The Most Whitewashed Character In Literary History

[@Account_Not_Applicable]

Lindsay Ellis: everything inevitably leads back to Transformers or Phantom of the Opera

[@dan_tr4pd00r]

[See how I glitter intensifies]

[@Azmodeus87]

imagine, a Transformers of the Opera. Oh no, Starscream is gonna be the phantom isn't he?

[@williameyelash8053]

Orrrr Hércules

[@sarge019l4]

@carlos Rivas Excuse me, my self loathing has nothing to do with my politics. Thank you very much.

[@sarge019l4]

@carlos Rivas Oh, I get it. You're a prick.

[@michaelwilliamybarra2409]

Just to clarify: In the book, Christine doesn't kiss him on the lips, making out like in the musical, she kisses him on his forehead to signify compassion. This is what brings Erik to his senses, as he never received something human as a kiss(and a kiss, PERIOD) from someone before because of his face, not even from his own mother. He responds by giving her a kiss on the forehead back, which is something he has never did for anyone either, even for his mother, as they would run away if he tried ALSO cause of his face. He also makes her promise to return the golden ring when she buries him, which he then gives to her, and she presumably does so and buries him in a spot where his remains can never be found, by his request.

[@Mr.Monacle]

So uh... feel the need to post a reply in explanation in case you got a notification for the previous one, I had my phone in my pocket so I could listen to the video at work and that's why the now deleted comment looks so random

[@MisterNinten]

Petition to have Lindsay Ellis make her own version of Phantom of the Opera

[@whoisthisperson8454]

Thatneslper all the characters will be played by her

[@blakimusmaximus]

Starring Oliver Thorn :)

[@friendstastegood]

@@blakimusmaximus Also Hbomb, Contrapoints, Dan, Mara Wilson

[@chavesa5]

I would no-joke watch a straight dramatic version written by her

[@s.l.thecoffeeaddict1657]

Oh. My. Gosh.

[@TheWildwest666]

"I should make a video about characters of color who are secretly white." I know that was meant as a joke, but I'd actually watch that.

[@Bleuryder]

I'm down with this too. She should totally do it.

[@doll_dress_swap12]

Yes please.

[@AnnoyingAsianWitch]

Yes yes yes

[@blofeld39]

I think she's doing it -- she just live-Tweeted her watch of "The Son of the Sheik", starring Rudolph Valentino.

[@MzyraJ]

If she does, I wonder if it ties back to another story tradition in history, where you'd have a poor hero of low birth and a high born lady might get feelings for him - but oh, It's alright, turns out he was secretly noble all along, which also kind of explains how he was so great in the first place! Can't challenge the social order now, can we?

[@Hollyberrystreats]

"So legalized rape is the done thing here" Uh...Eric, do you really hold the moral high ground on sexual assault?!

[@Troublethecat]

I mean to be fair, this is supposed to be back before he became the Phantom while he was still in Persia. Also this is very clearly an adaptation that's making him way more heroic than in the original book.

[@sidnew2739]

Even in the original book, Erik never raped Christine.

[@mieshocked1450]

Yes, he does. He never r*p*d anyone and never would. And depending of the version you're seeing, Erik is the one actually violated. Banalizing SA just because you dislike a man, who btw is a survivor, is wrong. Hope that helps ❤

[@aacsmiles]

Boy, that opening text... It sure is rich seeing Erik being portrayed as someone who vehemently opposes the objectification of women...

[@meryemkbm]

definitely no irony in there!

[@cherryspice1011]

aacsmiles he truly is a *white knight*

[@23Koneko]

He seems to be written like such a stereotypical Nice Guy I couldn't help but laugh with how he was horrified by how the women were treated when its like, oh boy is he in for a shock some 20 odd years down the road. Not to mention like martial rape was a thing even in Europe sooo... Actually a modern day version of this would be with Eric and the other twat being Nice Guys while accusing each other of being the Chad and the Persian being the ordinary guy wonder how he got dragged into this mess.

[@Devilot109]

HOLY FUCK YES.

[@Tareltonlives]

#niceguy

[@MrHydesAlterEgo]

Ok, but how about Lindsay Ellis direct a version of Phantom of the Opera where all the characters are played by Transformers.

[@Tareltonlives]

I'd totally watch that.

[@oldfrend]

christine: starscream in a curly brunette wig. THINK OF ME. THINK OF ME FONDLY

[@ThePa1riot]

oldfrend In his high pitched screech. XD Oh God, fund this!

[@ThePa1riot]

Soundwave crouched over his keytar. “Cold, unfeeling light, inferior. Music of the night, superior.”

[@Zimisce85]

Car-washed characters?

[@MissPoplarLeaf]

It's funny that Susan Kay's "Phantom" portrayed Erik as the woke one, when in the original novel he's an incel who happily participates in torturing people. Meanwhile, the Persian is a relatively decent and moral person. Super ironic.

[@VolvagiasBlaze]

of course she did, she's gotta make Phantom more fuckable

[@23Koneko]

Also makes you wonder if Kay was even aware of European/American history and how it saw POCs and women at this time or even farther back. Because men had to get permission to marry their love interest from her father or closest male relative. Or did she just decide to ignore that or make Eric "woke" by not viewing women like that to make Persia come across as the corrupter who made him into the bad, bad man we know and hate?

[@Jackaxed]

more like conveniently racist

[@candycane1744]

And kind of a yandere

[@Tareltonlives]

Funny thing how these "Draco in leather pants" takes are always kinda racist

[@DPWFG]

Oh man, the Korean Drama, The Heirs had my favourite depiction of a Californian. A surfer dude with long hair who was so obsessed with Coke he stole a bag of soy flour, ripped it open mid-run and snorted it. Then promptly went into anaphylactic shock because he was allergic to soy.

[@Birdfreak2010]

DPWFG that was my favorite American depiction from all the Korean dramas I have seen because of its sheer stereotyping! Also the “I’m too lazy” trope they added to the surfer dude haha

[@Jaspertine]

This is the first I've ever heard of this... and I think I have a new favourite thing.

[@kerrychristensen7204]

😂 *WHAT?!* 😂

[@DPWFG]

@@Birdfreak2010 ah yes, that part too. I was dying... Also, the American actor was so BAD. It was amazing.

[@iamknife7]

As a Californian, this sounds accurate.

[@jjj7790]

There’s just something I find really charming about the original version of the Daroga, which is the sort-of implication that the reason why his name isn’t printed in the book is because he has ties to the Persian royal family and it could spark an international incident. The idea of one of the most morally good characters in the story having a identity so heavy that his name has to be censored like a SCP in this expose about a secret musical super-assassin is just the cherry on top of all of the other crazy shit that happens in the story. Ah yes, our main characters Erik, Christine, Raoul, and [REDACTED].

[@francoeurvalparaiso]

He had to be part of the dynasty, 'cause he wouldn't receive any of the treasure if not. But you have a GREAT POINT. How I couldn't see it. In the book NONE of the names of the qajar dynasty are mentioned. Nasser ed din, the shah, fakhr ol molouk, the little sultana. So why the Persian's name would be mentioned if none of those names were? You have a GREAT point, thank you :'D

[@sovietcanuckistanian]

"Phantom shitposting is finally a thing and I am the god" I for one welcome our new phantom based overlord.

[@bemasaberwyn55]

And I volunteer as tribute

[@danilarsson8685]

I second this motion.

[@MrHades-vm2hm]

It is quite ironic that looks like almost everyone tried to change or blur an Iranian/Persian character, but the actor who is consider as "the best" phantom is Ramin Karimloo who is Iranian.

[@maxschrader3884]

Mr. Hades funny how that works

[@jasayehan]

Such a hottie!

[@TheReddShinobi13]

Ramin Karimloo and Norm Lewis are the best Phantoms in my personal opinion

[@francoeurvalparaiso]

Ramin have voice, I won't deny it. But Charles Dance is my favourite Erik, he have the personality xd I loved him before reading the book (the original one, Leroux's one) and now I love him even more 'cause he's the most accurate to the book more than others. Charles Dance's version, btw, is the mini serie of two chapters from 1990

[@HaydenofEverything]

Ramin is our favorite incel organist

[@newsystembad]

And here I thought the modern idea of a harem was a bumbling, whitebread Japanese guy surrounded by a horde of thirsty women who all inexplicably want him despite his utter blandness.

[@Ren_NCTzen]

a Tenchi Muyo reference in the year 2020

[@Eric_The_Cleric]

I have heard of a few ideas about what a "harem" is but I'm still confused on the word's actual meaning. -.-

[@patrickshields6954]

@John Benko Thank you for the explanation. My main concept of the word harem is from Japanese media, so significantly different from the actual practice in the orient.

[@mastermarkus5307]

@Cynical Frenchface Eh, it's just one of those "generic animated face" things. Japanese people tend to see those characters as Japanese-looking while a lot of white people see them as "white".

[@3Rayfire]

@@mastermarkus5307 It's called Mukukoseki, which basically means "raceless". Which is why Sailor Moon is absolutely considered Japanese despite visually being a blonde, blue eyed, white girl. The color of hair is a distinguishing factor, and the big eyes are actually the Japanese emulation of classic Disney animation styles and rules. Compare to classic Japanese art styles and you can clearly see the demarcation and how their art has changed. This is shown in the live action Sailor Moon show (Pretty Guardian I think it's called) where in their normal form they are all regular Japanese girls only taking on their canonical color schemes in Sailor mode.

[@heatherysnicket]

I wrote a Master's thesis on Orientalism and its effect on US counter-terrorism practices and I constantly wish Orientalism was talked about more in public discourse. Thank you for tackling it.

[@gateauxq4604]

Especially since Boomers just 👏CAN’T👏STOP👏SAYING👏IT

[@yaya-mk3nn]

heatherysnicket seriously wishing i could read that thesis

[@shoepixie]

Me too!

[@crstph]

wait yea fr did u publish it anywhere/if u didnt do u have a link to a google doc lol id love to read that

[@heatherysnicket]

@@crstph Shoe the Pixie, Natalia Soto - wow, thanks for your interest! I never thought my errant YT comment would make anyone want to actually read it. It is published on ProQuest and is supposed to be open access (since I hate academic publishing gatekeeping), but I had a heck of a time finding an actual link to it. I'll have to see what's up with that. In the meantime I have it hosted on my website: heatherfrizzell.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/frizzell-orientalism-bostonmarathonbombing.pdf

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

"The Crusades: A Thing That Happened." My medieval history professor insisted that was a bad title for my essay back in 2005.

[@85set05]

Fuck off "A thing that happend" is way to awsome of a subtitle to be allowed.

[@amanzeihedioha]

Did you pass? What was the new one called?

[@pattymelt03]

cheezemonkeyeater maybe you needed parenthesis instead of a “:” so it’s more comedic

[@digitaljanus]

@@mr98christian Yeah, because other than Frederick II, the Crusaders were all incompetent at war, diplomacy, rulership, and statecraft.

[@moredetonation3755]

The Crusades: A Clusterfuck in Mount & Blade

[@theultimatejojo]

I literally burst into laughter everytime we get that cut of Gerard Butler singing "Darkness deep as HEEEELLLLLL"

[@DarthRayj]

"Singing" I believe the correct verb is *yelling*

[@kronemerj]

Heeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllagh

[@xxkewldudexx]

@@DarthRayj Mooing, more like.

[@LocutusBorgOf]

How hard can it be to properly sing an A flat, lol

[@xxkewldudexx]

@@LocutusBorgOf If you're a baritone (like he clearly is), pretty hard.

[@robinm1331]

The thing that struck me about Christine when I read the book years ago was how grounded her character actually was compared to, say, Raoul. That's definitely something most adaptations flip. Which is mindboggling to me. How is it that modern adaptations play more to stereotype with both her and the Persian compared to a book that was written over a hundred years ago???

[@LindsayEllisVids]

Red Lethe yes, book Christine owns, represent

[@dizzyd603]

YES. I was really hoping she'd peace out at the end of the book with nobody, off to see the world or something.

[@robinm1331]

Based on Life Experiences I definitely see the book in a much different light than I did in high school. Back then it was kind of a pre Twilight Twilight. That's definitely the direction adaptations have taken it, anyway. I still love many of them, but the story is very different for me. It's much more of a parable about stalking and gaslighting. That would actually be a really interesting thesis to read if someone hasn't done it already.

[@neuralmute]

@@dizzyd603 I've always wanted to write an adaptation where Christine tells the boys to grow the fuck up, she's not marrying anybody because she's rather focus on her career! (And maybe Meg...) Oh, and the Persian *IS* actually in the 25th Anniversary film; he's playing The Phantom. (I'll see myself out.)

[@jackiep594]

Exactly! Christine is pragmatic and Raoul cries ( it is good to remember tho that his older brother was being murdered at the time 😬)

[@MisterDareBear]

I've never once in my life cared about Phantom, but I deeply enjoy every Phantom-related video or diatribe you put out simply because the fandom and cultural impact surrounding it and its history are so endlessly FASCINATING.

[@Innengelaender]

Same. I dont know or care much about most topics Lindsay talks about but still really enjoy these deep dives into media and how they fit into the context of their time. Fascinating indeed.

[@GunnGuardian]

I'm with you pal. Lindsey makes this tangent super interesting.

[@swanpride]

Same. And now I am wondering how harems actually looked like and worked….

[@AnonymousRandomDude]

I find it hilarious how in the musical, the Phantom uses the monkey to help him compose his music. The depiction of a modern equivalent would be a Soundcloud producer playing with one of those Fisher-Price toys that goes "the cow says moo," and then going, _"inspired!"_

[@Cal94]

KZbin CocoRosie playing "Lemonade" live in studio...

[@foxiepaws]

but like, sometimes it just works that way? like, sometimes i hear old tapes from when i was a kid or those kinds of toys and go... actually i want to sample that and use it in something... so maybe not as absurd as you'd think

[@GonzoCiosain]

I mean, Daniel Johnston sometimes used children's instruments with a bunch of distortion added to them and that actually sounded pretty sick.

[@AnonymousRandomDude]

Rachel Fox - I guess so. Now that I think of it, I have a brother who played in a band and used this plastic toy tambourine from some toddlers music play set as an actual instrument for some of his live shows. It worked pretty well.

[@thefonzkiss]

In no way does he use the monkey music box to “help him compose his music”. The monkey plays the melody of Masquerade, which the Phantom doesn’t write (in universe) or even sing with the rest of the cast. He writes Don Juan Triumphant, from which the only real song we hear is Past the Point of No Return.

[@KrisHatesWorld]

*Me watching this in July 2020* wow, I completely forgot we were on the brink of war with Iran right before the world fell apart.

[@kronemerj]

That kind of says it all doesn't it?

[@User-1939t9]

maybe coronavirus was the real hero all along

[@Realppbutt]

lol

[@Abshir1it1is]

Don’t worry. Tensions have ramped right back up. New boss same as the Old in this regard.

[@R2Parmly]

"Christine, if I might have a word with you?" "What is it?" "It's a unit of language that's shorter than a sentence and longer than a letter. But that's not important right now."

[@tonsolerigarcia]

I both love you and hate you right now. Congratulations.

[@piccolofan24]

Is this an Airplane! reference? 😂

[@tonsolerigarcia]

@@piccolofan24 No, just my own genius shining through. You're talking about the movie, right?

[@xxkewldudexx]

If I hadn't just finished my drink, I would hate you so much. 😂😂😂

[@moonlight4665]

Can you re-write the entire musical?

[@Flamingbob25]

Audible to Lindsay: Hey please when you do this ad read, don't sound like you're being held at gunpoint? Lindsay: Nah

[@SprightlyValentino]

BRAND

[@knate44]

Hey it is profitable authenticity to both accept the cash munz while making fun of sponsorships.

[@selkiesiren1807]

She looks like she's having so much fun recording this video. Let her make as many Phantom videos as she wants.

[@alicethemad1613]

Eric being the absolute most enlightened defender of women in Phantom despite literally kidnapping, drugging, and coercing a teenager into marriage is one of the funniest possible things.

[@Mrs.Magix58]

she's not a teenager in anything but the shitty early 2000s movie.

[@SophieKnickerbocker]

Christine is in her 20s or an unspecified age in every version besides the 2004 version

[@alicethemad1613]

Oh man I thought she was like 16 in the book whoops. Point stands still.

[@TheLewistownTrainspotter8102]

@@Mrs.Magix58 We've had a few teenage Christines in the West End production.

[@cariocaemfuria3946]

"Phantom of the Mall?" OMG! Now I want a 2020s adaptation where Christine is an Instagram Model/You Tuber, Raoul is the younger brother of an Entertainment CEO and the Phantom is an Internet Forum Incel.

[@potternutmania]

That... actually sounds like it has potential...kind of like the lizzie bennet diaries/emma approved - modern day phantom 😮

[@jenniferlee9577]

omg this is the new lizzie bennet diaries!!!!!!!

[@donutsandgravy3150]

Sounds sort of like a hallmark movie. Then again, I haven’t seen phantom of the opea, so I don’t really have a leg to stand on.

[@ryanahr2267]

Yeah when she mentioned that I immediately thought of that episode of...I think it was Goosebumps? Or maybe Are You Afraid of the Dark. Anyway, one of the two did their own 20-ish minute take on it where the story took place in a high school that was putting on the Phantom. Super meta and pretty fun.

[@ewicanteven3741]

@@ryanahr2267 it was a goosebumps episode haha! The episode/book is titled "Phantom of the Auditorium"

[@indigoblack396]

Honestly, now I just want a Phantom of the Opera adaptation that focuses on The Persian and Phantom's relationship. It seems like they had a complicated friendship/history with each other that would be interesting to see explored. Plus, I feel like it would be a good way to breath new life into the story as we get a chance to explore this classic tale that a lot of people are already familiar with from a different angle. I feel like you would defiantly have to be very mindful of avoiding harmful stereotypes and very outdated ideas of Persia. However, it could also provide a chance to reflesh that part of the story to reflect a much more accurate idea of what Persian culture was like back in the day and rework parts of Eric's backstory in Persia to not fall back into those more negative tropes about the area.

[@justinokraski3796]

perhaps conflicting versions of their time in Persia (ie Eric embellishes the immoral things done and the Persian tries to cover it up)

[@mattpaxton3528]

It would be good to see, but I can already picture the number of anime characters on Twitter railing against this "inserted Persian SJW rubbish" that's being "shoved down their throats".

[@blofeld39]

Basically, just look on Tumblr. It's so good for stuff about the love/hate relationship between the Persian and Erik -- they're like an old bickering couple.

[@purpleghost106]

@@blofeld39 That actually makes me extremely sad. I do Not want m/m romance tropes pasted onto the Persian and Erik. I want the a story recognizing the abusive-friendship for what it is. "My friend is a creep. It took years, but I finally realized I don't have to cover for him. I can be FREE" Where the Persian escapes the guilt complex of feeling like since he saved Erik from death he's now responsible for all the harm Erik does, and instead finds happiness for himself. And yeah, maybe clues Christine about the Bad News Boy along the way.

[@blofeld39]

@@purpleghost106 I mean, it's more a sort of knowing depiction of what must've been going on between them in the whole interim -- semi-light-hearted, the sort of stuff fans see and recognize for what it is, I think.

[@jmlkinc]

Further cementing the point about twisted meanings with the metaphor about aliens basing an understanding of America on Nickelback, Nickelback itself is actually a Canadian band. Not American at all.

[@LindsayEllisVids]

I'm glad someone caught the many layers of nuance in "LOOK AT THIS GRAPH"

[@lukeh2556]

It's even funnier when you remember Nickelback got the video in that tweet taken down for copyright

[@Cheerfullychipper]

it's okay, they can have them

[@SavageGreywolf]

@@lukeh2556 think of it this way. It was so despicable that even Nickelback didn't want it sullying their reputation.

[@Jotari]

Canada is in America.

[@ColeArmstrongSF]

I'd say Jesus is the most whitewashed character in literary history. But this comes close

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

THIS COMMENT IS TOO UNDERRATED.

[@APoleYouKnow]

Jews are Middle Eastern, therefore considered white by certain definitions.

[@ColeArmstrongSF]

​@@APoleYouKnow Mayyyybe, but he certainly wasn't pale-skinned with light brown hair and blue eyes, as he is so often portrayed in Europe. Biblical passages describe him as having brown skin and dark hair.

[@porsche911sbs]

​@@morganqorishchi8181 Jesus being black (as in, the endemic race of Sub-Saharan Africa) would be about as wrong as him being white (European). At least, as far as anyone could reasonable speculate. Jesus spoke Aramaic, a Semitic language, and was raised in a country populated largely by Hebrews. However, we don't really know what he looks like, his appearance wasn't described in detail by any contemporaries. A protectorate of the vast Roman Empire, Judea was a place where both blacks and whites traveled through and lived. It's possible that he was darker or lighter than the typical Judean based on the genes inherited by his father. But there's no reason to believe this was the case and certainly no proof of it.

[@NazoPureChaos]

I'd argue Jesus doesn't count for literary history only because he's an actual historical figure. So that would make him the most whitewashed person in all of history, not just literary.

[@stephenpeterson6860]

"The skull-faced incel who lives in the basement" Never again will I be able to think of the phantom without hearing that in my head and chuckling.

[@Unownshipper]

"Who's to say?"

[@videotsavant7553]

@Jen farmer Look, if that's the only possible way for you to reach climax in your isolated, nightly ritual then who are we to judge. Carry on, incel!

[@wafflefalafel9442]

Jen farmer Majority of incels are just average/slightly unattractive guys that could totally get it on if they were like...good people. People w/ deformities are in relationships, and not all people w/ deformities hate women/men because theyre single. Probably cause theyre like...good people? Wow! Don’t know why I’m arguing with a cultist on the internet, tho :/

[@dntskdnttll]

@@wafflefalafel9442 What did the original comment say? If you can remember, lol

[@wafflefalafel9442]

@@dntskdnttll I assume they were making the broad claim that “unattractive” or “deformed” people were more inclined to become incels and that inceldom made sense. Dont know where the cultist part came from, though. Maybe they had scientology in the username? I dont remember lol

[@largeposterior08]

"ALW sucks for other reasons." The fact that this is said over "Beneath a Moonless Sky" playing is *chef kiss*

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

10:51 - 10:55: In case anyone was wondering why she was just staring at the camera for four seconds: it's almost impossible to see because the alpha is so dang low, but the word RACISM appears over Lindsay's face in this shot.

[@GR-kt4le]

Oh wow

[@wellesradio]

Having the Alpha so low it washes out any and all mid-tones is a Lindsey trademark, goddamit! I refuse to believe she is not animated by South Park studios.

[@zeechops401]

Haha omg!

[@briarelyse5136]

Couldn't see the word, but her look said it all ☺

[@blofeld39]

My computer lighting is on the lowest setting, so I could see that big RACISM come into view juuuuust right before the shot cut.

[@annalisasteinnes]

Ironic that the Persians in Susan Kay's book are super awful for giving their sisters away when *no European fairy tale ever had a woman given away as a reward for completing some kind of quest*.

[@idontneedaname318]

People also totally didn't marry off their daughters for political gain

[@greenredblue]

Ugh such a misreading of history, obviously it's different when Europeans did it because *[infuriatingly incoherent white noise].*

[@jimkillerx]

@@greenredblue Don’t middle easterners still forcefully marry away their sisters and daughters to this day? 🤔

[@benjaminmadrigalperez9010]

@@jimkillerx don't westerners still marry their sisters and daughters for political and economical gain??? Just a few years ago there was a cult in Texas where people offered their younger girls (13 and younger) to their prophet because he was the reincarnation of Jesus or something.

[@kaydgaming]

@@greenredblue I like to imagine that their incoherent blabbers are really just the static of white noise

[@miav7590]

“Slavery. So much slavery. Which is nothing like the US in the 1850s” GOT EM

[@kronemerj]

That sick burn is why the county is both figuratively and literally on fire.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Slavery is so damned old and it had been everywhere the modern conception of white people bringing it to Africa and it only ever hitting black people is plain wrong... Humans always had been shitty to each other when given the chance unrelated to skincolor

[@uzefulvideos3440]

Book plays in Europe though, so it just makes sense that the characters are abhorred by Ottoman slavery.

[@duceagle6625]

@@uzefulvideos3440 True, let's rephrase. "Which is nothing like the French colonies"

[@uzefulvideos3440]

​@@duceagle6625 Not quite the same level, really.

[@KarelPKerezman]

And "the skull-faced incel who lives in the basement" is where I had to hit pause so I could finish my laughing fit. Bless you, Lindsay Ellis.

[@EliDavidson24601]

I saw your comment before getting to that line in the video. And yet, upon reaching said line, I too had to pause for extended laughter

[@abc_jv_xyz]

She sounds so calm and so angry at the same time

[@jamesnelson8697]

It's her gift. It's a pretty good gift, actually.

[@adamplentl5588]

Its a teacher thing.

[@adamplentl5588]

@@Aggrobiscuit oh the irony.

[@Lord_Of_Night]

@@Aggrobiscuit Have you read what you wrote and realized how passive aggressive your comment is?

[@ErinaBleu]

"the skull-faced incel who lives in the basement" is officially my favorite description of the phantom

[@tronzero]

I guess this explains why depictions of "harem women" usually have them looking like belly dancers; because people had no idea what actually went on in a harem, but belly dancers were the closest point of reference for "sexy Near/Middle Eastern women."

[@silubr1]

Also, because any excuse is a good one … “Most books on witchcraft will tell you that witches work naked. This is because most books on witchcraft are written by men.” (Terry Pratchett)

[@rorolilred]

I think the belly dancing costumes that we see now were actually developed for American audiences based on harem fantasy stereotypes. Back in the day belly dancers wore tunics

[@tronzero]

@@rorolilred In the case of Egyptian belly dancing, yes and no. The older Raqs Baladi style traditionally has more conservative outfits, while the more sexualized Raqs Sharqi is a more modern invention and was developed with western influences; however Wikipedia states that Raqs Sharqi is also based on "the ancient Egyptian women solo dancing with almost nude-outfits," so the latter might in turn be part of the inspiration for the western portrayal of "sexy harem women." On the other hand, the Turkish belly dance style, Oryantal Dans, uses even more revealing outfits than Raqs Sharqi, and I can't find when that style was developed; I don't know whether it existed before western exploration or not.

[@rorolilred]

@@tronzero Ooh that's really interesting! Thanks for sharing :)

[@cometmoon4485]

@@tronzero I mean, "Oryantal Dans" just seems like the Turkish pronunciation of the English words "oriental dance". So I think it's fair to say that it's probably a result of western orientalism.

[@shis1988]

"So is this an excuse to dump on this book for 30 minutes? ... Yes". And this is why I'm subbed.

[@shis1988]

@@AlexOfCR in order: Yes and... I don't follow UFC since we dropped cable at home. Sorry...

[@shis1988]

@@AlexOfCR I didn't even know but now I'm invested hahahah

[@Captain1nsaneo]

About 10 minutes in my brain went "What's the point of the video?" and then 20 minutes later I got an answer. Not super thrilled to be honest.

[@shis1988]

@@Captain1nsaneo the title and Lindsay is explaining that the Persian of POTO has been whitewashed for each subsequent iteration of the novel. She goes over his whitewashing all the while dumping on Phantom, though I'll guess her shade on it is going past us because of not reading it?

[@Captain1nsaneo]

@@shis1988 A better title would have been "The most whitewashed character in Phantom of the Opera." I'm more disappointed that this isn't an informative speech so much as an argumentative speech. It's goal (from the 30 minutes I saw) was to tie the removal or recasting of the Persian to the low key racism of those doing the adaptations. The problem is that she runs through many different adaptations: books, movies, and plays; without considering the different limitations each form puts on the story. A successful adaptation often brings something new to the story, updates it for contemporary consumption, or brings in new fans through using a different medium. A quick alternate reason for the character change in a movie would be that to explain a non-archetypal character would take time and money that could be spent on the titular character. To put it crudely; this video is a de facto rant and a waste of my time while a video from Noah Caldwell-Gervais sits in my backlog.

[@MrSaundersc]

Lindsay: This is the most whitewashed character in human history. Jesus: Am I a joke to you?!

[@joey1723]

Very true re: Jesus being whitewashed, however I'd class him as a religious figure rather than simply a 'character' which is probably the distinction she is making.

[@Gee-xb7rt]

@@bunsmasterbunny Ok Link calm down.

[@liamlam6606]

@@Gee-xb7rt link cmon we talked about this

[@lucaswallo8127]

@@bunsmasterbunny that's wrong

[@markamanic]

@@joey1723 Its still literary history!

[@zahraa4149]

As an Arab I always wondered why "Arab" women are often depicted wearing belly dancer outfits... guess now I know

[@kronemerj]

Ans knowing just makes it more depressing......... Gi JOEEEEEEEE

[@castlegarden2999]

Women being depicted as slutty, hot, and exotic in orientalist takes, even though the women are actually very modest and subjected to climates that force them to certain wear clothing, and it's really the west that's so hung up on women being attractive: The Middle East 🤝 The Southeast

[@leopardhunter99]

Lived in the Middle East for 15 years and I never saw a single woman dressed that way. When I saw Jasmine in Disney's Aladdin I always wondered why she walked around in nothing but a braw, guess I know why now.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Because THAT’S the cultural expectation for women in predominantly-Muslim countries, right? A LACK of modesty?

[@neksnek2032]

Say it with me: 🎶fetishization🎶

[@Mikhavoc]

olly saying "i'm fed up with this world" makes me want to see tommy wiseau playing the phantom so bad "you're tearing me aPART christine!!!"

[@DarkLordFluffee]

Tommy would never agree to it cuz he'd have to wear a mask, which would deprive us of his beautiful visage

[@lnfreeman]

@@DarkLordFluffee accepted and he totally do this in the ad for his clothing outlet that he did Mom quote in Hamlet and descending a marble staircase?

[@erinmcgee1160]

The adaptation I didn't know I needed

[@jazwhoaskedforthis]

Listen where do I invest? I have three dollars

[@thatcoffee]

“I did not kidnap her, it’s not true, it’s bullsh*t, I did not kidnap her, I did NOT- Oh hi Raoul”

[@JoshuaFagan]

It's really depressing that a melodramatic novel from a century ago has better representation of Iranians than 95% of media today.

[@MrNobody47710]

People are short-sighted, when it comes to comprehending world cultures and their place in history, including their high points and how they've developed. To paraphrase a science fiction author, who might be Arthur C. Clarke: people assume that every bit of technology that's been developed within the first thirty years of their birth is normal, and that everything outside of this is unnatural and malevolent. That same short-sightedness can easily be applied to other topics. Any given human lives for about 70-90 years, human civilization has existed for longer than this, and there is no immediate need for most people to comprehend the vast majority of human civilization, over the ages. We yanks have gone from having no need to have any knowledge whatsoever of Islamic cultures, to having 9/11 shoved into our faces. People are intellectually lazy, be default. They'll latch onto their first impressions, which can contain a lot of emotional drive. It's the weirdos and freaks of human nature that demand more information, and more details. The people that attempt to be genuinely analytical and accurate, while probably being mocked for reasons that are often irrelevant.

[@timothymclean]

There are scattered examples of decent [insert any group] representations going back _centuries._ There have always been people who met a trans guy/foreigner/lesbian/whatever, went "These guys aren't so bad, I don't get what all the fuss is about," and wrote a book about it. And sometimes people just decide to write a minority as a person, just to subvert writing trends, and accidentally do representation good.

[@justineberlein5916]

See also, how Patty in the Ghostbusters remake was so much more stereotypically black than Winston was in the original

[@WildWestSamurai]

@@hkr667 Ben Affleck's "Argo" immediately comes to mind.

[@ЛевАллен]

@White-Van Helsing A significant part of successful and even great films is something other than an adaptation of the 19th century literary cinema classics - the modern system of literary genres proper, the most popular paths and formulas came from there. So respect the 19th century.

[@Igorcastrochucre]

"Why does whenever something gets popular they put it on ice?" Miranda Cosgrove, iCarly, 2008(?)

[@generallymediocre7666]

Gotta keep it ~f r e s h~

[@pkunkbwok]

@@generallymediocre7666 ooooh

[@shis1988]

This is very sad when you realize that out of all those works, only Liz Gillies and Ariana made it big...

[@sigh824]

@@shis1988 Beck did star in an HBO show last year and he's been acting consistently

[@sokar_rostau]

See Hitler on Ice! -Mel Brookes, History of the World Part 1 (1981)

[@depreseo]

hmmm a means by which Erik can have his trauma in persia without orientalising things hmmmm, darn if only there had been some sort of, say, conflict in the 1850's which included france and the ottomans and russians as belligerents, a conflict over a peninsular in the back sea maybe, where the 19th century orientalism of "oh look at the barbarity from the east" could be replaced by real world brutalities which just so happened to take place within the ottoman empire... but alas such conflicts only exist in the works of Tolstoy.

[@src175]

Oh shit the Crimean war how did I not get that until now I don't think Erik could have really been fighting in that war though, don't think the French Army of the time accepted disabled/disfigured people.

[@depreseo]

@@src175 he doesn't have to be fighting. His travels around Europe are known. Simply having him get caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time and he then gets to experience carnage's and horrors which are true to the real world and not romatacised ideas of "Brutish savage ottomon ways". In short an innocent caught up in hell.

[@mmouse1886]

@@depreseo the French had a Conscript army at the time, Blackpowder warfare is not as deadly as it is disfiguring. Improvements in medicine or just blind 'luck' of the time meant that he could've eaten a rifled bullet and still technically lived due to poor ballistics in firearms, but left disfigured after untrained doctors in the field tried to 'heal' him as slapdash as possible.

[@sorcerersapprentice]

@@src175 He could, if you change the setup. Instead of having his disfigurement be a birth defect, Erik could've had his face blasted off by a canon ball while fighting in that war. A lot of the later adaptions have Erik get disfigured later in life, so it's totally not out of left field. It would also explain his eccentricities and erratic behaviour, since blows to the head can cause sever brain damage in some cases.

[@Tareltonlives]

Or, you know, have his trauma in France, which really wasn't much better than Turkey at the time. Yeah, they outlawed slavery by then but it wasnt' exactly Disneyland there

[@thomasbyrne7372]

When I was a pre-teen growing up in Ireland we were taken to a cave somewhere in the country and the guide turned off the lights to show us how absolutely pitch black it was down there. As soon as she did this there was a melee of kicks and punches and w hen the light came back on everyone was standing in a different place and many, including the teacher, were nursing sore appendages. Lights Out seems to be a game which arises organically, without prompt, in certain situations.

[@sophiegriffin3165]

By any chance was it the Dunmore caves? Bc I remember going there and the second the lights were turned off my dad, brothers and I all started poking and pushing each other too lmao

[@thomasbyrne7372]

@@sophiegriffin3165 Looking at the images when I Googled it; Yes! I think that's it. There's an squid-looking stalactite coming out from the wall which I'm sure I've seen.

[@sophiegriffin3165]

Thomas Byrne ah deadly, beautiful caves now in fairness and a good day out! (especially when the whole place starts beating the shit out of each other in the pitch black lmao)

[@timothymclean]

I notice that the common factor in those stories is grade-school children. I wonder if that's the true origin of Lights Out-the lamps went out one night, two of the Shah's kids started fighting, things got out of hand, and the Shah had a blast.

[@joshreddy4359]

He’s nottt thereeee, the Persian in the oppperrraaaaa

[@neuralmute]

Except that the Phantom in all the clips used of the ALW musical from the 25th Anniversary Gala were of Ramin Karimloo who is... Persian.

[@qualifiedarmchaircritic]

As an islamic studies graduate bitter and dried-up from the Orientalism Discourse tm in our field, during which some "academics" still manage to be super fucking orientalist... thank you, Lindsay, for doing a much better job at explaining Orientalism than most of them.

[@thomasolano86]

Lindsay mentions the "Phantom fandom" several times in this video and I just really REALLY hope they refer to themselves as 'The Phandom'

[@doublea8462]

but then there's also the Phandom that is the fandom for Dan and Phil sooooo jebdbe (Phan is a combination of their names btw)

[@cara_h_4]

Yes, that especially refers to the part that's overly obsessed with erik.

[@Goodbutevilgenius]

What is this, Persona?

[@Lilibard]

really late to the party, but I hope they call themselves the fandom of the opera

[@tomboy2980]

I've also heard the danny phantom fandom refer to themselves as the phandom but to my knowledge it is mostly for dan and phil

[@snorpington5910]

"Skull faced incel" Onision?

[@VictoriousBard]

underrated comment

[@beatofromuminekorealnotcli4574]

thank you pipimi griffin

[@becauseimafan]

😆

[@kyleecomet]

Clickbait Title: "Lindsay Prevents War with Iran through Phantom of the Opera"

[@alannahm.3751]

Kylee Foster nice pfp fam

[@a.z.fellco.1704]

Kylee Foster I second this

[@kmmmm150]

20 minutes in and I’m like THAT IS THE REASON FOR THE MONKEY?!?!

[@makakowsky7042]

Right!?! I didn't know that either until i watched Lost in Adaptations review a month ago, (in which he totally gives a shout-out to Lindsay *solidarity*)

[@IsaiahAmos017]

I never got the monkey either

[@VereskVeil]

Yeah, I read the original book and watched THAT movie, and the musical, but I've never made any connection between the monkey and the Persian.

[@amysophiamehr839]

Thank you for this! My husband is Persian, and after reading the the original novel, I was pleasantly surprised by the Persian character and so saddened that he has been dropped in so many adaptions. It's also nice to see a more balanced view of a Middle Eastern character, especially in Gothic literature which so often uses oriental/other racist tropes.

[@landofthesilverpath5823]

Shouldn't he be offended that the character is an orientalist trope character created by a white author?

[@fellinuxvi3541]

@@landofthesilverpath5823 Did you watch the video? The Persian is not that.

[@TheMellowFilmmaker]

This one is almost Loose Canon: The Persian

[@reikun86]

I miss the Loose Canon series.

[@batty_babette]

@@reikun86 Has she ever mentioned anything about bringing it back or even that it is officially cancelled?

[@reikun86]

Chloe S she just said that she doesn’t plan to continue Loose Canon at this time. She hasn’t mentioned bringing it back.

[@kumonoameai]

Loose Cannon was awesome! I miss that series T.T

[@reikun86]

K.A.R.M. Productions I liked Loose Canon too. My favorite segment was on Death.

[@geniusface]

Interesting. Reminds me of Irene Adler; another Victorian-era marginalized character whose original portrayal is probably more progressive than most adaptations

[@PassiveNights]

Rachel yeah I think Hbomberguy did a video and El Sandifer did a blog

[@AWlpsSHOW36]

She's from Sherlock Holmes, isn't she? She's the opera singer villain from 'Scandel in Bohemia'?

[@shoepixie]

@@AWlpsSHOW36 correct!

[@AWlpsSHOW36]

@@shoepixie What was different about her in the books and other adaptations?

[@emmakane6848]

@@AWlpsSHOW36 She originally tries to blackmail (tell his wife about other people he dated so she will leave him) the leader of Bohemia, outsmarts Sherlock Holmes, falls in love and decides that she doesn't need to blackmail the guy anymore turning out to not be the worst person on the planet like she is sometimes portrayed. Where most adaptations make her vindictive/conniving to the end, make it so she doesn't ACTUALLY outsmart him, and don't leave in the lesson for Sherlock about how he shouldn't underestimate women and should stop being prejudiced. As a side every adaptation seems so afraid of doing The Yellow Face story which is understandable, but it has a lesson about not being racist, and in my opinion Sherlock's failures made him more human and give more evidence when telling people that he cared about the people he helped.

[@Whosaskin]

"And he doesn't die" lol... Indeed ahead of it's time.

[@faunina669]

tbh, the "person of colour turns out to have been Secretly White and thus Morally Good the whole time" business really reminds me of how in greek lovestories (so comedies or comedy-adjacent later literature like the story of Daphnis and Chloe), you'll often have protagonists that are introduced as common folk and shepherds or the like, bc OBVSLY silly happy lovestories only happen in pastoral and bucolic settings among peasants, where life is easy and the grass is green and the fact that youre poor/a serf doesnt impact your quality of life! exCEPT these characters are the protagonists!!! the audience has to empathise with them, and only Morally Good characters are able to generate that empathy!!!!! but as we all know only Noble Rich People can be of moral and good character!!!!!!! so in 99% of all cases, at the very end a random messenger comes in going "GOOD LORD, youve been adopted all along and are actually the secret child of the next city's noble, its just that he abandoned you as a baby bc xyz legitimate reason, and here the signet ring we found in your baby wrappings to prove your heritage!" and then the characters get to rejoin their noble families AND marry AND have a happy ending (the child abandonment trope might seem familiar from Disney's Hercules, altho usually the children arent kidnapped and lost but deliberately left somewhere, and the whole Secret Nobility thing also stayed around a damn long time!) if i was smart enough to word it right id probably say sth about how racism and class struggle overlaps right here but im not so. think up that conclusion for urself please ty

[@joellaz9836]

There’s a book and movie called the sheik from the 1920s about an Arab sheik who takes an Englishwoman captive. It has has both the ‘person of colour turns out to be white’ but not only that, he also turns out to be apart of the English nobility so not just a mere white commoner. lol.

[@kronemerj]

It's such a trope in greek/roman plays that a funny thing happened on the way to the forum satirized it. and I like it, but that show isn't exactly known for its comedic deep cuts.

[@user-su5yp9sy9o]

OMG YES! Both that and the race thing bothered me even as a kid but nobody else seemed to find it a problem :T

Basically Robin Hood. He started as a random burglar, but when his folklore started to become popular authors added a backstory in which he was a nobleman who was wrongfully declare an outlaw. The reasons have changed over time but it's usually because of his loyalty to the "true" king Richard (see now his rebellious act isn't problematic because he still totally supports monarchy).

[@joellaz9836]

Ignacio Cañas Oh yes. I remember reading about how the nobility in England in the 16th century co-opted Robin Hood and turned him into a nobleman when in the original tale he wasn’t apart of the aristocracy.

[@jessicaw8067]

Nickelback isn't even American. Oh, those poor, deluded aliens.

[@vmarques6801]

Jessica W she could be referring to the continent of America.... you know..... the one Canada is a part of

[@joyontheleft]

It's ok, y'all can have them

[@maxxvii2037]

Wait really?

[@joyontheleft]

@@maxxvii2037 they're Canadian bruh

[@missmelodies52]

@@vmarques6801 I know that's technically true but that's never what anyone means (also America is two continents)

[@milkteamachine]

"In this adaptaion, the phantom is a tortured rapist, and the Persian is replaced by a bunch of rats." I wish I had never heard this string of words but here we are now.

[@ryuukatamura]

As it turns out, Charles Dance has always had a vendetta against deer.

[@taniar2739]

He gets his revenge in GOT by skinning a deer.

[@panq8904]

Fuckin Baratheons...

[@Elora-vd9vq]

there's a webcomic adaptation I've been reading with a very interesting take, where Frankenstein's monster becomes the phantom after the events in Frankenstein. This version does have the Persian!

[@np8366]

That sounds awesome!! What's it called?

[@SirThinks2Much]

n p it’s called Fantomestein

[@lalas181]

Oh man, Fantomstein! I really like that one. The art style is just _[chef's kiss]_

[@francoeurvalparaiso]

WhaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAT???? 😮

[@FourthDerivative]

I can't be the only one who thinks that Bollywood depiction of America is kinda unironically badass

[@MortMe0430]

Well, that video does seem to portray the US as athletic, musically skilled (the choir), and punk, so... there are worse things to be shown as, for certain.

[@anandprahlad699]

No, they're mostly just kept as white skinned token characters.

[@pisoprano]

FYI, that clip comes from the 2003 movie Kal Ho Naa Ho and it is fabulous

[@Lord_Of_Night]

@Kimmminem West I suppose so. Though I don't think it's intended to be malicious. Since POC made the movie and the song.

[@Lord_Of_Night]

@Kimmminem West Well, I mean, POC is an umbrella word and non-white people are all part of that. I'm quite sure that's the definition.

[@WraithMagus]

I think that it has to be mentioned how much being a sexually repressed Victorian British society probably made people *want* to assume the rest of the world was a bunch of sexy slave babes they wanted to indulge in sexual fantasies with, but that they nevertheless *also* talked down to because their own culture is so *inherently* without flaws. (At least, in public, otherwise, fap fap fap.) I read a lot of manga and light novels, and even just looking over the titles of some of what's coming out in the light novel genre, SO MUCH seems to be focused upon an "average Japanese Joe/Jiro" being whisked away from the awful mundanity and conformity of Japan to another world where he gets to have slave babe harems only to then say that the culture he's so clearly indulging all his fantasies in actually sucks, and should be just like the Japan he needed to apparently be rescued from.

[@jaykingplays]

Lolol, if you think isekais are the only escapism, there is a giant genre of mangas where a person (generally Japanese, though depending on the author could also be an american/brit, and identifying as female, which are generally part of what I call the harlequinn manga genre because many are based on harlequinn novels, but a few male characters as well not a part of this harlequinn genre that are also romances in BL) either: 1) Gets whisked away to a harem in the middle east in some small unknown relatively unknown kingdom in the middle east, to become the lover of the shah (Generally because their father saved the shah/was close friends with the shah/was the ambassador/archaelogist with the shah) 2) Has to be translator/tutor/educator for the shah/prince in a modern century to some islander/middle eastern trying to learn more about modern society/do business with modern society And many, many more. It's always interesting to say the least to see how things get manipulated for their own sake. I found out about it one summer while reading a bunch of manga and was surprised on how many there were. I think there had to be at least 300+ series of them

[@WraithMagus]

@@jaykingplays I have at least seen those before, yes. Those seem very King and I. Still, I don't have the first-hand experience with them I do of Isekais, of which I've broken down and read a few. There is this really weird thing in a lot of Isekais, though, where they pretty explicitly exist because people hate things about Japanese society. Many characters literally die of overwork, or are total recluses who never go outside because they hate Japanese society, and get rewarded with being reborn into a totally different fantasy world for it. The whole thing is this fantasy about how great it would be to be *anywhere but Japan* and how they could spread their wings and soar, but then as soon as they do, they want ramen and to institute the Japanese version of liberal democracy and recreate the otaku culture they were forced into by the big, mean Japanese society as a coping mechanism. It's sort of like Fight Club, where Tyler Durden realizes that the big capitalist dream was a myth, but his idea is to just recreate the same system but with more violence. Except Fight Club was meant to be satirical of that world view, these guys really mean it because they just haven't put thought into their world. Hence, when I look at these types of books, I just get the sense that there is so much of the old "Mighty Whitey" mindset, where all a foreign culture needs is a person from MY culture to tell them how to live their lives (just like our culture), and everything will be better... but with the added twist that they actually hate their own culture, too.

[@mekinot]

I actually love isekais, and the funny thing is that, if you look at shoujo isekais (aka: those that are targeted at women), the approach is really different. The girls die and are reborn in an extremely difficult situation (being the villains of the story is the most common one) where they have to figure out how to survive (usually through being naturally kind to those around them). The resources they use from their previous lives are things like making soap, perfumes or cosmetics and building a small business out of it lol but they don't change the society they live in, generally speaking. ...Of course, the escapism here is the romance, but that's another topic. It's still interesting that when the demographic are men, the stories are more focused on changing the new world; but when the demographic are women, it tends to be about accepting the world they're in and making the best out of it. The funny thing is: the idea of a main character traveling to another world is old as time, and not exclusively eastern. We love our escapism, but we're also scared of getting too far away from the world we're used to, it seems.

[@mylovechoerry2233]

don't fools yourself girl the orientalism take root in reality the slave trade made by arab was far more worst than the one made by european ,millions and millions of black people enslave but also millions of europian the crossade was created to secure mediterranean sea form the arab and muslim and you think that the dipiction of arab men show them being pervet people and that was bad tell yourself that was worst and that still the case today look at arab country ,no just in arab community aroud the world in UK,france,australy....arab men are obesses to control the sexual life of there mothers and sister shit don't do that you have nothing to do in the sexual life of your mother or sister that incest bruhh and the slave trade is still big in their country and to finish if you want to critic european for the orientalism keep the same energie for arab people who the same thing with other race trust me the reality of this race is worst

[@WraithMagus]

@@mekinot Actually, I rather enjoy the shoujo isekais, since they avoid some of the worst indulgences of the shounen ones. Ascendence of a Bookworm is my favorite currently-running series, and JK Haru is a Sex Worker in Another World is a *perfect* deconstructive takedown of the shounen version of the genre. There are really awful ones that are basically just Japanese 50 Shades at times, but they don't all follow this same apparently corporate-mandated pattern the way that the shounen ones do.

[@nawf4372]

Jesus Christ, the second she mentioned Phantom on Ice, I thought of that Rugrats episode. And then TEN seconds later!

[@RmsOceanic]

Kids! Kids on the ice! Somebody call their moms!

[@IWillBeHers]

Dinosaur! Dinosaur! Ancient enemy of man!

[@zoe_astra]

Lol I thought of ‘the grinch on ice’ from the simpsons

[@kimarous]

Forget the parody episodes of shows - I think I still own a VHS recording of "Aladdin On Ice" somewhere in storage.

[@Magearod]

Sure he smashes cities.... but I looooove him!

[@EmoDontMix]

This explains so much! In Malaysia, we're assigned to read Phantom of The Opera as our state reading requirement for the English subject, I was so confused why there's absolutely no mention Persian man character in all other media except for the novel we're made to read.

[@karenruhman263]

Why is PotO such a big deal to Malaysian culture? (This is a genuine question; I no absolutely nothing about Malaysia.)

[@EmoDontMix]

@@karenruhman263 tbh it's not that big of a deal in malaysia. I don't see anyone mention this outside of the english classroom. Also, different states have different reading novel requirements. So you really don't hear a lot of people talking about it in Malaysia. With that said tho, it did made understanding the story harder for a 13 year old. Not to mention, it's in a whole different language. And the confusion when you realize one character is completely missing in the movie and yet they show the movie in class and reference it multiple time. That would make anyone confused.

[@aerikaelaiza2359]

@@gentlerat They take any literature book that would be a classic for the students to read.

[@punbasedname9032]

Interesting how they chose a French book for learning English - it must have got awkward if someone brought the wrong translation in or something (unless the school provided the books)

[@WhiteScorpio2]

"for the English subject" But it's French?

[@Woesteinvuir]

I enjoyed the long revisiting of the different Phantom adaptations, as if the image of Argento's rat-orgy isn't already burned into the minds of every single one of your viewers thanks to the Loose Canon episode

[@mhawang8204]

Punching the plastic deer is still funny, so no complaint here.

[@PogieJoe]

Welp. Now I finally know what Phantom is about after all these years of ignorance. It sounds bad and yet...I want to watch all of these movies shown. Is this how it starts?

[@sjurgaustad5531]

This is exactly how it starts. Embraaaaace iiiiitt!

[@DragonRebelRose]

Mine started when I watched Lindsay's Loose Canon of The Phantom of the Opera Before and After Broadway videos. It all starts somewhere.

[@Lord_Of_Night]

POTO is great. Go watch it. The music is amazing.

[@Sabatuar]

Yup, sure is.

[@bencebotye3904]

I am more concern that Erik was an architect of the court of the Sah, train to be an assassin. Than leave the country by crossing the hostile Russian Empire with his best friend. Why I hearing John Williams music suddenly?

[@machturtlepresents]

I'm going to be so disappointed if Dolezals: The Series doesn't actually happen.

[@Hannahgs]

Orientalism is so pervasive that it took a Lindsey Ellis video for me to learn what a harem was. And my family are Turkish/Iranian. It’s incredibly sad that that part of my heritage is so distant and obscured from me

[@The-Wolf-with-no-name]

Its only distant if you let it be. Since you acknowledge it now find out about it.... If you wish that is.

[@Hannahgs]

Yeah ok lol

[@Hannahgs]

Bogdan VCD I grew up in the US I only recently found out I was Turkish. I didn’t meet that side of my family until I was in the 5th grade

[@Hannahgs]

Bogdan VCD I don’t know how else to explain that i was not taught about my family history or culture

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

That sucks.

[@GothMusicLatinAmerica]

. "We stan a spooky murderboy." Same. . "He's bad for other reasons." True. . I want to see a video about characters who are secret whites. . Now I want a Phantom adaptation where Daroga is the focal character.

[@rodefshalom]

It’s an interesting coincidence that the current reigning actor to play The Phantom is Ramin Karimloo, an Iranian/Canadian immigrant.

[@AnnoyingAsianWitch]

Ramin is bae

[@thefonzkiss]

JMFC He’s in no way “the current reigning actor” though. Josh Piterman is in the title role on the West End and Ben Crawford on Broadway. Ramin last did it in 2011 and then very briefly in 2018 in Korea and Australia. It’s now 2020. Ramin has nothing to do with it.

[@TheMgutierrez]

"Y'all need Jesus" -Some random Spaniard to Filipinos in the 17th Century

[@bluester7177]

Or natives in South America.

[@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly]

Europe to everyone before back handing them

[@george_yassington]

This made me choke on my drink

[@cosmo2590]

"Y'all need Jesus" said europe to pretty much the rest of the world, holding a baseball bat with Jesus written on it

[@mathieuleader8601]

gave birth to Manananggal

[@Tareltonlives]

I keep forgetting how much that prequel novel does Draco In Leather Pants to Eric.

[@Tareltonlives]

Oh a racist fandom. Never heard of that before.

[@JacquelineViana]

"He's bad for other reasons" - I was just waiting for that Love never Dies shade and you delivered it hehe

[@sovietcanuckistanian]

Now that Andrew Lloyd Weber is attempting to revive Love Never Dies can we get Lindsay to do a full video on that theatrical train wreck?

[@magnusengeseth5060]

@@sovietcanuckistanian On the off chance that your wish manifested Lindsay's latest video, thank you.

[@CamiloFHSC]

I appreciate the overly elaborated excuse to show the "look at this graph" meme.

[@keyfrost]

"Dolezals" is a top notch throwback, I had forgotten about that whole thing. Also, would watch.

[@smuganimegirl769]

"Lights out" is how game of thrones should have ended.

[@SeanAyylmao]

My high school locker room also had a game called lights out where they'd turn out the lights then everyone would throw their shoes at each other. This lasted until someone threw a skate.

[@brookesayewich9582]

Sean A holy shit that is hilarious! But I would say it’s more boot than shoe

[@Zedempremier]

I mistakenly read " Someone threw a stake " then went on imagining what would a Vampire Hunter high school be like. Richter Belmond would definitively be the arrogant quarterback.

[@STIR-FRIED-SUBWAY-RAT]

That's hilarious!

[@Elfenohr]

Is the infamous scene in which Leia is captured by Jabba the Hutt part of the *oriental slave babe* trope?

[@paradoxacres1063]

Probably 😐🤷‍♂️

[@IsaiahAmos017]

Hutt space can be quite barbaric

[@MackenzieChandlerDunnavant]

George Lucas said Jabba was inspired by Signor Ferrari from Casablanca, who, while not Arab himself, plays into the stereotype of an Arab crime lord. He even wears a fez, and George Lucas originally wanted Jabba to wear a fez. Not to mention Jabba basically smokes a hookah.

[@anandprahlad699]

Yes!

[@XescoPicas]

RotJ is my favourite Star Wars movie, but yes. Absolutely yes.

[@drinkwateronce]

no one: Raoul: sLuT ;_;

[@natmorse-noland9133]

Three months later and I'd completely forgotten that we almost went to war with Iran.

[@DisasterAster]

Okay but actually "Look at this graph" is one of my all-time favorite memes and should absolutely be the representative artistic piece of the era 😂😂

[@ofsinope]

I want to get hyped for "Dolezals" but can't cuz I'm still waiting for "Beneath the Enemy's Scrotum," which was supposed to come out back in December...

[@midnighthope7752]

The public demands Scrotum!

[@joseyance3933]

I need my titanium scrotum!

[@Kimmaline]

29:45 "...and positing that Eric could have been one of the world's great minds if only the world wasn't so shitty to people with disabilities. Which for 1910 is a pretty nuanced take. Hell, for _now_ it's a nuanced take." *As one of the resident "physically bombed" denizens of this comment section, I approve this message.*

[@Seth9809]

The what?

[@samkathryn4825]

I think part of the problem with Phantom retellings is the same thing that keeps happening with real ones. Often, it’s not the real story being retold or adapted-it’s the most popular adaption. I write retellings (not published in print, just online) and I know that most retellings of stories Disney retold (especially Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, and Mulan) mostly just retell the Disney version to the point retellings of the original aren’t often recognized as retellings. When I read Cinder and researched more about Cinderella, I actually regretted some of my choices with my Cinderella retelling as there were a lot of missed opportunities. Basically, since the Persian was erased from most of the most popular adaptions/retellings, he’s removed from more and more because those popular ones are what are inspiring new authors and creators, not the original.

[@elenafriese891]

Oh hey, Lunar Chronicles!

[@EmptyFeet]

I was surprised to find out I already knew the Persian despite never reading the original novel--from the webcomic Fantome-Stein! It's like a Phantom/Frankenstein crossover that's more than the sum of its parts, with gorgeous art to boot. I can't recommend it enough. :>

[@ursaminor9780]

I don’t think I’ll ever get used to when one of my KZbin icons comments on another icon’s videos. It’s simply exciting for me, as silly as that may sound. Anyways, really appreciate your work, and I’ll try to give that comic a shot!

[@poprocks6576]

Wow I thought that was a terrible idea but when I think about it they fit together really well

[@divatheeva7519]

Ohhh my gosh I just checked it out and this comic is everything I didn’t know I needed-thank you so much for recommending it

[@doityourselfbombs]

feeling a little ashamed that I know about the persian because of fanfiction

[@ladyfrypan249]

I was looking for this in the comments thanks for bringing that up! :D

[@glenngriffon8032]

"The skull faced incel who lives in the basement" omg Lindsay. XD

[@ladyredl3210]

Bless her for that.

[@Supermunch2000]

Just when I though, "Hey, Lindsay Ellis hasn't posted a video in a while", this pops up.

[@jflovo4524]

ComplicatedNickname I think this literally every time she posts a video.

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

No one expects -the Spanish Inquisition- a Lindsay Ellis video!

[@davidegaruti2582]

Legend has it that if you write "lindsay hasn't posted in a while" in an empthy comment section on a youtube video with no views , she will post ...

[@RykerJones28]

I just did the same thing with both Lindsay and Olly Thorn and both post on the same night. 👌

[@ZipplyZane]

Just FYI, she has been releasing her old Nostagic stuff on her other Channel. (Vintaage Chez-Lindsay). The Dark Nella Saga just concluded again. If you don't know about that stuff, it's not as fully formed as she is now, but you can definitely tell it's her--even if there are some problematic elements.

[@EvaFournier]

The Webtoon Ghost on the Roof does have a non-whitewashed Persian! He is mostly a ✨mysterious✨ person who usually interacts with the phantom at this point, but he is there. Also the way singing is illustrated is just beautiful

[@ZeinaIan]

As a Middle Eastern person I really enjoyed this and learned a lot of things I didn't know, I want to thank you for making it. MENA (Middle Eastern and North African) people are barely represented in Hollywood, and when we are it's mostly by non MENA people (Cough Cough Jasmine) or as a terrorist. If you are a non Arab middle eastern person the depictions are even less. Hell as a Kurd the closest thing I have to representation is an off handed joke about a woman doing one of those ancestry DNA tests and finding out she's part Kurdish in a South Park episode.😂

[@azuregriffin1116]

I feel low-key proud of myself for having a character in a creative-arts thing of mine be Kurdish. Like, I didn't think it'd mean that much to someone, but of course I have no shortage of representation of white dudes. In my mind, traits of characters can just 'be' - it's like the quote: You don't make MINORITY characters, you make minority CHARACTERS. I just looked at the people around me and thought to include that same variety in any of my work. I honwstly never thought about it much - can't tell if that makes me an arsehole or not I have Turkish 'relatives' (non-genetic, but I'd call them family), though I am pasty as the full moon and English as tea and crumpets, and the Turkish minority came to mind as I tried to think of a character, so I did a bit of research to hopefully avpid offensive inaccuracies and... that was that.

[@WildWestSamurai]

Hell, one of the things that always irritated me about western media was Arab = Muslim, when there are are non-Arab Muslims and non-Muslim Arabs. My brother's name is Mohammed, of Saudi Arabian descent on his dad's side and White American descent on my/our mom's side, and he still gets bullshit presumptions from complete strangers - "So, you really think you'll get 72 virgins when you die?" - that result in him having to groan and explain, "Ummm, I'm an atheist."

[@erdood3235]

Jews also get whitewashed. there are non-white skinned Jews.

[@anandprahlad699]

You guys should make ur own movies to equalize the situation.👍

[@HudaefCares]

Middle Eastern: We barely get represented in Hollywood, only as exotic females or terrorists. South East Asian: You get represented?!😲 For real though, most of the time we only get mentioned as 'vacation destination'. Why is it always China or Japan?!🤦‍♂️

[@Lyendith]

"Nowadays when we hear 'harem' we think…" A bunch of high school girls trying to get into a bland guy's pants?

[@chaosvii]

Trying... and failing due to most contrived & self-contradictory of circumstances.

[@GaoDaHoi]

The only reason why anime harem is still digestible for me is because the male lead does not enjoy the harem but got tormented by all of his supposed to be love interests.

[@KanaidBlack]

Mostly because all of them only KINDA like him

[@lorenaholly5226]

I see your a man of custom as well

[@AnnoyingAsianWitch]

Harem, thinly veiled straight porn.

[@mj-yo7vt]

"He became a monster because people treated him like one" *Russian literature flashbacks*

[@polinagonch]

waaait what what are the examples there?.. Soz if I'm being dumb rn

[@shmoola]

Leroux did spend couple years working in Russia as a journalist. But yeah he was a "Gilded Age" author, because why wouldn't he

[@kolsveinnskraevolding]

Fun fact - Daroga comes from the Mongol word Daraghchi, which basically just means 'tax collector'. It's not a given name at all in Iran and never has been; it's a hold-over from the Ilkhanate days when Iran was a province of the Mongol Empire.

[@5th_cellar]

It wasn't a given name in the novel, either, just his official title

[@fellinuxvi3541]

It should be noted, the Persian's name is never revealed in the original novel for realism reasons (it would be unwise to name drop a real persian noble in your book meant to be read as a true story).

[@odoridori]

The hyperbolic title was a mistake because now everyone keeps talking about Jesus

[@flytrapYTP]

Y'all need Jesus m'kay?

[@omegalavender]

Jesus is the most famous fictional character.

[@elliart7432]

me: *slowly realizes she's reading from "phantom"* *my middle school emo phase starts flooding back* oh god no...

[@Antony_Oscar]

Same.

[@unluckyone1655]

Urg me too

[@razmiddle9410]

There are dozens of us!

[@goldilox369]

Yep, middle school... Oh well, was still a hell of a read! I don't hate the book like Lindsay does. I'm rather fond of it. But I can see her point about Orientalization.

[@elliart7432]

@@goldilox369 Just from what I remember years ago, the beginning is pretty strong but then it just goes downhill from there. I really don't understand why the author needed to demonize Persia so intensely because the book was already doing a good job establishing reasoning behind Erik's mistrust in people and need for control that would actually happen.

[@ZephyrGlaze]

The more I see of the Phantom fandom, the more it looks just like the Sonic fandom. Everyone only likes about 3 actual works in the entire body and spends most of their time hating the rest.

[@crod9905]

And the Star Wars fandom.

[@LucasSampaioMaia]

@@crod9905 holy cr*ap.... you are right

[@KyrieFortune]

Does that mean Sonic '06 and Love Never Dies are kinda the same thing?

[@merrittanimation7721]

@@KyrieFortune There should be a crossover.

[@Tareltonlives]

So it's just like Star Wars fans.

[@dinokaiser]

I'd also put Captain Nemo way up there as a character white-washed to the point of ridiculousness, with the exception of League of Extraordinary gentlemen of all things (I love the film and think it's a lot of fun hehe) I don't think we've ever seen a mainstream film with him portrayed as Indian. It's actually a little worse than the Persian because Nemo's ethnicity was removed out of some translations of the book which utterly ruins the character and his motivations, his hatred against the british empire was fueled by Britains cruelty against their colonies. Removing that just made him a grump with a submarine.

[@heckyeahponyscans]

I'm glad you posted this because I had no idea he was Indian!

[@brxzbze]

Yeah, I honestly think his whitewashing is worse since his ethnicity fuels part of his primary character motivation. Also I feel that while the Persian's whitewashing is bad in some adaptations, I can see the reasoning behind some of them (like in the show I can generally see why they combined all the side characters as his character was basically for exposition/narration in the book anyway, a lot of his roles overlap with Christine's, and he wouldn't really mesh with how the show wanted to focus more on the main trio's relationships. and obviously in stuff like Phantom of the Paradise it's going for a completely different take, although the whitewashing in 1925 is obviously not great and I like to imagine Ledoux as Persian anyway. also most adaptations very radically change the book and go for different things so it's not really not as obvious) but removing Nemo's ethnic background just removes a super major theme in the story and it's just strange because it's an actual good motivation.

[@spritingk6879]

Intrestingly, though it is a known fact, it edned up becomeing retroactivelyt true, because as far as I can tell, in the original 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, he was described as dark, but his origins made unclear, and early scketches of the plot made him a polish noble(that he was indian got revealed in the semi-sequel mysteious Island)

[@nkbujvytcygvujno6006]

​​​@@spritingk6879 It was revealed in the first book's original text as far as I remember-- what translation did you read?

[@ninarances9074]

​​@@spritingk6879 Yeah Jules Verne wanted to make Captain Nemo a Polish man originally, but can't because (if I'm not mistaken) both Russia and Poland had a lot of conflicts during that time and France has been neutral the whole time. So if Jules made Nemo Polish, then there's a high chance he will get in trouble with the Russians. Even his editor/publisher tried to convince him to change Nemo's ethnicity. And Jules did, even though he adamantly didn't want to.

[@Ficus1493]

I like to consider myself progressive, but I'm ashamed to say that the ideas of Orientalism are so prevalent that this was the first time that they were really challenged for me. I honestly had never really thought twice about where these ideas came from or why or their accuracy. This was the first time I'd heard that what we consider to be a "harem" was completely wrong, and I'm currently reading on that historical life now. This was not only an interesting look into white-washing, racial erasure, and of course Phantom of the Opera, but also incredibly informative. As always, your work is excellent!

[@Tustin2121]

Same. Had to go look up what a harem actually was, since Lindsey didn’t actually tell us.

[@CarrotConsumer]

Words and concepts never translate 100% perfectly across cultures. You probably use dozens of foreign words "incorrectly" everyday without realizing it.

[@thekage100]

as a muslim....let me tell u...this just goes on forever! from Greys anatomy to Game of thrones to dragon prince... its everywhere! I tried and tried and tried again but noone really responded, I am happy people are listening and that they hopefully will not forget about this soon, but will help with at least complaints about these Racist ways to portray people of the East :)

[@gridelinCarver]

@@Tustin2121 i'm half persian myself (my mom is from iran) and i had absolutely no idea that a harem wasn't a ~sexy slave babe~ place until my senior year of high school. orientalist stereotypes are ridiculously prevalent in our society and its disgusting. but yeah harem comes from the word "haram" which means "forbidden," as in it's just a section of the house that's literally forbidden for all men to enter (as far as i know that actually includes men from the family, unless they're pre-pubescent or eunuchs) it was actually meant to be a safe space for the women in the family to like be comfortable without feeling like there were male eyes on them all the time. interestingly enough, women also tended to manage the like food supplies and finances for the family from the harems, which meant that during the egyptian revolution in the mid 1900s, the women were able to secretly organize boycotts by meeting in harems and collectively agreeing to not order their supplies from British companies!

[@CarrotConsumer]

@@gridelinCarver Harems existed as a concept for thousands of years in many places in the eastern Mediterranean/near east. Not every one was alike just like every culture and family is alike. In the Muslim world it fed into the idea that women were not supposed to be seen. So yes it was a space for them not to be seen by men, but for the same reason burqas/hijabs are worn. It's also important to note class differences. A poor Muslim woman can't hide in her own living space all day or be guarded by eunuchs, she has to provide for her family.

[@maranio00]

Me drawing and listening to the video, Lindsay: "the AFD" Me: Oh God what did these idiots do now to be mentioned in a video of Lindsay Like that feelt unreal, not used to hear about the politics in my country in English videos

[@BigBossBernie]

Welcome to the club - when I saw their poster I didn't know where it's from, just thought that they better not be infringing on some international copyright after using tax money to buy gold -.-

[@leoseling4413]

right? really not used to that.

[@LindsayEllis]

@@BigBossBernie Alack, the museum who owns the painting asked for them to remove it, but since the painting is in the public domain there isn't much they can do about it.

[@freshFerdinand]

So that's how Americans feel when we talk about the orange moron.

[@vivilonrane1330]

literal shock freeze english-speaking youtube used to be my escapist spot for getting a break from all the german bullshit going on but here we are 😂

[@KennyFrierson]

Now I want a version of Phantom of the Opera where it goes The Persian: Bros? Phantom: Bros. Everytime they meet

[@elinorc]

I remember watching the musical and movie, loving it, then reading the book and being confused as to who hECK was the persian guy. I grew to really like his character and then became confused as to why the hECK he was never in the musicals or movies