I remember playing the "If you could go back in time and kill someone..." game with a few friends some years ago. One of them, a veteran, answered with "the entire post-WWII US Ordnance Department" without hesitation.
@davefellhoelter13434 жыл бұрын
Yeap! we Won it! with our shi%% and your men! here is your new stuff, this is your bill! but the world was safer for the moment.
@AreGeeBee3 жыл бұрын
@Michael Dinneweth Wonder how many time travelers got gunned down in munich 1923?
@LiamNajor3 жыл бұрын
@Michael Dinneweth Or it creates an alternate reality. What most people don't understand about parallel universe theory, however, is that the alternates are most likely causally disconnected. The only way to access an alternate you create is to take the time-altering actions and then remain in the past (the long way). If/When you travel back forward, you end up in the "present," the original timeline.
@moemaster19662 жыл бұрын
Don’t worry ..the next group to have gotten in there would have been just as bad …a traveler would have to go back a few time until they got it right …I don’t know what time travel costs nowadays but I’m sure the electric bill would add up ….LoL
@jakobc.25582 жыл бұрын
- Not adopting .280 FAL and instead forcing NATO to adopt the FAL in 7.62 which was trash. - Refuzing to install a stabilisor in U.S. tanks untill the M60(AOS) even though the U.S. pioneered mechanical gun stabilisation with the westinghouse gyroscopic stabilisor fitted to the M3 Lee, all the Stuarts and all the M4 Shermans (meaning they deliberately downgraded the firecontroll system on U.S. tanks after world war 2). - Destroying all 10 YB-49s for litteraly no reason at all. - Litteraly completely halting tank development so U.S. troops had to go into Korea with Shermans and Pershings. - Adopting the M14. - Using the 90mm on every tank untill the M60. - Not adopting APDS untill the L/7. - Dropping the entire T95 program even though it was extremely successfull. - Not having a light machinegun untill the M60 (in 1957). - Spending billions on light tank development with LITTERALY ALL of the U.S. post world war 2 light tanks being failiours which would never see real successfull service up untill today. Yeah, I do share your friends attitude. WTF was going on?
@AlexN20224 жыл бұрын
"if you skipped forward to this" - I actually enjoy the historical parts more than the disassembly, unless there's something peculiar mechanically about the firearm
@alexsis17784 жыл бұрын
Agreed. Like he said several times, its mechanically not different from any other FAL so the history is the entire point of this video. Well that the fact this prototype rifle is its own trigger mechanism cut away!
@ChuckBeefOG4 жыл бұрын
Like the H&K G11 German Space Magic.
@ogscarl3t3754 жыл бұрын
IKR same here :D
@ironleeFPS3 жыл бұрын
Yeah once he starts taking it apart I’m done watching. Unless you’re a gunsmith, it’s not that interesting.
@JustIn-op6oy2 жыл бұрын
I like seeing the quality of surface finish work on internal components, particularly on prototype or one off firearms. Tool marks help tell the history of an object.
@charlesboots65082 жыл бұрын
Time traveller from the NGSW program: "Okay. I guess you guys aren't ready for this, yet. But your grandkids are going to love it."
@scoe59084 жыл бұрын
Finding an unpublished Forgottenweapons video is the only instance where you'll find one with a few hundred views
@BlairMaynard4 жыл бұрын
Cool, I didn't notice that. This was referenced in the other video about the British SLR trials.
@redram51504 жыл бұрын
I thumb them up as a reminder I’ve watched an episode. But it’s not like I won’t watch again
@timothybayliss66804 жыл бұрын
Your comment is 3 days old but this video is only 3 hours old
@scoe59084 жыл бұрын
@@timothybayliss6680 A link to this was provided at the end of the previous FAL video, yet the video hadn't been published at the time.
@FBobby4 жыл бұрын
@@scoe5908 You're a time traveler. It's ok to admit it. lol
@thesturm86864 жыл бұрын
The americans : "The 7mm is too small, it is useless" Also the americans : **adopts the 5.56mm few years later**
@knutdergroe97574 жыл бұрын
As a U.S. MARINE (third generation Marine combat veteran). The U.S. has always been behind the ballistic curve..... The 30-06(7.63x63) was a dump ass move, too much recoil with no advantage in ballistics . .308(7,62x51) a shortened 30-06 ...... .223(5.56x45) is the best thing we have ever done. And not perfect. Had we done the 6mm Lee navy, 7mm Mauser, or 8mm Mauser back in 1900. We would have been so much better off.
@efirizaki56564 жыл бұрын
That is the less evil at this chapter
@generalpatton84684 жыл бұрын
Not shocked. We said we wouldn't go with anything below .45 but we adopt the 9mm, replacing the .45 later on
@rasdread09894 жыл бұрын
It took them as late as early 1970s to fully adopt the M16, even longer for them to finally adopt a 9mm sidearm
@charlesphillips45754 жыл бұрын
@@knutdergroe9757 Both the Americans and the British got a shock fighting enemy armed with 7x57mm rifles, and both set out to develop a new round as a result. Unfortunately both nations tried to improve the round. The US wanted to launch a 7.62mm bullet just as fast as the 7mm, resulting in the overpowered 30-06. The British tried to have even more velocity, resulting in the .276 Enfield which was eventually abandoned. One of my “what if” ideas is suppose both nations had done the sensible thing and adopted 7x57mm? That would have given us both a better round and given standardisation in both world wars.
@HALO-23044 жыл бұрын
"A" for Automatic fire. "R" for Repetition fire. "S" for Safe and a hidden position of "E" for Examination Those cheeky Brits!
@USSEnterpriseA17014 жыл бұрын
Nice, I could totally see that being something of an inside joke.
@charlesphillips45754 жыл бұрын
Perhaps you should point that out on www.arrse.co.uk
@HALO-23044 жыл бұрын
@@charlesphillips4575 I'm afraid to click the link...
@charlesphillips45754 жыл бұрын
@@HALO-2304 It's the Army Rumour Service the unofficial voice of the British Army
@voiceofraisin37784 жыл бұрын
@@HALO-2304 Mostly known for their erm...robust sense of humour, encyclopaedic knowledge of the British army going back to the 1920s when its believed some of them served and a religious belief in the FAL/SLR as gods favoured instrument of justice. Do not not argue with them over technical issues, especially do not start a flame war you will lose
@ernstbergerbrent4 жыл бұрын
The 18 dislikes must be from Colonel Studler's descendants.
@ccmogs57574 жыл бұрын
..........another 5 cousins now :)
@ncrtrooper72462 жыл бұрын
@@ccmogs5757 no more cousins now :)
@SnoopReddogg21 сағат бұрын
303 likes...I appreciate that irony
@bel10664 жыл бұрын
NATO Chooses a rifle round. A story of international harmony NATO: Right guys I think we should all use the same bullets and service rifles USA/rest of NATO: sure sounds like a great idea Belgium: we've got a lovely rifle Rest of NATO: yeah it's a lovely rifle Britain: we've got a really good .280 cartridge Rest of NATO: This is coming together nicely, don't you just love all this international cooperation Britain: Urr belgium can you make it a bullpup rifle? FN: ...No Britain: ok we'll make our own bullpup Rest of NATO: so much for international cooperation USA: we've decided a soldier needs a 30 caliber round! that little British thing has no stopping power. Rest of NATO: what like that little fat 7.62 the soviets have started using. USA: kinda. Imagine a 30-06 but a little bit shorter. Rest of NATO: So exactly like what we're all using already? USA: yep Rest of NATO: but we said we wanted an intermediate cartridge Canada: we're happy with the British round if the US are Rest of NATO: shut up Canada you're not helping. OK so we all use the FN rifle in the USA's big old fashioned calibre. Britain: Our bullpup doesn't work in .308 :( oh well, we'll just adopt our own .280 instead. Rest of NATO: Fine go sulk on your little island we'll all use the FAL in .308 Britain: Urrr labour lost the last election, Churchill said we'll take the FAL, he says standing by NATO is more important than our bullpup.... we will get one someday you watch Rest of NATO: Great! so we all use the FAL in .308 USA: we like our M14 better Rest of NATO: isn't that just an old M1 with a box magazine thats worse than the FAL in every way. USA: No it won our trial! Rest of NATO: so we just rechambered the FAL in your cartridge for you and your not gonna use it? USA: Yep Rest of NATO: (Facepalms) ------------ 8 years later------- USA: we're gonna use this little tiny .223 now, turns out soldiers don't need to shoot stuff a long way away afterall. Its great you can carry 3 times the ammo too! Rest of NATO: So all that talk about needing a full power rifle round and the British .280 being underpowered 8 years ago? USA: ... sorry, my bad...
@davidn49564 жыл бұрын
Best way it's ever been summarized.
@Ushio014 жыл бұрын
Having different rifles wasn't a problem since the Germans also dumped the FAL and the French never even bothered keeping the MAS-49 till 1979. It was standardisation of ammunition that was the goal and the US fucking it up.
@wraithwyvern5284 жыл бұрын
About 30 years later: So we're all in Afghanistan and we need to shoot things at long distances again. Everybody: Fuck
@LordDirus0074 жыл бұрын
Well I mean the US funds like 90% of NATO. It should be renamed "The US Military featuring NATO" Also just stop dicking around and adopt the AR platform. The amount of upgrades and parts are unmatched
@LordDirus0074 жыл бұрын
@@jantschierschky3461 Actually not true at all. Where are you getting your information from? The US funding of NATO is nothing more than National Defense welfare for Europe funded by the US Indirect - or national - contributions are the largest and come, for instance, when a member volunteers equipment or troops to a military operation and bears the costs of the decision to do so. Direct contributions are made to finance requirements of the Alliance that serve the interests of all 30 members - and are not the responsibility of any single member - such as NATO-wide air defence or command and control systems. Costs are borne collectively, often using the principle of common funding. Within the principle of common funding, all 30 members contribute according to an agreed cost-share formula, based on Gross National Income, which represents a small percentage of each member’s defence budget. Common funding arrangements are used to finance NATO’s principal budgets: the civil budget (NATO HQ running costs), the military budget (costs of the integrated Command Structure) and the NATO Security Investment Programme (military capabilities). Projects can also be jointly funded, which means that the participating countries can identify the requirements, the priorities and the funding arrangements, but NATO provides political and financial oversight. The funding process is overseen by the North Atlantic Council, managed by the Resource Policy and Planning Board, and implemented by the Budget Committee and the Investment Committee
@Quintus_Fontane4 жыл бұрын
As much as I get out of your breakdowns of the mechanical aspects of firearms (And I do find it fascinating), I love your talks on the history and context of firearms even more. Please don't ever feel like you're going on too long with that.
@martinh27834 жыл бұрын
Why would anyone fastforward Ian getting side tracked? Isn't that the point with forgotten weapons?
@ebouwman0344 жыл бұрын
I also mainly come for the gun history...
@nullvoid25604 жыл бұрын
Here at 69 likes
@cozmcwillie78974 жыл бұрын
You might've acquired one and are in a hurry to see how best to field strip it; with the intention to go back to the start later on.
@martinh27834 жыл бұрын
@@cozmcwillie7897 Impossible!
@cozmcwillie78974 жыл бұрын
@@martinh2783 Right enough: I must've gone temporarily insane -again. If it was just about any other firearm I'd be on firmer ground. I must go now and beat myself up.
@Mongo63a4 жыл бұрын
I love seeing the early versions of guns that were later put into mass production. The differences the final design incorporated to make manufacturing easier and cheaper are so neat from an engineering perspective. Looking at this , the lower was changed to stamped and even small details like the latch catch on the lower went from an oval to round which is easier to perform the machining operation.
@jonniezodiac4 жыл бұрын
And the wooden foregrip, that's a decent amount of machining
@codi1494 жыл бұрын
The rifle no one liked at the time but the rifle we needed instead they changed caliber and other things and only now we realize how good it was at the beginning
@DAKOTA567774 жыл бұрын
"No one liked," err, no. More accurately: The rifle everyone but a few influential Americans liked.
@johnfisk8114 жыл бұрын
Trivia: but .303 was designed as a smokeless powder cartridge. Only the powder was not ready when the rifle went into production so a hollow pellet black powder charge was used in the interim until it got the smokeless powder that was intended.
@matthayward78894 жыл бұрын
Such a cool weapon. Love everything Ian does from the Royal Armouries 👌
@COIcultist4 жыл бұрын
Still waiting for the fulfilment of a long ago promise to fire and evaluate a .280British FAL. I await patiently Ian. The front woodwork does have a very EM-2 look to itself. Fine example of using the right sized screwdriver for that disassembly Ian. I challenge you to find out which pre decimal coin was actually sized up to turn that screw head? With the viewing figures I presume this was actually released after the film on the two trial British FALs?
@matthewspencer50864 жыл бұрын
Halfpenny, I think, soldiers were not made of money!
@faeembrugh4 жыл бұрын
In the British army, there was no way your sergeant was going to let you take that bit apart!
@johnc89104 жыл бұрын
You could have bought a 7mm FAL surplus in the USA in the early '60's for around $70 (about $600) each.
@ron8274 жыл бұрын
It is interesting that Pederson had developed his .276 cartridge in 1923 in competition with the M1 Garand and the U.S. did not like it even back then because of ammunition logistics.
@SnoopReddogg4 жыл бұрын
The fallacy of logistics supply... the same reason any proposed 'improvement' on the 5.56 has to fit into a AR Mag, not because a larger round would be better, just like the 30/06 in the 30s, they have so many AR mags in store they're never going to scrap them for anything else
@chrisstephens66734 жыл бұрын
"Let's all have the same cartridge so we can help each other out in times of crisis" Then comes Suez and your allies drop you in the crapper.! Great! However I love the way Ian is nonpartisan and tells it like it is. A true historian, isn't it about time some University gave him an honorary Doctorate 👍
@paulshayter11134 жыл бұрын
He's not a Hollywood celebrity, no honorary degree for him. Plus he's involved with guns and they could never honor something so evil. Look what they did to that "war monger" Greg "Pappy" Boyington (leader of the Black Sheep Squadron).
@dougscott81613 жыл бұрын
An Honorary Doctorate? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he already has an EARNED Doctorate.
@chrisstephens66733 жыл бұрын
@@dougscott8161 anybody can earn a doctorste but you have to be someone of note to be given an honorary one.
@donjones47194 жыл бұрын
Winston Churchill didn't just have his WW II experience to rely on. He was the Minister for Munitions in WW I. So, yes, he understood the importance of munitions logistics. In his history of WW II he writes more about logistics and troop transport and vehicle shortages than he does of battles.
@LazyLifeIFreak4 жыл бұрын
*Bureaucracy, bureaucracy never changes*
@LL-cz5ql4 жыл бұрын
Corruption, corruption never changes*
@moritamikamikara38794 жыл бұрын
@@LL-cz5ql There's a difference?
@tisFrancesfault4 жыл бұрын
@@moritamikamikara3879 yes, an effective bureaucracy actually reduces corruption.
@moritamikamikara38794 жыл бұрын
@@tisFrancesfault I've yet to see such a thing
@tisFrancesfault4 жыл бұрын
@dustisdeadbodies85 Not the same result as no bureaucracy, without bureaucracy, everything bigger than small group of people becomes a shit show.
@cainsy81244 жыл бұрын
Ah, brilliant. My friend and I were chatting about the SLR (we're both Brits living in Australia) the other day. I was trying to tell him about its origins but I didn't have the details. And here it is! Thank you. PS: Looks a bit EM2 with that woodwork.
@davidjensen24114 жыл бұрын
So...270 was determined to be the superior calibre as far back as the 50's!
@donpaterson44764 жыл бұрын
7 x57 Mauser 1893 worked pretty well for the Boer again the Poms in Africa .
@Atombender4 жыл бұрын
7x57 Mauser. 6.5x55 Swedish. .270 Winchester. Decades of oustanding performances by established calibers were being dismissed, so that some selfish asshole could have his way. And the soldiers were paying the price for it on Asian battlefields.
@neutronalchemist32414 жыл бұрын
As far as the late 19th century (6.5X52, 6.5X53r, 6.5X54, 6.5 Arisaka...)
@ScottKenny19784 жыл бұрын
@Peter Connell 6.5 has better flight ballistics, 7mm/.284 has better terminal effect. 6.8/.270 splits the difference.
@randymagnum1434 жыл бұрын
@@donpaterson4476 neck it down to 6.5, take all the taper out, and blow the shoulder forward to 40* and you probably have the best all around rifle cartridge on the planet.
@martinstrumpfer16204 жыл бұрын
What kind of person skips the history to a gun!? I mean Small Arms Solutions gave me an in depth story on the Nato trials yet I still learnt something here. NeVeR sKiP tHe InTrO!
@Lpph964 жыл бұрын
Excellent keep them coming, fascinating reading the trials books for the FN and EM2 era of British rifle development
@MartintheTinman4 жыл бұрын
What a beautiful weapon. I owned the Australian version of this the 7.62mm SLR L1A1 purchased brand new
@55vma4 жыл бұрын
Yeah. Then the bastards took them off us!!!!
@FrostySire4 жыл бұрын
I think if the British actually adopted the EM-2 in .280 they would of been way ahead in firearms for a while and wouldn’t of had that total shit show of the L85a1
@keptinkaos63844 жыл бұрын
I also believe the AR would still have come about and been a better rifle for .280
@hattyfarbuckle4 жыл бұрын
@Infectious Legume Gotta agree. H&K sorted the L85 so I'm sure us Brits could have if it had been done properly.. Since we dodn't likelyhood is we would have screwed up the EM2
@AshleyPomeroy4 жыл бұрын
I dunno - by the 1980s the rifles would have been worn out, the factory would have still gone bust, and it didn't use STANAG magazines, so it would probably have been at the end of its life. The obvious solution would have been to adopt a domestic-built version of the AR15 at some point in the 1980s. The general argument against the EM2 is that it was mechanically complicated, but for both the kind of mission the British Army trained for in the Cold War (nuclear armageddon) and the mission it eventually got (slowly walking through Belfast) that wouldn't have been a huge problem.
@DAKOTA567774 жыл бұрын
@Infectious Legume The EM-2 is mechanically entirely different than the L85, check out Ian's video on it. Indeed he test fired one and liked it a lot I recall, despite the 60 year old ammo giving some problems.
@DAKOTA567774 жыл бұрын
@Infectious Legume Considering you said it would be a complete shitshow like the L85... which was a complete shitshow due primarily to its poor mechanical performance, the implication is there. From what I've seen and indeed Ian also has said about it, the EM-2 was a pretty good rifle, and considering Ian isn't generally a fan of bullpups that's quite the praise. As for the cartridge... well 10 years later America came to the same conclusion the rest of Europe already had that an intermediate cartridge was the way forward sooo... not sure what's rose coloured about that. .280 British may be a bit on the heavy side for automatic fire in light rifles, particularly compared to 5.56, so indeed it's not perfect, but it absolutely was a better infantry cartridge than 7.62.
@davidsolyom56043 жыл бұрын
Would be interesting to see that early FAL in 8mm kurz!
@roberttrester40304 жыл бұрын
Damn that mag has one hell of a dent in it. Looks like someone took a very large punch to it lol. I bet that rifle is a great shooter shame they didn't keep that cartridge.
@alexsis17784 жыл бұрын
Totally at first thought you meant someone hit it with their fist and was going to say it looked more like a punch with its perfect circle... Then realized that's exactly what you said heh.
@roberttrester40304 жыл бұрын
@@alexsis1778 lol
@Gliese3804 жыл бұрын
lots of FALs lately, not that anyone is complaining
@alltat4 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't complain if all of 2020 was spent looking at nothing but FALs and FNCs.
@alltat4 жыл бұрын
@@toki89666 The FN CAL, F2000, and SCAR are also acceptable. As is the FN MAG, for entirely unrelated reasons. No Minimis, though.
@AshleyPomeroy4 жыл бұрын
@@toki89666 I think he looked at the CAL, back in January 2019. It's relatively dull - the development seems to have been unproblematic, it had an AKM-style action, there were only two variants, it didn't sell. It doesn't have the same classic looks as the FAL.
@xmm-cf5eg4 жыл бұрын
I'd like an FN-FNC video or two.
@SKALS-ICY-TOM4 жыл бұрын
Ian: the .303 was totally obsolete by 1945, it had a rim.......... 7,62x54R: Am i a joke to you ?
@jalpat22724 жыл бұрын
for a standard combat rifle yes but for everything else especially gpmg no.
@devincook27364 жыл бұрын
Claims it doesn't work well in box mags.. Dragunov: Hold my vodka
@jalpat22724 жыл бұрын
@@devincook2736 i didnt said anything about box magazine , and considering russian never consider making high cap magz (not dp 28 pan magz) for 54r they know it ends there except for svd which only using 10 rounds magz. curiously they made gpmgs (rp-46 and pk) around the catridge.
@devincook27364 жыл бұрын
@@jalpat2272 to be fair, Ian mentioned box mag. I'm amused that sporter Veprs can be had in 7.62*54r despite the 'knowledge' that rims and box mags don't work, but I agree that using something like that as a standard rifle would be ridiculous in most environments.
@ТолянЖига4 жыл бұрын
@@jalpat2272 how about АВС-36 with 15 rounds, СВУ-АС with 20 rounds mags?
@Frykin4 жыл бұрын
Ian I for one love you talking about history. And you do it so well. So talk more and dont feel like you've gone on too long
@MonkeyDespot4 жыл бұрын
Great video! I'm glad that I was able to finally find and see it. I only hope that a bunch of other people will get to see it, like it, and share it now.
@glennwoodbury7384 Жыл бұрын
I'd love to see a review of the Venezuelan FN chambered in 7 mm Venezuelan/FN.
@timothybayliss66804 жыл бұрын
Although it seems a bit asthmatic compared to 7.62x51 it is a pretty good bump above 7.62x39. Unfortunate because this really could have been something that really would have worked well.
@Vespuchian4 жыл бұрын
(Continues to impotently shake fist at historical figures for denying widespread use of 7mm)
@SlavicCelery4 жыл бұрын
Well to be fair, 7mm isn't intermediate so that's a dead end. And if you're splitting a rifle and gpmg round...you'll want more oomph. Bad logic by USA, but accidentally right.
@Vespuchian4 жыл бұрын
Timothy Soen I’m curious why you wouldn’t consider a 7mm cartridge‘intermediate’ given its development as precisely that.
@Vespuchian4 жыл бұрын
@@SlavicCelery I see your point, although I think calling the .280 British 'intermediate' compared to the then-current .303 and 30.06 was reasonable. Are you thinking of the 7mm Winchester? That's a much more powerful round than the .280 (7x43 mm).
@andresmartinezramos75133 жыл бұрын
@@SlavicCelery 7.62x39 Russian is an intermediate round
@jwc007894 жыл бұрын
Very Interesting History! We have Col. Strudler to blame for the adoption of the T65/M14, later replaced by the AR15/M16. I think that the 7x57mm Mauser would have been an excellent Cartridge for an FAL.
@michaelwarenycia75884 ай бұрын
Yes,performance and accuracy wise, it probably would be. However it still wouldn't have been sufficiently American to please the US.
@ianskinner16194 жыл бұрын
I loved my C1 and C2.. i pretty much retired after CAF moved to the M16 chassis. Speaking of full giggle; a C2 will miss the barn , even if your standing inside it, when going to second position.
@rangefinder35384 жыл бұрын
What a way to start the day.Another great video from Ian!
@rossanderson44404 жыл бұрын
Wish he would have mentioned how rechambering the FAL to .308 NATO pushed the rifle to the very limits of its capability. It would have been so much better in 7mm.
@loupiscanis94494 жыл бұрын
Thank you , Ian .
@richarddombakly4134 жыл бұрын
I could watch Ian talk about guns for hours,he's definitely an authority, gentleman and a scholar
@Frenchcrop4 жыл бұрын
Ian, great video as always. Please note that “D’armes” (as in “Fabrique Nationale”) is pronounced as is written though dropping the final ‘s’. Think of it as “Darme”, though with a very slight roll on the ‘r’. Thanks!
@kevinoliver3083 Жыл бұрын
.303 originated as a smokeless round. The black powder loads were a stopgap while the British worked out how to safely mass produce smokeless propellants (without blowing ourselves up!).
@USSEnterpriseA17014 жыл бұрын
I know there's going to be so much hate for the M-14 and the 7.62 NATO cartridge here, but there were a few seemingly legitimate reasons why the U.S. Army was so set on them and they largely have to do with money. First, the rifle was initially billed as being able to be produced on the same machines and tooling as the M1, which I'm sure was a huge factor in the decision making considering how much that tooling cost. Sadly this proved to not entirely be the case. Second, I'm sure at some point there was some notion of being able to convert the M1 rifles already in inventory to what would become M-14 standard (after all, that's how the project started in the first place). Again, this largely came to nothing. Third, I imagine it would have been relatively trivial to adapt the tooling and machinery for the production of .30-06 to 7.62 NATO, which again considering the WWII investment made, it made a good bit of sense. And finally fourth, I imagine that by the time most of the problems with the previous points came to light, there was likely a sense of, 'well, we've spent this much time and effort on it, might as well keep going. It's gotta pay off eventually.' It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that's pretty much what happened. I think when the project was started, a lot of this made sense, but by the time it ended, they had made the perfect rifle for the previous war and spent far too much time and money on it. In a sense, my like one of my favorite battleships (points if you can guess which one), in their minds it had become too big to fail (or be allowed to fail).
@travisdowdy33624 жыл бұрын
Hindsight tends to bash their decisions harder than it should. The M-14 was suppose to be an upgrade to the Garand. A proven much praised rifle. The 7.62 nato was the new improved version of the .30-06. New powder, smaller case, and same ballistics. All logical choices. Proven concepts. The problem comes when trying to make the improved Garand also be the BAR, M1 carbine, Grease gun, etc. The M-14 and 7.62 Nato could have been an improved Garand. It could not be a replacement for everything.
@imgvillasrc16082 жыл бұрын
@@travisdowdy3362 If the Americans really wanted the M14 to be a jack-of-all trades gun that can perform 7 other guns AND be a converted M1 Garand, then I imagine a BM-59 with a pistol grip chambered in .280 British would have fulfilled those desires. Problem was it was hampered by conservatives who wanted a semi-straight grip rifle chambered in a .30 caliber round.
@gunny12344 жыл бұрын
one small correction..in service we referred to the 'bolt' as a breech block..with a breech block carrier..not a bolt carrier
@paulandsueroberts41214 жыл бұрын
Original size for the EM-2 was 4.85.I had a conversation with the co-designer back in the 1970s at the Royal Ordnance Factory in Manchester.....really interesting chat.
@DJTheMetalheadMercenary4 жыл бұрын
Man, this is certainly a fascinating time in weapon development history. That caliber certainly seems capable, but the 7.62 variant really showed it's efficacy in conflicts like Angola and the Falklands. What I would like to see is a "modernized"/ updated version of the EM-2 in 6.5 Grendel, I think that honestly would be a really smart and robust transition for the Brits to move to in the near future over the temperamental L85/ SA-80 systems, much like how us Americans are testing the 6.8 SPC again for implementation I think 6.5 Grendel would be a better option to shift to. Love this stuff Ian and crew, cheers.
@lesjames51914 жыл бұрын
Churchill had something to do with the war! that made me smile, he fought in the first war the Boer war and the Sudan war. A real warrior his books are well worth reading, And he was American on his mother's side. Thanks Ian for another excellent video
@IceWolfLoki4 жыл бұрын
"And he was American on his mother's side." Well as they say nobody is perfect.
@JohnHughesChampigny4 жыл бұрын
He also didn't like the EM-2 because A) he thought automatic fire would be a waste of ammo and B) it wasn't heavy enough to hit people with. Getting a bit past it by then if you ask me.
@jonfox19194 жыл бұрын
Freaky. I was watching Forgotten Weapons videos specifically on the FAL and EM2 only yesterday! Today this video is posted, very cool 😎
@Atombender4 жыл бұрын
Fast forward 65 years: "The 5.56 x 45 is too small, let's run some tests using 6.5mm ammo to replace it! And make sure that it's all-American!"
@RockSolitude4 жыл бұрын
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine lol ok... Sound like a man after Studlers own heart...
@2Potates4 жыл бұрын
Except not they are going for a full power 6.8mm +p+ round.
@austinfontenot89554 жыл бұрын
Realistically we won't see a change in round until someone comes out with a super reliable and cheap telescoping round or polymer case. The issue isn't so much lethality...it's how much lethality you can carry. Technology is lifesaving and augments soldiers in today's world while making them more effective. It's also heavy. So how do you make sure you can carry more while not using a .22? Advancements in ammunition packaging.
@2Potates4 жыл бұрын
@@austinfontenot8955 I expect a polymer case. I've been looking into telescoped rounds long enough to know that the mechanical complexities with the guns aren't worth it. And by that i don't mean that the guns themselves are very complex, they are just hard to design as you have to reinvent everything that has already been figured out over the last 150 years. One reoccuring thing for example is that they would be very awkward to clear, and i've yet to see an elegant solution to that.
@dunadan71364 жыл бұрын
RockSolitude Let me know when you can get riflemen to consistently hit targets at 800m while shooting offhand, under stress and have to spot targets and operate the gun alone. Also do let me know if riflemen are actually capable of taking advantage of range overmatch, given that we know that rifle fire is only consistently effective out to 300m based on historical data due to the difficulties I’ve outlined above. Also do let me know how what you suggest is any better than simply issuing Mk 318/Mk 262 Mod 1 instead of M855, having more machine guns (which are fundamentally much more capable of long range combat than rifles) with trained machine gunners. Or even both. If anything, there should be a heavier emphasis on the machine gun elements of small infantry units rather than being hyperfocused on the rifle.
@alanhelgeson6902 жыл бұрын
I would really love to see DSA Arms manufacturer a F.N.-F.A.L. rifles in caliber .243 Win. And 7 mm-08 Rem caliber.
@mr.gunzaku4373 жыл бұрын
I wonder what the world would be like today if we had actually gone with the .280 cartridge...I like the FAL and CETME, but if I had one Western battle rifle, it would be the G3. Having it in .280 with a 30-round mag would be cool👍
@Jagdtyger2A2 жыл бұрын
The .280 British sounds a lot like our new 6.8x51 mm round in performance. I guess history has once again circled back
@jakobc.25582 жыл бұрын
Its has not cicled back, it has just taken 70 years for the U.S. to ordinance to cope with the realisation that they made a mistake.
@atfyoutubedivision955 Жыл бұрын
@@jakobc.2558 Even then it doesn't. The new 6.8 is closer to 7mm Remington mag then this.
@TheArklyte4 жыл бұрын
Europeans: design better rifle and better cartridge for NATO. Americans: repeatedly sabotage NATO while screaming about soviet spies and saboteur on american soil.
@MacMeaties4 жыл бұрын
And then adopt a bunch of weapons produced by European countries anyway... oh yeah and now they are evaluating a Swiss machine-gun in a Swedish calibre so...
@RunnJake3 ай бұрын
It's so funny how the US Ordnance department said that .280 was too small. Since then, Adopted .308 Adopted a .223 Adopted a .277 History is a giant circle I swear to god.
@jamiealcock1184 жыл бұрын
Britian: I've just invested this new bullpup assult rifle and a new cartridge which we should have and not be relient on any other countries. USA: I'm sorry i can't hear you over the sound of my 7.62 and we demand you adopt what we tell you. Britian *gritted teeth* fine. On a serious note didn't the czechslovakians have a simular problem with their guns and cartridges and the warsaw pact standerisation lead by the USSR.
@RockSolitude4 жыл бұрын
Basically, but it the USSR was more... well USSR about it, opposed to the American cheat, lie and be stubborn arm twisting "diplomacy".
@jamiealcock1184 жыл бұрын
@@RockSolitude basically usa more subtle ussr in your face
@LL-cz5ql4 жыл бұрын
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine good point
@TheSlovenlyTactician4 жыл бұрын
@@RockSolitude "opposed to the American cheat, lie and be stubborn arm twisting "diplomacy". " That is exactly how the USSR conducted diplomatic relations. See their unofficial occupation of Poland until 1993.
@Grandmaster-Kush4 жыл бұрын
US, Russian and EU all cut from the same cloth elites doing elite things
@jerryjohnsonii41814 жыл бұрын
Love me some FN FAL's. Thanks for showing this awesome .280 FAL , Gun Jesus !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@suneilkumar4 жыл бұрын
This is cool! Just finishing up building a STG58 FAL Para and I am blown away with the FAL design.
@theretrosaba78014 жыл бұрын
Yep just like EM-2
@robertotaglienti64063 жыл бұрын
Very solid weapon...never really took good care of mine but they never missed a beat. After firing the SLR and M60 on the range the M16 always felt like a novelty rifle.
@yank-tc8bz4 жыл бұрын
Wish they would show dummy ammo or at least photos of same.
@AtheistOrphan4 жыл бұрын
yank1776 - Yes, that would make it just that little bit more interesting. Good idea.
@devincook27364 жыл бұрын
Ian's blog post on this makes it sound like 7-08 Remington. Or 7mm based on t65 cartridge.. www.forgottenweapons.com/prototype-280-fal/
@charlesphillips45754 жыл бұрын
I have never seen why it was so important to standardise rifle cartridges, when we standardised little else. On tank guns, we developed our own 20pdr, then 105mm, then 120mm. Granted the 105mm became a NATO standard, but that was after we adopted it. For artillery, in addition to keeping many WW2 designs for decades, we developed our own 105mm which was not compatible with US 105mm ammunition. Aircraft and naval armament were also not standardised. A few guns got standardised by us buying foreign weapons, e.g. M109, but very little that we built was chambered for a standard round.
@blackwoodsecurity5314 жыл бұрын
Guns and ammo are very expensive when you manufacture them in the millions.
@charlesphillips45754 жыл бұрын
@@blackwoodsecurity531 True, but the larger weapons and ammunition were more expensive and heavier individually and still needed in large quantities. Also note that the smaller round we wanted would have used less raw materials and been easier to transport.
@mig1nc2 жыл бұрын
6.8x51 NGSW has entered the chat....
@willwallacetree4 жыл бұрын
Pendine is a really interesting place on the Welsh coast. Lots of history of early (and sometimes tragic) car land speed record attempts on the beaches there and the MOD and Qinetig still have large experimental ranges.
@Ben_not_104 жыл бұрын
So the Belgians and the brits has this wonderful intermediate cartridge but goddamn US Ordnance board threatened to take their toys and leave in a huff. I’m a damn proud American but I’m ashamed at the ineptness of this period in American firearms development.
@Leo___________4 жыл бұрын
What about the time you made the best, ground breaking, lever actions in the world, but instead they picked a wonky single shot rifle?
@Ben_not_104 жыл бұрын
Leo that’s congress’ fault. Can’t blame the American army for not having a repeater when they could barely afford enough to give five practice rounds a year.
@paulandsueroberts41214 жыл бұрын
Not for the first time nor the last.
@LL-cz5ql4 жыл бұрын
@cody sonnet as opposed to the bankers they fought for?
@ScottKenny19784 жыл бұрын
Yeah, about the only good thing mcnamara did when he was secdef was getting rid of BuOrd.
@gunner6784 жыл бұрын
Ahhh good old Pendine Sands, beautiful part of south West Wales coast! Warminster too, great memories. We had a fantastic weapon in our L1A1. Great video!
@MrOlgrumpy4 жыл бұрын
So we've come full circle,NOW 6.8 [270] is the correct mil calibre which has been as plain as the nose on a face.The Scandinavians had this sussed 120 years ago 6.5 x 55
@neutronalchemist32414 жыл бұрын
The Italians 129 Years ago, 6.5X52.
@Lord.Kiltridge4 жыл бұрын
The REAL American objection was that they had a HUGE stockpile of .308 and they wanted to use and export them. Frankly, having used the FN C1A1 and FN C2A1, the Americans should have been told to suck it.
@yvesgerard13084 жыл бұрын
une arme magnifique ! surtout avec la " longuesse " en bois strié ...il fut un temps où le look d' une arme était raffiné , profilé . Aujourd' hui seule importe la fonctionalité au détriment de a beauté . Heureux le possesseur d' un tel bijou !
@MrWarwick154 жыл бұрын
Thanks Ian! Always nice to see a FAL on the bench. Rich.
@chironchangnoi4 жыл бұрын
I look forward to every new video you put out, Ian. Thank you, this as great stuff.
@johnparrish92154 жыл бұрын
Damn, they would have loved the AR15 in 6.5 Grendel. I know I do.
@johnparrish92154 жыл бұрын
@Flat Bastard Engineering Channel All the Brits would have to say is: Your not good enough, you can't have it. We Americans would been all over it.
@troy94774 жыл бұрын
Always had a soft spot for FAL's with wood furniture. They seem historical. Speaking of that, thanks for all the history background. I am familiar with it, but most people are not. I have researched the 280 British before, in part due to your old videos on the EM-2. I also ran across the 7x49mm (Liviano) made by FN for Venezuela in FN-49's with detachable mags. With all the talk of US mil going to a 6.5 or 6.8mm (.270) round, i have advocated the following on some forums: Basically a reinvention/reimagining of the 280. Plan on a 120 or 130 gr bullet at 2400-2500 fps. This could probably be done with a case length of 40-42mm, so it is significantly shorter and lighter than 7.62x51/308. Use an efficient case shape and shoulder angle. Should be quite doable with modern powders. Ballistics are similar to the 30-30, (a tad faster than its 150 gr loads) with an efficient, aerodynamic 7mm spitzer bullet. Those are among the best shapes (7mm-08 has better retained energy than 308 starting at about 400 yards, and a slightly better trajectory). You can use a twist rate that will allow the bullet to tumble after hitting, like the original 55 gr 5.56 load (i will guesstimate a twist rate of 1:10 or 1:12, but a ballistics lab would experiment to make sure). Recoil will be fairly light, probably less than a 150 gr 30-30. The cartridge would meet or exceed all intermediate cartridge performance goals. It should also make a nice cartridge for deer, antelope, and hogs. A bokt action rifle coukd be relatively lightweight, and you would only need 18-20" of barrel. It would probably beat the 350 Legend for a light recoiling round for newer shooters, with flatter trajectory and a better effective range. Not a new idea, i certainly didn't invent it, just a few twists on the old idea. Everything old is new again. Anyway, my 2 cents and ramblings, FWIW. Great video as always. I love my M-1A, but we should have gotten the FAL
@robertcaron51974 жыл бұрын
hey look the fallout 3 assault rifle that's cool af that it was an actual gun
@rowdyboyzcentral30024 жыл бұрын
The fallout 3 rifle is an H&K g3
@LuciFeric1374 жыл бұрын
Thanks Ian. I like your in depth historical treatments. Very interesting.
@joshuaarroyo72354 жыл бұрын
Still looks like an FAL so it still good in my book.
@Speetqq4 жыл бұрын
Please more history i could listen this all day
@alexandermarinin70364 жыл бұрын
Too bad that .270 British is so unknown. Probably the best intermediate cartridge for next 50 years.
@zanzabar532 жыл бұрын
I never skipped forward! The history of the weapons is why I'm here!!!
@davidreinhart3734 жыл бұрын
So this is just a better FAL that normal FAL :D Uses better cartridge, magazine and does have only one gas setting.
@johnreed35762 жыл бұрын
Ian Royal armouries 280. FAL Perfect vid!
@alimaleki63164 жыл бұрын
one does not simply fast forward Ian talking
@StrangerOman4 жыл бұрын
Great story. And nice looking rifle. Extended stories about guns is always appreciated. :)
@Furiereindulgente4 жыл бұрын
THIS IS IT.
@claudiovillani55384 жыл бұрын
Great video! Thanks, im waiting for a special video on all Belgian FAL in .308. My dad will love it, in my family we are special fan for Belgian FAL
@Matt_The_Hugenot4 жыл бұрын
Churchill unadopted the EM-2 for political reasons, he fundamentally misjudged the nature of the Anglo-American relationship and thought if he compromised on the rifle and cartridge, amongst other things, then Truman and Acheson would compromise on others. He was sadly deluded about Britain's place in the world.
@artemis_smith4 жыл бұрын
Well, more deluded about Britain's place in the American worldview, but I guess that's a bit pedantic. And honestly, from what I've seen on Forgotten Weapons, the US military basically bullied the rest of NATO into doing what they said.
@MostlyPennyCat4 жыл бұрын
As opposed to today where they... er...
@burlatsdemontaigne61474 жыл бұрын
zoiders _____ Err.... no. Different part of town. Ask me how I know?
@thetooner82034 жыл бұрын
Churchill may have been deluded about Truman's and Acheson's places in the U.S. ordnance hierarchy.
@Matt_The_Hugenot4 жыл бұрын
@@thetooner8203 Quite possibly. Churchill frequently interfered in decisions about which he knew little and had no business getting involved. Leaders tend to assume that their opposite numbers are just like them and Churchill may well have thought that Truman, as commander in chief, could and would tell ordnance what to do.
@davidhansen50674 жыл бұрын
Love the history lessons! I'm absolutely not skipping forward past them.
@DevilbyMoonlight4 жыл бұрын
Very interesting... I always wondered if the .280 was actually a viable cartridge.. and if so what happened to it...
@SlavicCelery4 жыл бұрын
Nope.
@SlavicCelery4 жыл бұрын
It's not an intermediate; it's splitting the difference between 6.5 and 7.7 Japanese. It weighs too much to function like a standard small, high velocity caliber intermediate round. Basically not a high ammo carrying benefit. And not powerful enough for a GPMG round. Sooo....appealing when talking about Afghanistan. But in every other environment...too much and not enough?
@evandotterer43654 жыл бұрын
Love the look of the early FALs the dark wood grain is gorgeous
@-OokySpooky-4 жыл бұрын
Gun Jesus: 11:11 minutes of pure unadulterated history of every turning cog in the clock of spacetime leading up to the development of this object including names, dates, ideologies, and things that couldve come to pass but didnt. Flannel Daddy: She's uhh... She's a hefty bitch.
@jasoncarswell74584 жыл бұрын
you're a strange fella
@santifresnel23204 жыл бұрын
your channel is GOLD. Thank you for your work. We love you. And holly molly do you know your stuff.
@moosemaimer4 жыл бұрын
this here's mah cousin Harvey Earle, this here's mah other cousin Earle Harvey
@bigmikeh58273 жыл бұрын
Great presentation GJ. Thank you for sharing
@connorbutters84794 жыл бұрын
the americans were afraid of their soldiers missing their targets so they adopted a larger, less accurate cartridge with more recoil. sounds about right
@Maeyanie4 жыл бұрын
It does sound very American.
@TJH14 жыл бұрын
EXACTLY the sort of content I come here for, bravo!
@namyun27434 жыл бұрын
.270 British or Bust!!!
@MostlyPennyCat4 жыл бұрын
They're now trialling 6-7mm high velocity rounds. Only 75 years late.
@MostlyPennyCat4 жыл бұрын
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Probably not. But it does included CT stuff and plastic rounds. They've got CT 40mm cannons now, so maybe?
@namyun27434 жыл бұрын
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Who knows? They've been repeatedly trialing 6-7mm rounds for over 15 years now.
@namyun27434 жыл бұрын
@@slaughterround643 The more development I see on the 6.Xmm cartridge front, the more I see the validity of the .270 British round. The closest commercially available cartridge right now is the 6.8 SPC with the SIX5 Gremlin being an even closer, spiritual successor that could fit into a STANAG magwell.
@workingguy66664 жыл бұрын
Awesome history lesson, Ian.
@scoe59084 жыл бұрын
Who else watched this before it was published?
@kenhelmers26034 жыл бұрын
Thanks Ian!
@chlebowg4 жыл бұрын
.280 HV sounds like the 7-08mm cartridge :)
@Garrumx4 жыл бұрын
Exactly what I was thinking. But from the way the .280 gets talked about, it makes me think that it had a shorter case, since it was apparently overpressure to reach those velocities.
@prestonmonaghan4994 жыл бұрын
The case was 1.5 inches long. Later increased to 1.74 inches. The diameter was 0.473. I think.
@garnel664 жыл бұрын
There was reports from the Falklands conflict in that British soldiers changed their FNs semi auto for Argentina’s full auto FNs. The brits found on full auto totally uncontrollable, and the 20 mag was just too small. However they enjoyed letting of lead but never used in combat on full auto. 👍👍👍