The New Religion Of Anti-Racism: A Conversation with John McWhorter (Episode

In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris speaks with John McWhorter about race, racism, and “anti-racism” in America.
They discuss:
how conceptions of racism have changed
the ubiquitous threat of being branded a “racist”
the contradictions within identity politics
recent echoes of the OJ verdict
willingness among progressives to lose the 2020 election
racism as the all-purpose explanation of racial disparities in the U.S.
double standards for the black community
the war on drugs
the lure of identity politics
police violence
the enduring riddle of affirmative action
the politics of “black face”
and other topics
John McWhorter is a professor of linguistics, philosophy, and music history at Columbia University, and writes for various publications on language issues and race issues such as Time, the Wall Street Journal, the Daily Beast, CNN, and The Atlantic. He also hosts the podcast Lexicon Valley at Slate. He most recently wrote Talking Back Talking Black: Truths About America's Lingua Franca.
Twitter: @JohnHMcWhorter
Released: September 17, 2020
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[@bubbag8895]

If I was a black intellectual.. I'd be pissed having to talk about race all the time

[@highneedforcognition9660]

McWhorter states that it's like having two separate identities within the same body--His linguistics work has usually nothing at all to do with his racial sensemaking persona

[@miketomlin6040]

If you talk about 'race' you are uneducated, it does not exist.

[@highneedforcognition9660]

@@miketomlin6040 I can't wait until that's a majority opinion. Also a very ironic take, since you literally had to mention race to dismiss talking about race.

[@miketomlin6040]

@@highneedforcognition9660 'race' as in a qualified non scientific term, not race as in a mythical reality. Racism will go at some point. DNA/Genetics is relatively new. At the moment globally about 95% of people are unaware there is no such entity as a race of homo sapiens.

[@highneedforcognition9660]

@@miketomlin6040 until we get there this is exactly the type of conversation about race that we need more of

[@Westonator5000]

I wish we could separate this religion from the state

[@DavesGuitarPlanet]

James Lindsay is working on it. newdiscourses.com/2020/09/first-amendment-case-freedom-from-woke-religion/

[@MackTheTemp1]

It's just the newest iteration of Marxism. It's been spread globally for over 100 years. The notion that Marxism needs to be understood as a religion doesn't jive with me.

[@mindlander]

@@MackTheTemp1 how is it the new Marxism?

[@Ayrentrunks]

@@mindlander Isn't it funny how so many people complain, that everything is called racist, meanwhile they call most of the things they do not agree with Marxism ; ).

[@possiblepilotdeviation5791]

@@mindlander Look up Yuri Bezmenov.

[@reasonskeptic83]

Listening to Sam Harris has almost singlehandedly been the most influential part of me learning how to engage with people I disagree with and how to listen to understand and not to dismantle someone’s views.

[@mrtambourineman6107]

Sam Harris is the true 'reasonable man'

[@cragjones1799]

same

[@funkycowful2]

Listening to a conversation like this feels like taking a breath after your head has been held underwater for a minute.

[@BikingVikingHH]

r a if you think this Jew is actually giving you answers you don’t even know what the question is.

[@CanariasCanariass]

@@BikingVikingHH Go away troll. Lol

[@just_another32]

5 minutes

[@DuffHuge]

I seriously couldn't agree more.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@BikingVikingHH tell me what is the question

[@thegiftedteacher]

The signature...”OKAYYYYYY” at the beginning. Gets me every time.

[@aamidjaythreepointoh]

Every fuc*ing time. Lol. It’s even better when you hear that echoed by Coleman Hughes on his podcast

[@ActionAlligator]

@@aamidjaythreepointoh haha, yeah, coleman has been practically body snatched by sam

[@thegiftedteacher]

Darren Foley 😂

[@ianinkster2261]

I think it was the Charles Murray episode which gave us the first ooookay.

[@joshboston2323]

Honestly, I find Coleman Hughes a bit cringe. It’s so obvious he’s copying sam’s mannerisms. It’s a bit much.

[@Oak__]

Glenn Loury and McWhorter have interesting discussions together. John’s on Loury’s podcast sometimes. It’s a good listen!

[@kal-el5535]

Yeah I like watching blogging heads also

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

@@garrettmckellar he's a legend. American enterprise institute, which is a fairly useless thinktank now, occasionally does a of throwback series of 1990's roundup discussions. And one day I was watching an episode because I was bored, and lo and behold Glenn Lowery shows up and it was at that moment I realised, he's been fighting this fight longer than I've been alive. And probably longer than you have too. Nothing but absolute respect 🙌.

[@cunucky]

Definitely, his podcast is severely under watched for how good it is imo. I dont know whether its a "marketing"/outreach issue, him being only a section of one channel, or me just misjudging how good it is.

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

@@cunucky No, it's that good. It's just that criminally few people are talking about these subjects honestly. It's enough to drive you insane, or to vote for Trump or both.

[@just_another32]

Yes, it is very interesting from a British lerslecti d too ( to hear well reasoned people talk about how they view things in the US).

[@meneither3834]

You should NEVER "argue" that you're not racist. Don't answer to emotional feedback with logic, it'll make you dig yourself into a hole.

[@williammorrison6311]

My tactic is to ask them to explain exactly how I am a racist. I never get a straight answer, and almost always I get none at all.

[@colinreese]

How long are the full episodes?

[@DancinDane]

@@colinreese Twice as long.

[@IzabelParis]

Yes. I also think returning the accusation is effective. “So, you’re the *only* person in the world who’s not racist?”

[@JustT0m752]

So you shouldn't use logic? I really hope I misunderstood your statement.

[@mawnkey]

As someone who has long called Third Wave Femnism/Intersectionality/Social Justice out as a new left wing religion, I'm incredibly glad to finally see far louder voices than mine calling their dogma out in the same manner. Thanks a ton for giving Mr. McWhorter a great platform to speak on the subject, Sam.

[@Unity-Mack]

Same

[@mawnkey]

​@To Err is Huma Give Gloria Steinem and her ilk a good read. You'll quickly find that the seeds of this behavior had begun to sprout _early_ in the Third Wave. The only thing that kept it from being noticed was that they weren't yet the dominant societal message, but they were infiltrating academia to create the Fourth Wave which was really just expansion of the audience. The message really hasn't changed much. It's very hateful, bigoted, sexist, and racist.

[@eldridgedavis]

Here here

[@elainehiggins713]

When I heard sane and well-regarded, public personalities speaking out against this nonsense, I said out loud, Thank God! I almost started believing there is a god or something/someone looking out for us.

[@berniek2909]

Same

[@commonsenseproductions5893]

John said "and they can't be reasoned with" which is not quite true. They CAN be reasoned with 1-1 when they can't slide away and escape the discussion. They CANNOT be reasoned with when they have the protection of a group.

[@luckduck5961]

Exactly!! I've tried so many times to have discussions with my friends involved in BLM. They can't even explain with BLM is. If you bring up data on police brutality they deflect by saying things like ' What are you doing to help end racial justice' its completely insane. Its a cult. If you have any clever ways on how to respond to crap like that let me know. I said to one of my friends "What are you doing to help fight climate change' ..

[@commonsenseproductions5893]

@@luckduck5961 I don’t win anyone over, but I can usually get them to clam up when I discuss the shooting numbers in Chicago. 13 total shootings by CPD this year compared to 3,082 people shot across the city in the same time. 13 police shootings, probably all justified, compared to 3,082. Of those victims, 47 are CHILDREN UNDER 12, 11 fatally. So across the city approximately as many children under 12 are murdered by criminal assholes as the entire police department shoots (justified or not) in the same time!

[@commonsenseproductions5893]

@@luckduck5961 then they’ll say “that’s a different issue” which is insane. Police interact with criminals, if one group has more criminals, they will get wrapped up with police more. Chicago has 80 districts, practically all the murders occur in 15 of them, where should we send the police? police are the line between average people living their lives and the criminal lunatics living down the street from them. I for one would prefer more police and less shootings of children under 12!

[@luckduck5961]

@@commonsenseproductions5893 YIKES! Thanks so much! I wasn't aware of those statistics!!! Thanks so much. Its been so frustrating watching some of my friends become indoctinated into this bizarre cult.

[@luckduck5961]

@@commonsenseproductions5893 Wow! So sad www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/38-juveniles-killed-in-gun-violence-in-chicago-so-far-this-year-police/2316036/

[@kiranmaddu8006]

Always a lot to learn from these conversations- I am an immigrant and this is helping me a lot to know human are mostly same everywhere - we just go with some stereotypes and what we repeatedly hear, instead we should be understand things in a deeper sense.

[@gooddaysahead1]

Welcome. Sam Harris is good to listen to no matter where you're from. You don't have to agree with him but he is a very bright, intelligent person that will give you something to think about.

[@rickpur100]

“Nobody cares about hair color today”-the gingers would like a word, Mr. Harris...

[@DigitalMonsters]

In our modern free-spoken society There is a word that we still hold taboo A word with a terrible history Of being used to abuse, oppress and subdue Just six seemingly harmless letters Arranged in a way that will form a word With more power than the pieces of metal That are forged to make swords A couple of Gs, an R and an E, an I and an N Just six little letters all jumbled together Have caused damage that we may never mend And it's important that we all respect That if these people should happen to choose To reclaim the word as their own It doesn't meant the rest of you have a right to its use So never under estimate The power that language imparts Sticks and stones may break your bones But words can break hearts A couple of Gs, jeez, unless you've had to live it An R and an E, even I am careful with it An I and an N; in the end, it will only offend Don't want to have to spell it out again Yeah Only a ginger can call another ginger "ginger" kzbin.info/www/bejne/gYexkGOnq9qbntk

[@EM-cg4iy]

Oddly, research shows that blonde women earn 7% more over their lifetime than non-blondes so I’m not sure it’s actually true.

[@DigitalMonsters]

@Ethan Taylor if centuries of treating people like cattle and stealing any wealth they may have had or come into had been predicated on hair colour and even after that ended it was followed by decades of dirty glances, reminders of a past time, growing up in an environment where you are taught to be suspicious of people and always feeling lower because of your hair color, then you could see why statistics showing any disparity between hair color groups would be seen as significant even the ones that were purely coincidental. I 100% agree with Sam that a true non-racist society is one in which race simply doesn't come up, completely color blind to it in the way we are with hair color or eye colour in that we simply don't care it doesn't really even register; I just don't see it happening given its history.

[@straighttalking2090]

@@DigitalMonsters Cheeky little teaser there. Without going to youtube I'm pretty sure these are are the words of one brilliant but scruffy Aussie individual. Perhaps you should acknowledge his name in your comment. That and his 'Pope' song are perhaps the most valid and entertaining social comment songs of our time. Absolutely Brilliant.

[@Orthodoxi]

And blonde for that matter..

[@atlehman69]

John McWhorter is such a dynomite intellect. He delivers airtight and perfectly articulated arguments with the lighthearted, self depreciating charm of someone like Alex Murray, I can't believe I only discovered him this year.

[@TheDhammaHub]

At times, it definitely looks and feels like a cult. Not much good will be the result of people that are so much fueled by hatred.

[@nietzschean3138]

@Sablicious Who feels like they're under threat?

[@betley08]

They claim trump supporters are in a cult but what they are in is even worse imo.

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

@splat apuss Not all cults were special clothing. The us v.s. them, chanting of slogans, fear of social persecution for leaving the group, and extreme black and white thinking are all there though.

[@KingstonHawke]

You mean a cult like in the comment section where all the white guys cheer at the white guy saying that racism is overblown and bringing on a black guy to say the same?

[@bradavery8121]

At work recently my entire crew was called white supremacists by a man. I work at an art exhibit, it's nice and peaceful. The guy was being escorted out because he wouldn't keep his mask on. Simply put, a black man called a diverse crew of people, including another black man... white supremacists. I fully support equality, but I'm tired of "if you don't agree you're a racist". I'm a human and it would be nice if we all viewed each other that way. This made me feel better, thank you

[@OQIF87NREU]

McWhorter has my favorite words of wisdom for the topic. Glad he finally used Sam's platform to share them.

[@cccpkingu]

You believed in it in the first place?

[@TremblingQualifier]

Maybe you were or are though... just because he may have appeared a little cuckoo, doesn’t mean he was wrong.

[@bradavery8121]

@@TremblingQualifier I can confirm he was wrong. Haha, but I'm pretty sure my DIVERSE coworkers are also not WHITE supremacists. Also being that they protested and openly support BLM. I'll say it again so it doesn't go over your head. "I support equality in all forms." We are Human beings and there is no reason to treat someone (another human being) bad unless they treat you bad. Depending on the situation you can decide how to react to them by using effective communication. Or walk away. Calling someone racist or a supremacist because you are angry you managed to get kicked out of an art exhibit is disgraceful. In no way did race or supremacy have anything to do with him not following COVID-19 guidelines. Management let him scream and yell at the windows outside for 5-10 minutes, and decided with how badly things are NOT to call cops. He left everyone alone after that. Anyway I CAN CONFIRM for those who are worried, that I am not a racist or white supremacist. BECAUSE I am aware of my actions, how I treat other people, and control what I say. I am free thinking and open to new ideas, until they cause harm or destruction to humans around me and the natural world. 👍

[@just_another32]

Yes, it helps to tune in to sane content once in a while... After a while, the constant exposure to constant insults can start to affect a person! BTW, the fact that a black man was among the staff and was also called a WS does not surprise me... Within Critical Race Theory (CRT), basically anyone can be called names like this... apparently you are one (if you are white) and there's nothing you can do about that except admit it and "do the work"; or you are complicit in the system (if you are not white and you dare to disagree). So I expect that man had a bit CRT chip on his shoulder and interpreted the interaction of him being asked to wear a mask through the CRT racial lens... hence the name calling. What a nightmare this ideology is!

[@cbennettrnc]

I was a young revolutionary in 1970 - We studied the red book. We fought against monogamy - destroyed many marriages and families - we brought our kids up in communes/or collectives. Some of our group were killed in the townhouse bombings. You want to know who it hurt the most? The children growing up in that holier than thou environment. And our parents who we condemned as capitalist pigs. We scammed the government (welfare) which I learned when I actually became a productive member of society, was really from working people) As Sam and John describe, the same thing is happening now. I don’t see anyway out unless we vote out the woke democrats. I didn’t think I would ever say this , but the right has become more tolerant and reasonable than the left.

[@DamnedXtians]

I am a product of an ultra-liberal 1970's upbringing. I grew up in a commune surrounded by black, gay, lesbian and all forms of hippie intellectuals. I'm forever grateful for learning early that, with all things being equal, skin color and sexual orientation mean nothing really. I didn't even see any racism until my mother (in her liberal naivete) moved us to the heart of Oakland from SF - where I was beaten, robbed, and attacked almost daily for the color of my skin. I know exactly how harmful liberal ignorance can be. But. The cult-like psychosis on the Right is far FAR more dangerous than progressive buffoonery. To say otherwise is frankly an absurd and/or privileged argument. The Left badly needs to be fixed, but the Right needs to be dismantled outright. I'd prefer to simply ignore the obnoxious lefties than endure anymore the goose-stepping magaloids, ty.

[@joshmeyers372]

The world is and will always be religious, they just have different gods

[@TheBanterCity]

You're making a gross misuse of the term 'religious'. Wake up people!

[@ohman2784]

Agreed. People will always have dogmatism in various ideologies.

[@GrimrDirge]

Marx's poetry revealed a deep hatred of religion, humanity and family, and he laid out a plan to dismantle all three. Gramsci laid out a plan to dominate culture. The Frankfurt school laid out a plan to dissolve culture through relentless criticism without filling the void. De Beauvoir and her ilk taught women to hate their feminine gifts, and throw them away. DeAngelo taught "white" people (whatever the hell that means this week) to hate their ancestors and themselves. This hollowing out, this demoralization, this demolition of functional institutions, is the vacuum needed to make space for the one thing that all leftists actually worship - power. Their power. Whether they totalize their acolytes' worldviews by obsessing over issues of class, religion, or race is somewhat irrelevant; their language is always shot through with a focus on power.

[@alfredbudy1985]

Sam Harris views are similar to mine but he is more concise. I don’t want standards lowered because I am black, I just do not want to be penalized and stereotype beyond redemption because I am black. I can’t change the fact of my skin color because I love myself. But part of me can’t rationalize ppl who find a flaw in every black person to support their hypothesis, self deluded ppl, black mistakes are pathologize and information ℹ️ is weaponized against them in hopes to justify a preconceived stereotype. Now there lies where I will fight a race realist and supremacist because I understand the con being played in the court of public opinion. It cuts and is dangerous both ways and who we decide to be the mediators of this topic. I love the discussion. Excellent title. I feel I talk too much about race often out of the burden I feel it is not dynamically talked about and solution driven amongst blacks. Complexity is true, blacks are not a monolith but our sources of information ℹ️ can’t always be the same faucet. We often talk about the grotesque and extreme examples as the norm. I do have questions like does might make right, survival of the fittest, or power is truth which seem to be perpetuated by ppl in authority. Narcissism in a way. Nice conversation. I felt I learn to see reasoning not always bound up race but ideas.

[@sandrarsd7645]

Agreed, even when the Gods are human..

[@dadman9799]

I’m probably considered racist by some just by sharing this. Sad

[@just_another32]

Definitely. Well done though for sharing it anyway

[@ryleighs9575]

Yup, I've been feeling like that just talking to my two close friends who know me well enough to know better, but I'm also kinda paranoid.

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

*Reports your comment for racist hate speech*

[@naomi-nada]

I don't think you're racist. I think you're misguided. If your goal is to actually combat systemic racism, worrying about a vocal minority of people who wokescold should not be at the top of your list.

[@dadman9799]

diigima never said I was worried, just that the fact of the matter is sad.

[@McGregoryO]

YOU HAVE A PUBLIC DUTY TO RELEASE THAT GLENN LOURY CONVERSATION!!

[@highneedforcognition9660]

FACTS

[@slickdanger_]

Especially for those of us who pay for his podcast

[@KTravRuNEr]

Hahah YES!!!!!!

[@umiluv]

YES! I just posted a comment saying the same. It is outrageous to not have more people listen to Glenn Loury. Is it a form of censorship? Very strange choice.

[@timothylebon]

it was a pretty short discussion honestly, maybe all of 15 minutes. Glenn dropped a lot of facts, it was interesting. anyway sign up for the next zoom if you are a subscriber.

[@garyheimbauer8810]

When Sam goes ALL CAPS - you know he thinks this one is important to listen to!

[@Mariomario-gt4oy]

Yeah to laugh at and cringe

[@sinatra222]

@@Mariomario-gt4oy he's making fun of your religion and you're furious.

[@cmhardin37]

@Samael51760 I guarantee there are devout Christians who have higher general IQs than you.

[@alfredbudy1985]

Sam Harris views are similar to mine but he is more concise. I don’t want standards lowered because I am black, I just do not want to be penalized and stereotype beyond redemption because I am black. I can’t change the fact of my skin color because I love myself. But part of me can’t rationalize ppl who find a flaw in every black person to support their hypothesis, self deluded ppl, black mistakes are pathologize and information ℹ️ is weaponized against them in hopes to justify a preconceived stereotype. Now there lies where I will fight a race realist and supremacist because I understand the con being played in the court of public opinion. It cuts and is dangerous both ways and who we decide to be the mediators of this topic. I love the discussion. Excellent title. I feel I talk too much about race often out of the burden I feel it is not dynamically talked about and solution driven amongst blacks. Complexity is true, blacks are not a monolith but our sources of information ℹ️ can’t always be the same faucet. We often talk about the grotesque and extreme examples as the norm. I do have questions like does might make right, survival of the fittest, or power is truth which seem to be perpetuated by ppl in authority. Narcissism in a way. Nice conversation. I felt I learn to see reasoning not always bound up race but ideas.

[@cosmicninja6924]

What’s hilarious , or scary , is that my wife’s Universalist Unitarian church are actually voting on a new principle of anti racism to include in their faith. So anti racism will officially be part of their religion.

[@QED_]

scary

[@kenhiett5266]

I've always been impressed with Sam's use of the English language but John's oratory skills are truly world class. His verbal acuity, agility, and fluidity is astonishing.

[@kenhiett5266]

@Adam Southworth What are you on about? More context please. I've listened to John many times and I've never heard him say anything that gave me pause. I'm fairly certain his wife is white and John isn't a bomb thrower. Again, what is the context of this quote you're sharing?

[@kenhiett5266]

@Adam Southworth Nevermind, I just listened to the context myself. It's a flippant acknowledgement of Coates comment about hip hop artists saying "f**k white people" into microphones, and John acknowledging black people are allowed to do that. In the context of the conversation he was saying black people are allowed to flip off white establishment but it isn't constructive. Your attempt to slander is futile. Your quote isn't even accurate. lol

[@JamesScottGuitar]

A sad development over the last 6 months has been this: “critical thinking = a complete lack of caring.”

[@SolidSiren]

@Some Guy Thats the funny thing. These people BELIEVE they are the only ones critically thinking. Its all relative, its all us vs them politics. Its the same crap between Republicans and Democrats (both of which lean to the right in America!).

[@TessaTickle]

at the very end, Sam seems to say that people need to see videos where a suspect has turned out to be violent and killed a cop. I think he's kidding himself. Riots have kicked off after 1) that guy was running away from the police and committed suicide beside the entrance of a building, 6ft from other people, 2) the other guy charged out of a house with a big knife, trying to stab the cop. People don't care anymore if the suspect was an obvious danger to cops, EVEN WHEN IT'S IN THE VIDEO.

[@rmdashrfv]

I don't think so much that he is kidding himself as much as he is too late. The rhetoric of BLM has distorted and hijacked so much that people who would normally call a spade a spade, will now refuse to do so even in the face of overwhelming evidence

[@roundedges2]

Sam doesn’t have it quite right: People need to see video after viral video where harmless white guys get killed by a cop because there was something about their actions that was IN THE MOMENT able to be interpreted as threatening. It’s not so much about truth as it is about being bludgeoned with a visual.

[@billsimms2511]

Agree, many folks are too indoctrinated and emotional at this point to care about fact or reality.

[@OQIF87NREU]

I’m confused. Where can I listen to the most recent conversation with Loury? I’m a patron of Sam's so I assume it’s something I have access to regardless of the platform, no? I follow Glenn Loury very closely so I definitely don’t want to miss it. After listening, I have to add that I loved the conversation. I've been a fan of McWhorter's for a while now and I was wondering why he hadn't been on yet. He has a wonderfully mature way of talking about such things and I really wanted to hear him speak to Sam. His analysis of "the elect" and the people's attitudes towards them and their mission is probably the most sophisticated that I believe I have heard yet. I am ecstatic to hear of further progress on the forthcoming book.

[@jackthompson9215]

He said it was on a live Zoom call, so you missed it.

[@theshrubberer]

Sam’s take around the 40-43 minute mark about “identity” is spot on

[@zenmindgreenthumbful]

I'm so mad I missed the zoom call with Glenn! Please put it up on youtube! I love both you guys.

[@oak8891]

I want this interview to be 4hours, really great stuff, John is an amazing speaker and thinker, thank you for speaking up

[@danielkirby2129]

I rather fancy John for four (maybe eight) years, never mind hours.

[@nathanforrest3483]

I don't adhere to any "wokeness". I don't owe anybody anything. Leave me the hell alone.

[@just_another32]

Me too. Its patronising and dehumanising for everyone. Greetz

[@grandepiano]

congratulations, you are sane.

[@nathanforrest3483]

Love him or hate him I'm voting for trump. I'm beyond sick of this nonsense. Leave it up to the Democrats to enflame racial tensions during a pandemic. Such hypocrisy.

[@nathanforrest3483]

@Kvothe Windrunner I disagree.

[@nathanforrest3483]

@Kvothe Windrunner If Biden wins kiss America goodbye and say hello to socialism. Let them riot and let's put them all in jail.

[@TheSymphonyOfScience]

INSTANT like John McWorther is a great human being. Sam too

[@ludwigbeethoven3119]

McWhorter's classes on the "The Great Courses" streaming online are excellent

[@jimmajor2275]

I am 68 years old and I've been thinking about race relations my whole life. We as a society have a couple of options to consider. One option would be to go along as we are, bumping along with an entire demographic of dissatisfied people, and the accompanying protests. A second option would be that we work towards one all-inclusive culture where race is expressly *_not_* identified. In America that could be called, simply, _The American Culture_ . A third option would be to admit our failure and that multi-ethnic societies do not work. We would begin a geographic separation with blacks controlling several of the states, Asians a few states, and white people controlling some states.

[@AttRandyReynolds]

It is the racial animosity that concerns me. One of the stranger, and perhaps sadder examples are the complaints about cultural appropriation.

[@snippletrap]

Option 2 was what he had in the 1990s. Racial unity was explicitly strived for and closer than at any other moment in US history. The problem is that racial differences are real, they show up in disparate outcomes, and those outcomes lead to grievances.

[@jimmajor2275]

@@snippletrap I do not think we can have racial unity until there are things such as equal income, equal rates of incarceration, etc. And I do not think those things can ever be equal when there are two different cultures with different interests and values. Different cultures are, well, different. That is where I suggest the concept of one an all-inclusive culture.

[@snippletrap]

@@jimmajor2275 Culture is one thing, DNA is another.

[@jimmajor2275]

@@snippletrap Right, DNA and culture are two different things.

[@medaphysicsrepository2639]

I always thought it was weird that I had to read "the crucible" growing up in high school.. like I thought to myself "what does a book about witch trials in the late 1600's have to do with me?"

[@liamwinter4512]

Hits ke in the 9th grade feels

[@bobgolden939]

I can only hope you're kidding.

[@jordanious7711]

uhh.. it's always good to learn from the past. You might not think it's relevant to you but it explains parts of humanity and by proxy helps you explore who you are as an individual.

[@IHSchwingo]

So you missed the part where the play was actually about McCarthyism and the red scare.

[@fire2fireable]

lol everyone responding to OP as if they still think that way to feel better about themselves.

[@thiswomancan820]

Nothing short of excellence to be expected! As always Sam, me, and my husband appreciate hearing you speak. Breathe of fresh air

[@johntavers6878]

wow I just learned that "intellection" is a word

[@liamwinter4512]

Stupidlection just doesn't have the same feel

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

The more you know. 🌠

[@visitthebravenewnormaldotc5436]

in·tel·lec·tion noun the action or process of understanding, as opposed to imagination. "audiences demand intellection without the need for thought"

[@DeepSpaceNinja]

I admit when I heard him say it, I thought he misspoke but it's actually a word.

[@thinking-ape6483]

From Latin, intelligere, to understand.

[@unstablefusion3]

I found this conversation 3 years too late. Both articulated so well so many things that have sit in the back of my mind for years

[@dunzdingle]

Such a good discussion, this gives me hope!!! Thank you Sam Harris and John McWhorter for doing this!

[@Say_No_To_e-Girls]

One of the many times where the people who needs to hear it, wont hear it.

[@cecilcharlesofficial]

share, and share again. This is a monumental conversation.

[@Rr16421]

Being an African, I have always wondered why Americans and other people think they can fix racism with more racism, tribalism hasn't worked here at all

[@Ryan-xq3kl]

Looks like its anyone who thinks they have the upper hand on racism accusing others of it. This distraction is allowing for real racism to flourish in hiding.

[@alfredbudy1985]

Sam Harris views are similar to mine but he is more concise. I don’t want standards lowered because I am black, I just do not want to be penalized and stereotype beyond redemption because I am black. I can’t change the fact of my skin color because I love myself. But part of me can’t rationalize ppl who find a flaw in every black person to support their hypothesis, self deluded ppl, black mistakes are pathologize and information ℹ️ is weaponized against them in hopes to justify a preconceived stereotype. Now there lies where I will fight a race realist and supremacist because I understand the con being played in the court of public opinion. It cuts and is dangerous both ways and who we decide to be the mediators of this topic. I love the discussion. Excellent title. I feel I talk too much about race often out of the burden I feel it is not dynamically talked about and solution driven amongst blacks. Complexity is true, blacks are not a monolith but our sources of information ℹ️ can’t always be the same faucet. We often talk about the grotesque and extreme examples as the norm. I do have questions like does might make right, survival of the fittest, or power is truth which seem to be perpetuated by ppl in authority. Narcissism in a way. Nice conversation. I felt I learn to see reasoning not always bound up race but ideas.

[@Rr16421]

@@alfredbudy1985 Well said, Its bound up from Ideas

[@margaretsaleeby9531]

One of the best of Sam’s recent podcasts. I’ve learned so much from John McWhorter and Glen Loury and am thrilled that they will be interacting more often with Sam.. Most folks who’ve considered themselves liberal will find such conversations extremely thought provoking. All three are national treasures IMO.

[@scarlet8078]

I love John McWhorter! Great podcast, please have him back ASAP!

[@JadeTrading]

Thank you for sharing Sam!

[@KevinUchihaOG]

@Larry Myers ok?

[@monicabitzermartin2433]

Had a bit of a lightbulb moment when I was teaching management in construction to first years and we went over corrupt behaviour in construction. One young lady raised the issue of gender discrimination in construction, and I agreed in principle. Going home and thinking about this, I couldn’t come up with one example where I was discriminated against for being female. I had the same conversation with a large number of my female friends in construction and they also shared my position- in fact, we probably had additional opportunities. Brainwashing is real! I believed I was an independent thinker, but clearly got caught out! I share your worry about schools.

[@monicabitzermartin2433]

Bobby P - I think it is more of an ideology than a party.

[@monicabitzermartin2433]

Bobby P The first mistake is to presume that I’m American 🙃

[@Robert-yc9ql]

I smiled when I googled this fellow... and much appreciated his candor and honesty. I feel empowered just by listening to this. Thank you both. At 55:20 when Sam asks if he got anything wrong... THAT is why I follow Sam Harris. He is always open to improvement and seeks to be a better, smarter person. That is how we need to separate the charlatans from the wise.

[@benjaming7325]

I'm a white guy. I'm not smart enough to be a rocket scientist. That's just life

[@benjaming7325]

@Johnny Crustacean 😂

[@JoeSmith-vj2qe]

"I'm a white guy. I'm not smart enough to be a rocket scientist. That's just life" So it's not life. It's YOUR LIFE. You do the same thing every one on the right does. You look at your anecdotal situation and then you try applying that to the entire scope. That is called a "straw man" argument.

[@waltzingpeter]

Joe Smith how the hell is that a strawman? Are there other whites than individual ones? You guys are cooking up a storm you have no idea of how big. Just wait until the Saxon awakes.

[@benjaming7325]

@@JoeSmith-vj2qe perhaps, but no more than what happened George Floyd is anecdotal evidence that the police are systemically racist

[@JoeSmith-vj2qe]

@@benjaming7325 That is not anecdotal. It is borne out in statistics. It has a sociological reporting that measure in impact on minority races. It has actual policies that show discrimination based on race. Plenty of shit to see and read. www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

[@nicholascollard1311]

not often is one blessed with an "are you being served?" shout out.

[@jimm.1013]

Per capita persons wearing tattoos are more likely to be killed by police when compared to those who are not tattooed. I am trying to organize the various tattoo clubs and organizations to protest and march.

[@AttRandyReynolds]

Those who do not wear glasses are more likely to be killed while in police custody. As a person with 20/20 vision, I am greatly concerned.

[@l.ronhubbard5445]

I realize these are jokes but the mentally ill are 16X more likely to be killed by police. Nobody ever talks about this

[@ramigilneas9274]

L. Ron Hubbard I bet that they are also at least 16 times more likely to commit a crime...😉

[@l.ronhubbard5445]

@@ramigilneas9274 perhaps the mentally ill are more likely to be involved in crime, they are certainly more likely to be involved in drugs but I don't believe drug use to be inherently criminal. Neither does the government as evidenced by all the legal drugs. I've viewed it as the mentally ill are more likely to be in crisis and that is where the extra police contact comes from. But as with all topics like this, it's not that simple

[@john1425]

They will say you weren't born with tattoos it was a choice unlike being black. I agree with the point your making though.

[@bambi7154]

Want to like this convo x1000000000000000 times! John is a wise man with high EQ and sense of humour!

[@ThePartyKnife]

I've never heard of this author before but excuse my language... holy shit! What a voice of reason... Was an absolute pleasure to hear him express his views on the topic at hand. -As always, yet another amazing and eye opening podcast Sam!

[@Atom_Stone]

"A pornography of grievance & mistrust...." Pure gold, Sam

[@WilliamTeller]

9:55 "You're gonna get called a dirty name by a person who's usually educated and/or very articulate and they're gonna call to you loudly and spread it on Twitter."

[@abw48]

Speaking with a young English guy recently in Malaysia, he was on holiday, I was living there, anyways, he told me he was so happy to be in a country where everybody didnt look like him as he hates racism... I suggested that racism comes from every culture and Race in the World and does he know how racism could end... he thought for a minute then he said, "If all the various Races of the World got together and then had sex with each other, then all the babies would be coffee colored and that would end it".... So, I asked him what did he have against all the various Races of the World that he wanted them all to self genocide, be gone from the Planet forever.... He was, as you can imagine, rather stunned into silence... he sat there for a while, then stood up, looked at me, and I thought he may start crying, but he just walked away, probably in search of a safe space where he could have a good old cry in peace... This soy boy was about 35 years old... Gawd help us...

[@kgkel2612]

What makes you think the "Races of the World" is a meaningful identity? People are much more homogeneous in their thinking and acting due to regional language, laws and customs, than they are to "race" (whatever that really is). Nationality is more homogeneous than race. "Black" people in London, England are quite different as a group from "Black" people in Alabama. "White" people in South Africa as a group are quite different from "White" people in Norway. "The" people in my office workplace are quite different from "the" people working on a commercial oil rig. This false idea of "races" as meaningful homogeneous groups is a red herring and massive waste of time and discourse. Can we move on now?

[@abw48]

@@kgkel2612 :Get a life mate. Im a brit living in SE Asia for over 20 years, before that I have lived in India, Middle East, Central Europe, Africa, North America and Central America, people of the World are of a RACE before they are of a Nationality.

[@kgkel2612]

@@abw48 Haha, I have a life, dude. Please enlighten me...how many races are there and what characteristics are you using to distinguish between them?

[@abw48]

@@kgkel2612 :Go to your local Library and get a book on Anthropology.

[@kgkel2612]

@@abw48 Just as I suspected, you can't answer the question and instead try to hand wave it away by saying "get a book". Just because you've lived in a lot of places doesn't mean you have meaningful insights on humanity, so you can spare me that part of your resume. I would like to know when your books on Anthropology were written, because no modern anthropologist uses race as a meaningful characteristic of human study. You do realize the concept of race is a pseudoscience started in the 16th century that has now been made obsolete by the study of genetics don't you? When I look back to your original comment to "a young English guy" and you asked him "what did he have against the Races of the World that he wanted them all to self genocide" you said you thought he might start crying but then he just walked away. You seemed quite proud of yourself. I would ask you "what is your motive in supporting the pseudoscience of race given you seem to want it to self-perpetuate". Funny you identified the guy as English and not by his race - why was that? My take on the young English guy is that after hearing your brain-addled logic, he realized there was nowhere to go with you for intelligent conversation, so he wept a silent tear for humanity and moved on.

[@Craznar]

I was called out for being a racist for saying I didn't like frizzy hair. I was called out for being a racist for asking someone to explain why the take a knee movement. I'm not mentally well enough to keep on talking about this stuff - so I've decided to remain ignorant instead.

[@nicholasreese7856]

It's refreshing hearing two sensible and rational thinkers talk about these issues. Such a rare thing today sadly. I think the poor education system and the obvious breakdown of the nuclear family in recent years has a lot to do with the problems we face right now.

[@RT710.]

It’s interesting how all of these anti-woke black intellectuals have to be platformed by popular white men.

[@bgdaddysmooth7713]

My thoughts on John saying we need to provide birth control aside, making welfare contingent on the lack of a father needs to be reformed for that to even have a chance of working.

[@caleblewis3881]

McWhorter's comment where he said that we are like Romans watching the birth of Christianity literally made me fuckin' nauseous. What a perfect characterization of this whole thing, especially the scope of it. This is an orthodoxy.

[@visicircle]

my man John McWhorter!!! His book, Losing the Race, changed my life!! Excellent work Sam Harris.

[@mitchstacey34]

Really shoots my wheels when the opening song cuts out like that

[@drfreebs]

It really ladders my tights

[@TomGrosset]

I thought I was about to be interrupted by a phone call.

[@hmu05366]

It really gerfunks my kaploink

[@jeffersonianideal]

Those who control the meaning and the use of words (such as the term, "racism") control the discourse.

[@just_another32]

Yes but keep your old dictionary, and keep your old morality, and you will stay sane.

[@jeffersonianideal]

@@just_another32 It's not my sanity I'm worried about.

[@Gabriel-pt6tq]

I see the generated transcript here on KZbin but is it available anywhere in more of an article form?

[@thezzach]

I’ve always loved Sam Harris but I’m so glad that I found out about John McWhorter. I have never heard of him before. Brilliant!

[@fritznovak4482]

Coleman Hughes will be listening I bet.

[@mathman2170]

Absolutely! We have to get back to putting the highest possibly value on Truth -- fully acknowledging that Truth is not easy to discern, but it is worth the effort.

[@stevenmilliman412]

I used to love seeing John McWhorter on Cspan in the 90s. He really shaped my outside the box political thinking. More great insight from him here.

[@lerdawerd1933]

My heart skipped a beat when he mentioned Mrs. Slocomb from Are You Being Served 💗

[@Loftipixels]

Please consider discussing Unity 2020 and what is going on rn with big tech censorship.

[@Chris-Christopher-]

@The Unknown, all the more reason to discuss it. Lots of people do not think it's rubbish. So, discussing it in an open way would allow for exploration of the topic to help people decide if it's rubbish or not.

[@kenhiett5266]

One of the most important conversations in the context of current societal dysfunction I've listened to. We must follow Mr. McWhorter's advice. Quit trying to convince members of the religion of racial zealotry and stop giving in to the intended power of being labeled.

[@kenhiett5266]

@Chad K I like it. I'm trying to imagine how I would roll out the practical application, but I think you're spot on.

[@just_another32]

@Chad K I don't think everyone is racist. We all have prejudices and biases for sure.

[@kenhiett5266]

@@just_another32 Taking that position disarms the racial attack. This is verbal warfare, nothing more.

[@iainrae6159]

Like hearing Stsn Getz playing with John Coltrsne. Just beautiful conversation. Incidentally Coltrane and Getz had huge respect for each other.

[@jaystubbs6041]

I do like that bravery is mentioned on Sam’s behalf. Such incredible bravery. Not even getting into the intellect, I’m so happy this dude is around :)

[@DarthQueefious]

The Tulsa traffic stop video still haunts me. The cop's scream as he's shot and realises what is happening (before he is then executed even tho he's already on the ground) is just horrible. Reminded me of a video I watched like 10 years ago or so where a Vietnam vet murders a cop. The vet was put to death just a few years ago iirc. That vid stayed with me too

[@highneedforcognition9660]

@splat apuss I see no evidence that his whiteness made any difference

[@justinakers3196]

I know the video you’re talking about. I’ve seen the one with the Vietnam vet, but I haven’t seen the toes a traffic stop. I’m going to watch it right now

[@DarthQueefious]

@splat apuss You've been brainwashed by the media/twitter if you think cops just charge in and start swinging/shooting when it comes to black ppl. Most agitated situations play out similar to this (minus the shooting at the end), regardless of race.

[@highneedforcognition9660]

@splat apuss sure, both are problems, and by a large segment of the population and media, both have been dramatically exaggerated

[@coffeyjjj]

Book: *_"The Vision of The Annointed"_* by Thomas Sowell

[@peterthorpe8230]

Indeed, nothing more refreshing than Sowell. Also shout out to my own recent work which is the most based book on race published in the 21st century: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIqpgGyvrZKJfdE

[@xedasxedas]

@r3conwoo well.....i guess it is the result of a process of elimination, not for loving Trump.

[@xedasxedas]

@r3conwoo You do understand the meaning of the process of elimination? Considering that the democrats are currently impregna ted with marxist progressive and intersectional agenda, the only other political party to support is the one that so happens to be headed by Trump. It would be a step back for the world if the the US went red (as in red for comunist). It's the behaviour of the democratic that drag people to the republican side....not the beautifull fake hair of Trump. Things like..."if you don't agree with me you are a nazi". Mandatory compliance for not been labeled a bad person....like you just made there. People dont like that. It's the new orthodoxy. That cancels people (wich never makes any large company enemies....funny). Trump is the more liberal president that the republican party has ever done....so even hippies (old ones). Trump is a climate change denier...sure it looks that way. We are however overlooking the huge chinese (and India) helephant in the room. They polute at a scale that we dont even know and they even buy polution "coatas" from others countries that dont need them....and still pay fines (and have money for buy other countries externas debts). So the limitation on the us economy from the Paris thing is sorta unfair (unless the us had equal financial power.....which they dont as China is even the largest buyer of american debt). China is not the the true problem....it's the CCP. They are the Apple of the political systems. Yes....judging people/ideologies by their intentions and not by the outcome has sure proven a successful model (sarcasm here...inspired from Sowell and Milton Friedman lectures). I wonder why John Stewart lost his funny. Even Bill Maher sometimes cracks. Fox news has became almost normal. Clássic liberals are buying guns. I guess i got a bit carried away....oh well.

[@xedasxedas]

@r3conwoo So....what candidate do you support at this stage? Assuming you have to support one.

[@xedasxedas]

@r3conwoo ok. You're a long republican supporter that in this specific situation feel it's wise to vote Biden. Ok. It's hard to believe but It's your vote and i respect that. However you go into really deep layers of intelectuall to find inconsistencies on the Trump front...and literary ignore the blatent hipocresys of the left (wether you consider it marxist or not). The guys with the torchs are supporting and being supported by the democratic party....or not? Do you think is fair that someone loses his job not not screaming blm loud enough? For saying that you either a man or a women? That reducing people's credibility to their level of possible victimhood and not their acctual social merits is correct? That mention black on black crime means you're racist? Have decolonize your bookshelf/ebook? Have you burn your bible and flag this week? Do you agree with defunding the police? Do you believe there's intitutionalised racism in America? Where was this racism in the Obama era? You're not "real".

[@DeusEx_Machina]

great word used in this convo - insouciant (In-sue-she-ent) - 'showing a casual lack of concern; indifferent.' I love the sound of it.

[@Randulpheleven]

Aside from liking these ideas and solutions discussed, I really love the rhythm and inflections in John McWhorter's voice.

[@missygoldstein12]

Yes I thought of the exact analogy. OJ Simpson. I remember this vividly. I never believed anyone actually believed anyone thought he was innocent. It was not about that. It was that he should for somehow not be held accountable

[@benharrison4513]

I’ve been waiting for this podcast to happen for a long time!

[@colinreese]

How long are the full episodes?

[@theshrubberer]

Excellent dialogue. Agree with John on redirecting energy to making real changes that have socially beneficial results

[@mathman2170]

Excellent conversation.

[@TheFlameoftheWest]

"The Orange Goblin" LOL

[@mark8877]

What a wonderful and well-spoken guest. Please bring John back sometime.

[@JustT0m752]

Thank you Sam, if you are open to a suggestion please have John Mcwhowder on ever one of your podcasts from now on. I can't get enough of this Guy!

[@liamwinter4512]

I wonder if they will adopt full body coverings so as not to know what the other race of the speaking party is.

[@pathologicaldoubt]

Well the woke paradoxically fetishize conservative muslims so it’s only a matter of time...

[@ryleighs9575]

But then how will we know who is or isn't racist?

[@JasonWhittle1]

Speaking of Religion, I made an open source one on Github.

[@Human_Evolution-]

Wut you sayin

[@michipichu]

Can I run it on a mac?

[@nealkelly9757]

Can it run Crysis Remastered?

[@Human_Evolution-]

I feel like I am not nerd cool anymore. I feel like I didn't get a GitHub joke that I should have.

[@JasonWhittle1]

@@Human_Evolution- I am not joking. Check out github. My user name is Wason1

[@sombh1971]

This guy is simply awesome, I think I need to get to know more about him and his work, looking forward especially to his new book.

[@tslambert1973]

John McWhorter quoting Mrs Sloakham - brilliant and totally surprising. New found respect!

[@perpetualmoto]

this is a top top top podcast...consider making this a psa. we need these. especially now.

[@cecilcharlesofficial]

Agreed - this was an amazing conversation, all the way through. The world must hear. Share, and share again.

[@matmirza5376]

6:26 not a good year for sure. Every month have its own bad theme.

[@Bradley_Lute]

Great discussion between you guys. John McWorter is the man to follow these days for a much needed moderate voice on black politics. We must reject the huge pull woke politics has on our lives while still inviting them to the table. There are rich ideas there but a lot of bad ones as well.

[@dj_laundry_list]

I've long been interested in new religions, and who better than Sam to discuss them?

[@arshaanfur]

I am a simple man. I see a making sense episode? I empty my schedule.

[@Westonator5000]

Makes sense

[@mathman2170]

The race-baiting business pays -- it's economics 101. Incentives work.

[@edmilsoneletrica]

@Chad K "supply never lower" It reminds me of Juicy Smoliet. Never got what he deserved.

[@alfredbudy1985]

Sam Harris views are similar to mine but he is more concise. I don’t want standards lowered because I am black, I just do not want to be penalized and stereotype beyond redemption because I am black. I can’t change the fact of my skin color because I love myself. But part of me can’t rationalize ppl who find a flaw in every black person to support their hypothesis, self deluded ppl, black mistakes are pathologize and information ℹ️ is weaponized against them in hopes to justify a preconceived stereotype. Now there lies where I will fight a race realist and supremacist because I understand the con being played in the court of public opinion. It cuts and is dangerous both ways and who we decide to be the mediators of this topic. I love the discussion. Excellent title. I feel I talk too much about race often out of the burden I feel it is not dynamically talked about and solution driven amongst blacks. Complexity is true, blacks are not a monolith but our sources of information ℹ️ can’t always be the same faucet. We often talk about the grotesque and extreme examples as the norm. I do have questions like does might make right, survival of the fittest, or power is truth which seem to be perpetuated by ppl in authority. Narcissism in a way. Nice conversation. I felt I learn to see reasoning not always bound up race but ideas.

[@Fahrenheit4051]

John McWhorter - "Reading should be taught by teaching kids how to sound out words." AMEN!!! Schools currently teach reading using the "whole word" method (treating each word like a Chinese character), which is "quicker" in the short run but leaves children with a limited reading ability. For this very reason, my younger brother and I both struggled with reading until our parents taught us how to read phonetically, both in kindergarten. I was in special ed for unrelated reasons, and was tested on reading comprehension in second grade - scored at "college level" because that was as high as the test went. My brother was the same way though he was never tested. This problem isn't limited to inner-city black kids or weirdos like me, either. Once upon a time, I was a lower middle class white high-schooler in Farmington, CT (an upper-middle class, mostly white town with a top-rated high school). I wanted to facepalm every time I heard any of my peers read aloud and struggle to pronounce basic words. One of my classmates was an Armenian immigrant with a thick accent, yet was better at reading English than most of his peers. Hate to "culturally appropriate" 😉 woke terminology, but I'm down for "dismantling the structure" of American schoolags.

[@Zalzaroth]

Great convo I just wish I could hear the whole thing!

[@highneedforcognition9660]

Wait, did I forever miss my chance to witness a conversation between two of my biggest idols Sam Harris and Glenn Loury? 😭😭😭😭😭 Please release the audio!!

[@Human_Evolution-]

Who Glenn be?

[@TheDrb27]

Human Evolution You can find him on KZbin with Blogging Heads TV channel

[@highneedforcognition9660]

@@Human_Evolution- kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZfWeWZ3ltSkj68

[@Human_Evolution-]

@@highneedforcognition9660 thanks. Added it to my playlist

[@666marquis]

McWhorter is too kind to the people he calls "pious" - many indeed seem to be cynics not interested in diversity/equality but in revenge/power.

[@ASabo-oy2oe]

Another great one. Thanks, fellas! 👏

[@austinglover8311]

I love all the helpful citations in the description and the episode itself almost as must as I love sarcasm.

[@danquarterman]

"What you fight, you will become."

[@megg.6651]

Two people I respect immensely. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE SAM & JOHN IN THIS COUNTRY

[@JoeSmith-vj2qe]

We need people who say that if you get called the N word, that it's just your religion?

[@coahuiltejano]

Brilliant discussion. I'll be on the lookout for the audiobook

[@ChrisBates888]

As a 16-year-old, I don't know what to think anymore. If I don't support BLM I'm a white supremacist who is ignorant to systemic and structural racism. But If I do support it, I'm encouraging these obscure and ambiguous problems which are synonymous with 'woke' culture. Even now having to put woke between two apostrophes makes me sound like right-wing reporters who I find intolerable. I feel as if I'm stuck in-between a rock and a hard place of being a mindless sheep or white supremacist.

[@georgemioch8981]

It’s OK to be confused and questioning. I am much older and have recently gone from being a Democrat and a “leftist” to being against certain of their views. You don’t have to align perfectly with one or the other.