The Right and Wrong Way to Make a Manipulative Villain

[@Mangakamen]

Be sure to leave a like, a comment and share the video - It really helps the channel out, and thank you so much for your time :) Edit: I'm tired of the pink blood comments. I never said it was censorship, just that it reminded me of it. There is a difference. Please pay attention to what's being said. "The games were essentially oozing with style… And Pink blood. Oh yeah, killing teenagers in over the top fashion and fanservice are totally okay for M-Rated games, but blood? Ah, perish the thought. Reminds me of whenever Jojo would have blatant censorship of cigarettes - We’ve got muscular doods killing each other and disturbing imagery, but cigarettes!? OH MY GAWD! Priorities, am I right?" No where did I say it was censorship, it's a JOKE. Thanks for killing it.

[@crownedshyness9656]

Hope to see A.I. villains soon. I liked Ultron in Earth’s Mightiest Heroes compared to his other appearances because of his monotone voice.

[@X1AN1023]

That AI villains better add cortana, since i do want a video that includes her corruption

[@jaywerner8415]

That manipulative AI video sounds Awsome.

[@theblasblas]

Hey, just have to say, fanservice is definitely lower on the totem pole of things to censor than blood. I really can't understand some people's aversion to characters showing a little bit of cleavage. That being said, none of these things should be censored, but at the very least Danganronpa went about it in a fun and meme-y way.

[@Junirules360]

I feel like you really missed out from not adding Aizen and yes i understand its video game based but Aizen is just the definition of manipulative

[@dustyfedora]

I think the pink blood in Danganronpa became more of a stylistic thing than a censorship thing. I mean you can’t deny that it’s pretty iconic to the series.

[@LanieMae]

I think it’s confirmed it’s a stylistic choice to fit with the psychopop theme

[@limelimelimee]

I mean, it made its way over to Rain Code. It’s that iconic.

[@panlis6243]

@@limelimelimee spoilers for Rain Code ending: It's even better in Rain Code because it ties to the big mystery in that game but you get so used to it in danganronpa that you don't even think about it

[@Shyrringe]

It’s basically confirmed in Danganronpa 3: Future Arc when they use real blood

[@randomchaos69]

it was also done partly with censorship in mind since the old version of the game was so dark and gory they thought it would restrict the amount of players they could get so making it more stylistic gave them a bigger customer base

[@Sticksicle]

To me, Junko's line of "Can you even endure such despair? Who are you going to endure it for? For people who don't even care? For people who won't even appreciate you? Does that sound like hope to you?" Always sells me on why she's an amazing character but also why she's so dangerous. With that she literally got everyone except Hajime to rethink the plan and think the way she wanted them to.

[@colindowden2182]

Amazing character? Pfft she's as amazing as taking a dump.

[@nesiachan4534]

Like if she was my classmate ill reconsider stuff too tbh she know how to manipulate well

[@colindowden2182]

@@nesiachan4534 Manipulate my ass.

[@cht3253]

Me who gaslight cause that's what the world taught me : I would also be her follower

[@ShadyShadow14]

@@cht3253 what

[@solidskullz5736]

I think Lusamine is great. Being an manipulative mother and president makes her a great villain. She has a sense of realism to her and some people can even relate to having a mother like her. I like to imagine that Guzma works with her not just because she helps team skull, but because he suffered abuse from his parents and is drawn to lusamine because it’s familiar

[@goros2289]

Sun/Moon Lusamine is my favorite villain in Pokémon exactly because of what you said, her character IS believable. She isn’t cartoonishly evil or has delusions with world domination, she’s just a traumatized mother whose need to protect others slowly turned into abuse. In her own mind, she is the “hero” and anyone who stands up to her is a “villain”.

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

Or because she convinced him with her female charm (and maybe more...)

[@rich355]

Lusamine is like a lot of people in power. She'll like you and seem pleasant until you challenge her or even question something of hers even if its not disrespectful. I'm kinda disappointed that USUM are considered the definitive versions because although I do believe the gameplay is certainly better, the story takes a nose dive especially in regards to the Lusamine/Lillie relationship. In SM, they were the center of attention, but the story of USUM is pretty much about Alola's light and Necrozma which just isn't all that interesting to me personally.

[@ThatOneMotherfucker]

With Guzma's backstory, he was a talented battler. He wanted to become a team captain, but he couldn't. His strength was never acknowledged. Lusamine was the first adult to acknowledged his strength, which convienced him to be loyal to her. Lusamine was manipulative, only using him to get what she wanted. What i did like about USUM is that there was closure for Guzma because Hala watched him getting clapped by you again and said he would work with him to become a good trainer. He is a bug type trainer so his strength despite his skills were looked down upon. What probably pushed him to become the Team Skull leader was when his former group with a previous kahuna was wiped out by one of the guardian deities.

[@thorscape3879]

I played both games and the problem with Lusamine has nothing to do with how she's written. The problem is that the games themselves are poorly written and paced. I stopped paying attention and caring about anything SM had to say after getting the starter and USUM lost me when I realized it was a 99% copy of the first game.

[@nathanblackburn1193]

The problem with Junko is that we're never shown her manipulation fully and when we do see it in the anime, the anime cheats by using mind control, Junko is at her best in Danganronpa 2's final trial where she manipulates the DR2 survivors into giving up, pointing out that the "hopeful" option is to leave their friends comatose, lose their memories of the island and for Hajime to stop existing "Will you able to endure such despair? Who are you going to endure it for? For people you've never met before? For people who don't even appreciate you?... Does that sound like "hope" to you?" this is Junko's manipulation

[@toumabyakuya]

*"the anime cheats by using mind control,"* No, they didn't. UDG, Zero and even DR2 already setup Brainwashing as the way Enoshima got everybody else on her side.

[@getmeto50ksubsorelse46]

To be fair we do see it quite often. Every motive for the killing game hinges off of her manipulation, she uses the family and friends of the students to force them to kill in the first games, revealing secrets, etc. first game was nonstop showing her manipulation.

[@nathanblackburn1193]

@@toumabyakuya I meant that the "brainwashing" that Junko was said to do was implied to be her manipulating each Remnant of Despair personally instead of putting them all in a room and murdering Chiaki (who was stated in DR2 to not have been a student but that was retconned) and showing them the despair anime Mitarai made, the DR3 anime was too short to have detailed instances of each DR2 student getting brainwashed by Junko and so cheated by just using Chiaki's death and Mitarai's despair anime

[@toumabyakuya]

@@nathanblackburn1193 *"I meant that the "brainwashing" that Junko was said to do was implied to be her manipulating each Remnant of Despair"* Nope, Makoto uses the word "brainwashed" and the way he explains its effects, we the players can only assume that their minds were altered in some way. *"who was stated in DR2 to not have been a student but that was retconned"* Also wrong. All that is stated in DR2 about her is that she was the only student that didn't have a Real Life body outside of the simulation. This was a setup to her dying prior to the beginning of DR2.

[@nathanblackburn1193]

@@toumabyakuya DR2 never implies Chiaki was a real person it only states that she was an AI in the Neo World Program, and the term brainwashed doesn't strictly mean hypnotised or mind controlled I mean the way real life cults manipulate people is also called brainwashing, the games set up Junko as a devious manipulator who finds peoples specific weaknesses and the flaws in society and uses them to drive people into despair but then the DR3 anime is just like "LOL she mostly uses mind control videos" and the times when she does manipulate people either aren't shown fully like with Mikan or don't feel convincing like with Ryota

[@JannetFenix]

Weirdly enough, i never thought of Junko as "manipulative". I only ever was relieved that there was a game with a villain that did not have a sobby backstory to excuse their motives. A villain which was JUST twisted and evil, irredeemable. That being said, SDR2 created a PERFECT opportunity to create scenario where Junko's insight allowed her to break each and every single member of the class based on their weaknesses and insecurities. Their fears, their flaws, things they treasured - their depth of personality was one of reasons people cherished SDR2 so much. The writers of the anime simplified it to a void gimmick, a buzzword brainwash and were done with it, erasing so much potential not just of the story but characters as well. That is why, with countless others, I do not consider End of Hope's Peak to be canon.

[@Rikrobat]

I’m all for nuanced, “went down a bad path” villains, but sometimes it’s enjoyable when the villain is just twisted and likes causing pain and suffering because it feels good.

[@psycake]

Fully agree with you. I haven´t watched the anime myself and now I have zero interest to do so, thus I stil think Junko is a fascinating villain. She doesn´t need a sad backstory, she doesn´t need a reason or redemption, she is just fun as she is. She has so much personality and charm, that´s all that a truly great villain needs.

[@faultyvideos2215]

I mean... she DOES have a bit of a sobby backstory, but 1) many danganronpa characters have had it just as bad or worse in their own backstories (especially in SDR2,) 2) you REALLY need to go out of your way to discover said backstory, as it's mostly presented to you through the "Junko" free time event, which can't even be fully experienced on a first playthrough due to "Junko's" early death, or through external media like the danganronpa zero light novel, and 3) given danganronpa's story (as in the story of the whole franchise, not just the first game) and Junko's character in particular, it's entirely possible that certain aspects of her backstory, or even her whole backstory is entirely made up, either by herself or by some kind of outside force.

[@SirLuckySlime]

It feels like the only really canon things in this series were DR1 and DR2. The other things are still good, hell, V3 is my favorite entry, it just.. Doesn't feel like it fits too well with the established story

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

Don´t forget how they massacred my girl Monaca as well, making her a unholy combination of Hitler and Junko only for her to just give up her nonsensical plot (seriously why was her robot in the killing game?) midway through because she was fed up with hope and despair. Gekkohara wasn´t even her own character, just an excuse to bring Monomi back

[@dejinnthedjinn5311]

It still baffles me that Gamefreak tried to make Lusamine redeemable in USUM, especially since gen 5 had Ghetsis as a manipulative adoptive dad and never tried to make him better.

[@LordTyph]

I mean... they did with vanilla SM, look at Masters. It follows based off of her SM portrayal, I believe.

[@BJGvideos]

In SM she had a canon redemption story...we just don't see it play out. But she went to Kanto to recover, and it was said by Lillie that she was already starting to understand what she had done was wrong.

[@miyamura_kin9349]

@@BJGvideos because she was never truly evil, the problem with USM is that they try to do that while she is in her full mind, and not poisoned by an UB.

[@BJGvideos]

@@Jdudec367 Ultra honestly gutted her. It took away all the depth of character she had and made her wildly inconsistent.

[@BJGvideos]

@@miyamura_kin9349 She did very evil things though, so regardless of if she was inherently evil (which I don't think she was), her actions stand alone.

[@dspace4514]

What i like about Dahlia Hawthorne is that she is a manipulator whose plans actually failed Multiple Times. Its like Phoenix and Maya said: She had no victories. Heck even the man she poisoned survived, even though the poison was lethal. How do you fail at something like that?

[@g6826]

He survived? I thought he was dead and the trauma left Mia out of the courtroom for quite some time

[@Thecoolmeister2005]

@@g6826 I think they're talking about Diego Armando, not Terry Fawles.

[@Spore9996]

@@g6826 Terry Fawles deliberately poisoned himself to death once he figured out what was going on. Diego survived his poisoning.

[@sarafontanini7051]

yeah, unlike some others, Dahlia's actually kinda SHIT at being a villain. she's a horrible person but her ambitions outweigh her actual ability and when things fall apart she stumbles HARD.

[@BeanieBabyXx]

Yeah Dahlia definitely thinks that she can just bat her pretty little eyes and get whatever she wants so whenever she gets any pushback from people who aren't falling for it, she crumbles quite quickly. She's absolutely evil but she relies too much on enamouring those around her so they don't question the things she does, she doesn't actually think things through that much and let naive little Phoenix Wright unknowingly cheat a very horrible death at her hands. I think that's definitely what I like about her, she's flawless at first glance but underneath you can see all the things wrong with her as a person.

[@sentorus67]

I say one of the better villains from Danganronpa is Monaca Towa from UDG. She's basically if Junko was able to be the manipulative demon that narrative wants to tout her as. While Junko cheats with mind control, Monaca actually commits atrocities just to manipulate people into her grand scheme. The way she portrays herself is the most innocent little girl possible and plays into every sympathy card she can pull ( the fact she's in a wheelchair even though she doesn't need it is despicable) but when ever she bickers with someone she quickly digs into their most painful insecurities or deep seated trauma IE triggering a Survivor over a mild disagreement. Honestly I think Monaca is what Junko is supposed to be, but too much LOL RANDOM X!D got in the way over making a menacing presence.

[@whitethunder9064]

Yes! This! Monaca will always be a better villain than Junko in my opinion!

[@winged_cat_4571]

Yes I agree

[@-hello6177]

If you consider End of Hope's peak, yes absolutely. But otherwise I still consider Junko a lot scarier personally, Monaca is scary, but she's simply incredibly self-centered, her reason for evil is pride, not caring about what means she needs in order to acquire power and be respected and or feared. Junko is deranged and manic, her modus operandi is pretty much just practicing the deepest depths of malice for the sake of not being bored, which can hardly be considered a goal of any kind. Monaca is someone where reasoning with her is playing into her hand and making yourself a pawn, and standing in her way makes you a target. Junko is someone where even if you do not know she exists nor the inverse, she is already a threat to you, like a natural disaster. Throughout history, all the people who committed the "greatest" atrocities in our world were exclusively like Monaca, having goals to which they'd take any method, there is barely any example of someone driven by malice or desire to hurt that ever gets past being a small time serial killer with less than a handful or a couple dozen kills, because they simply don't have the drive to keep doing it for long periods of time or are too incompetent while being driven for their sadistic desires, many of them even stop and reform basically on their own off just not being able to stomach their actions after some time. Junko is that sort of personal malice and evil that most people can't even imagine being possible for a human being to be, but not simply for the sake of pleasure which can be sated through such actions, or even others, but because she'd be bored if she didn't do it, mixed with a super-human competence to take whatever she thinks through, and never hesitate. I would much, much rather take Monaca any day than Junko, Monaca is the kind of person that absolutely does exist and you probably interact with people with the exact mental configuration to be exactly like her under the right circumstances all the time. Junko is just different enough from anyone else to make her absolutely horrifying, but not too different that you can't imagine a person like her never existing.

[@marvelous_680]

I didn't expect Dahila Hawthrone to be here, but man, she's quite a terrifying villian in the whole franchise. She has a lot of failed plans, but she managed to screw half the main characters, even after death. Like goddamn..

[@JDubs1464]

Junko in DR1/SDR2: Oh she’s just built different, god damn Junko in DR3:DA: ….That’s it?

[@transcreatureofchaos]

Junko in SDR2 really was a great villain. The way she's able to fuck with the characters by trying to manipulate them into picking between two equally not great options is really interesting, while making that last trial incredibly eventful and a great sendoff to the best game in the trilogy (quadrilogy if you count Ultra Despair Girls)

[@MichaeltheArchangel1-w5n]

Except for Hajime weirdly. She isn't THAT good imo but she shone in that game. She even fucked with the main cast from the first game.

[@BJGvideos]

SM Lusmine was fantastic. She occupies a space shared with Cyrus and [PLA spoilers] where you want to beat them down for their evil deeds, but you also want to see them get help for their clear problems. You feel bad for them but not to the point where it inhibits the ability to see them as clear villains. And for them to *miss the point so badly* in Ultra was such a massive disrespect. I was glad in SM that she DID get help--the only villain to do so. She starts to realise she was wrong even before that, with Lillie telling you before they leave for Kanto that her mother has started to think more clearly. However it wasn't that Lusamine was being "influenced" by the toxin. More "affected by". The toxin doesn't control anybody's actions but rather enables people to act on essentially unfettered id. All of Lusamine's actions were undertaken because she wanted to, and in a way had always wanted to, in a dark corner of her mind. We all have negative impulses so it's not like simply having those thoughts made her a bad person before, but it skewed her ability to think clearly. If anything it's a parallel to substance abuse.

[@elespada9058]

Honestly, I wanted to write a comment about Lusamine, but you've put what I wanted to say into words better than I could. Also thanks for the point about Nihilego's toxin : many people dismiss it as "well she was controled/crazy", but it's more subtle than that (and "pokémon" and "subtle" don't generally go hand in hand).

[@ArtzyZero]

Completely agree, it's important for Lillie's and Gladion's characters too. Their struggles and how they overcome them don't have the same impact when the writers are trying to portray the woman responsible for their trauma as simply misunderstood and actually a hero, it's dumb.

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@ArtzyZero Agreed. Lusamine just lost her inhibitors due to the UB influence. Also, sucks that the games did next to nothing for her relationship with Mohn to have much, but if any, payoff.

[@angeldude101]

It was less that Lumine was "controlled" or "manipulated," and perhaps more accurate to say that she was _drunk._ The toxin could have lowered her empathy, but it's also possible that she always had low empathy, but still tried to do the right thing before encountering the toxin making it harder to control herself. I should also mention that alcohol is legally considered a neurotoxin. On Nihilego's side, the toxin is simply a defense mechanism. It made Lusamine less of a threat to it as well as more likely to protect it from other threats. There are many plants and animals that produce various chemicals to ward off predators, and in some cases even affect the behavior of those affected. Surprisingly little of Lusamine's situation is actually fantastical, and is instead disturbingly realistic, at least in the original games.

[@bubblecoffee7210]

@@ArtzyZero Honestly feels to me like USUM's writers somehow mistook Lusamine for the deuteragonist instead of Lillie

[@misterzygarde6431]

Enjoyable as she is, I do want to see Junko try start a killing game only to fail in spectacular fashion like if she made the mistake of bringing the Warner Siblings or Kirby busted in and wrecked the place. Given how Lusamine was dialed back for Ultra Sun and Moon and the game failed to adjust things. I think they should’ve just made her neglectful. Have her give Lillie and Gladion Cosmog and Type Null respectivel to send them on a Pokemon journey just so she can focus on countermeasures against the Ultra Beasts, even hiring Team Skull as body guards for both.

[@elespada9058]

About Junko failing to start a killing game, there's one old funny fanfiction where not only does she fail to kill a single character, ALL of her actions are misunderstood as trying to save them. She ends up with a Peace Nobel Prize, and crowned as the Ultimate Hope instead.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

I mean they did that in DR what if

[@TheSwordmanDrake]

@@elespada9058 dude I want to read that! it sounds so stupidly funny. Do you remember the name by any chance?

[@adepressedcupcake]

@@elespada9058 that sounds so fun, what is it called?

[@popeneiad7968]

@@adepressedcupcake putting this here in case anyone finds it

[@knightshade2654]

You pointed out exactly why I love Adachi so much; he is a typical fellow who worked hard his entire life but neglected his personality flaws, which eventually caused him to be thrown to a remote, country town. Also, seeing the course of events that allowed Adachi to trick Namatame is some of the best writing of coincidences that I have ever seen in any medium.

[@granmastersword]

given the setting of the game, one could argue that his neglect on his personalities flaws might not have been fully his fault, which makes it more terrifying and interesting for his dark path. Given how brutally serious Japan is about pursuing and excelling in academics, Adachi could have been one of those unlucky few who got drilled hard by their parents and society to only focus and care about having the absolute best grades at school, resulting in his social life being dead and with little to no chance to revive it as a result of his laser focused obligation at academics, which makes his life on Inaba feel all the worse

[@knightshade2654]

@@granmastersword Of course! Adachi mentioned at somepoint in his social link that his parents cared little for what he did as long as he earned good grades. Not only this is not rare in East Asian countries, it was likely exacerbated by Adachi, who was born in 1984, growing up after the Japanese asset bubble popped, resulting in decades of economic downturn. It is fascinating to think about how Adachi became the person we meet in Inaba.

[@Simpsonsfan1011]

Honestly when talking about Junko, it's honestly best to disregard the entirety of Danganronpa 3 since that series ignores continuity and consistent characterization for the sake of its story. Doesn't help the original writer was barely involved in the creation process. Also it's punishment time

[@dannysmi7162]

Also they ruined Mukuro

[@toumabyakuya]

*"since that series ignores continuity and consistent characterization for the sake of its story."* Funny you say so because the "brainwashing" issue was actually setup in DR2 and reinforced in both Zero and Another Episode. So the anime was just following what Kodaka himself had already written.

[@RappingNinja]

It really doesn’t do that.

[@monas.c5525]

@@toumabyakuya It was described as a CULT in drz ,It is bad writing because it simplifies all the problems of the characters into: "my classmate died" and there are other forms of brainwashing, you know Jonestown?

[@toumabyakuya]

@@monas.c5525 Yes, there are other forms, but that doesn't meant that that is what Kodaka was going for. Again, it makes so much sense that sci-fi brainwashing exists and that Junko used it because that would explain were Monaka got her hands on such a technology for her Monokuma helmets.

[@funtimewaffle]

i'd like to point out that junko actually does manipulate a few people, not just brainwashes them. she manipulates mikan because mikan has lived her life believing she's never been loved by anyone, so junko exploits that weakness by showing mikan 'love' and telling mikan that she'll be loved if she follows junko's will. she also manipulates the ultimate animator ryota in order to create the brainwashing video by, if i remember correctly, expressing her interest in his work and claiming she has the same goal as he does. i also remember that juzo was manipulated by junko, as he catches junko and threatens to turn her in, but junko exploits his feelings for kyosuke to get him to let her go. the brainwashing video was simply an easier way to get everyone to fall into despair, as it would take a lot of time to manually manipulate every single person. that being said, i do agree that resorting to dumb over-the-top supernatural shit like brainwashing makes her less threatening as a villain. i'd also like to add that in ultra despair girls she manipulates and takes advantage of the 5 (maybe just 4 cause monaca is monaca) kids without needing to brainwash them by exploiting their weakness of being abused by adults. also adding that junko did manipulate izuru too and turn him against the academy.

[@getmeto50ksubsorelse46]

I don’t think the brainwashing was supernatural or anything based on how the anime set it up. They had ryota explain that as an animator he understood how to use visuals and audio cues to manipulate and pursuade his viewer.

[@funtimewaffle]

@@getmeto50ksubsorelse46 well yeah i probably could've used a better word there, but what i meant was that the idea of being able to brainwash somebody by just getting them to watch a video is pretty much impossible in real life without special circumstances. in danganronpa it's treated like someone can heel turn their entire personality to literally kill thousands of people just by seeing one video for a little bit. i'm not necessarily an expert on the subject but iirc in reality it doesn't work like that. brainwashing irl is a lot more complicated and takes a lot more effort than just showing them a video. you have to keep them there watching that video for ages, and basically completely break them down as a person, and even then convincing them to kill another person let alone thousands would still be difficult. all i was trying to say is that easy brainwashing like that is an unrealistic concept you only see in fiction, and it makes junko seem to be more cartoonishly evil than a master manipulator that could gaslight everyone to do whatever she wants.

[@Nosretep]

Brainwashing Video was simply a Cognitohazard.

[@gracegrrl007]

@@funtimewaffle As a DR3 apologist, I would like to add that you are COMPLETELY correct about this--but, bear in mind Junko's mass brainwashing wasn't JUST showing everyone the brainwashing anime Ryota made. It was showing everyone the brainwashing anime AND forcing them to watch Chiaki, a classmate they all unanimously adored and had just been desperately trying to rescue, die a horrible, drawn-out, gruesome death that was orchestrated by their beloved homeroom teacher. That was part of Junko's plan and part of her manipulation: to set everything up so Class 77 was so mentally broken by being trapped in this room for what was likely HOURS, just watching their favorite classmate die and being unable to stop her, that all the subliminal brainwashing techniques she blackmailed Ryota into including can mold their brains easily. Does this do anything to change that they took away Junko's intense charisma and the whole brainwashing thing still makes no sense??? no not really, but it IS a bit more than JUST a video with some funky colors and weird noises; it is absolute despair, breaking a person so intensely that they no longer have the will to resist

[@funtimewaffle]

@@gracegrrl007 yeah thanks for the clarification, i'll admit i was only paying half attention at the end so i just assumed the whole thing didn't last that long, thank you lol

[@gtaranza7416]

Glad to see some rightfully deserved Ace Attorney representation in here

[@yoinkysploinky]

As it should- I honestly didn't expect to see Dahlia here but I totally agree with the points. She's a horrible bitch and that's what makes her great

[@Zetact_]

One issue that a lot of intelligent villains/characters have is that old adage that a writer can't really write someone smarter than themselves, so many people who try do end up falling flat. It's not a game villain but in the manga Kaiji, the best villain so far HAS to be Kazuya. He has a gamble with Kaiji all about how he manipulates a group of three friends. Kazuya has a cynical belief due to his past that everyone is self-serving to the core and would gladly let their friends die for the right price. To prove this, he makes the Salvation Game, a "friendship testing device" where, to put it simply, they all wear helmets that could kill them, are unable to communicate, and a randomly chosen "savior" needs to recognize that he is the savior, press a button to unlock restraints on his seat and press a button that all three can see (under a time limit). If the savior succeeds, the entire group gets to share a constantly increasing pool of prize money. But if the savior chooses not to rescue the others, he will get double the pot all to himself. So Kazuya includes a rule, as part of his idea that he always plays fair, that he wouldn't do anything to mislead the three. But what he DOES do is he sows seeds of doubt. In just one time he takes one of the players who was designated as the savior and temporarily makes it so he can't undo his lock - this seeds in all their minds that the player (their friend) was mulling over whether he should let the others die. Even though he rushes to save everyone once his lock is undone, it causes a breakdown in their friendship through the game. That one act is the only thing Kazuya needs to do to cause a domino effect of distrust.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

Oh, so in order to get the game going, he deliberately cheats and goes against his own word, because he knew in regular circumstances the issue would be solved easily and thus he has to directly interfere. Kind of like a certain someone in Danganronpa V3, who had to go against the game's rules because the only person that fell for their motive decided to target them instead and ended up failing nonetheless.

[@Blizz3112]

Dahlia is great, but people tend to forget Morgan Fey, the one who in the end, set up the final murder trial in the first place... and ACTUALLY twice almost managed to get Maya Fey in jail/killed...

[@aikikaname6508]

She was good and actually a more restrained and realistic old matriarch manipulator… but I will say Maya has her own private room in the jail at this point. Getting her in jail isn’t much of an achievement

[@kingbash6466]

It's kinda funny how both Junko and Lusamine's stories kinda get undermined by a future entry that attempts to justify their actions. EDIT: Okay in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have said justified for Junko. More like the anime was trying to give more of an explanation as to why she was a major psychopath.

[@dejinnthedjinn5311]

At least USUM are alternate universes so they can be ignored for SM's plot.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

I wouldn’t say Junko’s action were justified. When does it mention that?

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

@@prof.laytonfan764 pretty sure they never justified it in the anime either, except for "i can predict everything wich bores the shit out of me therefore i am commited to despair because despair is unpredictable". Like jesus, that scene with the Limo or the one where she kills one of her followers for the lulz to take over the Labratory made her look WORSE because she comes off like a rich girl that watched too much squid game and planned to recreate it like a evil Mr Beast not a manipulating genius

[@world_ender9500]

I don’t think Junko’s actions were ever justified by the story. The closest we get is the story about how she grew up poor and on the streets with mukoro which slightly formed her worldview. But even then, in that same backstory it’s pretty much made clear that she was bad from the moment she was born and that it didn’t matter how she was raised, the outcome would have been more or less the same.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

@@charnalk5572 the anime definitely doesn’t justify her actions. If anything, it makes her even more evil.

[@BradRLee]

It will never not be wild how they gave Junko like 7 personalities and not a single one is bearable. Truly a masterclass in annoying characters

[@theultimatetactician1712]

I think one is pretty BEARable

[@aishidove]

@@theultimatetactician1712 GOOD ONEE HAHA

[@gideonragnason6706]

And yet with all those "personalities" she completely fails to have one...

[@theultimatetactician1712]

@@gideonragnason6706 fr

[@gideonragnason6706]

Junk-o Enoshitma queen of mid and favorite waifu of shallow fans

[@HectorCotto97]

Ignoring the Dr3 anime for a moment, I think Dr2 Junko is her at her peak. At first she just starts as crazy and weird but the longer she speaks the deeper she digs into your head. She uses every possible piece of information against you and in Dr2 you get to see just how thoroughly she can wipe away any hope or positivity you might have had to hold on to. And to add insult to injury she mainly uses the truth to screw with you, sure she's not above lying but she finds the most enjoyment from crushing you with the undeniable truth. Junko Enoshima is just a straight up menace and that's only going by the things we've seen or know about from the games.

[@novacorponline]

One of the most important features for a manipulative villain is to make them *actually* manipulative. I have seen far too many manipulative villains who are masterminds only within their fiction. You can tell exactly what they are doing, and are going to do at all times, you can see through all their ruses, but arbitrarily the characters are just written to be too dumb to catch on.

[@tintor2]

Honestly Sephiroth manipulating Cloud into casting Meteor after toying with Tifa's memory blew my mind. By this, Sephiroth became a manipulator not only in the game but also in the movie where even his own remnnats are also labeled as puppets.

[@sekibankilover]

What I even love more about Adachi is that he's always written as the "shadow" of Narukami, literally being the opposite of him, even more with the P4 anime Ying Yang song talking about how Adachi and Narukami see the world.

[@amirgarcia547]

It’s also why they have the same Persona, Izanagi, except Adachi’s is basically the corrupted shadow version of him.

[@Late0NightPC]

Indeed, it's a pretty explicit parallel if you know some details about Tarot cards, which the game doesn't really hide it's love of with the Social Link names. Each character embodies their tarot card in some manner, often starting out reflecting the reversed card which typically has negative implications and slowly turning into the more positive upright form after you start progressing their social link, or they get their persona. Yosuke is the Magician, which reversed represents self-doubt, untrustworthiness, and deception, as Yosuke was unable to ever feel like himself as he struggled with the reputations others gave him and was deeply jealous of your ability to just "do anything", but by the end of the link, he finds that confidence in himself, recognizes his own skill, and becomes determined to be what he wants to be, not what others tell him to, which reflects the upright card's meanings of resourcefulness, potential and ability, and influence. Or alternatively, Kanji is the Emperor, which when reversed represents a misuse or abuse of power, an over-reliance on domineering authority, and a warning that you are letting yourself be controlled more by your emotions, and you need to let your rational mind take some control, which is clearly shown in his uber-masculine bravado, as he clearly has certain emotional desires and is attempting to put on that in-control persona to pretend like he isn't, smothering emotions with more emotions instead of confronting himself and rationally accepting who he is. Over time, he learns to be at peace with who he is, where it turns upright and represents stability, structure, practical authority, and invokes the image of "an older man who can be trusted for help", oftentimes a father. Adachi represents the Jester card, which only shows up in the Thoth decks, which are alternate versions that are more abstract and rely far more on interpreting what your result is, rather than having it relatively clearly laid out for you. But that said, the Jester is the Thoth version of the Fool, which is what Protag's card is. Upright for the protag, it represents freedom, idealism and the beneficial removal of harmful structures that oppress others, but reversed(or "the shadow of the card" in Thoth decks) it represents the childishness, irresponsibility, and harmful removal of order that leads to chaos. So Adachi is quite literally "What Protag could have become, if he had given in to nihilism and despair", as protag represents the positive elements of the Fool, while Adachi is all the negative harmful elements.

[@dustrose8101]

Honorary mention for Odin from God of War Ragnarok. You can really see his manipulation on display by how he presents as this meekish almost skinny grandfather type person but in both the optional reading and the main story he plays people like fiddles, like how he kept the dwarf realm dependent on Asgard or how he planted the early seed for Atreus to come to him later in the game.

[@daryno9048]

Oh god, the brain washing anime in DR3 was so terrible, especially when it was established in DR2 that many of the cast already lead pretty terrible lives or had things happened to them that could make them fall prey to a cult like figure like Junko. That would had been so much more interesting. Like in DR3 despair arc, instead of brain washing them all at once with the anime, the arc could had been about her manipulating them one at a time. But I guess the characters were too likeable that they didn’t want to risk ruining their popularity by going that route

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

The only thing DR3 is good for is giving fans REAL despair

[@juuchanIRL]

i consider the anime non-canon. the slice of life eps are fun but everything else, just ignore. there are too many plotholes in it anyway.

[@lukejennings1778]

@@juuchanIRL I also disliked the sudden 180 with The Tragedy Of Hope's Peak... Was Izuru the culprit, or just a bystander whose luck caused the last member to basically kill themselves?

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@lukejennings1778 yeah its pretty bullshit to g against actual canon to not have izuru, yknow the big bad of dr2, be a murderer and instead have the class....kill each other out of nowhere

[@toumabyakuya]

*"the brain washing anime in DR3 was so terrible,..."* Yet DR2 also setup brainwashing being the method used by Enoshima to turn all of the class 77 cast, what with Makoto saying so, quite literally might I add.

[@doomguy676]

I feel like if they addressed Lusamine's missing husband in the games they could have gone making her a twisted protector kinda angle in usum. The kind that doesnt want to lose her children or her beloved pokemon like she lost her husband so she does twisted and terrible things like psychcologically manipulate her children into staying with her, or freezing the pokemon so they dont get hurt.. It would be a more interesting motivation than whatever the heck we got in USUM.

[@mattm2451]

I've heard Danganronpa's pink blood is only a stylistic choice and not censorship, like how in danganronpa 3 future side has red and despair side has pink blood. I agree about 3 ruining Junko, it upsets me but it has a lot of potential for being rewritten and added upon and I look forward to reading those fanfics or even attempting to write it myself. It's Punishment time!

[@sxnbu]

Lusamine is a fantastic villian. she became so depressingly obsessed with ultra beasts after losing her husband that you almost feel for her, but the way she treated her kids especially Lillie just.. woo boy. & it feels weird that they tried to redeem her in USUM hhg & ngl i didn't mind the anime version of her (maybe bc i got into the anime b4 the games) but i totally get why people weren't a fan of it

[@incrediblefunk7220]

Only because "they tried to redeem her" last minute in the original SM too.

[@dorodo3856]

There's an even greater case of a "manipulative villain" in the Ace Attorney series. He is in the game which to this day was not officially localized (that being Gyakuten Kenji 2). There's a fan translation though, and I did play through it. Without any spoilers, all I can say is, that character is great. Probably my favourite Ace Attorney villain to date, and leagues above Dahlia in their craft.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

You mean the final villain in the GAA games?

[@fangirlapocalypse]

@@cosmicspacething3474 They mean the Investigations Series, the second entry. It's not localized yet. You can find gameplay of a fan translated version on KZbin. I don't want to spoil you, because I got spoiled and it kinda ruined it for me.

[@aurimartgarcia1721]

The first playthrough of the final case in AAI2 is amazing. It's a special feeling when you start to understand the rest of the cases.

[@marybonner7432]

I know who you mean and he's definitely one of the best villains in Ace Attorney. Great amount of depth to his character.

[@Kit-wh2hc]

yup, agree with you

[@jarreddean2094]

I still think Frank Fontaine is one of video games best manipulators I mean the phrase would you kindly being a command phrase is surprisingly good as I didn’t even think about why he said that it just sounds like please or thank you it sounded completely harmless and I didn’t even question it until I saw the room before Andrew Ryan and he basically help connected the dots

[@Ghostel3591]

Bioshock having 60s aesthetic also doesn't help as him saying "would you kindly" just comes off as being polite in "Ye dear good ol' friend from 60s" way.

[@castform7]

Lusamine was so interesting in SM. She enhanced a lot of characters around her and also everything about her villany made her so compelling especially considering she's the first main female antagonist. Which is why I'm so mad at the Ultra games among other reasons. Since Lusamine affected so many characters, her downgrade in turn gutted other characters. It's no wonder everyone recognizes Hau in USUM. He's the only one who got an upgrade. It was just so disappointing since I thought SM had one of the better Pokemon stories. Sidenote but I actually don't mind anime Lusamine because the anime writers did the bare minimum to make "good person Lusamine" a reality. (Also definitely agree with that last point. They say never stick your Onix in crazy but this the exception).

[@BJGvideos]

SM was fantastic and I don't know HOW anybody prefers Ultra to it!

[@strawdeath263]

@@BJGvideos Difficulty, features, and postgame, but SM definitely had the better story.

[@BJGvideos]

@@strawdeath263 It's weird. Pokémon fans say they want a game with a more mature story but then dismiss every game that does. SM was about kids fleeing from an abusive mother, herself suffering from severe trauma from losing her husband. Then there's Guzma's whole story as well. But people dismiss it as a baby game because the tutorial is a bit long.

[@angeldude101]

@@BJGvideos You forget self-medicating said trauma with substance abuse.

[@BJGvideos]

@@angeldude101 That too

[@brunolike8631]

I think it's intresting how you didn't even mentioned Ghetsis in the part where you talked about Lusamine, after all, Ghetsis manipulated a kid to make it believe in his ideals just so he could have a dragon. Or Cyrus wich manipulated his followers into thinking that they would have godly powers, when actually he was just using them so he, and only he, would have these powers.

[@BJGvideos]

Cyrus's ideal world would have others in it. He says as much in Platinum and it's even the last thing he says to the player character, that someday you'll awaken to that world.

[@knightshade2654]

Cyrus wants a world without emotion, which is why he said in the Distortion World. Ghetsis was an extreme puppet master whose goal was always and solely ensuring that he and his allies within Team Plasma would be the only ones with Pokemon. Ghetsis was absolutely abusive but distinct from Lusamine.

[@BJGvideos]

@@knightshade2654 Yes, a world without emotion or "spirit". But he never said he would be alone in it and I think that's a misconception of what he says to you in the base after his speech, where he said he was lying to his followers about sharing the divine power with them because they were all worthless. But that didn't mean he would be the only person in the new world. He says you and Cynthia will be there, and even says spirit will be ripped away from "those closest to you", people he doesn't even know, implying a greater population will be prepped for existence in his creation.

[@brunolike8631]

@@BJGvideos I changed it so it's accurate to the games, sry for the mistake

[@brunolike8631]

@@knightshade2654 I changed it so it's accurate to the games, sry for the mistake

[@arthurpprado]

One of the best examples I can think of is Funny Valentine, from Steel Ball Run. He is so good at manipulation that he even drove less attentive readers (A.K.A. most of the JoJo fanbase) into questioning whether or not he is the villain of the story. Not only that but he seems to manipulate the very media he is portrayed in, with huge and artistic panels dedicated to his speeches while his more unsavory actions are tucked away in tiny panels which can be quickly dismissed by the audience

[@risktorise2103]

Personally I believe Dahlia to be the best manipulative villain here . I'm not too familiar with the other like Junko but Junko got alot advantage like monokuma and his robot to enforce her plans. While Dahlia only use her wits to get what's she want.

[@davidssubwaycookies190]

Mostly her looks though, she consulted iris for most of her plans. People were only infatuated with her false self. It seems more like her brashness and impatience that leads to her constant failures

[@akumatenshi8841]

Except Junko made Monokuma and all those robots

[@LanieMae]

@@akumatenshi8841didn’t UD kazuichi do that?

[@da45r]

I think lusamine had a way better character and even foreshadowing lillie to br associated with nihilego due to her design portraying a nihilego that lusamine articulates herself, it foreshadows the obsession that she has . I feel mangakamen either undermines the some of pokemon plot. Though I can agree USUM ruined lusamine, thank God it's an alternate universe

[@akumatenshi8841]

@@LanieMae who would've built the brainwashing machine of the machines were built by Kazuichi and Kazuichi was brainwashed

[@goroakechi6126]

Danganronpa actually uses Junko well, despite her being milked, and not in the fun way, ESPECIALLY in Danganronpa IF, and 1, 2 and the 3 anime. Constantly, CONSTANTLY enforcing and reinforcing her threat. 3 actually makes you hate her far more effectively than anything else.

[@Mangakamen]

I disagree, since we're not talking about villains and hateability, we're talking about manipulation.

[@goroakechi6126]

@@Mangakamen That’s fair, I was just gushing a bit. But even in THH, you can track a clear path of her targeting all three normal executions and why she wants to get rid of them. -Chapter 1, Sayaka and Makoto are way too compatible and could sink her plans there and then. Put Sayaka’s career on the line, and she caves. -Chapter 2, Chihiro’s way too good at tech stuff. Therefore, put him in a hostile environment where if he does express the truth, he’s gonna have a target on his back. -Chapter 3, Celeste can end the game early through sheer prowess. Just pay her off.

[@nadox5259]

@@Mangakamen well, you should read Danganronpa Zero. You might change the opinion on her. Trust me it's a great novel, also canon. As for brainwashing, it is a thing throughout the entire franchise, so I don't see the issue here.

[@PancakemonsterFO4]

@@goroakechi6126 She still used pretty common motives to achieve her goal of targeted elimination (except for Aoi/Sakura with Aoi failing to end the game and Makoto sacrificing himself for Kirigiri and his luck dodging the punishment. In both cases Junko actively manipulated the students to her favor so they would be more succeptable to the motive)

[@kaylemathewcomendador6964]

@@nadox5259 Most people’s problem with the brainwashing was due to it looking like a cop out from Junko manipulating each remnant one by one. Instead she (or the anime crew) uses the easy way out due to the limited amount of episodes.

[@Crackhead_Hours]

0:23 bro played the exact song I was thinking of lol. When the speech started at the beginning it started to play in my head and then it played out loud!

[@Arthas30000]

Ace Attorney does have some great manipulators. Matt Engarde came to mind first, just because how shocking that twist was. In AAI2: Prosecutor's Path, lots of people love the final villain because of his manipulative nature (though I'm not a fan) and in GAA Chronicles, it's the same with the final villain as well.

[@Cyntaria]

Honestly Dahlia deserves her own video. Her character was just so well written and the rabbit hole of just how fucked she is, how many people she fucked up and how deep her schemes are is amazing

[@peridrawland5955]

PoV: Karmen calls you cringe and praises the other villain next to you

[@Mangakamen]

More like any Life is Strange title lol

[@Odd2169]

It's punishment time! Also, great video. You did an awesome job breaking down these villians. I did skip the person section since I intend to play that one myself, but you did a great job as usual.

[@joshuagoldsmith7240]

I’m not a good writer by any means but I love writing villains with some manipulation in them and I in particular love making villains that are relatable to the reader. So those are my favorite manipulative villains. One villain I’m working on is manipulative to a T but the odd thing is he always tells the truth save for a detail or two but even then he never withholds what will happen for instance he’ll tell someone is going to die at a specific place and time but leave out how they die. He can see the future and by simply saying the truth it gives him power.

[@Tankdestroyer467]

Can't forget Palpatine. Literally manipulated the Republic and later the Separatist to create his Galactic Empire.

[@amirgarcia547]

And also of course manipulated Anakin into becoming Darth Vader by influencing him into turning to the dark side.

[@AlguienCualquieraDelMundo]

Literally the most successful evil guy I ever seen in any media. The man did a better job in being evil then the devil itself with all his sins.

[@sharzinlalebazri5673]

I just wanna give a shout out to my boi Mephiles the Dark from Sonic 06. The guy is a master gaslighter and can easily take advantage of people's desperation, despair and anguish to move them around like the little puppets that they are.

[@OneSpicyLoaf]

2:55 i did NOT expect junko to sound like an opera actress instead of a v-tuber

[@MegaLpso]

What? Lusamine is only doing those things cause a pokemon messed her up?? That's incredibly disappointing. I actually thought that she just became a abusive mother after losing her husband, and I like that way more. It's actually something that sadly happens in real life and people can relate to that.

[@amirgarcia547]

It’s both since the neurotoxins caused her negative traits to grow even worse, and thus she became obsessed with the beasts as a way to cope with Mohn’s death.

[@peachii3124]

like the other reply mentioned, it's a mix of both. all the neurotoxins would do is draw out her already existing dark desires from the corners of her brain, and make her act on them.

[@draconicfeline6177]

Plus addiction can make monsters out of anyone - and she was addicted to nihilego.

[@Argalipete]

I think a great manipulator villain in a show is emperor belos from the owl house if you haven't watched you should it is a good show it may have some booring episodes but most of the episodes are great and fantastic especially once you get into the second season it is great.

[@whackareal]

Cool video! I’m trying my best to write a manipulative character myself so I’m sure this will come in helpful

[@A0zo0ra]

Same! For me, this particular manipulative character I'm currently writing hides behind a kind yet somewhat timid facade. (Does anyone have advice for that specific type of character, or..??)

[@goldenyoshistar1]

Pokemon Black and White's Ghetsis. It's obvious if you read the dialogue, but as a 10-11 year old kid, you skip past the dialogue so the reveal is a surprise. Mario games are not known for their high quality of villains. Bowser is big bad evil, although we should give note that in Dream Team he does pull a fairly clever twist and manipulates another villain into helping him with his plans only to betray them in the end. 2 Mario Villains easily fit with this category, Dimentio, and Fawful. Starting with Fawful, he is the reason why Toads and Goomba's are blimping up [aka the blorbs], he turns bowser into a vacuum, gains control of both ruling castles, steals a massive entity of pure evil [The dark star], and then tries to absorb it into his own being so he can become the ultimate evil. He planned everything out, only failing because of Mustaches of Doom. Now we reach Dimentio. He wrote the Dark Prognostics, which caused Bleck to be manipulated due to his tragic past. He corrupts Fracktail, "saves" Peach from Mind control, Allows Luigi to be mind controlled, Kills Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Mr. L so they all end up in the same area together, uses Luigi as his pawn so he can End all Worlds and recreate them into his own perfect image. Now do these count as manipulative villains, probably, probably not. Heck, Puzzles and Dragons X [a fusion game that adds Puzzles and Dragons Super Mario Bros Edition, has a manipulative villain of his own.] Enigma, who manipulates Dogma and and then uses him to destroy the world. a personal favorite and underrated gem of a game is Stella Glow. Klaus, is a manipulative bastard. and one you do not expect at all. Throughout the game, you assume Hilda, the Witch of Destruction is evil. In actuality, it was Klaus, who murders the current ruler, a ton of citizens, and sends Angels down to rain hell on them. And it is easily avoidable, but you don't do it because he manages to trick you with how the song you play is to help the Crystalized people. It does, but it acts as a beacon for the angels. It is also revealed that he was corrupted by the Mother Qualia so he does get a redemption arc. But from the point of chapter's 8 and 9, you are hit with a massive shock that not only splits everyone apart, but also in the case of Archibald [who was devoted to Klaus], it shatters his own mind. Klaus easily affects everyone and my first time playing, his reveal caught me off guard. Even if he isn't the final boss, he was the penultimate boss that you take down prior to the Mother Qualia/Eve. All of these are spoilers by the way.

[@impaster2166]

When I played Sun and Moon I was soooo fascinated by Lusamine's character until Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon basically ruined it. Now I just pretend it doesn't exist when I'm replaying Sun and Moon. Your video explained her character perfectly and did it so much justice! Another great video.

[@japanpanda2179]

I've never heard anything about this... I always thought Ultra Sun/Moon had basically the same story but with some extra features added. Could you tell me more?

[@impaster2166]

@@japanpanda2179 Well one of the big things they changed is that they completely threw out the battle you have with Lusamine in her beast form and all the cutscenes related to it. The main antagonist is now Necrozma and Lusamine just comes out of a portal and faints, warning you and Lillie of it being too dangerous something like that and she gets forgiven for all her crimes and becomes really nice despite still being an absolute bitch to her children during the story.

[@japanpanda2179]

@@impaster2166 Oh wow sounds pretty lazy to me

[@draconicfeline6177]

@@japanpanda2179 Oh extremely

[@WhiteManOnCampus]

@@japanpanda2179 Essentially they changed Lusamine from being a brainwashed monster (and it was heavily implied that her behavior wasn't so much controlled but unleashed, so she always had the potential to be such an abusive, cruel and manipulative person) to more of a knight-templar who was just a little extreme, instead focusing on Necrozma potentially ending the world. It altered her relationship to Lillie, Gladion, really made no sense for Team Skull to exist as it did or why she would have Guzma working for her... It was just an atrocious redesign for what was easily the most horrific - for being the most realistic - villain in Pokemon. An abusive parent, addicted to a foreign substance, is all too real and hit harder than any other villain in the series.

[@BurningAzure]

Another great example is Otto Apocalypse from Honkai Impact 3rd. Just read Second Eruption and you get a great example of how far his manipulation goes to the point where he even ended up getting what he wanted by the end of his story.

[@bongy-o1q]

Yeah, a lot of good hoyo antagonists get downplayed and misinterpreted otto, and some of the fatui.

[@5H11N4]

Dutch Van Der Linde from the Red Dead Redemption series is perhaps one of the best video game manipulators I have ever seen for the sole fact of being so incredibly charismatic, charming and having an original motive so sincere, it creates a rift inbetween players who question whether something within Dutch truly had changed and corrupted his ideals, or if he was always the madman pretending to be a messiah he later "becomes" as the story progresses.

[@MilczekHD]

Lusamine's butchered portrayal in USUM is exactly why I'm glad pokémon just does DLC like other games now. I will say though, Ultra Necrozma did have a banger theme and generally awesome presence.

[@BJGvideos]

Everyone complains about the recent games but Ultra was flat out the worst game in the series because of what it did to the story and characters of SM.

[@nakimushi11]

Agreed, I’m glad at least story wise, Pokémon seems to be heading towards improvement on SV (and Arseus too, even if it wasn’t a mainline game).

[@BJGvideos]

@@nakimushi11 Arceus is mainline.

[@getmeto50ksubsorelse46]

I mean the dlc doesn’t really do anything to fix the story tho. So far it’s just an extra story that doesn’t further the initial one, and adds in some removed Pokémon

[@MilczekHD]

@@getmeto50ksubsorelse46 What do you mean "removed"?, the added mons were never in the game in the first place. Also I'll take an extra story that adds on from the previous one as opposed to an awkward retelling that changes fundamental details that made the original story enjoyable. Also not needing to buy and play through what is essentially the same game again is nice, cheaper too.

[@nathanshierd2098]

If Jetstream Sam had his own panel, I would literally quote the entire definition of insanity.

[@shpostmile1510]

"much stronger cast, i mean we've got Gundham Tanaka"

[@leritykay8911]

I dunno if that's relevant but, I like Alter Ego Junko way more than the regular Junko. She's more subdued, and more actually manipulative. Makes sense, since she's an AI. The original Junko got mad at Kyoko, cheated, got exposed for cheating. But then she was like "Uh actually let's have a final vote. And like... You guys like despair, right? And Kyoko, something something your dad." But AI Junko spread the lies about the Future Foundation and the traitor, almost tricked everyone with a fake Makoto, presented a compelling reason for the cast to vote in her favour, the vote itself is a real decision and not just an arbitrary thing she cane up with, exposed how much Hajime was messed with... And like, man. Even when her lies were exposed, she stuck to her guns and said "Oh yeah? Well, the truth isn't much better, chumps!" And just the fact that this whole thing was to lure in the future foundation is good. Rather than the og killing game, which is just to "spread despair" vaguely, and maybe pick off some people who come to the rescue. TL;DR Junko

[@getmeto50ksubsorelse46]

I don’t think the fact that junko cheated makes her less manipulative, kind the opposite. The entire motive to kill in the first game is just her manipulation, like using their families and friends as bait to make them kill in the first trial. I’d also think it makes someone more manipulative if they try to lie and cheat in order to push a narrative. I mean junko kinda did the same thing in the first game’s last trial, after she was exposed she hosted a final vote and used the truth as leverage to make killing hajime the most reasonable choice. She made it either vote for this guy and live in a school forever where you’re protected and fed during the apocalypse or vote for me and be forced out of the school into the apocalypse.

[@leritykay8911]

@@getmeto50ksubsorelse46 Well, alright that makes sense. But I still Like AI Junko way more. No matter who was a better manipulater, AI Junko at least wasn't as obnoxious

[@kiera6326]

I think it makes more sense though both from a writing and an in-story perspective since they tried to make her as obscure as possible in the first game, and choosing to bring her back in the second game meant having to iron things out. And in-story I think Junko was honestly really nervous in the first game. I mean, she had just spent weeks in total isolation and was revealing her responsibility to the world for the first time. I think she also knew she was probably going to die. AI Junko’s been through it before. It’s an AI, so it’s not really feeling anything and it was also more confident that it wouldn’t lose this time

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@getmeto50ksubsorelse46 Well, the thing is that a good manipulator has credibility. Being able to deceive others and do what you want them to do while never outright lying or breaking the rules sure has a lot more merit because it's much harder, and for a while she was succeding, managing to get three trials like that. But by the end of the fourth trial she lost all credibility by revealing she planted fake evidence, and she also went and destroyed Alter Ego in the resulting punishment despite them not being a blackened and there being no rules against plugging AI's to the network. Doing so made everyone unite against her, even the snobbish Togami.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

Agreed. I like Normal Junko, cause I think the point of the final vote was to essentially spite Makoto's promise and to spite society by dying in a way that they're scared she will come back. Which could have happened. But her bit makes Junko out to be more insane than she actually is, and it gets grating too soon. I do like how distracting it is but SDR2 did that way better by just giving Junko the power to ignore physics and letting her goof with it. And yeah, Junko literally would have won had Chiaki not done a literal deus-ex machina for some last second therapy with Hajime. She didn't make any mistakes that undid her. And the fact that she was able to stick to her guns and would have gotten away with it is amazing because of the fact that you VISIBLY see her reaction of panic, like you've actually put her in a corner. But it fades so quickly. I also love how considering the villain is literally an AI with the personalities of everybody inside her, she totally could have just copied everybody to be cringe, or tried to be ""scary"" by doing some freaky amalgamation and came out like a Dark Souls boss, but she decided that she couldn't improve on perfection. AI Junko is so based.

[@immortalfrieza]

Ultimately, what makes a good manipulator, not to mention a good manipulative villain (sometimes manipulators can actually manipulate to make things better) is how they manipulate yes, but more importantly who they manipulate. If the manipulator's manipulations are about nudging the manipulated to particular actions that make sense from the perspective of the manipulated, they're a good manipulator. However, if the manipulator tries to nudge the manipulated down to particular actions... and the manipulated could easily see past that manipulation and get out of the situation but don't, that's a bad manipulator. Manipulation that requires everyone manipulated to be a colossal moron in order for the manipulation to work is bad manipulation.

[@RogueFox2185]

Makima from Chainsaw Man is a great example of a manipulative villain, every time she’s in the room you know she always has an angle.

[@Val17282]

Makima was literally the only reason why I read the manga. The rest of the characters like Aki felt mediocre to me, but Makima.....jesus she was in her own tier. She really carried the plot for me

[@MichaeltheArchangel1-w5n]

She is but this is mostly a video game format. I'd love to see a possible video game adaptation of Chainsaw Man. Whether that be an RPG or adventure story.

[@_Belphegore_]

I enjoy Junkos character a lot even if a lot of her manipulation was thrown under the bus. Shes a good example of an irredeemable character, theres no defending her actions no matter how hard you try and thats what makes her awesome for me. Though I still consider Junko pretty manipulative, she uses very interesting wording with a lot of her stuff , and ignoring the danganronpa 3 anime, she still does a good job at manipulation, she gets everyone in dr1 and just to get rid of makoto, to rethink if they truly wanna go back to the outside world despite the characters not knowing if what she was saying was true, Ironically it is Makoto who breaks them out if this. Drv2 was also a good show of her manipulation, she made everyone fall back into despair, right where they started all over again even without their memories, even if the original thing was that they were brainwashed, it still showed off her skills of twisting any situation in her favor.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

Junko's morally irredeemable, but also that society deserved to be ruined the moment they started worshipping talent.

[@mesiagamer5217]

I would like to throw in that Lusamine outfit and hairstyle was based on another ultra beast Pheramosia a Manipulative Ultra beast that uses pheromones to manipulate Ultra beast and pokemon to its whims.

[@RGC_animation]

Manipulative villain can either be cool as hell and genuinely threatening, or be very cringe and annoying, and it's not easy to get right.

[@mattwo7]

13:12 Well Adachi and Kira do have a few things in common, though their motivations are hilariously antithetical. Which I suppose is fitting considering Persona 4 was clearly heavily influenced by JJBA Golden Wind and Persona as a whole clearly had some inspiration from Stardust Crusaders. Makes me wonder if Koromaru and Iggy being dogs with a stand/persona is only thing P3 has in common with Stardust Crusaders.

[@Chris-zq8fj]

Excellent choice in background music by the way.

[@Mangakamen]

I'm glad you like it

[@ColonelEstacado]

I KNEW it was a good list the instant I saw you added Dahlia. Underrated monstrous manipulator

[@NightoftheLivingcookies10]

Lusamine always gave me HEAVY Ragyo from Kill La Kill vibes. I could pretty much hear the iconic theme music whenever she showed up Is it me or have video games lately been pulling off the twist villain/mastermind/manipulator trope better than movies?

[@angeldude101]

Took you this long? I pretty sure there were many fans who immediately called out the Ragyo similarities from the moment she was revealed. Actually playing through the game just layers more similarities between Pokemon SM and Kill la Kill to the point that I actually just put on Blumenkranz over her first boss battle. Amusingly, Lillie is closer to Satsuki's color scheme, while Gladion is closer to Ryuko's, but their roles in the story are swapped roughly.

[@xord6286]

the villain of Ace Attorney Investigations 2 should have been here imo

[@iheartericcartman]

adachi my glorious king! i love junko too even though the dr3 anime was extremely disappointing. seeing adachi and junko interact would be hilarious. i love adachi!!!

[@poolturtle5772]

*Would you kindly* continue your work, good sir.

[@Mangakamen]

I see what you did there.

[@poolturtle5772]

@@Mangakamen honestly, I was surprised you didn’t have a whole section dedicated to his role in Bioshock

[@naquingreen1603]

@@Mangakamen You sort of forgot Lusamine from the Pokemon anime.

[@spritesoloz]

this is so good i love EVERY piece of fiction mentioned here, and i think this video does a really good job at discussing manipulative villians in media!

[@raincandy1653]

You should've included Monaca because she's freaking terrifying and manipulative for a toddler on wheels

[@personalstory5178]

Thank you for the spoiler warning. Although I'm not gonna watch the video now, I can tell alot of work was done for it. The beginning was good quality and I'm sure I was going to enjoy the rest.

[@mattwo7]

16:29 I'm pretty sure GLaDOS even took inspiration from SHODAN. Given her role in the story as an omnipresent voice, watching over and trying to manipulate Chell's actions. That kind of thing kind of became a trope of its own, albeit not always with a villain (Stanley Parable) or even antagonist (Quantum Conundrum)

[@samflood5631]

I feel like Izaya from Durarara is a perfect example of it. He’s a borderline sociopath who tends to tell a person something that’s false and tells the someone else the opposite. And he sits back and laughs how everyone else around him suffers. The reason why he tends to mess with his former high school friend Shizuo because Izaya knows that he’s an idiot who gets angry at anything that doesn’t make any sense to him. All of the stuff that occurred throughout the Durarara Series, the theft of Celty’s head, the gang war in the city of ikebukuro and the Saika Zombie incident, that was all Izaya’s doing just so he can get a laugh. He was willing to let himself get killed by Shizuo so he can frame him for murder, and he would have gotten away with it if Varona hadn’t stabbed him and Simon created that flash bomb which allowed Izaya to run away and leave the city. Makima from Chainsaw Man is another perfect example of manipulative villains. She uses Denji’s hormones as well as the need for a mother just so she can use him to carry out her orders. She killed Reze right before she was able to meet Denji at the Cafe because Denji is her property, not Reze’s. She also turned Aki into the Gun Fiend just so she can let Denji kill him which resulted in him having an emotional shutdown. All of this so she can control the Chainsaw Devil, the second most powerful Devil in all of hell. She would have gotten away with it too if Denji hadn’t broke free from her control and killed her.

[@ambulance-kun5915]

25:00 My favorite part is when Phoenix said "I am the Ace Attorney!"

[@ioriyume]

junko lowkey fills me with great despair

[@danielferrieri7434]

Video Idea: The Best and Worst Way to Right an Ending to a Good Story

[@tylers2571]

Great video and agree with the JUNKO part, wish it showed her recruiting the class one by one or at least show something that she interacted with them. For my favorite I wanna say Atlas/Frank Fontaine. He was the first one that stuck to me as I understood what a manipulative villain was and finding out who he really was just shocked me.

[@Petrico94]

Adachi's not playing 4D chess he just has a nice poker face. Unfortunately the game kind of gets in the way of the mystery where he has a profile but no social link besides Golden and even then it becomes automatic half way through. But it does fit the theming, he's just any other guy sick of his role in life and can do a lot to mislead people or put ideas into the main crews heads without them considering it. Some people criticize and meme on him but he's actually very sound as a villain.

[@Sepzgamin]

Kokichi is shouting, screaming, crying to get into this video

[@Demedich1]

It’s Punishment Time!!! But in all seriousness one of my favorite manipulative villains is Yaldabaoth from Persona 5. He’s not manipulative in the tradition sense but in how he all but says it to your face from the very beginning that you are being used. Your told you are part of a rigged game , yet your unable to do anything but play into his hand the entire story. It’s the type of manipulation where you your under no illusion that someone is deceiving you for their own means but your powerless to resist. That in its own is a very sobering type of manipulation since it shows the helplessness that people can fall into when they know they have little choice.

[@magnaillusion6085]

Maybe not props to how the villain was executed itself, but my favourite part of Magical Girl Raising Project is when they get Fav cornered, and all of his plausible deniability gets instantly demolished when Snow White realizes her power to hear the thoughts of people in distress includes bad guys trying to weasel out of getting killed.

[@CloudsAndDays]

One of my favorite scenes in the whole show. The show goes out of its way to say that Snow White's ability is rather weak and doesn't assist in combat in any way. It's decently easy to forget she has the ability in general with how flashy everybody else's powers are. And I imagine Fav paid as little attention to it as the audience does. I can only imagine the horror he felt when he realized the kinda slip up he made.

[@marceloasensiofilho3833]

Adachi was a character that is just soo good as a villain. Persona's best villain in my opinion

[@notthefbi7015]

The anime felt like it was rushed to finish out the series because they knew what was gonna happen with V3

[@neonnwave1]

Personally, I think they could have had the best of both worlds with Ultra S/M. Have Lusamine still be crazy and evil, but her actions are what causes Necrozma to surface and become the secondary antagonist. Simple as that.

[@BJGvideos]

Would have made for a way better game

[@10001vader]

That’s actually pretty much how the manga handles it

[@bubblecoffee7210]

See I don't agree with this take because it's basically how USUM _actually_ played out. The game's real problem isn't that Lusamine's not crazy anymore, it's that she still is but the game tries its damnedest to distract you from it so it can push Necrozma as a bigger threat, culminating in everyone just forgetting she was ever a bad person to begin with as soon as it's dealt with. It's been beaten to death by now but honestly, if they wanted to make a story about Necrozma, it should've either been a continuation of Sun & Moon's or a different story entirely. Lusamine's original plot was fine as it was, tacking on some big spooky space dragon just cause was never gonna help it.

[@Bunni89]

Exactly! They literally coulda just changed the ultra beast she's obsessed with from nihilego to necrozma. Instant solution!

[@neonnwave1]

@@Bunni89 No I meant her obsession with Nihilego would still be there but it's her actions of opening the portal that causes a chain to Necrozma's release.

[@Hamstergeddon]

Well i guess youtube recommendations are right every now and then. Sub earned.

[@givewarachance2001]

Adachi has to be my favourite manipulator and Persona antagonist beacuse he's just an asshole with a gun and a nihilistic view of the world who happens to have otherwordly powers. His powers hold limitless potentional and even with all that he uses them for shits and giggles, there is no grand world domination plan just killing few people, manipulating some paranoid guy who's wife he just killed to put more people in danger by making him belive he is a messiah, making some random teen who killed his teacher believe he's the killer behind all the killing in Inaba and manipulating a group of kids for his own entertainment. I am glad that he doesn't really change in the other games, sure he does accept his views and actions were wrong and even helps to save the world in Ultimax but he's still his usual egotistical nihilistic self. Not sure if she does qualify as a manipulator but Monika from DDLC was pretty solid and Glitchtrap/William Afton has imo some real good potentional. An AI possessed by the soul of a serial killer has some real potentional. There are some bits and pieces of lore of how he manipulates and brainwashes Vanessa in some of the games and books, i just wish it was better realized.

[@jason20880]

me: "I wonder who he would pick as the last/best one" *Distant Traces of Beauty starts playing* also me: "YES! THIS IS EXACTLY IT!"

[@kamo7293]

I played persona 4 before the anime came out. I remember reading seeing screenshots of the game somewhere and I really wanted to play it. I played through that game right quick and you know the story is quite well done. adachi. that piece of... honestly I remember my blood going cold when I came to the bit where you spell out the villains name cause its such an interesting way to see if you were following the story. God what a reveal

[@draconicfeline6177]

USUM would have been so much better (even just Lusamine wise) if they made it about her recovery, finding/restoring Mohn to the family, her trying to be a hero with good intentions (stopping necrozma) but fucking up majorly because she can't quite remember how to do good without oops villainy/manipulation? Like... a sequel, B2W2-wise not a rehash. Maybe Ultra Megalopolis wouldn't be just a hallway then, and rainbow rocket would have had room to breathe.

[@draconicfeline6177]

If the games were this fundamentally different (or... outright DLCs...) then the different music they gave them for no damn reason would finally make sense.

[@gideonragnason6706]

The problem with Junko is that more than a character she is just a Masturbatory Element, ie something (or someone) created with the sole purpose of distracting the viewer from the lack of substance that story has. If you analyze it carefully you realize all she does: random poses, exaggerated reactions, weird speeches have absolutely no meaning but the way she does them makes them seem like something worthy of a Shakespeare script. Her backstory in Dr:Zero was indeed an interesting project with a lot of potential but there are 2 problems: - More than a backstory it felt like a last-minute excuse to try (and fail) to justify her immense powers and skills but during the games it was never even implied nor even hinted, all we learned about her from games was that she has an unspecified obsession with abstract despair and that she destroyed the world in an unclear way, then she dies anticlimactically and unsatisfyingly in one of the most awful final villain defeat since Digimon 02. - In the anime (dr3 included), while she used her analytical skills once or twice it was only over trivial things and we never saw her use her own talent to succeed in her plans. Her lazy author himself stated that she was nothing but a just-because-role-filling villain and her being a non-character doomed all Dr writing to mediocrity. In dr3, where she should have shown how powerful and unpredictable she was, but in reality only dumb luck allowed her to succeed, she basically had everything handled over to her and found next to no real opposition, all of this filled with abysmal-level writing (like that one guy letting a mass murderer run free rather than admit to be in love with his fellow professor, that isn't blackmail, let alone Junko's charisma, that is simple and clear abysmal writing). As a villain Junko can only be successful if: - Everyone mindlessly worships or is biased towards her - The whole world, including supposed Ultimates, ie those who are supposed to be the elite of the world, aren't to be able to realize that this apparently just eccentric gyaru behaves like a nutcase freakshow. - Those who oppose her are either just as bad people who are inclined to murder for the flimsiest reasons or completely braindead idiots who falls for the most embarrassing tricks. If any Dr cast were just a bunch of at least decent characters then Junko would be found out after the first bullshit she does, if the level of the cast were even slightly raised over the three categories above (Like in Dr:If or some other fanfictions) then Junko wouldn't succeed with anything she has in mind (at the time of the story I mean). If a good cast opposed Junko she wouldn't get away with taking sand from a desert, let alone wanting to destroy the world.

[@etam8099]

THIS

[@mattwo7]

16:31 Also the Mother Brains in Phantasy Star II and Phantasy Star Universe (which was set in an parallel reality from the classic Phantasy Star games where the android planet run by Mother Brain is the green hill zone instead of the dry dry desert (although Mother Brain in PSII actually was responsible for turning Mota from a fertile grassland into a desert)).

[@amirgarcia547]

Lusamine is hands-down one of my favorite Pokémon villains/antagonists, and only really behind N and Cyrus for me. Being that instead of simply wanting to rule or change the world like previous Pokémon antagonists, her motivations are both far more human and selfish. Being that she essentially destroys her family and both abuses and manipulates her own kids as a result of her obsession with the Ultra Beasts. Which’s a bit understandable when your brain gets messed up by neurotoxins *and* you have to deal with the grief of your husband’s death, since the Ultra Beasts were the last connection she had to Mohn. Hence why in a warped and twisted way, shed used them as a coping mechanism for his “death” to the point where she forgot about the people in her life she still has. And Sun/Moon never really redeems her, at least in the traditional sense, but towards the end finally has her see Lillie as more than just a Nihilego dress-up doll. Which’s why it’s so frustrating that they somehow thought it’d a good idea to change her from a crazy and narcissistic mother into a misunderstood hero who instead tries to stop Necrozma due to having some kind of messiah complex. Which I’ll admit can be a good concept, having an antagonist who wants to save the world but goes about in the wrong way, but the main issue is that they still keep all the terrible things Lusamine does (neglecting her kids, experimenting on Pokémon and torturing Nebby), but now with the changes in her motivation it just causes her actions to no longer make sense. It’s bad enough to make a character who’s poorly written, but even worse to ruin one that was already great to begin with and cause her to be inconsistent just because you decide to back away from actual having her being a terrible and abusive person. AKA how many people actually are in real life. At the very least, since Sun/Moon is its own standalone game and US/UM isn’t a sequel, I can just pretend that it doesn’t exist and that SuMo is the canon, intended story. It’s just a large shame since US/UM adds plenty of great gameplay additions to Gen 7, but with how much it butchers the story it makes it so there really isn’t one definitive Gen 7 game.

[@draconicfeline6177]

I'm not even sure which one Masters EX considers canon? Like, it has to be USUM or the Anime, but having played only moon, all of Lusamine's voice lines about loving her children scare the shit out of me.

[@Theathegamer-gt8zu]

As a kid, I never realised how terrifying Lusamine actually is as a villain. While the other main Pokémon villains are just your classic “bad guy wants to rule the world” types, Lusamine is obsessive and manipulates everyone around her to get what she wants. What’s so scary about this is that there are a lot of real people who act just like her. Not only that, but child abuse is much more common that you might expect, and also incredibly dark and complicated for a kid to learn about. When a lot of people talk about dark parts of the Pokémon franchise, they usually mention unsettling facts regarding death and shit. But in my opinion, Lusamine is probably one of the darkest things in the entire franchise, even though she’s very easily overlooked.

[@spacetoast87]

What kinda sucks about DR3 is that it does somewhat show what could've been with Junko's manipulation of Mitarai. The idea was there but they decided to take the easy way out with the magic anime :/

[@darkjammin79]

Its punishment time! My vote on the title was Lusamine and am glad you covered her. My other go to was referenced and I'll leave it at that. The latter blew my mind and I was just watching my brother play the game out of the corner of my eye. The world was so fascinating and that reveal. That speech, I lost my mind with in having shut my DS off awhile ago and on the edge of my seat. I'd love another to pull it off and some I have missed due to my mistrust of studios/modern games. A few I experienced but wasn't pulled off in the sense of manipulation(purely anyways). As for Lusamine, I consider her original incarnation among my favorite antagonists in gaming. Easily a favorite in the pokemon franchise alongside Guzma's raw charisma. It was weird watching the sun/moon anime with this incarnation existing in my mind.

[@draconicfeline6177]

My guess is that someone backlashed them and they were such cowards that they couldn't have an evil mom villain! They just couldn't! So they treated SM as a mistake... aaaaand stuck Faba in team RR, the misogyny is so great here.

[@Firedrake-SP]

If Gamefreak ever rerelease Pokémon Sun & Moon in a combined version, I hope they use the original version Lusamine instead of the Ultra version.

[@joshuawagner4485]

I would have loved seeing Alex from the Golden Sun series on this, though he's a rather interesting case of the manipulator in that you never even get to fight him and he actually achieves his goals (mostly). A manipulator who manages to direct the party in such a way so as to give them no other option but to move to his benefit, while also manipulating the more conflicting antagonists so as to further his goals as well. He manipulates friend and foe alike, and as he said himself, he's on no one's side but his own.

[@Biowoman.]

I agree about Junko. I imagined her being charismatic enough to notice the students at their lowest and prey on them and slowly radicalise them, but then the anime making it bs brainwashing ruined it for me.

[@tomato5499]

I imagined her as someone able to get her motives from _somewhere,_ and those were directly from all her classmates themselves. Before the tragedy, Junko was someone people would come to with their problems and she'd welcome them with open arms. She genuinely cared for them, which is why she used all of that information against them to bring herself despair.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

I greatly prefer the idea that the students were turned into bad people because of circumstances that they would have more of a right to feel responsible for. It puts more accountability into them and feels a lot scarier. It could be a mix of both but I greatly prefer the idea they're doing that, and makes Hajime's crisis so much more real. Edit: Just remembered Nagito exists! WOW, what a waste of potential for what could be such an interesting interaction that we knew took place. Holy shit. On the bright side, I fully understand and forgive V3 now that I know what the anime did.

[@MSCDonkeyKong]

@@tomato5499 Honestly, that completely checks out with what I saw in her character. You can tell Junko's empathetic and has a really easy time caring about other people's lives, because that kind of input is whats needed to fuel her obsession with making them feel bad later. She's essentially a dark empath.