The Problem With Ultimate's Top Tiers | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[@Elderbugiscool]

The problem with most top tiers are how they basically force inaction, forcing their opponents to not approach. Why approach a rob charging d-special when rob can just punish you with a down tilt or neutral air? Why try to take on a sonic head on when they have so many burst options and combos? The lack of interaction is making people hate top tiers competitively, as nobody wants to play against or spectate those kinds of matches.

[@davidgoldstein1756]

Maybe true for Sonic but not ROB. ROB can punish approaches from the front pretty well, but he’s pretty easy to hit if you have safe moves. Down tilt OOS is pretty slow, and the risk-reward of getting ROB in disadvantage is usually really good, since he can’t really escape combos at low-mid percent.

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

​@davidgoldstein1756 rob is punish the character, if you can't make him approach you in a meaningful way the matchup may as well be a loss 100% of the time because a good rob will be able to see one move from you and then take two stocks without anything you can do, it really is absurd that Bandai Namco and Sakurai looked at the top teir characters in smash and said: yep, in a game with little Mac, link, Ganondorf and donkey Kong Steve from mincraft is more than fair, what could possibly be wrong with a character with extreme strengths and non existent weaknesses be a bad idea when these obviously worse characters are riddled with flaws and weaknesses with strengths that don't make up for it enough to justify playing against the other characters? EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH THAT, EVERYTHING

[@scrublord9505]

You basically just described any zoner

[@yami122]

@@mrhalfsaid1389 Well the thing is is when they're designing the characters they really don't but any consideration on how they would perform in competitions unlike other fighting games which put great effort into how their characters will perform in competition The creators of Smashbros just don't care in fact they kind of look at competitions as stupid they're making an arcady wacky game about an electric mouse fighting A plumber Atop a spaceship with pokeballs

[@KeShaunB3]

Fox.

[@N12015]

6:25 Actually, that had happened. Seriously, many Steve mains became one because after one week of playing with Steve they started to perform so much better that it was stupid to not main him.

[@MD-se8ft]

I agree with you, same thing with sonic, minmin and ness, but only in online tournaments.

[@l.n.3372]

@@MD-se8ft In all fairness, I don't remember any major player picking up a pocket Sonic. The main Sonic players have remained the same (Sonix, wrath and Ken) but nobody really uses a pocket Sonic for cheese. Many picked up pocket Steve, Rob, and G&W over the past year.

[@MD-se8ft]

@@l.n.3372 yes true, but I was talking about the covid era, where tournaments were largely online.

[@l.n.3372]

@@MD-se8ft Well I was watching during COVID era too. I don't remember a lot of pocket Sonic then either tbh. What I remember was people harassing Sonix and wrath and claiming they're "only good cuz online tournaments." But nowadays Sonix has obviously proven that's he's a top 4 player in the world at offline tournaments too. So he wasn't *only* good cuz online.

[@MD-se8ft]

@@l.n.3372 true

[@psipudding]

Ultimate's top tiers really made me appreciate Melee Fox, even if I don't play that game all that much. His high gravity, fast fall speed and light weight make him a great glass cannon that gets combed just as hard as he can combo.

[@srdjan455]

You're just describing Roy in ultimate.

[@capitanpastabase6342]

Fox has a lot of bs tho and he can still be played really campy, but Melee players mostly prefer the rush down style because... well, that's why they are playing Melee

[@codyriot6890]

@@srdjan455but Roy is mid and fox is goated

[@CipherKnighto]

@@srdjan455fr thats why i love watching Roy

[@JosepiThe13th]

@@codyriot6890Fox is mid Roy is goated

[@Epikruss]

Honestly the meta of Ultimate was a lot more honest back in 2019, pretty much all of the top tiers back then like Palu, Wolf, Joker, Wario, etc were straightforward brawler/rushdown characters. Then you take a look at the meta right now with Steve, Sonic, GNW. All the three pretty much force some kind of disengage playstyle targeted towards that win condition.

[@pedrova70]

Precisely

[@l.n.3372]

I don't think Joker was purely honest. He only looks more honest now cuz DLC 2 exists. But Joker is certainly less broken than DLC 2 and nowadays, we miss the days when Joker was the best in the game.

[@XastherReeD]

@@l.n.3372 Even if you didn't like Joker, watching Leo clinically take apart his opponent was always worth watching.

[@l.n.3372]

@@XastherReeD I don't agree lol. I don't believe Smash was interesting when any single player dominated the scene. Whether it was Zero in Smash 4, 2019 Leo, or 2023 Acola. I prefer variety lol.

[@farewell418]

All characters force different playstyles, that isn’t special to the steve, sonic, and G&W

[@itaohs5551]

the "one last patch to dumpster the boring top tiers" is so real Even if you say "we'd still find things to complain about with roy, joker, etc." at the very leat we'd have the COMPLETE hindsight of what things are like right now, knowing it can indeed be worse.

[@StealthFoxx_]

Agreed, this game definitely needed another patch or three after the last character was added lol, and honestly Smash players will always find something to complain about regardless

[@arbalest327]

​@@StealthFoxx_Roy is annoying spam and so is joker, but I'd be fine those staying if stuff like Steve, KAZUYA, min min, and aegis get removed, ILL take ANY spam over those 4 any day I do not CARE.

[@brick-1234-d6w]

@@arbalest327as a Roy main, I think he’s not too spammy

[@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63]

Nintendo: "So the smash bros competitive scene will die out if we do nothing? Perfect! A problem that fixes itself."

[@eyyy2271]

We need a triple A non crossover platform fighter...

[@MintyTea_N]

@@eyyy2271Just play Rivals of Aether if you're looking for non-crossover platfighters

[@ouchpotato2221]

eh kinda kinda not Nintendo is weird.

[@l.n.3372]

I liked how your video explained why these top tiers are oppressive and why it feels unfair to play against them. I hate when people say "Oh, it's only Acola who wins majors with Steve so the character isn't broken." Those people are missing the point. Steve provides an unfair advantage in almost every category. Like you said, some characters have 5 strengths and 5 weaknesses. But Steve has 9 strengths and 1 weakness which barely feels like a weakness at all.

[@TheSharkAnt]

Steve DOES have losing matchups (Yoshi, Falco, Sonic, and Cloud are prime examples), but given how polarizing his strengths are, he might as well not have any.

[@randomnobody660]

They aren't missing the point actually. If you paint a picture of steve basically check-mating you in various circumstances and via creating 99-1 interactions, where if he only builds a house/wall he suddenly becomes immune to just about everything, then the obvious question is how does literally any steve lose ever then? Why doesn't just any shmuck pick steve, build house, and get free win? "Why is it only acola" is just a more concrete way of saying "your rant doesn't jibe with reality". Like if steve is so invincible, you'd expect a whole load of steves winning left and right. If we don't see said load of winning steves, then you are probably wrong.

[@l.n.3372]

@@randomnobody660 You're missing the point too, lmao. Steve defenders, I swear. Just watch the fucking video and stop defending a broken, unbalanced character.

[@l.n.3372]

@@randomnobody660 You want an example to understand about why Steve is so broken? Say you're about to take an exam. Your classmate has a booklet with every answer already. Your classmate is "cheating" but he was given the cheat book after willingly paying for it. You can ALSO pay for the cheat book too (it's only $6 lol). But everybody else who paid for the book decided to NOT use it. You want to play by the rules too. But one classmate isn't playing by the rules. He has a deliberately unfair advantage. He gets a 95 on the test, and so do you. But HE cheated and YOU didn't. You had to work twice as hard for the exact same grade. He worked less hard for the same results because he has an unfair advantage against you. You had to do twice the effort to do well. That's exactly what Steve provides. He's a free win for some players. A free opportunity to rise up the ranks of the PR. To score ease matches against newer opponents. And to score victories against top players who have much more experience than they do. He has 10 strengths and 1 weakness, while other characters have at best 7 strengths, and ay least 3 weaknesses. You have to play twice as hard to win against Steve. While the Steve players can do minimal effort and still win easily. That's unfair.

[@randomnobody660]

@@l.n.3372 actually you are the one missing the point. Why you think steve is broken exactly is irrelevant. The point is if you think he is significantly overpowered, you need to explain why random steves aren't winning everywhere. Basically, if steve is free win, why aren't more people taking these free wins? Why isn't idn onin/jake winning everything? Why do idn all those people who trys out steve secondaries not win? Where's their half effort free wins exactly? I don't need to address your hypothetical argument if, again, your argument is contradicted by objective reality.

[@amberknight7301]

12:37 It's just what ApolloKage said, Japan doesn't give AF and will do exactly that. Not interact because the odds aren't in their favor. That's basically where the game's endgame will go for everyone because who gives AF if it's not entertaining or fun anymore, it's all about winning.

[@asdfasdfadsfasdf]

snake main talking about people not interacting

[@kemmyexists]

just bc japan doesnt care doesnt mean its healthy and good shut up bot

[@maskkid]

@@asdfasdfadsfasdfThat just tells you how bad it is. JP will be corny as hell for the W.

[@asdfasdfadsfasdf]

​why do people get all racial us vs them and pretend only JP camps, can I say Dominicans be corny AF cause of sonix too? so weird

[@l.n.3372]

I remember the good old days where there would be 10 Japanese tournaments and 10 different players could win each tournament. Nowadays in Japan, it's usually 5 Acola wins, 4 Miya wins, and maybe 1 Shuton or Ken victory if they get lucky. Otherwise it's 5 Acola and 5 Miya. The lack of variety only highlights how Japan meta has devolved nowadays to Steve and G&W to the detriment of Smash in Japan.

[@hecatia666]

I remember this problem with Brawl and Diddy Kong too, where the diddy kong player only played defensively and threw their banana peels everywhere to get advantage of a single mistake, making matches more like platform challenges in lunatic difficulty but all of it it's true, it's boring to see the same characters, playing the same, not interacting... hell, i'm sure i can tell that most Yeet Smash commenters agree and love when they see a steve or any top tier character playing this way getting punished or destroyed by a mid/low tier and it's MUCH more interesting that watching the top tier character itself!

[@YuriNoel7]

The current meta is basically one big game of chicken which leads to boring matches for both players and spectators as no one wants to approach characters like Steve, ROB, GnW and Sonic to just to be punished severely and then being forced to play a uphill battle afterwards.

[@dovesr0478]

Surely this won't be the 3rd smash game in a row where the community fails to enact character bans that would greatly increase the health of the meta right?

[@claytonbutall713]

Surely...

[@N12015]

It will be. Our community is filled with morons who punish the innocent and fail to understand basic game design.

[@dean988]

absolutely insane. there isn’t a good reason not to enact character bans considering smash’s past

[@ragames7320]

Sadly too many people are either dumb or they main the characters that we need to ban.

[@user-it2kq4ty9q]

they tried to ban steve but nintendo said no

[@LaserXP101]

The problem is that these characters force you to not interact, which is the worst kind of top tier Melee's top tiers like Fox, Falco, and Marth do the opposite and instead force you to respond. What ends up happening is something that can favour both characters. Even despite this, they are not easy to play cause theres more that goes into their gameplay like wavedashing, shine-cancelling, etc. Because of this, there are characters who have been good despite them being seen as bad. Jigglypuff years ago with HBox, and Amsa's Yoshi more recently. There were even rare moments with Samus and Pikachu winning. If Ultimate was like this, then Steve and others wouldnt be this oppressive

[@traycarrot]

It's almost like if people could move their characters freely, there would be more options beyond spamming safe 2-hit strings for a neutral game...

[@aidenzorn8322]

Crazy how “all characters should have some weakness, even top tiers” is news to the balance team

[@amadeus.7436]

It's not news to them. Most likely it's in the contract for most third-party DLC characters that they need to be good so that people will play them and the characters will be represented a lot. Banjo is the only third-party DLC character you wouldn't call amazing, but I don't think Microsoft cares about Banjo in the slightest. Min-Min got good on accident cause they tried something new. They also don't want to introduce characters and make them bad. Look at Banjo again. He got universally hated upon release and within weeks almost nobody played him, even though he's decent. Now put out a DLC character like that five times in a row and people are gonna be rioting.

[@seejoshrun1761]

In theory, they do. Steve's poor physics, for example. The problem is that their strengths give them ways to ignore those weaknesses entirely. What they need is weaknesses that they are actually forced to deal with in top level play, or that require high execution to mitigate instead of "just use this broken move and you don't have to worry about it, lol". Like Sheik's struggles to kill, for example. Sheik is a great character in theory that is kept in check by how hard you have to work to finish stocks. It's a legitimate weakness, and without it Sheik might be oppressive.

[@justanothermanontheinternet]

Easy freezy recently made a video on this explaining why the current meta produces slow, boring games. His recommendation was to change the ruleset. Changing stagelists is the easiest solution. We have too many large stages(all the current stages have large horizontal and vertical blast zones, some of the stages themselves are smaller, but the death percents are about the same on all stages). Bringing back stages with smaller blast zone could result in more viability to rushdown characters because they get more rewarded for each opening. Sonic is gonna have a hard time circle camping you on yoshis island, and if he messes up, a lot of the high tier to top tiers can kill him in one advantage state on that stage. Ult is still fun for me, and I’m sure people will keep playing it. But apart from banning characters, changing the stage list seems like a good compromise. Also, Lumirank seasons need to be 6 months, not a year. Then we could feasibly change the ruleset for a season to see what happens. A year is too long to experiment with ruleset changes.

[@emanueltheodorus1056]

Coney also made the same reasoning why most matches felt boring to watch. The current stage list not only felt samey but they are usually big enough to just not promote any sort of approach. Smaller stage with nearer blast zones like Warioware should've at least be legalized for counterpick.

[@Matanumi]

​@@emanueltheodorus1056I remember his. Also he said that current counterpicks aren't real counterpicks But also he said "we shouldn't change it because what the fuck do we know? We don't play competitively"

[@TwinGamer64]

I remember at the beginning of Ultimate my brother and I were very quick to point out that something was wrong with G&W like his tier placement felt extremely off but according to everyone back then he was a trash character because of his f-air??? but despite him having possibly the best moveset in the game he was still mid tier or lower? hell no. it was the same with Sonic we told everyone that there was no way that Sonic was mid tier or lower like some people tried to convince us of, and for what reason? because he couldn't cancel spindash like in smash 4 and now had to jump instead? same goes for Cloud and Steve. point is, we told everyone that those characters was actually busted, and because of our opinion people called us crazy, but I think the results speaks for themselves.

[@Warcrafter4]

The main issue isn't skill needed to use the top tiers characters but the character's safety. Nearly all of them can attack/poke with near impunity in most situations, making them effectively not have a real disadvantage state unless they royally screw up. The safer the option the less counter-play there is against it. This was an issue with Meta Knight in brawl and smash 4's Bayonetta because they were also an insanely safe characters that you couldn't do anything about. How they got fixed? They had their safety turned down, so they can have an actual disadvantage state allowing them to be outplayed. Its the reason why in most fighting games "zoners"(Area Denial/Poke from distance) archetype characters get into a massive disadvantaged state if their zoning tools miss. As if they didn't then we'd just get the current smash ultimate meta.

[@nicopootato2330]

I think the top tiers are a result of the game mechanics, as to say they aren't as suffocating when viewed in a vaccum. I feel like the game currently are very heavily leaning towards bait and punish, because you are not rewarded with aggression. As such characters that have a strong neutral natually gets to high tier. If a mechanic similar to chase dodge in brawlhalla is implemented, I can see the meta being shaken a good deal even without direct changes to the characters.

[@farewell418]

I mean most games never reward aggressive players, they reward players who wait for the best options to go in for. If every Tekken player just ran straight in and tried to do a combo, they’re gonna get outspaced and punished, probably leading to death. That’s not special to Ultimate.

[@eem2wavy133]

@@farewell418yeah perhaps we should call the issue safe pressure?

[@SonicTheCutehog]

The stage list is a major problem, since the legal stages are all too similar to each other and encourage camping

[@southerncyan4098]

except for steve, who can change the stage at will..

[@emanueltheodorus1056]

The thing with Ultimate is that we have way too much privilege of banning anything resembling a discomfort at first glance. The counterpicks COMPLETELY misses the point of being an actual counterpick, which is to give you a better advantage because you now have different stages to choose for. Whats the point of it if they're practically similiar anyways?

[@EmperorPenguin1217]

Yeah I don't see any reason why Wily Castle shouldn't be legal

[@MrGameguyC]

Very well explained. Glad to see Snake paired into this group, since he disobeys most traditional Zoner weaknesses and can be a real nightmare. -Zoning/Trapping is already really good (Grenades, Up-Smash, Nikka, C4) -Not weak up close thanks to fast, big and or powerful grounded tools (Jab, All Tilts, DA, Grab, Grenades in Shield) -Not susceptible to pressure (DA, Dair, Frame-1 Grenades, B-Reversing Grenades, B-Reversing C4, Armor'd Cipher that doesn't put you into Free-Fall) -Some of the best and easiest Edge-guarding (Nikka) and Ledge-Trapping (Spamming Up-Smash) in the game You're just not rewarded when you make it through the minefield. Outside of being more difficult to play then other top tiers, he has no true downsides and that's just not fun. (Did I mention Grenades :p)

[@dean988]

he’s definitely still busted and shouldve gotten a nerf but at least you can throw his grenades back at him. that and his super slow obvious recovery are probably his 2 biggest weaknesses. feels like some of the other top tiers don’t even have 2 things that could be considered weaknesses

[@MrGameguyC]

​@@dean988 Yeah, a bigger nerf then what he got. Grenade counterplay does help, but minus some MUs it's not enough. Snake's Recovery is not a weakness. -It has as armor. -The Cypher when detached offers extra protection. -He has so many mix-ups with going different degrees of low, center, high along with Air Dodging and B-Reverse Grenades -C4 can be used for desperate recoveries. It's Middle-of-the-Road at worst.

[@dean988]

@@MrGameguyC it has some unique things that other recoveries dont have but it has tradeoffs for those. you drift up so slowly in it so if youre forced to commit to it its a relatively free punish, you can break the cypher for a free kill, he doesnt move horizontally much so you moreso just have to worry about how high or low hes going, and c4 is a huge tradeoff in itself i think if the rest of his kit was balanced better (nerfed) his recovery would seem easier to punish. hes just so overbearing as it is on top of his recovery being one of a kind that it makes it seem harder than it is to punish, hes rarely in a position where he actually needs to recover because its so easy for him to get stage control with his util and snowball his advantage

[@Umbruh_Prime]

Bruh the first thing i see when i open instagram after opening this video is a steve putting a high% kazuya between 2 walls, forward throw, when he's above steve, steve up smashes and takes the game

[@Deibid38]

IIRC when you reflect gnw up air, it goes forever. The problem is if he reflects it back after you do, it can kill off the top blast zone at literally zero if you don’t fall out. So it’s not generally worth it to go for.

[@SP_Sour]

This would depend on the strength of your character's reflector. Oil Panic doesn't add any speed or strength to what it reflects, or even refresh the lifetime of the projectile

[@Deibid38]

@@SP_Sourtested this after I made this post and it definitely does go forever. Seems like it’s just coded to do that every time

[@just_a_folk95]

I agree with all u said here. It's insane how much a Steve can get away with. Like none of his options is a commit, it's so dumb that crafting an item doesn't force you in the animation until it ends, at least that way he's forced to take a hit or decide wisely when to craft, instead he can craft and INSTANTLY CANCEL the animation so it becomes risky to even go for a punish while he does that. His Cart having an hitbox so far ahead of its hurtbox destroy + the fact that it shifts from hitbox to grabbox AS SOON as it lands on the ground defies all forms of counterplay, add to the fact that you can't act out of its grab release fast enough so u can avoid a fair spike and that's a recipe for disaster. Anvil is disgustingly broken, diamond kills way too early, and other materials aren't bad enough to justify that. Lower killpower of anvil, diamond, boosted cart. Make blocks less sturdy. Make it so if he's crafting he's forced to complete the craft animation. Make Cart shift into grabbox some frames after landing (so u can shield it when he does it midair landing on u and aren't forced to commit to a dodge). Maybe then we can call him a decent character.

[@Sarutaru06]

I love how Sonic's extreme emphasis on speed makes him rather underpowered casually and broken competitively. It very much reflects his games that tend to be hard for newcomers to appreciate while people who grind through the glitchyness of them make it look easy.

[@CipherKnighto]

True

[@RealBroccoliHour]

Casual Sonic is not underpowered at all. Even bad Sonic’s know spamming spin moves and F smash just works.

[@guedesbrawl]

he's actually pretty strong causally because his speed and good aerial mobility lets him get storng items and navigate hazards better than most of the cast, and then lets him abuse these really strong items himself.

[@ragames7320]

It's because Sonic has a really high learning curve. People can't just pick him up and get good with him. All of Sonic's top players (Sonix, Ken, Wrath) have been playing him since Smash 4 which is more than 8 years. They were only inactive in the early Ult metagame because Sonic got nerfed to the ground and was basically unviable but patch updates put him in a good place and that's why we saw all the S4 Sonic players come back in Ult.

[@ayar2]

@@guedesbrawl i dont know, most sonics I play against in online free for alls tend to die second, or third if they're lucky,. theyre fast, but they dont have strong moves besides fsmash that they could spam in crowds, like most heavyweights, or "charge shot" like proyectiles like samus or mewtwo, they can only effectively fight one opponent at a time.

[@tumultoustortellini]

I watch martial arts content sometimes, the same thing is happening there, and it's actually making bjj a lot less interesting. Brazillian jui-jitsu is essentially a grappling martial art, and the best martial art when on the ground because of the advantage in terms of positions, matchup knowledge, and variability in positions you can turn into dangerous positions for the opponents. But it sucks when standing up against strikers. Grapplers usually don't have hands and have to rely on taking someone to the ground, so if you can successfully avoid the takedown attempts and strike from afar, you'll be better off. How did bjj practioners get around this? They always stay on the ground. If you've ever seen guys in gis butt scooting towards opponents or doing the dead bug, toddler-in-cradle stance while staring at an opponent, this is why. In mma rulesets, you can't soccer kick someone that's laying down, and in bjj rulesets the person that doesn't adopt this mindset of ground engagement first, almost pushes themself in a state to lose by going aggro. It's like steve with a wall up. Either you avoid and lose points for non-interaction (steve getting materials), or you engage and automatically put yourself in a trap. Looking at how it's affect both arts (fgs, and mas), I think the best way to solve this is to do what melee did, force interactions. With their ledge grab limit, they did something great. I think the best way to do that with smash, is to make a steve (and maybe sonic) clause. If the steve (and maybe sonic) goes to timeout, the steve player should lose by default, and also lower the time limit to 5 minutes to make it a more viable option.

[@tsubsgutierrez4732]

Same here, I stopped watching a lot of fights published on World Taekwondo because they always go for the same technique: kick with the front leg and that's it. That's why I also prefer watching more local fights (not necessarily amateur) because they don't use all rounds for campy tactics since there is a lot of fierce competition between the teachers and the teachers' students (i.e., which school is better in sparring)

[@tumultoustortellini]

@@tsubsgutierrez4732 I watch mostly docus and guys in the sensei-seth, icy mike, mmashredded circle, but I watch some boxing, ufc, and muay thai, and wrestling every now and again, judo on a blue moon. Nice to see I'm not the only one that enjoy both 🤝

[@brenfps2121]

I find Sonics case interesting because you can actually punish his spin dash with a grab, for whatever reason when you try and hit somebody who's trying to grab you with a muti-hitting attack the grab gains super armor. So even if you get hit by Sonic's spin dash there's a chance you'll still end up grabbing him. Another thing about grab V spin dash is that when Sonic hits your shield with spin dash (if your fast enough) you can turn around and grab him without even having to chase him almost completely invalidating his spin dash then turning it against him.

[@MD-se8ft]

Its negatively disjointed, if u dont approach it during the first 6 frames there's a chance u will clank with it, if it's spincharge u will beat it, u can punish both in the air if the sonic jumps, and u can punish it on the ground if it travels through a long enough distance, grab beats it but its hard to time.

[@brenfps2121]

Yes but, the other reason why I say it's interesting is because if you hold your shield and wait for the sonic player to spindash you It's not as hard to time and even sometimes quite easy once you get the rhythm down.@@MD-se8ft

[@RealBroccoliHour]

Yeah good luck reading spin dash.

[@vivelespatat2670]

That's cool, but _which_ spin dash?

[@brenfps2121]

You can with both but side-b's a lot easier to grab.@@vivelespatat2670

[@X-35173]

As a fan of both Vars 1 and 3, I would love to see a badly designed moves take on smash. And to balance out the negativity lets get a great designed moves (or whatever its called)

[@l.n.3372]

Which of Steve's moves would even be considered his worst designed tho? Half his kit is so unbalanced that it's hard to narrow it down to a single worst move.

[@roamingtheinternet8652]

@@l.n.3372 His blocks for sure. Steve’s kit is ridiculous but his blocks are straight up something else.

[@farewell418]

@@roamingtheinternet8652just make them so they can’t be placed in air and they’re balanced.

[@l.n.3372]

@@roamingtheinternet8652 True! But he has mine cart, too. And that anvil does way too much damage with too much kill power. He should lose all materials when he dies, NOT keep them for next stock. And he has an up special that allows him to essentially glide, Brawl style, which no other characters can do anymore. To boost his already broken block recovery which you've acknowledged blocks are busted as hell. And because his kill power wasn't good enough with those above tools already, he has a kill throw too lmao.

[@l.n.3372]

@@farewell418 Steve needs more balances overall IMO. But that would be a great start.

[@dragonic_puppy1700]

Ive always said when playing smash "its not based on how good you are, its based on how well you can lock your opponent out" ive been playing meta knight since brawl, and whenever he got banned, i picked up wolf and thought it was a good change of pace because now it felt like a game of skill over a game of knowledge, granted you still needed to know the match up but not for one character specifically, i continued to play meta knight in smash 4 and i still used the sam strats as before, just a bit differently to adapt to the new characters and all that, then Bayonetta came out and i realized "why does it seem like Bayonetta can just beat out every character like meta knight could in brawl?" At first i didnt care cause i wasnt as into the competitive scene as much, but now in ultimate, it has almost never felt like a fighting game, and more of a "who's gonna camp the longest until the other gets impatient" i still play meta knight and i still use the strats from brawl, from air camping, to ladders, to bridges, and even to planking, but then all the dlc characters like steve, Kazuya, terry, min min, and aegis all showed up and i went "huh, why do these seem like they were just made to be broken and have little to no weaknesses?" Then i saw the official final tier list and noticed a pattern, every top tier had some win mechanic, item, move, or way of making it so the opponent just cant do much, i went to a tournament one day, placed 5th, then i ended up doing friendlies with the guy who one who was ranked 2nd in my state, and he said "characters like kazuya, steve, and sonic are the reason why smash is a dying game" and i dont blame him, cause every time i fight one i just feel like "wtaf am i meant to do?" You approach, you die, you camp, you lose, you get hit, you lose and die, and if you do nothing, you lose, your best bet most times is just quitting out or not playing entirely, due to the characters being so drastically good, it sometimes feels like play those characters, or you're not going to win

[@MasterKnightDH]

I will say that Meta Knight is supposed to be a Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon/Melee Tornado hybrid. Even with that in mind, however, having played the series from day one, I will say that "lock your opponent out" has always been a consistent problem in Smash. It's why Kid Icarus Uprising's Power system appeals to me: one of the Powers is Super Armor, where usage of each charge grants the user immunity to knockback for 20 seconds in addition to decently reduced damage. It does have to be equipped and it does have an above average cost as far as Powers go, but nobody will really dispute the agency maintenance. The opponent can overcome it by accounting for the user's agency maintenance, but another Power, called Counter, works similarly but trades the bulk of the damage reduction bonus for a free Neutral Shot upon being breathed upon by a damaging attack, something I'm not shy about mixing Skyscraper Club with. SSC+Counter has its own counters, helped by Counter involving automation that SSC's laughable mobility is bound to make clear, but between the potential of the sudden projectile frequency and Counter's low cost for a Power to allow for more added options, this alone helps to stop the "lock out" part, and this isn't even getting into better Getup options or the Parry Chargeup mechanic. That said, Kid Icarus Uprising still has blatant imbalances. Weapon modifiers in particular are straight up over-the-top in general and cause weapon quality to have too much weight in matches. Some weapon types and Powers are still absurdity even without weapon modifier involvement as well (hi, Gemini Orbitars for the former and Celestial Fireworks for the latter) and there are junk weapon types like Bomber Arm as well. This is also without involving the lack of symmetrical maps on multiplayer aside from the totally not Final Destination stages that need to be banned to begin with. But regardless, Kid Icarus Uprising still gives actually good options for interactivity when we don't involve the worst offenders of problems.

[@HaxHaunter]

The only top tier that you could make a different argument would be Kazuya. He only needs his EWGF combos to be more challengable for opponents. funny enough, he does fight very on brand. He does come from the same game that historically used to combo you to death, after all.

[@christopherdangelo1292]

Yeah, tbh despite all the hate he gets, the main thing that separates kazuya from the other offenders is that the dude takes a LOT to learn: he is a fighting game character, and by far the hardest to learn of the bunch, let alone master. So when he does his bs, compared to the others, you at least respect it somewhat.

[@farewell418]

@@christopherdangelo1292steve is hard to learn, but his stuff is so much more overtuned than Kazuya that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna hate Steve either way.

[@TheSharkAnt]

He also has very poor neutral, a very poor disadvantage state, a 7 frame jump squat, and has to get really close to his opponent to deal his Tekken damage.

[@dean988]

honestly the most annoying thing about kazuya is just that he has a command grab that kills at like 25%. he has other annoying stuff for sure but for me personally nothing even comes close to that grab

[@DylanMatthewTurner]

What it's time for is a return to Smash 4 with Bayo and Cloud bans and (some) custom moves allowed. A new ruleset to breathe life into an old game

[@Matanumi]

Doubt that. Remember how few people actually bought that game or even a Wii u

[@thepooroldsoul8179]

Cemu exists.

[@ConFault]

I think one of the patches that you can do to nerf steve a little bit is have their blocks get one shot by any move that does more than 5 percent. they also should at a limit of 4 or 5 blocks in the air before they need to hit the stage ground.

[@PrimeFlash93]

How about ZERO blocks in the air, you know, like minecraft

[@ConFault]

@@PrimeFlash93 That would defeat the purpose of the blocks in general

[@musicjamzedits]

@@ConFaultnot really.

[@Forged4War206]

I remember when people complained about how BS Pikachu was and how he kept managing to dodge nerfs despite being arguably one of the best characters in the game, but nowadays he feels like one of the more honest top tiers in the game because TJolt spam pales in comparison to the campy strats these DLC top tiers can pull off 😂

[@zakizdaman]

The problem with steve is his low execution effort that allows him to trash low-mid tier players in brackets and at the top level he doesn't have much impact

[@sephirotten2413]

I say the ruleset changes each season like other fighting games could work too, like different time limits, stages etc

[@nearautomatafan]

I also feel that alot of the top tiers have rather easy game plans and don’t differentiate much from that. A lot of them just feel like they have one trick and they win

[@justanothermanontheinternet]

Great video, I agree. At this point, I think we could ban 5-6 characters and the game would be fantastic. I know it will never happen though. Best idea I have at this point is to change the stage list.

[@ForeverLaxx]

This problem exists because Sakurai not only doesn't care about competitive Smash, but it's worse than that -- he doesn't think the game should be played that way in the first place. He's essentially built a game series that's about making the character feel "correct," and its balance is almost nonexistent when played optimally because that was never a design goal. Sakurai wants people to jump in his game for an hour, goof around, and not care about winning, losing, or even improving. In his mind, it's a game designed for the casual fan that's been commandeered by no-fun tryhards and he has no desire to make the game better for the crowd of players he never wanted in the first place. It's really very petty of him, but because of it, we'll never see Smash deal with this problem.

[@Cyberguy64]

It seems like a lot of devs these days have very petty ideas of how their games "ought" to be played and actively antagonize player expression outside their vision.

[@nikkobird590]

Dawg how is it petty? That is probably how he designed the game.

[@dean988]

@@nikkobird590that is 100% how he designed the game but its just weird that he actively does things to make it harder for people to play his games seriously, ex tripping in brawl, when those people are like half of the fanbase and part of why the game is so big

[@broncos435]

@@nikkobird590 i can understand wanting sakurai to focus more on balance, but people are really acting like he owes it to them to turn smash into tekken lmao. he's not being petty or purposefully antagonizing competitive smashers, he's just going with his vision for the franchise. people seem to think he was rubbing his fucking hands together while making steve and saying "hahaha, this'll show those competitive fools". just incredibly entitled and unserious

[@nikkobird590]

@@broncos435 nah I wasn't worried about balance lol because I know Sakurai intended smash the way it is. Idk how to explain but you did.

[@nicofire31]

1:07 I feel like one catalyst is that everyone acts like ultimate is balanced, especially in the competitive scene, sure it is far more balanced compared to it's predecessors, but it is definitely not 100%, even with characters existing like Steve who can LITERALLY wall out someone, kazuya who can KO you will only 4 fucking down smashes, and min min + snake who have tools that can keep a safe distance while guarding compared to most, that is why most top tier mains don't even bother to pick up not even lower mid tier characters, especially ones with somewhat of a good reputation like mii gunner

[@boomstickYT]

12:45 I'm glad to know other people have had the same thought. The game would be so much better if those types of characters held down the top tier. Light-midweight, rushdown, execution heavy, with bad recoveries. All four of those characters don't fit that exact description but I think it's a good guide for a fun to watch, fight, and play, top tier in smash bros.

[@EWOODJ]

Meh

[@boomstickYT]

@@EWOODJ Can you think of a better archetype

[@cylle3784]

@@boomstickYTimo those are some of the most boring characters since to me they all play like clones of each other. Trapper/Setup characters play very different from each other because the properties on their moves are unique.

[@iantaakalla8180]

So basically Melee is the standard all future Smash games should gravitate towards, right?

[@dreamWatcher-2]

Melee somehow still reigns supreme as the competitive smash choice, long live melee

[@FeiFongWang]

It's amazing how all of this game's if one mechanic was introduced: an air parry like Street Fighter 3 has.

[@EmperorPenguin1217]

They should also bring back reflect parries from melee

[@EmperorPenguin1217]

They should also bring back reflect parries from melee

[@Team-Eclipse6024]

My hope for smash 6 would be that the team get balance help from FG designers. You can't be good at everything, that's why game development has different people to work on different roles. Finding the balance between risk and reward, in a way that makes characters feel satisfying to play and beatable to play against is really hard. Not something that can be achieved easily.

[@ayar2]

Smash 4 and Ultimate were balanced by Namco, the same FG designers who made Soul Calibur and Tekken. the issue is that those two games are pure fighting games, while smash is a party game with options to be competitive friendly, 1v1 is taken into consideration, but its far from being the main selling point.

[@drainstorM11]

Melee doesn't have this problem. It's in part because no character in particular is that strong defensively but plenty are offensively. Fox and Falco are both lightweight fastfallers, making them both easier to kill and easier to combo. Captain Falcon has weak approach tools and is easy to edge guard. Peach is the fastest to throw out attacks, with auto cancel aerials too, but she has basically no reach. Puff is the lightest character in the game, making her die early on all but one stage. Sheik and Marth are both pretty well-rounded, but Sheik gets eaten alive by Fox and ICs, and Marth by Sheik. ICs btw, are basically Little Mac but with more skillful touch of death combos as opposed to dtilt KO punch. Samus has the best survival but bad approach options, making her gameplan uniquely centered on trade hits. I don't think that any Ultimate zoners are built like that. Yoshi is also like this, but that's because of double jump armor. And Yoshi is a double jump character who, like Peach, can act out of double jump to cancel it and fall out of the air fast. The Ultimate team knew to avoid stuff like Smash 4 Bayo and Brawl Meta Knight but they just didn't bother fighting that. Kazuya is like the new Bayo character and Steve is like Meta Knight. Obviously though, you've hit the nail on the head here, because the issue is strength and weakness. Like, for instance, Kazuya fits into a group of characters with pretty weak recovery, in Ryu, Ken, and Terry. Not the worst, but not very high on the list either. Especially Ryu and Ken. But Kazuya has invincibility on his Up B and it goes twice as high as the other ones, and he's so floaty. Kazuya in my opinion has the best recovery in the game, or at least near the top. Steve, like Meta Knight, can just go away if he's in a bad spot. You pointed this out, but didn't draw the parallel. Some of them have largely unexploitable weaknesses. Aegis has a horrible recovery, but unlike the characters that that kills, Aegis has great options in the air to break combos. Ganondorf, Little Mac, Ike, Incin, they don't really have that. I think this is largely a DLC problem. Min Min and Hero were both recklessly designed with game changing ideas but execution that kills motivation. Steve and Kazuya have options for every scenario they find themselves in. Min Min's weaknesses are mitigated by a broken up smash. Sora has a ridiculous combo game and would probably be a top tier in any other Smash game. Joker's got an egregious comeback mechanic, the third worst one of the DLC. The base game had a simpler cast, and now 60% of the characters are notably obsolete just because they were good when the game was getting patches. Would early Pichu and Palutena have been as good as current top tiers?

[@leaffinite2001]

Crazy having realized this and left the game back when steve came out and watching a vid like this come out every couple months as more players graduate high school and realize the game is frustrating

[@GHeinz]

as purely an onlooker who only plays ultimate "competitively" with my old high school crew, it baffles me that the community is so resistant to banning steve (or any character really, but especially steve). now that the initial outrage of PMLG has died down, the tone of the discussion is as if it's actually taboo to even suggest he should be banned. instead all you can say is that the "ruleset" should be re-examined, and you have to emphasize the stagelist above all else. not saying that changing the stagelist wouldn't be a good thing and couldn't partially address the problem, but this video (correctly) alludes to the fact that it is a much more fundamental problem than just stages, and i think pretty much everyone knows that. this is literally the third smash game in a row where this has happened, and they won't ban the character lol. strangest thing.

[@kevingriffith6011]

The reason we're quick to squash talking about banning a specific character really comes down to precedent. Banning a character should *never* be done lightly. If we're banning Steve, why not ban Sonic? Kazuya? Game and Watch? Where does the list end on who is acceptable to play? I have no doubt that steve is a very strong character, but the tournament results just aren't "bannably strong", this isn't Super Turbo Akuma who is designed out of the box to be better than everybody else, or someone like Soul Calibur Yoda or Street Fighter Alpha Evil Ryu that is banned because of their console/version exclusivity. Something like a format change is a much safer option that may yield results without pressing the ban button and giving up on fixing the problem. You don't realistically un-ban a character because the second a ban happens exploration stops, nobody's looking for solutions anymore.

[@sharmakefarah2064]

@@kevingriffith6011 A controversial take of mine is that I think all of your picks should either be banned, or be watched very carefully and make the short list for being banned. Kazuya is also quite broken, just not as broken as Steve, whose tech and abilities make him the Bayonetta of Smash Ultimate, and all 4 of your picks share the same issue: Their movesets basically can't be interacted with, and counter play is extremely limited and degenerate against them. A big consideration here is I'm not just banning characters who are obviously broken, but also characters that are extremely unfun to play against or badly designed characters. My guess is after bans, there would be 65-80 legal characters for Smash Ultimate, which is still bigger than Smash 4.

[@WafflesDaPancake]

@@kevingriffith6011 I find this argument weird, like fundamentally, I hear it so much but like... Why are we pretending like were just gonna go on a mad ban spree the moment one character is banned? Kazuya, Sonic, G&W aren't the best character in the game, and even then if any of them were to be after a Steve ban, they're problematic but don't actively change the game the way Steve does. There's bad matchups, sure, like 80% of the cast have incredibly few options against stuff like spindash and Game and Watch up air, but Steve is the only one that actively says "no" to the way the game plays (blocks edgeguard characters with minimal effort, walls force linear approaches, his combos force strong SDI from the opponent which no other character does, he has the biggest set of tools that all do different things in different ways when combined with each other so there's no real way to prepare for every variation of the matchup, etc.) Idc about the rest of the arguments, that's for people to decide on their own, but there's a clear line that separates Steve from the other egregious top tiers. Sonic won't just get banned next because he's the best character in the game after a Steve ban lmao, that's not what the Steve discussion is about

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@sharmakefarah2064 Say you ban Ultimate down to 65 characters. What about all the time and effort high level players put into the 20+ characters you've banned? You can not say that the people who are winning with characters you've banned didn't invest hundreds or thousands of hours learning the ins and outs of this character to perform as well with them as they do. Many of them wouldn't come back to Ultimate, because what's the point of learning a strong character if they could get banned out from under you? Admittedly I'd love to see games like Rivals get some extra hardcore players and that's an obvious candidate for smash refugees, but that game will never have the IP power that smash has. Bans also take the conversation out of the players' hands. Why learn how to play against a character when you can whine, cry and scream to your local TO until they just ban the character instead? Learning matchups is part of the process. Just because you don't THINK there's anything you can do doesn't mean there is ACTUALLY nothing you can do. Smash ultimate isn't done evolving either, and a gentler change like messing with the map pool could have the results you're looking for without just throwing up your hands and saying "there's nothing we can do but ban". IMO Smash's biggest problem is also its biggest strength. It's tied to Nintendo, a company that wants to squash competitive smash with all it's power... but at the same time it has the star power of all of those Nintendo IPs keeping fans coming to it. Smash's competition just can't match that.

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@WafflesDaPancake It's precedent. If you ban one character, you give the people clamoring for bans ammunition to shift their ban demands to other characters they don't like. I'm fully aware that Slippery Slope Fallacy is, in fact, a fallacy, but it's far easier to argue "We banned X, so why don't we ban Y too?!" than it is to argue "I know we've never banned anything before, but we should ban X". Will banning Steve lead to a massive ban wave of characters? Who knows? What it WILL do is make the discourse that much more obnoxious and unhealthy for the game. I'm personally of the opinion that a ruleset change could be everything we need to see without setting a precedent of banning a character... It respects the players' time investment in their character far more than a ban and gives high level players more room to explore and innovate, rather than just closing the door on the problem completely by banning it.

[@trentbell8276]

Ultimate's top tiers ARE balanced... just not around competitive play. The balance team doesn’t balance around "no items, only legal stages," they balance around "all items on and set to high on any stage in the game." Pick a stage with no bottom blast zone, NOW who's bottom tier and can't recover? Turn items on, now everyone has approach options. Turn on the final smash meters, NOW who can't kill? That said, I certainly agree that we're so close to having a healthier competitive scene.

[@burpinator1]

It's unavoidable for the Platform Fighter genre unless you actively discourage not interacting like in Rivals. In other fighters rounds like 1 minute (5mins MAX per game in a best of 5 rounds format, 25mins in addition if it's best of 5 games[best of 3 round fighters with best of 5 games being 15mins]) but that's due to health bars, space between fighters, true combos, etc. In smash it's not just about fighting uninteractive characters. It's about fighting them for 7 minutes per game (So 35mins in a best of 5 setting). It has to be that due to the amount of space you spend chasing each other in neutral.

[@haydeniskander5306]

From my ignoramus viewpoint, these are some hypothetical nerfs for Steve (not that they'll ever happen): - (1) Steve’s materials now reset upon losing a stock. - (2) Steve no longer can skip material types, and must go through each to get to Diamond (INCLUDING Gold). - (3) Steve gets only 1 Gold per stock - (a) in exchange, 1 Gold + 1 Red Stone now provide Powered Mine Cart for the rest of Steve’s stock. - (b) the hit box and grab box duration of standard Mine Cart are shorter. - (4) Steve can no longer Jab and move at the same time. - (5) Steve has increased landing lag with aerials on his Blocks if using Hand, Wood, Stone, or Iron. Adjust existing game mechanics around this principle. - (6) Mining and/or Crafting takes longer. Now, if he actually manages to get the absurd brokenness of Diamond, he's EARNED it. For Sonic, this is the best I can think of (without creating whole new moves for him, which is beyond me): - (1) nerf his run speed from 3.85 -> 3 or 3.25 - (2) limit the number of Spin Dashes and Spin Charges Sonic has per stock (maybe 3 each?). - (a) in exchange, buff them. Like restore Shield Canceling from Smash4. - (3) buff his tilts and U-Air: for example, make U-Tilt a KO move, make F-Tilt a tech-chase tool, make D-Tilt a combo starter. That way Sonic gets the most out of his speed with OFFENSE, rather than defense. Make U-Air completely consistent on every character. - (4) increase his fall speed to make him more susceptible to combo's. I recognize that this is hypothetical, and that even if it wasn't it should still be taken with a shaker full of salt.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

The top tiers being easy and uninteractive is one thing, but they also just get straight up broken shit that should not be in the game. Steve being able to camp in the air or build walls indefinitely should not be a thing period, and neither should moves like Spin Dash or EWGF that are pretty much unpunishable and very rewarding.

[@Cedalus]

8:15 g&w up air does not wear off at all when it gets reflected. It continues until it collides with the stage or goes offscreen, reflecting it makes it last forever

[@MD-se8ft]

Steve is killing the game imo, other top tiers might be aggravating but they definitely have some weaknesses, sonic, game & watch are at least light weight, they will have to approach if you get a stock lead, sonic gets most of his kills through edgeguarding, G&W loses to disjoints. Steve can build a wall behind him and survive to 200%, it really feels like this character has no weakness if u dont play cloud or sonic. I might be biased, but seeing a steve do PMLG against other players that didnt know about it in a bracket wasn't fun.

[@Valentinesdayghost]

I agree, though at least there are ways to deal with Steve. You can basically beat him with range or speed, which is why underrated characters like Shulk and Sephiroth are Steve’s worst matchups. It’s far from impossible to beat Steve, but still very difficult nonetheless. It’s also just very aggravating to play against one.

[@NaughtyPigMario]

idts. if anything’s it’s the toxic community killing the game more. And PMLG is mid anyways

[@enemyskill4286]

Steve’s weakness is that he scales with his resources. If you let him get to diamond + gold minecart you’ve lost. If you scare him into burning his iron and blocks, you have a much better chance of winning

[@Shmicah1235]

Except minecart is so effective at getting him out of pressure while also fucking killing you that he's basically guaranteed to get diamond anyway. I play ZSS, technically I win the matchup, but I still have to walk on eggshells pressuring the bastard because one false move can lead to my death.

[@Shmicah1235]

If minecart was nerfed the game would be fine. I see literally no reason a character should have an unreactable burst option that hits harder than some smash attacks, is a projectile, can grab you, can help steve recover, and is a borderline unchallengable corner escape option. If it was nerfed the game would be so much more enjoyable.

[@Josh-md1bc]

This video is spot on. I caught myself knowing the script at certain parts and mimicking it out loud before a moments notice because it was that damn accurate. Kudos.

[@tilka_]

The real problem is that the absolute top tier of the game basically just exploits the intrinsic problems of smash ultimate. All this was already possible to a lesser extent at the beginning of the game,but the players favored fun over performance, which was incompatible with the search for game optimization, so it was inevitable that we arrived in a meta where the strongest characters are those who best exploit the problems of a game that has never been competitively serious in its gameplay. In conclusion: it's not the top tiers that are the problem, it's the game that has always allowed them to exist (imo).

[@saxeladude]

1:43 those are the most basic but strategy independent stats (general as opposed to specialized) I would list the stats as: Ground movement (speed, turn around, and grounded jumps) Air mobility (fall speed, air drift, double jumps) Defense (dodges, shield, and weight also size) Attack speed (frame data, whiff punish, pressure) Attack range (distance, coverage, spacing) Attack damage (percent, knockback, knockback scaling) Attack properties (tripping, stunning, bury, freeze, flinch, knockback trajectory, hit stun, shield break, super armor, invincibility, burst option, command grab, healing flower, and many more) Meta stats (those which players take into account based on their preferred playstyle and character choice) Versatility (mix ups, movement potential, options) Technique (danger zone area where an opponent can and cannot be hit like chess piece movement, recovery areas where a character can return to ledge or stage without being hit instead of SDing, kill percent, combos, kill confirms. Strategy the scenario where a character can play best to their strengths whether it be ledge trapping, neutral, poking, scrapping, combos, juggling, walling out, bait and punish, camping, or edge gaurding, and many more examples) Tactics (knowing the match up, enemy strategy, and counter play)

[@scevda]

I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the most suffocating in MGW and Steve characters are some of the least animatic.

[@N12015]

Indeed. They lack readability that everyone else has. It's unironically TOO FAITHFUL to the source material to the point it damages gameplay.

[@Spyder-Marth]

I am so happy that I main Marth and Corrin. They both deal with these busted top tiers. Marth for G&W, Snake, and Steve. Corrin for Sonic, Kazuya, and Alex (wait).

[@0atslaughter]

They invalidate 90% percent of the cast. Which is terrible design, because one of the most major selling points of smash is that it has the most characters out of any fighting game.

[@jeffersonian4]

Extremely good analysis. Bravo! Do you think banning the characters you discussed (i.e. Steve, Sonic, Min-Min, G&W, Aegis, Kazuya, and Snake) would fix the meta and save Ultimate?

[@Ashrayn]

05:27 This is a key point I think, the game's developers don't have the skillset or more importantly, incentive to balance for top tier play. Nintendo makes its money from the casual market, and are ambivalent and even antagonistic towards the competitive scene because it doesn't make them money. The point made in this video address the Watsonian side of the issue, the Doylist side is that Nintendo has little reason to balance for the top levels of gameplay, and reasons to balance against if it keeps players from buying the next Smash game. I imagine there were internal company discussions about the 'Melee Mistakes' that kept that game popular when Nintendo wanted people to be buying Brawl instead.

[@Letaxo]

I had a time when i enjoyed watching ssbu tournaments... but you always see the same characters, do the same stuff, the same way... it becomes boring. When I watch some ssbu vids now, it's almost always either peanuts Mack or some "low tier" character because it's loads more entertaining and you see, as you say it, more interaction.

[@theidpboi6205]

Been waiting for you to make this one! And as always,it delivered. Thanks as always, man!

[@tymunster]

Before I even watch here's my thoughts: ultimate has a higher percentage of "lame" characters than any other smash game, even mid and low tiers are more lame than cool. We're at the point where the most hype top 5 player plays Cloud, one of the most boring smash 4 characters.

[@lasercraft32]

That's one of the biggest flaws with competitive play. It has to be OPTIMIZED and if the optimal method just happens to be the most boring method then you just gotta deal with it. :(

[@ayar2]

Well said

[@Poolinwastaken]

Please do a “why no one plays Wario” since all the Japanese players dropped him after utilt/waft nerfs

[@saxeladude]

12:55 I want lucas to be top tier he's the master of options and interactions. his side B is like wolf laser his neutral b is a good anti air and ledge trap that can be easily worked around and punished, his smash attacks are fairly easy to punish on whiff, he can absorb projectiles, reflect projectiles, juggle, edge guard, ledge trap, combo, mix up, poke, and most importantly kill. the best part is what he struggles at is neutral and camping despite his projectiles and strong moves he's too slow to not be hit for executing a bad play. to play lucas one must choose each move like it's decisive manado arts or be punished hard. the most interesting thing is his danager zone which is basically every where but sword range since his strong close moves are too short and hit projectiles are too slow. basically lucas is sleeper character.

[@saxeladude]

5:00 so true but that doesn't mean skill itself should count as a boon or flaw it's not fun to play against a broken character because the only weakness it has is it requires robot like reflexes to pull off. boons and flaws needs to be baked into the strategy just as much as the execution. one of the most balanced characters in the game I can think of based on that criteria in my opinion is captain falcon to play him well you not only have to have fast fingers but strategize how you're going to get a kill captain falcon does not give you any freebies you can't kill randomly like with game and watch or play slow and methodically like steve you need to both think and play fast and thankfully captain falcon isn't super hard to do either with so he's not bad to learn.

[@alexandermcmillan8056]

I would love to see a badly designed abilities for this channel because there are some obvious ones like Minecart, Spindash, and others but I'm also curious on what others you think are not well designed. But also this video explained the problem perfectly. I main Lucina and Corrin so while I don't beat the four horseman of Sonic, GnW, Steve, and for the video Kazuya. I can at least go toe-to-toe with them thanks to Lucina's frame 1 invincibility and Corrin's ability to cover space and frametrap. However, this only applies to me, what about the Roy player? How is he supposed to handle them when you like you said, the best thing to do against them is not interact. It creates a frustrating experience because you feel like you don't have agency in the MU.

[@Gigan75pcp]

The competitive scene for this game is just so boring to me. Everyone picks a top tier character because they’re at a disadvantage if they don’t, not because they actually like the character or anything. Why can’t people just be original? And don’t even get me started about the people that go back and forth about balance issues in this game.

[@noobpaints6114]

i just watched a YT doc about aMsa. The coolest thing about his rise was that he had a full time job, picked a character he loved and seemed to be the most sportsmanlike player around. These days it seems every game with a competitive scene boils down to a playing a math equation with cool graphics.

[@EdeYOlorDSZs]

Just imagine if we got one last balance patch, would be so amazing

[@ICharlyl]

I actually dont understand why tournaments allow these characters and why people play them just to be reviled and death theeatened (even if we/you are against it, kids and immature people will always do it).These characters are actively destroying the community for this game and by extension, the game itself. Specially steve.

[@N12015]

Because they are airheads.

[@orangejuiceow5420]

just watching the gameplay footages makes me incredibly happy that i switched of platform fighters a couple years ago

[@thepigeonman_]

Didn't expect an upload tbh, glad to see you going

[@tdmuck]

One of the things i think can impact the meta is changing some rules. Change some stagelists, and make the timer down to 5 minutes. If you have a problem with characters forcing inaction, shorten the time they have and force them to interact

[@eld3497]

You realize that reducing the countdown will only buff character like steve and sonic who precisely can stall the game and control the tempo ? I've seen this change proposed so many times as if reducing the countdown would somehow stop them from using this strat, even though if anything it would only push them to do it more

[@tdmuck]

@@eld3497 maybe you are right. Idk it's just an idea

[@princegoatcheese9379]

I miss when Joker and Pikachu were the best characters in the game :(

[@RadishAcceptable]

Hard disagree with the notion that "avoiding an interaction being the best play is a sign of poor design." That's a fighting game thing. It's been a thing since Street Fighter 2. There's nothing wrong with characters having strong moves. The problem isn't the strong moves. It's the lack of weaknesses to compensate for the very strong moves. If Steve gains such a huge advantage from walling up, he deserves to be at a disadvantage when the other player gets in, but he isn't. Since Sonic has such a heavenly neutral (basically a perfect neutral) and basically has a huge advantage every time the match resets to neutral, he deserves to have a weaker disadvantage state than he has. But, he has a great disadvantage state too and is one of the easiest characters to manually reset to neutral from disadvantage. Strong moves are fine. They're part of what makes fighting games interesting. Even moves that are so strong they "seem" unfair are good for a game's meta "if" there's weaknesses to compensate. Take a look at MvC2 Cable as a prime example of this. Dude has a 1 frame start up full screen super that combos into itself and erases assists with 2 meter, killing point characters with about 4 meter, and because of this he "is" a good character, but he's not top tier. His mobility is really bad and it's a high mobility fighting game. His stupid OP move doesn't make up for his shortcomings and so he sits in high tier, not top tier. The "way to play around it" is to simply always make sure you can block when you're in front of Cable and he has meter. Little Mac's KO Punch is great in terms of design and obviously the best way to play around it is to avoid it. That's not a knock on the move at all since players "can" play around it.

[@crazykhespar8487]

Players should start auto-conceding to Stebe, G&W, and Sonic. If nobody will play against the characters, you cant very well have a tournament, can you?

[@OTHERMRBABCOCK]

Asking to throw away one meta just to get a more oppressive one because “it’s good to watch” shouldn’t be a thing. FGs right now are pretty much throwing away defense mechanics to make new players feel good about holding forward and pushing buttons and to get rewarded for it, which isn’t what fighting games are about. Trading a boring meta for a super oppressive one isn’t an answer. Also let’s be real if Steve, G&W, Kazuya, and Sonic get nerfed somehow (unlikely), they better be hitting Joker, Palutena, Weeb trash tag team, Roy, Ness, Wolf, and R.O.B with nerfs too. We can’t just throw the top tiers of camp into the garbage just for a more oppressive meta to come though where sure matches end in 3 minutes but one person still doesn’t play, it solves nothing. We need to be worrying about Smash 6 and the realization of the real shit that can happen: -Dark Pit and Corrin’s asses are out from the beginning. Pros can’t even convince more people to play Corrin, despite being “good” they’re still despised as a shitty choice just as Shit Pit: he’s a damn color given a character slot. Not a reskin: a damn 1-8 color palette whose series is dead, very clearly not coming back (Sakurai owns nothing of it as it is strictly Nintendo’s IP) and hadn’t done shit except represent Sakurai’s bias which he openly lied to his millions of subscribers on here about claiming he didn’t use it. The why THE FUCK are Dark Pit here and 13 Sentinels here at all in any capacity. -Palutena in 38 years still hadn’t done shit even in her own series, which is dead, custom moves were a flop, her guidance is an outlet for bias and total waste of resources. Also she’ll be nerfed and no one plays her unless she’s good, but even now most have dropped her because she didn’t keep up with the meta. No need to keep her. -Byleth is Corrin ver. Smash Ultimate and Roy was a shill pick from the onset. No one plays Byleth anymore, and if Roy isn’t good no one plays him. Chrom can get discarded in this vein too. Their games have since gone outdated and irrelevant even in their own series too. -Pyra/Mythra (called WTTT for weeb trash tag team). Worst game represented through Ultimate’s DLC only rivaled by ARMS which was a new IP but it got the most content? No thanks. They’ll be nerfed in the next game and it’s obvious no one will play them or if they’re separated. Already falling out of several top 5 in tier lists some dropping them out of top 10. Meta moved past them, their game sucks and no one will care to use them if they’re nerfed so what’s the point. -Wolf Starfox doesn’t have 3 good games (meaning actually good NOT MEDIOCRE) and he’s totally expendable semi clone trash from a dead series, that’s time and time again unsuccessful -Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young Link-been dropped before basically people want them gone too (I disagree with these 3) -Bayonetta- basically admitting they lied to get her in (Sora was #1 and Sakurai said Banjo was right after obviously making him #2) so if Sora and Banjo aren’t coming back, neither should she because her actual reason to be there in the first place was invalidated completely

[@michaelallen2980]

Really happy to be a snake main. He's an annoying top tier, but hes not problematic. Slightly over powered neutral, but obvious and easily exploitable disadvantage

[@dubblea3265]

id absolutely love to see a best / worst designed moves series!

[@peterpeladon]

I want to see a tournament where every time a fighter wins a bracket, no future match can use that fighter. The first set of fights would likely eliminate the entire meta.

[@pedrova70]

Such an absolute PERFECT perspective. I'll go one step further and say: people could just not pick those characters. Why not choose a character where both players can have fun? By choosing G&W or Kazuya you are doing this with conscience that the other player is about to have a really boring and frustrating time. Sometimes I feel like that phrase "hate the character not the player" is wrong. It's not mandatory to play Sonic for timeout but Sonix does it anyway. It's not mandatory for Steve to hide behind a wall but Steve players do it. The people that do this are straight up being boring and taking the fun away from the game. And honestly I really don't like people that do this. Ultimate was such a great game at the beggining but it took such a dark turn.

[@PurplePikminSupremacy]

I mean, if you play to win, then it’s idiocy not to play those characters. . .really wish Sakurai cared about the competitive aspect slightly more.

[@nocando17]

@@PurplePikminSupremacyyes but it shows that some of these players have no character since they want to win so bad that they are willing to sacrifice the enjoyment of their opponents and the spectators. If both go away so does smash. How can anyone respect players like that. Players like Acola and sonix get no respect from people because they are just extremely boring to watch. Imagine watching a boxing match and one of the boxers just ran to reach corner instead of interacting. Literally nobody would want to watch that and the sport would die.

[@ayar2]

@@PurplePikminSupremacysakurai’s a game designer, not a competitor, his job is to make fun games for a target audience, that audience just happens to be the casual one, he can include options and features than can be appealing to more competitive players, but he’ll never sacrifice uniqueness for competitive homogeneity.

[@PurplePikminSupremacy]

@@ayar2 From my (obviously limited) perspective of Smash's design, some aspects are more important at differing levels of skill. For example, a good OoS means very little when you start playing, but only becomes more important as you improve in skill. Smash's top tiers have higher skill floors(say Kazuya's EWGF), which may not matter for a majority of the player base, but at top level, can be incredibly obnoxious. Honestly, Sakurai did a great job at balancing Smash, I just wish it incentivized a more aggressive play style(like Melee, all platform fighters must be compared to Melee).

[@PurplePikminSupremacy]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply though!

[@Wiwcac]

I dislike when disengaging the opponent is a better option for winning than going in and fighting it out.

[@millenium_knight7547]

10:49 flair, megaflair, and shadow flair left the chat

[@dend1]

As a casual, I can't believe sonic is top tier. Would he be top tier without time limits?

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

Nairo has been awfully quiet since that fox example dropped

[@MallyMall4488]

I don’t think we’re in the end phase of Ultimate. There’s still so much untapped potential in other characters that players have yet to reach and given how balanced the game is overall, I’m sure we’ll see other characters get their time to shine. I think it’s just players uncomfortable with the fact that there’s no more patches and either want continued patches or just want a new game altogether.

[@timothywelke2047]

I also think the meta needs to bake longer, especially with its cast size. There was a time where the top games of Melee was puff and fox camping each other, but eventually that meta was changed by different players making that strategy weaker

[@mokatta17]

A little side question but when was the last time solo greninja won a major? Or supermajor?

[@rmdashrfv]

A big problem is the game's fundamental design philosophy. Every character brings a certain % of their lore and world with them into Smash. The problem is that some characters bring 40% of their world (Samus), and others (like Kazuya and Steve) bring 90%. These games are wildly different and the designers seem to choose this on a whim. As far as interaction goes, TOs should do what they do in the UFC and punish players for avoidance

[@pbz7572]

8:37 I would love to see you make a video about this topic but for smash on this channel 👍

[@kudokey]

It’s just whay players they like. Even rob was arguably problematic while Zomba was using but once MKLeo start using, they just think it’s cool character. I can see NA community is very sick with Bias

[@srdjan455]

Right so if Smash top tier suffers because the lack of interaction then why isn't tekken 7 labeled as "a giant case of suffering". Almost all characters had touch of deaths so the entire matches boiled down to dancing until someone got a launcher and then the game was over. It remains to be seen if Tekken 8 has fixed that issue but I doubt it. So perhaps the issue isn't one of "lack of interactions" And how could I possibly forget about UMVC3, where Vergil can kill an entire team on his own.

[@Cedalus]

Same thing also applies to smash 64. It's a game of footsies until one meaningful hit and then someone dies, but it doesn't get the same hate that ultimate does

[@user-ru7vo6xq7h]

I am not familiar with Tekken 7 but how does this apply to Smash Ultimate? the entire cast of Tekken 7 has a touch of death, but in Smash only like 3 characters do (Luigi, Steve, and Kazuya).

[@srdjan455]

@@user-ru7vo6xq7h The argument that this video is making is that lack of interactions is bad for the meta and boring for the audience, and the reason why there is a lack of interactions is because some of the top tier just have tools that are too good and they can easily punish the opponent. But there are worse examples of this out there like Tekken 7 or UMCV3 but nobody is saying that the lack of interactions makes those games boring

[@SP_Sour]

Putting G&W in the same tier as Kazuya and Steve feels incredibly silly but otherwise good analysis

[@Rekora_Wulf]

I'm convinced that humans are somehow getting better at fighting games in general. The growth from when I use to compete is nothing compared to the competition now. I remember talking to my friend about it one day, where we noticed the StarCraft 2 players got exponentially better a little after the 2nd expansion came out. It was almost like synchronicity. Everyone just started making smarter decisions. I am starting to wonder if we actually have a limit.

[@kailesperance1922]

I have an idea: New Rule If a player only needs one game to win the set, they can’t time out their opponent or they lose the game automatically, unless the other is also needs one game to win. This will mainly prevent Sonic Players from always timing their opponents out.

[@duckgta5046]

Hey vars, love the videos on both channels. Really enjoyed your everything wrong with series, have you considered doing that with smash for example little mac

[@gqboygboy6930]

Steve Sonic and GnW running the meta has gotten very boring from the spectator point of view and it shows due to their gameplans

[@lucasyang7410]

I feel like the current top tiers aren’t the main reason ult is “dying” I remember Umebura SP10 having more viewers than Lmbm 2024, and that tourney had almost all the characters you mention at 11:14 But I definitely do think the meta would be more fun if we had a bit more variety in top 8.

[@hazyhayley7488]

I feel the community needs to decide what matters most, whether the game is better when it’s more fun to watch or easier to win. Playing to win just leads to boring content.

[@MoistMarsupial]

Precisely this. A competetive scene cannot continue to exist if nobody wants to watch it. "Playing to win" only works in a spectator sport if optimal play encourages high skill, engaging gameplay. Nobody wants to watch the same boring shit all the time just because "thEy'Re JuSt pLAyiNG tO WiN bRO!!1!"

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

If you don’t want to play to win then don’t go to tournaments. You can just play casually

[@hazyhayley7488]

@@Sergio-wc1wn You can with midtiers. It’s just harder because of boring characters. If we ban the problematic characters we can have more engaging content.

[@yungmuney5903]

That depends if you don't think the spirit of competition matters.

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

@@hazyhayley7488 I disagree. Banning the top tiers would only cause for there to be others

[@EthanKnitessb]

I think this video is perfect. It perfectly describes the problem with the top tier characters and I definitely agree that we need just one more balance patch. Smash ultimate is so close to a perfect game in my eyes due to how balanced just about every character other than the very top tiers are

[@nightslash20]

As Someone who plays Krool, Lucina, and Aegis, I understand both sides....I have to put in so much work if I want the Kremling King to win, but with Lucina it's not to allow my opponents to work around her strengths and abuse their weakness, and Aegis feels like Gnaw, I don't really have to put in the work and can get away with so much Bullshit.

[@RaheemRollair]

I really don't see why the developers give so many options to one character making them game-ruiners, and then give very few options to another character making them purposely bad? There are better ways to make top tier characters and low tier characters than this.