The REAL Problem With Anita Sarkeesian's Feminist Video Game Critiques

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#feminism #gaming
0:00 Tomb Raider
17:20 The Anita Sarkeesian Video

[@Tacom4ster]

Lindsay Ellis was always the better feminist essayist

[@Zappbrannigan83]

Absolutely.

[@AW-sx8hm]

Damn that's a low bar

[@katakesh8566]

​@@AW-sx8hmit's in hell bud The Left just cant hook people where it matters.

[@lokimiguel2452]

​@@AW-sx8hmshut up

[@tylerhackner9731]

💯💯💯💯

[@EroticInferno]

45:30 “I don’t want less sexualized women, I want more sexualized men” Go off, KING 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@GBomb9704]

Based Vaush

[@deathshop2172]

the idea that "you can't see women as people if you're sexually attracted to them, or find something sexy about them" is, in my opinion, one of the worst ways the feminist movement shot itself in the foot back in the 2010s. cause if you tell that to young straight guys, shout it from the rooftops, all you're doing is reinforcing this idea of their sexuality being either monstrous (which is emotional anguish a lot of guys will address by just thinking they can't see women as people) or reinforcing the idea that they inherently just can't see women as people? I know it massively hurt me, and left me with a stunted idea of my own sexuality. It caused me a massive amount of shame, that I could have sexual feelings for girls, especially girls I was romantically interested in (because I loved them, and saw sexual attraction as something which infringed upon that) In general, just a horrible idea to enforce.

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

Are you anti-f3minist

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

If you're a leftist then why are you defending those straight men who objectify women and don't treat that as human beings

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

You don't think there are straight men who don't see women as people?

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

You don't like tall or plus sized women

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

You don't think enforcing misogyny or patriarchy is a horrible idea?

[@Vraptor1]

Like Vaush said, none of Anita’s points will never justify the hate campaign thrown against her during Gamergate, but it is disappointing to know that during that era of discourse, the most popular critiques of video games from a nominally feminist perspective were really shallow, and frankly, really stupid and ridiculous in a way that made attacking feminism as a whole much easier, distracting from the very real problems present in the gaming community at that time. Again, doesn’t justify anything that happened to her, but her arguments were so easy to snipe at. These types of “big boobs mean you aren’t human and are just a sex object” and turning initially proud, strong characters into dumbed down r*pe victims really did a number on a younger me who was turned away from feminism precisely due to attitudes like this.

[@n0etic_f0x]

It is also good to know "her" worst stuff is not written by her. The stuff Anita herself wrote is fine and honestly better than what I got in school.

[@lolusuck386]

It's so bad that I would believe it if you told me that it was controlled opposition funded by the right wingers who frontlined gamergate.

[@TehAnimationSparxx]

​​@@n0etic_f0x didn't she still fail to deliver on all the episodes of tropes vs women series on time despite getting fully funded for it?

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@TehAnimationSparxx I think so but I honestly can’t blame her. She was being harassed to no end.

[@zaferoph]

@@TehAnimationSparxx She did make the last ones over a few years time but the production quality arguably went down massively.

[@snuzzlebumble]

This is EXACTLY what was needed during the gamergate days. A leftist critique of her videos giving fair and nuanced takes towards both Anita, and the male gamers who got so triggered by her videos. This would've pulled so many of those dudes left without giving an inch of ground towards anti-feminists.

[@thejunkface]

There were some, but from less known creators and it all got lumped in with the rest of the ggers at the time.

[@kampa7671]

@@thejunkface And in the meantime, the mainstream media pretty much equated all male gamers to sexist creeps and borderline incels (before the term was even popularized). Hell, gamergate made it into "Law&Order", in an episode that so bad that it insulted all sides of this "conflict". It's no wonder that GG was a breeding ground for the alt-right, the media did most of the work for them.

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

There WERE fair and nuanced takes. They just got lumped in the harassment and never properly acknowledged. Hell, I used to keep a list of links to actually calm, fair critiques of Anita's analysis to post whenever someone supporting her rhetorically asked, "Name ONE person who's actually bothered to give her a real argument! She just wants to have a CONVERSATION!" and none of them ever responded to it.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@thejunkface True. iirc, even Chris Ray Gun was quite more nuanced in his counterarguments to her content than a lot of the "Gamergater" (and burgeoning "Fandom Menace") channels were

[@Saktoth]

She was the dogpile of the whole of KZbin the favourite topic the twitter protagonist before there was such a thing. Of course there was left wing critique. But it was just loaded onto the hate train with all the rest.

[@averytherockgod9822]

I feel like the biggest problem with Anita is she basically will consider any kinda female character design with a voluptuous body as being “sexualized” which ends up basically demonizing certain body types by making them seem overtly sexual and taboo. Which itself is incredibly sexist, and the act of doing this is deeply rooted in sexism and white supremacy, and the term “white supremacy” is not a term I just toss around like some ppl do.

[@futurestoryteller]

I don't know. I want you to think about the *men* in porn and tell me if you think the size of a person's perceived "private parts" has any correlation culturally to sexuality or to the presumed inducement of sexual arousal. Bonus points for saying "it's realistic" because those men exist.

[@Melonmancer]

@@futurestoryteller A man having a big penis is not inherently sexual.

[@cr33p3rhd6]

How is it white supremacist?

[@Artofcarissa]

I think the point she was trying to make was that women are sexualized in games way more than men are. Like how many scantily clad men are there in games vs women?

[@AkEshiva]

i think these takes are writer's (or maybe even Anita's) reflection of traumatic experience of sexualization. many women share this experience of their body deemed sexual object for merely existing, which entails bias and warrants denunciation, harassment or even assault no matter how a woman presents herself or who she is. so they project their own formed bias against such perception on fictional characters. while indoctrinated into thinking that women's bodies are inherently sexual. extremes breed extremes.

[@trianglemoebius]

As someone who has done 3D modelling, I'd like to quickly point out that Batman's model not having an ass is perfectly reasonable. Not like the character of Batman doesn't have one, of course, but it makes the physics on his cape a lot easier to manage since there's no one part protruding. Especially since the player is going to be staring at him from behind for most of the playtime, so a clipping issue there would be EXTREMELY obvious.

[@uninstaller2860]

I thought you meant by modeling that you were a photo model and saw flat asses all the time, until I read on and understood it's 3D modeling you were talking about

[@PamdaBear1]

@@uninstaller2860lmao same

[@trianglemoebius]

@@uninstaller2860 Fairplay, probably should edit that.

[@BrandonL337]

...y'know, I'd laughed at batmans flat ass, but that is a perfectly reasonable explanation

[@SorarikoMotone]

which actually makes sense - pso2 also would have problem with clothing clipping if your character is too shapey, which they fixed with clothes simply floating off your body at a certain distance... which looks silly in some clothes, but it works

[@Westlander857]

The left’s decline in popularity during the early-mid 10’s wasn’t entirely self-inflicted. But *some* of it definitely was.

[@enriquesanchez9016]

The problem is that the left was barely allow to exist back then, and it's still a problem now. The most powerful media organizations that aren't just right wing are dominated by liberals even to this day. It's very hard for the left to have a voice.

[@christopherjustice6411]

Wow we’re going vintage today aren’t we? Edit: Kyle Kulinski had a great term for this type of feminism. He called it “McFeminism”

[@MaddSpazz2000]

That's a good one, perfect fit for Anita

[@phoenixfunny4517]

Why "McFeminism" ?

[@Neon_Plasma]

​@@phoenixfunny4517cheap and low quality

[@lukemicky3744]

damn that a good one ill have to use it from now on!😂

[@christopherjustice6411]

@@phoenixfunny4517 Because it’s synthetic and doesn’t really challenge corporate and capitalist structures.

[@JordoMIB]

Videos debunking her led me down a strange rabbit hole back in 2016. Most of her points still don't stick, but I wish that my teenage brain didn't make me assume that annoying meant bad.

[@Chinesetakeout382]

Made a similar mistake. Can’t believe my political journey started at hating her, and looped right back around to hating her, but for the right reason now.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@Chinesetakeout382 Same, dood. My life the last couple years has been mothing but curveballs.

[@ClockworkFool]

I think she did more damage to feminism and leftism than anything back in the gamergate days.

[@futurestoryteller]

@@Chinesetakeout382 Sounds like confirmation bias with added nuance. I mean seriously. You have good reasons to "hate" her?

[@spencers4121]

I didn't hate her, I saw she was just a grifter like so many other, and moved on with my life.

[@MisterBrickalew]

My Son wants to BE her, not protect her. He was Laura Croft for Halloween, and his Lego minifigure is based on her. He loves being a badass capable woman.

[@forwunday8351]

Omg that’s so cute

[@mesmorrow]

You mean daughter.

[@MisterBrickalew]

@@mesmorrow No

[@crypt5129]

​@@mesmorrowNot necessarily

[@uncabob214]

Speaking as a guy, I sure do have some round cheeks back there, and the lack of representation for guys with my body type really hurts my fantasy.

[@Pudddle]

Amen, bro, Nightwing and Snake are not enough. It's time for the era of male cake ✊😤🍑

[@dracocrusher]

I want to point out, in Arkham City you can literally give Batman his Beyond outfit, which does not have a cape and will 100% totally allow you to see his butt. So the Batman example is extra weird and dumb.

[@jefftonsman]

That isn't the standard batman so thats a dumb point

[@hjf3022]

​@@jefftonsmanher point was that the devs went to extreme lengths to avoid you seeing Batman's butt. But it was straight up not true.

[@dracocrusher]

@@jefftonsman You can totally play the entire game with Batman's ass out, though, in an honestly pretty great looking outfit a lot of people would want to use. What's extra goofy is that cape attack is actively a big part of the game, so it'd be super easy to justify just not adding the costume if they were that obsessed with hiding his ass.

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@jefftonsmanBut her point was the devs bent 9ver backwards to hide his butt....except they gave us a costume where his butt is front and center just like Catwomans and Lara Crofts lol.

[@jefftonsman]

@@dracocrusher But that isn't the plain standard of the game. Are you people being intentionally dumb?

[@gen1exe]

I have a friend with large breasts who was told by her female boss in a professional setting that she needed to cover up because it was obscene or provocative. IDK, Lara Croft is iconic like a superhero or James Bond and is meant to be larger than life (no pun intended). I think that in addition to the male gaze there's players who think her look is fun or part of what makes her badass.

[@trinketeerrine6674]

Yeah, people tend to blame women for their large breasts in real life. They treat us like we chose to put on large breasts that day, like we intentionally put them there. Some people will see large breasts and think that's an invitation... Making Lara Croft flat chested won't change that mentality. She was iconic as she was before, I agree. She was sexual on her own terms which made her all the more badass. I'd like to see more representation of non-sexualized women with large breasts for a change though. I don't dislike the femme fatale trope, but I think it's a bit overdone.

[@AkerfeldtTveitan-yi4xm]

What is this sick demonization of human anatomy? What's next? She should cover up with a burka?

[@weeaboobarko]

the idea that being sexually attracted to a woman means that you don't see her as a human seems so strange to me, at that point you're basically saying that it's impossible for a man and a woman to have any relationship deeper than sex unless they're completely asexual

[@soulstealer5625]

Going back to the Jocat video, heteronormative understandings of relationships between men and women is men dominating women. Women then feel frustration in being repulsed by men yet greatly desiring* them

[@marocat4749]

If you see he ras your property that you are entiutled too, which hat kind of fetishization does, unlike one with respect, is very dehumanizing. See the trans porn by transphobes.

[@ms.aelanwyr.ilaicos]

I wonder if Kasparian is ace...

[@hinasakukimi]

i mean yeah it's literally the madonna/whore complex

[@xerxeskingofking]

its a form of the Madonna/Whore complex: a women can be as pure as the Virgin Mary and worthy of treating as a equal, OR be sexually active...but not both, because female sexuality is (somehow) unavoidably and inherently "dirty". its bloody stupid, but a lot of people think like this.

[@ArthurAveiro]

Diablo Cody said she finally understood why her Barbie movie couldn't get made in 2014, and it was because they wanted to do a feminist take on it, but "the culture had not embraced the femme or the bimbo as valid feminist archetypes yet". It was very much a time of "can we please stop only showing and promoting this beer commercial version of a woman in every goddamned movie, tv show and video game". So yes, it's shallow analysis, it wasn't ideal, but it doesn't surprise me that that's where the discourse went at the time. It seems like an inevitable and understandable overcorrection.

[@Liquidsback]

I would equate that to a lot of what we see on the history discourse of the Middle Ages, a lot of people like to build up the rest of the world in that time by downplaying Europe or saying Europe was all completely backwards while the Islamic World (Umayyad, Abbasid, Al-Andalus) and China (Tang, Song) and other parts of the world were doing just fine. The intention was to make history less Eurocentric but it completely negates what Europe was doing at the time, (Byzantine Empire, Ostrogoths under Theodoric, Franks, Bulgarian Empire, etc.) An important point is you don't have to tear down the bimbo or femme to promote the plus sized women or smaller women just like you don't have to tear down one part of the world to build another.

[@dudeman5303]

Tbh it comes off to me like an overcorrection that ended up in fallacious territory, and tbh it's kind of understandable as to why feminism when that way because the representation of women in media was just that bad and the prominent feminism at the time was very very surface level and not as progressive as it could've been. Liberalism and conservatism was the entire spectrum of the accepted norm in politics, there was no outlet for a left wing critique anywhere and so the information people got who were upset at the societal norm was almost always going to be a more shallow critique from a liberal perspective, at BEST a slightly progressive but still liberal perspective. Now we have leftist outlets/propaganda, and just better outreach, so people can have an easier time finding an actual critique that isn't just the typical conservative/liberal surface level drivel. Liberalism and conservatism tends to be just much more fallacious in nature and for me, back when I was younger and was a hardcore Right winger, I always felt like I was missing out on "the correct" takes and information but i had nowhere i could turn to actually understand the FULL scope of existing perspectives. I didn't know what the leftist perspective was on ANYTHING because conservatives and liberals had their caricature of it and so I assumed since they agreed on the left being bad and tyrannical that it was one topic I didn't need to research.

[@dudeman5303]

​@@Liquidsbackyeah straight up

[@malum9478]

@@Liquidsback well...that's a bit different. europe isn't being "torn down" by people recognizing that they aren't the center of the universe. it's a correction of centuries of brainwashing. very different from understanding that all women are valid and deserve respect regardless of how they look--especially since the "ideal woman" is not even close to as universal as white supremacy/eurocentrism.

[@marocat4749]

@@Liquidsback Also most people dont get the dark age is more about lost sources than anything about culture, like life way maybe not always the best, but people lived the best life threy could colourful, even among the plague. Very festive. And farmers did have a not bad work sheldue and a lot rural festivalsand days off as that festive days. Life was always hard but with plenty joy too.

[@daryno9048]

Honestly I think it would help if there was a wider range of women body types in video games. Have muscular woman, have feminine women, have older women (like serene from Returnal), things like that. The problem seem like a lot of gamers seem to expect all women characters to be curvy and any slight change to that is met with harassment and criticism. The latest victim of this is the voice actor for Mary Jane in Spiderman 2 who not looking to audition anymore because of the backlash toward her appearance. And all because she was in an accident and need surgery done on her

[@grmpf]

"tall and short women. big booby and little booby and no booby women…" 🎵

[@jackbarman7063]

Setting aside other criticisms of Overwatch, it does this really well.

[@zenmaster8]

man if only there was a song about appreciating all body types of girls. Too bad it was excized from the internet for being "cringe"

[@boianko]

​@@jackbarman7063I'd say that league of legends does it too, but in fairness the vast majority of female league characters are hentai-bait. Still there are characters like Zoe, Neeko, Illaoi, Taliyah and Rell that break the mold a little bit.

[@Lenitas]

What Spiderman 2 game are you talking about? Cause it can't be the PS5 one. MJ in that game like in the PS4 Spiderman is voiced by Laura Bailey. As far as I'm aware the last time she got a harassment wave was because she voiced Abby in TLOU2. Also I don't think Laura Bailey was in an accident any time recently.

[@Spongebrain97]

I remember back then just getting the vibes that she hadn't played a game in her life and was using pop feminism for likes. But I didn't jump on the hate train because the right wing backlash was more off putting and didn't want to be in the same camp with them and so didn't get invested any further

[@ASDeckard]

Would hating her feel more ok if you knew that she gave multiple hour long presentations to *the United Nations?* Maybe it makes it even easier to know she used her victim money to run for office multiple times in several districts? I'm pretty sure it's affirmatively legal to send hate mail to politicians, maybe even a moral duty, I'm not sure, I've never read the constitution.

[@sub-harmonik]

you shouldn't shy away from criticizing someone due to a fear of association with other critics. Criticizing someone doesn't mean you agree with or condone everything anyone else that has criticisms for that person does. And if people try to deflect criticism by making that claim or insinuation (as many game journalists tried to do in the gamergate era imo) that's on them.

[@TranshumanMarissa]

@@ASDeckard no? because none of that is as scummy as you seem to think it is. but threatening to kill people sure is.

[@TranshumanMarissa]

@@sub-harmonik and yet, you do realize thats how you become 'a useful idiot' to those frothing at the mouth assholes, right? If you jump into a situation carelessly, and choose to critique someone who is being dog-piled, no matter how noble or well intentioned you are, it can lead to you adding to the dog pile. you can pretend its noble to stick to your guns, no matter the situation.. but it really isnt. context matters.

[@blarghblargh]

@@ASDeckard "hate" and "victim money" are strong words here. I get the feeling you may not be talking about this in good faith, with these absolutes.

[@RisingJericho]

It really can't be overstated how far we've come with feminism and gender equality over the last 10 years.

[@linusgustafsson2629]

That depends on how you view it. Like on Twitch only really women can sit there and chat and have people pour money over them for just existing. Meaning women have a great advantage over men. But they still do get this privilege from being sexualized by the men looking. If gender equality was true, then nobody would watch female streamers because everyone would be watching streamers who are skilled, and men are usually more skilled at gaming. Which while equal in treatment, would mean women would be severely underrepresented. All in all, the sexism is in full force active on places like Twitch. The women enforce it because they get money out of it. The men want it removed, because it competes with their profits from being skilled.

[@Elgnirp]

@@linusgustafsson2629I fail to see the problem, so what women make money off their bodies, those male streamers should consider being hotter. Like genuinely, they just seem mad insecure they way you’re describing it

[@MarianneExJohnson]

It seems to be we're backsliding pretty hard at the moment, at least in the U.S.

[@ismth]

@@linusgustafsson2629 I don't think the thing you're describing is sexism thats just people choosing to watch certain streamers over others. People watch streamers bc they have captured their attention in some way, that's a skill... The way you're trying to reduce it to them just sitting there is lowkey kinda sexist. Plus there are plenty of streamers who don't necessarily make "good" content but people watch them, but thats true regardless of the person's gender. I just don't see the issue with this.

[@Ergoperidot]

⁠@@linusgustafsson2629You’re sounding like a reactionary 2015 anti feminist. I should know, I was one.

[@sookendestroy1]

"This is the peak Male fantasy"

[@Luigi_Mario_1997]

We can see your other replies

[@onlineoddballs3668]

"Oh no. men liking things. so harmful to women."

[@royalfrost1]

*24 Hour Cinderella begins playing*

[@jaredgreen2363]

Hey, remember when she said any physically strong female character was a ‘man with boobs’? That reads so much weirder now.

[@wumbojet]

Did she actually say that or was that s Sargon bs rant?

[@eznosnopes5276]

She was just impossible to please. Women being treated like men in games were men with boobs. Women being treated differently to the point of just sitting differently were also an issue.

[@YouthRightsRadical]

It didn't read as particularly good at the time to anyone who was paying attention. You may have noticed there were a number of people displeased around that time.

[@eznosnopes5276]

@@YouthRightsRadical Anyone that disagreed was labelled a biggot. She played the media really well.

[@flamemasterelan]

I know Anita Sarkeesian got a lot of harassment back in the day, and I by no means would like to see a repeat of that, but I would enjoy Vaush critiquing her points from the left.

[@thecanadianfuhrer8602]

seeing non-hysterical sarkeesian coverage is odd, like im viewing an impossible glitch in reality that my brain does not have the tools to logically comprehend.

[@justinokraski3796]

I remember watching that video years ago and thinking it was written poorly. Unfortunately, my response back then was to fall into the Alt-Right instead of thinking “wow what a dummy” and moving on

[@Cancellator5000]

I mean she also kind of represented what mainstream feminism was like back in that time, which was clearly very shallow and alienating to gamers who noticed how ridiculous some of her arguments were. It's too bad there wasn't really a coherent sex-positive alternate critique being made.

[@t.i.5528]

Not defending the alt-right, but it's hard to say Anita is just a dummy when she had the entire media and online feminist movement at the time propping her up.

[@mastergame1311]

My main criticism with sexy and powerful women in video games is that I feel like the femme fatale trope is the most popular which leads to this weird equation of sexuality and power which is rarely seen in masculine characters. I just wish there were more badass women who are different than that (also more sexy man would be cool, I think.) The trope of sexy badasses is not the issue, but rather its frequency, in my opinion.

[@stevenclark5173]

It's hard to pull off sexual and powerful in male characters without coming across as rapey.

[@mastergame1311]

@@stevenclark5173 Chris Redfield.

[@juans213]

​@@stevenclark5173 Most Capcom protagonists

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@stevenclark5173 It definitely requires a certain level of finesse from the writer(s) and charisma from the VA.

[@NineToFiveGamerUC0079]

That would be Dracula and yea it comes across as rapey.

[@TheTdroid]

Back in the day, I feel like a lot of pop-feminist culture critics were just sex negative and couldn't see past their own biases. Any hint of women being tied to sexuality in any way seem to be bad in their view, regardless of how it is presented. Which is nonsense; characters can be both sexualized and not be problematic. It depends on presentation and context. Vaush has a good rule of thumb here: Sexualized and cool. Anyone who's had (or have) periods of their life when they feel unattractive for whatever reason are likely to feel some degree of inadequacy with how men and women are typically presented in popculture. They're usually in great shape, effortlessly attractive, great hair etc. Popculture puts attractive people on a pedestal and, unfortunately, often equates being ugly with being less important, less virtuous or outright the bad guy. Is it equally bad for both genders? Not in gaming, which is a medium that was heavily dominated by male customers until very recently. But look at the men in media *for women* and you see a lot of the same elements. Or look at men and women in media aimed at everyone and you'll see both being sexualized in similar ways. Are we seriously going to pretend that the statistically significant increase in female viewers for Aquaman with Jason Momoa shirtless didn't happen? C'mon.

[@enriquesanchez9016]

I disagree about men being sexualized the same way. Even when sexualized, men are presented as powerful and in control while that's not always the case for sexualized female characters. Also there's WAAAAAAAY more media for men than for women. And even in media for women, there could still be an insane amount of misogyny, Coleen Hoover's books are a perfect example.

[@thesilentcomposer1278]

Nothing she’s said will ever justify making death threats at her, but I can somewhat understand why gamers would have some ire against her seeing as her criticisms have always been shallow, often flat-out untrue, and harmful to the feminist movement rather than helpful. There are plenty of criticisms of video games to make from a feminist perspective but hers were so off the mark it’s laughable.

[@justinokraski3796]

Also she got invited to speak at things like the UN and John Oliver talked about her so it could never just go away

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Her shallow takes on characters like Samus and Bayonetta, strong female icons I looked up to pre- and post-coming out as trans, pushed me into the anti-sjw rabbithole. I won't blame Anita for my descent down that hole, but her content pushed me away just enough to slip.

[@Creamcups]

I think this is a very uncharitable view at her videos. In hindsight, of course it feels shallow. But please remember that feminist critique of videogames was not really a thing outside of insular forum communities. FF was the first mainstream feminist analysis for videogames so of course it won't have aged well. I think Anita was just a bit in over her head and was propelled into the mainstream because there was a real vacuum for feminism in videogames media in those days.

[@marocat4749]

After she got all that hate, she was entirely forgettable till she became that harassed. So the reactonary snowflakje gamers were the one making her have a better career to begin with, and fame. Given at a price. @@justinokraski3796

[@aureateseigneur5317]

​@@CreamcupsNo it's not unfair, her videos where shallow when they came out, even back then. Being the first isn't an excuse to do a weak job.

[@Gaawachan]

The first video I saw of hers about a video game was Bayonetta, and it was so bad that I never watched another video of hers. She knew absolutely nothing about the game, and there was no actual "feminist" content about her video. It was ridiculous. After that I just ignored her; she obviously had nothing to say worth hearing. The only thing more cringe than her faux feminist analysis are the idiotic reactions to it.

[@blarghblargh]

besides the video you're commenting on, what's an example of actual feminist analysis that you think is high quality?

[@Dreigonix]

Quite frankly, anyone who thinks Bayonetta is misogynistic should have their feminist license revoked. “BUT WHAT ABOUT THE THIRD ONE-” No. Shush. Bayo being in love with a guy does not make her any less of a feminist icon.

[@LimeyLassen]

@@blarghblargh I don't think good feminist essays were a thing on youtube until breadtube. Contrapoints changed the website.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

@@blarghblargh I think The Leftist Cooks has a good one about sx work along with an extraordinary short video about the right to an abortion by a channel whose name I cannot recall (it's deep in my Education playlist feat. a person who wears a mask). On the former, I would have to watch the video essay and peruse it again. On the latter, they talk about how the criminalization of abortion is not necessarily about hatred of women but using it as a stepping tool for state and legislative power. On the topic of this video, even Leon from Renegade Cut got it somewhat wrong on his Final Fantasy VII Remake video where he talks about Tifa. I personally think the design team could have come up with the original design but a so-called ethic department stepped in to change the way Tifa looks, for better or worse. While Leon is right that a lot of these fans are sexist and only saw Tifa as an object, the argument still neglects how there was little to no need for an ethics department to step in and change the way she looks while keeping Cloud and the others intact. Even Yuffie doesn't see a change but Tifa does? Because of her large breasts? It's basically the same issue we start off with when it comes to the new Lara Croft. Just my thoughts, you can agree or not. Thanks for reading.

[@Gaawachan]

@@blarghblargh Tbh I don't watch a lot of youtubers but recently I watched some verilybitchie videos which applied feminist critique at several works. Her videos on Barbie and on the "lesbian gaze" were both good. One of the problems is that people act as though looking at video games through a feminist lens is somehow a big no no BECAUSE of Saarkesian, but she never did it well to begin with, so unfortunately it can be difficult to find people willing to actually tackle it in a meaningful way save perhaps the occasional blink and you'll miss it text post on a social media board.

[@Hayden_Lummus]

Her choice of topics, the dark blue background, positioning, even audio levels makes her come across like the left wing version of PragerU

[@futurestoryteller]

Wouldn't it be wild if PragerU didn't exist back then...

[@beans4706]

She’s liberal-white-bourgeois-pop-feminism, intersectional progressives disagree with her on Twitter on everything

[@alexhauser5043]

>> Libfem complaining about Lara Croft's shorts >> Left wing

[@STIR-FRIED-SUBWAY-RAT]

Nothing she said could ever justify the harassment and I still feel stupid for getting duped by incels back then.

[@alexhauser5043]

"duped by incels" Have you tried not being low-I.Q.?

[@DarthStuticus]

The bad, easily rebutted arguments Sarkeesian made at the time were what almost put me in the alt right pipeline. If someone had REAL criticism of her videos like Vaush applied here, i never would have even approached. At this point im so far removed from that, I dont remember if i got myself out, or if it was someone else.

[@RotGodKing]

Same for me. I remember talking about this shit with some friends and I definitely started going down a bad road. Not super sure what made me turn around.

[@Argumemnon]

Yep. People like Sarkeesian really help the reactionaries and alt-righters.

[@archermadsen7744]

Sargon has deleted the vast majority of his videos lmao

[@hunterlee4412]

I don't think I went alt right but I was definitely an Anti-SJW back in the day. If I didn't hate conservatives/Republicans and 4-chan so much it could have potentially changed my mind. Because of the most prominent feminist arguments at the time while I wouldn't consider myself anti feminist I was pro men's rights activism. It wasn't until overtime I saw many MRA's show their colors about wanting to restrict women's rights (or at least relish in women losing rights) that I really began to realize how they weren't any different. While I think there were anti SJW's who either didn't shill out, radicalize, or weren't just grifters from the get go they definitely aren't anti-sjw anymore, or at least their channel isn't devoted to being anti woke.

[@piccoloatburgerking]

That's pretty much the reason i was in the anti-sjw camp myself. I think Vaush is still off on a lot of this cause he still ends up making some of the same nonsense arguments but this is leagues above anything sarkisian could conjure up.

[@pola5195]

I remember being a teenager in 2014, and even then thinking feminism needs actual substantial critique but its so hard to do with all these crazies around. So its finally here, some actual substantial critique, only took like 10 years

[@novataco5412]

51:47 see here she is insane. She’s now not only arguing that gratuitous butt shots are dehumanizing when done disproportionately to female characters, she’s now *explicitly* saying that it is **humanizing** to cover-up the butt, not just that exploiting it is dehumanizing. idk if Anita personally is a swerf but this gives off giant red flags. 56:23 alright yeah this just supports the point more

[@onlineoddballs3668]

Exactly. Anita is swerfy as fuck. She is almost Ben Shapiro levels of prudishness. She has a moral issue over the smallest sexual fan service and acts like a character being even slightly gratuitous is inherently dehumanizing and dangerous to women, which is not only moral panicking, but also reeks of bitterness, like men enjoying things is upsetting to her.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

If she identifies as a radfem, definitely a swerf.

[@luminousghosts]

The article from the beginning is really peak 'men writing women' dude.

[@ronokoftherainlords4184]

Remember Jetstream Sam had thunder thighs bigger than the power grid.

[@quitpayload]

One of the things that annoys me about Anita's video that I haven't seen people talk about is how not good it is from a production standpoint. It's all a very corporate style that's competently done, but not done well. The sound is fine, the motion graphics are fine, the editing is fine, but it all comes across like nobody involved behind the scenes really gave a shit, including Anita. It's so obvious that Anita is just reading a script from a teleprompter. Not that there's a problem with having a script or using a teleprompter, but she could have made a little more effort to add some style. Other then occasionally cracking a joke, she's just staring blankly into the camera dispassionatly reading off of her script with very little on the way of emotion or passion. The fact that the actual points she makes in her videos are often just plain bad makes this even worse.

[@chromesucks5299]

Its reminds me of prager-u style videos

[@BurnettGaming]

re: "This is done by insecure dudes for insecure dudes" about game dev. I'm a mid-level game designer at a AA sized studio. I know a fair number of character artists for games. It's NEVER the character artists man or otherwise who make male characters butts small. It's a running joke that execs are cowards about male butts. It ain't us at the ground level doing the work who are afraid.

[@kylofoox1382]

Anita Sarkeesian, now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long, long time

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

I wish I hadn't heard it again.

[@Leopoldshark]

Obi-Wan Sarkeesian...I wonder if they mean Old Anita.

[@nanowithbeans2511]

No matter how much I don't like video essayists, I'm glad that people like Lindsay ellis and I do remember there's this small channel called "tallswordlady" and another queer media analyst that Hbomb mentioned raised the standards in terms of liberal feminist analysis, as well as the subreddits of respective shows that are more left-leaning being more accepting of really bombastic character designs.

[@weebwarrior9727]

The new tomb raider devs thought deconstructing Lara Croft meant literally, apparently

[@AryaWolf24]

One of the male character designs I remember with the thiccest of cheeks was dudes in the KOTOR games. The ladies had it too, but Bioware wasn't afraid to let -everybody- have some cake.

[@LimeyLassen]

I haven't touched those games in years and I still remember Bao-Dur being unreasonably hot.

[@Necroskull388]

@@LimeyLassen The VA deepthroating the mic for every line certainly helped.

[@Juel92]

Regarding the old school Tomb Raider camera angles, many platformers of the time had a very centered camera angle like that where you saw a little behind your character. Also it seems centered on her shoulders, not her hips.

[@uninstaller2860]

Yes, I was so happy when GTA: San Andreas made it possible to tilt the camera while you were driving. In Vice City driving uphill on the on the lane for oncoming traffic was always a gamble

[@flamemasterelan]

I think chat mentioned Zelda, which centers on Link's head (as an adult), but Zelda also had (practically) no platforming elements in it, so seeing the floor wasn't nearly as important.

[@The3biscuits]

We had to watch her videos in highschool. Her lying about the games she talked about and having shallow, poorly supported arguments about a medium she's on record saying she doesn't give a fuck about really made it easy for people to shit on her online.

[@urahi830]

wow everythinig fucking goes in US schools

[@n0etic_f0x]

Yeah I definitely would not support this as academic. It’s shallow and preachy. Even if I thought everything was spot on this is not made for classrooms.

[@gamedude412]

Well that because She was the pretty tits and ass for a guy named Jon Mcintosh not the real critic None of her work after then break up is on the same level

[@grmpf]

"a medium she's on record saying she doesn't give a fuck about" Wasn't that some wildly misconstrued thing pushed by GGers? Edit: lol 18:06, there we go

[@periwinkle6676]

You actually had to watch her?

[@dracocrusher]

The Catwoman example is the dumbest. She's literally defined by being overly sexual, it's a huge part of her character that she's extremely flirty and hams this crap up. I mean, she's a comic book character, you know? She's meant to be exaggerated and overly stylized in her mannerisms, but when they give her focus she's still someone capable of a lot of depth and characterization outside of that. It's like how Batman's persona is being really dark and grim as 'The Bat'. This is Catwoman's persona, it's how she acts with the mask on that (generally) separates her from how she is with the mask off because she embodies the idea of this catty fem fatale, just like how Batman embodies the idea of this unbreakable inhuman force that exists to scare crime off the streets.

[@Mongrelntruder]

catwoman’s orgin story for the longest time was that she’s a dominatrix it’s a very deliberate and essential part of her characterization

[@marocat4749]

yeah but anyone has dumb takes, including vaush in some of his media takes. She seems rather medocre and, i prefer her neither harassed nor blown that up.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

Yeah, using a comic book character that was put in a video game probably wasn’t the best example for her to use.

[@shandy6198]

@@kaylemathewcomendador6964 I think there's valid things to say about how characters get adapted into video games here. It's a common problem in manga -> anime adaptions where adding camera movement, voice acting and simplifying character art can cause a scene that was originally sexually neutral to become sexualised. I think it's fair to say (Without reading the comics or playing the Batman games) That animating Catwoman's gait/iconic poses may emphasise the titillating parts of her character without doing the proper groundwork with her characterisation.

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

@@shandy6198 Yup, manga & comics have a habit sexualizing their female characters more than necessary. But it’s weird how Anita framed her point in the video. I guess the script needed another draft.

[@LimeyLassen]

I never noticed it before, but Anita's videos kinda have femcel vibes. Like at least some amount of sex-negative feminism from the 00's just came from envy of women who could pull off revealing clothes and not get bullied for it. Her example of a "relatable" female character is a depressed teenager in a grey hoodie and converse.

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

If you're a leftist then why are you calling women who get bodyshamed for wearing revealing chothing envious? What do you have against plus sized women

[@PatrikPatrick-zw5wj]

Are u anti feminist

[@BalbazaktheGreat]

Holy shit that Kotaku article was gross.

[@retror.d.1630]

Bayonetta is extremely sexualized, but I see her as a badass woman who kicks ass and it’s sexy at the same time. I don’t understand why this woman it’s treating these characters like they all have to be walking around in a burqa. 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@imafckigndragn967]

The weird thing though, once Laura got started she felt way more like a badass in the remake than she did in the originals. She was stealthing around cutting people's throats and ninja-killing everyone with guns and her axes. She felt really weak and easy to die at the start but she quickly evolved into the usual gun-toting badass that we're used to. The game designer made it more weird with that creepy interview than it every felt playing the game. Yeah there were times when she was in danger and some gruesome deaths if you fucked up, but it felt really good when you pulled off some crazy action hero shit and felt like a badass. And yeah, shrinking her boobs was dumb and un-necessary. People's obsession with hiding and shaming private parts is just weird...

[@marocat4749]

And its not a problem, make her own it and , you have the best fanservice and it making her character more badass and feminine alike?

[@futurestoryteller]

Technically the problem with arguing against the idea that her body can't be less sexualized by reducing the proportions, because women of all possible proportions exist (and have sexuality) naturally, is that Lara does not exist naturally, and her proportions were expanded to make her more sexualized. It's a context reductive analysis.

[@phantomzxro1]

I feel you are speaking more to the overall combat of the game which was great and yes, she was a threat. The story was what felt off and didn't line up to me.

[@imafckigndragn967]

@@phantomzxro1 The story was kinda silly as she goes from helpless girl to crazy badass in like a day. But to be honest, Tomb Raider was never a game strong on story, so that didn't bother me that much. It's not like the original Tomb Raider was an amazing narrative.

[@phantomzxro1]

​@@imafckigndragn967 I don't believe Tomb Raider was ever destined to win a "Best in Story" award. The remakes aimed to establish a new characterization for Lara Croft, aligning with a more developed narrative that i feel fell short of what they were trying to do. The difference lies in the fact that the originals primarily focused on exploration and wasn't trying to be a narrative shaping of Lara Croft.

[@dracocrusher]

I don't know if there's a game where the male character was assaulted, but that unironically does happen in Berserk. And it's handled WAY the fuck better than I've ever seen female sexual assault handled because they actually take the time to show the effect it has on Gutts and how he slowly overcomes the scars from that event over time. Like Gutts doesn't just immediately try to rush into a relationship or something like a David Cage character, he's terrified of getting close to people after that! He doesn't even want to be touched, and when he finally does fall for someone he's super awkward and weird about it. Sure, it overuses the trope hard early on, but usually sexual assault feels like a fetish or something? With Berserk, it's an active obstacle that people struggle to overcome over the course of the rest of their life.

[@jackmcglion8337]

Flemeth from Dragon Age is a male character who is raped.

[@whichcache2517]

When I thought of “male character gets assaulted”, I thought of Alucard in Season 3 of Castlevania. The bit where his need for companionship is cruelly exploited in order to attempt killing him. He manages to get himself out of that situation, but it ends up scarring him, drawing a parallel between him and his father’s distrust of humans at the start of the series… Which lasts all of like 5 seconds before the next season starts and he’s helping people out like he would’ve done before meeting Taka and Sumi, making both them and the assault in question completely pointless.

[@themightymcb7310]

Tbh I really only found the SA scenes that happen after the eclipse to be gratuitous and unnecessary (e.g. the goat demon cult thing, Farnese and her horse, etc.) The rest are pretty essential to the plot.

[@lokimiguel2452]

Nah it absolutely feels like a fetish in berserk

[@lokimiguel2452]

Guts got raped and became a badass casca got raped and got turnt into a vegetable

[@shemshate]

Kane and Lynch is an odd reference for third person ass cams when in one of the levels you're naked and only patchwork censoring is covering up yours and your friend's junk.

[@lolusuck386]

It's literally the opening level iirc

[@dracocrusher]

I feel like Vaush kind-of nailed the weirdness of the Anita video. It's the difference between sex/body shaming and narrative framing. There's bad ways to handle a character design, of course, but you can get away with a lot? But it's in how the camera and narrative treat those things where it feels like it really matters. It's like how in Transformers, Megan Fox's character isn't written to be overtly sexualized or anything. She's a skilled mechanic with a pretty interesting backstory where her father was a car thief and it caused all these problems in her life that shaped who she is as a person. There IS stuff there. But all people remember is the camera oogling her body like a complete creep and that impression supersedes the entire text of how the character is unironically written to be. It literally reduces her from a more interesting person than the main lead into being just a sexy love interest for horny teenagers to obsess over.

[@grmpf]

I see you, too, remember that Lindsay Ellis video.

[@dracocrusher]

@@grmpf It's a genuinely good video, lol! I'd highly recommend that series for anyone interested in film theory.

[@ZalvaTionZ]

​@@dracocrusherWhat's the video title?

[@dracocrusher]

@@ZalvaTionZ The series is called "The Whole Plate" by Lindsay Ellis (referencing a line from Transformers 1) and the video I'm talking about specifically is called: "Framing Megan Fox: Feminist Theory Part 3 | The Whole Plate: Episode 7" Super good series, again, would super recommend checking it out in full. It also uses the film(s) in other episodes to talk about Auteur Theory, Genre, "The Problem with Lady Robots", Queer text/subtext, and Marxist analysis. It's honestly a shame Lindsay left KZbin because it actually felt like she really understood this stuff in both how it worked and, more importantly, what it actually means in real world terms.

[@ZalvaTionZ]

@@dracocrusher Thank you! I'll give the series a shot. I've been interested in viewing Lindsay's content due to how well regarded it is, but I've bounced off them for whatever reason. I mainly work with characters and design in animation for a living so this topic is pretty close to heart. Hope it clicks for me as I haven't stumbled upon a good analysis that addresses the issues I have on it so far.

[@wile123456]

Vaush' editors are his worst enemy. Uploads controversial video on the main channel, then refuses to upload the important followup video there and kills it off in the limbo that's the second channel, thus not fighting the controversy and leading to years of misunderstandings of vaush' position

[@gaphic]

the 'these poses are ANATOMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE' critiques got SO INSANE, oh my god. i personally recreated some of the more supposedly 'egregious' comic covers out of sheer desperation to shut people up

[@bartofii]

best time was that spider-woman alternate art cover. People acting like they never put "peter parker" in a similar position (you know all fours in some awkward crouch with ass in the air).... but then people pointed out all the cover art with his ass in the air and "impossible skin tight attire" leaving very little to the imagination. People who clearly didn't pay attention and had no understanding of the subject matter just prattling away to get clicks

[@darkarchonisme]

and shitting all over a famous artist for the crime of...making erotic art and doing so well enough to be famous at it@@bartofii

[@jonathanfigliuolo8754]

The problem with Sarkeesian that seems to STILL not be said to this day is that she was an obvious grifter; tactically, what she did was no different than Rubin, Dore or Kasparian - she presented herself as a "member" of a given group and then made every effort to shit on that group... ...meanwhile, she was never actually a "gamer" (which actually makes her worse than them). Vaush, super disappointingly, gives her a pass on that with a "clipped out of context" hand wave, but ignores that is why she constantly gets basic points of fact wrong or engages blatant misrepresentations. Great example - if you are a gamer, then you know why the camera angle sits lower for early Tomb Raider games (which Vaush rightly points to in this video); the game wouldn't *work* with a camera angle where you can't see what was being presented because of the platforming/puzzle/trap elements. The issue with the Hitman flub (also mentioned in this video, but not enough) was not simply whether it was an opinion on completely optional gameplay, but that the Hitman series actively discourages you from that by penalizing your score - her argument wasn't just bad and based on a minsrepresention - it was outright wrong. Moreover, this is why she never makes the better argument that Vaush seems to be begging for - that is not what she is there to do. It is trolling presenting itself as intellectual discourse. Granted, threats of violence against her were totally unacceptable, but there is also an argument to be made that she made a lot of money being a victim - if Vaush, or anyone, is going to really take a dive into this topic, it should be done with an understanding of the full context of the matter, or at least, a desire to have a full understanding of the matter.

[@ameddayr]

i think that's nonsense. she clearly was a gamer. i heard an interview with her on the idle thumbs podcast back then, and she had a surprisingly good sense of humor. also her podcast gives a better idea of who she is (I haven't listened to it since some of the early episodes, though). for a second there I thought she shared a podcast with brianna wu, lol. 😅 her feminist frequency videos were pretty dry and humorless, which was partly a result of her getting so much flak when she was humorous. i think she had every right to be wrong about things. it's too bad there was never a proper chance for critical discourse about her videos back then. there was too much polarization. there's no question that she gained attention and money (per Kickstarter) for the position she found herself in, more so than for the quality of her work. that's the culture wars for you. i'm glad she stuck it out. and hey, she did deliver what she promised.

[@jonathanfigliuolo8754]

@@ameddayr "i think she had every right to be wrong about things. " OK, *that* is nonsense. She took money as a "subject matter expert" to make videos on the subject to be used as educational material - explicitly. She has no business getting points of fact wrong in the same way that if you pay a mechanic to fix your car they have no right to being wrong. In fact, there is no place anywhere where this would be an acceptable position to have. It was a grift in the same way that Anna Kasparian can't claim to be a progressive and then bitch about the homeless and shoplifting in the manner that she did. Offering her any sort of pass for being wrong is aiding and abetting that grift.

[@EllipsisMark]

Over doing any trope is bad. Over doing any trope subversion is bad. Over doing anything is bad.

[@Zarnirox]

I think the game Hades is still one of the best examples of "No objectifying, just make everyone hot!"

[@ryanweible9090]

baldurs gate 3 also has strongly run that one.

[@Zarnirox]

@@ryanweible9090 Yeah, that's one of the things I keep hearing about it. I still need to play that eventually.

[@Guy-cb1oh]

That's most Anime.

[@tapioca8574]

God I remember seeing so much misogynistic stuff from pop feminist stuff like that Tomb Raider dev back then and that causing me with my egalitarian predisposed young boy brain to be vulnerable to bad faith invocations of egalitarianism from right wing grifters. When I made a leftward shift it wasn't an ethical shift but a shift in systemic analysis that informed my change. The same thing for many of my closest friends from that time. Most the friends I was closest with at that time who were all libertarian gamergate types are now libertarian socialists and all had this exact same experience.

[@boianko]

How did that shift happen. My friends from that time who got sucked into that hysteria are all still pseudo-alt right "edgy humourists" still and I have no idea how to get them to see they're being dumb as fuck.

[@tapioca8574]

@boianko Happened to a few of my friends, too. Probably because the friends who left the right were largely people who I regularly had small debates with on how to best address issues. It was the friends I had who like me had a clear focus on egalitarian principles who were sucked in by bad faith arguments playing off the weirdly common sexism of early 2010s pop feminism that became lefty over time. Had a few friends I didn't really regularly have any real debates with that ended up becoming fashoids. No real saving those types, unfortunately. It's about the ethical principles underlying the views rather than the coherence of the views.

[@highshelf]

46:13 the idea that being a sexual entity and a human entity are mutually exclusive is an incel take

[@MarkArandjus]

I recall disliking a lot (not all, but a lot) of the Feminist Frequency videogame tropes vids back in the day. Not because they were feminist, but because they were bad analysis. And prudish. I was (and am) a huge fan of channels like Lindsay Ellis, who I felt really dug under the surface and understood media and made insightful analysis while FemFreq were just kinda bad. Especially since I'm a big fan of the Hitman series and her understanding of the franchise was just... casual at best. I remember writing a big blog post on Tumblr back in the day with constructive respectful criticisms of her points... but then didn't post it because I realized I'd be adding to the mob of GamerGate anti-SJW dipshits. It was a bad time for media discourse :T

[@shis1988]

Lindsay studied cinematography, she knows what she's talking about.

[@comyuse9103]

maybe i am a bit of a doomer, but i think it is still a bad time for media discourse and i doubt it'll get better soon. you still see people arguing that sex is evil and women belong in a specific box from a faux-feminist viewpoint. breadtube seems to generally be an oasis of actual media literacy, but if you take any of the conversations of media vaush has started to twitter or something and you'll be flooded by dipshits.

[@stephennootens916]

Lindsey Ellis always felt more focus with her video while Anita Sarkeesian often came of as if any suggestion of male sexual desire was evil and a threat to women.

[@jasontau1]

This perfectly encapsulates why the Tomb Raider movies are such a disappointment on topp of removing all the fantastical elements to be ''mature and series''

[@bpdmf2798]

The hate against Anita was crazy at the time. Hey stuff was straight up garbage though. All I really remember is her trying to find a way to look at Batman's butt while he was wearing a damn cape. You know what you can see on him, big bulging arms, you know, a part of the make body that women look at the way men look at butts. I found her criticisms to be a stretch at best with a nugget of truth behind it.

[@Lambda_Ovine]

The problem with Anita's approach being so surface level and just limited to pointing out examples and say "this objectification and this is objectification" rather than explaining the elements of objectification and how it differs from showcasing female sexuality in a nuanced way, is that it consequentially vilifies female sexuality expression in media AND makes feminism appear hostile towards men, or basically anyone sexually attracted to fem people, on the grounds that if you find/make a character hot and they happen to be female, regardless of context, you're objectifying them and you're doing a misogyny. I personally don't think Anita ever believed that or wanted to say that exactly, but if you caught her videos and you didn't know any better, you can't help but to leave with a form of that conclusion. It would've been far more useful for everyone if she gave the viewers the tools to differentiate between problematic media and just media that is representation of feminine sexuality. It's tragic, because to me, one of the most compelling things about feminism is its argument for sexual liberation, both male and female, which is repressed under patriarchy

[@wfchannel4673]

one of the biggest problems with anita sarkeesian's analysis was that she assumes that tropes are inherently negative. tropes are neutral. they can be negative, but also be positive. frequently they're lazy shorthand, and that discussion can be worth having. but used well, they can become commentary on those assumptions and biases.

[@EnderPigMan]

Vaush resurrecting gamergate for the 10 year anniversary

[@crassiewassie8354]

I feel like the capes covering ass thing is kind of weird? I do agree that some men are flat as a board and a cape isn't covering their lack of fortune but like Capes cover your butt by virtue of being capes? You cant wear a cape or trench coat or tunic without covering your butt.

[@Houtont]

Coats are literally the thing you put your edgy mc in, it'd be weird if they had an ass in one. AS really sucked at picking examples.

[@Juhz0r]

It would be interesting if Vaush covered a few more videos from different people from that era to see how discourse has changed since then, what arguments are agreeable, and where there's disagreement.

[@amellirizarry9503]

I like it how the thumbnail makes it look like she's responding to Vaush 🤣

[@franklsuarez]

I think the key is to deal with envy in a proper way. When I see someone like Sam Sulek, I'm "Damn, he is ripped" and feel motivated. I'm not mad that he is ripped. "Strong people don't put others down. They lift them up." Michael P. Watson

[@Lolzosaurus]

Yeah, this was basically my core issue during that time. I have always opposed bloody SWERFS and later on TERFS but you couldn't really get your arguments across because it would get washed out by the massive hate campaign. It was not just Sarkeesian in my opinion, but I believe you did touch on that. A lot of that era's popular feminism was flash in the pan and leaned hard into SWERF territory. The overal vibe nowadays does give me the impression, that has changed somewhat. I see a lot less slut-shaming coming from people calling themselves feminists. But hey, being exposed to this type of feminism and seeing people dissagree not always for the right reasons, that's helped me define my values.

[@AmanojakuX]

As somebody who has complained about how bad her actual critiques are for *years* AND also donated to her Kickstarter because I absolutely couldn't let chuds shout her down, I find this video incredibly validating.

[@warriorblood]

She was basically a tourist clutching her pearls upon anything that seemed too feminine in games and labeling as sexist with dangerous real life repercussions. I remember the last time she got roasted online was when she was appalled that the female mandalorians in the Mandalorian show were using "boob" armor according to her.. just imagine someone that puritanic telling you what's wrong in media.

[@jefftonsman]

Nah boob armor is dumb

[@kurtacus3581]

​@@jefftonsmanit's the least "boob armor" ive ever seen, id hardly classify it as boob armor considering male mandalorians have essentially the equivalent of peck armor, and mandalorians armor in general is highly impractical considering it covers so little of the body. It also ignores that one of the most prominent female mandalorians, The Armorer, doesnt have boob armor at all

[@Blacktoothoneil]

@@jefftonsmanbut they aren’t using boob armor. That’s the problem with her criticism, she’s WRONG. The mandolorian women were just wearing regular armor that conforms to their body shape, it was in no way over emphasized or impractical, it’s like saying a woman in a Kevlar vest is wearing “boob armor” because the Kevlar conforms to how their body is shaped. She was basically getting mad at the fact women have boobs in general.

[@hjf3022]

​@@jefftonsmanwhy? Or why is it dumber than any other stylised body-fitting armour?

[@jefftonsman]

@@kurtacus3581 still dumb

[@Rawr1752]

It really does bother me that a good amount of people have that sort of attitude that someone can't be sexual, and serious as they same time. Neither one is exclusive. It says more on people who can't see someone with a more curvy figure as a serious protagonist for x reason. The answer, as far as I've always been concerned, is to treat such a character with the same level of nuance that I'd treat anyone else. I enjoy some of the more slocky humor of like boob jokes and the like, but there is an understanding that a woman with a curvy figure is just a woman with different considerations to another woman. I really do agree with the idea that the best characters are the ones that can be both.

[@alexanderboulton2123]

Not a radical feminist, but a feminist and a radical

[@BenYork-UBY]

If you're wondering why gamergate became so obnoxiously antifeminist that it cringed itself out of existence.... this was why.

[@linusgustafsson2629]

Gamergate is just a boogie man. What it was in reality was regular people asking if it wasn't wrong for a journalist to sleep with a game maker and then review their game. But asking a woman if sleeping with a man could make her biased, was apparently hating on women. After all, no woman has ever lied, and they are always honest. Hinting that they wouldn't be honest, is hateful. And from that day on, gamergate existed and where the evil goblins online who hated on women. In reality of course, the same regular people are still around, and they still think if you sleep with someone you are going to review products from, you might be biased. Doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman.

[@Melonmancer]

@@linusgustafsson2629 I think you accidentally omitted the death threats.

[@stijnvth]

Having an ass ≠ sexualization and in essence there is nothing wrong with sexualization isn't necessarily an issue, just be frank about it. Nothing wrong with having a 'sexy' character design. Games aren't meant to be real life nor are games here to reeducate people. I hate this over fixation on these things. Surely i can and do respect women i think look great and even sexy.

[@nohbuddy1]

Bigger problem with the Arkham games was Harley Quinn getting the sexy nurse outfit when that was never her character. Also all the other main female characters outside of Oracle were designed the same way. Skinny waist, big chest, etc

[@flamemasterelan]

I thought the sexy nurse costume worked well for Harley. Like, she was doing it for a bit, it was a joke. I think Arkham City's treatment was more annoying, especially since every depiction of Harley since has been based on that.

[@sudazima]

the batman case is actually the inverse, he must have a cape and it would clip through his ass so they removed the ass. it would be hilarious to have your cape clip through it at all times

[@EroticInferno]

45:03 “next to her I’ll admit” Idk, it’s just as you said before… women tend to wear tighter clothing. I don’t see her as being “more sexualize” because she’s wearing clothing that women usually wear. She’s got full pants and a pretty normal tank top. I’d wear that outfit, I do wear that outfit. The larger “issue” is that these characters often don’t get fleshed out more than “sexy damsel.” :(

[@BloodyBulletShellz]

If you like content like this watch Liana Kerzner. Absolutely brilliant feminist, and absolutely brilliant gamer. Also gears does have female characters and they have the same camera angle as the guys. She's conflating game design with character design. Like also batman is caked up in the later arkham games, and female assassins in later assassins cred wear th long coats.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Also every female character I can think of from Gears is as much of a distinct character as any of the male ones are.

[@urahi830]

thank you, Anita Sarkeesian was just an undergrad with some good ideas but mostly poorly thought out ones, the hate (and to be honest also the praise) she got was just insane

[@stephenhargreaves9043]

Sarkeesian received her Master's in 2010, and Tropes Vs. Women launched in 2012. She wasn't an undergrad, she was a postgraduate.

[@urahi830]

@@stephenhargreaves9043 oh wow. That makes this legitimately embarrassing

[@justinokraski3796]

@@stephenhargreaves9043 I really hope it was in something completely unrelated to media analysis because she caused catastrophic damage to the left for years

[@t.i.5528]

She also said you can't be sexist against men (the worst rhetoric to ever come out of the left).

[@urahi830]

@@t.i.5528 you can't be institutionally sexist towards men, but yeah it doesn't really help saying it

[@JohahnDiechter]

She was a matketing grifter who had a partner write almost all of her content. The reason her critiques were shallow is that they only needed to appear righteous instead of being substanitive and addressing obvious arguments against her views. But, as I said, it was never clear if they were her views in the first place.

[@kapnikronik1458]

what you said about quiet, 100% true, the olny thing that made her cool was she was a good sniper, but there already is a cool female sniper in MGS story, sniper wolf. Quiet is the fast food version of sniper wolf

[@kapnikronik1458]

i dare someone to go back and play the original tomb raider, shits like dark souls with the worst camera angles ever

[@richardhunter132]

I watched some of Sarkeesian's early videos and I thought she made some good points. particularly about female characters in computer games not having as fully realised personalities as male ones; being put in passive roles; and being 'marked' as female with some stereotypical feminine attribute such as a bow. it's funny because I once did create a computer game myself, and I found myself falling into exactly these tropes, which shows the nature of systematic sexism

[@Fatema3006]

« You can’t see women as people if you’re sexually attracted to them ». Does that mean I see women as sex objects even tho I’m just a bisexual girl ? Her logic makes no sense.

[@JadeReloaded]

The funniest bit? Without gamergater hysteria, no one would have even heard of Anita and her videos. She wasn't trending or popular. No one gave a crap about her before the harassment started. The dudebros really streisanded this.

[@flamemasterelan]

Honestly, I said this all the time when I was posting on gaming blogs back in the day. The only reason Anita kept getting brought up was because it got clicks. If they had just stopped engaging with it, it would've died a quiet and unmemorable death. Now we all know her name because they chose to engage in a massive harassment campaign against her and other women tangentially or directly connected with the industry, then tried to spread it to comics.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

This! All of this!

[@YouthRightsRadical]

Let's give credit where it's due. Anita did a brilliant job creating that harassment campaign specifically to get the increased exposure. Much as I dislike her for what she did to the discourse, you kind of have to stand in awe of the way she manipulated her comment moderation in order to create the illusion of a harassment campaign and timed her video releases to coincide with major Gamergate developments to keep herself front and center in their minds.

[@ExtremeMadnessX]

@@YouthRightsRadical Any evidence for of that?

[@YouthRightsRadical]

​@@ExtremeMadnessX If you were genuinely interested in the answer to that, you'd already be aware of the evidence.

[@jacobhholt]

The male sitting and the female sitting hysteria was so patronizing, glad that period in time evaporated. The Left really was immensely enraged from the transition from Obama to Trump.

[@justinokraski3796]

Trump gave us something to actually be mad about

[@jefftonsman]

What are you clowns on about

[@jefftonsman]

​@@justinokraski3796what are you clowns on about

[@hjf3022]

​@@jefftonsmanthe unquestionable belief that a man sitting with his legs apart was about projecting power, and never about the fact that balls take up space in three dimensions.

[@hailey8941]

Okay I’m guessing you’ve never been stuck in the middle seat of an airplane between two men manspreading so far into your space so badly you have to cross your legs for hours. The entitlement of men never ceases to amaze me.

[@namisue7293]

About anitas butt point. Its the largest muscle in the human body, and therefore one of the easiest to grow. A flat butt means a physically weak character. Men or women

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

True! Especially for anyone expected to be doing any kind of athletics! My BF is a labourer. He climbs ladders all day. He's got a great looking ass.

[@flamemasterelan]

I feel like that's Vaush's point about butts.

[@lokimiguel2452]

This is a stupid point most of these characters don't have muscles

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

@@lokimiguel2452 One does not need to be built like an Amazonian to be in shape

[@krunkle5136]

News flash:. Everything, every character in a work of fiction is an object. The point is to play and experiment.

[@statboosts279]

my problem with Anitas criticism is that she just cites examples of things, and she's never really super Wrong, but she never dives into the question and thinks holistically about the medium

[@RavenDumpster]

I enjoy vaush's progression into talking more and more like peter griffin

[@pointlessspike3016]

My girlfriend is very hot but also I respect her as a person. I feel like I've broken reality somehow.

[@nikkorin]

The butt thing is so funny cause in Genshin impact the two characters with the biggest butts are men. And one of them also has big manboobs

[@Shammrye]

unsurprised I have f cups and a lot of people don't treat you like a human. shits fucked up

[@marlutteyestrelt3441]

Vaush's autistic howling at 23:47 was the highlight of this insightful video. I truly love how this feels like a time capsule back when gaming discourse was entirely different from nowadays, and I am glad to live in a time where we can look back at this and detest rightly the horrible actions of Gamer Gate and its disproportional hatred. Vaush truly putting into video and clearer words what I've felt for a while.

[@conroc01]

I dig boobs. Always will.

[@EpicPrawn]

20:12 Bullshit. I learned a LOT about Solid Snake's character from his butt.

[@marctech1996]

I actually think this is a really important video to make. Acknowledging how crazy and disproportionate GamerGate was, while also applying valid criticism to pseudo feminist arguments might show some people out there that a healthy balance can be struck on most topics, even if you once were on the extreme end of a debate.

[@chrisd.2328]

Batman's true origin story isn't his parents dying its the wayne curse of lack of ass.

[@flamemasterelan]

I'm less than 5 minutes in, and I really have to point out that Lara Croft had literally gone from "zero to hero" two games before the reboot. Tomb Raider Anniversary was a remake of the original with the story re-written to serve as Lara's first big adventure and set itself with the new continuity of Legends. The game actually deals with Lara's first time killing another human being (the most likeable of the villain's henchmen in a quick time event, on top of that). There was no reason for the Tomb Raider reboot.

[@RebekahSolWest]

If you want a much better feminist reading of video games, see Liana K’s channel (yes, the woman that Hasan called a femcel because she didn’t elaborate on her take). She actually has nuanced takes on representations of women in media, distinguishing between misogyny and ‘benevolent’ sexism, for instance. That said, Liana K is certainly a liberal, and apparently Sarkeesian is actually a leftist, so keep that in mind regarding their takes on broader issues.

[@VCV95]

Thank god for Wario and Solid Snake for packing cake along for the adventure. I personally have no cake because of genetics (the thing Hank Hill has, it's real and fucking stupid. Lots of lower back and tailbone pain), so being able to have an ass at all was great.

[@cormano64]

Just as it is with basically anything online, any legitimate criticism of her work is lumped in with the bigots. Which, in her case, were beyond vile. I still remember when one of her first videogame critique videos popped up on my KZbin feed back in the day. I was really excited because I've always been interested in any remotely serious analysis of games, so I clicked it. Bare in mind, that was a mythical time before her channel disabled comments. I remember being utterly shocked by how many death and r*pe threats were posted by the thousands below her video. I didn't recall there being comments so demonic even under convicted killer videos, so I really didn't understand at first what the hell was even going on. It didn't take long to get where all the bile was coming from, but boy was it shocking at first.

[@flamemasterelan]

This is always a thing that I point out and get ignored for. There's a lot of content right now that's rife for criticism, but I can always tell which ones are legit and which ones aren't by the warning signs. If I see someone complaining about Ghostbusters because they focused too much on diversity or for "woke points," I know to ignore that person. If they criticize Ghostbusters for being under-written, relying way too heavily on improvised lines between the characters, or not cutting down the scenes enough, I know that's a person who is actually engaging with the content. Likewise if you're talking about Peter Pan and your thumbnail is black Tinkerbell, I immediately distrust your opinion about things. And the culture war bullshit always drowns out the legitimate criticism.

[@cormano64]

@@flamemasterelan Citing the all-female Ghostbusters was a great choice, because it really did have everything to work greatly especially because of the amazing cast. But it was really squandered by being made as an movie-length improv session instead of a more solid story. Too bad too, because I can't stress enough how talented the main cast is. Now, I gotta point this out: "but I can always tell which ones are legit and which ones aren't by the warning signs." You're the exception, not the rule. Too many people on the progressive side are way too quick to throw any and all criticism on the anti-SJW basket because they can't be bothered to think critically about... anything, really. So, a lot of them just double down and defend things to the point of putting them into a pedestal as overcompensation for the perceived attacks. Case in point, the whole Last of Us Part II mess. Either it was the greatest thing created by man or the greatest crime against humanity, no in-between. Among the crowds of sycophants and haters, that is. Thankfully, even around those online debacles you can find properly thought-out critiques like NakeyJakey's one.

[@futurestoryteller]

Thunderf00t was 100% *the* evidence that humanity has no hope. Here is a man who is a scientist and when Anita said there weren't nearly enough strong female characters in video games his go-to argument was "Men on average have more upper body strength than women." This man is a scientist; applied no critical thinking skills at all.

[@linusgustafsson2629]

99% of the criticism was legitimate. It was just feminists that decided that to win the argument when they are wrong, they have to use those 1% mean hateful comments online, and group that up with the 99% legitimate criticism and call it all gamergate. I still to this date do not think I have seen any hateful comment towards her, but probably well over 100 reasonable and legitimate explanations on why she was a bad person.

[@futurestoryteller]

@@linusgustafsson2629 Sure, buddy