The Problem of Evil and how Progressives Fail to Give a Meaningful Answer, w/ Doug Groothuis

[@micksheldon2598]

My wife was diagnosed with Primary Progressive Aphasia almost three years ago. Her decline seems quicker than many others, the disease does not conform, goes at its own insidious pace. Married 33 years, just retired to visit our Light Houses and CivilWar Battlefields. We saved and did the right things, but fate had a different story for us. Thank you for this podcast, went ahead and bout Doug's book about his journey. I am sure we have similar stories, so glad and inspiring to see someone come out still put Christ first and leading others. Hope I can get there brother, standing on His promises.

[@DavidKing-qd3sp]

Mick - I read your story and I just wanted to send my condolences and wish you all the best - life is more than hard for many - take care!

[@RaptureReadyPam]

🙏🏽

[@overit1343]

5:33 When he says Jesus was the truest form of innocence…you have no idea how strangely comforting this was to hear! My younger brother and I both grew up in a strict IF Baptist home. We were both s.a. and physically abused by our step father from the age of 2-11. We both have had our moments of stepping back from our faith because of questioning why God would allow that to happen to us as very little children and for so long. We’ve never been able to answer that question. However, hearing this statement from your guest today, I’ve never heard this before nor thought of this before and it’s absolutely true. This was extremely comforting to hear. That might sound really strange, but it was almost like a height lifted off my shoulders hearing this. Thank you for this video!

[@brandysnyder4606]

😢 Great point. I'm so thankful you pointed that out! I'm also so sorry you had to endure such evil.

[@dansdojodevotional2419]

Your story of enduring is so encouraging.

[@RaptureReadyPam]

I heard Joni eareckson tada say God allows what he hates to accomplish what he loves-we see this on the cross. She sees this in her suffering. Hopefully, by God’s grace you can see it in your life as God works through you to share the Gospel.

[@RaptureReadyPam]

I want to add that it’s so hard for me to hear about children suffering. I’m in no way trying to give you a trite answer. God bless you.

[@d3nzal0]

Thank you so much for this interview. My mother just died in January from PPA and my dad is struggling , they were married 48 years😢

[@Weissguys6]

This subject means so much to me. Thank you, Alisa. ❤️🙏❤️

[@faithbasedliving9391]

Alissa Childers, thank you for allowing God to gift you with teaching and listening. You and Melissa have taught me so much in a shirt amount of time. I feel the armor of God when I learn about apologetics

[@jimfarnell5813]

I have Dr. Groothuis’ 2nd ed. Christian Apologetics… Wonderful new tool… brilliant thoughtful writing… resides right next to McDowells’ Evidence… in my library… love it… Thank you, sir, for your scholarship & your books which help equip mere mortals like me who argue for the only reasonable faith ✝️☦️✝️

[@GodWokeMeUp]

I'm really excited to watch this one! I am trying hard not to be annoyed by progressive Christian views. I was suggested the, "God is Grey" channel because she was upset over your viewpoints and had your name in the title of one of her videos. I listened to her viewpoint but I failed to understand how anything she said was biblical in anyway... I have talked to a lot of new-age and progressive Christians. It seems they aren't actually reading the Bible but that they are picking and choosing verses from the Bible and twisting it to fit their ideas. It's like they are trying to take Jesus and rebrand him like a product to make him more appealing to the sinful nature of this world. Jesus is not a product...

[@Rebecca_counting_it_all_JOY]

Progressive Christianity is so confusing.

[@briannehill7583]

Well said!

[@AnastasiaR]

That channel is so petty and lacks substance. The channel name should give us more than enough information I suppose.

[@cpg1355]

God bless you Alisa & the truth you continue to fight for! Your podcast is so appreciated ❤

[@frankalbertyap9132]

A story that tells how bad experiences or evil can lead to good, and that it's only God who sees it all. He is the only One who makes all things work for the good. Praise Him!

[@mrwiggiewoo]

Sadly, I think the book, " God is Not My Dog" needs to be written.

[@StevenGraffius]

Two of my favorite thinkers. Thanks for doing this!

[@KathyakaNina]

Wow what a episode! Hearing Doug share his story and the topic of evil. Rey well done. Really helped me understood why the Gosepel HAS a answer on this. God bless you both Doug & Alisa!

[@lt7378]

This was really good. And YES, Alisa’s book was very powerful and much needed for today’s Christian culture.

[@carolfalls8466]

I feel the same way about Richard Rohr. His heresy needs to be exposed because he is leading many astray.

[@oliviahartland]

Such an important topic that isn't discussed enough. Thank you for talking about this.

[@jaquirox6579]

Great interview! Thank you! ♥️🙏🏽♥️

[@gavinhurlimann2910]

Nice job Alisa and Douglas.

[@marywesley6460]

This podcast is a God send.

[@donnaevans2005]

Appreciate Dr. Groothuis insights and comments. Will be getting his apologetics books!

[@RechurchedTV_10]

Tis has been the discussion with my parents this week. Perfect timing, can't wait to watch.

[@kellyschroeder2210]

Thank you for this discussion about a God who created so much good that has been subjected to evil due to the fall and rebellion. Love the elucidation about lamentation and need to proceed through as part of being a believer. So sorry for your loss 💞😢💔💙🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💙💞 ✝️🙌🏻✝️🙌🏻

[@lourdesrivera8470]

Hola 🙂Alisa & Guest,~Douglas, Great conversation/sharing 👋🏼 We need to learn & hear of such topics (pain/suffering). Especially in a Culture that is so Centered in the gospel of Me~Ology. In the I live just to be Happy/Feliz ONLY goal. Gracias ❣️ Blessings 🕊️

[@User_Happy35]

This was a wonderful podcast.

[@audofit]

I also can say that I only realized the importance of the resurrection and the new heavens/new earth within the past two years. I really thought we just lived on forever in heaven in a spiritual state. I don't know why I didn't understand that growing up. I think for some reason it felt more like a pick a verse, dissect the grammar, and apply it to your life type of culture. Like a lot of focus on the cross which is essential for the atonement for our sins, but not much on the resurrection after that except around Easter. I don't know if it was because we don't really have many sermons on eschatology, but now I have so much more confidence because of the resurrection of Jesus and what that means for believers.

[@marklambert5232]

Wow what a beautiful and powerful exposition of this perennial problem. I think being able to explain this coherently is key to evangelisation, and Doug certainly helped me to understand this from some new perspectives. I would be very interested to hear how he would approach the problem of evil from the point where we look at nature and see its brutality and cruelty: the lion eating the baby gazelle, etc. I have heard the argument that this is a result of the Fall (cf Isaiah 11:6-9), and that before that animals did not behave that way. Has anyone got any more insight into this?

[@lindaprout542]

Wonderful conversation…

[@chardo24]

Douglas is a jolly good fellow. For he's a jolly good fellow. For he's a jolly good fellow! Which nobody can deny. Which nobody can deny.

[@anselman3156]

While it is right to look forward to the bodily resurrection, we should also acknowledge the spiritual resurrection which precedes it, and the blessedness of the soul/spirit in the presence of the Lord in heaven. That is a present victory over death which Jesus has accomplished for us, that, when we die we go to be with Him. What unutterable joy that will be! St Paul spoke of his longing to depart and be with Christ, to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, which is far better than this present life. Too many apologists emphasize the bodily aspect of our future life, to the neglect of the Biblical promise of blessed union with the Lord of our souls apart from the body.

[@biblicalbee2082]

awesome discussion

[@dctrbrass]

I remember reading this guy's stuff in seminary :)

[@camthejock]

I watched Doug own the floor against an atheist professor at a CU Boulder debate in college.

[@tim5718]

Would love to see the video of the debate. Douglas is amazing

[@marosialvarez8918]

I left the AG church I attended for 20 yrs when the book of Peter Scazzaro which aligns with Richard Rohr's writing about the 12 steps of "Emotionally healthy spirituality" became ingrained in the teaching of the pastor and group leaders. This so called 'discipleship' is the core for small group. My heart is heavy to see these deceptive teachings infiltrating the church, however I'm not surprised because God's Word warns his Church to beware of such false teachers. Thank God for those like you and your guest who are sounding the alarm. Let those who have ears hear!

[@KDTif]

Yes. We have a new pastor and unfortunately, he mentioned Scazzaro as an influence. My husband and I are waiting to see how things go. We may have to make the choice to find another church.

[@marosialvarez8918]

@@KDTif I so identify with your concern, and commend you for your discernment. I did an extensive research prior to leaving the church and in obedience to what the Lord convicted me I decided to leave. I first thought about meeting with the lead Pastor but when I realized even the hierarchy of the AG was promoting it I realized it would be a loss cause, also to be honest fear of being labeled divisive and critical prevented me from approaching the leadership with my concerns. To this day (it's been over 2 yrs) no one in leadership has ever contacted to ask me why I left a church I had actively worshiped and served for 20 yrs. I don't hold a grudge against them for not doing so although I do find it disconcerting. The Scazzaro teaching still on going I know this bc I have long lasting friends that still attend the church although thankfully bc they trust my research and input they haven't taken the class. I pray your experience is different and your leadership is more approachable than the one I had, and that if the Lord leads you to speak to them they will take your concerns seriously without patronizing you. In the end church leadership will be accountable to God for the teachings they allow their flock to be exposed to through their ministry.

[@applesauceandoranges]

I have a question about what Doug said regarding where evil began. He said it began after creation and came with human beings. But didn't it exist before man sinned...when the devil fell from grace?

[@malice836]

Excellent interview. As a practicing Catholic I’m so shocked and disappointed by Richard Rohr and his beliefs. The most troubling is he has the gaul to call himself a Catholic. He is a heretic and should be removed from his place in the priesthood in the Catholic Church. Hope he repents before he leaves this world. Lots of damage being done with his influence to Catholics and others Christians.

[@CATHYKNOTT]

Can we say that the things we don't understand on earth could be the mysteries of God that will be revealed to us in heaven?

[@alethiaT]

❤

[@berglen100]

You will know your funny after you wake, getting saved is special blindness about I AM. Flesh and blood is blind for reasons, thinking your better by Christ is not correct about who you are, being Christ will wake not save dust shadows that judge others is what we all experience.

[@1982TAMV]

Hi Alisa, would you consider exploring baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ at some point? I believe it, it meant an invitation from Jesus to join His offerings and sufferings. It was an invitation that I accepted and the growth from accepting and learning to walk through suffering in Christ is incredible! (I absolutely believe in the Trinity, just in case). The topic is pretty much everywhere from the books of acts onwards. The apostles used it after Jesus ascension, where they disobedient?? I could not conclude that to be honest. And I wonder why it is so opposed in Christendom? I don't see baptism as a formula for salvation. I think exploring this would be of great use in the understanding and acceptance of suffering.

[@williamoarlock8634]

Christianity in its entirety gives no real answer to evil. Other than justifying it.

[@Steblu74]

And what ARE Progressives but the Arminians of Atheism? Utopia, mankind's return to Eden depends not upon the work of Christ, but upon them-

[@sbcruiser2]

2 Thessalonians 2: 7-12

[@SalvusGratiumFidem]

I disagree with saying Jesus was not in despair as He was praying on the cross. To remove that is to remove a big chunk of His humanity. There's 2 places that overwhelmingly show His humanity - Gethsemane and the Cross

[@cpg1355]

He was not in despair as the definition of despair is to be without hope & Jesus could never be hopeless. For the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross.

[@SalvusGratiumFidem]

@@cpg1355 He was separated from the Father. That is the worst thing He could have ever experienced. The Father took pleasure in punishing Him for us.

[@briannehill7583]

@@SalvusGratiumFidem i understand what you're saying. Or at least I think so. Maybe the word despair doesn't fit due to the lack of hope maybe not being present. Maybe the word anguish is a better fit? What are your thoughts?

[@SalvusGratiumFidem]

@@briannehill7583 Yes and no. Like I said He knew there was no hope to not die, but He was obedient nonetheless. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26:38‭-‬39 KJV And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44 KJV that sounds like despair to me And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46 KJV The pain of death couldn't have stood up to the pain of being separated from His Father. That's my whole point and He knew He couldn't be reunited with the Father until "it is finished" that's despair to me

[@cpg1355]

After pondering such a deep & wonderfully disturbing subject (wonderful bc of the Resurrection ✝️ ❤🙏) I want to reverse course & say I do agree with you that Jesus was in despair he was in such depths of despair no one can imagine but I believe this is so because he had & suffered every human emotion possible and that includes despair. Despair is possibly the BEST word you could use to describe Gethsemane & esp that when he cried "My God, My God" on the Cross because despair means without hope. It is when someone is completely without hope that they do the unthinkable. (I believe I have felt this kind of hopelessness in my life, in my own capacity) Jesus felt this I think which has got to be the worst psychological torment..the thought of forever being separated from God & forsaken. I'm not saying he could ever be- it isn't possible for Jesus to be eternally separated from the Father, just that he felt that kind of despair on the Cross. BUT God then the resurrection!💓🙏💓 I apologize if any of this is theologically incorrect, I am just sharing & 'reasoning' (Malachi 3:16) with you all.

[@dominiclapinta8537]

Christians have been living in revision of what the Bible says for so long that they sometimes even cant accept the fact that the God of the Bible is not the one who regulates your afflictions, tribulations, etc. But what the God of the Bible shows us is that the reason why we have sin, which has corrupted absolutely everything in this earth, even down to the genetic level, is because Adam listened to the voice of his wife and ate of the tree. The issue of present evil, and sin, and human suffering, is not a God question, but a human one. That being, of why did sin enter into the world? And the answer is simple, that even a child can understand it: People going their own way instead of God's. Its all in the Book, so why dont people read it enough? The reason why that is not good enough for people, is because, we here today, are fallen because of the sin of our father, and we simply dont want the answer to be what it is. We want to blame God instead. But the Scripture is true, which says, "when a man's folly brings his way to ruin, his heart rages against the Lord". But periodically, throughout the Bible, we find a people who go their own way, and God reaching out to them, and some of them come back to God and others just go their own way, over and over and over again. WE are the source of our own problems, sin, and evil, and not God. God gave the earth to mankind to be over it. God never repented of that, which is the second reason why He became a man. Because, now, since He became a Man, and He had placed mankind over the works of His hands, now God can come back and be in absolute control. the true sovereignty of God will be manifest and all will see it. Until then, this view of God controlling everything, even evil, in the here and now, is just supposition, But when Jesus returns, He will rule with a rod of iron. The big reason why people, as a whole, want it to be that God is sovereignly controlling everything and managing evil, is because, they dont want to see that THEY are the problem and they instead want to feel like they are enough and that they arent truly unrighteous. They want to be portrayed to themselves as being righteous. They dont want to accept the fact that it is our own depravity that has caused the world into what it is today. Sadly, the Bible revision that we have been living in all the way up to today, is a revision that makes God the one that sovereignly decrees everything to be what it is and the way it is and how it is, before the world began. This is not the original intent of the Bible, nor the God of the Bible. it feels good, but there is a way that seems right unto man, but the end thereof is destruction. And if it really is that evil is allowed by God, it is bacause mankind allowed it originally into this earth. whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

[@robertdouglas8895]

Jesus said that God, the Father is not on earth but in heaven. So we think we see evil but we are looking upon the world that the prodigal son thinks he sees but is not God's creation. We can see life as God sees it, but it's not in temporary figures that do things. It takes different eyes. It takes being reborn as spirit, not as bodies. "Judge not by appearance but judge by righteous judgment." It takes forgiveness to see innocence instead of evil and guilt. Matthew 12.7 If you had known what these words mean, “I desire mercy, not sacrifice,” you would not have condemned the innocent. That brings us to the kingdom of heaven within us. It wasn't the sacrifice on the cross that brought Jesus out of the thought that he was separate from God and forsaken. It was forgiveness. "Forgive them for they know not what they do." When we forgive, we know we are forgiven. Guilt takes us away from our true state of pure creation. Forgiveness brings us back.

[@leahannewoods6170]

Richard Roar’s philosophy is Paganism without the pagan rituals. To believe that we’ve never been separated from God is to believe that sin doesn’t separate us which means he doesn’t believe that we have sin that could separate us from God. This also implies that he doesn’t understand the holiness of God. This is evident that he believes this because he believes that everything is God, and that we are all God, and that the universe is an extension of God. The universe is not an extension of God. God created the universe. Just as us, the universe is not God. We do not know the mind of God. And thank the Lord for that so that we have a creator who knows us better than we could know ourselves because he created us. Therefore only he can save us. So, essentially Richard Roar does not believe in salvation by God.

[@RainbowMan.]

😯

[@dlwilson5766]

We need to accept that the Bible does not offer a complete answer to the problem of evil. To atheists out there... I totally understand your lack of satisfaction with the Christian response. It is far from adequate. God presides over everything, not one thing is beyond the scope of His authority. So, the horrendous suffering endured in the animal kingdom and the human experience is allowed by Him. Christians should accept that the same God who willingly gave up his Son to save us, CHOOSES to let immense suffering continue. God has set a time limit on it: a new universe will be made where there are no more tears, no pain. But let's not be suprised when people caught in the torments of this broken waiting room wonder how God can be considered caring and loving. They are being perfectly logical. We christians have nothing to offer, to answer the challenge of why evil has been built into this present cosmos. Yes, God could have done it differently. People who present that point are absolutely right. Christians may try to justify the repugnant evils of the world with ideas of it being 'worth it in the end', but to many that will seem a very hollow explanation. I get it. The Bible tells us that through Christ God actually has done it differently, and we await the culmination of that, which includes the purging of evil and suffering. In the meantime, christians need to be like Job: humble before our Creator, trusting Him no matter what, accepting His right to order things as He sees fit. And seek to relieve suffering and resist evil in the power of His Holy Spirit.

[@markwaggener5380]

Christianity LOVES Stockholm Syndrome so much. 'The beatings will continue until morale improves.' 'God welcomes His victims.' 'Honor your father and mother,' no matter how abusive, neglectful, incompetent, inept, impotent, inattentive, hypocritical, double-standard or impossible to please that they are, etc, etc.

[@reality1958]

It is a problem for Christianity that a god would choose to design suffering. It is an insurmountable problem.

[@tbirdlewis53]

Have you read any of the Bible? God didn’t design suffering

[@reality1958]

@@tbirdlewis53 yes cover to cover. According to the narratives of the bible, god designed massive suffering. Disease, natural disasters, parasites, poisonous plants and animals, predators, etc.

[@reality1958]

@Christian one has to be in denial and set aside the logic and evidence for it not to be a problem. A god who designs suffering is a malevolent god

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@tbirdlewis53 Is Yahweh/Jesus an OMNISCIENT god ??

[@reubenmartin1930]

If the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, what frame of reference would we have to understand his righteousness if there was no evil? If there were no sin, how would mankind understand how radical love is if it was seen as nothing more than a simple reciprocal exchange where no personal sacrifice is required? If there were no such thing as slavery, how would mankind have any category for the concept of being enslaved to a sinful nature. I could go on, but I would hope you get the point: How would God put his attributes on display to be praised for their worthiness if there is no context to provide contrast? _What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. Romans 9:22-23_

[@rbebut1]

Let's make a correction here. Lucifer was a murderer from the beginning. It is when he decided that he wanted to be like the Most High is when things started to change. It was in Lucifer's thought on how can he turn man away from God. And that was through the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. Then the fall.

[@sylviaa5785]

Its likely he was a "murderer " from the early "beginnings" of life on earth and not necessarily from the beginning of his own existence. Who would he have murdered before humans?! His murderous ways would have begun on earth after being kicked out of heaven for wanting to dethrone God..... Just my thoughts

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

The problem is not evil but goodness. Goodness should include not causing unnecessary suffering to souls. God creates souls knowing they will never accept him, and then when they don't accept him, he condemns them to eternal torture. God does nothing unnecessary. God does not cause unnecessary suffering. God would never use souls as a tool to save other souls. So God creates some souls for the sole purpose of suffering for all eternity. Either the Christian god does not act as Christians suppose or God is not good.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

An OMNISCIENT Yahweh/Jesus would know what would happen in his creation project. Evil is present in the world. Yahweh/Jesus is responsible for creating this evil. As simple as that. LOL

[@vinnyrac]

So by poking holes in your "progressive" strawman you naively think you've proven your Batman v Joker model for the problem of suffering? Congratulations! Did they actually give you a PhD for that?

[@angietorok8389]

We all know that people like you show up on these channels because you HATE our theology. Whereas if there was nothing at all compelling about it, you'd be indifferent to it and just leave us to our "silly notions." You should ask yourself what it is about the topic of Jesus that gets under your skin?

[@darrenplies9034]

❤