The Nnormal Kboix Chronicles 03: Prototype Review

[@chaos406]

The way you present technical details and design insights goes so well with showcasing this shoe. I'm glad you're doing this series!

[@SagasuRunning]

I appreciate that. It's a fun shoe for sure. I can't wait to get one that actually fits. Total game changer that.

[@sandstromj]

I picked bounce (2) and reactive (3) midsoles with my Kboix preorder. Wouldn’t have been able to choose without your review.

[@SagasuRunning]

Those are the best two. Gives alot of range. Enjoy them. 👍🏻

[@realgrilledsushi]

I’m happy to see you go all in with NNormal’s future release. Looking forward to next episode! Question, if this a shoe that you could do daily runner and race day simply by changing the insole?

[@SagasuRunning]

Theoretically this could be a trainer/racer with a midsole swap. Though the Kjerag is always going to be the more stripped down/faster race shoe. Nnormal is also working on another shoe for 50k+ racing. Nnormal is looking at the Kboix as a platform so I think you'll see different configurations you can buy of it in the future, midsoles, outsoles, uppers... This may be the end of the series. I had another video or two planned but due to the fit issues and my limited time in the shoe tone likely won't happen. The other I'm still trying to make happen, but we will see.

[@guillaumecovat2117]

Very interesting as always ! thank you !

[@SagasuRunning]

Thank you for watching. 🙏🏻

[@sandstromj]

So much waiting for this show to be released and also with a midsole that would have a carbon (X) plate in it, oh boy that would be good. I so enjoyed this long detailed review.

[@SagasuRunning]

I know they are planning on other midsoles for this shoe. Not sure about a plated one. It would make it more difficult to slide the midsole in, as the midsole needs a little flex to do that. Possibly a forefoot plate might work though.

[@sandstromj]

@@SagasuRunning well, it works on the Speedland, albeit that is of course only part of the insole

[@SagasuRunning]

@@sandstromj Speedland uses a very different design that allows for a stiff plate to be inserted under the insole in the shoe....The Kboix is very different.

[@Not_So_Common_Sense]

Been waiting for this!

[@SagasuRunning]

I hope you learn what you want to learn then. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻

[@caseysmith544]

@@SagasuRunning I know a person who after some major changes to a Vomero model of shoes still runs in Vomero 6. He is solely responsible for killing our local running club call Pierre (Pier) Area Running Club when shortened is called PARC said PARK and its races. The local YMCA has made the a 1/2 Marathon Because of YMCA people were wanting a full Marathon because of crazy people who keep asking for a real Marathon so they can race all 50 state capitals in a Marathon so they gave them a 1/2 Marathon that the craziest people will pay for 2 bibs and race on one then go out trying to finish in the 1/2 Marathon on the other bib with same name/second name in time allotted of 6 hours, whereas less crazy just go out unofficial for the second 1/2 marathon, with finally, the least crazy others just want an official 1/2 marathon or Marathon for all 50 states accepting that South Dakota State capital Pierre (Pier) is too small in population with no big city nearby unlike Vermont's Montpelier having nearby a few bigger cities to have an official Marathon unlike Vermont. Also is a fundraiser 5 k for the governor statues that is basic with only a finishers time display for the race they bought as the only thing and do not even keep track of runners or anything not even the winners get a medal no shirt, even if cotton, nothing for the race just funding the statues that some earliest of the governor statues are a safety hazard where they were placed and how they look like they are going into the road so people do not look for traffic anymore in the crosswalks these few are near with a kid being killed by a 2019 Suburban SUV hitting then driving over the kid the driver never felt because the Truck is bigger a 15 passenger van/big cargo van of the same 2019--2020 era.

[@caseysmith544]

@@SagasuRunning So could somebody take a sock liner insert like the Dr Scholl's Sockless model insert to be used in the shoe for a barefoot ride if they went 1.5 sizes down to take into account the fit?

[@SagasuRunning]

@caseysmith544 It would be hard. There is a built in sock liner to the midsole and the shape of the midsole, as you can see in the video, is rather deep so fitting a 3rd party sock liner would be hard. It would also move around in the shoe oddly since the ride is a bit different on the foot. It isn’t about the physical space for it…. It’s more about the mechanics of how the midsole moves with the upper and shoe over all.

[@Davercrooks]

Excellent work. I am so looking forward to getting my hands (feet) on these. They have been teased for quite some time.

[@SagasuRunning]

I have no idea when a production release will be…. But the product is definitely getting there. It’s going to be a game changer for some runners out there.

[@Davercrooks]

@@SagasuRunning agreed. I loved my Tomir’s.

[@SagasuRunning]

The Tomir 2.0 is outstanding. No doubt.

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

Comprehensive discussion, as always. You have me thinking Normal now. My last 100K was in Altra, who hasn't been the same since the VF Corp buyout. On an aside, I'm curious if M2C will come out with a trail shoe. Thanks, Chris.

[@SagasuRunning]

All I can say is stay tuned. Some things you may be very interested in coming up on the channel in the coming weeks. 🤫

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

@@SagasuRunning You're going to cost me money aren't you? LOL

[@arikdeguzman8194]

commented on your last video with same message, but hoping for a low/zero drop midsole option and a low stack foam option. thank you for your content and information

[@SagasuRunning]

Zero drop might work but lower stack won't as it will leave too much slack in the upper and you won't be able to lock down the foot properly.

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

What's amazing is that Kilian was more innovative than the actual industrial designers at Salomon.

[@SagasuRunning]

It's been interesting to see the divergence of Salomon's product since Killian left. 🤔

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

@@SagasuRunning Yeah, that new S/LAB Ultraglide looks seriously terrible. Or at least I'm drunk and don't understand it.

[@SagasuRunning]

@@RowOfMushyTiT No, it’s terrible. 😂

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

@@SagasuRunning I like how they said the 'pods' relieve pressure from parts of the foot. 🤦🏼‍♂

[@SagasuRunning]

@RowOfMushyTiT Sure they do…. Sure they do….🤷🏼‍♂️

[@n.duquette]

I’ve been dreaming of a modular shoe forever. So excited for this thing. I think using the word “normal” in the review of a Nnormal could be confusing. “Typical” would have more clarity.

[@SagasuRunning]

This one is on it's way. What do you mean, "a normal Nnormal.." isn't natural? come on. 🤣 "Typical" sounds negative to me though...

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

Btw if you like the Kjerags, you might also like the Agravic Speeds. It's simple, stripped back, and with good foam.

[@SagasuRunning]

Sadly, Adidas doesn't sell ANY of their trail line here in Taiwan. I looked for Adidas trail when I was in the US but didn't find what I wanted, even at a few good trail shops (they told me either the Adidas trail line was popular and they couldn't keep it in stock or no one wanted it and they ended up sending it back to Adidas, more the later). Next time I'm in Japan I'll look, I know a few great shops that will have them...

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

@@SagasuRunning Hmmm, maybe in Europe it is easier to find. It even released directly on sale here (I'm in Switzerland).

[@SagasuRunning]

They are rare in Asia and the US.

[@berry5954]

Hoka showed for once how it should be done with the X3. Pebbles in your shoes are a show stopper no matter how fast the shoe is. Integrate a gaiter. .

[@SagasuRunning]

Gaiters limit the use case of the shoe considerably. They are great when they are needed but 90% of the time they aren’t needed. Here in Taiwan… where it’s always humid and hot and not overly rocky a gaiter is awful… but having a gaitered and non gaitered version of a shoe makes more sense.

[@brianreiter5572]

Your discussion of the way that the midsole sitting inside the cupsole changed the forces and therefore the geometry of the shoe is really interesting. I think the full coverage Vibram outsole glued to the Kjerag midsole is a structural element stabilizing the foam. But I think there is something else going on. I have been told there is some kind of a thin plate in there as well that NNormal doesn’t really talk about but maybe similar to Salomon profeel film that acts as a rock filter but also stiffens the shoe a bit. I don’t think it is only just midsole bonded to outsole rubber.

[@RowOfMushyTiT]

There is a a fabric mesh in-place of a rock plate in the Kjerag. When it's sandwiched in there and glued it's under tension - so will filter out hits from sharp stones. Profeel is an actual thin plastic plate.

[@SagasuRunning]

Nope, no plate or film in the Kboix...I asked directly about this. I assume they were using the same film/mesh as in the Kjerag for rock protection/added structure to the midsole but I was told multiple times it was not in the shoe. The designers felt there was enough midsole in the shoe (like the Tomir 2.0) that it didn't need it. There IS a 2mm layer of a very dense EVA foam on the bottom of the cupsole that is there for the midsole insert to sit against (for a foam on foam connection and not foam on rubber) so the midsole doesn't move in the shoe. This does give the midsole something to "sit" on, but there is no structural element to it, it's very flexible. As you can see when I ball the shoe up there is very little resistance in the shoe to flex.

[@SagasuRunning]

The Kjerag has this film/mesh, but the Kboix and Tomir 2.0 do not.

[@brianreiter5572]

Ok. That lack of bonding to a stabilizing layer of rock filter and outsole explains the difference in feel for the eexpure midsole that you described. The material in the same but the mechanical properties are different because of the bonding to stabilizing elements.

[@SagasuRunning]

@brianreiter5572 It’s also the tooling on the sidewalls of the midsole that channel the forces through the foam. The Tomir 2.0 also has no film/rock plate and has a stack similar to the Kboix…. Year they feel completely different…. And I know the durometer of the EExpure is the same in the two shoes.

[@caseysmith544]

I have thought that all Peba foams need to have a full foot plate or at least 2/3 just past the arch as this is an EVA made in the TPU style but being an EVA made lighter it ends up being like a midsole similar to a peanut shaped yellow sponge only a hair more stable in the foot. TPU can get away with not using a midfoot plate becuse this is often using Pabax or similar nylon plastic material used as the spike plate for old/cheaper track shoes so it will be a bit stiffer closer to a lighter version of EVA like what ASICS uses in the FLYTEFOAM one of the lightest regular foams that no stability/cushion is lost.

[@SagasuRunning]

Definitely not. Full PEBA midsoles, with no plate, carrier foam or shank are amazing. The Nike Peg Plus is a prime example. The Nnormal PEBA foam is very good. But since the midsole has no tooling to control the distribution of the foam under load it can feel too soft. The form itself is quite nice.

[@caseysmith544]

@@SagasuRunning Yes but considering PEBA is used in more road shoes, the needs for this is more liner and a reason why if used in trail shoes the PEBA is often accompanied by rock plate so you have the ability so scramble easier as the shoe is then not forcing the foot forward then with other trail models using a PEBA type/based foam with no plate as then shoe is made more for single track, similar wide dirt track, or gravel road/trail the USA and Canada are known for. Now EVA foam does seem to keep compressing as I have experienced in the Speva and Solyte foams ASICS makes that by the end of the shoes for running the foam is hard with Speva being the harder of the two foams you could get. Speva still found on some cheaper ASICS models a made mainly for trails as this Speva works well as a trail foam due to the higher density with Speva sometimes being called EVA now in cheapest trail/crappy road & light trail models from ASICS as Speva was basically a basic EVA foam made more uniform so each shoe will be nearly 100% the same in no soft or stiff spots.

[@olivierafflatet5287]

Thanks ! Do you have a timeline of availability of this product ? I find it pretty weird it s been a year from anouncement

[@SagasuRunning]

I know nothing. They haven't shared anything about it in the test group. At this point it would be summer next year at the earliest... given testing is still in full swing.

[@Chungdol]

What an honor for you! I'm so glad it works so well for you. Sidenote: I'm not able to speak the name of the shoe out loud... not possible for me lol Edid: the fit and the upper of the Kboix reminds me A LOT of the Nike Ultrafly, I have wide feet and the Ultrafly tends to be too wide for me (I have hallux valgus and widefeet) And it fits with that you are saying, Peba in a trail shoe - oh how great - yeah no... I dont like it at all, especially the 3/4 carbon plate in the ultrafly ruins the zoomX in a trailshoe entirely. You nailed it perfectly. Lose fit because of the wide shape, the very high resilience of ZoomX PLUS Carbon Plat - gives you very very unpleasent bounces that leads to movement into the upper = blisters... hill down the Ultrafly is disgustung. And as you said perfeclty again: for flat trails it is great. And the thing wth the midsole change overall = HELLO ON RUNNING - they copied it already in their new elite shoes.

[@SagasuRunning]

I didn't find the ultrafly THAT wide, though for a Nike trail shoe it is very wide. The midsole insert in the Kboix, in softer foams, if VERY soft, which really plays with the fit of the shoe. It's an interesting engineering problem for softer foams only. The TPU insert doesn''t have the issue. There are other removable "midsole" shoes on the market...but none of them work like this. The others are all essentially removable "insoles" as there is still a thin midsole in the shoe under it. That is not the case with the Kboix, the midsole little pulls out completely leaving just the upper and cupsole. Again, interesting engineering solve and issue here.

[@Chungdol]

@@SagasuRunning thank you

[@BREx1000]

Can you wear shoes without any middle?

[@SagasuRunning]

No.

[@RA-lj5jd]

Would this system work in a road shoe? Would be cool to test different midsoles .

[@SagasuRunning]

It definitely would. I've done about 25k of road running in these to test them. The idea works well.

[@jakeva9802]

Can you do a breakdown of uppers? Engineered vs jaqard(sp?), vs matrix?

[@SagasuRunning]

For trail shoes or just in general?

[@jakeva9802]

@@SagasuRunning just in general.

[@SagasuRunning]

@jakeva9802 ok. I’ll add it to the content roadmap.

[@jakeva9802]

@@SagasuRunning nice, thank you!

[@caseysmith544]

100 kilometers is 62 miles for those who do not do ultramarathons. My dad might never be able to wear a shoe like this Nnormal Kboix because he needs a plastic bottom heated insole that because his arch is so high all the heat will do is move the arch closer to the proper spot for his foot, he would have to trim and the other issue is he has between a B and D with foot for men that is an impossible to find C width and has to wear models that are more narrow like with Brooks and some Nike faster/less cushion models or be able to lace the shoes up tight in a D width. This insert is why when buying a legal super shoe for him as a racing model if he gets back to running, I got at the time the only model that can have the carbon fiber plate swapped out or removed on the One Mix model in case he can't use a plate in the shoe because of his odd insert he needs.

[@SagasuRunning]

Ultras are done in both Kms and Miles…. Just saying. 🤙🏻

[@caseysmith544]

@@SagasuRunning I know, I was helping out the mainly USA audience who some can't go to Metric very easy from Imperial. Even a 10 kilometer/10,000 meters they do not know is the same race or is almost right on 6.2 miles. A 10 Kilometer is actually only 22 meters further then 6.2.

[@SagasuRunning]

@caseysmith544 1 mile =875.483 kilometers 1.61k…. Just for reference

[@caseysmith544]

@@SagasuRunning I knew 1 mile = just shy of 1.61 kilometers/1610 meters but I am not sure on that first number as even in meters it is over a 1/2 a mile at 0.544 as actually 804.62 meters as an exact 1/2 mile.

[@brianreiter5572]

Look. I’m American. Miles are objectively stupid. It’s a unit of marching the Roman Legion. Mile comes into English from Norman French mille meaning 1000 as in 1000 paces or 2000 steps. A Roman Legion could typically march about 20 miles a day. In the sport of running (and cycling too) we are standardized on meters and km. Plus you get more in km and complete them faster. It’s way cooler to run 10k than 6 miles. More practically 1 mile splits are IMO too far apart to use for pacing adjustments. You really need to use 0.5 mile and then there is more math you have to do in your head. 1km splits are pretty good.

[@alb.1911]

How is possible that they can’t change the shoes size when they send to the testers? Make no sense.

[@SagasuRunning]

That’s just how it is with product testing in running shoes. Short production runs, often done in the prototyping facilities, in a few sizes as they can to not waste to much money. For larger companies they will do more common sizes but for a small company like Nnormal they will be as efficient as possible. Now when they do fit tests they will reach out to the people in the testing pool with the correct size foot for what they are making. This was not a fit test, just a general wear test. Fit will be the next block of testers I bet.