The Problem with Revoice Theology

[@transparentzwindows]

'gender is fluid but orientation is set in stone' Great observation.

[@heartofalegend]

Just had to say how much I loved the connection Perkins made with covetousness. That was a revelation. One of those "Aha!" moments that just immediately answers so many questions that Christians have about how to effectively respond to the Revoice "desire but don't indulge" argument. Covetousness is the silver bullet, I (and I suspect other believers) have been missing. Awesome!

[@debbiefleig1301]

Forgive me if this point of truth was mentioned in this video (b/c I was listening as I was working in the kitchen, so I may have missed something), but Dr. Steve Lawson expressed this point of truth during his Bible Study on Romans (Chapter 1:26-32)- the fact that these men and women have these sinful desires proves that they are already experiencing the judgment of God, for "God gave them over...to degrading passions", and to "a depraved mind;" therefore proving their unregenerate state. When God saves a person, He changes their sinful desires. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

[@Jake-jh9in]

Thank you both so much for this conversation. It confirms what I've already been hearing in the Spirit. That the very concept of sexual orientation is a speculation and lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and must be torn down. I've struggled with this for a long time but have recently renounced the identity and am just trying to pursue Him and His kingdom first. His grace continues to be magnificent and as we're born again, we walk by the power of the Spirit in an entirely new nature that's more powerful and more fulfilling than any revoice straight jacket. He's been speaking to me so much these past 3 months.

[@stephengoble2145]

M.D. and Jon, thank you for this clarifying conversation! Many in the church are bowing to cultural pressure, muddying the water regarding identity in Jesus Christ alone, and, therefore, encouraging spiritual deception. Revoice’s belief in immutable sexual orientation and gender identity can easily lead us followers of Jesus toward self-orientation, emotional immaturity, idolatry, and lack of trust in God. By not grappling with underlying factors, unmet needs, matters of the heart and sin patterns, a believer in Revoice theology could end up white-knuckling, not experiencing the freeing and transforming grace of God personally, and settling for less than the "more" God has for us (fulfillment and joy in our gender and relationships, whether single or married). Romans 12:1-2, John 10:10, Luke 9:23-24, Matthew 7:13-14.

[@caitlin6151]

Thank you for this interview. You have helped me so much to deal with all of the cultural crazy going on. I have learned to speak with love and tryth, instead of anger.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

Glad it was helpful!

[@hannahmcmillan5712]

For the conversation with your friend, the verse that says "we were born in sin" keeps coming to mind. Yes, everything in us is steeped in sin because of the fall (but we have value and dignity because we were made in his image). Yet, Christ has come to redeem us from that nature. We are transformed and that is a good thing! Anything that says something else is a false gospel.

[@JenniferThorne]

If you believe that you are "born this way." Then you will never ask Jesus in. If you open yourself and present yourself to the Lord, He is faithful and as an effect of your sanctification process, you will experience transformation. I met Christ as a lesbian. Not knowing any better believed I could be lesbian and Christian. What I didn't count on was who I had actually given permission to enter into my life. The HS faithfully led me, touch me, healed me in two specific areas of life, and then called me to choose. I chose Jesus and the rest is history. I married, still struggling with SSA, trusted Jesus to lead me, began having children, and kept trusting and following. Today I'm married 34 years with 5 adult children and no longer struggle with SSA at all. It took over 10 years for God to address all of my history and woundedness, beyond all I could imagine. Am I finished, no! I am still being conformed to the image of God in Christ.

[@benjamingallows]

So important to remember the spiritual component to all of this. I hope we never forget that. People are trapped in their minds by their own love for evil to do the devil’s bidding. Such an encouraging reminder.

[@transparentzwindows]

Would Revoice wish to affirm other orientations such as murder, deception (lying), gluttony etc?

[@katherinecornette5315]

Confusing people is Satan’s best tool! Instead of standing on His truth we listen to the Serpent, “ God didn’t really say that”. I have personally seen how these lies hurt vulnerable people who have scars from childhood.

[@karricompton]

I first heard about Revoice from Janet Medford’s radio program. It’s a dangerous organization whose message needs to be fought.

[@Romans1118]

I listened to her for months and suddenly she went off the air..have tired to locate her to no avail. So admired her investigative journalism from a Christian perspective.

[@transparentzwindows]

In thinking about this conversation today I'm struck that we used to be concerned about pride creeping into our hearts from being virtuous. Now it seems this has been flipped and pride is now being found in our sin.

[@jordancain6491]

Haven’t listened to the whole thing yet but A Gospel that doesn’t transform isn’t a gospel worth proclaiming to the nations. By applying the message of Revoice or better yet, (the subtle leftist progressive ideology into our evangelism in ministering to the LGBT group), the actual homosexual is unsaved and told that his condition is incurable and that, his orientation is fixed and that nothing can change it. Seriously, can anyone blame them from turning away with a message like that? Yes, there is hope! Yes, there is Grace! Yes, there is real redemption for those that turn to Christ! Not only that, it hurts the redeemed believer in Christ too! Just my thoughts

[@PsychoBible]

Bingo!

[@tanks1945]

Thank you for this interview and giving clearity on this topic. One result of the sexual revolution from the 60s is Homosexuality which is a behavior, is now seen as a identity like a race, ethnicity or sex( male or female). For the time in history a sexual behavior is now viewed as a civil right and any rejection of this is viewed by the world as intolerance and bigotry.

[@ronniegagnon9680]

Hey jersy Ron / great job awesome video like your clarity in conservative journalism

[@PsychoBible]

You and MD Perkins are right on! The whole concept of sexual orientation is nonsensical, especially once we divorce it from natural law.

[@natalieroman5231]

"Same-sex attraction is not a sin." That is on Focus on the Family's website. What? I have gone on the websites of several ministries (solid, Biblical ministries) and they are all saying more or less the same thing. That the Bible does not speak about same-sex attraction, only about the behavior. Well, at least once in Romans 1:27 it says that men "burned in their lust for one another" and this is a sin. Now, are these people saying that the sin is lust? I get that the opposite of same-sex attracted is not "opposite-attracted." Because that makes the focus entirely on sex. Why would we want to live like that? The opposite of "same-sex attracted" is living in the freedom that Christ came died to give us. It is for freedom that Christ set us free.

[@patriciagrant6687]

👍🏾👍🏾 GOD BLESS BOTH OF YOU!!

[@rebeccanoll3130]

Thank you, Jon! You keep helping me with these important topics of the "times". This Revoice theology term is new to me but it makes sense now as this is "the name that goes with the face" so to say. This is making sense now the error my husband and I have encountered with our church and older children who think the church has been the problem and that embracing this narrative is more gospel oriented and Christ like compassion to the LGBT crowd than what God really says. I have downloaded MD Perkins paper. Only read the intro and skimmed the chapter titles and my head is swimming. Expecting this reading to be really helpful. Thank you once again for having this guest on your platform. BTW whatever happened to the good old apologetic courses in our churches that some of us grew up on in the 70s and 80s?

[@annedavidson2315]

Second time listening. This is excellent.

[@theresa42213]

HI JON! Glad you're talking about this! ~Vancouver BC

[@graysonbr]

The whole thing is about deliverance. I can understand a straying thought or momentary preoccupation but if one is truly struggling this theology is an empty cistern.

[@danbrown586]

I remain unconvinced that attraction, at some level, to members of the same sex is inherently sinful--just as there's a degree to which I as a hypothetically single man can be attracted to a single woman without it being sinful lust, I tend to believe it's similarly possible for a man to be, to some degree, attracted to another man without it being sinful. It *is* a temptation--a temptation that (like any other) must be resisted, must be fled from, may never be indulged or identified with. But being tempted isn't sin. I'm willing to be persuaded on this, but most of what I've seen seems to equate attraction and lust--and if that isn't true for heterosexual attraction, I don't believe there's any reason to assume it must be true for homosexual attraction.

[@CHDean]

“Revoice”...v Rejoice?

[@marymack1]

God made this very simple...repent and believe.

[@hinkenshoken]

I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, that He is the living Son of God that died in the cross for my sins. I arrived broken to this world, I do not victimize myself by saying “God made me this way” when since Adam I was destined to be broken and condemned. The fall gives us all a chip on our shoulder and it’s different for every one, however, when we surrender to God, He in His perfect plan, loving grace and infinite mercy, uses that chip for His glory. I am not attracted to women, it is not something that I feed on, is not something that I desire, use to define me, or work for. I just know that no woman deserves me trying with them as all women are holly. I still believe that Jesus has love for me and wants to save me. So I decided to follow Him in obedience to God. Jesus commanded us to pick up our cross and follow him, my cross is that I will never have a romantic relationship, I will never have children, I will never have intimacy, I will never marry and I will forever practice celibacy. That’s my cross that for Jesus I will carry for the rest of my life. We are sinful creatures for many more reasons than orientation. I am not promoting any culture, I am not pushing an agenda nor condoning any type of desire. I just came to accept that the fall broke something in me that God did not need fixed yet. In His hand I’m gold and through fire he is refining me until the day he can see his reflection in me, even that is possible in Christ. Maybe I could have been attracted to women and be abusive to them, have children and neglect them. All I know is that I only have room for Jesus and I will wait for Him to tell me if the cross that I bear was worth it. I live in obedience of the scripture as I don’t even think of attraction. There is no straight jacket because in Jesus I’m free, there is no void to fill because in God and The Holly Spirit I have abundance. And if my sinful nature ever hears the whispers and the lies of the enemy: “why I don’t get to experience partnership, and romance and parenting, and relationship and sexual intimacy?” I know in my heart that it is because it’s my cross to bear and I get to experience the grace, mercy and love of God through Jesus and give Him all of my love, praise and obedience, I glorify Him and sanctify Him above it all. What is more important? To prove to Him through every day sacrifice carrying my cross, that I love Him and obey Him above anything else including my sinful nature, or focus on making sure I fix my nature to the accordance of men to fit a prerequisite of salvation? I am being a camel going through the hole of a needle focused on faith and the word. Nothing more.

[@johnlavender242]

Same sex attraction probably is inescapable the same as any sin is inescapable apart from the redemptive work of the Holy Spirit.

[@impish22]

another good one.. thanks Jon

[@PsychoBible]

At the 21:00 mark, in Reintegrative Therapy (current version of Nicolosi's Reparative Therapy), we wouldn't even argue with such a client. We take an exploratory approach. As the client looks deeply and non-judgmentally into the same-sex attraction, fantasy, or behavior, they discover root wounds and life vows/beliefs. This is where sophisticated Christian counseling for this issue can be quite healing.

[@richardpriday5156]

In discussing this subject; we need to remember the state of the mind (vain imaginations); and the soul (the seat of all emotions; thoughts and deeds) are where all bad fruit in unregenerate man originates. There is also the sin of Genesis 6 where unnatural relations between fallen angels and women occured; and many or all of those Nephilim and their offspring were already judged (Jude). Spot on about the spiritual warfare here! Part of what is said is true; as to what the gay community will say about Sodom and Gomorrah; as scripture indicates that pride and other sins characterized those cities. That sort of mindset clearly is part of demonstrations among that community today. We could even extend it to the economic prosperity the gay community tends to have socioeconomically; hence generally disqualifying the claim of any minority status in that regard. Both parties today the left and right now support the LGBTQ. The other valid point made is that heterosexuals are not committed to their "traditional" marriages; which the divorce rate in the church at the same level as the world testifies to be true. When we see dysfunctional families; displaced children whose identities are estranged from normal parental upbringings; it is no wonder we see such confusion in our youth in general. This self destructive environment of course has led to epidemic suicide and substance abuse; something clearly squewed even higher; most prominently with the trans community. The testimonies of MANY who have been delivered from such a lifestyle online (as well as that of a good friend of mine) who are now born again and have been removed many years from such a lifestyle brings the greatest resistance from those still in that lifestyle. It simply can't be believed that we can be DEAD to our old nature it seems; despite the fact that scripture states that we are no longer slaves to sin; and we are to be servants to Christ. Bottom line; it does no good just to eliminate the exterior behavior; if we don't have a heart of stone changed to one of flesh (Ezekiel); there is no genuine conversion. We need to realize that the doctrine of demons and the seducing spirits will entice us not just in this behavior but as you stated to COVET what isn't ours in the 10th Commandment. This includes all lusts of the eyes; flesh and the world; such as greed; power influence and many other vices. Nonetheless the scriptures speak for themselves. Only the sick need a physician. I am glad to see how the love of Christ can work through us to reach anyone; as your examples seem to bring forth. Good job in general here. Agape..Rich Priday

[@yvonnetaber1859]

Revoice theology? Never heard of it. I have a voice you have a voice, I’m a heterosexual. What the heck do “voices” have to do with anything except your individual life and identity as a human being. Mixing up an action/behavior with having a “voice” or being a “voice” seems to be a mistake that will inevitably lead to misunderstandings to me.

[@Bioboy590]

You should have a guest on who actually understands the side B perspective. This guy's whole argument is based on an erroneous disbelief that some humans can have a solely same sex attraction. He's basically saying a "name it and claim it" theology, where God would get rid of any sinful desire if they have enough faith. Also, you frequently use the word homosexual to describe the behavior and not the attraction, which is an ex-gay error. The public definition of the word is an exclusive sexual attraction to the same sex, so trying to redefine it to fit your narrative is not helpful.

[@DefenderoftheCross]

Is your guest an Episcopalian? He referenced "coveting your neighbor's wife" as the 9th commandment.

[@PsychoBible]

No, he said PCA.