The Perplexing Prince Jyggalag - Daedra of Order | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #71

[@alexanderrahl7034]

I would love it, if there was a quest for Sheogorath, where you go to his shrine and he tells you that you're the chosen one. Then you're sent on some long quest chain all over the world where you find other people with powerful abilities or enchanted gear who *also* tell you they are the chosen one. Until the end when you've kill a bunch of OP characters all reminiscent of player characters only to find that Sheogorath was just telling everyone who came to his shrine that they were the chosen one, and gave them an enchanted item. 🤣

[@XenohGG]

This is great lmao

[@CthulhuWarlock]

I wholeheartedly agree , I would love it if the first few times you encounter papa sheo he just trolls you ... possibly with some kind of RNG derived troll quest involved

[@RaunienTheFirst]

Oh my god that's amazing!

[@billygrider24]

This needs to be a mod, I hope someone makes it

[@Gensolink]

absolutely on brand for him to do that

[@Outcrow]

Daedric Princes playing online RPG Other Princes: *Spends hours in character creation screen* Jyggalag: *Beats the game with a default character and PVPs other princes*

[@badluck5647]

There is a lot of chaos in Nirn, so that may be why Jyggalag sat out Lorkhan's project and became a deadra lord.

[@benbittinger9789]

Also, Lorkhan may have just known better than to ask him. Best case scenario, he agrees and ruins the project for all the other Et'Ada.

[@chloec4009]

I love Jyggalag. My favorite Daedric Prince. Either he’s right and going to win in the end and nothing can stop him, or he’s knowingly going to lose but can’t change because change is his antithesis so he’s destined to lose and know.

[@denisrivarola2387]

I feel thats the description of my likely bipolar sickness

[@chisasa9509]

Maybe it is Not the realism in predicting failure: but proof that the inspiration of faith in yourself matters more than anything eles in oblivion or the mundus.

[@babybobo1231]

I can see why jyggalag became sheogorath for awhile

[@mama22boysDL]

same, I wish he was mentioned in skyrim

[@Khoros-Mythos]

@@denisrivarola2387 "Likely" Mental illness is not "quirky", stop pretending to have a debilitating disorder because you think it makes you interesting.

[@badluck5647]

According to Sheogorath, none of the Daedric Princes like Jyggalag. As he puts it: "[...] Malacath is more popular at parties. And Malacath is NOT popular at parties." It makes you wonder how the deadra lords will treat his return.

[@chisasa9509]

In my elder scrolls 6: the game stars at a Daedra Party (Counsel) and they are all talking about Jyggalag's return. How they all are terrified and in need of a great champion to protect them.

[@MasterElements]

Funny little easter egg, if you complete the Shivering isle DLC before doing his shrine quest, when you go DO his shrine quest Haskil talks to you instead. The first line is "Praying to yourself, sir?"

[@He110goodmorning]

I've always found Jyggalag as a being who is not just the deadric prince of all Order, but of Constructed Order specifically. You have already talked about how Determinism doesn't exactly apply well as a broad function of the Elder Scrolls Universe. I think to add to that, Jyggalag then could be seen as someone who promotes Order and Deterministic outcomes. It would be similar to how Sheogorath didn't create Madness and Chaos but often promotes it in his interactions. My own interpretation of how Jyggalag functions in Elder Scrolls is with an analogy comparing him to Peryite: Peryite would see the fallen leaves of a tree and leave them as they were; the leaves will decompose and become food for the worms and mulch for the mushrooms. Jyggalag would see the fallen leaves of a tree and dissect the leaves, ripping apart their veins and stems; he would sort the veins and stems into lines of ascending length and leftover bits into color-coded piles. Since Peryite's followers echo a sentiment of wanting to "preserve natural order", it made sense to me to claim Peryite as some sort of extreme environmental conservationist. Aka someone who does enact order, but only of keeping whatever current orderly system that takes place among mortals and lesser creatures. Jyggalag by comparison would be a more hands-on, "my way or the highway" kind of order.

[@rezetnacht3136]

Jyggy is my favorite prince due to his apparent obscurity. No one knows him outside of those who played the Oblivion dlc and it’s sad not seeing or hearing him in Skyrim. But here’s hoping for ES6! Remember people, get Jyggy with it!

[@royalty843]

Right...even in the mind of madness quest meeting the former champion of cyrodil made no mention even after referencing the oblivion crisis, his time in the thieves guild and dark brotherhood.

[@kingjamesthespartan4010]

I agree with you 100%

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

I am also my favourite as well

[@roofied_galahad1675]

Gigolag

[@Lupinemancer87]

Mine is Hircine, but Jyggalag is also pretty cool.

[@threesofthree6100]

I really like what Michael said about why Jyggalag would continue failing the Graymarch endlessly over and over. It makes a lot of sense. Say for example his Library was recorded at the very beginning before the creation of Mundus, when he used his system of logical cause and effect to chart the exact flow of all events to ever happen. If that logical series of events ended unfavourably for him (as it very clearly did) he would be unable to do anything about it without denying his own nature. Attempting to stop his own demise would be a decisive refutation of everything he stood for. So understanding that, he's forced to simply go along with events he knows will only lead to his own suffering and defeat. That could be why the apostle of Sotha Sil said he went mad upon understanding his nature. Because he predicted his own doom and had no choice but to enact it. But... I doubt he knew he was gonna be set free by the Champion of Cyrodiil just by the nature of what the Prisoner represents. The Prisoner is anathema to determinism. The one scrap of true freedom in a sea of fates set in stone.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Yep, poor guy was finally freed 🥲 Now he can be Orderly in his own Plane, a beacon of Order within the chaos of Oblivion

[@PinkWytchBytch]

I like to imagine that Jyggalag is the very embodiment of severe OCD. Like it goes past objects and routine patterns. He sees everything n existence as being wrong and off place and out of order. The feeling of being so uncomfortably irritable and squirmy just because the room I sit in is out of order can make me feel like I’m halfway crazy some days. If it can be this un-undersatndble for mortals, imagine how awfully mad it’d drive a Daedric prince who can sense the imperfections in even the Aether around them in the air (just my two cents as someone who has a form of OCD)

[@badluck5647]

He is part of the prince of mental illness, so extreme OCD would make sense.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

@@badluck5647 what is more insane than trying to impose order in the chaos of Oblivion?

[@RaunienTheFirst]

You've made me want to interpret the Daedric Princes as mental disorders.

[@badluck5647]

@@RaunienTheFirst An obsession with cheese

[@ludicrousfunone5705]

I love the idea of Jyggalag's library. I wonder whose library is bigger, Hermaues Mora's or Jyggalag's?

[@jackmarston8337]

I'd say it is Herma Mora and considering the other princes cursed Jyggalag who then became Sheogorath who got the library destroyed, it's definitely Herma Mora.

[@jackmarston8337]

I'm saying that and it hurts because Jyggalag is my favorite prince too. But hey, he was the most powerful prince and that's why the others cursed him

[@ludicrousfunone5705]

@@jackmarston8337 yeah obviously now. I probably should have specified. I meant who's library was bigger before Jyggalag's was destroyed? But yeah I'm inclined to agree with you! Mora probably had the bigger library.

[@Zeivusgaming]

The voice of Sheogorath in Morrowind is the same actor of Haskil in Oblivion. I think the connection didn't exist until Oblivion. Edit: Jyaggalag fits as an OCD mad god

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

Wait. THIS CANNOT BE. Thank You, This pleases me.

[@awkwardllama0509]

Something that was REALLY well done with the Shivering Isles is that it is just as much a litteral place as metaphorical, Im really hoping that this design concept is used again

[@MrDelferi123]

Did I just listen an argument about determinism in a podcast about video game lore? Also, if Anu is deterministic, is Padomay probabilistic? As Jyggalag embodies determinism, you could also call him the Prince of Newtonian Mechanics. As his opposite, is Sheogorath then the Daedric Prince of Quantum Mechanics? I think we need to get to the bottom of this.

[@TheMeteoDragoon]

I’m hoping that we can finally do a quest for this daedric prince.

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

Same. I might try and return but I'm really enjoying baking biscuits in Oblivion.

[@shinon748]

Yea i hope he gets some love. Either in TES6 or a future patch for ESO.

[@badluck5647]

@@shinon748 I hope ESO doesn't do another Greymarch, since it would be the same story except you fail to break the curse. It would prefer to see the aftermath of the greymarch as a new society rebuilds in the Shivering Isles. Maybe some lost artifacts of Jyggalag...

[@shinon748]

@@badluck5647 doesn't have to be a Greymarch. Jyggylag can just be part of a larger plot with other Daedric Lords like what was done for the Summerset expansion.

[@badluck5647]

@@shinon748 Except he only shows up during the Greymarch. That is the curse.

[@starplatinum3573]

Thank you for making video on my favourite daedra, I really hope he comes back on next elder scrolls. It will be very delighting to see a deity based on order for you to follow. The only daedra I'd consider following and worshipping.

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

I'm also my favourite as well.

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

And thank you for willing to worship me.

[@badluck5647]

Because free will is overrated?

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

@@badluck5647 Yes

[@aceundead4750]

The reason for a library and a servant with a perfect memory of the library's contents is in case the library gets destroyed, or if you just dont wanna listen to someone tell you stuff.

[@Evarakeus]

Also, why not have a library? I feel like the same question could be asked of Herma Mora's library

[@aceundead4750]

@@Evarakeus exactly. Libraries are great, wanna read a gripping thriller: library, wanna quick laugh from Archie: library, want some music or movies: library, want a place where nobody is gonna look for your enemies: library.

[@Itsabl_r]

Honestly? I'm crossing my fingers TES6 features more of him and the person/humanity of him, even if you could say there is lacking in all his macabre and sole outlook on the world around him. We got to fight him in Oblivion, get his sword in CC TES5, I'd say it's high time some of the underdogs of the daedra have their limelight. Peyrite, l'm looking at you too. Me and a friend came up with a interesting idea for TES6 or rather a game in general. The idea is you are a daedric prince/entity, what role you fill outside of the ones already set in stone is based on your overall choices throughout the story, but of course you are stricken with Amnesia, probably the result of some rivalry or treachery from other gods, Dae or Aed. So you start off assuming your mortal, and with that assumption comes the power of belief, which ultimately convinces yourself of mortality (just a way to lore the fact that you can die, but perhaps lore save scrapping/reload as either zero sum or simple your own power). Throughout the story you interact with the other mortals and princes, you can admonish other deities of course, like that of Boethiah and Lorkhan, which implicates influence but later in the story is focused heavily on your relationship with them, or even the Aedra(?). Of course as you are thrown into the plot of the story, perhaps a war between Daedra pitted up against man and mer with an overwhelming crusade of Divinity similar to that of the aftermath of Oblivion and the Vigilantes of Stenddar in that both Man and Mer during this era have been encapsulated by their Aedric worship, and have grown restless in tolerating this seemingly chaotically ruled society with subplots in between. Perhaps it was the intervention of the adamantine towers and the Thalmor that brought you to this plane of Oblivion, Mundus, or Tamriel rather. Regardless, in similar inspiration to the Shivering Ilses DLC, you are a god, but you just don't know it yet, you are perhaps reborn from the ashes of old, yet your powers still very much immature and unstable. You craft your sphere as you slowly bur surely craft your own plane of oblivion, how you'd do so would be implicative of your nature, tracked throughout the progress of the game until a well executed climax of unveil. But if Lorkhan himself was torn asunder... what is stopping others, Princes... Men... Mer from doing the same? Idk. Just an idea.

[@nicholasfallbrook9810]

Playing the mortal incarnation of Jyggalag as you slowly learn the mortal concepts of emotion, free will, personal expression, and creativity would be really fun. Though I'd also be happy if we had a questline starring the mortal Jyggalag as he comes to understand things outside his rigid Sphere. Maybe we become buddies with him, and when he regains his power and memories he promises to always remember our shared adventures. Maybe he gives you some relics as thanks for being there for him when he did not know himself.

[@Itsabl_r]

@@nicholasfallbrook9810 that's not a bad take neither, I think one of the largest concepts people over look in these titles and books a that even if a character is limited to how he is displayed that doesn't mean that even the otherworldly don't have emotions, feelings, thoughts, pride and shame. Take Azura and the Box, or Boethiah and Trinimak.

[@nicholasfallbrook9810]

@@Itsabl_r I view it more that a deity cannot truly understand mortal life unless they live it, though they can still try as seen by Azura. Jyggalag, if he were to experience a full life on Nirn as a comparatively ordinary person that may let him grow and evolve beyond what he used to be. In a sense, through accepting further limits, he is able to break his own.

[@Itsabl_r]

@@nicholasfallbrook9810 FAIR!

[@badluck5647]

I'm hoping to expand on the story of trying to reestablish his powers as a Deadra Lord while his rival Lords attempt to crush him in the meantime. It would make a boring deadra lord into an interesting tale.

[@TaxFraudTutorials]

Yes, this. But also given how he parted with the champion of cyrodil I think it would make sense if like, Sheogorath teamed up with him and kinda protects him from the other princes.

[@badluck5647]

@@TaxFraudTutorials I think it would be the reverse where Sheogorath is the one who wants to destroy him most.

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

I hope to exact my revenge too and take my place as the most unique Daedric Prince who is not boring at all.

[@TaxFraudTutorials]

@@badluck5647 Maybe, I guess it depends on how much the Hero of Kvatch can remember from their last encounter with Jyggalag. They didn't really antagonize eachother, honestly the stakes felt pretty low through that whole DLC because Jyggalag wasn't really a "villain".

[@handlesaredumb9]

I was really surprised there was nothing for him in Skyrim when it first came out.

[@greulich9635]

I think that it would work like something like this: Your future is written in a book and you act like it because that is the layed out path of your free will interacting with the world. However, as soon as a being from the outside introduces another factor, for example, hand you the book, it changes because you know know your fate you cna go against it.

[@Theology.101]

Jyggy: so Anuic he became patomaic.

[@thalmoragent9344]

*"Ah yes, Jygga-Chad, a pocket of Order within a Realm of nothing but chaotic planes. He is perhaps the 1 Daedric Prince we in the Dominion would truly respect... as well as Malacath, our fallen Warrior"*

[@gabriellebloomfield3568]

😎

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

It's Jyggalag, Not "Jygga-Chad"

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459 My apologies Jyggalag, I meant no disrespect towards such a powerful Et'Ada such as yourself. I meant it as a compliment, for your tenacity was so powerful it nearly drove you insane, until you were finally free of Sheogorath, after which you then traveled the Void of Oblivion, and are now free to think and ponder on the nature of the Aurbis.

[@etinarcadiaego7424]

Death to the Thalmor! Hail Sithis! Padomaic for life! Praise Lorkhan etc. Whatever pisses the Thalmor off the most.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@etinarcadiaego7424 Padomay and Sithis are essential to the Aurbis and its Primordial interplay... but Lorkhan went too far, and stole our power, so... glad Trinimac tore into him

[@clericofchaos1]

now that sheogorath and jyggalag are two different people again, i kind of hope this guy gets his own game at some point. The idea of one prince leading an almost unstoppable army against the other princes is just too ripe with story potential to be left in the dust. Honestly, if the material plane is left mostly out of the conflict, they could do a spin off game where you actually play AS a daedra in one of the princes armies. Which i think would be really cool. Instead of standard races you get to pick a prince to serve and just get to play whatever the most humanoid daedra they control is.

[@awkwardllama0509]

i would play the hell out of that

[@3naruhina]

So listening to the whole conversation about mantling. Does that mean that technically someone could mantle Trinimac since there is a empty space for him after he became Malacath?

[@theace8502]

Who's to say trinimac hasn't already been mantled? After all, he's still worshipped in a lot of places

[@badluck5647]

It would explain how some Orcs believe that Trinimac and Malacath are separate entities.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

Potentially. Mantling is a long process, though. The HoK didn't immediately become Sheogorath, we don't officially see him again for 180 years. It's also a very precise process. You have to act so much like the being that the Aurbis can no longer tell the difference. At which point, neither can you, or anyone else. And there hasn't really been much opportunity for being the finest warrior at the side of Auri-El, the one who slew Lorkhan and tore out his heart. The person who came closest (if you believe the Secret Song of Wulfharth) was Nerevar, as Shor had reclaimed his heart at the Battle of Red Mountain only for Nerevar to use the tools of Kagrenac to cut it out again. Unfortunately, he then died of his wounds.

[@porridgeairlines8065]

The philosophical discussion of determinism is my favourite part of each episode

[@joshuastrickland5264]

Today on fudgemuppet, we are going to discuss neurodivergence and specifically dissociative personality disorder. When you need the world to be a certain way very badly but you realize that it can never be that way a path can reveal itself and perhaps a split in identities can occur.

[@pingpong5877]

Sheogorath REKTS Himself with FACTS & LOGIC!

[@karandeosingh2356]

Jyggalag is my favorite daedric prince. He strugles for perfection, just like Sauron and their designs are mind blowing.

[@caligulawellington3171]

Anyone else thought about that Sheogorath had red hair in Daggerfall, but gray in Oblivion? Maybe the Greymarch is also a metaphor for dementia, and every incarnation of Sheogorath goes through a lifecycle from childishness too dementia and the obsession of both avoiding death and trying to keep order when everything in your life turns to chaos.

[@chaserseven2886]

id like to see this prince come back

[@badluck5647]

Legends doesn't count!

[@royalty843]

Find him on the next greymarch

[@kingjamesthespartan4010]

That would be great I think they’re both awesome

[@kingjamesthespartan4010]

@@luchaluchalucha I’m not sure but it would be cool for him to come back at least have a few good mentionings of him I mean that’s lore breaking to nothing have at least mentionings of him right

[@badluck5647]

@@luchaluchalucha Jyggalag was separated from Sheogorath, so it has prevented the sharing of an Oblivion realm between the two and therefore the need of the Grey March. Jyggalag has been left to roam Oblivion and maybe establish a realm of his own -- unless the other deadra lords destroy him before he regains his powers.

[@benbittinger9789]

In regard to what they were saying about the nature of Haskill, this is my understanding: Haskill mantled Sheogorath and became a vestige, which means that there once was a mortal breton man that entered the Shivering Isles and became a part of it. As a vestige, Haskill is not physically a breton anymore, but his body is an exact copy of his breton form that was made from the waters of Oblivion (chaotic creatia), and then filled with the soul of a daedra. All daedra and the daedric realms are a part of the daedric prince that created them, so in that sense he "mantled" Sheogorath. He was once a human that became one with Sheogorath by becoming a part of the Shivering Isles. His body was replaced by one made of the chaotic creatia, and a new daedra eventually replaced the original Haskill's anuic soul. This new daedra does not have the full memories of the original Haskill or of his exact nature. If this is true, then the new daedric soul became Haskill by mantling him. He is truly Haskill in this sense, but he is now physically a part of the Shivering Isles, and therefore, Sheogorath.

[@PsychicKirby2]

I find Jyggalag and Sheogorath are 2 sides of madness. Sheogorath is madness in disorder with the themes of dementia, mania, etc. whereas Jyggalag is the madness of imposing a self-defined order. The best metaphor I have is OCD times a billion.

[@GrandSupremeDaddyo]

The release of another edition of Skyrim is like the Greymarch in the sense that the new patch undoes all the chaotic work of the modders/Sheogorath and upon their return they are left to rebuild the madness and mania of mods.

[@Khoros-Mythos]

This is actually an awesome theory.

[@JDOHMythos]

This is the episode that I learned what the Elder Scrolls really are

[@mesektet5776]

As for determinism of freewill vs fate in Elder Scrolls they do a good job of humoring it, with making solid predictions vague until confirmed. See Dagail as an example - "Let me see your hand. I see the City in the Hand, and the Hand in the Stars. The Tower guards the Gate, but the Gate holds the Key. The King is the Key, and the Hand guards the King." - that makes perfect sense in retrospect but sounds like gibberish at first encounter. But that philosophical quagmire aside. I really want to see Jyggalag return, I mean ALL the Daedric Princes joined hands and sang kumbaya to beat him, that is unprecedented, you have any idea how scary that make Jyggalag? I want Elder Scrolls VI to have Sheogorath's Daedric quest going into each realm of Oblivion to collect on debts of all the Daedra that have lost bets with him, and take large sections of each realm from their Princes, and then turn around and have it turn out you aren't collecting them for Sheogorath but he is passing them onto an old friend and have Jyggalag show up to re-inherit a realm as a full Daedric Prince again - with him being integrated from that game on as a re-crowned full Prince complete with altars and mini cults.

[@dootytood2643]

Every library needs a librarian just like every museum needs a curator. Dias is a reference point. A guide to Jyggalag's library of logics and knowings. Think of Urag in the Arcaneum. They are there to insure that the knowledge is not lost, even if the books themselves physically are.

[@morrigankasa570]

With Free Will and Fate both can exist. You may have an Over-Arching Fate but the details within it are Free Will.

[@cinderrr3801]

Didn't even know you guys had merch until you mentioned it. Totally snagging one of those mask t-shirts!

[@gregschwann1201]

I like the idea that Jyggalag simply succumbed to flagrant insanity due to the futility of his domain of Order, but it just seems that his situation contains so much blatant irony that I'm compelled to believe that the Daedric Princes actually cursed him. For one thing, he is freed when defeated by the Champion of Cyrodiil meaning that he simply has to deviate from his established pattern of behavior to be released yet constantly fails to do so. And another thing, it would appear that his return is based upon each Era as established by the inhabitants of the Mundus, meaning that his resurgence is predicated upon the whims of entropic mortals and heroes, a notion that would doubtlessly be infuriating to the Prince of Order.

[@envoy2500]

I think some modders would be Anuic. It just depends on what they're working on. Obviously the Thomas the Tank Engine guys are Padomayic, but Beyond Skyrim and Tamriel Rebuilt and stuff like that are all about creating roughly cannon areas that are already supposed to be there. Sounds pretty Anuic to me.

[@Khoros-Mythos]

I see where you're coming from, but they're still expanding upon the intended confines of the game. To be truly Anuic you would have to play vanilla original Skyrim without any patches.

[@arcticdragon3565]

tes 6 needs Jyggalag so they can expand his cannon lore

[@elderscord6820]

I wait the whole week for Sundays. Relaxing evening with a fudgemuppet podcast 😎

[@dootytood2643]

You could also refer to Martin Septum and how he mantled Akatosh. He physically became a dragon. After Dagon was defeated, Martin didn't revert back but instead turned to stone in dragon form.

[@RaunienTheFirst]

He didn't Mantle Akatosh because Akatosh still exists. What happened was the power contained in the Amulet of Kings (the souls of every Dragonborn emperor) flowed into him, turning him into an *avatar* of Akatosh. A fragment of His power, but given that each one is literally the soul of a Dragon, added together (the 22 Septims (or 21, seeing as Talos is off being a god), the 5 (or six if we count Juilek) from the Reman Dynasty, and the unknown number from the Alessian Empire) that's an enormous amount of power.

[@lilwindingo1100]

Balance is a pretty interesting concept for a daedric prince to embody. Depending on his interpretation of what balance is maybe allowing an outsider to break the reoccurring curse that was placed on him would then bring about a real balance. Both madness and balance could exist at the same time and not completely overshadow one another, becoming their own concepts and own domains unopposed by their opposite counterpart. To me I’d think that would be a true balance.

[@daltsu3498]

Yessss!!! Thanks for doing this guys 😊

[@Salvadorzin1]

Jyggalag will probably comeback to bite the other Daedric Princes on their @s... probably we will have a convergence of madness and order forces. I don't know if Sheogorath, by now, remembers a little who he was in Oblivion, if yes, he doesn't see Jyggalag as a foe, but as a powerful ally.

[@Twilight5007]

damn that talk about knowing what you are doing won't change anything but you have to do it anyways just described OCD pretty dang well.

[@acekirito210]

They should've featured him in Skyrim seeing as he was released or whatever in Oblivion. Though I guess it's understandable seeing as he probably wouldn't have had any shrines to communicate through. They could probably feature him as part of a major quest in TES VI though.

[@notsae66]

"Mods are Padomaic." I love this, I love this more than I thought possible; a lore friendly excuse for lore unfriendly events, delightful! Also, Jyggalag makes for an intensely interesting villain from the idea that he is the embodiment of "Order does not mean Good" as the Enemy Of Freedom. He's like a Chaos God of Order, and given he is now free of his ancient curse he could make for the most terrifying and effective villain the world has ever seen; a Daedric Prince and all his forces, unhindered by stupidity and infighting and one hundred percent focused on achieving their goals using logical thought and algorithmic predictions. If done well, he could be a terrifying threat to the world and make for an excellent villain. I highly doubt they'd actually do that, but they could.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

i really like Micheals take on the whole destroying shivering isles thing.

[@bosmeriosmosis215]

Haskill: hahaha silly mortals have limited perspective. Vearmina: I'm the Daedric Prince of dreams. Malacath: I'm the Daedric Prince or Orcs and Feces Sheogorath: Cheese. Jyygalag: Order. Haskill: mortals have such limited perspective

[@demonphyre6186]

Anticipations? Tribunal? Reclamations? No, this is FudgeMuppet

[@scarletbard6511]

Until they make more content with Jyggalag, I won't say he's my favorite. But at the very least, I do think he's an incredibly thought provoking and well written character, for the small amount of time I've seen him. Thanks for the video, it was quite enjoyable.

[@badluck5647]

He has more stories to tell. For example: How does a Deadra Lord create his own Oblivion realm? Will he find his own place in the void or will he Grey March another realm of Oblivion until its his own? How will he reestablish his powers as the other Lords want to destroy him?

[@jyggalagthedaedricprinceof8459]

Thank you.

[@James-ep2bx]

Well Jyggalag being anuric actually has a sort of symbolic symmetry to it, as a sort of counter balance to shor/lorcar's padamaic nature

[@granockss9548]

For some instance, I think jyggalag now tries to conquer the realms of the other prince's realm in the beginning of timeline in elder scrolls 5. Elder scrolls 4 and 5 are 200 years pass, so it will make sense that jyggalag needs time to recover. Didn't clavicus vile mention in tes5 he have troubles in his realms, that why he lose for instance his "other half" the dog.

[@AChickenWingWithLemonPepper]

It’s also the assumption that Dyas is telling the truth but he could be intentionally lying to empower the hero of kvatch so that he can release his master from the cycle.

[@azuk4727]

I think the way oblivion handled the whole situation is great. Skyrim definitely needed to explore a jygallag a little more

[@skullwolf1337]

Love to see a dlc or storyline quest form the perspective of gyggalg in the elder scrolls 6

[@blakeforbes768]

I love Jyggalag he is my favorite character in Elder scrolls his OCD Order is my jam

[@FleeingAmoeba]

You guys should watch Patrician TVs Oblivion retrospective. Not saying what he says is lore friendly, but he makes an incredibly compelling case that the Oblivion Crisis and Grey March ended the exact way that Dagon and Jyggalag intended them too. I'd love to hear you guys dig into that with your lore knowledge.

[@thomasrosendahl2783]

It would be the all time best podcast if Fudgemuppet invited Zaric Zhakaron and Indigo gaming to a podcast where they talked about most of the Elder Scrolls games primarily Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Why has that not happened yet?

[@lazulenoc6863]

Jyggalag's sword is so non-magical that it surpasses magical resistance. He may have left Skyrim alone because he has no determined purpose there. That or he found himself organising a new realm and was too busy to care.

[@ryancier]

I mean, Jyggalag and Sheogorath are just the Chaoskampf. "Der Chaoskampf" is an old historical/archeological idea that, actually, the first mythological conflicts were not of "evil" and "good", but Order (masculine) and Chaos (feminine), and that their conflict and contrast creates the universe and history. A famous example is Marduk and Tiamat of ancient Mesopotamian religions. Thus, you can see how "masculine" Jyggalag supposedly is. He's just all armor and weaponry (gladius = penis, fun fact, not just Sword.) Sheogorath is *flamboyant* and *fashionable* (notably feminine presenting traits). In a sense, you might say they are also a microcosm of Anu and Padomai. Jyggalag also doesn't even really look like the other daedra, and much of the daedric "princes" in general are feminine-presenting, or have appeared as women once before, even if they have no gender, or are gender-fluid. Of course, they come from Padomai, the primordial spirit of Chaos and Change, contrasting Anu's Order.

[@tantrumtv4270]

I just fin your voices soothing at this point, and the Skyrim music melodic... easy zzzzzzs when I wanna listen to something cool whilst I'm falling asleep

[@HickoryDickory86]

Who says the previous Greymarches failed? I mean, the second to last one produced Ciirta, whose eye is a necessary part in stopping the last one, releasing Jyggalag from his curse, and breaking the cycle.

[@TylerAForti]

The reason he is a Prince is because his very existence is that his order is akin to someone with OCD. But he knows that his existence brings disorder as well, so he is in a constant compulsive paradox. Though this was put at ease by separating him and seragorath into two entities.

[@ryanbrown5395]

Please do a food of tamriel pod. It would be really cool to see all the different cultures diets.👍🏻 keep up the good work!

[@dekudex2331]

The particularly interesting thing about Jygg is that he is a Daedric Prince of Order, which is essentially the opposite of Padomay - and I feel like most all Daedra align with chaos/Padomay. Edit: Hahaha not even 5 minutes in and Drew takes the words out of my mouth

[@darthstigater6642]

Aedric v Deadric is the question of who "donated" their power for the creation of Mundus. It does not predetermine whether the entity is chaotic or not.

[@teacherjohn_stoic-dreamven7373]

Solid podcast, and a crystal clear look into the madness of pure order. Thanks guys!

[@Vahmung]

In the time of TES6 we will definitely see Jyggalag and a quest for his boon. Being defeated in TES4 would have him set out to recover his powerbase. It is safe to say we would see some mortal worshippers in High Rock. It is difficult to imagine content for him though as his realm of "Order" expands to other Daedric Princes and their spheres. Like Peryite and Molag Bal. To force all under the order of Jyggalag could be torture, plagues, many different effects. I do know the difference between the three Princes, but the method applied are all the same. I cannot see a unique quest experience for Jyggalag in TES6 that isn't the same as the two others or just something that is trying to break what Sheogorath has done. Feels like a one trick pony.

[@mama22boysDL]

it would be cool if there was a DLC where jyggalag makes his return

[@LadySeraphineCC]

I feel like you guys don't see the opportunity with having Jyggalag become an integral part. I mean maybe you're right but It would be nice if he could still be part of Nirn. I would love to do quests for him or just fight him off. Lol. I had a whole theory in my head going about him to type but I forgot all about it 🤣

[@haphazardlark1502]

Honestly i love the break from form here. Don’t get me wrong I adore the podcasts where there’s so much material it’s hard to even fit it all into the episode but in this case there’s just enough info to act as a springboard. Little prompts that youncan just play around with and expand on. I know that’s not everyone’s jam but it leads to a more meandering episode, and I mean that in a good way. Maybe we don’t leave with any more answers than we started with but the act of wandering around poking at what little info exists and playing with the empty space and possibilities between those few concrete points is really fun.

[@Sage-uq6em]

FAVORITE Daedric Prince! ABSOLUTE JYGGACHAD.

[@Penguinfur]

I think that Scott might be misunderstanding determinism and conflating it with some kind of materialism. Determinism is merely the belief that all events which occur, and all actions which a person may take, are the result of previously existing causes. That is to say, when a person makes a choice they are not choosing freely* to make that choice, but rather are merely subject to the whims of their own biology, chemistry, physics, history, psychology, etc. *When I say freely, I mean simply that the choice they make is a choice made by them alone. This implies a certain metaphysical, idealistic understanding of the world, and usually coexists with notions of the soul, spirit, God, Afterlife, etc. That's free will. Furthermore, the existence of the metaphysical, i.e. anything beyond the material, physical world, and the existence of souls (soul gems), alternate dimensions (Planes of Oblivion), and gods does not necessarily contradict a deterministic world view. The existence of souls, which is often used to argue the case of free will, does not necessarily mean that the chocies a person makes are not predetermined, as the existence of a soul does not inherently mean one has free will.

[@enenrah4901]

if sotha sill requires machines that store memories to remember everything daius definetly doesnt have infinite memory storage.

[@kw8295]

the reason you have a library is to have a physical backup

[@bellystraw]

Dear lord, you cracked the code at the start! Todd Howard = Jyggalag

[@RavinBlackhart]

Spoiler alert: PAM from Fallout 4 is Jyggalag. Both only able to know everything through logic determining order.

[@jordanblake5916]

No mention of Hermaeus Mora's library and any possible relationship between the two? Could Hermaeus Mora's library just be a rotten trophy of Jyggalag's? Seems odd that he would just collect all that knowledge to lt most of it rot.

[@fatty1040]

1:05 You just made me realize how close the gap between order and choas/madness is. Like at some point if youre..."Over-Ordering" isnt that action technically a disorder or like insane/mad? If so thats actually a really clever way to *Initiate* the curse. Its like the ship of thesus..sort of. 6:06 Oh wow another epiphany what if when they say "Discovered his nature" what if he figured out he's in a video game (Not discovered hes in a dream like the in story characters to zero sum or become the new dreamer) since he's order couldn't he discover that everything in elder scrolls is disordered on purpose by devlopers? Lets take it back a bit and instead say he discovered that order purposely has no purpose? wouldnt that hint him of a higher being/fate (predetermined route but who determined it ) which would make him realize he's not order at all because if he has no free will (predetermined) then he's a *SUPPORTER* of order not the one who started it. However if he decides he is the one who did start the concept of order then he is infact breaking order by giving himself that freedom. 16:15 Something occured to me. Isnt madness a human quality? Like no matter who you are as a person you have the "ability" to go mad? Like it's built in to us. So could essentially anyone mantle sheogorath? (Again if its a curse, clever that it is something common that triggers it) but then hermaous mora is also capable of inciting madness and is also knowledgeable. (Maybe thats where the library went?) If so that means 3 deadric princes and possibly regular people are connected. 22:19 Another thought. If Jman had a library that predicted every single event that could happen he essentially completed his role as order for nirn but then what else is he trying to keep in order? Either himself or something outside of daedra realms/nirn/tamriel maybe skyrims engine ...and bugs lol. For example lets say everything Elderscrolls takes place inside a cube he could be discovering/ordering the x, y, and z *LINES* that make that cube.

[@mistertaz94]

Jyggalag is confirmed Admin of ESO

[@poknberry5795]

I always thought Jyggalag was really cool. He's supposed to be this unique, dangerous spirit that actually threatens all existence with his conquest against chaos. The way he is just so aggressive towards anything that is not crystal. Crucifying you as if you are, almost morally, wrong. For not being orderly. I know people say that Oblivion by its nature could simply never be orderly or even fully understood but I disagree. I feel it was Jyggalag's destiny to do what normally would be impossible, to bring true order to all of existence. So that he himself would cease to exist, and everything would be one. And Mundus would be nothing but a crystal dimension. While all the other daedra and aedra are just having fun and doing stuff because they're bored with their immortality, Jyggalag is on a desperate mission to correct something that he views as the most horrible, outrageous crime: Chaos. Also, what they said about the knights of order is interesting. They said they're not daedra, but a different class entirely, and that Jyggalag chose them because they have no imagination, not that they came from Jyggalag. This implies if another god wanted to employ them, they could. If so, how different would they look and behave?

[@redghost5182]

Yeah I've always thought the same, that jyggalag was the exception, that he was capable of bringing order to oblivion something that no one else could do In the shivering isles one quote that originally made me think this was "the other princes, fearful of my power cursed me with madness, doomed me to live as sheogorath a broken soul reigning in a broken land." Now what power would they fear? I think it's that jyggalag can do something that no other can do, something that should be impossible. Which is bring order to oblivion

[@luckyjedi429]

17:48 I think it’s less of a mantling and more of a reincarnation.

[@fresh2182]

I genuinely think that "the end of every era" DOES refer to the end of every era on mundus, maybe not just because of what happened on mundus, but because mundus and Oblivion are linked in a way where their eras are linked. Think about it: for the first time in almost 400 years, it's the end of an era during the events of Oblivion, and it just so happens to be the end of an era in the Shivering Isles as well?

[@hansgerman3437]

You guys realise, that these Podcasts and Lore Videos are pretty dope philosophical discussions at this point? Keep'em comming.

[@chisasa9509]

The ONLY prince that matters!

[@LightningNC]

I would've trimmed a few seconds here and there to make this one an even 42:00.

[@patrickbarner1380]

I miss jyggalag I love tes4 the shivering Isle I hope we get more of him

[@devinjansa9329]

I think that the notions the Altmer have about Sheohoraths origin make some sense and need to be held by someone in the ES universe, prior to Lorkhans creation of Mundus and his mortals, their would be no place for madness in the pantheon of daedric princes. “Madness” implies order as madness is the perversion or lack of order, so order must come first and if there are no “free” mortals to corrupt then sheogorath would have nothing to do besides reign over his own realm of oblivion that would ironically be chaotic and mad by design, which is hardly true madness. This lack of madness would make him unrecognizable from the other daedric princes.

[@maxwheatley4497]

Maybe the next we see jyggalag, he'll admit that he misses being sheogorath. Like it's a guilty pleasure he developed

[@devilsadvocate1380]

Dias could be a back up for the library

[@Corey_Mckilling]

Id say Sheogorath is of sorts the Loki of ESO, mischievious and crazy with no end goal other than to satisfy his own personal amusement, whilst Jygglag is the opposite.. pure channeled insanity

[@ethanwhisman5459]

I think because of Oblivion is DLC I fell in love with the mad God But I also fell in love with the great Prince of order because I just thought they were so cool And balanced each other out and no other gods in the daedric princes are that unique in my opinion I don't think either one of them have tried to take over the world which makes me like them a little more I'm probably in the very low percent who likes the gray Prince jig-a-lag I'm sorry I can't I can't pronounce or spell his name correctly that's why I call him the Gary Prince

[@LtFRO]

Chaos is order, order is chaos

[@killerchesny]

What if the real Greymarch was the friends we made along the way?

[@jamster8764]

Where was Jyygalag during 4E 201? Preparing his armies...