The "Problem" With Counter-Swapping

[@charlestonjew7587]

It's arguable that 5v5 stresses counterpicking far more than 6v6 did. Everyone complained about double shield meta but it really boiled down to Bridgitte and Orissa, which could've easily been fixed if Blizzard hadn't abandoned Overwatch 1 at that point to work on Overwatch 2. They already reduced shield strength and removed Orissa's altogether. Personally, I think adding more shield heroe's, period, was poor design choice. Rein was unique early in Overwatch's life because he was the only hero/tank(Winston's shield dome being much weaker and immobile) with a shield wall until they introduced Orissa, Bridgitte and Sigma. More mobile but squishy tanks were design to be soft-tanks or off-tanks. We already had role locks by the end of Overwatch 1's life but now with one less hero, picking one that is practically more viable under the reduced team comp than another hero becomes more paramount.

[@lukenerdy]

I forget how much of a problem Sigma was at the end of ow 1 but yeah some great points here.

[@xythiera7255]

​@@lukenerdySigma only become a problem becouse of Baptiest with his insane Area healing compleatly destroying any way of dealing with it . Most bad metas came down to broken support desgine other then Shild tanks

[@Reddarksun]

i dont think they abandoned ow1 because of gameplay, they abandoned ow1 for maximizing monetary gain

[@thiefpotato2759]

Nah, it was way more Baptiste and Sigmas fault. Orisa and Brig were both problems, but you couldn't hurt sigma or his team due to him having a shield and a dm that gave him temp hp. It just made it worse with Orisa's shield and fortify. Then you have immortality field and aoe healing being insane.

[@anthonyanderson9771]

(Ptsd from Orissa bunker comps)

[@RAntonio93]

In Overwatch 1 there were some hard counters like zen vs sombra, but generally there was 1 meta each season that everyone played which was a pool of 7-8 heros. in ow2 the meta literally is counter swapping. It’s not fun because it removes your agency from hero picks and forces you to play based around what the enemy team picks. It’s not nearly as fun as an experience. Not only this but if your team is getting hard countered and refuses to swap, unless you are multiple skill ranks below your real skill, you are not going to win the game and it is extremely frustrating because you have no agency in that particular game

[@BlazeroToSixty]

I don't know if I understand to your statement 100% but it seems like ow2 is better because you have the option to switch and counter them but in OW1, you have to play one of the select heros and if you don't you lose.

[@RAntonio93]

@@BlazeroToSixty In OW1 each season was who could play the meta better. In Ow2 it's how many times can you swap in a match to counter the enemy. If you enjoy doing that you will like Ow2 more. But if you want more strategy Ow1 was a far superior game.

[@charlestonjew7587]

@@RAntonio93 OW1 allowed you to play who and the way you wanted. Sure, you sometimes had to flex if the hero you were using wasn't working but there were no hard counters that required you to chose 'hero X' to deal with 'hero Y'. OW2 is either play the way you want and lose or swap to a specific hero(s) to deal with a specific hero. OW2 is not for people who want to have fun. It's for sweats and streamers.

[@HighlyRegardted]

@@RAntonio93it’s so funny to hear people saying this over and over again… In two years I only switched between Sig and Rammatra … that’s the only countering I’ve ever done and I still enjoy the game … maybe people who counter swap 5 times a game are just bad? Have you considered that …😅

[@HighlyRegardted]

@@charlestonjew7587option 3. … play the way you want and win … option 4. rage quit and goon intensely

[@PerpetuusTenebris]

Counter swapping, as stated by the devs, is a massive part of what Overwatch is, and what makes it unique, but should not be integral to the game or required in any scenario.

[@Casual314]

I agree, I think being able to switch heroes on the fly is what makes Overwatch unique, but at the same time shouldn't be so important that you feel like you have to do it just to play the game.

[@targaryen2733]

Fr they should nerf Genji

[@PaulMCH]

Genji is hard though, as his brother (hanzo main) I cannot play him 😂

[@thePontiacBandit]

Reduce dash speed by 16% and reduce dash damage to 25.

[@asdfg3046]

Remove his secondary fire

[@firesayer23grumpybuns75]

@@thePontiacBandit dash dmg to 25? doesn't a typical melee do 30?

[@EasyEntertaiment--]

nah they should keep him the same

[@juda5134]

I go ball. They go Hog,sombra, tracer,brig,

[@MCS_Sunset]

That's your fault for having the audacity to play a character in a video game

[@whateverusername]

Countering in OW1 was a great mechanic that rewarded you for reading the enemy's comp, switching to a hero that could deal with it better, and (crucially) knowing how to play the hero you're swapping to. Overwatch 2 counters are not like this at all. For the vast majority of heroes that people swap to for counters now you need basically zero skill to execute them. Ball player on the enemy team? Stay invisible near your team the whole game and hack him on cooldown, since he has no chance to interrupt you now that hacking and decloaking are way faster in OW2. Rein player on the enemy team? Go Bastion and focus fire his shield the whole game, he can't LOS you anymore because you can just chase him down now. Tracer giving you problems? Switch to Cassidy and throw your nade the moment you see her, you don't even need to worry about predicting her movement since it'll just chase her down for you anyways! You get the idea. Countering has gotten a little bit better in 5v5 since it's easier to isolate a single target now, but also countering has just gotten significantly easier to execute. In overwatch 1, if there was a Widow on the enemy team you had to either outsnipe her or go flank her, dealing with two tanks looking for you along the way. Usually you'd pick Genji, Tracer, or Widow, three heroes which are pretty difficult to play for someone who doesn't main them. Now you can just pick Sombra, go invis, run past her whole team, show up behind her and instakill her as long as she doesn't immediately get healed. Ana is one of the best counterswaps against tanks now because there's only one tank and so if they have a Roadhog or Mauga you can just nade them on cooldown with no risk of dying because of the new support passive. The overall trend which most people are noticing now is that counterswapping is unbelievably easy and requires so little skill that one player can counterswap another one and win regardless of the skill level disparity. The problem was never counterswapping; the problem is you can do it while being a significantly worse player than your enemy and still win

[@Casual314]

I think the problem you're describing has to do with simply how Overwatch 2 has a lot more hard-countering as opposed to soft-countering, and I would have to agree that it's not the existence of counters that is problematic, but the degree to how strong it is. In the current state of the game, tanks especially are just strangely vulnerable to so many things like Mei Wall, Bastion Turret, Anti-Nade etc. I think these abilities can be problematic for certain tanks because there's little room for interesting counter-play. The only real counter-play against these abilities is to simply play less aggressively which isn't going to a fun experience for the person being countered.

[@nintendoyoshi6778]

All of the interactions you described (bastion shredding rein shield, sombra countering widow) were all in ow1 this is how you played against these heroes of course it would be the same in ow2. Cassidy’s mag grenade is no more of a counter than flash bang especially when it comes to tracer you always had to be aware of Cass when you flanked because you would be stunned and the cass would have to hit a shot or 2 on tracer’s small hit box, now instead of a hard stun you get slowed and no movement abilities, there’s still the same skill shot the cass has to hit at least one shot on the tracer that can still move a bit. I will give you ana’s nade against tanks is brutal and needs to be adjusted, I think the amount of shields in ow1 allowed anti to not seem as bad because even if you were hit (which didn’t happen as often) you had barriers to ride out the time on it so when tanks have less abilities to block nade you can on cooldown nade them and not be punished and get extreme value from it. The counter picks have always existed in the game and the interactions they create have stayed similar or are the exact same from ow1 to 2, but a couple could use some tweaks to make them less harsh but the game now is very balanced and you can still use any hero against another. We have to keep in mind though that every game there are good and bad matchups for every hero and while rein’s abilities are good at blocking what zarya wants to do, in a lot of games the zarya can still win out in that matchup, and not because the healers or dps carry but because they were a better tank or could bait out the rein abilities properly

[@markbo3251]

@@nintendoyoshi6778What there trying to say is that while these counters existed already, there much stronger now in OW2. Sombra now has far better burst than she did in OW1, cree nade has less counterplay than flash did, and while bastion always shreded rein shield, he was forced to stand still while doing so - giving rein more ways to play around it.

[@nintendoyoshi6778]

@@markbo3251 I understand what they were saying what I said was that the counters are similar and only slightly changed. If anything they have more counter play now. Bastion being able to move and cass nade allowing you to still shoot and walk does not change how the interactions played out. Rein with his shield still is too slow that a stationary and mobile bastion doesn’t change his shield being shredded (if anything bastion turret on a long cooldown gives rein more chances to deal with bastion), widow still got burst down by sombra in ow 1 with no time to react (because widow is weak at close range, the whole point of her archetype of sniping), cass still needs to actually hit the tracer after the stun. People want to complain about counter swapping because it requires a deeper understanding of the game and how every hero works and not just understanding how to play the “broken” hero of the week in a mediocre way

[@shawngorski9714]

As someone who has literally never really touched ranked in overwatch despite playing on and off from around the time sombra was added, I can tell you the games always had this bad of counterswapping, just you're probably a higher ranked player and ow1 had more team oriented play which allowed for you to counter other teams through team strategy rather than a bastion just swapping out last second to mow down your entire team everytime you almost win 😂 In ow1 trying to play anything but stuff like junkrat, bastions moira brig and that kinda more brain dead stuff has always been bad and weve always had to counter it, like I play ow because i have adhd and love heros like tracer and genji but brig has always shut me down so hard that i just cant really play him, or bastion I would always go junkrat to beat him unless the bastion was stupid and shot my deflect but that only works so many times even kn the dumbest of bastion players 😂 so I always went junkrat for bastion and I went sym for brig because the tp and turrets are great for dancing around a brig when I could get in their backline, so to the casual player counterswapping has always existed I think.

[@dueler8281]

I one tricked hitscan and genji on separate accounts and reached gm with both and my experience on genji doing this took significantly longer due to the sheer amount of swaps from the enemy team in order to mitigate the value I was getting on him. Just because Genji is more susceptible to being countered than a hitscan is. Skill does not matter at this point and that’s where counter swapping becomes an issue.

[@tincano-beans2114]

almost like, in a game about team comp swapping, one trick gets one kicked (in the butt)

[@Ktsjay187]

@@tincano-beans2114 I'd rather outplay someone than beat them using cheap tricks. Thats the problem with OW2, less skill, more hand holding

[@gracefulcharity8412]

I agree with alot of what you said. You're unable to learn how to deal with the counter if you're just going to swap immediately. You'll also find more ways to utilize your hero, after having to deal with the counters more to.

[@josewolf9884]

My biggest problem with counterswaping is pretty much how much value you can get from heroes that require little skill vs heroes that demand much more from the players, specially if two or more players decide to counterswap against you. If I'm playing junkrat and my enemy decides to counterswap with widow at least I know that in order for that widow to actively counter me she has to be able to shoot me, whereas a winston vs Bastion + Reaper or a Doom/Ball vs Sombra + Ana is pretty much beyond a challenge. And I don't mean that just because you have the skill to play a Mechanically intensive hero you automatically deserve to always win, but rather that said counter should manifest as a harsher punish for your mistakes, not a "you will die in less than a second if I dare to press this button". Maybe I'm exaggerating but that's how it feels as a Tank Main after winning the first teamfight and seeing half of the enemy team swap.

[@gladiolus3181]

I agree a lot with what you said. I think another thing to note is that hero picks don’t exist in a vacuum. I played a game the other day where the tank went rein to counter me (Zarya) and the entire team just fell apart because the rest of the team wasn’t made for rush. He’d rush in out of his supports los and die repeatedly, and when one swapped to mercy, he just dragged her to her death over and over.

[@ThySupremeFriend]

Tbf that falls on the Mercy for making that terrible switch

[@Casual314]

I one-trick Zarya on tank, and I do see a lot of Rein swaps to counter me, but I actually don't think the matchup is as one-sided as a lot of players think. In fact I think Zarya slowly counters Rein the more charge she has, the difficult part is knowing how to get charge safely when facing a Rein which can be tricky.

[@gladiolus3181]

@@Casual314 I definitely agree. I’m a Zarya one trick too (because of you actually) and there’s definitely ways to play around. When she has full charge his shield pops pretty fast, and if you can bait the rein into chasing you or charging into a bad spot he’s pretty easy to kill

[@jackwhite8238]

@@Casual314if I’m running rein against a Zarya I’m playng defensive and protecting my team allowing them to deal the damage

[@Sizzyl]

@@Casual314 I one trick rein and I'd say the matchup is about 55-45 in rein's favor. It's his only favorable matchup other than junkerqueen (who's about 80-20 imo). Every other hero tends to be around 50-50 or worse.

[@etherigni]

I never play ranked and I don't really care about conter-swapping in this game as I have come to terms with being a dirty Kiriko main, but wholly hell I love the quality of your argument here! You take your time to actually analyses and define the points of contention, especially taking into account the descriptivist nature of English (It's shocking how few people even know this is a thing. I've seen maybe three people mention it when debating semantics) and the functionality of the words. You look at the counter arguments and deconstruct them by pointing out exactly where they come from and why. You reduced the argument to the actual issue at hand, the nature of what overwatch should be. There was a discussion about the shortcomings of theoretical arguments, but also how they actually allow you to look at the underlying principles without the realistic noise to inform later conclusions. This, in particular, is always something I see people failing to understand so they just disregard theoretical effects entirely. You gave your opinion on the matter, gave voice to other viewpoints and why people make alternate arguments while analyzing how the clickbait title isn't their actual argument, and even avoided the trap of just describing the problem and gave the people watching options for what they could do about it. This video might just be about a videogame (That's not to undersell the importance of videogames mind you, it's just not the sphere you expect to find something like this), but it is easily one of the most well put together arguments I've seen in years!

[@TheKillerman3333]

Reinhart. Has a fixed amount of ranged DPS that can't be overcome without team members like Mercy, Baptist, or grandma. His fire strike has a fixed reload time and less damage then his primary damage or charge damage. Holding his shield will allow him to sponge more damage, but also slow down his walking speed. If you have more DPS then his fire strike, at range, then you have effectively countered the usability of rien. He can charge but that doesn't guarantee a pin kill if at all. The charge pin is avoidable as much as his fire strike, both of which are heavily choreographed. If swapping gives you more advantage, it is blatantly shown with rien based on ranged fights. However, Rien has even more issues then just ranged combat. If you charge, you have exhausted your extremely limited mobility options. Once you go in, you are now even easier to hit. Another weakness of rien comes in two forms. Shield melters, and shield ignores. Just like Reinhart's hammer, Bridgette and others have attacks that ignore his shield, effectively making 2/3s of his health get ignored. Some attacks do excess damage destroying his shield quickly. Recently there has been a patch to Winston putting him on the list of "armor ignores" where armor damage reduction is a thing. Now you have Mauga who can heal himself. Any hero that can heal at a speed to which they put health Rien has a clear advantage. Orisa is a popular choice against Rien to stop his strongest attack, the charge pin. If you are keeping track, based on everything I have mentioned so far, it means that 90% of the roster has a way to either ignore his abilities, out DPS him at range, make his damage not matter by out healing his damage, or counters his abilities. You also have Sombra who can break his everything. One hack can do 1400 damage. How this works is, his shield insta breaks if he gets hacked, and must restart from zero. If he is mid charge and gets hacked, his charge just ends. There are not fire strikes when it comes to being hacked so based on his fixed damage, it is possible for a Sombra to put dps him despite Rien having a numerical health advantage. Can rien win in these matchups? Yes. Is there a clear numerical dps advantage that a player has if they switch to a character against Rien? Yes Does switching to have a clear advantage count as counter swapping? Debatable. I honestly believe that Rien is fun to play with, but that he is also the weakest possible hero in the game and has been since the game's inception. Many heroes historically have had a time in the light where "oops, I am overpowered" except Rien. In the Rien community on Reddit for example, they can point at a time when he was strong but not when he was overpowered. Every other hero can show when they were seen as overpowered.

[@LukeMason]

I definitely lean towards team Awkward. Playing into your "counters" is way more beneficial than most players think. It allows you to gain a lot more skill on your main hero. If you always swap off Doom when the enemy goes Hog, it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course you lose all your games against Hogs. You NEVER practice against Hog! If you were willing to play through a few difficult matches against Hog, you might find he's not that bad to play around. And guess what? Now you'll have an advantage whenever an enemy tank swaps to Hog to "counter" you. They are not skilled on Hog. They're just using him to counter. By robbing the enemy of the slight advantage gained by their counterpick, you now put them in a bad position where they're playing a hero they don't understand and your team can take advantage of that. Sometimes just playing decent on your main is enough to tip the scales against the enemy tank who is playing poorly on a counterpick hero. Sure, there are times when one hero is better in theory against another hero. But the extent to which that matters is vastly overstated. Personally, I think individual heroes just being poorly balanced is a way bigger issue. If too strong or binary, they create problems for the entire game (Ana, Kiriko, Mercy, S1 Sombra, old Zen). If too weak or dependent, they just feel bad to play (Old Lifeweaver, Doom, Ball, pre-rework-Sombra). People playing against the strong characters might say "counters are so annoying!" when the problem is not specific "counters" but general game design. People playing the weak heroes might say "ugh, my hero is so easily countered" when the problem is actually their hero's poor design.

[@Sizzyl]

The issue becomes when an entire team commits to the counterpick and your team doesn't capitalize on that fact and just blame you instead. I will 100% agree on most of what you're saying though, one-tricking is the EASIEST way to get really good at this game as fast as possible.

[@jingping5948]

I think counters are bound to happen. Nothing will ever make Kiriko not counter Ana, or Orsia not counter Rein due to their abilities nature. Sure the devs can make some counters less one-sided, for example making Orisa's ult blockable by shields, but overall they're going to exist to some degree. That said, I don't think counters are strictly bad as they add complexity to the game and require people to not just default to the same playstyle all the time. Ana and Widowmaker come to mind as an example, Ana has to play cover more and not expose herself to the long sightlines she would normally take. The issues arise when a counter becomes to one-sided, Pharamercy and projectiles for example. If you're running Sym Mei then playing against Pharamercy is a nightmare. You have to coordinate with your team to make it hard for her to get value but I don't have to tell you how impossible that is in comp. To summarize, I think counters are inevitable and even a good thing when kept in check but can become a big issue when left to run wild. As for swapping I think its fine, it makes the game less frustrating imo while also allowing you to avoid playing into the worst matchups for a particular character.

[@frozenfury0]

Map design is a huge part of this as well, if its an open field and its widowmaker vs reaper obviously widowmaker wins just like if it takes a couple seconds for Reinhardt to get to high ground vs dva who just flies up immediately.

[@jingping5948]

@@frozenfury0 ​ @frozenfury0 Absolutely, Widow really isn't too good right now but on Circuit Royale she stomps the lobby. Conversely she is only a mild annoyance on a map like King's Row. This brings up an interesting point that maps can make some counters much worse while others are almost unaffected.

[@Casual314]

Yeah it's definitely pointless to hope for a game with no bad matchups at all. I think Blizzard actually does a good job of mostly avoiding absolutely terrible matchups, but the spots where they get it wrong are quite noticeable.

[@SuperScopeRawks]

The game needs a second tank.

[@BOOMbear214]

I always love how well spoken and intellectual your videos are. It always makes me laugh how different it is compared to what I view in my head as the average overwatch player.

[@Casual314]

Haha thanks, I'm really glad you enjoy the content

[@HighlyRegardted]

@@Casual314I think you need to switch up your tone… you sound like you are doing extra credit homework / presenting a book report … like it’s a game dude… supposed to be fun… idk I appreciate the analytic take but like… your tone man… you sound like squidward at work for too long … don’t you enjoy this game? Try injecting some enthusiasm or emotion… even sarcasm or something literally anything in one video and see what the reactions from your viewers are like…

[@h.e.x.]

​@@HighlyRegardted It's just called being mature and analytical. You want someone to talk about the serious issues of a nearly decade-old franchise while they have a Jake Paul intro tone in their voice? Come on now.

[@Dmanbradley]

I got to the point where I dropped the game because of counter-swaps. In Overwatch 1, I had fun playing Winston and D.Va on tank to take advantage of the short queue times. In OW2, I ended up moving to Wrecking Ball because he *was* that tank that had only one counter (Sombra) and had an okay match-up against everything else. Then they nerfed him to be just a bad tank in general. Sigma was probably the other generalist option, but his skillset is completely different that what I had experience with. In one of my last games, a teammate politely brought up that Ball wasn't working, and I said something to the effect "If I swap to any other tank, they'll just swap Reaper or Bastion anyway." It happened in basically every game I ever played as tank. They harass me all day on Reaper if I played Winston, or swap to Mei if I played Rein or D.Va, or focus me down with Bastion to make me play passive on all of the above. After that, I started questioning why I was playing the game when it just made me feel defeated and depressed as easy swaps cancelled out near-a-decade of experience in the game. When they announced PvE was cancelled and Wrecking Ball was nerfed, I just stopped playing and I've been playing Steam/Game Pass/Switch games in my free time ever since. Plus, I've been having more fun to boot. It may not be a problem, theoritically, when it comes to winning, but players being able to swap to easier picks that turn you from dominating the lobby to hugging corners like a horror game isn't fun for me. OW2 doesn't bring enough to the table to make suffering through that counter-pick-a-thon worth it.

[@ketchubb]

That last sentence hits hard.

[@lot8113]

THANK YOU for not relying on the dictionary definition but instead deciding to take a descriptive approach to semantics. Btw, as a former ow1 player I def feel like counterswapping is more relevant in ow2 than it was for most of ow1. Never been particularly good tho, so I dont really know.

[@Xaminn]

You sound so educated. Thank you for your response.

[@Casual314]

I've heard other OW1 players talk about the nature 6v6 making it less appealing to counter because you get less value from just targeting one player on the enemy team. Intuitively, with 6 enemy players, there are more opportunities to make plays while avoiding your counters.

[@lot8113]

@@Casual314 yeah, it's also true that in ow1 (at least imo) you had pretty rigid comps thay were very often used. My fun was learning to force off-meta picks into these comps, with the knowledge that, depending on what characters they chose, the most important thing for me was understanding what general style was going to get played and adjusting my own playstyle in consequence. Now its more about the individual interactions and it feels to me like my best way of coming out on top is just switching to a hero that does better in those 1v1's.

[@thiefpotato2759]

Most of the counterswapping in OW1 was things not being meta due to a character being their counter or an entire playstyle countering them. I.e. Cassidy was never viable during dive. The problem with Blizz is they never account for that, which is why we see stuff like a Kiriko buff when she was only bad due to poke meta and not because shes bad herself.

[@ElmoRitter]

You’re too reasonable to be a gamer. I don’t think you said “copium” a single time.

[@ShinsukeMoriya]

bro took 7min+ to explain the word counter.

[@Sizzyl]

Going from 2 tanks to 1 just made counterpicking a free win if your team isn't braindead. I've had entire teams of people in very low elos counterpick and focus me on rein (with some braindead bastion+orisa+zen comps) and unless my team does the same to their comp (as in counterpicks those heros, which almost NEVER happens regardless of elo) it's just a guaranteed win since most of the time I just want to play rein. On ANY other role other than very specific heros who's unique traits make them more specifically vulnerable (such as pharah or lucio specifically), I have had 0 issues with counterpicks. I have had a blast and win many games on junkrat vs. pharah+echo+zar despite the large disadvantage I'm being put at. The counterpicking issue is unique to the tank's role because of how much rides on the presence of that role in every fight. This trait definitely hits one-tricks such as myself harder than most other people, but it's annoying even for all the tanks I know who do LOVE to swap heros. Having harder matchups with counterpicks on other roles is honestly is just fun more than anything. It's a small extra challenge, but not something you LITERALLY can't fight against (which is how it feels to play against 5 hard-counters on specific tanks) and I think it's fine to be a part of the game.

[@ZeroKami86]

Counter-swapping is a crutch, if you want to truly improve on a hero - you won't swap *(or heavily limit your swapping pool)*. You will learn how to play against what counters you. On another note, I do miss tank synergies, and due to the nature of having only 1 tank makes the crutch of counter-swapping in that role that much stronger. Power-creep is a large topic right now, both in terms of burst damage and burst healing. Adding the 2nd tank back could help alleviate this a bit, because it would be 1 more large body to soak up damage and consume healing resources. With Sigma's barrier nerf this season, and the complete removal of Orisa's barrier, alongside the overall power-creep I don't believe a double barrier meta could be as viable as it was in OW1 if a 2nd tank were reintroduced. And even if it could become meta again it definitely won't be as bad, nor as long as OW1, due to OW2 receiving patches at a higher frequency.

[@ketchubb]

You had me in the first half haha. 6v6 was a mistake and I am so glad it's over.

[@ZeroKami86]

That's fair, I mostly just miss the synergies between tanks@@ketchubb

[@ramonsmith3706]

Blizzard doesn't care if the game is balanced, all they care about is if new players buy the battle pass where the new heroes are op so everyone has to buy it. Blizzard doesn't care about matchmaking, because most of the player base plays quick play, so quick matchmaking is important and balance dosent matter. This is why ultimately overwatch e sports was doomed to fail and couldn't compete with other games, because its not competitive. Think about it with most games its statistically even and all comes down to your own skill and the only variable is your teammates, and even in some games like sports games and rocket League solo, and dota, its completely all down to your skill. If you lose you have no one else to blame. And say if there is 1 or two teammates theoretically if you are better than your rank you should be able to carry. But with overwatch its both of those things, plus uneven matchmake, and if you like playing a hero thats weak well prepare to play even more matches to improve your skill than everyone else. With all of these variables it makes winning even less out of control than your own skill. You could be the most skilled player in the match and still cant win. How is that even a competitive environment. 2 people playing chess but the person who is better loses just because of RNG. Thats not skill, thats luck. Yes you can increase your chances of winning by playing and often and trying to improve your skill. But ultimately there is that chance that you will just lose. Not because of a smurf, or a thrower, but simply because the odds were stacked against you. Im not saying the game isnt competitive, yes i am in diamond/plat because i am of the same wins and loss as other players. But ive put in 500 hours over the course of a few years. But if i just play kirko i have a better chance of winning. Thats not fun, i dont want the game to tell me what hero to play, i want to choose that myself. And if i cant do that thats not fun, and if im not having fun, then i wont play at all.

[@ruohos]

As someone who did play ow1 a bunch since 2017, counter swapping is even more of a problem in ow2 than it ever was in 1 imo..

[@shawngorski9714]

We dont even need the devs to tell us what their vision is. We can look at what the appeal of a hero shooter is, and the appeal is the heros, its that you can cone into this game find a hero you enjoy and play that hero, and if thats what the appeal is than doesnt counterswapping naturally go against that? Its almost so counterintuitive to it that its crazy it exists, and if were talking about a purley casual players experience than you should wanna remove counterswapping, but if you wanna appeal to the try hard rank grinders who fell in love with the game for counterswapping than keep it, but those same pros cant than turn around and conplain that overwatch is dying, because overwatch has the single most potential on the market of any shooter but tha potential is squashed by counterpicking for a large portion of players, if not half the community, and some may be shocked to hear that but you have to remember, who consumes content on KZbin and twitter for overwatch? Its the pro players that can climb the ladder and who climbs the ladder? The players that understand counterswapping super well and can play more heros, yes you can 1 trick and its probably the fastest way for immediate long term success but as you pointed out it hits a wall too and at that wall, you now need to learn all the other heros anyway so logically the ones interacting online in overwatch spaces are often the ones that are more bias towards countering and the majority of casuals are the ones that play for abit until they get sick of facing moira and sombra every game as genji because by the end of any match they start doiny good in they get countered hard and lose interest in overwatch until they get that itch to play a unique character again like genji, echo, ball, doom, sym or whatever unique ow hero tou identify with as modt casuals are gonna gravitate towards the more unique heros until they realise they cant play them and swap. So we should ask, is keeping counterswapping worth overwatch never getting to grow?

[@In_Purple_Clad]

Love how reasonable you are. Your tone, how clear and concise you are. Keep it up. We need more voices like yours. You've earned a sub. A thing I wanna say about Counter-picking... I love it! For the same reason I love old-school RTS games like Command and Conquer. "Huh. My opponent's chosen to rush early and go really heavy into tanks and armour for an highly mobile push? That's cool, I'll just add more anti-tank units to my build order. Meanwhile I know that because he chose to spam tank factories early, that means he won't have much in the way of anti-infantry defences built up. So knowing that, I'll just send some commandos and para-troopers round his backline and start wailing on his economy/ taking out his support units." Replace 'tanks and armour' with 'Reinhardt and Sigma going double shield on the 1st part of any payload map and holding up the entire match for the 1st 2 minutes 'cos my team-mates just aren't skilled enough to co-ordinate and take them out', and you'll see why I love using my game knowledge to go "cool, I'mma just gonna swap to Bastion then and make Minigun go brrrrrt." "That'll punish you for wilfully choosing to play a highly skewed and obnoxious combo V low skilled players." Now obviously that exact scenario can't happen anymore 'cos there's only one tank in OW2... but you can still do similar things with Rein and Brigitte, and there are loads of other combos/ skew comps still available in OW2. I use an example from OW1 because it was more extreme back then... but I genuinely wonder what would happen if hero swapping was removed out right from OW2. "Oh the enemy team chose a team comp that just objectively hard counters our team-comp? And we can't swap heroes mid-game so we're stuck with this build that'll take extreme skill-difference to beat? And I can't use my game knowledge to force them to take a more balanced build?" To clarify; I agree with your video when you talk about one-V-one match ups and not just counter picking because one guy keeps messing you up in one-on-one duels. You are right, you should stick with learning more about your main, you should learn how to counter the specific individual heroes that counter your specific hero'. You're correct about the one-on-one level... I'm just worried about the macro level/ team comp level. Because Overwatch is a fusion of Mobas and FPS. And Mobas are descended from RTS games. I Love Overwatch because I get to zoom the camera down from the RTS 'birds eye', top down view, and actually play as Sombra/ actually 'be' the commando unit I used to make and send into my opponent's backlines during my Command & Conquer days. That's the core fantasy for me and my friend group, and we love playing OW because we've all gotten really good at co-ordinating with each other to adapting our team-comp on the fly. Basically I'm worried about players forgetting about OverWatch's RTS heritage, and fixating solely on the FPS part. I may be wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as 'oh just remove hero swapping from the game outright. gg, ez, done'. Maybe Limited swaps and/or hero bans are the answer? That way it becomes strategic element/ a limited resource you have to think carefully about? We need something to stop players abusing skew comps. y'all remember G.O.A.T.S ? 😝

[@Casual314]

Leaning into the nature of swapping, could definitely be an alternative, albeit less popular, game design option. But I think the problem is that unlike a game like perhaps command and conquer, the knowledge of counter-swaps isn't exactly very deep, which means it's not particular interesting or fun either. In my opinion, I would prefer the evening out of hero balance because I don't see very many ways to make swapping an interesting form of skill expression. I would say that MOBAs have even harder counters compared to Overwatch, but it's not as much of a problem because there are plenty of strategic ways to win without necessarily directly interacting with your counter. Whereas in Overwatch, there isn't really a way to 100% avoid your counter, especially if they decide to target you specifically, which can lead to some pretty lame feeling gameplay.

[@In_Purple_Clad]

@@Casual314 cheers for the in-depth response, much appreciated 🙂 You're right about swapping being less deep and less popular in OW. My friends and I love that aspect but I'm aware we're in the minority. ... ... ... I guess the real question is, 'why does counter picking exist, what problem is it trying to solve, and is there another way fo solve that problem? As previously mentioned, I think counter picking is there to prevent skew comps from dominating and being abused. I also think it's there to allow junkrat players to swap out when the enemy just happens to roll onto the 1st point with a Phar-Mercy comp that literally hard counters you/ makes the game impossible without god-tier aim. That's not the only example of course, there are plenty of other hero interactions that just shut some characters down/ actually hard counter in the literal/ dictionary definition of the word. If that is the problem that counter picking is trying to solve, then are there any other ways to solve it? Well in TF2 (the grand-daddy of all hero shooters and something we all know OW is heavily based on) Valve got around this problem by letting players swap out their load outs and weapons mid match. You're still playing the same class, just side-grading your character to do something more niche. Are you playing the Soldier class? Is your team being troubled by multiple airborne soldiers and demo-men rocket jumping and sticky jumping everywhere and diving on your medic? (The original dive comp) Then just equip the Reserve Shooter shotgun and do extra damage to airborne targets with increased accuracy. Once the enemy team gets the message that 'trolldier' comps will not be tolerated and stop using that strategy, you can then swap back to the regular shotgun and do regular damage to regular opponents. You don't need to swap class. You're still using the same fundamentals and skill requirements of the character. But now you can adapt to skew comps. I know Blizzard will never do full-blown weapon loadouts like TF2 ... ... but imagine if you could play as junk rat, die horribly to a Phar-Mercy, respawn, walk over to a terminal in the spawn room, select a sidegrade called 'magnetic ammo' that makes all your bombs travel faster/ go higher up into the air and actively stick to flying characters if you miss by a hairs breadth. It does reduced damage to ground targets, and has to reach a minimum altitude before it becomes magnetic/ sticky etc. But it gives Junkrat players a chance to compete against flying targets, and still requires aim and skill on the junk-rat players part. It's actually possible that Blizzard are already thinking of doing that. I mean they have just spent the last few years making sidegrade esque unlocks for all the characters in the now cancelled PvE mode. They've already toyed around with hero abilities and put a lot of work into it. Heck they might've already made a sidegrade for junkrat that let's him take out flying targets better in the PvE mode. Be a shame if Blizzard didn't do somthing with that after all the hard work they put into it. Maybe they could tweek it and port it, adjust it to make it work in PvP

[@Sizzyl]

I am someone who HATES counterpicks as they're unfun and I think if they just reverted it back to keeping 0% ult charge on swap like in ow1 it'd fix a large portion of the issues I have with the mechanic. My main problem is that there's 0 strategy as you're describing in the counterpick. If you see a reinhardt, everyone and their mom knows to just lock orisa for a free win. If you see a winston, just go reaper, etc. By reverting back to 0% ultcharge retention, the player actually has to make choices that they're confident in. After that they'd just have to address specific matchups (mainly bastion-related).

[@Yshtola.]

My experience: >play dva >win first team fight >enemy swaps to zarya >my game ruined

[@Ktsjay187]

Dva main, same thing here. Go for her backline, try to ignore her at times and strike when shes weak. Its annoying though because in OW1 zarya was never even a problem if ur own skill level was higher than hers. Now any zarya can beat any dva simply "just because". You used to be able to negate counters by thinking with your head, but now you literally cant beat them no matter what

[@superspencebros832]

Have you tried not shooting her bubble?

[@Prolink]

From fighting games, I prefer “matchup ratios” vs. the word “counter”. It adds more granularity when you can say something is a 60/40 or 70/30 matchup. And both sides don’t take team synergies into account. That said, I think Overwatch has dropped the ball on support and utility effects to help Tank play be more fun without a second Tank. Instead, what you can do to you opponent at least seems much much easier to take advantage of than what you can do for your team. Maybe it’s a side effect of Overwatch not doing well enough to help people feel safe and encouraged to use voice, as it’s easier to focus on yourself and your enemies than it is to focus on your teammates. (Commenting at 6:04)

[@Omaryllo]

Fantastic video! I want to build further upon it by taking into consideration the concept of "advantage". In OW, the biggest advantage you can have during a teamfight is number. On the individual level, there is skill, matchup, and hero balance. Skill varies somewhat, but in theory should be equal across the board and shouldn't offer any advantage, so it's not really considered unless you're trying to rank up. You can say that skill level corresponds heavily with rank, and is where the biggest difference in opinions come from. This is the crux of the argument; how much of an advantage does skill offer compared to matchup? If we consider skill as analogous to rank, you might say that matchup offers such a large advantage as to correspond to several rank divisions. This makes for an interesting discussion about hero balance. There are some heroes that require disproportionate amount of skill to play at the same rank too, which is completely reasonable and accounts for different types of players for such an inclusive game like OW. However, I think that the advantage skill provides is completely outweighed by the advantage that matchup offers. People find this very frustrating for a few reasons: Playing against NOTICABLY lower skilled players, yet feeling unable to accomplish much value with your own skill due to the disadvantage, makes for a very bad experience. When the advantage is so strong, you hit a sort of feedback loop. Your opponents want to win, so they will naturally want to counter you to gain this disproportionately high advantage. Statistically, this will just lower your ELO. You will play with and against even lower skilled players. At this point, the skill difference is enough to overcome the counter disadvantage. However being this highly skilled in a lower rank makes you able to carry losing games much easier, but you become the "problem", which incentivizes countering even more. You'll be cursed to play against your counters for all eternity. Another problem is that people have preferences on their playstyle. Being completely unable to flank due to a brig means you won't be able to play the way you prefer. You either gotta suck it up and play another way, or you will be doomed to lose every fight and game with a brig in it. the latter curses you to the previously mentioned feedback loop. the former can be quite frustrating, especially if you're not that skilled in other playstyles or you just don't like it.

[@Casual314]

I agree. Bad matchups will always be a thing in a game with this many heroes, but I think "how bad" a matchup can get is the main problem. Examples like the Winston-Bastion matchup I think highlight what you're talking about. It just takes ridiculous amounts of skill disparity in order for Winston to come out on top. Like many players, I think narrowing the amount of value you can get from simply playing a certain hero would put the game in a better state.

[@teabee3344]

I think the biggest problem at the core of Overwatch is “player agency.” Not only are locked out of a character because of counter-swapping, but the current state of the meta leaves you with no choice but to counter, increasing the feelsbad. If you want to win, you have to counter or you’re throwing. Especially from your ally’s point of view.

[@Casual314]

I think this is particularly problematic for more specialized heroes who are consequently easily countered. Things like the Winston-Bastion matchup come to mind.

[@xythiera7255]

​@@Casual314Yes but thats just how the support role has killed this heros and how blizzard gived easy to play heros like Bastion the same power to make them viabel then anybody els thats hard to play . Skill expretion in Ow 2 is dead if you try and play heros that need any form of skill you get shit on i

[@pewpew518]

Counterswapping is a more fundamental design flaw than most people realize. While it is true that that counter swapping provides too much value for too little effort, that comes secondary. Overwatch is a game and the first and the most basic thing a game needs to be is fun. When people are counter swapping, the game is effectively taking away player agency. This happens the most with tanks. You do good on doom enemy team swaps to somber , cas. You do good in Zarya now you have a rein. You do good in dva, say hi to Zrya. The game is designed around constantly stripping away your player agency as a tank. If you get anti you need a cleanse or you’re not playing the game. This course assumes the skill gap isn’t too large. As a tank every aspect of the game effectively forces you to play a certain way or swap to a certain hero or lose. You have very little agency. You’re either relying on your supports or your counter swapping. This is what the developers don’t seem to understand and what made me give up on the game completely. Look at the new tank mauga. He can get anti, slept, hooked has no real mobility. He is completely dependant on his supports or he’s not playing the game.

[@h.e.x.]

16:30 As a hanzo main and an Overwatch player since the beginning, this segment of your video rings so true in my ears! I find myself dealing with airborne enemies, sombra, tracer, and all the other ones you think would counter him. Only because I've played him for countless hours!

[@Bluefire6567]

You should be able to lock in 3 characters before the game starts and only be able to play those characters. That way you can’t infinitely counter swap but you still have other characters if you’re getting hard countered.

[@rationaldemon195]

I personally agree with alot of what was said, counterswapping in general isn't in that extreme but it is problematic, i think what players tend to forget though is that just one hero alone doesn't necesarly stop you, but what about a team dedicated to stop you, what im getting at is that people talk about the 1v1s in general but neglect the fact counterstacking is the extreme situation a tank faces regularly one hero alone can have more value over the other, but if each role had one awnser to that one specific hero that they deem a problem it becomes a amplifier to the swap, i don't think there is nothing wrong in having weakneses but because it is possible to have more value on the act of swapping it is fair to assume that you can multiply its effect by stacking which thus is the core issue. It is far easier for a support or dps to not get focused on but a tanks job is to be focused at and to be allowed to have a dedicated kit on not one but on all roles to stop a tank shouldnt be that easy.

[@shayes.x]

Really nice analysis! Keep up the great work my friend

[@Casual314]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video

[@i.r.weasel7042]

Very well said. The semantic arguments people start regarding "counters" or "hard counters" are quite annoying, I think they understand what I mean in OW context when I say Zarya "hard counters" DVA, but it seems like they just want to derail (or "win") the discussion and/or nitpick semantic terms by saying "hard counters don't exist in OW". But maybe we all need a better understanding of these terms and how we're going to define them going forward. I wish you had spent a little more time on the topic of team reliance in hard matchups. Because the people who would say DVA can be played into Zarya, I think they understate/undervalue how important it is for the non-tanks to understand how to play that match-up too. Even if DVA knows she shouldn't front-line, the rest of her team needs to understand how to position against the Zarya who wont have an enemy tank to hold her back or block her damage. Players typically want the easiest path to a victory, especially in ranked... Just swap DVA and make it easier on me.

[@Casual314]

I'm not an expert on Dva, but from what I've seen of very excellent Dva players is that they don't really have any huge problems against Zarya. I think at a basic level Zarya definitely has a much easier time, so in that way I think it's fair to say that Zarya counters Dva, but on a deeper level both Zarya and Dva have abilities that the other simply cannot deal with so they kind of counter each other in different ways, for example Dva can literally fly, while Zarya has no mobility at all. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the playerbase will always only understand matchups at a basic level. Part of the challenge of playing into counters will always be learning how to outplay them before they have a chance to outplay your teammates. That's not to say that it's an easy thing to do though.

[@robmiller8515]

I've always said that if you counter pick in Quick Play, that makes it competative. Quick Play should not have counter pick.

[@beleagueredbeluga5228]

>pick dva >start doing well with dva >enemy tank goes "oh shit im losing" >counters with zarya Every goddamn time. Dont these people know anything else? Btw, I dont need tips, as I got gud and learned the matchup, but its just that it wasnt and its still not fun having to deal with all these counter swapping shitters. This is why when I hear about hero bans or limiting hero switches, I instinctively know its a bad idea, but I start thinking just fuck it and lets do it so that counter swappers get rekt.

[@laurentbetoulle9369]

your voice is so soothing omg and the quality is top notch!

[@Casual314]

Wow thanks, I'm really glad you enjoy the content

[@EloquentTroll]

I'm a support main and started a month and half ago, and I started out playing Mercy, started learning Kiriko for when the other support beat me to picking her. Actually played better as Kiriko, so started maining Kiriko. Picked up Baptiste (after a friend talked him up) as my swap for when Kiriko got picked. Actually perfomed better as Baptiste, so started maining Baptiste. Recognizing a pattern I picked up Ana as my swap option and my aim skills on controller aren't adequate. Tried the rest of the support roster and didn't vibe (though I'll occasionally play Illari or Lifeweaver if the call to swap to them comes out, along with Kiriko if Ana shows up in opposition, if a compatible damage is rocking out I'll go Mercy if the other support is doing okay). I'm not adverse to swapping but some characters don't vibe with me. As long as I don't lose a lot of Ult charge I'm happy to do it, but my brain can't currently Lucio or Brigitte. I'm less flexible as tank, I can play Sigma or Reinhardt otherwise I'm flailing (getting better at Mauga and Ramattra). I'll probably get there before too long, but I can't just pick up characters.

[@TevinMachart-pc5wy]

The only problem is ppl think soft counters are hard counters and tilt when you try and outplay.

[@Casual314]

I can relate, a lot of players think you must swap even if you're just slightly disadvantaged, but this is probably due to just a misunderstanding of how the game works.

[@pelican7235]

society if we had 2 tanks

[@domoallcaps]

I think theres a huge difference between a single tank swap and a full team swap into a counter. if your team, for example is ana,weaver,tracer,soldier, and youre on hog and the enemy team gets rolled first point. they swap ana kiri orisa mei bastion, i dont think its necessarily a skill differential especially if people on your team refuse to swap/ dps perform worse than the enemys who is disproportionately getting more value by being able to counter the cooldowns your team is using . While i fully agree that one tricks can be better into certain matchups, your team has to all be open at some point to swapping, a team that is consisted of all one tricks vs a team that knows how to play the counters to said one tricks will perform better and i wouldnt say its a skill gap

[@Casual314]

I think it probably depends on what you're one-tricking as well. Certain heroes just simply don't have any hard counters, so if you're one-tricking one of those ones it'll probably be a lot easier to play around your soft counters.

[@domoallcaps]

@@Casual314 100% agree with you there, one tricking zar sig for example with a solid team behind you thats open to swapping is definitely alot easier than one tricking someone like ram or hog

[@Lady_Maria17]

Regardless of the effect this video has, you are by far the most respectful person I've heard talk about this issue. Everyone else has such stark opinions its hard to listen to them sometimes

[@blackm4niac]

Overwatch 1 was also quite counterswap heavy. A PharMercy is terrorizing your team? Well if you keep playing Junk and Sym then nothing will change, you gotta counterswap to hitscan heroes that can deal with the pharah. Of course, you could try to play in such a way that the Pharah just can't touch you, but realistically speaking that will not happen in a solo Q enviroment. I also feel like in Overwatch 1 there were way more of those "swap or lose" moments, where you would basically lose the game in spawn because people didn't pick the right heroes, didn't pick the right comp. This could be mismatched supports with DPS, it could also be that one Roadhog one trick being the second tank to a Zarya when what you really need is some kind of shield tank. Counterpicking will always be a part of Overwatch, it's inherent to the game design, but the ideal would be if counter picking would only be a last resort, rather than a required win condition. It's especially true for the tank category where certain tanks just won't work against certain comps. Good luck playing Rein into a Mercy Bap Bastion Mei Mauga comp, you'll be dead on cooldown. Though I suppose it's not really counterpicking since you don't swap off Rein to counter a specific enemy hero, it's not get countered picking so that you don't get destroyed for daring to exist.

[@Casual314]

I agree I think countering will always exist just due to the nature of hero-based games in general, but I think the degree to which certain heroes are countered can/should be somewhat addressed. It would be best if countering didn't feel as impactful as it does now.

[@blackm4niac]

@@Casual314 absolutely. Certain heroes just have better answers to certain problems posed by the enemy and the difference in ability to solve that problem is staggering sometimes.

[@royceblack6752]

Really like this video due to the way you discuss all the stuff. And I really respect that you not only consider yourself being wrong or imprecise but also say that as a warning. With that said I see lots of points where you (in my opinion obviously) not see all of the necessary parts. I might not do that either but I found some which you are missing and which are important. I eish I had more time on my hands to comment these parts. Anyway keep on doing what you're doing! Great discussion style. Have a good one

[@user-wq3jp3vj9z]

18:30 great argument, some people play ranked merely because it's slightly more organized than qp; also i think the issue of counter-swapping should not be looked at on a 1v1 level, counterswapping DOES take skill when you start to take into account the entirety of the enemy team(not to mention, your own). However i can see the frustration of those who want to play a certain hero and the enemy team instantly switches to 3 heroes that make that guy's life miserable. Lastly, as you pointed out, i think this problem is way worse on tank, i find myself playing 4-8 tanks/game, but i think that IS fun(most times)

[@crypticcorgi8280]

Admittedly, I get why it is important to make sure we're all on the same page with the term "counter." But the prefacing was about half the video. Which is a lot of time to be talking about semantics. But tho I felt like that part might have overstayed a little; I felt like the advice at the end was very useful. Thx. 👍

[@Casual314]

Thanks for the feedback. I do try my best to strike a balance between concision and clarity, and sometimes a lean too far in one direction. In this case, I would have to agree that I probably could have been more concise.

[@RealRiders]

I like counter picking. I come from LoL where you were forced to play against a counter for at least 20 mins, and you had to rely on others to save you. Counter picking in OW allows you to be and feel like you are contributing to your team and overall success. It incentivizes learning other heroes, which is a good thing, because otherwise I wouldn't play heroes like Sigma when my favorite playstyle is dive. With that being said, you don't have to switch and you can still be successful if you are creative. I can't count home many times the dps switched to reaper to counter my Winston and we ended up winning because I adjusted my playstyle. You can break another team's comp by being creative, and that's what makes it even more fun. Just look at OWL 'experimental' team comps.

[@thePontiacBandit]

Game of adjustments. Thats what makes it fun. I love pocket healing a good Genji. The results are amazing even against his hard counters.

[@rumblepuffgaming9415]

I remember, when being a one trick, was thought of as a bad thing

[@Casual314]

I'm pretty sure it's still thought of as a bad thing now. I see players complain quite often in my games if someone doesn't swap.

[@sas4367]

Hero swapping is a toxic mechanic. You should be locked in when you pick your hero and ranked should have a pick and ban phase.

[@LazzieMazzie]

BUT the problem with that is people are gonna get annoyed if you picked wrong hero and then some might even throw by picking worst heroes etc

[@darondaron99]

thats why there isa draft in other games@@LazzieMazzie

[@Kalakakku_]

5:10 In card games like Hearthstone you can build a deck that completely counters a specific deck. For example, if there are a lot of aggressive decks you can build a deck that completely counters agro but loses to everything else

[@Morgan.Farkind]

Just ran a game where I and the other tank just counterswapped each other every teamfight to the same characters over and over for a half an hour. Shit was miserable. I don't think either of us got a single ult.

[@Casual314]

I do think tank is the one role where I see swapping the most, it's almost like you're playing mystery heroes sometimes.

[@BoomerElite4u]

The games used to last a lot longer, and you weren't locked into a role. By learning how to play a single tank and a single healer really well I was able to climb really high on the ladder because I never had to play without reliable heals or a reliable tank, and that gave me a huge advantage over other players when it came to maintaining a decent win rate. With Role Queue this obviously is no longer a viable strategy + the games are so short now that it's hard to have real dialogue with your team about swapping things up. I personally would be okay with being able to swap roles if someone else on your team agrees to it. This is a common thing of League of Legends, and I think it would be okay if someone on your team wanted to get off tank to play heals and vice versa.

[@dovid-19]

This feels like it's coming from a very personal place LOL. I just want 6v6 back man I just wanna play my tank

[@adabwhen]

Amazing video once again. Never fails to amaze me.

[@SeveruSniper]

This is only an issue for tanks. If your tank refuses to swap Winston while getting crushed by a Reaper theres almost nothing you can do and without a tank it is almost over. With DPS and healers it is more balanced because theres 2 in every team and they dont have such a crucial role. Healers were op last season but you can pick them if you try.

[@Team974]

This match I’m watching pissed me off so much. Dps weren’t finishing off low health and zarya wasn’t punching as a final hit after hitting zero.

[@martinthomas2520]

At some point you’re going to have to face adversity head on. Just recently I had a match in Dorado where I was getting pushed around by the enemy Mei. She kept flanking, applying damage, walling us off etc etc. I probably died to her at least three times in just the first two minutes, and I could’ve easily swapped to a different support but I stuck with Illari (thanks to Awkward’s advice) for the whole match and we won in the end. What I learned during the match was, the Mei was becoming more impatient and a little too aggressive by over-extending, trying to secure quick kills for her team, rather than playing it slowly and waiting for our mistakes. Mid-game I adapted my play-style by using cover, pressuring her with damage when she moved back, and healing my teammates when they were in critical hp, etc etc and quickly the momentum changed. For a good 3 minutes, she basically only got two kills against my team while I single-handily killed her 5 times on defense alone. Instead of learning from her mistakes, she became more stubborn and tunnel visioned even harder by going on riskier flanks and positions, to kill me, and that eventually allowed my team to snowball point A all the way to B.

[@Casual314]

100%, those moments where the game feels difficult are exactly the moments where you have the opportunity to improve. So if you can resist the urge to counter, it can really help you improve efficiently in the long run.

[@rdknght17]

He spent 6 mins of this video explaining counter picking

[@Casual314]

It's always good to be clear about how you're using keywords because inevitably people often use words differently

[@muysli.y1855]

This Game is less Fun than Overwatch 1 It feel faster but more frustating.

[@TheRealHypervizor]

I have gone on multiple records saying this. The initial changes of OW2, such as less CC, less shields, role passives, should have been released with 6v6 and at the very least tested. I think counter-swapping is and isn't an issue. I believe the only role it really applies to is Tank since that matchup is one person, so the impact of that decision becomes more impactful.

[@TheHmongol]

This game came out originally with that main idea but however people were so fond with the characters and fell in love with it and called it their main and refusing to switch out was the problem

[@rogue4340]

Great video, enjoyed all the point made by you and some questions answered to why some people have extreme different opinions 😊

[@Casual314]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video

[@jaylennash5058]

I’m not saying this should be implemented it’s just an idea. But perhaps to ease the matchup between Genji and Hanzo, because the counter is so hard how about a storm arrow is the only ability that can go through deflect to perhaps punished against you that’s just standing there with his deflect for no reason

[@Casual314]

I'm not really sure if its fair to say that Genji hard counters Hanzo. Hanzo can still one-shot Genji outside of his deflect. Maybe I'm biased against Hanzo, but in my opinion any hero with a spammable one-shot deserves to have some weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

[@jaylennash5058]

@@Casual314 that’s fair thanks for the perspective

[@flatmarssociety5707]

I recently wanted to play widow but I can't play her because they will just pick sombra Winton dva or doom and just start to target me and because its quick play I don't get my team trying to help me stay alive and after like 3 games I stop playing fir a week

[@godofflashiness]

I hate counter swapping 😭I’m good at DVA but I can never play her long because the other tank always swaps to Zarya.

[@plushtrbl6831]

Don’t target the zarya then, count her bubbles and go for her teammates. You just have to play the match-up differently

[@batatanna]

​@@plushtrbl6831pretty much, it only gets tough if the map has little high ground, then it's really hard to avoid the zarya

[@RealLifeLuca]

​@@batatannathis doesn't make sense.. if theres highground it's easiert to play against Zarya as DVA.

[@RealLifeLuca]

​@@batatannaunless with little you mean barely any then I have read this comment wrong and you are of course right :)

[@rayman964]

Try not to feed Zarya too much, keep in mind that a good Zarya can easily gain energy when you dive someone. If Zarya doesn't have much energy and has exhausted her abilities, you can dive her on and hope support wont pocket her much, knowing how busted some supports are currectly. I feel sorry for you because i'm good at zarya and this kind of thing annoys me aswell, especially when playing quick play with friends. Sometimes i play Dva to counter dps smurfs so friends dont have to suffer much.

[@skrrrtsusman3450]

to be fair, there are auto loss match ups, mostly from matchmaking though lol, and also now with mauga v most tanks, he also makes it damn hard to not counter swap to ana or he basically wipes whoever he wants.

[@Omaryllo]

Mauga is as the devs like to put it: "on the safe side of strong". There is no doubt he will be nerfed by the time he appears in ranked, so dw

[@skrrrtsusman3450]

@@Omaryllo i don't play ranked, so i am worrying all the time.

[@Casual314]

Yeah I think QP is kind of annoying to play right now because of the state of Mauga. The devs are most likely experimenting while it's "safe" since Mauga isn't in comp yet. While I personally like what they're going for in terms of Mauga's overall concept, I think the design makes Mauga kind of weird because he's either very strong or very weak with not much in between. They can probably balance the stats better, but I'm not sure if that'll solve the issue.

[@icyysilver1779]

Does this apply to Mercy as well? Sometimes I feel like I am throwing when I play as my favourite hero

[@killa6tv931]

I am diamond 1 on dps. I counter swap at least 4 times per game. Interestingly tho I'm not countering the opponents dps. I pick dps that will destroy the particular supports my opponents team has. In other words I race my opponents dps at killing each other's supports. Phara is my first pick.... Once the enemy goes all hits scan, as they should, I switch to tracer. Normally it's to late in the game for them to adjust. Sometimes I lose regardless... Moral of the story: I wish y'all would try to convince me that counter swapping is unnecessary or ineffective. Hope this helped someone rank up

[@Casual314]

As I've said counter-picking is in theory always the best option, but in practice unless you get paid to play the game for 10 hours a day you're never going to be maximally competent on every hero, it's just the natural limitation of time and experience. It's conceivable that if you had spent all of your time just playing Pharah for example, you could have figured out how to be higher than Diamond 1. I'm not saying Diamond 1 is not a great achievement, I'm just saying that one-tricking although not theoretically optimal is probably the best way to rank up for your average player.

[@killa6tv931]

@@Casual314 well said

[@strangejune]

Awkward's video was just silly, and the first half of this video is basically why I think so. I think I have something to add though: As well-intentioned as it might be, saying "there are countless mistakes you can exploit" is a longer way of saying "be better than the enemy" which isn't very constructive unless you happen to already think that's impossible. If I'm gold and I realize I could be doing better but don't understand where to find improvements in my gameplay, what exactly am I supposed to take from watching Awkward's "Counters Don't Exist" video? That I could theoretically make up the disadvantage with my own gameplay? I knew that, that's what I'm trying to do! It seems like that argument is targeted to a specific kind of player, and it just looks absurd when anyone else hears it and especially when you assume someone talking about counters is in that mindset. The argument simply pretends that imbalance doesn't exist because you can overcome it. While it's true that there are a lot more dynamics at play, including personal habits and play styles that influence how bad a counter will be in practice, it shouldn't change the overall trend that some heroes struggle more when placed against others.

[@Casual314]

My interpretation of what Awkward was doing with that video was specifically to argue against the notion that you must counter-swap. I've seen Awkward comment on Spilo's video about counters, where he confirms that he does indeed believe that counters exist and are problematic. That of course doesn't match the title he chose for the video, probably because the title is specifically meant to provoke people to click on it by being slightly controversial.

[@zaxyss7339]

For me counter swapping comes down to players how experience they are on their hero, when you are too good and people start counter swapping you, I will just tried different tactic on hero I play so I can learn something new and evolve and be better player. I saw matches where I playing lost match in beggining but still stayed on my favorite hero and won in the end. From my point of view it's not about counter swapping but about getting good at what you have:)

[@therealogdaffy]

Algorithm is really pushing your channel. Congratulations dude!

[@damianateiro]

In a game with a variety of equipment/characters there will always be counters, but it seems that they forget that this is a team game where one can have a counter but at the same time be a counter to another, and one partner can be a counter to another, and Nor should we forget that if you only play one character it is your own responsibility to play in a way that the game is not made for.

[@Echo_ohc3]

15:31 actually, the saying goes: “ Jack of all trades master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.”

[@jbkibs]

let's petition them to have a Lock-In Hero mode! My buddies and I have been saying this for years... that's why we play Paladins sometimes. you don't NEED to counter swap, you can beat people with tactics. Counter swapping is for people who have no real tactical skill. ;) we have had the other team swap 3 times, everyone on their team.. we swapped 0 times and still win... like you said, if you lack the skill.. counter swap to make it easier for you. it doesn't always work. i can beat pretty much anyone with soldier, sombra and lucio.

[@jackreacher6240]

..youve seen the video "the fall of ball" by chazm ? He said : "a solo sombra can stealth follow ball the whole match and stop him from engaging. you loose the game, not because you die, just because you trade one dps for one tank"

[@luuidz1966]

Trying to play buffed ramm into mauga has me hearing voices

[@Oguh608]

Eh imo it comes down to there being one less tank who can reduce the amount of stuff that can happen to you. It's the reason why Widow had een dominating for a while. With only 1 tank you can't do much. The 2e tank gave your team a better chance to win against comps who theoreticaly counter yours. For example, Hog, junkrat and soldier on Havana. You can't do a whole lot if nobody switches. You just lose since you can't even peek ones. Add a pocket to that widow and a sig shield and you just lose guaranteed. It doesn't feel good to lose just because someone switched their character... You don't feel outskilled at all. In the end it comes down to the balancing I think. The balancing has been very weird and awful lately. Easy to play character have been buffed while characters(Tracer, Winston) that require lots of skill are slowly being the weaker pick since they require too much work to outskill someone playing Bastion, Hog, Sigma etc..

[@yabito]

I am not against counter swap. As they said is part of the game. The thing is to me that the counters are no risk ones, 0 time to cast. That is why feel so unfair against high ceiling heroes, a low skill counter can make the match a pain. I would suggest a reset progress to the player in that match if swap, only will get the progress with the last heroe. Example if in the last minute a player swap to lucio or ball to move around in the checkpoint, the score and progress will be basically 0

[@martonnagy8939]

KZbin needs to add a feature, where you can extra like a video...

[@Casual314]

Haha thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I will consider your comment as an "extra like".

[@engineergaming3830]

what I usually do is play a hero untill I can't do anything after that I might swap to something that does much better in the same enviroment like playing sombra/echo before they go full anti dive and then swap to a sniper/pharah depending on what kind of heroes they got situations like these don't happen often in solo queue though

[@michaels9595]

I just play rein and hope for the best. Qp, casual, gold or lower probably.

[@thePontiacBandit]

The tier list does agree with you though. Hit scan characters are the counter to everyone.

[@Casual314]

Yeah I see what you mean. I do think that ranged hitscan characters tend to be the most reliable one-tricks, particularly if you have great aim.

[@imrendered]

I can play Rien, Orisa, Hog, Dva, Zarya to rank, but i want to play D'va most of the time if i have to switch and it's not just me failing, i normally just log out for days at a time and play something i can just enjoy my time in better.

[@Kalakakku_]

4:05 But this means heroes like Tracer are countered by almost everyone since tracer is harder to play than most heroes

[@Casual314]

I should have clarified that I meant given equal skill on both characters being compared. Skill in this case being measure by something like rank. In theory, 2 players of equal rank should have a 50/50 chance of beating each other, but matchups can change those odds.

[@nemesis1833]

I otp reaper in gm and indeed I am starting to encounter counter problems so I can only agree with what you say

[@ARClegend]

Brig 1 tricks having to deal with pharah and echo without counterswapping for the 1000th time

[@g-gamerlol7228]

good video, however its important to remember that different heros have different tools. as a repaer onetrick reaper has no tools to deal with counters as sutch i cant rank up easly

[@Casual314]

Reaper is definitely going to be a tricky hero to one-trick just due to how specialized his hero design is

[@unofficialclown2153]

I just wanted to go out and ask if anyone else has an issue with getting the same opponents every other game? Like one game ill go against the same three stack every other game while running into the same duos in the other ones. Ill win against one geouo and then win against the other. I feel like being in a bracket that has half of the player base in it should lead me to never see the same opponents. I find myself wishing they could legit put it in the code to not see the same opponents within 10 games. Ranked shouldn't be happening in closed pockets of people playing each other. I know this has nothing to do with counters. I just wanted to rant bc i feel bad beating the same guys over and over again while in turn still losing to the same guys over and over again

[@jingping5948]

If you're running in a stack then it's very possible to fight the same opponents several games in a row. Even more so if you're playing in low population servers or at unpopular times of day. The higher the rank the more likely as well. Hope this helps.

[@Casual314]

Yes I do encounter this as well, particularly in Masters/GM where there simply aren't enough players sometimes. The only way to really avoid this is to wait 5-10 minutes before queueing again after your game.

[@lukenerdy]

I had this but I was queued with someone and it was like 7 to 8 am so I ran into the same guy like 4 different times so like jing said it depends on population of the servers and the time of day

[@unofficialclown2153]

Thank you for the responses and reassurance. I was playing solo as a bronze DPS so I guess it's something to be aware of

[@lukenerdy]

@@unofficialclown2153 No problem im a high silver low gold dps so understandable

[@n0questi0n]

They really messed this game up. All we needed was OW1 with more new heros, new maps, and no immortally abilities.

[@TheShapingSickness]

For me there's two types of counters: 1. That which can easily kill the enemy hero in a 1v1, the enemy hero doesn't have the tools to defend itself. 2. That which doesn't allow the enemy hero to play the game. Meaning, it blocks its playstyle, but not necessarily can kill it so easily.

[@Casual314]

I would say that 2) is a subset of 1). If the enemy hero is dead then I think by definition it blocks their playstyle. So I prefer to think about it on a sort of sliding scale or spectrum rather than discrete types of counters.

[@TheShapingSickness]

@@Casual314 for me, the 1 kind would be reaper vs bastion. If reaper gets close, Bastion doesn't have a chance. But depending on both players reaper might not ever have that chance... The second kind would be Mei vs Sigma, sigma cannot effectively frontline as long as mei is there. That doesn't mean that mei will easily kill him.

[@emanchi8403]

If your team is running a Genji and Reaper while the other has phara-mercy you're gonna have a really bad time. This is an extreme example but there will always be some level of counterplay. The degree to which OW relies on that is undesirable though.

[@__Jah__]

Counter swapping is the core design element of Overwatch, if you limit it in any way, it will simply no longer be Overwatch. The problem now hasn't magically morphed into a swapping problem, when it was a healer power balance problem, because it was neither. *It's a player agency problem caused by the removal of the second tank* With 2 tanks, you intrinsically had more options to deal with oppressive abilities like anti-nade. Yes, it was still impossible for a Hog to heal through anti-nade, but it used to be possible for a Zarya to bubble a naded Hog, and that's just one example of the hard counter play that existed...there was a ton of soft counter play too (like just stepping in front of your hog with a Rein shield, that counts as soft counter play). Now, the only way to counter anti-nade while playing Hog still relies on teammates, but there's one less option available. If they *really really* don't want to admit they fucked up with the change to 5v5, the only way to fix it imo is probably the most counter-intuitive; *add more of the "problem" abilities* Adding more anti-heals and cleanses, more sleeps and ways to wake people up, etc. across all the roles. That way, regardless of the role you're playing, you'll never feel like you don't have an option to deal with something the enemy team is doing. Every role should be able to apply and remove every status effect in the game.

[@Casual314]

I can see how 6v6 would have probably reduced the feeling of being countered simply because your counter had to worry about a whole other person on the enemy team. They would absorb some of the attention so it felt less oppressive compared to 5v5. Anti-nade and old discord orb are probably the biggest examples of this fact.

[@Sizzyl]

I think the easiest change they could make to fix many of the issues would be reverting back to 0% ult charge retention. I still believe the 35% ult charge retention they added on ow2's launch was a big mistake.

[@LazzieMazzie]

those who say: "overwatch 1 did have counter swapping" yeah but it wasn't so constant swapping then it is in overwatch 2

[@ethancraven8422]

The way you talk about this god awful game is very impressive, keep up the good work 👏

[@Rinoscope]

That was such a good take, thank you.

[@Casual314]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video

[@BloopTheNoop]

As a D.Va one trick who plays into all of her counters (and she has an absurd amount of counters) I really don’t give any fucks about Zarya players and if my team is decent I can find a way to still win games very convincingly with D.Va’s strengths

[@kup4ever]

The problem with counter switching is the people complaining about it. Switching is one the most strategic moves you can make in the game, and those who complain about it are really saying..."stay who you are so I can keep taking advantage of the mismatch"

[@Casual314]

To be fair, whether one sees countering as a problem is just down to personal preference. For me I think I would just like to see there being some advantage to sticking with one hero so that there's strategy in both switching and not switching.

[@kup4ever]

@@Casual314 it already is an advantage...you have more of your Ultimate built up. Switchers start from 15... advantage

[@Sizzyl]

@@kup4ever you maintain like 25% ult on hero swap, the small excess you might have stored up rarely matters if you're just being destroyed in neutral.

[@kup4ever]

@@Sizzyl you main 15% after swap, it's been updated

[@Sizzyl]

@@kup4ever15% too much