The PUG Journey - Challenges and Difficulties

[@kubba007]

Ah you think pug is your ally? You merely adopted the pug. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see a guild until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but binding.

[@kylemsibley]

**slow clap**

[@jeremybirch5233]

Where's Balderino Kripperino when you need him

[@darkiest123456]

my god that was brilliant infinity/10 fucking love it man

[@hourglassrewrite]

SOMETHING'S NOT QUITE RIGHT

[@Detinator247]

Noxava the ending was perfect

[@DrCaesars]

I've been kicked as a Disc Priest by a tank not holding aggro (how?) for DPSing instead of healing... Pugs are great.

[@darkzavulon]

DrCaesarsPalace MD oh yeah, happens all the time on my disc. I usually just link them the healing meter, and ask why they are healing instead of tanking.

[@spookypoes4788]

That's hilarious

[@Psycoholic2008]

Vengence Demon Hunter here, I don't even fucking notice my Heals. Rather have DPS, you aren't going to heal me too much more than I already am myself.

[@zeng58]

Lol xD that’s hilarious made my whole night

[@tardwrangler]

All my life I have lived by the pug. I've seen noobs burn, and watched brave tanks die in vain. It's been difficult for me to trust after dying so much. But from you I have learned patience, tolerance, and faith. Preach, I now believe as you do, that properly run guilds are the noblest aspiration. But to preserve it, you must be willing to fight!

[@Lencrenoire1]

That very awkward moment you get kicked because you are trying to explain a fight. Man, has happened to me so many times.

[@BandittR6]

Happened to me a week or two ago in Kara. Group had some bum healer who clearly didn't know any of the fights. We wiped first attempt on almost every boss since no one was explaining fights to him. So I took it upon myself to help the guy out for his sake and ours. We wiped on Mana Devourer due to losing a dps and all the sudden I got kicked. I looked at recount, overall I was last on healing taken, had almost twice as much damage as the next highest dps and was clearly the only one in the group who knew the fights well. Never raged at anyone or anything, in fact the only time I chatted was to explain mechanics. There's some very "special" people out there running pugs.

[@calamaribeard4731]

if i joined a kara pug and they wiped on first boss i would be fucking outta there so quick they would think i was fucking abducted by a UFO. idk i think those nubs actually did you a favor.

[@saitouhajime3]

Calamari Beard I mean, there are some people who wanna learn. Then there are people who wanna get their stuff done quick. Not everyone has mastered their class before they que or join groups

[@pokeyerface]

BandittR6 they're probably feminists or liberal mangina cucks....

[@mikekgasda]

Could you make a video on running and organizing a guild ? Would love to hear your thoughts on the proper way to construct and mange one

[@Relbl]

Totally would like this, because it's so 'disagreeable' trying to find a good guild, i'd rather just set up my own at this point...

[@OMFGcataFAN1]

good luck, if you're not an extremely talented player your self to attract other people to your guild, likely you wont find any "good" players that'll stick around. or at least youll have those 5-7 people who arent really that good but you need to fill the roster.

[@Aj9Livess]

Mike Walters check out some of brutallstatics older vids. he's got a series called life of a guild leader :D

[@MinecraftAbomination]

yeah same, preach said he was a really good raid leader, officer ect but he doesnt wanna be in that position

[@Rainy333]

As a former guild and raid leader, I can't understand why anyone would seek it out :p It was full time work, no good people to help me out as officers, I had to do everything myself. The guild died twice (once before I was made GM) and I revived it again. In the end I was so sick of it that I just merged with another guild and went back to being a normal member. But different strokes for different folks I guess. Someone has to lead guilds, not everyone can be lazy like me :D

[@TheNBAzzAN]

Really appreciated this video preach. Did some mythic plus at the start but haven't for a while. This video made me want to revisit them and get stuck back in

[@JackyZee]

Thanks so much for this video. I'm one of those people who just hit mythic 0 and started questioning my skills because everything is so terrible in there. It's giving me flashbacks to Cata heroics right after launch when everyone had to get used to healers no longer having infinite mana. Back then it got so bad I quit WoW. Thanks to this I'll grit my teeth and stick it out now that I know it gets better and I'll try to find a decent guild in the meantime. Again, thank you so, so much.

[@vitsavicky]

Here's the main problem with "people": They are scared of trying stuff. Don't be, when I first tried to tank back in Vanilla on my Druid (yes, on a Druid) I crashed and burned and it was spectacular, but I didn't hesitate. The worst thing that can happen is literally nothing. Failing is fine, not trying in the first place is not. So go forth and do crazy shit and try stuff. :)

[@darylsdog9521]

Feral was ok

[@StormsparkPegasus]

The healer always gets the blame in pugs if things go wrong. I got kicked from a timewalking dungeon on my holy paladin alt about a year ago. The "tank" was a ret paladin, and of course mobs were just running everywhere and smacking everyone. Noone even batted an eye at a ret paladin trying to tank, and just kicked the healer instead. I wouldn't say I'm Method material or anything like that, but I consistently get told in both heroic and mythic that my main (which is a resto shaman) is one of the best healers they've seen.

[@dime4026]

Akaihiryuu77 a year ago? it still burns you a year later?

[@dime4026]

Akaihiryuu77 a year ago? it still burns you a year later?

[@StormsparkPegasus]

No, not particularly. I just remember it, and felt it was appropriate to mention since that sort of thing is kind of the subject of this video.

[@Dunao]

to be honest i like going dungeons without a tank. we go some mythics and m+ (without affixes) with our mage tanking. it started as agag since he got his legendary stuff where he gets a shield after blinking and ranking 98%+ in hps for almost every fight. its bretty fun going mythics with 4 dps^^

[@ianhorne9594]

Ohhh trust me, when you get kicked from a group for stupid shit, You'd remember that xD

[@sc0p0art]

THIS! Thank you man, the existence of different demographics within WoW left me quite stranded as an all out noob. This helped immensely.

[@Mojomoud]

A friend of mine from high school said it best: Doing PUG's in MMO's is like being taken to the ghetto without your knowledge. You don't know what's gonna happen, but it's guaranteed to be ridiculous.

[@geeleeggan]

you nail things pretty well. When I've gotten over myself and my own overblown ideas about how hard things might be or how mean/rude people are (which they can be, and part of this comes from constantly being turned down when trying to get into groups), SO I've started my own group/queue for mythic 0s and they've actually turned out well both as tank and as dps. The one thing I dislike is is that it forming a group can take a HUGE amount of time. When you get right down to it, it's that time drag that's the biggest thing to overcome

[@scottk.9566]

Great video, great content, great perspective. Keep up the good work.

[@KakaowyKruk]

"Mythic +7 are so chill" 3 years later : "Mythic +7 are the worst thing possible. Avoid any group below +10"

[@MattZeeX]

Part of it is because they changed how the chests worked, plus tyran/fort being moved to +2, also due to the removal of titanforging.

[@ryanexsus]

I couldn't pay attention to anything Preach was saying because I was trying to figure out how to understand that healthbar addon.

[@SalvLav]

Its just party frames with mouseover macros?

[@aroix2667]

nop look closely at what happen to the bar when he heals

[@nathanjohnson6653]

It kinda feels like it's the opposite of what it should be 😂

[@spirospandis975]

I like that you mention the "real casuals" in mythic +2,7 best casual fun ive had in years of playing wow!

[@juanchosho]

Hi Preach. Thank you for this video. I was a little scared for going mythic but gave it a try and foud that it's pretty good.

[@zach6395]

Everytime I see a video that has that tune playing at the start, I know it's gonna be an awesome video

[@amartin7269]

I just stared with Legion and doing this quest line has had me just shut the game down. It has been by far the worst experience I have had in the game. I have looked for guilds since I started watching your videos a few months ago. But haven't had any luck so far. Great video thank you for it.

[@XemnasKH]

Tony Martin "this quest line" way to be specific with your criticism of the game

[@amartin7269]

the quest line was the one Preacher was talking about. The Mythic quest line. I still play every day, way to much even. . The expedience I have had doing PUG mythic s is just what he is talking about absolutely horrid.

[@Yipsilon1]

great video😀 exactly what happened to me, been playing since Legion day one and I never tried a MD yet -.-" when u tell others that u haven't done one yet, automatically out -.-" but yeah I'll definitely try again thank you for the video

[@filiplindalv5033]

Really enjoy your videos Preacher! Keep up the good work :)

[@TheFromaster24]

I just started wow back up after taking a 2 month break and did a random heroic on my rogue and got kicked almost immediately, like right after the first trash pull. I was confused until one of the guys from the group, the demon hunter, whispered me saying "sub fag reroll life" and I just sat there dazed, just wondering what the hell had just happened. Apparently, being in a sub optimal spec is enough to trigger people into kicking you from groups now, not gonna stop me from playing what I want though.

[@michaelyun2407]

I don't really care what spec ppl is in. Is just heroic. Heroic is like regular lol.

[@Frost_Saber]

I would call that incredible bad luck, I played frost dk(lowest on sims) at the start of legion and was never kicked like that, altho getting groups for mythics was harder than it should have been.

[@TheFromaster24]

KorrupttWolF Yeah, even before I took a break I couldn't find any mythic groups that wanted me, even when I was playing outlaw or assassination specs.

[@faelirra]

Good, don't let anyone tell you what spec to play. These people just look at the sims (or what the top players play) and think it is gospel for everyone when it isn't. Play what you think is fun and fuck those that tell you otherwise.

[@Craftee6]

Fun fact, sub is actually best rogue spec in endgame. It requires good legendaries, high gear and perfect stats on it to outperform assa, but it does eventually. #KorrupttWolF Dk frost wasn't even lowest on sims in legion, it used to be really low but never lower then survi hunter. Btw, dk is still the worst dps class in the game (on top level), but it's much closer to the pack now, and it's getting some buffs too.

[@TheScarecrow78]

TY for this video. It rlly is very insightful and explains a lot.

[@captaincokecan]

I got kicked the other day for advising the paladin that he he could have simply moved from the fire rather than bubbling.

[@deathbower]

Reminds me of the mages I raid lead on Mythic Fel Reaver in HFC - they would pop evanescence and IB instead of moving out of barrage. Good for optimising DPS on farm. Not good for optimising survivability on a progression boss with a comfortable enrage timer >.

[@grumpyoldwizard]

Well thought out. Thank you for your hard work.

[@szebasztianpolyakovity4301]

i play for almost 10 years now,but now i have a baby and a lot of hours at work so yeah,i do M+ and got back to tanking thx to the inspiration of your series :) no time,gearing is slow,but at least i nejoy the game what i love :D

[@RM-nf5eq]

No-one is going to bring up the on-point sleeve game he has going on in the intro! Keep being a baller!

[@kerenton5897]

3:56 Preach, giving really good gear for low level content just makes other content obsolete. It's not a one dimensional argument "its too hard so necessary for people". Free gear is the catalyst for content drought and making content feel unrewarding psychologically (Casino rng rewards now to replicate). Preach, you know this is true - or you would have never made those videos back in MOP regarding it.

[@zalwow9363]

Are you sure you got kicked? It happens during reset time when you're in a random heroic and you'll get the message "You have been removed from the group" even though it was because of reset.

[@stevewalker6340]

I've been gearing up a few fresh 110 alts. I totally agree about everything you said about PUG mythic0, so many bad, horrible people in there.

[@lardus8614]

Great video Preach - sent to some guildies to see if we can get over our fears and do this. Got my warrior to 867 but Pugs don't want my Arms, only my Prot :( I was once kicked from random dungeon in Legion on my Fire mage (normal Neltharions). My DPS was lower than the others, true, but I was also 3-5 levels below them. I was kicked even though my DPS was passable for my gear level. Not perfect, but passable and there were no issues as the first boss went down easily. Then I was kicked for "low dps". They did not notice the healer was in the same guild, so on the next pull he left the group as well, abandoning them to their fate (I don't necessarily agree with this though). Look, if I mess up, or my DPS is too low, kick me, fine. But tell me why I am being kicked, so I can improve. I also thought my WoW bugged out until the guildy moaned in Discord about it. Hope it is a great year for us all!

[@MoudiWoW]

this is the first expansion I havent done anything with pugs and will not do. But ofc. if you are not in a guild or with friends, its the only option.

[@masterface6257]

True, boosted a guildy alt the other day healing through a pug M0, pain in the ass, loads of damage taken constantly, there was a monk who seemed to be finding new ways to take dmg. Hard work.

[@katzenpommes9325]

Around 13:30 what he says. thank you preach. I always thought i was shit because the same thing happened to me. I sometimes just went " well i never saw that before" and i felt like a newb. Thank you for letting me know that that happenens even to you

[@strepp11]

I had no idea! So far i only did +0 and +10-16 each week and it was getting harder and harder to keep doing it every single week since it never got any easier. But after watching this video today i tried a few runs on 1 affix and it was such a huge difference!! No one raged at every mistake and no one tried to rush the tank for no good reason, it was simply a new experience that seem to take this pent up tiredness and just blew it all away.

[@CALISUPERSPORT]

You talked about guildless players. I'm effectively guildless. A casual who enjoys random battlegrounds & just the PUG,LFR life to experience the lore. Plus I'll just explore the world for some nostalgia. definitely the difference between me and highly skilled PvE players is that I always learn through basic & avoidable mistakes, rather than studying mechanics (or even glancing at them).

[@johnhandyside1252]

thank you preach, I am an avid player who hit that mythic zero wall and started leveling alts my main is 870, and I just don't see the point of dealing with the people in mythic 0 but this may inspire me to try again

[@kalaintyrandis6707]

I also noticed the mythic 0 barrier. People are essentially broadsided by how punitive different pull mechanics are. They've never had to pay attention to them before.

[@punishmentdue73]

This makes so much sense! I thought that I was crazy for preferring mythic 4 or higher because it seemed easier than norm mythic to +3

[@TraxisOnTheLines]

The time of day matters as well. Me and a friend were running groups in the early morning (3am to 6am EST, US servers), and everyone was terrible. Running 2-7 is normally, like you said, the sweet spot. We had a 5 where the 2 PuG dps combined did about 250k dps,, and another 6 where the tank didn't use defensives and just died immediately when he mass pulled (which he did without anyone asking, despite us not wanting it). We talked to our guild about it, and they agree that they get the same thing. Early morning PuGs are a lot worse. Midday pugs is fantastic though, no complaints :)

[@YourTechGerman]

You know what Preach, you nailed it on this one. I've had the same experience and mythic 2 - 7 really is the nicest... also i'm a filthy casual that can't afford to raid 2-3 times a week from 9-12pm

[@welshman100]

I joined a random hc in progress on my shaman healer, i was oom within 10min on trash (874 ilvl at the time). i asked for a mana break. which was first time since wrath or cata i think. and thats when i found out via /w that i was the 3rd healer they had gone thru. and i was given shit for taking a mana break. i left the dungeon at that point. ive been without wow for a month and a half now, feeeels good.

[@dommguard]

That last sentence seems like you blame the players' idiocy on the game. Don't do that.

[@welshman100]

I blame it on a lot of things really, namely the game itself and my willingness to keep playing the game long after I really should have stopped.

[@Generalizedfeelings]

I got kicked from HoV heroic on my mage because the group was killing EVERYTHING in the realm with Fenrir in it. I ran to the portal, invis'd and waited for them. Good lord.

[@ithila6712]

Generalizedfeelings yup...ive been kicked from heroics when i was the tank because someones friend came online and wanted a certain piece of gear that drops..i no longer will do pugs. Ever.

[@seanhoff]

On the opposite end, I've kicked people for pulling the whole realm at Fenryr xD

[@Craftee6]

I kicked people when they can't do 100k dps st in 815 gear required to join heroic as i could break it on some classes during levelling (like rogue or fire mage). That just means they are slacking, not even bothering to press button.

[@calamaribeard4731]

you just follow and stay with them but don't attack anything, if anyone says anything just wait another 5 or 10 seconds and say, man these lagg spikes are fucked!!

[@Crogatho]

I've never been kicked as a tank. Never. But the reason you were kicked is so sour, tough luck man :P

[@southpaw2471]

What I've learned healing heroic dungeons: Know the major defensives for tanks. A lot of people don't know they should be using that stuff (especially DH and Pain Spikes or whatever that's called for whatever reason). If I see my tank taking a shitload of damage, I just whisper and ask if they're using their basic AM skills. Usually fixes the problem. It's easy to forget a lot of people running heroics, especially post Christmas, are new and super nooby.

[@aleksdzans]

In regards to your comment on base Mythics not attracting any geared players - I'm 885 and I still do M0 every week, it's a lot of gear to disenchant into mats, lots of Bloods for Alchemy pots, and it's a much higher chance for legendaries than M+, in fact I very regularly find Mythic 0 groups with high ilvl requirements that do exactly the same thing as I every single week.

[@TK_GX]

880+ requirements for mythic 0 pug. how pathetic this game has become

[@DangermuffinVideos]

My general mythic+ pugging experience: Get a nice kind group with good ilvl, start your own keystone, dungeon goes fine, then one member randomly dcs/leaves for diner.

[@RockOnBuckethead]

Preach, I'm a self proclaimed PUG All star and yet I can't even get into mythic 0 groups. I'm an 861 fury warrior. I am a veteran raid leader (started in bc), have lead guilds, have done high end progression on WoW and other MMOs, have fulfilled every part of the triangle in all the games I play, have played every class and every spec on WoW. I can't sit down and play with a group because of my career. The extent of me being able to play mythic 0 is just from getting lucky with groups and playing with my RL friends who get the opportunity to be raiders. If I do manage to get into a group it runs smoothly. I can guide bad healers, bad dps and bad tanks but JUST GETTING INTO IT is all but impossible. I like DK tank and I leveled one and still had the same problem. I leveled a healer, still had the same problem. I even tried to tank on my warrior despite absolutely hating warrior tank right now. Cannot even get into mythics right now. This has been going on for about 2 weeks now. I am dumbstruck.

[@ianhorne9594]

If you're a tank, your best option would be just to host a mythic+0

[@Gaz1990]

^^ Hosting mate. Cartoonz suggested it in a video and it changed my life.

[@niklasstahl98]

Just create a group for your keystone, name it "+2 my key, chill run" or something like that, and it will fill within a minute

[@BindingOfDoh]

I have run m+0 CoS every week since its release as a Paladin Healer because of Jewel Crafting. I finally had the rank 3 neck drop...Jewel Crafting is one of the toughest challenges I've faced in Legion.

[@kryogengaming3772]

Here is why I could offer the best no biased opinion ever. I come from private servers played a legion one loved it started retail about 7 days ago yesterday I did my first 4 mythic 0 which was MoS EoA VH and DHT all of them went really smoothly. I will add I started all my own groups on the premade as getting into others is just not going to work with 860 requirements when I'm only at 840 now. I then took my first ever mythic +2 BRH hadn't even done it on normal. It was a mess the damage I found was insane we spent 5 minutes on the opening mob pack because I couldn't get my group to learn you need to CC out the healer mob and dps the others. Then went HoF mythic 0 and found just speaking to people telling them who to cc worked nicely and it went well. A few wipes because the damage was incredible like the jump from Hc to mythic 0 baffled me. Finally called it on odyn as it was to much for people. But what I learned was that trying to start out is the problem I'm late into legion and I can feel the affects of it hard. But because no one wants me I've learned how to just get out there and make my own groups. And for that it's going okay.

[@bearaugz]

puged out my wow life, first time in a raid guild this xpac and love et . nice vid man

[@Strrroke]

Last time I was kicked from a group as a healer was when I asked the tank not to be a complete idiot. Guess it was too much to ask.

[@madtrade]

man i feel your pain... when i was a undergeared healer you always find a overgeared tank who believe he can take all the instance because 'lol heroic' yet there is damage on all the raid x4 and we die...

[@Frost_Saber]

Well you only have yourself to blame man, everyone knows you need to have much better gear than the content you're trying to do. How dare you try to progress normally!

[@youtubedeletedmynamewhybother]

+KorrupttWolF this is actually true with healing.... You have to be overgeared or you will not be having fun at all.

[@ryantwomey3463]

Yeah I used to have a Kara group in the first three weeks but my group doesn't run it anymore because most of us have what we want sans titan forging like we have nightbanemount and gear from him we need so most of the time my group doesn't do Kara anymore so I have had to pug which Is fine because as a well geared druid tank I can carry a bit and I still do Kara because I just love the instance

[@PaulaJBean]

Some interpunction would be nice.

[@adanos4]

So i have 834 item lvl, so i tree doing mythic 0 ? Most of the groups that doing mythic plus require 850/860 item lvl, that is insane, gap i cannot close. I hate lfr with the passion, so i am not going there. So what are my options, should i stick with world quests ? They getting borring if you do them everyday, everyone of them. I prefered to do something more challenging from time to time, so i wanted to do mythic 0, but then i started to hit people like that. Any suggestions for me ?

[@Justforfun669]

Try creating groups via the group finder yourself. There might be many others that are having your problem aswell

[@meanieangrysson5366]

worlquests, make your own groups. And as preach says be in a guild, we constantly boost alts and socials from newly dinged till full hc gear

[@OMFGcataFAN1]

i mean i havent really done anything except world quests and im currently 864 ilvl.

[@adanos4]

Should i use 'find the guild tool'. After wrath and cata, my friends stoped playing the game, so i need to make new friends, the best way to do it, is doing mythic's. I am kinda getting borred of doing only world quests and one/two heroics per day. Want to do something more challenging.

[@meanieangrysson5366]

+Adanos well I dont know If its just me being extremely social. But I just talk to ppl doing wq, daily heroics and make friends. tradechat spam s aswell, forums and wowprogress is also great ways to find a guild.

[@friggasring]

At 26:48 and 27:15 that boomkin runs in and pulls more trash with at least three mobs already pulled. Maybe he thought he queued for Mythic 2 as well? :D

[@Kurraga]

The biggest wall for me in Pugging dungeons is probably finding a group that will finish a +10. I just got one done today (about 6 minutes over the timer) after my 5 or so previous 10/11 attempts failed for various reasons. Even finding a group for +10s is hard enough (undstandable since most people don't really want to PuG them) A lot of challenge in doing also came from having to learn what the boss abilities actually did, because in lower difficulties the mechanics can usually be ignored because they either won't do serious damage or the boss will die before they become a problem. Most groups I joined weren't really in the mindset of trying to learn how to do the bosses either, and because it only takes 1 person leaving to ruin the run, I'd have at least 1 person leave after 1 or 2 wipes even in groups that are "weekly chest"/"Just looking to finish". The lower level groups are generally much more worthwhile to do because I can get into a 2 chest +9 much easier than a 1 chest +10, so I get better rewards with less effort clearing and getting into the dungeon. Most people are comfortable pugging a 3 chest group because even if the group fails to do what they set out to do, the keystone holder still most likely gets an upgraded keystone and you probably get 2 chests unless the people are really bad, which means groups like that are much more common. Great if that's what you're trying to do, but it makes things really hard for people trying to do stuff at the 1-chest level for lower keystones like 5-7.

[@Agati192]

My roommate plays wow as a casual, and the thing you said in the prev vid about not being able to queue is a barrier is so true. He was asking me when mythic dung would come to the queue like heroic because he had quests there (he thought it would come soon, like lfr a week or two after its released. I told him he had to find a group. He honestly didnt know about how to do it. I also thing two other big barriers atm is +10 because of the 3rd affix. There are so many people who have done a +10 in the past and get scared because of that 3rd affix. Its kinda anoying tbh, because you are in groups you know can do it, but they rather not try, incase their key get depleted. Then there is the +13 or above. Simply because most people dont care about pushing keys high, because there is no loot gain. Myself and some others in my guild really like doing high lvl mythic keystones, pushing them as high as we can, trying to tailor the group to the dungeon to push it futher. And I would say this content is way harder than mythic EN, but not as hard as some mythic ToV content. But the loot just in not there, and its really frustrating when you have to hope you get a good titenforged proc.

[@TheCoDzillaPlayer]

I am one of those +2 - +7 guys that raid some normal and pug HC every now and then. And I think youre right.

[@Monkcare]

i found as a healer the worst experiences are in mythic+2-5, if things don't go extremely well, if dps isn't enough, people will start leaving or start cursing and bashing at others

[@coycen]

when i rerolled from DH to DK i actually thought to myself: hey mythics are pretty easy up to like 9+ so doing the 0s shouldn't be a problem at all. i did eye of azshara with noobs and i knew it so i explained them the bosses and what they should do but they just straight out refused to do anything i told them. i even begged at some point to just do it right. we never beat the last boss and i left without saying anything and asked my friends to just take my DK with them. thankfully enough they did it aslong as i kept joining higher level mythics with my DH. was BY FAR the worst experience i ever had in mythics and i never did it ever again with randoms

[@CrystalblueMage]

I my view, the biggest issue is between having good or below average dps along. A group where everything takes longer, is a group with more chances to fail during each and every fight. At times, random people can indeed be a better choice than three friends as dps, which is sad.

[@chrthdestr]

I still do Standard Mythic dungeons for legendary chances honestly, and bloods of sargeras. Maybe it's not worth the time sink, but I mean I do it when I'm alt-tabbed usually and just get it done slowly over the course of the week. For actual grinding, I just get my farming team together for Maw of Souls: 4-9 or 4-12 depending on the group make-up.

[@LesbianWitchAcademia]

Preacher, my main is a Hunter, BM, and I'm sitting at 860 with all of my major traits. Getting to around 855ish was fairly easy, but now I find it impossible to ever get into any Mythic +'s at all. the highest I can ever get into are 3s. i spend roughly 45 minutes on my main every day just trying to get into a fucking group. I pull really good DPS, and I know what I'm doing with my spec. what am I doing wrong?

[@Fr0mN07h1n9]

860 to 870 was pretty hard for me, I almost always had to round out most of my gear obtained from that week from pug heroic ENs which seem to be a bit more stable for people LFG at 860. 870 to 880 is also starting to look like hell for similar reasons, but not as bad I suppose.

[@spunkin49]

absolutely nothing, I used to play a WW monk but switched to BM because nobody would ever accept me into groups, despite knowing all the fights and putting out good dps :(

[@ghostfacedninja1000]

Something that may not have become so apparent to preach whilst doing this series on his tank and healer. Life as a DPS in the group finder is much tougher, and you can only reliably get into groups by grossly over gearing them. My advice would be: Try to get into some heroic EN. A bit of patient pugging should see you, failing that, as preach says a raiding guild offers a lot of benefits with this. Try to find boost groups for your key, this basically depends on which dungeon you get, best is maw. But groups for other places exist too. One week when I was roughly ilevel 850 I got +2 maw, then +5 DHT, then +8 Maw. All of which it was really easy to find boost groups for. Keep running those low pluses as hard as you can. Hope for some decent titan forges. Also be on the look out for people wanting to do the key they get for completing one of those. If you do well as you say, they are likely to keep you in for that as well. Even if you do not raid, try to find a guild. All raiding guilds are spamming plusses and will prefer to take guildies if they can. If as you say you do well, that will be remembered and before long people will be asking you specifically to join groups.

[@wicwambam]

Did same on my low geared priest, 1 mythic0 for WQ, which meant higher geared ppl were up for it - followed by BRH+2 and MoS+5 and the hit the brick wall HoV +8 -.-

[@darthenx2585]

wicwambam Yea am stuck at 862 with +2 or +3 on a shadow priest. I have high gear in my bank with shitty stats

[@jrobpaqthe2nd]

Preach nailed why I love mythic+. +2 to +6 are my zone. I've had plenty of +1's fall apart at the drop of a hat, but these are overwhelmingly successful, full of casual (casual =/= shit) fun people.

[@GamingNormaly]

So much I agree on in this video. First I want to really "put on it" that yeah, many people draw the line at where they don't want to progress. To me that was Mythic EN which after a few bosses ( 2 or 3 weeks I can't really remember) just felt like time wasted. Heroic EN was too easy for my group but Heroic ToV was perfect! One to 4 wipes on Odyn and Helya every week just to keep the guild inside memes and joyfull jokes alive. Heroic ToV Perfect, Mythic EN pain in the ars. The thing about Mythic dungeons getting easier above mythic 0, YEAH. Holy shit that so true. Plain mythic are full of people who doesn't really want to be there while mythic+ is a whole other story, people want to gear, want to give their best (even in the lower m+ I still see CC rotations and cooldowns on packs) and its as you pointed out "night and day". Karazan groups: Me and my guild did it on time group after group (also alt runs) the first 3 weeks....now it's just not rewarding any more and I think our main fury warrior is the only one chasing 1 or 2 items in there. (Also the fury warrior is THAT guy, get turned on by loot and such)

[@Warcanz]

My experience so far with guilds is, i either find a raid team i don't mesh well with (little to no interaction) or a guild i freakin' love that only has few raiders and has to either pug or join another struggling guilds half finished raid. This has been one factor to my leaving legion, another would be is i picked the wrong spec that wasn't even found out was the bad spec a month later, and didn't want to farm AP and learn a whole new spec because i got benched for being fury (first 2 months of legion) and the other factor is Pugging content, it is just horrible. I found myself either being berated, kicked, or 1 wipe and the group falls apart.

[@rekrn12345]

Mythic 0 doesn't bring back any community. Once you get invited nobody says anything.

[@MarcoAdriaans]

Depends, I have had a few nice runs there. Usually the annoying ones are 880+, being rude, pushing people, talking thrash if someone makes a simple mistake....with me they got a bad one though, either I votekick them, or I leave. I prefer having a noob in my group, than these annoying as*****s :-D

[@masterface6257]

yeah mostly silence runs

[@88khorne]

I like how you picked VotW to show off the m+ first dungeon, it's a really good dungeon. As a retri paladin i have 91 runs.

[@MrSanchez159]

back when i played the game i didnt really like dealing with trying to find people. i had pugged a raid, took 6 hours for normal emerald nightmare. id host mythics as a paladin healer turned tank and found i didnt want to deal with that either. i was in a raid guild that i didnt do anything with after raiding, i realized i dont like people and i was just playing this game because ive been playing this game. i work graveyard now which doesnt help much either. at one point i loved raiding but raiding is boring or a test of frustration now and this just isnt for me anymore.

[@sinklar7946]

10:53 he coughed during the narration at the same time he coughed during the actual recording of the gameplay lmao

[@Merlininsider]

I don't run as many normal mythics anymore, as the AP isn't as good, but even as a raider I still run them sometimes for world quests. Sure, you can do world quests on heroic, but that feels like a bit of a waste if you've already done your daily random heroic (for the AP). As an iLvL 888 baer, it doesn't really matter if the healer and/or dps is low, though. Quite often, you have a least one player running with around iLvL 800 gear (or even below every now and then), but that's not a problem - it just means that you outdps the low dps, and depend more on self healing if the healer is low. :)

[@TheEvixy]

I got kicked from a heroic BRH as a disc healer early in the expansion after illyana ravencrest. I was averaging 200k hps during the fight but I just coulnd't keep up with the amount of damage the group was taking. The tank was taking massive hits from her ability and the rest of the group was taking a pounding from the brutal glaives and the fel rush. Later that evening I did BRH again, though this time on mythic and with my standard group and as a dps, and our healer wasn't even doing more than 100k hps during that same fight but on mythic. At that point I decided to hell with pugging as a healer in Legion unless I so vastly outgear the content that I can carry it by myself as a healer.

[@TheStormie456]

I have found that not being certain item level puts you into a a certain caliber of runs you're "qualified" to pug for, ie if you're under 870 you cant get into a +6 run likewise with under 880 bars you from +9 runs.

[@gnhouse]

I've got to admit I've hit that wall at Mythic 0. It crushed my will to play, and I pretty much have given up on the game just now. This vid is making me want to give it another go though. Hopefully I'll find my love for the game again.

[@MarcoAdriaans]

Sorry but my experience it different. Mythic+, I love a challenge but at ilvl 860+ after Mythic+4 you get simply declined even people join my own group and leave....even if I mention in the description no 3 chest run....because people at 860 need to surpass their ilvl gap, and this now is only possible if you're in a guild, or play with friends (or are VERY lucky with pugs)....people are so focused on these frigging 3 chests, I try to have some challenging gameplay AND the next week, you get a nice chest reward, and whatever drops from 1,2 or 3 chests, is a bonus....the 3 chests are ruining the levelling, since it's mostly 880+ doing their fast runs at > +4, no way you get in one of those if you're 860, and if you say different, I'm sorry but I don't buy that :D....maybe your server is different....mine no....besides....I personally hate playing with rude people (and they usually are, also that takes away my fun in the game)....so I have a bad pug experience....but I am certainly not afraid for a challenge just people start moaning after you make a mistake like it's the end of the frigging world....it's a game Besides when I did mythics with friends and guildies....my best experience is normal dungeons....they are actually a lot of fun....so boring runs with overgeared people, just showed what you can do with your SKILL at this item level.

[@LightWrathme]

As a healer, pugging Mythic 0 is great, sometimes might be very chill, other times some crazy stuff happens. I enjoy the stress. In much higher mythics there's always a sense of control which often is lacking in mythic 0.

[@EJsGameplay]

28:20 I can even hear "How could this happen to me" playing.

[@gsarssadams]

Have you tried the "Cast at cursor" macro for totem casting? It makes a HUGE difference

[@darthenx2585]

Am stuck in the mythic 0 - mythic 3 zone. Nobody will take me because of my ilvl. I am rejected immediately. Even guildies won't take me to their high keys. I think mythic 0 should be que able to allow some of us to farm more gear for higher mythic pluses.

[@Happigail_Adams]

what ilvl what region

[@darthenx2585]

Ticha360 ilvl 862. Must I add I am a s-priest. This three chest focus is so annoying for us trying to lvl up.

[@Chimpmanboom]

Darthen X can't go shadow in m+ until you max your wep and get at least one of the best legendaries, go holy or disc until then

[@Godzra321]

Darthen X open up dungeon finder Q for LFR out gear mythic 0 you are creating your own problems

[@MeNotyouxD]

Darthen X I never take low geared people to my high m+ runs more than once a week, just so they can get their weekly chest. But when we do it, we use their keys, because it is a boost. There's also some high geared people in my guild I never bring for high keys, due to lacking in skill when it comes to interrupt, LoS and just small things that can cheese a mechanic.

[@DJ117]

Pug H NH as a 883ish Hpriest. Top heals or matched with the others that are 900ish. Then seven hours later and 18 wipes on Gul'dan with several making you contemplate just jumping off the side because people refuse to help with bonds.

[@anodigerion7375]

had 2 kinda ridiculous situations leveling a few alts some weeks ago: 1. i was just dpsing like usual, pulling nothing, that wasn't already on the tank, didn't say a word the entire dung, and suddenly, i get a loadscreen and sit in sw with the message "you have been removed from the group" 2. I was healing at about lvl 30-40 when people start telling me, i was a bad healer, because i attacked the boss, and blaming me for them dying, after they pulled aggro and then lineofsighted me

[@lilypad2026]

can you do a video on speedrunning karazhan to get to nightbane? my weekly group cant quite figure it out (we only beat Viz'aduum for the first time around 3 weeks ago, maybe its just too much for us to handle?)

[@GrowlingRB24]

Very intresting Preach, very intresting research indeed!

[@markwightman5194]

Usually you can tell why you got kicked, but if it is a unexplainable one check the server time. If you are in a heroic during the daily quest reset time of day it will remove the entire group and give the message like you have been removed via a kick. Was asking myself the same questions one day and I got a hate filled whisper from the tank and it dawned on me that we all got kicked due to the daily quest reset timer.

[@jadayaindigo7696]

In my experience (high end Mythic raiding guild) on launch even Heroics were a waste of time since the lvling gear didnt give you the ilvl required for random ques So we skipped that and jumped straight in to M0

[@khoitrieu]

My highest mythic is +6 and I'm a fury warrior 892 ilvl with my 2 best in slot legendaries. Youre right, I juggle with finding time to play since I work ~50 hour a week.

[@seralecr]

As a Raider, I've cleared all mythic dungeons each week since week one. I can't believe you say it's not worth going there. This past week with AK 23 I got over 1.4m AP, on top of that got around 15 Chaos Crystal and 70 BoS. I always go with friends so I agree with the fact that Mythic Raiders won't join M-Dungeons on the pug world but they are so worth the 2 hours you need to clear them all.

[@SadBirbHours]

Ghosty or Preach, when are you doing the girl in a guild experiment?

[@SingleMaltZombie]

Christopher Kendall Yeah, that would be interesting... Especially with young guild members

[@ConfusedRaccoon]

Lol. "Hey Emma, come here a minute would ya?"

[@Magefind]

Have Ghost and Emma apply and see who wins

[@noobert18]

they said they weren't going to because as funny as it would be it wouldn't be the kind of attitude they like to promote in the general wow audience or something along those lines

[@Carriesue1982]

Christopher Kendall I'm a girl and have been in several guilds. I've never ever gotten a free ride, never gotten gold or items, never expected those things either... in fact back in tbc during some progression fights I was benched as I was a feral dps/tank and they didn't need me. I will never understand what is the big deal of a girl in the game.

[@Terrados1337]

I almost choked on my morning coffee hearing about the 200k hps :D

[@PaulaJBean]

Do you find this number high or low?

[@swilliams0416]

I guess I am a bit of an oddball. I enjoy regular Mythic pugs as resto shaman. I like to start the group and get people with low item levels. It makes it fun and interesting to see what they do and help them get better gear. I run all the mythic regulars every week for that chance at shiny orange gear (I have 2 already but one is enhance oops wrong spec and the other is THAT ring you all know the one that isn't a secret). I found raiding as a resto shaman to just be so frustrating with heal sniping and meter padding that I just don't feel needed or useful until the overhealers oom. I wish more people understood that healing isn't just about raw numbers. 300k hps doesn't make you better just makes you oom for last 1/3 of the fights. I really enjoyed your series here. I am always looking to see what other healers are doing and how I can be better. Maybe it will help others really understand what a healer really does.

[@willhosie296]

What addon are you using for you character menu Preacher?

[@stormstrider1990]

My first mythic dungeon runs were awful because I was playing my boosted fire mage and did low dps despite having the recommended item level. I got often yelled at and even kicked once because of that. I then did some research and found out getting 60% crit was the key. Forming my own groups also helped a lot. I still haven't finished Karazhan though, because people keep quitting after 3-4 wipes. Guess I have to wait for the heroic version to open in patch 7.2. Fine by me, I play mostly for the lore anyway.

[@skatereboy227]

I had a mythic 0 on my holy priest recently where I died in lair bc I forgot what my levitate was key bound to and our dk had path of frost on at the first waterfall to the rokmora

[@MrOPD]

Why are you using Grid in addition to Elvui? Elvui's group frames are pretty much exactly like Grid and textured icons for buff indicators are already included there.

[@Hell0spawn0doug]

I know I have been removed from a group but when I asked in trade chat about it lot of people had been removed around the same time and it seems to be something to do with world quests resetting. IDK though it has happened to me about 4 times as a tank in groups that weren't having any issues.

[@iCharli92]

I still do standard mythics weekly on 890 main. I hate farming herbs that's why I prefer dungeons and I can easily carry a shit group. Entire set of m0 dungeons gives around 2 million ap and 30-50 bloods of sargeras and that's a good enough incentive for me.

[@iCharli92]

Bloodhunter enchant and it's like what 40 bosses?

[@Magziesfuntime]

Yo-yos are mosy times cause by two things. 1. Someone ques tank but stays on dps spec. 2. and more common a 2nd tank ques as dps also and stays on tank spec. then you get this Yo-Yo effect where they mobs can't decide which toons to attack and the a dps pops an aoe spell and choas. from you Recount it looks like you had 2 Pallies so it might have been the 2nd.

[@listerrs3580]

what quality settings are you on that the flames are like that ?

[@tripleabd]

Hola Preach and Ghosty! I'm having a problem that i would like some feedback from you. I'm the raid leader of a casual Guild, we raid Heroics only on Thursdays and Sundays 3 hours each night and we try to get as many people in as possible. we are 7/7 EN HC and 3/3 TOV HC our Guild has over 900 members (it is not a cesspool) we know each others, everyone there is either close friends or a friend of friend or alts, we don't do random people. yet we struggle to manage to get more than 15 people to raid because the majority of the members can not dedicate those 3 hours a night once a week, yet they do M+ all the time AND at the same time as we have the raid night. so the problem and question is, how can we convince those people to join in the raids rather than doing M+? i keep telling them that the raids are easy and we just want them in there to fill numbers and they can get free loot and boost, but they keep refusing because they think its difficult and tactics are too hard and being with more than 5 people is too much for them and that its too crowded... i know that they are good players and that they have really good gear for the raids, matter of fact they even overgear the raids because they are M+ geared, and i guarantee that they can get the HC raid kill and it will be a breeze for them yet i see that they are shy and afraid to join. recruiting is out of the question since we don't like randoms and we don't trust new people. and we keep the guild to only close friends and friends of friends. What is your advice?

[@karlzone2]

I'll be honest, I seriously doubt you know 899 people well. In any case, what you probably need to do is build a more stable group of people who actually want to raid. At the moment it sounds like you are just "pugging" the raids with people who happen to be in your guild. It's not really a proper raid group. If the other players don't wish to raid, I don't think you should try so hard to convince them. Just recruit some more stable members, who are there to raid, and let those other players play the game how they wish. And perhaps, as your non-stable members see the raid group grow, become more stable and do better, they may wish to join after all. It's just that no one wants to be the first person to commit to a schedule. Because that would mean showing up and signing off a part of your day with absolutely no guarantee that you'll get anything of value done in that time. All in all I reckon the problem is: you are trying to fill out a raid group with people who are in your guild, but are not people who joined your guild to raid.

[@tripleabd]

karlzone2 im sorry but no! we have 900 members cause each player has 10+ alts in the guild and we do know everyone because the guild has been established since TBC and alive since. everyone knows everyone like i stated in my main comment because we strive to keep it close to each other. most and all and everyone in the guild has established their groups for M+ groups and they are all active on our voice comms and personal guild channels. the issue is that just like i stated in my comment, many can not commit time because of how their lives are and how they have to afk each now and then after each mythic cuz of IRL that's why they cant possibly sit 3 hours straight. there isn't really an issue with our guild progression and our core raid group however (i might be selfish) but i would love to have a 30 man raid with all these M+ players since i have played with them in M+ and i know they are good but i cant really convince them. and i know some of them would want and love to raid, but they cant cuz of their IRL. recruiting is out of the question since we don't like to trial people and we are just used to each other and we have enough to fill multiple raids and multiple groups. we hate randoms and people we don't know and cant trust.

[@bongcrusha420]

some people just dont have time to raid.. m+ you can blow threw one in 20 mins and go afk for 30 then come back and do another 2 m+... somone does that in a raid there guna get shit for makin 19+ other people wait

[@Shiftry87]

I remember i was kicked from a random hc long ago and the only reson i could think of i was kicked for was becouse the Prot warrior was so overgeared that he shielded every1 so mutch that my Resto hots never hade a chans to actully do any healing. Keep in mind this was when prot warriors hade an op passive that constantly shielded your party as he dealt dmg. I cant remember what expansion it was but this warr was topping the healing meter with a 95% overhealing.

[@timmy3441]

That sucks that they kicked you. Just thought I'd point out though, in case you didn't already know - overhealing doesn't count towards healing done, meters only show the part which was effective healing. If you heal someone on full health, the meter will show zero healing. So if you ever see someone on a healing meter and wonder "yeah, but how much of that is overhealing?" the answer is zero.

[@mrborgeusborg9164]

I know I'm late with comment but thought this was interesting to listen to. I like to do LFR, but not mythic so much. I started to ask why? My guild I'm with is a social guild, and I'm online pretty late so finding a group who wants to do a mythic+ is sometimes hard. Also, because I had a break for maybe two months I had to gear up and be comfortable doing mythics+. I did some in WoD and it always was hard. Also, I'm not the best player. I play for fun, I don't need to clear mythic nighthold or be the best pvp ever. I always say to people: Are you having fun? When you are winning. Who cares if it's clearing a heroic dungeon or Mythic +20? Are you having fun you are a winner. I went in with a healer from guild with a +2. Went awesome and we 3-chested it. The only death was me because a DC. I did a +4. It went bad. Four wipes and maybe 8 deaths to dps during the run. 1 chest. I was thinking of why it happened and it's a combination of undergeared healer and dps who didn't know tactics well enough to avoid damage. What I feel is that because of not having ability to do +6 because one time 1chest a +4 is not enough in mind to do more. So i go to group finder and look for +2, +3 and so on. And as a 887 I'm not getting invited. It feels so hard. I don't want to do that. But the best thing happened maybe 5 days ago. I looked for a group to do Arcway(I think it was arcway) for a quest. For some reason all my keybinds didn't work. I pressed 1-button and I saw that it reacted but no attack came. I could only do two damageabilities. One with 2min CD and one with 1min CD. I said to the group: "Somethings really wrong. I can't do my abilites. I don't know why" I tried different things and it didn't work. I said: "If you want, kick or tell me to leave. This isn't funny for me because I don't want to be carried this much" Answer: "I doesn't matter. Come along. Get the AP, and fix it later". So I walked around with two AoE-abilites. Second to last boss, it started to work. I could do damage. I did second most damage to the two last bosses. Don't know what happened. It was a Mythic + 0. I think I know what the problem was, so when this happens again I will try and fix it right away.

[@PaulaJBean]

What was the problem?