the way they'll experience EVERYTHING in the game, and of course they'll come out of it with the mindset of "yep, that was the incest game", which is pretty reductive and again, will change a lot of the way you'll take every scene, imagine if you were to watch SAW movies for the first time with the mindset "this is some gore bondage fetish movie", then yes, of course you'll get away from the movie going "that was a pretty weird fetish movie"

[@nyxsangel]

this is totally fair. I went into the game w this in mind but I also watched a video prior that broke down the characters and the relationship so I was a bit more open minded and ended up being very invested in the characters and the story! Its a good game tbh

[@josuesalazar9211]

I feel lucky to enjoy the game without knowing anything about it, and to be honest, incest was the thing I remember the least every time someone mentions the game.

[@scootermcpeanuts6699]

In all fairness I can’t really test that comparison because the SAW movies are some of the only movies I straight up can’t sit through.

[@Ace-rm3fn]

the difference is, SAW doesn't romanticize gore, but andy and leyley romanticize/downplay incest and make it seem like some "UwU wholesome 100%" thing, that's why most people are turned off or disgusted by the game

[@someonessecondaltaccount6932]

I watched manlybadasshero play it before I ever even heard about it, manlybadasshero was the first ever time I saw the coffin of Andy and leyley, and I always thought of.. "that" ending as something insignificant, and also the fact that you HAVE to know what you're doing to ever end up in that ending

[@Chicken-Cha-Chas]

Ngl, I’m surprised people didn’t give these characters the “oh they were abandoned by their parents and forced to live a shitty life.” Or “oh she’s just like me fr fr” pass knowing the same people who most likely supported the real life yandere girl or some other hypocritical thing.

[@pumpkinwarrior7138]

People did

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Whose the real life yandere?

[@Chicken-Cha-Chas]

@ibrahimihsan2090 Some tiktoker cosplayer who attempted to kill some guy because she wouldn't be with him and basically got jailed for only a few years. If it was a guy, he would get 10 years. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6bCgaRurqamg8ksi=zxjtQvQS66-j_6rF

[@RabdoInternetGuy]

I mean it is 100% parents fault, but that doesn't mean they're innocent. The Parents are jackasses, and are a big reason why ashley is so manipulative and possesive over andrew, and vice versa. Still thats no excuse. Not to Mention their parents sold them to Organ Harvesters

[@Chicken-Cha-Chas]

@DulekAdem I know it's just most people on Twitter are usually attracted to these kinds of characters. Like some people stan actual real life serial killers but draw the line at fiction. I just find the hypocrisy funny.

[@imactuallykools]

I personally REALLY liked the game. was it perfect? not one bit. the closest thing I'd compare it too is American psycho honestly. the main character(s) do morally reprehensible things, and that's the horror.

[@gorax8784]

Tbh I didn't feel the horror from just cannibalism and murders, we've seen those in movies and games plenty of times. I think the mental destruction point where Andrew is going slowly mental and losing his humanity even more than Leyley is the real horror. I can only wonder what the ending will be but I'm pretty sure at least one of the endings will be Andy killing his sister cause he's just so far away from even being human anymore

[@imactuallykools]

@@gorax8784 yea. I was more so referring to that.

[@OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOq]

The toxic relationship was entertaining. The entire situation with them was so goofy I could not help but be amused by it.

[@christiananimepunk4793]

It's very similar to "Flowers in the Attic" only with a H.P Lovecraft twist.

[@hatman9609]

Out of everything they do in the Coffin of Andy and Leyley, the Incest was insanely mild to me and I didn’t even care much

[@NavarroRefugee]

Why have people become so deeply hysterical about anything related to sex? The game is clearly not portraying Andrew and Ashley's relationship in a positive light, it's not exactly conveying a pro-incest message. I strongly feel like if every other aspect of this game was exactly the same (the cannibalism, ritual human sacrifices, murder, etc) but there was no incest, no one would even raise an eyebrow at it, because other media depicting these things comes and goes without so much as a whisper of outrage. But because the siblings end up fucking some people just lose their goddamn minds. Can someone who feels this way please walk me through your system of morality? Like if we have 3 crimes, incest, murder, and cannibalism, how would you rate them from most to least bad? And if incest is way below the other two (as it frankly should be) why are you losing your mind over it but saying nothing about eating people?

[@nojoke449]

It’s not about sex. It’s about how the creator handles incest within the game.

[@David280GG]

Its to show the messed up morals of the characters

[@zyncwargaming179]

Idk man its a weird hill to fight on. People make lame and non supportable statements like its how the creator added or wrote the incest.

[@holl7w]

​@@David280GG oh I found you again

[@jeremylackey6587]

People haven't become more upset about this stuff. They've always been this way. Taboo subjects have always been popular in p*rn, horror, etc. And people have always been disgusted and outraged. I'm of the camp that fiction and fantasy are the places to explore and understand fucked up subjects.

[@OlTimeyChara]

The more i think about the incest ending, the more depressing it feels. Ashley may seem like a really confident person, judging by how she is always acting out and teasing andrew, she clearly doesn't value herself all that much(one the first lines in the game is "as much as you like feeling sorry for yourself, and in the dream sequence in the ending if you read the description of the pink bunny plushie(a representation of ashley) it's described as "Useless", besides some other hints that Ashley doesn't value herself, since her friends didn't really give a shit about her(never showed up to her birthday) and she was a social outcast(this is even shown in the December devlog, where one of Andrew's friends is bothered by her presence at school). All these factors make Ashley desperate for andrew's attention, and due to how lowly she thinks of herself, she cannot recognize that andrew genuinely loves her, she always feels like she needs something to keep him around(such as when she mentions that as long as she has the trinket, he won't leave her. She needs to think of herself as being useful in order for her brother to even want to stay with her). With all of this being said, i think her having sex with Andrew would be just another way of keeping him around, which i find really fucking sad, even if burial is the best route for the sake of their relationship improving, so i don't think that sex scene is there for no reason, it kinda reflects their characters.

[@Oltiemal]

Finally someone fucking said it

[@cnarylmaz998]

Beautifully said.

[@SunLovinSolaire]

Well put

[@ludwigvangaming1822]

I think the better route for their relationship is Decay, because at this point, it's better for them to just cut ties completely. And I agree with you, it's pretty obvious once you play the game that Ashley doesn't even love Andrew in that way, she just sees incest as a way to keep him with her.

[@OlTimeyChara]

@@ludwigvangaming1822 Decay is my favorite route, and i plan to make a video essay about it soon!

[@StlolitzFR]

And the thing is the "incest game" is caused by the player choosing a string of options which causes it

[@Zorothegallade-gg7zg]

"I followed a guide to know the exact sequence of actions I needed to take to look at a 5 seconds incest scene so I could make a 2 paragraph post complaining about it"

[@OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOq]

I mean even if you don’t go that route, you can still see that theme from the start and throughout the game.

[@_10_point_buck21]

@@OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOq nah bc ive been saying this. its not just the ending. its the writing, art, and dev

[@8obil116]

@@_10_point_buck21Even so, it doesn’t matter because it’s supposed to be disturbing as a horror game. Horror games have had cannibalism, murder, demons, or sociopaths before, but just adding incest makes it too far?

[@chickensandwich9977]

"I took a monster dump in the middle of playing" really won me over I'm a proudly subscribed

[@charmyzard]

Hilarious how those who attacked the creator fundamentally misunderstood the game's point. It's not "le funy game" about a quirky waifu or husbando, it's a psychological horror about horrible people doing evil things.

[@PsycologicalTerror]

Twitter getting mad at psychological horror 💀

[@sayo5204]

Where is the psychological horror

[@Cat_Garfield]

​@@sayo5204 Andrew/Andy gets gaslit and manipulated by Ashley until he embraces that he's a psychopath (Ashley made him kill 3 people and blamed him) or he finally stops caring about Ashley and eventually kills her in one of the visions (decay route).

[@laformacion]

i find that the problem isn't with the game, but with the fanbase the fact the entire game has been watered down to "haha funny incest game" has caused a large divide between the degenerates who think incest is hot, and the normal population. you are ALLOWED to enjoy these dark topics, so long as you aren't romanticising them, which is a lot of what you see on like 50% of the defenders of this game

[@sergiosantosfilipe165]

Something that does the game a disservice is the art style. It represents the acts in a surprisingly "appealing" way, which were, obviously, popularized. If the creator had the possibility to change the style of artwork during gameplay, it would fit perfectly during the disturbing parts, i.e. the incest, murder, cannibalism etc.

[@laformacion]

@@sergiosantosfilipe165put it into words perfectly

[@WallNutBreaker524]

I think you got this backwards, the problem is "The Normal Population", who aren't normal, but a few sensitive idiots who seek clout. In defense of their game, they just made more incest jokes.

[@WallNutBreaker524]

Would you say the same for Doki Doki Literature Club? Sorry, I don't mean to offend or hurt feelings, but I gotta call bullshit out. Your opinion is bullshit. Look at Happy Tree Friends as an example. ​@@sergiosantosfilipe165

[@WallNutBreaker524]

No. Not really. ​@@laformacion

[@juliannocartagena2007]

I never heard anything about this game. Probably because I’m scared of making an account on the mean and angry birdie app.

[@middleofsomecalibrations]

The only winning move is not to play

[@juliannocartagena2007]

@@middleofsomecalibrationsOk? I wasn’t planning on doing so anyway.

[@Kyrikrliy]

Same, this video is my first time hearing of the game

[@lonerguy757]

@@juliannocartagena2007 i mean if you like psychological horror game then yea give it a try , but its not like a silent hill or omori type of psychological horror, more like a wtf thats shit messed up type,

[@blockeontheleafeon]

Between this and the "Class of '09" games, 2023 is truly the year of all time.

[@DARK-dw2gm]

class of 09 got carried hard by the cop

[@blockeontheleafeon]

@@DARK-dw2gm Facts.

[@GabeDelta]

I wonder if class of 09 with Skyrocket as well

[@TK-317]

​@@DARK-dw2gm "I WANNA KILL MY FUCKING WIFE!"

[@SpookyPancakes]

I thought class of 09 was some old game that blew up again since I never bothered to actually look it up and now I’m flabbergasted

[@anonymousxoxo134]

Why do I feel like the only reason people find it controversial was bc of the incest? Despite the fact it involves worse topics. If it didn’t have the incest, would the same amount of people throw a fit over it? Considering some people’s questionable moral codes, probably not.

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

I'm wondering if a lot of the controversy might have stemmed more from fan dumb than the actual game content.

[@anonymousxoxo134]

@@ArbitraryOutcome Honestly maybe

[@mrstarantula8050]

Not trying to argue or anything so please do not take this seriously. In my opinion the reason why people aren't really mad abt the murder,cannibalism,satanic (if there's more topics,I'm sorry for the lack,i can't really remember)things is because that's kinda what you'll find in some horror games/movies,Satanic rituals,sacrifices,cannibalism,murder,torture,etc(yes it's a game but I'm also including movies,i sound like a nerd..😭) people are desensitized to that kind of stuff,there might be games worse than incest like necrophilia,pedophilia,zoophila,but I see where your kinda coming from. I forgot what else to say so..

[@anonymousxoxo134]

@@mrstarantula8050 Yeah, that’s understandable. I also read/watch that kind of stuff so I’m also unfazed from most of them. Same with this game until certain aspects like the child murder, making fun of someone’s condition, death threats to Julia, Ashley just Ashley, and etc. As unfazed by most aspects of the game but uncomfortable I am with the incest, I know that the other topics there are far worse. I guess I kinda find it annoying how some people aren’t at least ACKNOWLEDGING that. Like the game is already controversial enough, and THAT’S what you’re putting your foot down for? 😭

[@mrstarantula8050]

​@@anonymousxoxo134 I highly understand,mostly because the incest is just hinted at and stuff like Julia's asthma should not be made fun of at all because that's just..fucked up atp🤷🏾‍♀️

[@Freak_anda_weirdo]

Horror games are supposed to be unsettling, not just “ohh noooesss spoopy jumpscare..moving on” and then be done with it. I really don’t understand why people are so pressed about something UNSETTLING in a HORROR GAME.

[@Freak_anda_weirdo]

Btw, it is a great game idgaf if I’m late 💀

[@realcopoolman]

its just fucked up not scary@@Freak_anda_weirdo

[@DU.HISPANO]

​@@realcopoolmanhorror games are meant to be like that they are supposed to touch topics like this. I dont see Gamers complaiming about you mowing down innocent people in gta the story mission where you brutally torture a man that has a family while Trevor is enjoying it i dont find anything wrong with it and my point is that nothing should be seen as wrong in videogames the goal is to tell a story doesnt matter if its fun,emotional,scary or disturbing unless we are talking about games where you do things to children be it murder or worse things that is the only thing that i find wrong

[@realcopoolman]

at least gta doesnt have twitter artstyle@@DU.HISPANO

[@vthesnail]

17:47 "This is not how real people talk." Meanwhile, me and my friends irl casually cursing each other's entire family lineage the second we slighly inconvenience one another lmao. Seriously, though, that scene was hysterical cuz it happens suddenly without any prompt. Also, fun fact, their insult match continues if you keep blocking him, until he eventually starts pretending he can't see you anymore.

[@dakota4111]

Correct, its now how “real people talk”, its how siblings and close friends talk. Clearly Jormy doesnt have a sibling

[@ADcommenter]

How bad was it? It was tame. Compared to everything else i've seen on the magical site of the internet, this was the most normal thing that came out of it.

[@Cat_Garfield]

​@@David280GG Don't act like Twitch and KZbin don't have idiots too.

[@lilli4222]

My a** thinking I could beat it cuz I've played omori and ddlc once:

[@ellahere2300]

​@@lilli4222The puzzles are pretty easy, it's more of a story attached to the function of a game.

[@yektaagra741]

Despite how proggressive the (american/western) internet believes itself to be, it still falls into the many well known and countlessly reoccuring aspects of society like the fear of taboos in this example

[@nojoke449]

Well if the topic it used poorly within the game what do you expect?

[@yektaagra741]

@@nojoke449 true, but a lot of people hating on this game didnt even play it

[@vanessaashford9203]

there's nothing "progressive" about the average online community in 2024, internet culture has become a cesspool of the stupidest and most reactionary people on earth ever since social media took over

[@spencerlane415]

Progressive = More Incest Media. These kind of indie horror slop really only appeal to LITERAL CHILDREN and even if its “nOt RoMaNtIciZeD” it’s still one of those things that everyone should collectively not want to see. After years of watching movies, playing shit and reading I can say there has never ever been an artistically handed depiction of incest because it is completely anti-entertainment… unlike murder and cannibalism which can take narratives down realistically dark roads and make some of my favorite moments in anything (i.e. Chinatown, Bones and All, Requiem for a Dream, The Godfather)

[@spencerlane415]

You do understand no one wants to see incest at all and the only reason this controversy lingers is because it strikes a nerve within you all that people aren’t accept more and more incest representation. It’s one of those “vile things” that’s more cringe than vile, it’s such a nothingburger of shock because after a while it gets boring…

[@Floweramon]

"What did they expect when they made a game about incest?" That people could separate fiction from reality and realize that the horrors of fictional characters are not a good justification for harming a real life person?

[@GippyHappy]

Man has like 5 stock photo images and by golly is he going to use them

[@Luckyshape]

"That's some pretty strong language for someone who's first choice was LEGO City Undercover." They've made a very very very wise choice.

[@EngiGODS358]

>TRVTH NVKE

[@jamesreilly5905]

I don't understand why they chose that one.There are way better Lego Games like the complete saga or Dc supervillains or the Skywalker saga.That guy obviously didn't know what they were talking about.

[@OpheliaTerat]

Ngl the character designs and facial expressions gave me that incest vibe even before I knew about the controversy lol The art the creators drawn is also weird, like the one that says "cry about it" with Andy holding Leyley, the comic of Leyley moaning "Harder Andy" into a phone call with their mom, and the one with Leyley lighting Andy's cigarette while sitting on his lap. It feels like she just treats their relationship as quirky. It really does feel like an edgy 14 year old Tumblr user's bad Wattpad fanfic lmao I don't think she deserves to be doxed, but her writing and the way she treats the toxic sibling relationship does kinda suck tbh. The fanbase for the game is also very horny and cringey lol

[@jormy49]

Fax

[@casual_speedrunner1482]

The art gave you an... incest vibe? How tf does an artstyle do that? Just like "yeah, this here is the iconic Picasso artstyle, and then we have the destictive Monets, and then here we have the Incest artstyle". And also, the vibe I got from all of it was just Nemlei trolling the people that were getting pissy. Because, I mean, really? The game portrays them both time and time again to be awful people, and when people didn't really understand that, Nemlei just started trolling. I mean, the game literally spells out for you that Ashley would just be doing the incest thing to keep a tighter hold on Andrew. If you can't extrapolate the correct message from that, then you're really just asking to be played with.

[@ferretbutler1326]

​@@casual_speedrunner1482two wrongs don't make a right buddy boy. Ignorance is bliss and instead she's pulling herself down by making it like she romanticizes incest further.

[@dont4skmeN1x67]

@@casual_speedrunner1482dude was talking about the art not the artstyle itself.

[@bamboo_procrastinates]

Haha don't forget some of those fans actually drew the twins doing um...stuff and genuinely ship them. At least that's what I saw from Tumblr.

[@SaturnStikGaming]

A similarly controversial game on release was POSTAL 1. A game that has been out for two decades and is much worse, but that's considered shock value now. Weird.

[@littlequaintfellow]

My main issue with this game is not the game itself, these are just fictional characters after all. What I don't like is the fact that people on twitter keep on saying shit like how the creator is so brave for drawing 2 siblings doing the no no thing. And of course the only reasonable way to respond to this game isn't to discuss why it's bad or ignore it, but obviously to dox the creator because that makes sense.

[@Zorothegallade-gg7zg]

That's Internet logic, when they don't like something they always respond with the most extreme measures possible. They'd get rid of a mosquito with a grenade if they could get away with it.

[@exantiuse497]

I do enjoy the game but the fanbase has large degenerate parts. I feel a lot of the people discussing it have no idea what the creator is trying to say, they imagine the incest is supposed to be a good thing and that we should root for the siblings to do it, when in reality the message is the opposite; the main characters are horrible people and their incestous acts are just another perverse thing they do. I refuse to engage in any conversation about the game on social media because any playform is always filled with incest memes

[@littlequaintfellow]

@@exantiuse497 Honestly yeah, its less about the incest being in the game and more about how people treated it.

[@Jinnyfir]

How did this game cause such un uproar when we have Game of Thrones 💀

[@candydream16]

because it's a lot easier to harrass the creator of an indie project than it is to dog pile the multiple writers, actors, and directors of one of the most popular shows of all time

[@Kat-327]

There is incest in gsme of thrones?? I never watched it

[@yoshiro-chan4479]

​@@Kat-327Yep there is infact the incest there play a huge part on the story

[@15m0]

@@candydream16 yeah, and there's more chances to not get consequences from harassing one person while whole ass studio can sue you for anything and that's when you can end up in troubles

[@dfksffjfds3249]

​@@Kat-327jamie and cersei

[@uraveragedumbass]

I think most of the hate the game got was because of its community (mostly THAT one specific side of the community) because they were pretty much downplaying what the game was about, acting like it was some sort of edgy incest "corn" game, drawing "corn" of the two brothers (mostly Leyley) and being down bad for Leyley in general, making people outside the community or that didn't knew anything about the game was about think "Huh, was a nasty-ass community, the game must be nasty-ass too!"

[@jormy49]

agreed

[@vvizardgaming]

After watching this video I can conclude that it is a fetish game, I mean, the plot has no direction and like jormy said himself it feels like a wattpad, just some pornographic incest wattpad story. The only reason you can choose not to see the scene is to try and make it seem "less bad" in my opinion, but honestly, it makes it worst, you give people the option of seeing it when it has no story relevance.. Why? I'll tell you why, to the author and artist, it's hot.

[@NuSuntSerb]

What twitter claims the game is (glorifying incest) isnt what the actual game is, At least not totally. However, the community is 100% what twitter claimed the game was doign

[@casual_speedrunner1482]

​@@vvizardgamingBro didn't actually play the game 💀

[@ludwigvangaming1822]

​​@@vvizardgamingIt's not hot, it's disgusting, and the incest is a huge part of the story because it's the final nail in the coffin. The whole story is about Ashley manipulating and forcing Andrew to go along with her because she doesn't have anyone else in her life that cares about her, and she sees herself in such a bad way that she can't accept that Andrew loves her as a sister, so she blackmails and gets rid of everyone that gets slightly close to him to keep him, and her brother finally fighting back (hence why he insisted on being called Andrew instead of Andy) and slowly getting away from her. Incest is thus a way for her to completely force him to stay with her, as the dialogue shows, the only person that actually wants it is Andrew (since if you say never to incest, Andrew would almost seem disappointed) because he needs the affection that his sister denies him.

[@MichaelOxLong176]

“It’s a small horror indie game from a small studio and it actually has a great story and character development” Yeah get in line buddy

[@Toasty48]

I believe both things are pretty gross, doxxing is grosser, honestly the whole thing just makes me feel icky.

[@svlfvrcide]

knowing the context of it, i still think its incredibly gross. not enough to literally doxx someone over but still weird to put in your le quirky horror game

[@CU9_]

It’s gross because thats what they wanted you to feel

[@vasilijepopovic2916]

@@CU9_ they still added incest its like you don't just add incest so nonchalantly,it doesn't matter if its an alternative path(also the creator shouldn't have been doxxed)

[@svlfvrcide]

@@CU9_ this is a fair point actually, i guess it worked pretty well lol

[@B1jju]

@@vasilijepopovic2916 they added it because they want you to know that both of the characters have fucked up morals, even if i think the writing in the game is weak myself it isn't just placed there to be shocking

[@jormy49]

^

[@lemon-io5zj]

I got banned from the discussion board for this game on steam because i said incest was bad

[@jormy49]

💀

[@Middlefingercontent]

💀

[@nojoke449]

If that doesn’t raise any red flags then I don’t know what does. Clearly someone isn’t ready for that conversation smh

[@Kat-327]

Nemlei was trippin 💀💀

[@loygeeAGAIN]

@@nojoke449 they probably get it a lot

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

"I can excuse cannibalism, but I draw the line with incest!" Classic twitter.

[@NastyVix]

Crazy how people do nothing about Helluva Boss having child murder but when an indie game has incest stuff great job internet.

[@David280GG]

Twitter specifically

[@NastyVix]

@@David280GG indeed

[@Aleutica]

A massive issue I've noticed with online discourse lately is people not understanding the difference between bad characters and bad people. You can like a bad character because they're well written, but that doesn't mean you'd condone the same actions of a bad person irl. It just means you find them interesting or engaging in some way in a fictional setting.

[@notsostealthmission5184]

17:18 I think the point here is that Ashley and Andrew are the ones who “haven’t had many interactions with people”. Which actually makes sense regarding their character and circumstances.

[@Junya01]

No, pretty sure that’s just cringe dialogue. The point of the tv lines were to show their banter being foul mouthed and sibling-like, but it comes off as the creator, Numlei, just not having a good grasp on how peeps in their circumstance would actually talk in a situation like that. Especially cuz it’s so mundane that it doesn’t warrant a dramatic response But yea main point is that if u want aggressive sibling dialogue, the way it comes off here is very awkward and forced. Numlei isn’t trying to show that their banter with each other is awkward and forced, that makes no sense, so it’s just her writing some cringe dialogue. That’s all

[@ch4rliegaming]

We have devolved to a point 4chan users look like saints in comparasion to twitter users

[@tides8464]

The problem I have with the incest route is the fact that it's the only thing in the game that the characters take seriously completely going against the entire point of the game in which despicable actions are waved away by the characters as a "whatever." Just saw your sister kill someone in cold blood? "Whatever." Just killed someone for the first time in your life? "Whatever." Getting held at gunpoint by your daughter and tied up in a basement? Treat it as a mild inconvenience. See your son draw a pentagram from your own blood under you? "Don't care." However, as soon as incest is mentioned by any character, they all of a sudden get extremely disgusted. Even Ashley, who literally cooked and ate her parents with enthusiasm 10 minutes ago seems midly disgusted by it, even giving you the option to openly denounce it. In the context of the game, it becomes a big deal because the characters in the game make it one. I don't know why the creator of the game decided to draw the line here, other than milking out the horrible love troupe of "I don't really like you that way 🥺👉👈" for weird ass incest mfs which is highly likely to include the author for this reason. In short, if the incest part of the game was handelled as non-chalantly as the rest of the messed up stuff in the game, I don't think people would have as much of an issue with that part.

[@uxydra6403]

Idk tho, like besides andrew the other characters didnt really make a big scene of it. Well the mom did, but she didnt even really know what the characters did otherwise. A more consistent tone would be better tho

[@evalyne1105]

Maybe that says more about society as a whole. Cause it certainly does depict society. “Cannibalism? Understandable. Incest? UNACCEPTABLE!!!”

[@MnemonicHeadTrip]

It makes absolutely zero sense why they would be so disgusted by it or why it would be such an out of the way route considering how the two are always flirting even outside of that route. Clearly the game's creator inserted the weird incest themes into the game itself and not just a specific choice

[@uxydra6403]

@@evalyne1105 joker is that you?

[@tides8464]

@riverscuomo_1464 Exactly, to add on to my point, you can do incest right in games, such as in Crusader Kings 3. Despite the fact that the game has an achievement that requires you to do incest, and the 4 most viewed CK3 video of all time being about incest, the game punishes you severely for being incestuous, with your heirs getting horrible traits and getting -5 to all stats. On top of that, the game rarely forces you to view incest, and when they do, it's to tell you that you can throw them in jail for life and execute them. This is consistent with the tone of Crusader Kings 3, which is a Medieval, game-of-thrones type game, unlike Andy and Lele, whose incentous undertones are inconsistent with the game's tone as a whole leaving the player either confused or (hopefully not) aroused.

[@lazerpie101]

Let me break down my entire timeline of learning about this game: 1. hear about some game where some guy gets manipulated into murder, think "oh, that's a pretty neat concept that could potentially dive into the psychology of abuse" 2. hear about the incest, think "oh, it's some weird fetish thing" 3. not dox someone without a good reason, but rather avoid playing the game involving the thing that weirds me out

[@undyla-chan1675]

I think the problem is that as soon as you heard about the mere mention of incest you immediately assumed it was a "weird fetish thing", how are artists ever meant to create art, you know, the thing that allows us to explore even the darkest corners of the human psyche, if we immediately dismiss anything with those topics as some act of twisted self pleasure from the creator? It gets even worse if the reason it's being done is because maybe the creator has suffered through it as a victim themselves, which is the case with a lot of indie horror media. I seriously don't understand how you or anyone could just jump to a conclusion like that

[@lazerpie101]

@@undyla-chan1675 I think your point is fair, but my opinion was strongly biased by how I heard of the incest. It was very strongly fetishized by the audience, and I can see why after watching the video. It's not treated as a tool of manipulation. It's treated as them bonding in a disgusting way.

[@walmartiancheese4922]

​@@undyla-chan1675incest is a weird fetish thing, there arent many other options

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@walmartiancheese4922Oh come on, you can have depictions of a subject without it being a “weird fetish thing” you can argue if this game does that if you want, but are you really going to call something like Game of Thrones, or even super old tragedies like Oedipus “weird fetish stories”? You can tackle problematic issues without it being some weird fetish.

[@sadfaffsafd6153]

seeing this game blow up as someone who has been following the creator since they were an obscure dev on itch io has been a trip. i remember playing the original demo before it rlly took off n while i immediately picked up on incestuous undertones i dont think the creator originally set out to make an Incest Game. i feel like they just saw it was getting popular n that ppl were shipping andy/leyley so they just went all in to capitalize in on the hype. obviously there's nothing wrong w depicting taboo topics in fiction but there's a difference between actually having something meaningful to say about it vs just wanting to appease your weird 'based incest' coomer fanbase lol. its sad bc imo the creator is capable of making genuinely good games about heavy topics (better half was my favorite) so to see them go down this path was... interesting to say the least lmao

[@jormy49]

interesting insight from someone involved in an earlier era of the game. thanks you

[@luminous3558]

Bro nobody has some moral obligation to educate their players. Especially in a horror game.

[@sadfaffsafd6153]

@@luminous3558 nowhere did i say anything about moral obligation?? but if you put weird shit in your game just for the hell of it you cant get mad at people for finding it weird

[@cristalido3640]

Sorry, but you don't understand the goddamn game if you think the incest is there just to please the fanbase... This is a game about two siblings in a co-dependent relationship that is completely unhealthy, and the whole reason behind the incest is that Andrew ended up developing a taboo attraction towards Ashley as a result of her having no boundaries in his treatment of him, always demanding attention and also comforting him when he had panic attacks from his trauma (to the point that he began faking them just to have her close in that intimate moment for longer), while Ashley fears losing Andrew's attention if he ever falls in love with another woman, so she tried to push him and even tease him in seductive ways in an attempt to break the last barrier, and have Andrew fully dependent on her as soon as she was able to satisfy his sexual needs as well. While Ashley is completely unhinged and her only purpose is to be with Andrew, he does want to cling onto some sense of normalcy despite all of the messed up stuff the two of them did... That's why he tried his hardest to repress his sexual desires and even satisfy them with other women like Julia, but even then, it wasn't the same and that's why he's so frustrated, embrassed and uncomfortable when the bunny is out of the hat and Ashley saw his reaction to the incest vision the two of them had. I seriously cannot understand how people played the two episodes of this game and didn't catch up on that, with the scene of Andrew suggesting Julia that she ties her hair in the same way that Ashley does, or the scene where Ashley says "well, that's another way to keep him around" during the incest ending.

[@sadfaffsafd6153]

​@@cristalido3640 you can overanalyze the game as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that a decent chunk of the fanbase is just blatantly into incest and the creator only seems to encourage them, case in point the infamous 'cry about it' art or all the other times theyve made/endorsed (often nsfw) ship art... if the games themes resonate w you that's cool i guess but i really find it hard to believe that the incest is anything other than the writers/fanbases barely disguised fetish. at the end of the day irdgaf what people are into but lets call a spade a spade lol

[@21Master]

Why are people freaking out over an incest game when it clearly isn't trying to be realistic? There is a literal demon that kills people and the main characters hardly care about most the terrible things being done. Video games should be allowed to have whatever content the creator desires without any large scale backlash (as long as it doesn't contain stuff that would physically damage someone or their belongings like their device) . Don't like the game? You don't have to play it. Sick of seeing certain content on social media? Instead of attacking creators, blame the social media company for not letting you block certain subjects/topics you disagree with.

[@aaronyc2011]

I love how for the entirety of the ch 2 explanation, you have the most calming snowdin town music in the background

[@notyourdaughter666]

it’s totally fine to explore really dark concepts in media. the problem arises when the topic is handled with immaturity, which is what i think the creator did in this case. i think it was handled somewhat alright in the context of the game. but the response to people’s concerns was where it fell apart, and it became clear that it was put into the game purely as shock value. i would also argue that in *my opinion*, the uncomfortable moments in the game (specifically the ones where the two are strangely intimate with eachother) were also handled a bit poorly. you can say as much as you want that “this character is bad!” but you have to actually take the measures to portray that in the game. you can’t just say “this guy is bad” and then have that character do horrible things that are portrayed as “this is so edgyyyy woahhh” instead of “these are bad actions that are clearly wrong and should not be portrayed as good.” i think the best way to describe it as being tone deaf. the game has a tone of “dark humor” rather than being serious.

[@triplecatnip7413]

The game portrays that they're both bad people adequately. It's subtle but it's there. The game even intentionally tries to decieve you. It tries to hide how fucked up Andy by making him look like a doormat manipulated by his evil sister. However if you pay enough attention it turns out to be completely wrong. It's not the game's job to make their wickedness obvious or teach you morals. The game is about exploring Andrew's and Ashley's toxic codependency. We care about their relationship, which is why when it ends with mutual destruction it's a bad ending, and the route where their bond gets stronger feels like a good ending. It's the reason why the game doesn't portray their bad actions as bad.

[@doguezter7047]

​@@triplecatnip7413 Needing the player to be the moral voice of the game, makes the game's morals look weird, because of the lack of moral voice inside the game.

[@JKMX76]

But unfortunately we live in a world where people have to be told something is bad for them to take it that way. Sad because Nobody deserves to be doxxed over what they do with their own fictional characters

[@KingKrouch]

Imagine playing Fallout New Vegas and expecting Obsidian to tell you at every waking moment of the game that Caesar's Legion is bad. Go watch Christian movies or most modern pop culture properties if you want thinly veiled propaganda that treats you like an idiot. @@doguezter7047

[@cristalido3640]

@@doguezter7047 Sorry, but unlike y'all, most horror fans are not babies who need to be fed a dissertation of good and evil by a "moral voice inside the game" to understand the goddamn point of the story... If someone like you played Silent Hill 2, you'll surely come out of it thinking "Waaa the game is saying that murdering my wife it's okayyy". People like you have zero media literacy.

[@LittleNamMan]

I think the game does have some writing issues, as it doesn't seem like the story is going anywhere and we're just watching them go about their journey as they try to survive in whatever way they can. But I think if you take away the incest, then it becomes clear the story is more-so about watching the downward spiral of two siblings as the story focuses more on their relationship than the actual world around them. And in terms of it being a story where their feelings about each other change as the story goes along and they hit a new roadblock, I think it does a decent job. Stories don't need to have a character-driven goal to be good so long as you know what kind of story you want to tell and manage to tell it in a coherent way. It most definitely has its problems, but there is some stuff to gleam here that doesn't make it seem like a complete waste. I think Chapter 2 sets up a lot of stuff that could either prove my point or make the story actually bad. I think the game needs to finish before I give my complete thoughts on the story and how it was hanled. Now regarding the incest. I personally think that whether it's a fetish or not is up to interpretation and I personally can't say it's made to seem that way. While Andrew and Ashley get intimate, the only time it's seen as insestual was with their mom. There are also some things they do in regards to touching that make it seem like it's incest, but again, the entire incest thing is only actually a proven reason if you choose to go down that route. I'm sorry, but if the problem is incest, then simply just don't go down that route. In terms of the game, that's a you problem. The real concerning matter at hand is whether the creator condones those things or not. I would imagine the creator doesn't, but many people seem to think they do like that sort of thing. Without the creator directly stating that they like that sort of stuff, you cannot imply that they do like that without giving evidence. That's an allegation, and allegations like that shouldn't be spread without evidence.

[@jormy49]

I mostly agree about the story, it's hard to review it before it's finished lol. and yeah, we can't condemn people without knowing them and i think people on both sides of the argument are forgetting that. thanks for the comment!

[@LittleNamMan]

@@jormy49 Yeah, no, I feel you. I think that while the game does give off that vibe that the author is making incest into a fetish, we can't gleam that without evidence. Some stuff regarding scenes from the game, and how they treated the backlash definitely could have been handled better on the dev's side to prevent this outcome, but the people doxxing them was never the right thing to do. It's never right under any circumstance. I enjoyed the video, and I think stuff like this definitely deserves discussion.

[@vyllix8546]

i super agree with the interpretation thing you pointed out, doesn't even have to be related to the game but if you see two related characters hugging and think "ew why is there incest" then that's more of a you thing really and the way you view it, of course in the case of this game some scenes have that purpose behind it but if you interpret EVERY interaction between the two main characters of the game then that's more of a you thing and the way you view things in general. i think a good example of that is in chainsaw man, where the mc and another character are literally bathing together after one of them got really messed up and scarred mentally after some events, but even when they are bathing together it's pretty clear the scene isn't supposed to depict something sexual and instead just something intimate, which if you view sexually.. again.. that's more of your interpretation of the events but i might be wrong ey? cuz' y'know... that's just my interpretation! (cheesy, i know)

[@hacker-xf5ey]

Not reading all that.

[@LittleNamMan]

@@hacker-xf5ey Okay, then don't. You're telling me that like you need my permission.

[@trickstab7903]

I always get confused when people flame an indie game for having morally wrong shit in it. Most because the Fallout series is RIGHT there. Like, you can become a Murderous Cannibal Slaver in almost Every single Fallout game, but people never talk about it.

[@sludgeluvr]

YOU GUYS KNOW YOU CAN HAVE THESE KINDS OF DARK TOPICS IN YOUR GAME WITHOUT PROMOTING AND GLORIFYING IT RIGHT 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭the art the creator made of them on twt says a LOT.

[@fatchins9126]

to be fair the game doesnt exactly glorify it and the art on twitter is more of a troll attempt

[@barkingsandwich]

I don't know much about this game but I see it has a shitton of swear words and unreasonably overly smug looking characters so I'm automatically not a fan

[@EpikBirb]

Helluva B

[@barkingsandwich]

@@EpikBirb not a fan of that one either

[@candydream16]

literally every anime with a smug anime girl s3xually h4rrassing the most boring guy on the planet who just wants to be left alone

[@barkingsandwich]

@@candydream16 not really related to the game but I genuinely dislike plots where a character is constantly harassing or stalking their crush, it ain't funny but instead weird as heck, yet I noticed a good amount of pieces of media do that

[@pandascanrun]

@barkingsandwich to me its just annoying

[@puppet8495]

I've never heard of this game, so I wouldn't exactly call it MOST controversial game of 2023 (think that goes to Fear & Hunger cuz of all of the unavoidable R*pe scenes), but I would say that the controversy from this game probably impacted it's creator the most.

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

Though I'd say the two F&H games are actually good and it didn't exactly draw nearly as much fan dumb last I checked.

[@platinumg.8614]

I think there is a difference where Fear & Hunger is intended to be gross while this game can feel its is making incest acceptable in a edgy way

[@puppet8495]

@platinumg.8614 that's besides the point, it stil drew more controversy, and ultimately, those scenes add nothing to the story

[@ludwigvangaming1822]

​@@platinumg.8614 I believe this game is intended to be gross too. But, to be honest, I don't follow the developer nor do I see what the community posts, nor do I actually even have Twitter. Also you can't possibly argue that this game is worse than Fear and Hunger.

[@platinumg.8614]

@@ludwigvangaming1822 If we mean the topics that each one handle yeah, Fear and Hunger has a lot of controversie ones. But I am more refering the use of these topics.

[@OneManCast]

I uh... Didn't search this. KZbin recommended it to me.

[@SZombiie]

I think the art style is very cute and after the twitter shitshow I was starting to think I should start expecting something completely nauseating like "Dipper goes to tacobell" or whatever that shit was called, but nope, turns out it was just NPC karens getting mad at fiction yet again, especially considering all the other taboo subjects in game and the fact that you have to actively go looking for the incest. These people genuinely have nothing else to do but be chronically online while actively seeking out someone to destroy bc they're less developmentally able compared to a 3-5 year old who is able to differentiate real life from fiction.

[@a.t.9197]

I came across "Greg goes to tacobell"- absolutely disgusting. Is ___ goes to taco bell actually a disgusting trend?

[@gamingtmans6692]

The game is probably good judging by the fact it even has a widespread fandom. However, from the bits and pieces I've seen of the game and its fandom on twitter, you can NOT fucking convince me that the dev and a portion of the fanbase does not have an incest kink/fetish. That simple fact alone just turns me away from the game entirely.

[@_____._..--_]

Filtered casual normie

[@yolkoholic]

​​@@_____._..--_I disagree with this comment, but good lord your reply makes you sound like a 4chan no life.

[@Ruby...X]

Same, I'm not a fan of the game at all (because i just don't find it interesting) but it's actually done well and it's not shoving the incest stuff in your face(even thought it's pretty obvious) but clearly the people who are in this community have some strange stuff going on. And the developper aswell.

[@PosthumanHeresy]

@@Ruby...X Good. Art by normal people is shit like The Big Bang Theory.

[@EpikBirb]

@@_____._..--_ Erm, well meme'd my fellow kek warrior! Here's your Reddit gold, kind stranger!

[@UdoTeddybear]

Ah- just as I expected when I saw the bashing of this game spread on socials. People seem to have forgotten what exactly it means to glorify something. It definitely feels like a more ‘Dead dove, don’t eat’ then someone analyzing and trying to understand the perspectives of humans with no humanity. I believe these dark topics should’ve been better handled than a quick fanfic-like game :/

[@undyla-chan1675]

I think the simplicity of the game is actually perfect to illustrate those dynamics. I think the whole simplified pov is a projection of how the characters (and awful people like them irl) see the world, and stuff like that is also done majorly in other things like menhera styles or other (mostly Japanese) art forms in which something is portrayed as cutesy and fun but has a much darker underlying narrative. It is up to the viewer to pick up on the details sprinkled throughout that tell you "this is wrong, there is something wrong" instead of them being fed to you directly

[@abithefallenhuman921]

"Dead dove, don't eat", just means, "Read the warnings, what you see if what you get" In this games case, having a warning for violence and dangerous relationships isn't just meaning the Sims 4 "Has sexual themes" warning, they're being serious about it

[@UdoTeddybear]

@@undyla-chan1675 Im unsure. The tumblr like humor and the extreme exaggerations being portrayed makes such a topic feel... off? Though, I admit I havent played the game nor am I planning to, so I dont know the full context and setting of the game. As for the styles of menhera, yami kawaii, landmine, and others, these all center around mental health. The focus of oneself, not harm brought to others. All originated in Japan due to the extreme societal standards they have on mental illnesses and the harm caused by those standards. Though i guess thats a 'erm- actually-☝🤓' nerd moment for me- I do really enjoy those styles ^^;;

[@UdoTeddybear]

@@abithefallenhuman921 I am confuse by your reply?(/gen) That is what I meant when i said 'dead dove, dont eat', you are getting exactly what you have read. I used this term to describe it since the fanfics I have read tagged with it tends to be more centered around the action/occurrence than the mental state of the victims. Sure, we get to see some light into their thought process but the game is about what they are doing and their relationship, not an analysis of why someone(s) would do these actions.

[@morganwithaneevee246]

”I haven’t played the game, nor do I plan to, but I think the story would fit my reading/writing preferences better.”

[@londonmonitor16]

The cannibalism part i can understand because another character who utilized cannibalism because they were starving was Jacob Seed from Far Cry 5, his squad was lost and he had to eat his squadmate JUST to survive.

[@gunman598]

But did he make a grilled cheese from it

[@Dibdab9303]

and now I bury this game into the dark recesses of my mind, never to be dwelled upon again for a long, long time.

[@wetsock6539]

I personally think the incest was unnecessary and poorly written into the plot as well as not taken seriously. Yes, Andy and Leyley are bad people, and yes, they do bad things, but this isn't about the characters. It's about the creator. It takes the incest and makes a "funny haha" joke out of it and honestly just romanticizes it instead of treating it as the serious problem that it is. The writing feels very corny and 2014 reminiscent of a certain animators jokes about the r word. An actually good representation (showing off how bad it actually is instead of not taking it seriously) of incest is My Eyes Deceive. Although it's left to interpretation, it's pretty heavily implied that the characters in that game are family. Honestly, I hate how the only route where they get along is an incest route like can't we have a normal route that doesn't involve them getting freaky yet still getting along?? It's pretty stupid to me tbh.

[@shadowmana]

They absolutely can get along without the incest part. Since you have the choice of two doors one of which is the incest door, and the other being the not incest door

[@Reset2150676]

i ant reading all that

[@pumpkinwarrior7138]

@@shadowmanathere’s still incestious subtext throughout the game even if you don’t go into the sister door

[@wetsock6539]

kay why ess@@Reset2150676

[@wetsock6539]

Yes?? But they do not get along in that route?? Clearly you haven't played the game lmaooo@@shadowmana

[@deathseekr1537]

I rate it a 5.5/10, its dumb, but sometimes can be funny, the game its 100% not for everyone the characters are not good or healthy people, but incest was only in one ending, and ive done worse in different video games, by choice, insest aint my thing, it feels likea horrorible version of a tim burton esk tumblr artist, don't doxx anyone unless they're actually a criminal, however in the next chapter i hope Andrew decapitates leyley and i hope the creator is doing okay

[@Charolette_Katakuri]

people seem to be really pissed about the OPTIONAL BAD ENDING having incest when you can't "accidentally stumble upon it" without actually going for the incest ending.

[@ajdndbdjbdj]

Even the game tells you"are you REALLY sure you want to go into this route?"

[@CheeseStopCEO]

The coffin of fort and nite

[@jormy49]

Now this, I can get behind

[@flunkskunk]

As someone who doesn’t consume any horror-related media (yes, I’m a pussy), I don’t really see how this is the game to spark controversy. Isn’t the point of horror to make you feel unnerved? Why is a horror story about terrible people doing horrific actions suddenly “the worst thing ever”? It’s not like the game is glorifying it (sane route / ‘highly questionable’ route). It’s so confusing like, isn’t this what people signed up for??

[@flunkskunk]

Somehow I was able to stomach it enough, and again, I do not like horror-related media. Idk, maybe it’s a me thing, considering the amount of awful shit you hear people do irl.

[@Abbinal]

Because this game came off as a fetish disguised as a horror game.

[@ibraheemshuaib8954]

​@flunkskunk most horror games try to scare you, it's actually relatively uncommon to find a horror game that tries to make you disgusted, this is one of em.

[@lucidlywaking7286]

These indie horror games like ddlc, omori, coffin. seem to attract very mentally unstable audiences.

[@legi0n930]

why do I love all the games you mentioned? 🥲

[@keyscored3710]

I like all of these games oh no

[@Idrk_TBH0]

I love the really dark themes that surround the game such as the literal cannibalism (Except the HEAVY incest themes, that can go fuck off 🤢)

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

"I can excuse cannibalism, but I draw the line at incest"

[@AsianV1nce]

“This Looks like a good horror game I’ll play it” *sees incest scene* “hell no” *leaves bad review and deletes game*

[@marcinmcula99]

Chad

[@M09ZIE]

the biggest issue i have with this game is how the siblings relationship is shown even before i even knew it was an "incest game" the way the characters interacted or looked when they talked made it uncomfortable and the flashbacks shown didnt help. without even knowing this came contained incest it was very easy to pick up on it but i feel as though it sort of failed to make it feel as if it wasn't being fetishized or glorified ykwim?

[@nojoke449]

I know exactly what you mean. That’s exactly why I don’t like the game. I feel like it fails to show how harmful and disgusting incest is. The only time it shows it as bad is when you literally go for the incest end. That’s why it’s so easy for the fans to say “hah incest game”. If you played the game 12 minutes you could see how they use incest as a plot but still show you how disgusting and morally wrong it is.

[@Am-mr8nq]

Yeah, I'm not the only one who think that in the first chapter their relationship and the art are giving that vibe. Then the chapter two come out. I'm not surprised lol.

[@spanoguy2283]

exactly how I felt too

[@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj]

​@@Am-mr8nq Not surprised? What happens in it?

[@willowsprinkle]

@@Am-mr8nq yeah, exactly! as soon as I saw the artstyle/design of the characters and then the dialogue... I immediately knew this would lead to incest. These tumblr-weird-fanfic stink is all over this project

[@waterbears9874]

My main issue is not that it presents incest, its more about how its presented. like if it werent for the fact the art style is so cute and the character designs look the way they do, id be more inclined to believe this game has more of a point, but i cant help but think its barely thinly veiled softcore fetish content. like do i believe the creator deserved to be harassed and doxxed? not even close, but i still think the hate and disgust isnt 100% unwarranted when theyre saying theyre trying to present serious issues, but the presentation just makes it seem like some 13 year olds genderbent jeff the killer fan fic from 2012. idk if im getting what i mean across, but hopefully it makes sense. like if it was implied they were getting into certain situations or described through text id be willing to cut it some more slack, but the fact it kinda shows it and the way its drawn is so cute/appealing just makes it harder to truly believe there werent other motives, though again this doesnt mean they deserved to be doxxed edit: like yeah, it kinda is no different from some random fanfic, it's just presented through a much more popular medium so it got more attention. Like i still have my problems and i think people who are using the "well presenting incest isnt wrong" defense need to look at how its being presented, but its not THAT big of a deal like people think it is. ik this comment is way too long, autism joke here, but i really do kinda like the background and sprite art and color pallets, im a sucker for creepy cute stuff

[@liv.s.]

imo using the art style to judge is pretty unfair, given that is just their art style, and they're not gonna change it entirely for one game (they made the colors muted/toned down compared to other games but that's it)

[@maxmocs5008]

@@liv.s. Perhaps, but when that style is associated with a certain group, it can sort of ask for trouble. It's unfortunate because devs should just be able to make games in the art style they want to, but I think one has to be consciencious of the crowd it will attract to tell the story you want to appropriately. If you look at the game's fandom it's pretty obvious a great deal of it's fans missed the point.

[@justanotheryoutubewatcher230]

I always thought Leyley was pronounced "Lay-lay"

[@Shotapounder]

Thats how most people pronounce it

[@DaRootBeer1231]

Honestly, I find it kinda shocking that people would get this outraged about this. At some level, I feel like people have just become desensitized to a lot of dark themes in games, like murder, rape, excessive violence ext. but incest isn't one of them. As it relates to real life, nearly everyone agrees that these all the themes I just listed are wrong, with basically no exception. But murder and violence especially have become so common place in games that most people have clearly disconnected their real world feeling with their fictional feeling on the issue. People can laugh and joke about killing some guy in a game, while being 100% aware and cognizant that murder is totally wrong. The people who don't make that disconnect are the ones gamers all laugh at for claiming that video games cause violence, because they genuinely think that because someone sees murder in the game and is okay with it, that it's going to bleed into reality in some way. I honestly wonder if in a world where early on in gaming incest was commonplace, just as murder and violence was in the early days of gaming, would people not care about this? And vice versa, if murder and violence wasn't commonplace in the old days of gaming, would people be outraged to see something like Call of Duty and the excessive amount of people who are murdered senselessly. Because I truly do find it odd that despite both incest and murder being reprehensible actions, one is considered so atrocious that a real human’s livelihood was put under threat, while the other doesn't even get a passing thought, and often is even sought out by some people.

[@Neremworld]

Honestly it just seems like someone decided they didn't like a game they didn't play and sent out a call to all of their friends who didn't like this game.

[@Raccon_Detective.]

I wonder where was all this rage for the sweet home Alabama that was in Texas Chainsaw massacre, the hills have eyes, game of Thrones also that optional bear scene in Balder's gate 3? Also in the game you literally have to go put of your way to do very specific things to get the optional Alabama ending while getting a bunch of warnings along the way showing off that it's a bad ending.

[@thunderchief7256]

I completely agree

[@nojoke449]

That Baldurs gate bear scene was played up for laughs fr. Even the sex with the alien clearly was. Not to mention that was only a small part of the game. This game uses incest as a plot. It uses it poorly too. Making it seem funny and cute. Until you actually get the bad end.

[@Raccon_Detective.]

@@nojoke449 Yet no one calls it the bear F-ing stimulator. What do you mean it uses it for the plot? also this isn't the first time a piece of media has had Alabama in it like the other 3 I have mentioned and same could be said about the other 3 stuff I mentioned but no one made a big deal out of it because Twitter wasn't involved. Also that scene in 1992 sleepwalkers movie. That optional scene was a vision that only lasted for seconds which is a small part of the game and one that you can entirely skip.

[@nojoke449]

@@Raccon_Detective. yeah but incest was clearly joked about throughout the whole game without any repercussions tbh. I just thought it could be handled better that’s all. Like how Slient hill did it. Also are you really getting mad at the bear fucking scene? Because Ngl I get it but at the same time it’s not a big part of the story unlike incest try’s to be on this game. Also I haven’t seen the sleepwalker movie at all. Is it good? Rate it for me real quick.

[@Raccon_Detective.]

@@nojoke449 In Texas Chainsaw Massacre they also joked about incest when they said "leather face makes the best babies" I already explained to you how the game shows off that incest isn't a quite good thing.There's more to the game than incest just like how the other stuff I mentioned has incest but they're more to it than that.People only hyper focus on this game's incest because of Twitter. In Rick and Marty they also make incest jokes. I'm not getting mad about the bear scene I'm just pointing out how that's also a taboo subject and it's only a scene in the game. Sleep walkers is a 3/5 (The movie atleast) the reason why I brought it up is because it also ties into what I'm going to say next because if these Twittet folks really did care they would also doxxed Mr King for including incest in one of his works and for that one sewer scene in the "IT" book, I'm bringing it up now because I don't like to talk about it, especially since it's the only one of it's kind and gives more reasons why the Twitter folks would go after Mr King but they don't which only further proves my point. If those Twitter people who started this whole controversy really did care they would too dox, and unleash they're rage in those creators as well but since they don't they won't do that.Doxxing came out of this which something very serious and where the Twitter people went too far. Btw I'm curious, do you think the doxxing of Nemlei?

[@yesanameirequested1682]

"Wow, it's almost like a video game is supposed to be a video game, not something that happens in real life". Not even gonna lie, I have played the "controversial" games, like Postal, Postal 2 and Hatred, and my opinion on them is mainly: they are hard to beat and I also got bored after a few hours or so. Until I got 100 hours on Hatred. But thank the steam workshop for that.

[@SANSGAMINGANIMATES]

The incest in the game is weird but not to the point where doxxing was necessary.

[@Bennett-wj9vg]

*MY HOT TAKE:* I mean, shouldn't incest be seen with pity and concern then anger and disgust? This usually happens due to some type of abuse and psychological issue, which makes people make this mistake. Their sense of trust and logical reasoning is damaged, mainly their their ability to trust others. When siblings ever do...that its caused by a few factors. Namely, they believe they cannot trust anyone else and internalise the belief they only have one option when it comes to romance. When it isn't intentionally caused by a third party, its like self grooming where you and the other convince themselves that love is love and its nothing wrong with it. Except it's not the case. Love can become a coping mechanism, any kind of love, including romance. It's a warm blanket when it's done healthy, but you have to go looking for the right blanket to make that happen. And if you're scared, it becomes hard. And when you're confused, even harder. So, imagine when we get so scared, so confused, and we desperately don't want to feel numb, we latch onto the nearest blanket as a safety net, regardless of the fact we are only hurting ourselves through suffocation and overheating. It shouldn't be ridiculed because that doesn't ever help. It should be addressed, and the appropriate and humane actions must be taken. And we should treat it with care so they can strive to get better and make healthier improvements, little by little; just like anyone with any type of issues. And we shouldn't be hateful and start behaving like monsters. Anyone who acts self-righteous whilse doing atrocious activities are only making excuses to others, and especially themselves, to do these horrid acts. I don't want to be unfair here, it most likely a trigger response, and they just so happen to have the violent kind. However, i don't excuse immaturity, especially for myself, as i have made many mistakes in my life for jumping the gun or not firing at all at the worst of times. I'm trying to fix that, and it's hard. But I'm still gonna try. For anyone who seen this game and feels like this dangerous to everyone and the creator and their supporters should be punished: is it really dangerous for them or for you? I'm not saying you're weak-willd only that people can usually handle themselves given the right experience and maturity. If you feel like others can't handle this game due to bad and blatant themes, ask yourselves why. Why can't they handle it? Is it because you can't? Is it because someone you know can't? And if you believe you won't be influenced, why would anyone else? I'm sorry to say this, but you and I ain't levels above others, and neither is anyone else. We're all bad at something. I know, it's irritating when you feel like injustice is going on in front of your eyes and you want to fix that, but abuse and violence don't fix problems, merely escalating them. So, I believe you can handle this game, I believe others handle this game. We can all handle this game and things like it as it is purely fiction that can only shed light on issues we see every day from around us and within ourselves. Don't see it associate it for a promotion of bad behaviour. See it as a reminder why we shouldn't cross the line and just enjoy the absurdity of it all. Life is strange enough as is, so why not use its oddness for a little fun? Anyway, thank you for reading. Love you all. Sorry for this odd comment, i just needed to state my piece, and i hope you all can state yours, too. I only recommend if you didn't like this as a chance to see a different perspective on things and use this comment as a chance to understand others, if nothing else.

[@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj]

When people are Alabama-ing, I usually heavily question their mental state more than anything. What gets ridicule from me is people that advocate or glorify or romanticize or support it.

[@akumademon2879]

I've seen playthroughs of the game and, to me, the game does not come off as a horror game, but instead a fetish game disguised as a horror game. Of course this is fiction, and I am not opposed to bad events happening in fiction, but I do not feel that the depictions present were very respectful of the subject matter nor treated it with the proper nuance it deserves. I feel the art style and character expressions especially lend towards the fact this is something the author is into... which is just gross.

[@jormy49]

Agreed. The question is whether that merits attacking them lol

[@akumademon2879]

@@jormy49 I don't think that it does, I feel like there are very few cases where doxxing would be justified and this is far from one of them.

[@ferretbutler1326]

​​@@akumademon2879Doxxing is very rarely, if not, never acceptable. Even if the greater is very much a weirdo.

[@akumademon2879]

@@ferretbutler1326 yes I agree, that's what I've been saying.

[@ferretbutler1326]

@@akumademon2879 Yeah. Just enforcing it for anybody in the comment section. You know how hardheaded fans of this game are and some want to assume anybody who goes against it is for doxxing.

[@TheNikola2018]

idk is it controvesial but the fandom is cursed and i think it was better when the fandom of the game was small as it was in demo release. Not because it got ruined with popularity but because we are already ruining so many fandoms and it is like a joke if you know you know

[@mauretaniafan1133]

Honestly for an RPGMaker game this shit is tame.

[@insertnamehere672]

Well, I usually enjoy watching these type of essay videos to pass the time or fall asleep to... (Specially when they involve more interesting or less disturbing events on real life or that mention affecting people) Beyond that, I enjoy this type of format that your content goes into. I would even watch (or hear) more of it if it involved more niche or less "drama focused" content.

[@JakobLastname]

Love people freaking out about incest in a video game when other games have had it before, and Fear and Hunger has rape, murder, and gore.

[@Rachel-cm8ks]

Me who played mogeko castle, wadanohara and other okegom games seeing this and being like "that's all"?

[@CarrotSpunk.]

Same I think funa's work is far from being tame as this lol.

[@metazoxan2]

I liked the game. The fact the main characters absolutely get screwed over, do terrible things to survive, but them proceed to do even more insane things as they seemingly go into a downward spiral of sanity ... was interesting. Like if they ONLY ate the one guy killed by the demon, killed the guards who were clearly organ harvesting the residents, and ran away ... then it would be fine. But eating their parents is definitely the point where they cross the point of no return. Not counting the murder Ashley commited as a child anyway. This is why the game's so interesting because you ... kinda want to root for them given the raw deal they get. But they also do unforgivable things. So ultimately it's just interesting to see where it all goes.

[@sr.brigadeiro7718]

i feel the same

[@HowieDewitt535]

It showed up in my Steam discovery queue and now YT recommended me this. Never even seen your channel before lol

[@nurkan2197]

No way you can see the top searched-up things by the viewers.😮

[@jormy49]

Analytics is a heck of a thing

[@Viberi-Toad47]

I think it was confirmed that they got doxed by a troll group

[@Darkrift4ever]

You are such a big inspiration to an aspiring KZbinr looking to get into video essays. Thanks for the great content :D

[@MadokaTokisaki]

A horror game about awful people doing awful things has scenes that make people uncomfortable? Gee I wonder why a *Horror* game might do that? How odd...

[@cxutie.p1e]

this video is actually the best post I’ve come across talking about this game. It’s straightforward while still entertaining and you make a lot of good points at the end!! Ur vids are so underrated and I hope u get more of the attention u deserve!! :3

[@cristalido3640]

I suggest you want the two videos DandyDNA made of this game, since those videos actually give a shit about exploring the narrative in-depth, and the psychology behind the characters... Not to mention the reason behind the incest.

[@TayDoesStuff]

Twitter makes it sound way worse than it is

[@SapoS3ringa]

Americans will give a pass to warcrime simulators like Call of Dutty, but somehow concensual sex is to much for them.

[@AngelSanchez-yv1kr]

something i dont understand about andrew and ashleys decision when making demonic rituals was that if they understand the fact that demons exist then obviously angels and god exist too. so what do they plan to do when they inevitably die at some point in time. they really didnt think this through that much

[@liv.s.]

ngl if i lived in their world i would just think god is dead at that point 😭

[@AngelSanchez-yv1kr]

@@liv.s. or that god just doesnt care

[@liv.s.]

@@AngelSanchez-yv1kr that would fit the best in the universe lmfao

[@FuzzyNaiyalism]

It's more that they don't care. The demon has tangibly proven it's existence and given them a cool trinket that saved their lives once. God or angels have done nothing. They also didn't have much in terms of morals before the demon summoning. Ashley from early childhood was fine with murder if it helped keep Andrew with her, and Andrew fell into his own obsession with Ashley as a result.

[@AngelSanchez-yv1kr]

@@FuzzyNaiyalism well it would be interesting to see them talk about a point in time in which they will inevitibally die. Will they be dreadful or just nihilistic about it?