The Rings of Power: Are Tolkien Fans Wrong or Right?

As a fan, but not an expert on Tolkien or his Middle Earth lore, I chime in with my opinion on the Lord of the Rings, The Rings of Power and furthermore my take on the political sphere (at Tolkien's demise mind you) of this Amazon versus Tolkien fans situation
Who is right of wrong?
Links --
Rings of Power Trailer -- • The Lord of the Rings:...
Vanity Fair article -- www.vanityfair...
Rings of Power Commentary in this clip --
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[@hoppzilla7103]

Galadriel is several THOUSAND years old in the second age. She was born in the years of the trees, before the first age. She is not some angsty teen with a sword. It’s all very frustrating… all very similar to the new halo show. It’s just NOT based on the source material in any capacity.

[@Ecthelion842]

Not to mention that she knew Feanor was a shitstick back in Valinor. But now she's an angsty young elf woman? Yeah, get fucked Amazon.

[@icecell]

And yet Celebrimbor and Gil Galad look like her uncles. 🥲

[@billychops1280]

When in reality they are her really young nephews by a few generations (at least in Gil-galads case)

[@muajin]

They're trying to satisfy the woke viewership I think. A dark-skinned beardless dwarf? Yeap..all kinds of wrong.

[@hoppzilla7103]

Honestly, the aesthetics are secondary in my mind. I agree it would have been nice to have a look that is more of what Tolkien described, but the real tragedy is the complete removal of what make the characters who they are.

[@michaelkrull3331]

Best response to "we're telling the story Tolkien never did" I've heard yet: If you could write anywhere near the level of Tolkien, you'd create your own thing instead of piggybacking off his name.

[@deriznohappehquite]

The actual quote is “we’re writing the novel Tolkien never wrote”. The actual meaning of that is they intend to expand the Akallabeth from a history to something with a novel’s level detail. Tolkien has already written the actual story, characterized the characters, and created the world. it’s a matter of writing some dialogue and filling in some blanks.

[@bry8636]

@@deriznohappehquite Yet Amazon is not keeping the details as Tolkien wrote them. Or the characters as Tolkien had characterized them. Tolkien would have never described Galadriel as ‘full of piss and vinegar’ And he sure as hell wouldn’t have slapped Feanor’s Star on Galadriel. Tolkien would’ve maintained the secretive perception of female dwarves as it was. Tolkien liked to leave certain mysteries unexplained. Like Bombadil, dwarven ‘women’ were an enigma. And let’s hope the meteor man is one of the blue wizards, or it’s in complete contradiction with what Tolkien wrote. Beardless female dwarves are just the tinniest tip of the iceberg. Black elves, dwarves and hobbits are not a part of the story Tolkien wrote. A human elf relationship was not something Tolkien took lightly. Such unions were exceedingly rare such that Tolkien specifically mentions only 3 unions between the Eldar and the Edain. Cite prince Imrahil all you like. The fact remains that the unions between elves and means were exceedingly rare. The point of that is to acknowledge the huge sacrifice of giving up immortality for love. Every time such a union is added, it diminishes that sacrifice. The condensing of the timeline. All that from a 30 second trailer. So it’s pretty safe to presume that what Amazon is producing is not anything Tolkien would’ve approved of. It’s not Tolkien’s story. And kicking Shippey off and ramping up production after Christopher passes is too coincidental to be ignored. Christopher didn’t like Jackson’s trilogy in part bc of the liberties he took. And in comparison to what we’re getting with Amazon, Jackson’s alterations are going to be a relative drop in the bucket. In which case this can’t be the ‘novel Tolkien never wrote’. This will however be the novel Tolkien would’ve never written.

[@Weaseldog2001]

@@bry8636 To nitpick.., There should be zero wizards in the amazon series. The Blue Wizards arrived with Gandalf in the 3rd age. And adding any Maiar in during the Second Age, to counter Sauron, calls into question the entire LOTR trilogy. Tolkien did give us some detailed background information on Sauron's interaction with the Numenorians and the Elves after he was taken prisoner. And no Maiar are mentioned. The story progressed as if, none were there at all. The only Maiar that I think they could include, would be Balrogs, and maybe Werewolves for a stretch.

[@bry8636]

@@Weaseldog2001 Tolkien did write that all the Istari didn’t arrive in middle earth until the 3rd age. And that’s how I see it. However, in the People’s of Middle Earth, edited by Christopher, Tolkien wrote that the blue wizards appeared in the second age. SA 1600 to be specific. So Amazon wouldn’t be completely out of the lore by having blue wizards in the SA. Personally, I take the works edited by Christopher with a grain of salt. And I give far more credence to the works published by Tolkien when he was alive. So I agree that the third age is the most likely beginning of the blue wizards in middle earth. As far as Balrogs, I say no. And this is a big point. As Balrogs progressed through Tolkien’s works, they were once legion, then only ‘4-7’ in total, ever by the end per Christopher. There may have been a few Balrogs that survived into the SA, including Durin’s Bane. But the ones that might’ve survived fled to the deep recesses of the earth, ‘out from under the sky’ in fear of the Valar who hunted them. And there they hid and slept. So they wouldn’t have appeared in the SA, although yes, they did exist. But there is no way any Balrog would pop their head up, because their whole intent was to hide. And that’s worrisome as there are rumors that Amazon is going to use Balrog(s) in their ‘adaptation’. No Balrog would pop it’s head out under the open sky for fear of the Valar. And because they were sleeping. Which I assume would be a deep hibernation. A several millennia hibernation. The only way this could possibly happen would be if a Balrog was disturbed in some long forgotten pit in the earth accidentally. Which would be remarkably repetitive. How many Balrogs could the dwarves possibly stumble upon? Given there’s no more than a few left. And I say dwarves because who else is going to be mucking around in the ‘deep recesses of the earth’ besides dwarves. So yea, pretty damn repetitive. Beyond this, it diminishes the appearance of Durin’s Bane. When Tolkien tells us no one has seen a Balrog since the FA, he means it. It is an ancient power that was thought long removed from middle earth. So planting one in the SA that people stumble across cuts against the lore pretty severely. I suppose if some dwarves stumbled upon it, and all were quietly killed, it might not be too egregious. But you can’t have someone encounter a Balrog in the SA and live to tell about it, because that is absolutely against the lore. It would be an event, because Balrogs were more legendary than dragons. And such things don’t just quietly disappear. Werewolves would be pretty cool and in keeping with the lore. I hope they’re not the routine manifestation of werewolves as we know them at present. That would be generic, cliche, which Tolkien was decidedly not. But werewolves would be a good new creature to bring about that is in keeping with the lore. But somehow I get the impression that Amazon will manage to bungle that too.

[@Weaseldog2001]

@@bry8636 I like your critique of my comment. I keep forgetting that Christopher put the Blue Wizards into the 2nd age. But that introduces the question of how Gandalf knew them. Of course he could've interacted with them before coming to Middle Earth, or been informed that they were in Middle Earth when he was sent. Bit since the Blues went East and were never heard from, I'm not sure how they would weave it in. Saruman, Gandalf and Radaghast took the form of old men, intentionally. To look wise and unthreatening. I wonder what form the Blues would've taken if they arrived in the second age? You are right about Balrogs hiding. I figured they'd have that beardless dwarf defeat one.

[@davidcoleman757]

I think they've messed with the wrong fan-base. Die-hard Tolkien fans generally have a deep knowledge and understanding of his creation, and they have read a lot of the background material: his letters, his essays, and the vast volumes of material edited by Christopher Tolkien. Middle-Earth is special to a hugely diverse fandom, and to English fans it gave us the myths we lost. Don't adapt these myths unless you do it with utmost respect for the source material.

[@Samuel-ke1wu]

Damn roght!

[@marshalseedov4248]

It genuinely pisses me off that people who want to keep tolkiens work as he saw it are labelled a whole bunch of ists and phobes

[@baconlover7747]

For gods sake someone get this man more likes!

[@bobbythorton7693]

I hope they cancel after 1 season seeing how stupid this is, pushing political ideas in one of the greatest universes

[@animefancss]

I might not be a die hard fan.. I only read some of the books. But as Greek I can relate. Hollywood ridicules our history and mythology for many years.

[@OldieWan]

My favorite part of Rings of Power is when they took over 800 million dollars and laundered it. Breath taking and ground breaking!

[@markborok4481]

This made me realize how astute Peter Jackson was in finding "unearthly"-looking actors to play his elves. These look just like ordinary people.

[@Afrolovertje]

That was what I was thinking.. Galadriel and Elron look... Mundane? Kind of reminds me of the show Shannara and something tells me that wasn't what they were going for

[@jackbauer4186]

The costumes and camera angles and lighting also heavily asserted the etherial and majestic effect of the Elves, especially the ancient and powerful ones like Galadriel.

[@Andreas0705]

The Rohirim charge scene, was actually mostly women who volunteered with I believe their own horse, and got a beard on and costume. I find that awesome and hilarious

[@KPT437]

I think you’ve hit the nail in the head - Amazon DOEES NOT HAVE THE RIGHTS to these stories. They can’t make lotr or hobbit again cos that is too beloved and not yet forgotten. So they have to create their own stories but they can’t really have any of the details Tolkien put in the books that Amazon doesn’t have a right too. Of course they then go out and blame the fans as being toxic for not liking it.

[@Assassine0606]

I just saw a video, where somebody points out, that the elves look so "normal" because quite many of them do not have long hair in the trailers. And while Tolkien never specified that elves have to have long hair, they are almost always described as such. Also we are very used to a certain elvish appearance due to the LotR (and to some extent Hobbit) Trilogy(s)

[@TeleologicalConsistency]

Galadriel could destroy cities with her magic. But here she's reduced to bashing people with swords in plate mail. It's pretty sad.

[@Lexmorningstarnz]

I reckon!

[@Andrew-ep4kw]

In Galadriel's encounter with Frodo she told of the temptation the ring exerted, saying she could use it to wield terrible power and recognizing it would corrupt her. At no point in this encounter, which terrified Frodo for a time, did she appear physically aggressive. Rather, it was her mind that was so powerful and potentially dangerous if she succumbed to the lure of the ring. This is the very model of soft power. The left can't appreciate this, because they don't respect women. They think women are useless and must become men to be redeemed. Their disdain of Galadriel's true and awesome power is misogyny in pure form.

[@sertaki]

Wow, what a sudden whiplash of a comment, going from reasonable book discussion to "woke baking" out of nowhere.

[@sertaki]

Oh and of course, you had to throw in some transphobia for good measure. Very impressive reactionary drivel.

[@BrettCaton]

@@Andrew-ep4kw I absolutely agree. Galadriel's arts were feminine, but no less powerful for being so. She created an incredibly beautiful haven for elfkind, that lasted despite the corruption of the world outside, and that protected the spirits of those who dwelt there, helping sustain them against the seduction of despair. She was a cup of cool water for the man dying of thirst. The Leftist version is "strong woman bashes real good, and puts down all the men".

[@davidbateleur8357]

Galadriel is the archetype of Femininity in Tolkiens universe. She represents beauty, compassion, femininity and balance. She is literally the most powerful female character in Middle Earth... so seeing her reduced to Xena Warrior Princess is painful. It shouts loud and clear that the showrunners dont understand Tolkiens work.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

Indeed. They can’t just make her strong differently nope she has to be a warrior Not smart Not using only magic Only This way

[@missanne2908]

Galadriel is not the only female character that Amazon is twisting. Appendix A says only that Ar-Pharazon seized the throne; it is in the Akallabeth (to which Amazon does not have the rights) where Miriel by law should have been ruling queen, and that Pharazon took her to wife against her will and seized the sceptre. Apparently in this new production Miriel remains the ruling queen and Pharazon reduced to her wily counselor. Why the change? They can't show a man seizing a woman's power?

[@garreonlefay6703]

@@missanne2908 Basically that I guess

[@garreonlefay6703]

Galadriel also represents Mysticism. She is, magically, one step below the order of Wizards.

[@tobbcittobbcit8899]

She's not the most powerful female character in middle earth. Amongst the elves she is strongest female. placed second in the elven race after Fëanor(male) in terms of power.

[@h4rdi7g3]

Modernising Tolkien's work is ridiculous. We're talking about a guy who thought Shakespeare was modern drivel.

[@bluebird3281]

( :

[@christianbecker7212]

just two questions. why do you think the tolkien books and lore are so beloved? because they are written as they are, perhaps? - just a thought.

[@Rabbithole8]

You are correct in implying that Tolkien rejected notions of "modernizing" text. However, you are incorrect about Tolkien's assessment of Shakespeare. Tolkien didn't think "Shakespeare was modern drivel." He disliked it when he was a child and not as an adult.

[@mr_earwig6477]

@@christianbecker7212 I would say it's down to the level of detail within his work, all the characters and places that span thousands of years in the timeline of Middle-Earth. Its a richness that is difficult to build or find. I think his work is especially beloved because of the myths and legends he weaved into it, the epic tales he created. There is quite literally an entire world within his work. Its rare to be able to say that about some people's work, but with Tolkien, it's true.

[@VictoriaAbernethy]

@@Rabbithole8 perhaps not drivel but he thought anything post Chaucer was not literature. So I doubt he had a high regard for Shakespeare.

[@AndragonLea]

Let's be honest here: after all we've seen and heard it has become exceedingly evident that they never meant to create a tribute to Tolkien the way Jackson did. They just wanted the trademark to cash in on. They wanted a sufficiently revered and beloved franchise so they could try to pull a Game of Thrones. There's preciously little love lost on LotR among most of the people they've had holding the interviews and writing the scripts. They didn't respect or love the source material, they just liked it for what it could do for their bank balance.

[@goodfellabeats]

Beyond watching LOTR and the Hobbit, I don't know that much about Tolkien's work. I didn't know that he was so thorough in his creations and that his fans were so loyal. I am, however, very aware and against corporations using social politics to drive sales. You have an ally in me, Tolkien fans.

[@F0R35T3R]

It's refreshing to hear someone who has only had, what a true Tolkien 'superfan' might consider, a surface level of exposure to the mythos still find the ability and courage to recognize corrupt intentions and call them out. Welcome to the fandom!

[@keonster]

“You are most welcome.” -Aragorn

[@goodfellabeats]

@@F0R35T3R Thanks for making me feel welcome! It's crazy how Amazon can just ripoff, rebrand, pander to an audience it to make Tolkien's work "relevant for today" so that some executives can high-five during a quarterly earnings call. The fact that Tolkien created stories that probably took hundreds if not thousands of hours to craft and to have those stories be so good that they've created this kind of loyalty 70 years later is amazing.

[@Shortnightmares13]

Just read the books, and Silmarilion. Your eyes will open wide, brutha

[@Hivedragon]

And glad to have you in the ranks, no matter your depts of knowdlege of the works. Understanding is a big step.

[@air1das]

“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like”, yeah no, it's called FANTASY for a reason

[@LoneSilverW0lf]

They’re injecting reality into a fantasy by people who reject reality.

[@adrianrocha49]

A good way to see how stupid this is is to say something like, "it felt only natural to us that Wakanda should reflect the cultural diversity of 2020 America." "We felt it only natural that a movie set in fifteenth century China should look like pre-Columbus era North America."

[@danhalstead705]

And it's not just fantasy, it's set in the ancient past. At no time in our ancient past was there a multi-cultural melting pot like there is today. It just doesn't make sense. And Tolkien's #1 rule for writing fantasy was that it had to make sense.

[@air1das]

@@danhalstead705 only the counterargument usually is: "you're looking for sense in fAnTaSy"

[@seimen4348]

@@air1das and the standard answer is: Yes, i do and in good fantasy-stoies you'll find it ;)

[@davidbateleur8357]

The Tolkien fandom is one of the oldest nerd fandoms in the world... mess with us at your peril.

[@makeitsonumberone1358]

War of the worlds was written in 1897, not on the same par as LOTR but you get me drift.

[@Joseph-vu7mg]

Legit question why on earth would anyone care about messing with nerds? Y'all are the weakest of humans

[@bry8636]

@@makeitsonumberone1358 ‘one of’

[@frankblack8573]

So it begins 😆 Wheel of Time , Trek and Star wars thing is just sad, but Amazon is opening Pandora's box...

[@yourdad6902]

What are a bunch of 80 year old neckbeards gonna start attacking poeple

[@clownofthetimes6727]

The Lord of the Rings is problematic and outdated according to one of Amazon`s so called Tolkien scholars. The fans have every reason to be worried.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

“No they shouldn’t their bigotry s. Because they won’t accept - “ gets slapped the shit so hard the soy leaves his body Me: yes. This is horrible. They are disrespectful to a great writer all because they can’t see him as a great guy for having white skin. They have to take his work and ruin it

[@ComradeCommissarYuri]

Ah your’re referring to the diversity and inclusion officer

[@johnalthor]

Amazon fired their world renowned Tolkien expert, Tom Shippey, right after Tolkien's son died, and replaced him with Maria Maldonado, a DEI expert who wrote a thesis criticizing Tolkien's work as problematic. Tolkien's son was known to defend his father's legacy, hence why the cowards fired Tom right after Christopher died. That tells us everything we need to know. Amazon has a clearly woke agenda to change and corrupt Tolkien's work and not respect his creation.

[@ringbearer1420]

According to the company with long history of exploiting their worker like it’s 1880s and with a long history of systemic racism towards said employees.

[@nirfz]

If they think that it is problematic and outdated, they should leave it alone and "create" something that's set in the future. (Oh, someone already messed with those i guess...)

[@sparking023]

Whenever something goes wrong, my dad tells me to try and learn something from the experience. After watching many beloved hobbies and IPs get burned down to ashes by corporate greed and woke agendas (looking at you, Disney), it's good to see the fandom speaking against this abomination. They couldn't have picked a worse fandom to mess with. They know the lore, they respect the author, and above all, they have a great passion for it the works, and they *will* protect it in any way they can

[@anarlote5658]

The most tragic thing about this is that if they genuinely wanted to create an inclusive and engaging show with only having access tp LOTR and its appendices, they could've just set their entire story in the lands of the Haradrim or Easterlings. There is heaps of space to expand on lore without breaking canon, and Tolkien's depictions of Numenorian colonialism and its impact on these areas was surprisingly nuanced for his era.

[@anarlote5658]

Oh hahaha you made that point later in the video, kudos to you! I wish people would bring more attention to this, the fact that there are canonically different ethnicities in Middle Earth Amazon have strangely not said much on, despite supposedly wanting a more progressive depiction.

[@JohnSmith-te5oo]

Im a Tolkien fan. I acted in my first production of the hobbit 42 yrs ago. Amazon is doing EXACT!Y what Jackson avoided - and its a disgusting blow to Tolkien's legacy and the fans

[@adrianrocha49]

Not really, because I think by now we all recognize that this is not Tolkien. This will just be another blow, hopefully the final deathblow to any and every corporation that wants to input their own BS into a popular and beloved franchise.

[@Ch-ew9tm]

Wait… you worked on the cartoon?

[@elirien4264]

@@Ch-ew9tm I will always wish Bakshi had been able to finish it.

[@oskarfabian5200]

You're right in the movies Arwen had only a sword, not plate armor. I don't know what Jackson avoided.

[@halversonnoel0]

@@oskarfabian5200 he avoided pissing off the "fans" im guessing? Which he actually didnt. People were just as uptight then as they are now.

[@williamoforangedidnothingwrong]

Fans are in the right here And as Tolkien is basically the patron Saint of INFP's we need to respect the values tlotr is based on because they are tolkien's values. Infps know full well that sticking to our values is what makes us special. To bastardize he's work for a "modern interpretation" kills everything that made it special. Its not a contemporary work. It's transcendent.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

I’m glade this has more likes.

[@josegonzales9169]

Infp? What is that?

[@matwatson7947]

INFP?

[@williamoforangedidnothingwrong]

@@matwatson7947 A Mediator (INFP) is someone who possesses the Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Prospecting personality traits. These rare personality types tend to be quiet, open-minded, and imaginative, and they apply a caring and creative approach to everything they do."

[@williamoforangedidnothingwrong]

@@josegonzales9169 A Mediator (INFP) is someone who possesses the Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Prospecting personality traits. These rare personality types tend to be quiet, open-minded, and imaginative, and they apply a caring and creative approach to everything they do."

[@timn6864]

I want to be entertained. I don't want to watch a "message". It's shocking that the studios haven't lost enough money for them to realise that it doesn't work

[@staceygram5555]

It's not just about the box office. It's about investors. Look up 'ESG'. A company can earn billions and billions of dollars, sometimes from government entities, if they push the correct type of political narratives, i.e. leftist propaganda.

[@ambrosiogiovanni6952]

They received a bail out from the government, that's why they still have money to burn.

[@ESJonas]

@@ambrosiogiovanni6952 That's absolutely true.

[@Ellesdy1]

They do, it means nothing to their coffers... Amazon has wasted billions scrapping games they worked years on when fan reception wasn't good.. BILLIONS of dollars the last decade with MULTIPLE massive games... they can flop a billion here and it won't change their agenda... the problem is they have endless funds to throw at anything that needs more and don't mind losing a billion dollars...

[@SaigonBrit]

Absolutely correct. I consider myself to be a left of centre classical liberal but I can't stand the modern 'woke' liberals who call anyone who doesn't agree with them 'ists' and 'phobes'. With this new show they needed to leave all the politics at the door and simply tell a good story and respect the Tolkien lore as closely as possible (and respect the fans who have supported it for decades). Of course in an adaptation there will be changes but when politics is slipped in to entertainment it's so off-putting. It's like modern Star Trek (Discovery/Picard), it's so cringey and obviously woke, in class Trek and Next Gen they still managed to have social commentary and subtext but it was never overtly political or preachy- it was intelligent sci-fi. With Tolkien they need to go back to basics and stop insulting their customers.

[@connecticutaggie]

"an excuse to wear the clothes of Tolkien while telling a different story" - YES, you nailed it!!! They have a story they want to tell but they have no credibility so they are trying to buy some. Personally, I think that is going to backfire on them. I think it is also going to backfire on the Tolkien estate. It is like the trustee of an estate selling the benefactor's children into prostitution to benefit the estate. It is so sad to see the vision of Tolkien belittled and degraded like this.

[@damienjstepick]

Very well said and delivered. What’s laughable about Amazon’s response to the backlash is, if the tables were turned, they would be calling this “cultural appropriation”.

[@csakegyrajongo6114]

“They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard.” /Tolkien about Elves/

[@Patrick-qed]

The quotation is accurate, but the problem is that it was a mistake. Christopher Tolkien explained that quotation refers to the Noldor only, and not to all the Quendi. He used the strong words "extraordinary perversion of meaning" to describe the error. "Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin’s Vanyarin mother Indis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose." The Book of Lost Tales Vol. 1, p. 44.

[@deriznohappehquite]

This is referring specifically to the Ñoldor who returned to Middle Earth in the First Age.

[@bry8636]

@@Patrick-qed Which of course completely justifies silvan elves of a completely different phenotype that Tolkien never wrote about.

[@piotrczubryt1111]

@@bry8636 What about the orks, in this new modern version, are all the human races and genders represented?

[@Patrick-qed]

@@bry8636 I wasn't addressing that point one way or the other in addressing the "race high and beautiful" passage in the Appendices. As to Quendi of different phenotypes, my take on it is this: Tolkien expressly said that the Quendi and Humans are the same species. Humans come in a range of skin colors. What is the justification for concluding that the Quendi are all "white"?

[@Zhohan-]

When you’re a writer/filmmaker of a universe that isn’t your own, you are the steward and custodian of that world. It is your job to keep the themes and world consistent with whatever you add or depict. It is NOT your job to selfishly take the love and work of another and twist it to be your own. It’s ironically what Morgoth wished to do upon creation in Arda (Middle Earth). Nearly every fantasy franchise that I love has suffered from this in the past 10 years and I’m helpless to stop it. Companies should listen to fan communities and remove corrupting figures like these from power. I imagine this show will be a success. But if it closely matched the care and love of the world, it would be 10x more successful for its quality rather than being temporary eye candy. And it’s important to consider that Tolkien’s work surpasses fantasy. It is poetry and true literature that scholars will appreciate just like Homer, Dante, Virgil, Milton, or Tolstoy. Thanks for talking about this Lex. Longtime viewer of this tremendously comfy channel. Always enjoy hearing your honest thoughts as you navigate life and grow with your viewers.

[@gilbertobrandina9487]

This show won't be a sucesss, don't worry. This stink of wheel of time al over, man.

[@kiyaleelevyrunaya9495]

Reading some books, or being a fan of a writer, also doesn't make you, or any of the readers/gamers/watchers, experts. So get off your high horse and over yourself. 7 billion people on this planet. And you think everyone thinks like and comes to the same conclusions as you when they read or watch or play? How full of yourself are you?

[@corneliusantonius3108]

@@kiyaleelevyrunaya9495 Well, out of 7 billion people there seems to be little creative originality than.

[@kiyaleelevyrunaya9495]

@@corneliusantonius3108 éspecially when their grammar fails them

[@corneliusantonius3108]

Like yours?

[@bry8636]

Tolkien isn’t ‘just a fantasy series’. That’s what separates Tolkien’s work. Tolkien’s foremost goal was to create a cultural mythos for the people of England (which later became Nordic and Germanic as he couldn’t tease out their influence on England). Tolkien lamented that the folktales and mythology that he loved were lost to England by the Norman Conquest. Tolkien had to go to the Nordic, Gallic and Germanic mythos for the stories he loved. "Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by French-speaking Normans in 1066." Tolkien created a cultural mythology first and foremost and it has been deeply embraced as such. It is fantasy because all mythology and folktales are fantasy. It is not fantasy first, the fantasy is a byproduct of his work as a mythology. So Tolkien’s work is not comparable to modern fantasy. The argument is tired at this point, but it would be no different to replace the great epics of Ram and Sita, Gilgamesh or any number of distinctly cultural folk heroes and mythological characters with Caucasians. Or replacing Achilles, blond of hair, with a west African. When Hollywood whitewashed cultural and historical stories, it was wrong then, just as it is wrong now. (Although I’d still argue that Cleopatra was of Greek and Persian ancestry). Ask an East Indian what they would think of a white person playing Rama. They’d be horrified, and rightly so. Some argue that changes to the skin tone of historical figures is wrong. I’d argue that changing cultural figures is far, far worse as their cultural significance far surpasses that of historical significance in the way a culture perceives itself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting to see your cultural figures represented as they were written. There is nothing wrong with having pride in your culture either. It doesn’t in anyway infer superiority over another culture. But replacing such cultural figures with people of different cultures is completely against the nature of what Tolkien’s foremost intent was… To create a cultural mythology.

[@deriznohappehquite]

Akallabeth takes place over a much broader area of Arda than The Lord of the Rings does. The Numenoreans sailed to Eriador, Harad, the Dark Lands, and even, fatefully, to Valinor itself. Please read the source material before you complain about an adaptation not sticking to the source material.

[@bry8636]

@@deriznohappehquite Your point? That the breadth of area being greater makes it what exactly? That couldn’t be more irrelevant to the point, which was that Tolkien was creating a mythology for a specific set of people. Nor did I say otherwise. Why would you reply with a completely pointless bit of info that is hardly a revelation to anyone and is completely besides the point? Knock off the pretense that only you have read the Silmarillion and that the range of the Numenoreans is some sort of bombshell revelation. Master of the obvious. Slow clap for you. And leave off with the strawman.

[@deriznohappehquite]

@@bry8636 the point being, Galadriel, Durin, etc. are all still white. Numenor was always close to the equator and its people were often assumed to have a Mediterranean complexion. Numenor’s largest ports in Middle Earth were in Harad, until Numenoe was destroyed and the faithful fled to the north of middle earth to be nearer to the elves, where they built the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. Especially when you combine that with what The idea of non-English or non-white people being present in the second age is fitting with the lore. It would be strange to have an all-white cast for the second age, while it would likely make sense for the first or third age which mostly take place in Beleriand, and Eriador, Rhovanion, and Gondor, respectively.

[@bry8636]

@@deriznohappehquite There was no equator until Numenor sank. No equator, no poles. It was a flat earth. For someone who has read the Akallabeth, I would think this would be assumed. Pretty major plot point to miss there. I’m guessing you’re gleaning bits and pieces of the lore off the internet. Plenty of blogs and LOTR sites where someone can present the impression of being knowledgeable without being so. At least enough to provide the appearance as such in a comment section. And I’m noticing a theme here. Those that protest the fan blowback about Galadriel the warrior Queen, bearded female dwarves and so on, are grasping at obscure bits of lore taken out of context they’d never even heard of a few months ago. It’s like ‘Tolkien scholars’ are coming out of the woodwork. Armed with obscure bits of info when it’s overtly obvious they never even read LOTR much less the extended works from which their obscure citations are derived. It’s an attempt to gaslight fans when the fans are far, far more knowledgeable than such self professed pseudo-scholars. So I’ll just come out and say it. You haven’t read the ‘Akallabeth’, which fans refer to plainly as the Silmarillion, bit of a tell for your future attempts to play the Tolkien scholar. As we don’t need to drop names as we’ve actually read the works. And it’s your political ideology that drives you, not Tolkien. Everyone accepts that the Easterlings and the Harad were of a different phenotype. The issues are elves, dwarves and hobbits being of phenotypes Tolkien never wrote. You’re using the Harad and Easterlings to justify why the elves, dwarves and hobbits of different phenotypes exist. Because different human phenotypes did exist, it does not follow that this would justify changes to the aforementioned races. And this is where the racist argument fails. No one cares if you add POC in as the Easterlings or the haradrim. In fact that would be true to the lore. But stating that there were people of color in ME does not justify them as elves, hobbits and dwarves. The point of view of the narrative is of northwestern European. It is decidedly from an ethnocentric perspective. As such the fictional races would’ve been different versions of the same people. Men must adapt. They must adapt over time to their environment with physical mutations. Like skin color. Elves have no such limitations as they don’t acquire sickness and disease. No need for adaptations. So they would appear phenotypically like their ancestors. As there is no need to change. As in, Elves don’t get skin cancer, so there is no need for more melanin. As such, the phenotypes of every elf would be the same. The Noldor appear as phenotypically homogeneous, Sindar, the Silvan and so forth. Meaning diversity would not exist within a group. Like the silvan elves. They would be all one phenotype or another. Not a diverse mix. There is some diversity in phenotypes between different groups of elves. Because they were created that way. But no diversity phenotypically within those groups. Humans are diverse because we had to adapt to different environments and conditions. Elves never had any need to adapt. A need for adaptation is why diversity does exist. So it just doesn’t follow why diversity in elves would exist beyond their creation. And every elf ever described has been described as being fair of skin. You can take that as a literal description of their skin color or a description of their beauty. But it has been used in both fashions. And to have a female dwarf with a prominent role when we know Dwarven society was excessively patriarchal is just wrong. Tolkien mentions a singular female dwarf by name in all of his works and then in passing only in relation to another dwarf. We know female dwarves were entirely mysterious to the extent many presumed they didn’t exist. See Gimli and Eowyn. So throwing a dwarven female in is just completely counter to the manner in which Tolkien wrote dwarves. Heavily melanistic dwarves living for centuries in low light conditions. How does that work exactly? Is vitamin D not a thing in ME? Does it make sense that living underground would develop increased melanin when both such creatures and beings have always been pale in that type of environ? Or is Disa a dwarf from the equator? One of the dwarves from far Harad that Tolkien wrote about so extensively? No, we know Dis’ lineage. And Hobbits? Hobbits were the one race we knew for certain came from and were isolated to the English countryside. So if your appeal to the equator is to be consistent, why would there be diversity in hobbits who were all from the same small region when we know it requires millennia of isolation and great distances between groups of people to create disparate phenotypes?

[@docvaliant721]

@@deriznohappehquite You are talking nonsense just to appease your dogma.

[@Thz333]

Tolkien's stories are best told as close as possible to the source. It is already an established world with very deep lore and it has already conquered the theatres so fans have already established their vision of lotr. So using Tolkiens world like this is unacceptable. In video games shadow of mordor and shadow of war are purely fictional but they still use the lore well enough that it feels like it could be true. But this show is going to be purely false and inaccurate.

[@qplanet]

I am a gay man and I am secure enough in myself not to need to "see me" represented in everything. Fantasy is about escaping from this world and there's no chance of doing that with RoP. I think the actors have been hyped up by the producers about diversity and representation and that's why they are talking the big game all the time. Although I did notice the men in all the interviews were mostly quiet. I am disliking characters before I have even watched the show based on their arrogant interviews.

[@bklacrosse2052]

I too do not understand the incessant need to be "represented". I've read books, watched movies and played video games from the perspective of people nothing like me. I never cared about that. I like interesting characters. Characters with compelling challenges, interesting personalities and a myriad of motivations. Good and evil. But when a character is an empty stereotype made in the name of "representing" I find it insulting and shallow and bad character development and storytelling.

[@SiriProject]

@@bklacrosse2052 Most people don't really care, but PR, consultants and market researchers do care. Greedy 50 something old men in suits and high places are the ones scrambling to "follow the money", rather than regular minorities on the street.

[@kahekilimaui450]

The supposed Inclusion, Diversity and Representation, Is just Thinly disguised Exploitation. Exploitation of the Feminist movement, for profit, Exploitation of the LGBTQ Community, for profit, Exploitation of Race for profit. And I must say: I don't feel "Represented" I do in fact feel Embarrassed and Exploited. Mostly Embarrassed ! All this does, is make things worse. Making our differences Stand Out like a Sore thumb by mis casting us in the wrong roles. Misrepresenting Core Tolkien characters by giving them personalities that are the exact Opposite of who Tolkien intended them to be. Meeting people they never met, in places they never went, under circumstances they never experienced. Misrepresenting Events in a way that is 180 degrees in reverse of how Tolkien intended them to play out. Why do the Elves have blonde pompador Haircuts, Especially Noldorin "Raven Haired" Celebrimbor? And...Why is (their) Celebrimbor 3 times older than Galadriel, when he is supposed to be some hundreds of years younger? For Tolkien fans, there really isn't any reason to watch this series. For those who only know Jackson's films and believe that they going to get more of the same. Nobody is going to get more Middle-Earth content from watching this. Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits that Look like me, are not only unnecessary, but an unwanted Embarrassment and Setback for every person in the world.

[@ericbooth7615]

Why is the "Stray" video game about a cat lost in a world of robots so popular? Where is the representation of humans?? Exactly - the need for representation in media is bullshit. Let the truly creative minds create what they want.

[@khaelamensha3624]

I do love read the three kingdom romance, an epic historical based book... Love it and read it several times... I am a Caucasian French, I do agree, a book or fiction al work is not about us.

[@Han-rw9ev]

Amazon had absolutely no intention of making a series faithful to Tolkien's lore. They just wanted the Tolkien label to slap on to their product. But it's a REALLY BAD idea to try and sell a fake product to people who KNOW the real thing far better than you ever will. Tolkien fans revere Tolkien's creation. OF COURSE, they'd care about it. They take it seriously. Were they just expected to lap up whatever crackfiction Amazon tried to feed them? When someone's selling you an orange, you expect an orange. When you pay for a Ferrari, you expect a Ferrari. When you try to sell Tolkien fans a Tolkien series, they EXPECT TOLKIEN'S MIDDLE-EARTH. NOT 'modern', 'real world', 'updated' 'Middle-Earth' with all the real world's issues and mentalities. Sell Tolkien fans a fake product and EXPECT a kick in the teeth. RESPECT THE LORE.

[@bry8636]

And interjecting modern sensibilities into a mythology is entirely anachronistic. It cuts directly against the grain of what Tolkien was trying to do. You can’t add modernity into a mythology because it’s meant to be a creationist tale of how a people came into existence. Injecting modern values into that evolution completely upends the entire point.

[@Ch-ew9tm]

I misread the orange as organs lmao

[@eliteteamkiller319]

Translation: "I don't want black people in the show." The races are the LEAST offending changes made. Galadriel as Brienne of Tarth is more offensive. The casting is minor and only important to the lore behind the lore.

[@KSmithwick1989]

@@bry8636 Actually that's pretty much Tolkien did with his work. Which is full of metaphors for then contemporary Britain. Although it tends to go over people's heads. His stance on environmentalism is one of the most obvious points. He used Mordor and its vast pollution, as a metaphor for rampant industrialization. Along with forests being felled, to power the various foundries supplying the ork armies.

[@bry8636]

@@KSmithwick1989 Stewardship of the earth is a millennial old concept. It’s not modernity by any stretch. The industrialization of Orthanc is about the only time Tolkien did use allegory. And you allude to this as being just the tip of the iceberg hoping a singular example will be enough to overturn Tolkien’s statements on allegory. It is not, because it is singular. And you e severely misinterpreted what I mean by modernity.

[@glenroberts9831]

The scary thing is they spent $1B on a show and then bring in 2 writers with no experience. How can you take it seriously then ? WoT had some of the most horrible writing i have ever encountered and it's looking like this is going to be more of the same.

[@dacsus]

It's that same thing as with Witcher again.

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

@@dacsus Nay. Netflix did an excellent job in bringing The Witcher to life. The Witcher TV show is very faithful to the books.

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

Nay. Amazon's Wheel of Time is a very good show. Netflix's Witcher is very faithful to the Witcher books.

[@dacsus]

​@@oliveremmettknox7776 lol, what? Both shows totally disrespect the books, especially Witcher - i can paste here all shit they done to characters, to the story, and all nonsesne that hasn't been in the books, and what were in books but not in show. Cahir is psycho in the show, in books he is good dude. Original Yennefer would never try to sacrifice Ciri. Original Vesemir would never try to make a witcher from Ciri, and this goes on and on. New witchers, Ciri killed them, Vesemir trying to kill Ciri, Ciri fighting with Geralt, whoeres on Kaer Morhen (its a secret place, and they bring whores there? WTF?) and many other nonsense, so, you obviously have no idea, waht are you talking about.

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

Nay. Amazon Prime did a very good job in bringing Wheel of Time world to life.

[@bobburgers6033]

I never read the books but I loved the LOTR cartoon in the 80’s and the movie trilogy, watched it over a dozen times. Watching it is a escape from this reality. Seeing the rings of power reminds me of the world we live in. And thats not a good thing.

[@spellman007]

triggered!

[@yourdad6902]

So now that you have to see black people in movies not just real life it's bad

[@timbuktu8069]

Please. Please please please read the books!

[@ericbooth7615]

@@yourdad6902 Tolkein was very clear about the description of the elves. If Amazon wanted to make a multi-racial fantasy TV series, they can make their own lore and history that includes all the diversity they want. Respect the source material, or don't use it at all.

[@toddcaylor370]

@@yourdad6902 The only people in middle earth that resemble black people are the Haradrim, who Tolkien described as "a dark and fierce people". Given that the geographical location of middle earth is ancient lands of Germania, Saxony, Nordic, and Scandinavia, in ancient times, how many black people do you think could be found there? If you look for racism, your mind will create it.

[@emanueleabrami8355]

Tolkien works are timeless. This means that they are not old, nor modern: they speak to EVERYONE, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE. Obvisuly this concept was just too glorious for Amazon owner and producers to understand, and they felt they had to re-adapt Tolkien and decline everything they have according to their taste/political agenda. This is why this series is probably going to be useless and de-naturalized

[@stephanclemens2348]

I think you nailed pretty much every aspect of why we have seen so much Fanbacklash lately. Not just for Rings of Power. Corporations have gone onto selling Ideology dressed up in the costume of beloved Franchises, Legends and Characters because they could never reach those audiences otherwise while destroying the core themes and values of those same Franchises in the process. And this revolts people, rightfully so.

[@thegoblonoid]

8:26 "young impressionable elf"^ She at this point in the story, is already much older than both Elrond and Gil-Galad, like thousands of years older, yet they look older and wiser. Elves come of age "already" at the age of 50. It's just one of many things Amazon seems to not care about and it's not superficial, it's the details in the worldbuilding that makes Tolkien stand out and tower over most other fictional worlds to this day.

[@RoyCyberPunk]

Amazon like many other megacorporations before just bought the Lord Of The Rings IP willy Nilly not understanding the history behind it. They never probably even Googled it and just glanced at the success of PJs LOTR trilogy films but never the actual reason behind it. They never researched that they were actually buying the TV rights to what happens to be the 3rd most sold book in the entire planet translated into over 40 languages. With millions upon millions of fans worldwide of all the skin colors under the rainbow and those are the fans they ended up calling Yatzee white supremacists. They called Arabs, Japanese, Latinos, Blacks, Native Americans collectively for being Tolkien fans reecist bigots and in their unmitigated gall not understanding the huge fire ants nest they stepped on they made the Superfan videos to boot. That show is 7 months away and the rage and hate against it is of Biblical and apocalyptic proportions and rightly so.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

I’m glade this is a higher comment

[@cozenw3236]

I doubt they even took the time to watch any behind the scenes on how PJ made LOTR. Because most fans know that the trilogy was less CGI and more actual physical skills, from the make up artists, sets, and characters themselves. PJ’s Hobbit trilogy wasn’t nearly as good as as LOTR and people believe it’s partly because more CGI was incorporated (also because he interjected characters and a romance that didn’t belong - what a kawinkydink - who’d have thunked it wouldn’t work well?) Rings of Power looks more like a CGI produced, artificially plastic story, that in the end probably has more computer generated scenes than actual actors and actresses in it.

[@queenberuthiel5469]

"REEEEEEEECISTS"! 🤣

[@nathanmorgan3647]

What's preachier than a televangelist? A woke hipster on a mission to 'right' the wrongs of the past through cultural deconstruction.

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Agreed, at least you can turn the TV off.

[@spellman007]

LOTR is not culture. it's a fantasy book for losers.

[@EgoEroTergum]

It's just those same televangelist genes expressing themselves through a different message; the underlying motivations never change, nor does the use of guilt.

[@elirien4264]

They need to sit down and shut up.

[@sertaki]

Spoken like a true reactionary who does not respect and protest to the system you are benefiting from

[@peterlewis2178]

I'm glad you made this video. It's hard to find someone talking about this from a more logical standpoint. Most videos I've seen criticizing it have seemed pretty aggressively anti-liberal in a way that suggests there might actually be some discrimination at play in their opinions. And that only serves as more cannon fodder for Amazon to justify their decisions, plus isolates me a bit. So it's nice to see someone point out the valid reasons that often get drowned out by the minority that are the discriminatory people, simply because both demographics take issue with similar things.

[@nimasamet8351]

I'm Iranian and I really did not (and do not) care about being REPRESENTED! Tolkien's characters are diverse enough! The Tolkien fandom will not have it... All of us who love the works of The Professor know this world pretty well... Unlike most fandoms. Tolkien's books have been translated into more than 50 languages and have a global fanbase. They had a fanbase even before the internet was a thing. This is a united fandom.

[@mafemartinez2235]

Well said

[@Tombadillo71]

Well said. I honestly believe fans have a right to be upset with Prime's new show. It's completely disrespectful to the original lore, and following the backlash they were then completely disrespectful to the fans. On multiple attempts Amazon have tried to get in "Tolkien Scholars" to try and point out good things for fans to be excited about. Only for fans to completely see through the nonsense. What is most insulting, is that Amazon will still make a whole bunch of money from this, and the negative reviews will do nothing, they will shrug off the fans as being bigots and leave the Tolkien universe in the trash and walk away with their money. The only way to show disapproval is for all fans to cancel their subscriptions, but that will only be a blip for them. This has nothing to do with the colour of peoples skin nor sexual preferences. It has everything to do with what was created, intended in Tolkien's beautiful world. #keeppoliticsoutoffantasy

[@wotancatro9479]

Tolkien's work is a love of culture; Amazon's is an attack upon culture.

[@Lexmorningstarnz]

That's a quote

[@jayrob5270]

Ideally I would want the characters and story to be pretty much exactly as described in the books. I'm less concerned with gender or race swapping and more with new characters or inventing story lines, if you are going to do that just write a totally new story and don't call it Middle Earth.

[@Kevc00]

They care so little that they didn't even bother buying the rights to the silmarilion, they just bought the rights to the appendices of Return of the King, basically just a bare bones timeline of the second age and a few family trees.

[@Skipper576]

Thanks for sharing this. I feel strange for perusing in this comment section and not caring about gender or race changes. because i don’t. i dont even care about galadriel being in armor. people are very caught up in identities and the social constructs. i do care about changes to story lines. i hope they don’t mess that up. It’s not that hard, but i’m not a writer.

[@icecell]

@@Skipper576 Galadriel didn't just get a mere wardrobe change though. Her character was changed. There's also _plenty_ of explanation why the colour change was off, especially for the elves. What's more egregious though is the presumptive man-elf union. You seem quite reductive, but whatever makes you sleep at night, oh goodly non-raycist person.

[@josepablobonillajimenez6297]

@@Skipper576 The problem is that in some situations, race and gender swaps are equal to story changes, if a dark skinned dwarf appears, why is his skin like that? who are his parents? what is the lore behind a dark skinned dwarf? why the other dwarfs not notice a person that looks different to them in this lore? its just a nonsensical casting choice because it just doesnt fit with the world, if there was a civilization of dwarfs with those characteristics in lore, then yes go ahead, but there isn't so we have a show on which all elves are white except one and all dwarfs are white except one, what kind of nonsensical world is this? it just doesnt make any sense, its not about identities and social constructs, its just that it doesnt make any sense with the world presented

[@Draezeth]

I'd be perfectly happy if they worked race into the story organically. There are "dark" elves, maybe work that in with some creative liberty. No problem, no need to get angry! But the changes they've admitted to making to character and lore are just... baffling. If they wanted to follow a young, hothead girl... *why* pick one of the oldest characters, whose story is incredibly well-established?

[@ianallardyce4222]

Great breakdown. Tolkien was often asked whether Morgoth/Sauron were allegories for either WWI, 30's fascism, communism or any other earthly evil. He always declined those allegories. But now these show-ruiners know better?

[@MeowlodieHL]

"It just seems like an excuse to wear the clothes of Tolkien while telling a different story." You put this SO well!

[@davidbateleur8357]

I read all Tolkiens books over 30 years ago, i consider myself a fan and a lover of all things Tolkien. The main difference between Peter Jacksons work and Amazons work is simply where each parties motivations lie... Jackson made Tolkiens vision CENTRAL to everything he did. He would not include any 'modern day' influences, politics or morality. Amazon have clearly put 'modern day' politics front and centre to their story placed in the Tolkien universe. The discussion of 'being faithful to the lore' is simply one component to the above point. Errors in the lore are indicators of just where the creators motivations lie. And every deviation from the lore Amazon has made CLEARLY shows where their motivations lie... they want to use Tolkiens work as a platform to push their activism. This shows a clear disrespect to the author and the source material. Jackson on the otherhand, made some changes to the lore but its clear to everyone that they were made as faithful as possible to Tolkiens vision. Therefore showing his respect to the author and the source material. This is the main reason true fans of Tolkien are livid with what Amazon are doing to his work.

[@josemanuelcaballero1162]

yup, basically Amazon is focused in determining how things do they have to twist to carry out the update of what they consider an "outdated message" , while PJ was focused in what he could preserve from the books in a three movie format with the technical means they had available at that period in time. His focus was to preserve Tolkiens themes.

[@danbee3288]

Jackson work was not faithful unless you have a very lenient version of faithful. Frodo, Faramir, Aragorn, Elrond, Arwen, Eowyn, Denethor, Merry, Gimli are all different characters. Sauron is not an eye, 17 years pass before Frodo leaves, Frodo does not fight with Gollum and fall off the cliff, Elves don't show up at Helms Deep, there is no grey company, there is no real discussion of death, Gondor is not a city, state, Ents are not stupid. I could go on and on. However, that being said they were good films. What Amazon are doing is far more difficult than adapting the Lord of the Rings. They are creating a film from myths. It would be more comparable to say Amazon were making a film about Perseus, Theseus or Heracles. The core of the story is there, but different versions contradict each other, new characters have to be created, personalities have to be developed etc. In the Lord of the Rings we KNOW and it is written what Aragorn's relationship with Elrond and Galadriel is. Sadly he has erroneously been cut. But for instance what was Aldarion's relationship with Galadriel or Celebrimbor? How did Celeborn feel about him felling so many trees. These are some of the problems you will never face adapting Lord of the Rings. Even who exactly is Gil-galads father. What is his relationship to Elrond and Celebrimbor? Big calls and you have not much guidance either way.

[@davidbateleur8357]

@@danbee3288 Congratulations, u just proved my point.

[@danbee3288]

@@davidbateleur8357 Not really, I have said many times the spoilers have me very worried, but I will withhold judgement until the series is out. I do think Amazon have bitten off more than they can chew.

[@davidbateleur8357]

@@danbee3288 Agreed, seeing the show will be the final proof of the showrunners motives... are they using Tolkien as a platform to push their own modern day political views or are they being faithful to Tolkiens vision? You cannot do both... thats the problem.

[@gerthoven2090]

“Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin good forces have invented or made” Spread the word! Unite fans of tolkien!

[@johnmarkarth2249]

Having seen this comment about 1000 times. You’ll notice the irony.

[@RoyCyberPunk]

What really ticks me off is that Amazon for example has done a fantastic job with The Expanse and respecting it's canon lore and bringing it to the screen as faithfully as possible and on the other hand they treat Tolkien like garbage.🤷🏾‍♂

[@dimitriwarchief301]

Yeah

[@Redtornado6]

They also ruined wheel of time, another beloved series

[@davidcoleman757]

@Elanor Gamgee That's a great point. I loved The Expanse, but they had the creators on board. Jackson's trilogy was a passion project, which is why it worked. I've seen nothing similar from Amazon so far.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@Redtornado6 Wheel Of Time is fine. It did what the first book did, with a few changes for world building, like steppin's arc. That is a clear foreshadowing for what is coming.

[@Constellasian]

What's disturbing is anyone who criticizes Rings of Power are deemed bigots or racists. I'm not a super fan of Lord of the Rings, but love and respect Tolkien's work regardless. I was exposed to Lord of the Rings as a kid in the 90s when I played the old crappy SNES game and actually completed it with my brothers. I was actually excited when Peter Jackson made the LOTR trilogy. It was amazing to see Gandalf's battle with the Balrog in full CGI that was great for its time. This Amazon adaptation did not excite me. I'm disappointed that the woke is messing with Tolkien's work and not respecting it.

[@dragontear1638]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the same thing has happened to other well known franchises, whether film or video game, with a similar response to anybody who criticises that work.

[@peterlewis2178]

It doesn't help that there are plenty of actual bigots/racists criticizing essentially the same elements. It drowns out the valid criticism, and makes it easier to pass off all the criticism as being that.

[@leonwolf4]

Part of the reason so many are labed as such is the critics themselves complaining about minorities existing as the problem and not writing. Seeing people go "the wokes ruining everything " is a red flag for a reason.

[@guyincognito959]

woke is a term that is often misused, just like feminism. the ideas themselves are older than some chick thinking she invented the apple. they are not to be taken serious, like children talking and trying to argue with adults. not that children shouldn´t be listened to, but with care and perspective. the thing is: when it comes to fiction, there is little as woke and as inclusive as fantasy and sci fi. that is since they began writing stories about war with aliens and about a certain king/thief/pirate by the name of conan, or the stories of Jules Verne that are about fantastic ideas that move the sscope away from our rl petty ideas about how the universe works. these money grabbing liars are trying to pray to the choir, but the choir answers that we all can see their true colors, which is what these people don´t like, and thus they respond with insults. pathetic.

[@Rynewulf]

Well it would help if fans stopped review bombing things like the lore accurate dark Harfoots with slurs aimed at the actors

[@MrBDB001]

I have a very hard time understanding how an "Epic Fantasy" needs to represent modern times. The Arrogance of imposing inclusion on different species by saying things like "Dwarf of color" (WTF) fly in the face of Tolkien.. The narrative they push keeps changing, from we are not changing tolkien to we're just interpreting everything. All this for their "Timeless" story. Tolkien was creating a mythology for England. A mythology wiped out thru foreign rule just like this adaptation is doing. The corporation identifies a group and see sheep. Only now do they realize that a group can be a 'pack' as in wolves. We Tolkien fans are not sheep and we can drag down large prey given the opportunity. Amazon should note this.

[@williamking3301]

I have read Tolkien's LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion (7 times), Unfinished Tales, and attempted to learn how to speak Quenya and read the Feanorean Alphabet. I love those stories. To see Amazon disrespect Tolkien's life-long work, which was a creation of his genius, in such a shabby way and attempt to call me and my fellow Tolkien fans racist and homophobic pisses me off! Sons of Melkor is what they are. I hope the authors of this bastard production get exactly what they deserve.

[@Oracleofcrows]

Then watch the Jackson movies only. Amazon said they are making it look diverse like a world would be. If that is too much for you then just check out.

[@HMan2828]

@@Oracleofcrows The world Tolkien wrote and describes IS already very diverse!

[@ziephel-6780]

@@HMan2828 King Richard: It is obviously not diverse enough! lol

[@henrikaugustsson4041]

Well, I don’t think they’ll SHOOT them for it, no matter how warranted it is. 🤣 It will likely get quite some backlash, though.

[@hoppizilla]

I liked what you said, generally, and I liked your interpretation of LOTR being English Mythology. People would lose their minds if "White" people were prominently inserted into a predominately African, Asian, or what have you Mythology. So, I think it makes sense for there to be backlash from White people in the regard of the diversity (not that diversity is a bad thing at all). I loved the books and movies and I was hesitant to be excited for Amazon to do this and I am very unexcited after all of this drama. I could live with a diverse cast probably but if the characters are simply not who they were, why even have a show? I guess where this takes me logically in my head is if someone wants a diverse show with all of this spectrum of everything with people that is becoming commonplace to discuss, why not just make something new that celebrates it? Going about it the way Amazon is... disrespectful? to Tolkien's work. If he lived today, he would probably have included more "types" of people. But he didn't and his books are a product of his time and have ties to the World Wars and special because of that. Yeesh, I could keep going apparently. Suffice to say, Lex, I really enjoyed your breakdown of this, it spared me from having to read garbage articles.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

The thing is, it's not her interpretation. Tolkien himself stated that one of his goal was to establish some kind of english mythology. As a scholar, he lamented that what most people consider english mythology, namely the Arthurian tales, are in fact more likely to be of french origin.

[@jmlaw8888]

Er no, they are an amalgam of British not French. I have never heard anything remotely credible linking Arthurian legend to French origins. Tolkiens own words were something to the effect of "imperfectly British" -but the key point stands: not English.

[@diersteinjulien6773]

@@jmlaw8888 A lot of the Arthurian legends takes place around the Broceliand forest. That's, litteraly, in France. From what I gathered (I'm no scholar myself), they originated from Normandy (France) and were spread to england when William the Conqueror invaded. After all, it makes sense, as they're obviously an attempt to mix celtic culture with christian iconography.

[@jmlaw8888]

@@diersteinjulien6773 Sorry this is literally the first Im hearing of it my entire life. I dont deny for a second that Arthurian legend doesnt stick to rigid borders but the idea its french is ridiculous. Even if it was brought by the Normans (feasible) rather than them just injecting their own ideas into local legend (also feasible) that in no way makes it French since (as the Normans own name suggests) French wasnt even a truly.r recognized concept back then. Its the same reason why despite its massive Welsh influence its not an explicitly Welsh myth either but a strange "British" sort of one, even though again thats not who created it- just who it was left to.

[@NeshomehPPC]

I mostly agree, but want to point out that introducing Black people into previously White spaces is not equivalent to introducing White people to traditionally Black spaces. One of these peoples has historically been brutally oppressed by the other, and not vice versa. One has had its own history and culture decimated by colonialism on the part of the other, and not vice versa. Therefore, the comparison is unbalanced. Since Tolkien conceived Middle-earth as (among other things) a replacement for the British mythology that was wiped out by multiple waves of invaders from mainland Europe, I like to think he would be sympathetic and willing to make space where it's needed.

[@elvacoburg1279]

Personally, I think that all that they want is to use the "Lord of the Rings" and "Tolkien" names for their own gain. As you said in the video, they could have had the required ethnic diversity and remained true to Tolkien's works by having characters from the likes of the Easterlings and the Haradrim, but instead they decided to ignore what Tolkien wrote and race swap Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits. At least from the promotional shots and trailer, the so called "Elves", do not look Elven, they just look like normal Humans in cos-play costumes, and not very good ones at that.

[@lifeschil]

Amazon thinks they can slap some prosthetic pointy ears on and people are gonna know it's a Silvan Elf😂

[@SuperPico94]

When you say something like: « it looks like an excuse to wear the clothes of Tolkien story, but it tells another story » it is exactly what I say about the Witcher of Netflix…

[@tebrezkhan8521]

She’s explained everything so articulately and the question you have to ask is, if Tolkien was alive today would he be embarrassed at this show? a corporation like Amazon defiling his work? Ofc he would 😂

[@Marcusjnmc]

embarrassed ? nah , it would have never even occured , & he'd be angry his world's name was stamped on it

[@Rynewulf]

Tbf he would have also blocked the Jackson trilogy, which his son tried to do and always hates the end result. I wonder if social media was a thing at the time how people would have reacted to feminist propaganda like Eowyn and Arwen having extra spoken lines and plot points

[@Der0Nibelung]

Being a Tolkien purist myself, you were spot-on on every point.

[@sebastianforsell6981]

You and the fans are right in everything! Amazon has no talent to create. This is only going to be used as a commercial/ money cow. Throwing in diversity- saying we are the good guys. Most of this diversity is just straight up child’s play, completely lacking in creativity and it is disrespectful to everyone. “Even the people that are being represented.” Also are historians bigots? This is history/ fantasy🤣 written about history, inspired from even more history. For example there’s a reason there’s no spaceships in middle earth… Amazons Tolkien experts: “but why, it’s fantasy and Tolkien never specially mentioned on every page there were no spaceships in middle earth! And I wonder who is it that’s so threatened or disgusted by there being spaceships in middle earth?! This is actually a modern adaptation and a chance and opportunity for us to update unacceptable tropes, so you bigots better accept it!”

[@spellman007]

this isn't history at all... wow. massive cope!

[@odin741]

Amazon don't care about the fans- as long as they break even (or close to it) with the apathetic Woke groups, they can then move on and repeat the same formula with another franchise. This has been Follywood's rote Woke formula for 3 years. Shippey would not have gone along with Amazon's intention when he knew it went against Tolkien's Lore and intent- and so he, along with the entire writing staff were fired and a new group brought in who would play Yes-men to do their evil bidding... Only they didn't count on us!!!

[@dimitriwarchief301]

Sadly some defenders will defend this show call us bigotys because we don’t mindlessly accept everything

[@garreonlefay6703]

Yeah, it is rather telling that once Shippy gave them the barest excuse, they didnt just get rid of him. The got rid of the entire first writing staff, not just him

[@squaeman_2644]

@@dimitriwarchief301 So maybe it'll strengthen your testament and resolve. Screw the rest.

[@emilylove146]

This notion that people need to "see themselves respresented" to relate to characters is BS. My favorite character ever created is Samwise Gamgee. He's a man and a hobbit, yet somehow his loyalty, love, devotion, and integrity have inspired me more deeply than any character I've read or seen that "looks like me" Watching Memoirs of a Geisha hit me in feels a lot and I related to the main character in many ways, but how is that possible if I'm white and she's not? LOTR is beloved worldwide by many races, they never needed forced diversity to connect to the story and characters.

[@twisteddman]

these people will literally self insert themselves whenever they get a chance. Its because they dont have empathy. they see skin color , sexuality, gender etc. They define themselves by these shallow "identities" that they use to then segregate everyone else, They are "special" and only care about themselves. the human condition, our common struggles are not recognized by them . to them we are not the "human race" . its "us" and "them" its "me" and "everyone else". they literally can not empathize with anyone thats not within a limited range of their own designated idenity sphere group. if not too far outside of that designation they will support you for the sake of the collective , but they couldnt care less about what happens to you. get farther out, you are evil and deserve to be ended one way or another

[@davidestep2912]

The moment Ms Morningstar stated the the elf in the plate armor was supposed to be Galadriel it killed it for me. Not because she was in full plate, but because she wasn't a young elf princess in the second age. She was the queen of the Valen wood( please don't quote me on that, been a bit since I cracked a tolkien book) and, rather importantly, GLOWED. She lived in Valinor and was part of the exodus from there to Middle Earth after Morgoth's spider buddy killed the tree that made Valinor elves glow ( I don't remember the names, please don't have me killed). She was millennia old by the time of the second age and that's why Peter Jackson always had that hazy light around Galadriel in the LOTR. I would be totally okay with the rings of power if they said it was inspired by Tolkien's work, but it can't be properly set in that setting under that particular circumstance.

[@Marcusjnmc]

the second age was long , Galadriel lived in the realm of Celebrimbor when the rings were forged & may have had a hand(unlikely but could be interpreted that way at a stretch) in the earliest conflicts there before going through Moria with her daughter & one of the rings , settling in Lindorinand/later Lothlorien where Amdir was king till later on. this isn't an interpretation though , it both doesn't have the legal rights to interpret the greater second age & has no intent to attempt to create something respectful of Tolkien's work besides

[@shiroryu]

The interesting thing for me is, that you can see the way of thinking of the producer's and defender's of that show. The logic of the defenders of the show seems to be: "I'm a good person, so if you disagree with me, that means you must be a bad person" That is the thought pattern you see in little children, before they learn that humans are way more complex and nuanced. They criticise a lack of representation and diversity in a european novel from the first half of the 20th century. If you want representation and diversity, why not adapt the best story's of, for example, the african or asian continent? That would be highly interesting, because it would be something new. Look at Black Panthers success, because it gave a great introduction to parts of african cultures. And i ask myself what would the defenders of this show say, if somebody adapted the mentioned storys and cast a northern european actor to play an african fantasy character. This would make no sense at all. Why is it a good thing the other way around then? Another thing I ask myself often about those claims that all critics of the show are just white racists is that: Who are "white" people exactly? Who are "black" people? My friend has lighter skincolor than me, is he now more "white" than me? And at which level of pigmentation do people stop to be "white" and start to be "black" or people of color? I seriously don't understand this. This is a truely binary world view that is expressed in such opinions. You're either "black" or "white", racist or non racist, lgbtq or binary. Don't the people who hold such views see the error in their thought process, that they criticise something they themselves seem to believe in? I personally care way more about what a person IS, instead of what a person looks like. And the defenders of the show who call people racists obviously do not. They claim that I can't empathize with a darker skinned character, because he/she doesn't look like me??? What is this nonsense? These seem to be quite racist viewpoints to me. Why are modern story's so much about how people and societys look like or should look like rather than exploring great characters regardless of their outward appearance? I recently watched the first pirates of the Caribbean movie and i recognised how believeable they recreate the colonised society of that time. That does not mean though, that the movie says, that is a good thing. The movie shows us how things were then and we can think about why it is good that our society is not like that any more. Because in our modern world with social media and so on the picture of a person, so what the person looks like, is more of focus for people, than their inner personality. People who think that way are just flat and bland people unable to connect with other humans because they are unable to empathize with the character of a person which looks not exactly like them or doesn't check the same category boxes as them. People with fleshed out personality's can empathize with people of different sexual orientations, cultural backgrounds and so on by learning about how those things shaped the personality they interact with. People who only see "black" and "white" seemingly can't. Then there's the claim, that Tolkien's work reproduces racist tropes, because all people of not european inspired cultures are depicted as evil in middle earth, e.g. Haradrims, Easterlings. The point they miss is that all the worst characters in the story don't differ so much in appearance as in the twistedness of their character. Saruman for example is Gandalfs superior at first and slowly declines to an arrogant, power hungry, evil man. The Haradrims or Easterlings are never described as purely evil, they just don't get a background because they were not important to the story. Why not write a creative, in-lore background for these cultures for your billion dollar tv series if you are interested in representing other cultures than old northern european ones? The thought pattern seems to be this: "We need diverse characters in our story's (that it makes sense in the world is not necessary), because this shows we are good people and because we are good people, other people should watch our show and learn to be as good as we are." Tolkien's work is about exploring the good and evil within ourselves. If you claim there is no evil in you, I'm sorry, you have obviously no idea of your inner being. Be very wary of people who claim such things or behave like they think that. These people have the potential to be the most evil, because they supress their darker side instead of learning how to keep it in check. I hope most people are still on the path of finding out, what potential evil lies inside them and how they can manage for it, to not manifest in the outside world. Instead of fighting evil only outside of yourself, because you are good and not evil at all. That is dangerous human hybris, because all evil in the present and future will come from humans, and those are not the "bad ones" we have to fight, they all start as normal children like you and me. Our goal should be, to teach kids (and self acclaimed "adults") to face their inner dark side in the process of becoming a real adult and individual person and learn to keep those parts of themselves in check. If we fail at that we produce more harm than good.

[@queenberuthiel5469]

The sad thing is...they won't listen to you and just insist that they're always right. They don't listen to reason. They won't.

[@shiroryu]

@@queenberuthiel5469 sadly true. But if you don't let them bring you down on their level of argument and you manage to argue with reason, there will still be a lot of people who will agree with reason other ideology in the long run. At least I hope

[@queenberuthiel5469]

@@shiroryu The more time I spend on Amazon's comment section, the more I question how people view .....things. "Oh you're triggered just because you saw a black elf?" "Crybabies and nerd losers" "Triggered by strong woman" I've read it all. Maybe this will blow their minds but as a SouthEast Asian, I love Tolkien's works the way they are. What's more 'mindblowing' (at least for them) is that I am "inspired" by Tolkien. To love my country and culture and language(s) more. He's like a reminder to other authors, who also wanted to create fantasy worlds inspired by their own culture and folktales, that if this one man have done all of these, then others can do it too. Hilarious because race swapping and the endless reboots and sequels prove how people nowadays lack creativity. Race swapping and forced diversity is just lazy. It's not progressive and no, Hollywood is not the savior of the "poc."

[@shiroryu]

@@queenberuthiel5469 I agree completely. As a child I thought I wanted to write my own story's in Middle Earth but as I grew older I learned that it's not in my position to think, I could write something as good as Tolkien in his own world. So nowadays I started to write my own world, heavily influenced by Tolkien, and then write my own story's in it. To the lack of creativity I watched a great video a few days ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6TVhaewhJagfrc He nails the point perfectly about how uncreative behaviour is so common in Hollywood today. And they mask it with fake moral virtue, so they have a silencing counter argument. When everybody who criticises you is a racist, you don't have to face their arguments. That's the death of creativity. But as Tolkien said himself through Sam, the most beautiful character of his work in my opinion: Sam: It’s all wrong By rights we shouldn’t even be here. But we are. It’s like in the great stories Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were, and sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy. How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad happened. But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back only they didn’t. Because they were holding on to something. Frodo: What are we holding on to, Sam? Sam : That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for. It's so beautiful that a Story over 70 years old is so applicable to modern times and that's exactly why Tolkien is still so popular. And his great work is what we all can hold on to until the shadow passes and the sun shines even brighter.

[@shiroryu]

@@queenberuthiel5469 your words are so true, because Tolkien's works adresses the deepest questions of humanity. The question that matter to us all and not only two one "group". We should emphasize the importance of the individual as much as we can and as creative writers, that is one of the most important things for good storys. As Chris Gore says in the Video: I spend all day with myself, why should I then go and watch a story about myself? Thats unhealthy narcisism. You can feel empathy for nearly all characters in Tolkien storys because their characters firstly and not group representatives.

[@shawnkroll3950]

Here is the heart of it. He wrote this story after going to war with his friends. The characters are based on friends or people he encountered in his life. For Example, Arwen is based off his wife. The poems in the book were written by his friend who passed in the war. The whole point of the book is to show you the horrors of war and how hard is to keep heart in the face of overwhelming evil and destruction. He lost almost ALL his friends in a war. This is the heart the true heart. It was story of loss and heartache, but also redemption and love. Yes, Amazon can put whatever spin they want, but it will not be HIS work. This is just a project using The Lord of Rings title to get more revenue and it is sickening. The whole idea that people hate are bad people is false narrative because they cannot admit this project is not a Lord of the Rings in any facet. If they wanted a project like this then do a new story don't steal from someone and try to promote that this is his lore, because it is not. On the make it modern theme. It doesn't need to be modern. This story was written after WWI. This was how he saw the world after a world war. As a veteran, his story stands the test of time. It hits home no matter what era. The horrors of war.

[@justsomeguywithabeardx]

When these people mess with Marvel or DC, there's always the excuse of other universes. When you're dealing with people from a galaxy far, far away all you have to do is make sure you follow the tried and tested formulae. The lore, such as it is, isn't that deep in any of these worlds. But LOTR? Ooooh boy. Not only is the lore deeper than a Saudi Arabian oil well, a lot of the fans are extremely well versed in it. Most of these Tolkien Scholars, the one's I've met and interacted with at any rate, are purists. Most of the fandom as well. I truly don't see them letting this go.

[@williamhasty3964]

It basically boils down to what Jeff Goldblum said, "They are exploiting your enchantment"

[@artistguy50]

Never forget when they announced shadow of war and I think shadow of Mordor there was uproar because of how the games would conflict with the lore and whether it was regarded as canon. So for Amazon to just label the fans as racist/sexist is kinda wild. We just want good storytelling and faithful adaptations.

[@Tounushi]

Shadow of Mordor/War I consider to be contrary to the canon of the Legendarium, but the games do dig deep into the lore and take liberties within its confines. Only outright violations I can think of are Sauron taking the guise of Annatar after the fall of Numenor and Helm Hammerhand being a Nazgul. The former is a direct contradiction against the lore and the latter is a contradiction to the book, but not necessarily the cinematic universe. Everything else is stretching the boundaries for gameplay or storytelling purposes. Stuff like Olog-Hai having their own personalities, Shelob being a lesser Maia with shapechanging abilities, the timeline issues, certain character details, the Rings, etc. etc. As games they're entertaining, so no complaints on that front. But the Amazon show... It's one violation after another. By everything I've seen so far, it takes the lore and wears it as a skinsuit while ignoring the contents almost entirely.

[@beardedrancher]

I just wonder how many identity politics they'll inject into this. It seems they pervert almost all films and shows these days with so much political agenda that it completely ruins the whole series. It cheapens the whole experience. Watching these shows are supposed to be an escape from our world and just as marvel did with winter soldier and the falcon, it just became a somewhat artistic representation of the b.s. that we deal with all the time. Way to ruin superheroes, mcu. Ridiculous I'm glad Peter Jackson did it the way he did. He honored tolkien. Wish he would've done something about the first age. That would've been cool.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

I think the worst part is they try to paint fans as racists just because they don’t accept this work “I think this movie kinda bad” “ R R R R R R R RACIST “ Every journalist had to resort that that…. We just want good stories WE WANT TO BE ENTERTAINED!!!! Entertain us. Or we will leave. And leave you. Penniless

[@hadtopicausername]

Seems to me they had their own story they wanted to tell, and decided to jam it into Tolkien's world, thereby ruining both.

[@reddishcarp1237]

So just like the movies?

[@hadtopicausername]

No.

[@pigwhaleg]

@@reddishcarp1237 nah, although the movies aren’t the same, the LOTR trilogy is definitely trying to make a retelling of the books, although you can’t fit everything on the screen that you can in a book. Peter Jackson was trying to retell Tolkien’s work, they are making a story and fitting it with an IP for money.

[@pigwhaleg]

@@reddishcarp1237 9:56

[@reddishcarp1237]

@@pigwhaleg so like what the show is doing?

[@luizamiclea9347]

OMG they so should have done an adaptation of the Easterlings and even the Blue Wizards who “disappeared”, and the struggles of those closest to Sauron’s influence. They would have had so much more creative freedom down that route. Just as an example, I loved Shadow of war and its unique orcs and Baranor.

[@juliettek.9440]

This is where I state how I’m trans, an immigrant, and a person of color. I’m also a huge fan of lord of the rings books and movies. The hobbit book and movies for me were 50/59 but I do love the lore. I don’t think putting someone on a screen that looks like me is representing me, because I’m more than my skin tone. When first coming to this country the only character I related to was Starfire from teen titans. She was awkward, used outdated English, and every other word was something unintelligible because it was in a different language. I don’t think lord of the rings needed modernity, in fact Tolkien wasn’t a fan of industry. He was a simple humble hobbit like person. He liked simple old fashioned things. The one thing I was looking forward to this remake was another scene when Thranduil and Ironfoot were trading insults, or how the elves almost had a glow to them. Not this shirt hairs “modern” elf. As someone whose Asian I would love to see Easterlings but not just because they’re probably maybe Asian. I was thinking even middle eastern. I wanted to see a reference to the blue wizards that taught the easterlings magic and even if they’re still alive. The fan theories would keep the internet alive for quite a while. This isn’t representing “people like me.” You want people of color in your mythology adapt Taran Matharu’s Summoner Series. The book series was riddles with fantasy, racism, colonization, and some of the best mythical creatures I had never heard of. The Hawksong series was set in the Mediterranean, or maybe just come up with your damn story. Don’t use people like me to think I’m going to buy your product because you think I should. It’s insulting.

[@daganisoraan]

What the Rings of Power will be about... Sauron: 'The One Ring is literal perfection.' Galadriel: 'It will be, when it fits a woman.'

[@cynicalPixels]

"The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies." - J. R. R. Tolkien

[@charlesstanford1310]

The appreciation of Tolkien's novels tends to run through generations: I also heard them from my mother when I was little, and I've read them to my children. We know that they're more than just novels: we feel the power of the mythic restoration and inspiration of the author. I like to say that Tolkien drew out the living water when he wrote them. So to hear Amazon's justification of their actions is a special kind of insult. I just finished reading LotR again and read through all of Appendix A and wow, there sure is a lot of stuff written there that happened during the *Third Age* that could be expanded into some really interesting stories ... ??! Glad your intuition saved you from getting roped into a perversion.

[@Makkaru112]

So you must know the Silmarillion too then? Ring Of Morgoth, Children Of Húrin, Of Beren And Lùthien, and Fall Of Gondolin?

[@charlesstanford1310]

@@Makkaru112 I have read the Silmarillion. I got a copy of Children Of Húrin and will work my way through these expanded books.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

It’s like trying to feed dogs meat and veggies and asking what you think a dog will want Fans are 100% in the right. Because their the ones. BUYING IT!!! Their the consumers It’s not their job to accept everything It’s their job. To make them want to buy it And they want the show to be accurate to tolkiens work He didn’t make maps Chsrcters Races Long lengths of history Different strengths and weaknesses Just for us to say fuck it let’s make a novel he would never write It’s like expecting doom fans to enjoy a dating sim. Or metal gear fans to enjoy a dance dance game If your gonna take a property to make money off of existing fans Do that Not . Make a doom dating sim and expect doom fans to come in and play

[@maxprez3370]

Giving the fans what they want isn't any better than what they're doing now. It changes nothing about the soulless and passionless project they have, it only changes the events and appearance of things. But the core of it remains dead. No movie or tv show with artistic pretentions should ever try to please the fans as a first priority. Movies/shows should mainly be made because the people making them have something to tell that they think is worth telling, not for money or fan-pleasing.

[@mafemartinez2235]

Galadriel was basically like an archangel, powerful in multiple realms

[@CaptainDV]

The Lord of the Rings was written specifically for the British people. Tolkien had obviously no problem other people enjoying his work but the heart and soul of the work is intended for the people of his native country. To raise their spirits to give them a different world to live in a fantasy. There's a reason he called it the secondary world. And it's why most of the characters and races in the story are white or fair skinned, because at the time most British people were. Changing his world in this way is almost a crime.

[@Telconsar]

It's just so frustrating to see so much focus on the beardedness of female dwarves and the skin color of elves, when it's honestly a tiny part of the problems and issues that so many people have raised with this show. They're using the whole race issue as a shield to deflect all the other major criticisms of the show

[@dimitriwarchief301]

Indeed

[@Redtornado6]

Exactly

[@aleisterbroley900]

It's not a "tiny problem", it's indicative of not just a lack of respect, but outright hostility towards the lore and the works. It's also an attack upon White people and European culture, and defacement of our cultural icons. While normies may still squirm uncomfortably when the woke corporations and silencers cry "racism", it's lost its effectiveness for most of us at this point, and we're not just going to sit and smile while our civilization is attacked and we are denigrated, demonized, and reviled .

[@rio20d]

"I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have presented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters." - J.R.R. Tolkien “The canons of narrative in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.” J.R.R. Tolkien these are from Tolkien letters just fyi.

[@orangeninja8022]

He's rolling in his grave rn. And the fact that they're releasing this perversion of his work on the anniversary of his death is absolutely revolting. They are spitting in the face of everything this great man worked for. Despicable.

[@jngarrettart]

Thank you. This was well said, calm, respectful, honest, and reflected a good deal of what I’ve been feeling myself. I may end up sharing this video with people who ask about my take on the show from what we’ve seen so far. Leaving aside the myriad of things I could write on and on about, I’ll just say Galadriel and Elrond are both so wrong in these trailers, it’s pretty much painful. Any Galadriel in dirty armor who has to be described as “full of piss and vinegar” (the show runners’ words) isn’t Tolkien’s Galadriel. What they’ve done to her is unthinkable, like smearing mud on a priceless work of art. The fact that they’re releasing the show on the anniversary of Tolkien’s passing also feels incredibly disrespectful towards him. I plan to ignore it when it’s released and to keep enjoying my dear old books and the Peter Jackson films.

[@dzravt]

I'm starting to feel that it's something along the lines of what Douglas Murray said, and I'm paraphrasing "to destroy the West they have to destroy its history and mythology, which includes key figures that are loved". And you can see it's happening to almost everything from comic superheroes to historical figures, etc

[@chrisbruneau8552]

That Peter Jackson quote encapsulates exactly why the trilogy was such a high quality production. Just bring the books to life on screen, don't add anything in. Jackson was so brilliant precisely because he was both restrained and modest, and the result was a masterpiece. I dread this upcoming series as pure hubris and modern day wokeness run amok.

[@MrGlenbw]

Tolkien fans have the right to be afraid, considering how Amazon (the studio behind The Rings of Power) butchers Robert Jordan's beloved fantasy series, The Wheel of Time.

[@stephenbarrett8861]

The Wheel ofTime is 4.3 million words. Anyone trying to adapt it is a moron.

[@stephenbarrett8861]

@FatalPies why not, you just did.

[@JD-xz1mx]

I have zero problem with casting black actors to play white roles and simply using our imagination to ignore the fact. I'd rather have the best actors than the most arbitrarily accurate color. I have *every* problem, with every fiber of my being, down to the core of soul, with deliberately restructuring someone *else's* life's work because you want to alter whatever subtextual messaging you imagine it carries. It isn't that they're casting black Elves and Dwarves. Its that they're casting black Elves and Dwarves to *INTENTIONALLY* insult Tolkien's legacy by suggesting there's something wrong with it, or he was somehow a racist for not checking arbitrary boxes.

[@gobblegobble7]

Absolutely nailed it. What Amazon is doing breaks my heart because I cherish what Tolkien created. It’s a total perversion.

[@QueenDarkChocolate]

Recently uncovered that Shippey was removed from the Rings of Power production because he disagreed with the direction it was taking. And Peter Jackson was ghosted by the team as well.

[@AC-gu9ks]

The beauty of Galadriel is not in her ability to swing a sword but her wisdom which commands respect.

[@tbone6924]

I think most rational people are all for diversity and inclusion, but when it becomes weaponized by companies like Amazon and Disney to a ridiculous extreme, it becomes problematic. When telling a great story that is faithful to the source canon is out the window, and the agenda instead is to hijack said source material to spread "the message", that is problematic. When checking all the social justice boxes becomes more important that the writing and production of the show, that is problematic. A fly on the wall of their pre-production meetings: "Ok folks, let's go down the list here, Gays: check. Non-binary: check. Anti-patriarchy: check. Race swapping: check. Hold on folks! We don't have a trans character! This is unacceptable! Let's get a trans hobbit in the script NOW."

[@Nalumah]

You say that but the mere existence of LGBT people in any form of media, even original, is met with pure and abject rage from tons of people. Sure maybe most rational people are all for diversity and inclusion, but rational people are about half of the population or less. Just look at The Sandman show. Literally has Neil Gaiman himself involved in the creation process and writing; and people are STILL raging about the mere existence of minorities in the show. Or the Vampire movie BIT. I didn't even realize the main actress was a transgirl, until I scrolled to the comments and saw that the overwhelming majority of comments were just transphobic rage posts and hate speech. I mean about half or more of Americans think that I shouldn't be allowed to exist publicly as a transwoman.

[@Rynewulf]

@@Nalumah sadly you wont find much sympathy. These people always want the people being included to be thrown out, their solution is to never relax and let more creative people step in from corporate hand holding: its always to demand the corporations never start treating everyone nicely in the first place

[@makeitsonumberone1358]

Well inspired from just 150 pages to make 5 season show, i think we do have a point.

[@joshpotter9261]

The information in the appendices is more than enough to provide writing prompts to skilled and imaginative writers. Unfortunately we are not dealing with skilled and imaginative writers.

[@ohifonlyx33]

I love the movies... I've wanted to learn Sindarin since I was a child... I am somewhat familiar with the books, and I enjoy trivia and lore breakdown videos on youtube... and The Rings of Power HURTS me. I am not Catholic, but I am a devout Christian. And I know that Tolkien's faith informed his story as his world is built upon a moral framework, filled with ideas and ideals from suffering and temptation to hope and redemption, as well as themes of brotherhood, duty, sacrifice, love, family... all universal truths, transcending time and allegory (and all found in the Bible). Tolkien also didn't write for a modern audience who expects modern characteristics from the characters--these are myths of long ago... and written in a time where postmodernism and relative morality weren't wholly accepted by culture. Good and evil are clearly defined without needing to virtue signal about which was which because everyone knew the difference... and in fact, that's why GoT is NOT LotR and never could be. In fact, that moral clarity in LOTR is actually a criticism by very cynical, very agnostic or atheistic authors like GRRM have with the world of JRRT. They prefer the grey. And yet, Peter Jackson strove to keep Tolkien's message in tact and disregard his own worldview in order to express Tolkien's vision. And the movies PJ did were meant to take us in to a DIFFERENT worldview... not one that is directly like ours. The foundational principles of Amazon doesn't care about that... The only tie these writers think about any religious undertones or values in the text, it's to explain it away with secularism... Make sure it meets a diversity quota, make sure the men are feminists, make sure it's got a woman who fights better than man (even Eowyn is an outlier--her story is about a specific fear of hers and the choice she makes is considered reckless, and though it does work out for her, she also suffers and learns the horrors of war instead of glorifying it), make sure it's intersectional, etc... that's not Tolkien.

[@creatrixZBD]

Just a point. One doesn’t sit down to learn the lore like its homework. You gradually osmosisly (?) absorb the lore as you read the works (and perhaps discuss them with others), and as you come to love the fully fleshed-out world you now have the privilege to inhabit, you seek out and discover more and more, and your understanding of the lore grows in depth and breadth over time. Through the love of the work you will learn the lore. My two cents overall: Amazon’s attempt is cultural erasure-slash-appropriation. Whether through ignorance, arrogance or sheer profit-motive, it matters not. They are thieves and destroyers.

[@mgilcrease1]

Back in the early 90's I used to play bass in a reggae/afro pop band. There was a quasi-medieval themed dinner theater in town called the "Medieval Inn" that hosted reggae night every Wednesday on the patio. No one seemed to be bothered by the chaotic anachronistic lack of continuity. The Rings of Power reminds me of those days

[@grantgosselin7813]

I'm so happy to see that the voices screaming racism are seen as ridiculous and all the intelligent criticism of this mess is coming through loud and clear

[@thijsspijk7695]

"creating a story that Tolkien never told". "The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own" have never been more applicable than now. If you want a story without the "white dominance" in the cast, why not focus on haradrim instead of what they do now. Haradrim are an absolutely broken people after the war of the ring. you can write all these great stories about them overcoming their hardships. Hell, if you want, you can even show "whitewashed" Gondor in a much darker light and more evil way as the oppressor of the Haradrim people.

[@nulltheworm]

I'll paint it plainly: Amazon's Rings of Power isn't meant to be an homage to Tolkien's work, or even the slightest bit complimentary to it. It is meant as a territorial claim over a beloved piece of literature and culture by American Progressivism. This isn't just seen in the politically motivated changes within the show, including lore breaking and forced diversity. It is also seen in the words and actions of the journos, paid shills, and so-called "Tolkien experts" surrounding the show. They set out to make a show that is subversively anti-white and anti-traditional. They hated Tolkien and the Tolkien Legendarium because it was, well, white, and European. The heroes were white and European. The characters, the lore, the poetry and the artwork were all white and European. And that simply wasn't allowed to stand anymore. All of the other meaningful changes are just politically motivated extensions of this.

[@gregjohnson6021]

Since you haven't seen the show yet, you can't possibly know what "politically motivated changes" have been made. What I'm getting sick of is what looks like a well-organized campaign to destroy a show before it airs. And since everyone else seems to be quite willing to ascribe motives to people they've never met, my feeling is that this campaign is being led by a bunch of KZbinrs who discovered they could wrack up a whole bunch of hits and make some money by arousing hatred and anger towards a show that they, again, have yet to see.

[@nulltheworm]

Get this -- I listened to what the show producers and writers, their so-called Tolkien expert, paid off journos/shills, and wined-and-dined influencers have had to say about Tolkien, his Catholicism, and Tolkien fans. Get this -- I listened to what the show producers and writers, their so-called Tolkien expert, paid off journos/shills, and influencers have had to say about Tolkien, his Catholicism, Tolkien fans, and white people generally. I've seen their lies about how swarms of fans were attacking Peter Jackson hiring a gay man to play Gandalf (only like three people cared, because he didn't play Gandalf as a gay man -- an important distinction). I've seen the influencers and paid off shills like "The Tolkien Professor" do all sorts of hamster-wheeling to twist Tolkien's lore (and break logic) to justify replacing white/European characters with diversity hires, and much else. The show is being explicitly made -- by their own admission -- to demonstrate that Tolkien's Legendarium (and indeed, nothing) can be a white/European space. If you're okay with that because you hate white people or Christendom, or because you think that hate is justified if it helps you achieve your political ends, that's on your soul. But this is being done in a milieu in which journos and influencers are making outrages claims like "white people don't exist," "whiteness is evil," and "European countries need to be majority non-white." We're not getting paid to feel this way. But we are getting sick of it. And we're not going to watch this garbage.

[@englishlady9797]

What annoyed Tolkien fans from the outset was that they're releasing the series on the day J.R.R Tolkien died. September 2nd. It seems like spitting on his grave. They could have released it on his birthday in January or something, that would have given a much better impression and started off on a good note.

[@yooginava1828]

These major companies taking things with huge fanbases and completely stomping it into the ground, then saying the fanbase is wrong for not liking it. Its like an abusive relationship. The abuser will always make you feel like its your fault. *edit : Also I cannot imagine claiming to be a "super fan" of Tolkien's work, the going into and completely twisting it into something that its not. You're not a "super fan". You're an actor ( who sucks btw ) because your more focused on bringing your own personalities / beliefs into a a character that is NOT YOU. The point of being an actor is to become the character you are playing. Not the other way around.

[@Nathan-ti9pm]

See I probably would have given this a chance if Amazon had been humble about the fan critiques about the changes they are making, but nope they chose to attack the fans calling us bigots and racists… the final straw is when they tried to claim Tolkien was racist, I will be ending my subscription the day this show comes out to send a message to Amazon… you fucked up when you decided to perverse a great literary legacy by a great man who fought for his country and created this amazing world

[@florencen4884]

I will end my amazon subscription too on Sept 2.

[@davidkulmaczewski4911]

@@florencen4884 Me too.... and I hope I have the opportunity to tell them why. This after being a Prime member (and *very* frequent user) since it's inception. I really hope a lot of people do this.

[@kenaustinardenol1338]

At the end there is just one question to answer: Did you enjoy it? If the answer is 'yes'', perfect, keep enjoying it. If they answer is 'no'', well, nobody is forcing you to watch. When a book goes to screen, it never is an exact translation and btw, there is another factor: your own mind, your imagination how the story and the characters in it are looking end behaving. That's why Fantasy is so alluring for many of us. Adaptation from book to screen is also an adaptation from out imagination to screen, and that will never be the same. I am just gonna enjoy it, because itpromesses to be good, period.

[@alphonsusseketa6679]

Absolutely agree with you I don't need to see people of my skin colour in Tolkiens tales, I'm already a fan of these tales just the way Tolkien wrote them . Tolkien fan here I am not going to be watching Amazon cheap reap off of Tolkiens work . All the way from 🇻🇺

[@lincolnpascual]

When the world's most respected Tolkien scholar walks away from the project citing "this isn't Tolkien", *YES, THE FANS HAVE A POINT.*

[@thorstonmanderlay5010]

Your statement that Amazon don't have the rights to the Second Age is incorrect. They don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, part of which is set during the Second Age. What they they do have are the rights to the Appendices of LOTR, and Appendix A is basically a shortened version of the events that unfolded during the Second Age.

[@chrono2959]

They've all but said it wouldn't matter if tolkien wanted things one way or the other this is their story they're not sticking with the lore or the Canon

[@michaelp9541]

“Evil cannot create anything new, they can only corrupt and ruin what good forces have invented or made.” Amazon MUST remove any reference to Tolkien and Lord Of The Rings From this generic wokewashed fantasy show. It has nothing to do with LOTR. They can just name it #LordOfTheWoke #TheRingsOfNotLOTR #RingsOfSoy

[@generalkenobi3717]

You know what we need? We need a peter jackson and Weta workshop series featuring the original actors for elrond and galadriel

[@1968Dunfermline]

This is the best commentary I've listened to so far on all that's seemingly wrong with The Rings Of Power. An excellent and well thought out article.

[@emmettbrown6418]

1950s: Customer is always right. 2020s: Customer is racist.