The Rules Committee Was Right!

[@seantaft3853]

0:25 that time frame is also about the time frame between set releases these days.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Wayyooo, very good!

[@collegestuff2511]

If your main investment is something as unstable as magic cards, you're a bad investor

[@RedBobcatGames]

This made me laugh more than it probably should have

[@abranlucero7246]

It's like saying investing in diamonds or cars is bad. Everyone knows that they lose value everyday but people still do it. Someone wanting to invest in magic isn't a bad thing. You're just as bad as the people. Doxing or saying death threats just leave it alone it has nothing to do with you if someone wants to invest in something

[@architectofdreams73]

Well it is also a matter of use. You can still use gold and diamonds. If They made it so you can no longer use them, they will drop in value and become a collector's item only. And investing in Magic is a risk, just like any other stock. Anyone that invested in the now banned cards, should have known this could happen at any time. Especially with 3 of them that had been on the ban watch list for a long time. If your only means of financial stability were any or all of these cards alone, then I have no sympathy for you. That's just dumb and you deserve it. Hate me if you will, I am not the one who had investment in card board. What if the game just dies one day. You always have to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. But in every investment, you win some, you lose some. Welcome to greed

[@Sauvenil]

@@abranlucero7246 It's not the same as investing in diamonds or cars. Cars and diamonds aren't a completely volatile thing that can change value on the whims of bannings or changes in the metagame based on new cars or diamonds being created.

[@Sauvenil]

@@abranlucero7246 Also, investing in diamonds is bad... they're useful sometimes because they're the hardest thing we regularly deal with, but that's their only REAL worth. The minute they leave DeBeers' hands they're nearly worthless. Don't buy diamonds, but buy DeBeers stock instead.

[@afluka]

As a casual magic player, when I first learned of EDH, I loved the idea of taking cards made for 1v1 formats and trying to cook up a 100 card singleton deck that can handle having 3 opponents at once. The moment I learned cards were printed specifically for commander (like jewelled lotus), that enthusiasm waned a bit, but I was reassured by the philosophy of the rules committy and counted on them to at least keep the worst offenders in check. Now that it's all in the hands of the very same people who printed jewelled lotus in the first place... I'm not optimistic about the future.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Me either, and I too am not a fan of cards made for the format. I fear it's all down hill from here

[@Card_Gaming115]

i stopped playing commander. everyones playing high power decks (no turn 3 wins but infinite turns and other auto wins tupe shinanigans). had i found a casual circle i may have kept playing it.

[@b1u3frog82]

My play group have considered playing predh a commander format that allows cards only before commander product was printed. maybe consider having your own house restrictions on deck construction when building and playing in your locals.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'll have to do a video on the format my friends and I play at some point. It's for Vorthos nerds

[@blueberryiswar]

@@b1u3frog82 or just only allow cards that once were standard legal, then you are back on the original idea.

[@collardcow4183]

I’ve been saying it since the RC disbanded: WotC taking control is bad for magic the gathering. Not just for commander, but for the whole game. Power creep will go up in every format, cards will get even more expensive, and I wish the RC was still around fighting for the players. But I don’t blame the RC at all, this is on the assholes who sent death threats and doxxed them. It’s just a bad situation all around, worst of all for the RC.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Completely agree. I'm currently working on a video for next week about basically what WotC will be like now they have commander

[@Lowaver]

I can't really see commander being all that fun to play anymore. I was looking forward to playing more commander with these bans. But now that WotC is in control, every decent deck will be so expensive that it's not fun.

[@jonous2001]

You don't have to play the cards you don't like....easy. Some people like to play more than one or two games an evening. No one knows how wizards will truly run commander. Better than a group with no ties.

[@olaf7441]

​@@jonous2001I don't think anyone was suggesting that a group with no ties to the game should take over from the RC were they? Unless you mean that the RC themselves had no ties to the game, which is simply not true.

[@seantaft3853]

The biggest argument against this: Power creep has already been happening with Commander when the RC was separated from WotC.

[@snowperez1864]

*HOLD IT!!* Traveler's Amulet is definitively NOT ramp; it is an example of Mana Fixing, as it filters your colors of mana by allowing you to search for the exact basic you need in the moment, but does NOT increase the amount of mana you would normally produce! That being said, i love your point of making sol rings different for each plane. It's why i love that every set gets its own unique basic land art, including the showcases, because even though lands are such a "yea duh" include, you can still make them Yours.

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's two incredibly good points you've raised. Yeah, I was wrong about the ramp BUT what you said about the land is such a perfect example I wish I'd thought of it to include here. I didn't because I didn't even consider them. There are so many different lands that they don't even trigger that part of my brain that's tired of seeing Sol Ring, and I'm actually interested to see which ones people choose to run. Fantastic observation that illustrates what I was trying to say perfectly. And now I'm annoyed I didn't think of it haha. Thank you

[@snowperez1864]

@@RedBobcatGames always a pleasure :>

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well it was very much appriciated!

[@robertmendez8383]

​@@RedBobcatGamesyour opinions about the banning were also wrong as well.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

​@@robertmendez8383 no they aren't, and the vast majority of players agree.

[@doomexe]

Ok now get rid of the fucking reserve list.

[@RedBobcatGames]

There are some really fun includes on there I'd like to see in a new frame

[@brendans1983]

Just buy some of mine, I got heaps. Plenty to go round 🍻

[@kaid980]

At the end of the day, all I heard when I saw those bans was "Proxy anything over like, 5 dollars". Because it's "just cardboard" and "not an investment". They're absolutely right, l8r sealed product, to the printers I go.

[@collardcow4183]

Conch Horn anyone? Oh, and the power nine too I suppose

[@michaelturner2806]

@@kaid980 Apart from one grumbly gus at my FLGS who was muttering to himself as he was unsleeving three cards from every one of his "casual" decks, the thing most talked about in the random pods I've been in is how the local libraries here will let you print 50 color pages for free every week.

[@wellwellwelp]

It's valid to be annoyed that the bans happened so late that people wasted money on an expensive card, but its not valid to expect people to not ban cards because of their financial value. MTG is a game, the banlist exists to protect the fun of the game not investments.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I agree. Though, I can understand why those people are upset

[@PaulGaither]

Being a veteran magic player, the world around art has been a wild ride. As I am sure you know, Fallen Empires tried to have different art for the same cards, and people HATED it. There was an idea that the art of a card was part of its identity. Over time, with core set reprints and reprints in other blocks, people began to warm up to alternate art, and it has become a mainstay of the game. I agree that having optional arts to choose from help players customize their decks and is a good thing. Even the basic lands.

[@RedBobcatGames]

You know I'd forgotten about that. God, imagine people then seeing the state of the game now. Secret Lair would blow them away

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@PaulGaither no art should cost more than any other art. doesn't cost more to produce but they create a false scarcity around the good art and its complete BS. blows my mind that the community is largely fine with getting ripped off like that.

[@fdkugb]

​@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 If some artworks are more expensive, that also means some are less expensive. I'm all for having alternate art if it means i can afford a functionally identical card as my big-spending friends. It reminds me of the way the pokémon tcg is done. That being said, I will only buy from secondary market now. I disapprove of Hasbro's decisions.

[@strangebird5974]

I was a young child and not very plugged in back then, so I fortunately didn't know that people hated the alternate art in Fallen Empires. I loved it! I would always try to stock my decks with the complete selection of different kinds of art if I were playing for example something mean and black with Order of the Ebon Hand and Hymn to Tourach... which I very much were.

[@louieluigi3914]

Fallen empire's had different art within the set. Not new art each set.

[@andreaspetzold2850]

I think the "WotC designing only for commander in mind" problem will only get worse now, I mean it already feels like as a limited player that in every set there are now multiple cards that are dead in draft but only there as chase card for commander players, especially at high rarity.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I've noticed this in a bunch of sets too. It's why my Bloomburrow video basically focused on it. And I think you're right in that it will only get worse

[@PhoenicopterusR]

Especially with these brackets they're looking to implement. Now we're probably going to see some cards that design-wise are biased towards certain brackets, but they're going to start being pushed even just within those brackets. Like, here's card X, it's allowed in brackets 2 to 4; now here's card Y, it's like card X but way better and will still be allowed in bracket 2 even though it should likely be relegated strictly to brackets 3 and 4.

[@RedBobcatGames]

@PhoenicopterusR Uggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[@schwaaard]

@@RedBobcatGames Well said!

[@Mako276]

#MakeEDHJankAgain

[@RedBobcatGames]

#MakeEDHJankAgain 100%!

[@ryanhefner2011]

I was thinking about how great it would be if we made a pre-2016 Commander format. Or maybe a pre-2019/pre-border change format. Called it the Cloud format for the old men who yell at clouds.

[@solsystem1342]

​​@@ryanhefner2011 I think we need like a tier 0/tier -1 Something where the recent jank pieces can be used. Would help let new players use their jank as well. (Of course they have no incentive to prioritize a good experience for people wanting to play at a lower power level than whatever precon they print.

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

"Make EDH EDH again," more like. Ditch all this stuff that's overtaken the format since it became Commander. Thrust off the shackles of precons and for-commander designed cards and go back to the nonsense!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Only cards printed in packs for standard are legal, (and because I yell at clouds) NO UNIVERSES BEYOND OR SECRET LAIRS

[@A.I.Friends]

Richard Garriot once said, "I don't think any one person would buy a compete box of magic the gathering." This explains the rares.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well, depends on the price

[@Vanity0666]

Mtg foundations starter kit disagrees.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh is there info out about that now? I've had my head in the commander bannings sand for like 3 weeks

[@UnicornLupus]

the concept of a TCG really wasn’t a thing pre-Magic’s absolute thundering in the tabletop industry. Garfield thought people might buy a deck and a couple packs… not have entire collections, or this idea that you can optimize a deck

[@lucy-e8o6w]

7:58 this graph is deceptive since the bottom of the graph is $50, like a $35 price drop is quite significant, but the graph makes it look like the price is close to $0

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sure, but it is that price drop that caused all the fuss. Plus, that's the "official" price chart many go by (I didn't edit it for the video) though I do admit it gave me license to be a bit colourful in my presentation

[@the_devils_jester]

I read the last announcements as "The RC is resigning, there will not be suitable management of the ban list anymore. Manage it yourself."

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean, I suspect that's how it's going to shake out

[@michaelbushee3968]

That's certainly what my play group did. We took the disbanding of the RC as a sign that we'd have to do the job ourselves, since WotC have proved they're not interested in doing so. Sol Ring was my choice for first new ban. Also, we brought back "Banned As Commander", which never should have gone away imo. I call it Rule Zero Rebellion.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Nice. My playgroup and I have been playing our own format for years. I need to do a video on that at some point

[@shrouded8797]

Reject greed. Embrace the casual. Didn't come up with the hastag myself, but: #MakeEDHJankAgain

[@RedBobcatGames]

I've been seeing this and I completely agree #MakeEDHJankAgain

[@jeffmx5923]

Or how about everyone just play the game? if something like mana crypt offends you then just go after that player or quit the game.

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

Wizards definitely wasn't stopping themselves from banning Nadu in Modern, given that it's banned. But I do advise you read the ban article for it! They tried to do The Skullclamp Article for the modern day, and unintentionally just made the most comedic thing possible, because the easiest takeaway from it was "no one designing the set had heard of a two-decades-running Legacy deck that is still rogue tier.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I've heard people say WotC have basically come out and admitted Nadu wasn't play tested, but I'm yet to fact check that

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

@@RedBobcatGames "After the playtesting, there were a series of last-minute checks of the sets by various groups. This is the normal operating procedure for every release. It is a series of opportunities for folks from various departments and disciplines to weigh in on every component of the project and give final feedback. In one of these meetings, there was a great deal of concern raised by Nadu's flash-granting ability for Commander play. After removing the ability, it wasn't clear that the card would have an audience or a home, something that is important for every card we make. Ultimately, my intention was to create a build-around aimed at Commander play, which resulted in the final text." ~Michael Majors, "On Banning Nadu, Winged Wisdom in Modern," Magic's official website, page 1 of 1.

[@JushakF]

@@RedBobcatGames The short version of the timeline: - WotC had pro player advisor board help balance and playtest the set. - The advisory board finished their work and went home. - Commander team within WotC sent initial version of Nadu back saying it would be a bad idea to print a creature version of a card that was relatively recently added to the Commander ban list (i.e. Flash). - The card was revised without help from the advisory board to playtest and balance the card. - The set was released - Nadu was so bad for Modern it got banned. - Nadu was so bad for Commander it got banned. The lead dev of the set owned up to his mistake on it on a blogpost recently-ish.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Excellent read, amazing work from WotC. Wow

[@TheShinyFeraligatr]

@@RedBobcatGames The funniest part is that if you read the article, it becomes abundantly clear that no one on the entire design team had at any point heard of Cephilid Breakfast, a legacy deck that's existed for several decades and still sees some play, which utilizes a similar playline to Nadu.

[@kettlejams9742]

WotC dipping their toe into EDH was dooming since day one. The early precons normalizing sol ring and selling mainly off exclusive printings of legacy-strength cards was a slippery slope towards Commander being just another (eventually the biggest) money cow for Wizards.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much, yeah. And now it's all still downhill from here

[@chcc12]

sol ring was in the early precons because it was a staple in edh already, due to it being a low cost card with no real place in any format

[@RedBobcatGames]

True, but I've never been a believe that something should be done simply because that's the way it's always been done. I think if it got banned in a year or two no one would be that bothered any more (but I also accept that's unlikely to happen)

[@macinnes800ad]

So I saw the title and initially I thought I'd disagree about potentially banning Sol Ring, but I resonate so much with being essentially forced to play it over potentially worse cards that are more fun to use. You're also spot on with the bannings - It's all WotC's fault with their stingy reprint policy and hunger for money that led to the cards skyrocketing in price

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, it's a strong statement I've made here. I just hope everyone actually listens to the video like you have because I don't feel I've been unreasonable. Thank you for the comment

[@Lazy_Froovlet]

People getting mad because "they lost money they invested in those cards" are the worst. If you want to invest, go for the stock market, or f*ing real estate. This is a freaking game. A game is supposed to be fun for the players, that should be the priority. People buying cards just to drive the prices up ruin the game for everyone else. A piece of cardboard costing hundreds of dollars is just absurd.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Like Richard Garfield said, if it was just fancy arts and non-play elements I'd have no issue with it honestly, but as is it's madness

[@MasouShizuka]

As an occasional player of Commander, I usually play older cheaper precons and I've seen someone pull 2 out of 4 the banned cards (Dockside and Lotus) in those games before since they told everyone at the table "my deck's jank and on the level of a precon" before winning on turn 5 lol.

[@JushakF]

So you've played with either filthy liars or people with massive misconception about power levels. Every year I go to a con in my country where I spend most of my three days time either playing board games or commander. This includes welcoming random people to join our usual pod's games. With people like this our reaction has either been: a) If it was quick, just tell them to play something actually more appropriate of the power level of the table now that they've what other people are running. b) Shrug, congratulate them for winning and continue playing the game without them, since these people usually go for an infinite combo that wins without really affecting the board state of other people much.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I am interested to see what WotC do with commander now they have it, but I have doubts about this new bracket system

[@PUDRETE919]

15:50 Traveler's Amulet is not ramp, it is fxing as it does not add to the land count on the table or create mana itself, it ensures the next land drop and the player gets to decide whatevernbasic the need most to smooth out their plays

[@PUDRETE919]

Wayfarer's Bauble would be a better replacement, but it has like 3 in universe arts

[@RedBobcatGames]

You're correct, though I would have just reworded what I said instead of swap the card because I LOVE Traveler's Amulet!

[@tomhowell8398]

I think this happened in part because under the hood, commander is fundamentally bad. Now, obviously the cards shouldn't have been printed, this wasn't the right way to address that problem, and the overreaction to that mismanagement was awful, but I think it got this bad because the format's dysfunctional on a conceptual level. You have a 100 card singleton deck, but that extra variance is balanced by always having access to your commander. But just in case, here's a free mulligan. And a draw on the first turn. And completely ubiquitous fixing. And every tutor in the game is legal except for Golos, Primeval Titan, and Tinker. Is it meant to be extra-consistent, or extra-varied? Speaking of those cards that aren't banned, part of the reason for that is the ban list is apparently only intended as an example of the kind of things that we shouldn't play, not a functional ban list at all. Unfortunately, there's no clear and consistent logic on display. If there was, it would still be easier to remember a longer list than it is to read, internalize, extrapolate, and reach a group consensus from the explanations of why each individual card was banned, but we can't even do that, because Thassa's Oracle is legal, Coalition Victory isn't, and the very first card on the list, Ancestral Recall, tells you that they only banned it for optics as if it wasn't arguably the strongest card ever printed. So people are left to treat the banned list as a banned list after all, except no they're not, because if you do that you end up with the opposite of all the goals laid out in the "philosophy of commander" article and the reasons most people play it in the first place: CEDH, a style of play so different that it's arguably a second format. That leaves us with an accessible, casual format with about the same card pool as Legacy, so you can buy more wins until your friend group falls out. This is referred to as "self regulating" and its frequently cited as a reason cards are actually fine. After all, they can't ruin the game if they already did and nobody wants to play. But we shouldn't worry about buying wins, because it's a social format! That's why interacting too much with other players is sternly discouraged, the cards everybody's' decks are built around just come back anyway so it's a bit pointless to try, there's no reward for being the one to move the game forward, there's kingmaking, there's player elimination (losing your commander would feel bad, but straight up dying is fine), and, as mentioned above, there's mismatched power levels only kept in check by disapproval. You know, social things. With your friends. We want long games where we can play pet cards and overcosted jank, so there's 40 life. But we're eliminating people, so it looks like somebody's going to have sit out for a long time playing nothing at all. But maybe not! 3 opponents with double life only means "long game" if everyone's politely trying to pretend that it does. 40 life with low interaction means ramp, combo, and stax are the only valid strategies. The first circumvents the life barrier, the second quickly overcomes it, and the third is mostly disallowed by community consensus and should probably lead to early concessions anyway, so in practice the very thing slowing commander down is speeding it up. The format is a bottomless well of paradoxes that players are asked to figure out in a "pre game conversation". I've heard people talk as if disliking this idea is somehow immature or anti-social, but you know what? I think I want my pre-game conversations to be about anything other than all the things I don't want my friends to do, or figuring out if we're even trying to play the same game. I like talking with people. I don't like needing to talk about that. If people want to customize commander to suit their group, wonderful. They shouldn't have to finish making it, though. That defeats the point in a format. As it is, we don't even have that: I think commander is not only supplied incomplete, it's impossible to complete. The widely accepted rules provided to us have irresolvable conflicts baked into them. None of this is to say that it's not fun, but put me in a room with three people I already get along with and we'll have fun with an empty bag of crisps, so what's even the point?

[@RedBobcatGames]

I think I basically agree with everything you said. And that's why, to me it felt more like these bans were for WotC than the players. The RC said they wanted to send a message, I believe to WotC letting them know to cool it on the power creep, but it had knock on effects to the player base and here we are

[@PowerfulSkeleton]

Man, you need to make your own video. I'd love to hear you lay all this out.

[@tomhowell8398]

@@PowerfulSkeleton Thanks, but I don't think I've got all that much more to offer than what I put in the post. I think about this sort of thing way too much, but It's not like I have a real solution. I would propose some sort of new format, but that would be missing the point. I think the truth is we had to end up here eventually, and we might just have to live with it now.

[@jeancarlo37]

WoTC taking control of commander is one of, if not the worst thing that could happen to the format, but we have to remember that they can only do that if we let them do it, I mean the only reason the RC worked was because of community support, if other people just decide to make a new RC they could if the community supports them, there's a lot of creators that could occup this space, the problem is whos is gonna want to do that after what just happend? These death threats where horrible and I belive a by product of wizards appealing to "investors", this game always had a culture of people treating it like an investiment, and being completely honest if you think a card game is an investiment your out of your mind, honestly it dosen't suprise me these people acted like that, some people really need to gtfu

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm working on a follow up to this video right now and am also expressing my concerns about what WotC will be like as stewards of the format. I think you're right, and that we don't need them, but I also think you're right in that no one else will want the job. There are some rough times ahead

[@robertmendez8383]

They ruin everything they touch

[@yurisei6732]

I don't think a new RC will work. Existing players will struggle to accept anyone else deciding which cards are banned; the ex-RC only managed because it's been there for so long and it's something you accepted getting into the format. In its absence, WOTC's banlists will become the default because even if everyone hates their choices, they'll be the only ones that everyone acknowledges have authority. Plus, a lot of people play commander partially or wholly at sanctioned stores, which will mostly use whatever banlist WOTC creates.

[@RedBobcatGames]

@robertmendez8383 That's VERY close to the working title of my next video

[@jeancarlo37]

@@yurisei6732 That's really dependent on the community, if people see commander as a community format tham they will play with whatever rules are more fun, lots of people play with banned cards or proxys for example just because their play group is okay with it, the RC just gave guide lines for people to follow, and if the community just decides that it wants to play a certain way then they will play it that way, the power of the RC as guides came from the respect of the player base, and WoTC loses this respect on a daily basis, so I do belive is possible, but I don't think anyone is gonna want to do it

[@bryceduyvewaardt8136]

I wouldn’t describe Traveler’s Amulet as ramp, but I like your point about its artwork fitting different planes and I’d say that Wayfarer’s Bauble can be championed more!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, you're not wrong. Ramp maybe wasn't the best word, but I guess "Mana related" was a bit of a mouthful

[@1423big]

This! More wayfarer's baubles!

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean to be honest I still really like my Traveler's Amulet haha

[@Shimatzu95]

Personally i think rampamt growth and cultivate (maybe with the caviat of getting lands with ths same name for a limiting factor that doesn't hit wastes) would be fine to print either: 1 in every color with specifics for that colors basic land or 1 of each, both for generic mana so every deck can have it Either way these would instantly be cards fitting for a precon powerlevel

[@JushakF]

@@RedBobcatGames I'd call it mana-fixer.

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

Honestly its ubiquity and cheap price is a point in _favor_ of banning Sol Ring. No one's gonna cry "muh investment" over it, after all.

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

Honestly the only real argument to keep it is that it's so heavily pushed in every single precon. But like, you can just swap it for a basic land.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Very good points actually. And yeah, I that could be an easy way to fix already printed pre-cons

[@toedrag-release]

​@@ENCHANTMEN_I stopped putting sol ring in my decks and I dont miss it one bit. Honestly it starts to feel like a waste of a slot after a while.

[@fairygoodmuller8065]

​@@toedrag-release my friend doesnt use sol ring in any of his family's decks and I rarely put it into any new decks i make (exception being a cycling deck helmed by sharuum cause it pays for cycle soo neatly) and i've been really enjoying making decks with a precon budget restriction of around €40 and my other friends are getting into it too. it's very satisfying watching them pop off against "normal" decks and win the occasional game

[@TheHobbyExpert]

@@fairygoodmuller8065I don’t run it in most of decks for various reasons mostly specific to those decks. But if a decks engine used generic mana for fuel, say for cycling or X spells or activated abilities, I’d keep it in. But Animar makes creatures cost less colorless so there’s less reason to use it. Isn’t it fun to appreciate it more instead of just considering it an auto include?

[@auraaetherbladesigma6939]

Also consider the following as well, if Wizards unbanned the hits from the September 2024 ban hammer, not only will it embolden those who sent the death threats to do it more often, but it’ll also hit wizard’s already tainted reputation more and the player base will plummet on mass. But that’s just my guess on the fallout if Wizards were to unban the following cards.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I hadn't considered that, but actually yeah you're right. I hope they don't unban them

[@PhoenicopterusR]

WotC unbanning those cards would feel like the nail in the coffin of reasonable discourse over bans. The harrassers are likely already high on the ego they got just from causing the RC to disband, I can't imagine what they'd get up to if they felt 100% justified.

[@king.eternal5980]

I would agree if the RC unbanned them. But WotC can easily take this opportunity to say "we've taken some time to let the dust settle and we're going to start fresh" then release whatever list they want. I imagine that's what most people expect to happen. Keeping certain cards banned to stick it to the smallest number of bad actors is silly. WotC even told the RC banning like that was a mistake.

[@PhoenicopterusR]

@@king.eternal5980 It's not about "Sticking it" to them, it's about showing them that they can't harass people and get their way for it. It would risk setting an awful precedent to do otherwise.

[@stenstensson2610]

They wont unban them; they will print even more scarce and pushed replacements that investors can chase

[@BrotherAlpha]

13:15 ... No. Sol Ring isn't nearly as explosive as the other cards. Jeweled Lotus let you get 4-mana, two colour commanders out on turn 1. Mana Crypt could get you a 3-mana single pip commander out on turn 1. Sol Ring can't do any of that. Having to spend 1 mana to cast it prevents a lot of the explosive openings. ... 'But you could cast Sol Ring into Arcane Signet, into Llanawar Elves and have 6 mana on turn 2!!!!' Yes, if you have those three cards in your opening hand, which is about a 1 in 3,000 chance of that happening. I'm okay with those odds. Having a 7% chance of getting your commander out one turn 1 is more troubling.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sure, but then I've heard arguments that even Jeweled Lotus wasn't that bad. I think judging things by the same metrics the RC used I'd agree with them that Sol Ring counted and should have been banned

[@MaRiT850]

@@RedBobcatGames that is true, one destroy creature then the jeweled lotus is completely nullified

[@schaedli177]

there are many things most people need - patience - better investment skills - nerves - crab cards - more crab cards - even more crab cards - a crab only format... look what i wanna say is people need to learn how to chill, things aren't looking to good right now and that we need more crabs. i wanna make a crab deck so badly and the crabdate reminded me of why i want a crab deck also i agree with the amulett stand point. sol ring would be a bit nicer if it at least looked differently

[@RedBobcatGames]

CRAB CRAB CRAB

[@kozad86]

You stay away from my shiny Sol Ring, kitty!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Okay, you can keep your one. I say we ban the rest though

[@dalton_petursson]

Richard Garfield did _not_ say "it's ok if the price is driven by non-play elements". He said "i dont really have an opinion on that", which could be argued as tacit approval, but at face value is the absence of opinion, positive or negative or mixed

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, you're right. Very true. I guess I should have said "He didn't openly object to it like he did the rest"

[@daedalus115-2]

as a casual player, my only issue with mana crypt/jeweled lotus was always cost to entry. the fact that so many popular figures/youtubers/content creators all had the pricy mana cards really lead to a feeling of FOMO for someone who didnt feel like dropping more than 7$ on a single card. i could see the FOMO being a lot worse for someone more ingrained into the community. if they simply printed mana crypt as much as sol ring, i could see that card having a similar legacy as for sol ring being everywhere.. i feel like its a non-issue? like sure, a lot of my friends have it, but it never really leads to that big of an issue in the long run. maybe its a competitive-only thing.

[@RedBobcatGames]

It's a lot of factors honestly, and everyone's opinion will be different. For instance I'm not a fan regardless of price (hence #BanSolRing for a video even though that's cheap). I think the reason they were banned though, was because the games where the cards made an appearance lead to one player steam rolling the rest and that's not great fun even for casual players. WotC could battle this by printing even more busted cards, but then we get into the issue of every deck starting to look the same. Which is why they said they made cards like Jeweled lotus rare to begin with. Very tricky situation all round

[@lVideoWatcherl]

As long as Sol Ring is legal, nearly all commander Decks start not with 100 open slots, but with 99. If a card can be added to a deck before the commander, in a singleton format that is fundamentally about variety, I consider that card to be a design failure. WotC, per their recent comments, agree, since they themselves have even called Arcane Signet a design failure, and that is a much less egregious card.

[@jamesguthrie9454]

I get the reason to ban sol ring and everything you said is valid. But i dont think it needs to be because its only $1. Everyone can get a sol ring if they want to, there is no competition and no speculation. Unlike crypt or jlotus. But Wotc branching out on art to make sol ring cooler would be great.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, you're not wrong. But I still think if everyone has a Sol Ring then it balances out and there's sort of no point in anyone having one, you know?

[@foderis8777]

Imagine scripting videos instead of making 500 shorts daily! But it is intriguing you're both super chill at times and very... passionate during others. And goddamn crabdate is brilliant puns.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I'm a real mixed bag. Old school it seems haha

[@Logic-cg7qy]

The RC was right. At least they went out standing on business. The power creep of Commanders themselves is what made these bans necessary.

[@RedBobcatGames]

100% agree

[@PowerfulSkeleton]

The RC hasn't actually gone anywhere, btw. The people on the RC came back for WotC's advisory board. Seems the death threats were a little more tolerable than we all thought.

[@melliott81]

WOTC will ban cards in other formats if a card shows up in too many decks. Tons of decks have Sol Ring and that should be good enough of a criteria to ban it based on other banning precedence.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ooooh, you make a very good point

[@ashmarten2884]

Considering another ‘ring’ card, it seems like they’ve dropped that philosophy.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, true

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

The format would be better without sol ring. I will die on this hill

[@cherry9787]

Nooooo but my $650 judge Sol Ring will drop on priiiiiiice

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's going to be a busy hill honestly

[@cyanidecologne9018]

EDH was a bad format when it was EDH, wizards just made it worse and destroyed kitchen table magic to sell procon commander. It was never designed for format health

[@deyicon1983]

I can see how, but I can also see green becoming dominant.

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

@@deyicon1983 sol ring let's green get a turn 2 explosive vegetation, untapping with 7 mana on turn 3

[@gusty7153]

i have a version of sol ring that i think was for pride or something. really liked the art and flavor text: "the relic has been kept in a place of power, of community, of friendship---distilling magic from the light of love." got it off ebay. it really stands out

[@RedBobcatGames]

That's cool as hell! I'd love it if they did more stuff like this

[@gusty7153]

​@@RedBobcatGames same here, i loved their past secret lair basic lands too

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, there's a few that have been really good. Secret Lair seems to be going off the rails a bit, but there's a few cards out there I think are cool. There's a Fang Frame Olivia Voldaren I really like for instance

[@Azeria]

10:46 or Lotus, as it were.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ha, yeah. Though I think that have really strained the metaphor

[@deaexmachina6534]

Thinking about it. Investors sellin their cards in fear of losing money to lower prices seems like heaven for me. On the other hand. I proxy 90 percent of my decks so i dont realy care :D Hasbro may own the rules, but my printer owns the paper :D

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha! I love it

[@WatcherCCG]

Amen to that. Only "real" cards in my decks are the basic lands.

[@deleteduser3455]

I like mana rocks being the most powerful mana production because they are the easiest to remove. I also don't want cedh to be more blue farm

[@RedBobcatGames]

Very true. In fairness, my issue isn't with mana rocks but specifically Sol Ring. Any 3 cost, tap for 1 I think is fine honestly

[@brylythhighlights4335]

As much as I don't like the circumstances, I agree. Cards that are this strong and this universally applicable are not beneficial to the health of the game. There's no skill involved - any deck that doesn't specifically counter itself by running mana crypt or jeweled lotus benefits from having them. There's no skill in including them, there's no skill in drawing them but it's still GOOD regardless.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, and it's a shame banning them has lead to where we are now

[@nelsonthen884]

Magic is taking notes from Yu-Gi-Oh. :/ This is common practice and will constantly keep happening

[@RedBobcatGames]

I believe you may be right

[@dyne313]

This is the beginning of the end of Commander. The Finance bros will help Hasbro ruin the format.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm working on a video right now basically exploring it exactly that

[@dyne313]

@@RedBobcatGames I think we need to reject Commander and keep EDH as a community run format somehow.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Kitchen table is the best way to go. Just in essence change nothing, and reinforce rule zero chats

[@inochemn3rd]

Correction: Mana Crypt was not only in collector boosters of LCI. It appeared on the Special Guests sheet that was available, at a low pull rate, in play boosters. Collector packs did feature unique Special Guest printings of Mana Crypt with unique coloration, like the one you have depicted at 11:05. This was similarly done with Cavern of Souls.

[@thatmtgnerd]

I find this to be a complex issue within magic. Commander being run by wotc is a horrible turn of events and will lead to broken, format warping cards being the norm. On the other hand I also believe that the less bans the better for commander because the card pool is far to big to ever make "fair" and wizards will print new cards to take the place of the banned ones. Id rather see time put into power level brackets or a elo system like chess. Each card is worth x points and you add em togther to get a power estimate. Can't lie about power when everyone knows the exact power upfront.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Weirdly I'd want to go the other way with it I think. Instead of listing the cards and ranking them, put together a chart of intention. Like "Hey, mass land destruction is top tier. Wanna play only jank? Tier 1"

[@nichan008]

Year Month Day is superior.

[@thebigsquig]

and standard is the best its been in years, but everyone is too busy complaining about the format they have an abusive relationship with to notice.

[@AtomTomZeitalter]

We have a Turn 2 deck in Standard. Standard would be good if we removed some of the RDW cards.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm looking forward to seeing what Foundations does. I wish it well honestly because I think we need some intro friendly starter stuff. I miss precon decks that aren't just for commander

[@thebigsquig]

@@AtomTomZeitalter it’s barely an issue in bo3

[@RPGmatic]

17:44 Wait... Is, is that, Miku?!?

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah... it is

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Sol Ring being dropped on turn 1 isn't as bad as a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus, and it's not as bad on turn 2-3 as dockside. It's also not nearly as bad as dropping sol ring _and_ those other cards. In my own games, sol ring didn't run it out so far ahead that no one could catch up to the person who played it and those people trying to use the 'slower mana rocks' are just outpaced by people using other fast mana sources that don't include sol ring. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe there needs to be a larger ban list. I also believe that we need to shift Rule 0 from 3 people being aware of, and convincing someone from playing a specific card to one person trying to convince 3 other people to let them play a card. Where they have to lay out on the table their jank to get permission to play it instead of asking forgiveness after they janked their way to a win.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I wonder if this new bracket system will help with that. I'm dubious on what they've revealed about it so far honestly

[@king.eternal5980]

I could argue Sol ring is just as strong as crypt, but the real difference is that Sol ring is in 99% of decks. Crypt is in 10% of EDHREC decks, which includes theory crafted decks, dream decks, etc, AND is the smallest subset of the community because the most casual players don't post their decks online. The chances that you run into a crypt on turn 1 and they run away with the game is easily under 1%. Edit: banning JLo is as silly as it being printed in the first place. Neither should have happened. Never once saw that card make a difference in a game that wasn't HIGHLY competitive.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh I fully understand, I'm just a massive fan of the idea that we have to have it for some reason. If they stopped printing it into decks then that percentage would go down. But also, like I said being real just more varied art would probably keep me happy

[@leadpaintchips9461]

@@RedBobcatGames One of the reasons why I'm a fan of Sol Ring over the other versions of ramp is that it gives a bit of an edge, but it's not free and it's colorless. An early Sol ring is what allows a janky, overcosted, underpowered but interesting mechanically commander to hit the table roughly the same time that an efficient commander hits the table. The edge that it gives isn't that great, but it _is_ an edge that slower, jankier commanders need, especially now that WotC have been printing specifically for Commander for a while now. Crypt blows right past that by not costing anything to play while giving more mana, and the downside is losing a bit of health. I've yet to see a commander game (either playing it or watching other people play) where it came down to losing that coin flip meant losing the game, while it was obvious that ramping that hard that early was the deciding factor of reaching the win con. My personal experience is that Sol Ring enabled a lot more cards to be played outside of the most efficient cards, while Crypt allowed degenerate plays with the most efficient cards because of the effective additional two colorless over Sol Ring, while Sol Ring gives a net 1 colorless over just a land drop. Don't get me started on Jeweled Lotus with artifact recursion or dockside getting like 14 treasures (because of all the artifact tokens we have now). Sign me up for more varied printings of Sol Ring though. Sign me up for more varied printings of _all_ the cards tbh.

[@king.eternal5980]

@@leadpaintchips9461 I don't understand.. crypt gives the same amount of mana as sol ring. Ring costs 1 mana, crypt costs a little life throughout the game. If it hits you just twice in a game you've essentially paid 6 life for 1 colorless mana.. and that only gets worse if you get hit 3, 4 times. other than that one difference they're identical. They both do the same thing for janky and strong commanders. And JLo was brilliant for janky commanders. Getting a dumb dinosaur out before turn 8 is pretty helpful. It's not the cards that are the problem, it's your expectations of what people should do with them. And that's easily solved. Talk with each other. If you don't find common ground after a few games, then find a new table. I've seen crypt and JLo in more janky decks than strong ones because those and tutors were the duct tape holding the deck together.

[@MrMartinSchou]

In my opinion, the reason Sol Ring shouldn't be banned is quite simple - it's a $2 card. It is so ubiquitous that everyone can have one. It is slightly broken, but it is so ubiquitous that it'd be like banning aero equipment in the Tour de France, because it speeds things up. To follow up, I'd rather see cards like Mana Vault ($100) and Grim Monolith ($275) banned, exactly because they aren't cards that 10-year-old Tammy and Timmy can realistically get their hands on.

[@RedBobcatGames]

And if not ban them, then print them till the price plummets

[@MrMartinSchou]

@@RedBobcatGames Exactly that. My own pet conspiracy theory is that the RC repeatedly asked WotC to do exactly that with the ultimatum of banning Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus, and WotC basically said "I dare you" by throwing collector boosters into the Festival in a Box that contained those two. I don't have a problem with there being Sol Rings that cost $800+. I don't have a problem with serialized The One Ring costing five figures. I do have a problem with a game that is already pay to win and using lootbox mechanics (don't say that too loudly though - Wizards doesn't want to attract too much attention from legislators), being more pay to win, especially when a large segment of their audience being children. I'm very much with Richard Garfield. Special versions of cards can cost whatever - it doesn't bother me that Post Malone paid $2,000,000 for that version of the card. That's his money to do with as he pleases. I DO have a problem with a card that is SO ubiquitous that it is basically a mistake to NOT include it in your deck is unobtainable by a large segment of the player base, simply because it's not printed enough.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, and thinking on it maybe legislators should look more into the game because, as you pointed out, what they're doing with the rarity and price of cards like the One Ring certainly seems like market manipulation to me

[@thomassynths]

I’m from the US and think MDY is a disgrace. However YMD is goated because it naturally sorts chronically. Disclaimer, I’m a programmer

[@RedBobcatGames]

I keep forgetting I said that at the start of this video, so when I read comments like this it takes me a minute to figure out what I'm reading haha

[@thomassynths]

@@RedBobcatGames It makes for great content. Many thanks

[@JushakF]

As a programmer anything to do with date and times is just such a massive pain in the ass. Also, DMY is the best format since it's in the descending order of importance for every day interactions.

[@RedBobcatGames]

@thomassynths You're welcome!

[@RedBobcatGames]

@JushakF Preach!

[@Warlord1o4]

At 16:25 you were talking about Travellers amulet. The bloomburrow pre cons had themed command towers and a new sol ring art. I really like when wizards gets new art for old cards. I like it even more when the art ties the card to the set/plane that it takes place in/on. But back to the main point sol ring can go jump in a hole. Even if it got new art.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Haha, I agree about Sol Ring but if we really MUST have it I'd like to see it get that new art like, as you say, we've been getting with cards like Command Tower

[@bartoffer]

From a financial perspective, these bans were always just a matter of making the assets momentarily less liquid. Because it was obvious from the announcement that something cEDH would break off: none of the cards are an issue there. So soon as that format coalesced, the prices would recover - especially given that WOTC would be more hesitant to include them in future products if they're banned. That particular aspect did change with the brackets idea, but they would still obviously recover. The brackets system they've suggested so far doesn't seem, to me, like a step in the wrong direction. Standard's issues have stemmed from godawful card design and play design working in tandem, whereas Modern's issues were predated in commander, with product printed directly to it. With the format so large and so uniquely vulnerable to pubstomping because everything was ill-defined handwaving of "oh, your group will figure it out, nuts to you if you want to play pickup though," something like this was inevitably going to be lurched towards.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm working on a follow up to this video that's all about the bracket system. And I agree, it's not a step in the wrong direction but (to me at least) seems to be a step in no direction. I also agree that the issue has always been power creep and scarcity, and sadly those are things I don't think that will be fixed under WotC

[@bartoffer]

I think for play groups, it's effectively a step in no direction - though the upswing of their 'officially' undoing certain bans may help there. For pickup games, offering a central hub of ideas about what the various philosophies of play are and what types of cards populate those various philosophies is a real improvement. Under the current rules and guidelines, all four of the banned cards were perfectly fine in a deck I'd call a '6,' because there was no agreed-upon 1-10 scale that players could reference. And "Bracket 1" sounds better than "I'm a 4," a description no-one would ever give their deck.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I agree, though after having watched the stream where they talk about it... I have concerns. But, I guess I'll go over that in the video next week

[@markcahalan5698]

Wizards high value reprint strategy: Is it an old uncommon? Raise it to Rare or Mythic. Was it a Rare? Definitely a Mythic. Double the standard pool of cards to cut the odds in half? Absolutely Limited print run? Perfect With very few exceptions, the price never comes down. The only thing that happens is the price stops going up

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yup, and it sucks

[@Robotoken-299]

Joke's on you, Rules Committee. These bannings don't phase my Estrid Stax Enchantress deck which has won a few cedh tournaments at my LGS and didn't play any of these cards nor Sol Ring. Touching on the different arts for Sol Ring, we have gotten a few from Secret Lairs as well like the Black is Magic, Space theme and Hatsune Miku lairs. The concerns of WotC taking over the Commander format is very valid. Commander is very different in comparison to the other formats. We have no idea of how many people play commander let alone cedh. And there's no solid data on what this player base would like for the format since there are so many opinions on the commander format. At least with competitive formats we have more solid data based on tournament results to determine what cards to ban and possibly unban.

[@RedBobcatGames]

True, but Secret Lairs not a good avenue for reprints honestly. Especially with the recent changes. Also, excellent to hear about your deck! That's exactly the sort of thing I think the format needs!

[@robertmendez8383]

Casuals will never understand that they don't lose games because any specific cards but because they are just terrible at the game.

[@TheLordRumfish]

​@@robertmendez8383You sound like you have no joy.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I have joy haha. Reading that very much made me laugh!

[@TheLordRumfish]

@@RedBobcatGames Glad I got a smile. I was replying to robert mendez, I'm pretty sure I tagged him in the comment.

[@LittleMushroomGuy]

There has been a lot of Sol Ring hate recently, from a lot of sides I like Sol Ring, I wouldn't want to see it banned. The argument that it would be better for casual games falls flat because, if they are casual games nobody really cares you have two colorless mana more

[@RedBobcatGames]

Maybe argument is mostly that it's dull. But, like I say I think just more readily available alt arts would probably change my mind. I don't complain about basic lands for instance, but if they were all the same I probably would

[@LittleMushroomGuy]

@@RedBobcatGames EDHRec did more damage than Wizards or Sol Ring when it comes to dull decks. People making decks by copying the top 65 cards, posting it online, EDHrec scrapping that info and refeeding it to everyone is the real problem.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean, yeah you're probably right there honestly

[@Yangblaze11]

Dude I like sol ring as well.

[@Yangblaze11]

@@RedBobcatGames There are.

[@BattleAxeRX]

Sol Ring is a staple. Having 10 effective sol ring cards in a deck is practically not even a singleton format. Sol ring is baseline. Level 1. Thanks.

[@RedBobcatGames]

You make an interesting point. I wonder what a 90 card format with them all banned would look like

[@BattleAxeRX]

@RedBobcatGames thanks. Yea fast mana is dangerous. It's bait, and it's greed. Having 1 Sol Ring doesn't make a deck crazy, they are in pre cons. Having more fast mana is just adding fuel. Btw, i really liked your video structure! 90 card with no fast mana stabilizes the game compared to having 9 volatile "afterburner" type cards. It's like a zero chance of no take off games vs a 10% chance that someone will just take off. The game takes so much time to learn and invest in, why make the game more about a chance draw? It's better to use those slots for fun and creativity. I used to hardly even run sol ring if you really want to know the truth 😉 sry i am referencing catcher in the rye because i'm drinking. Don't drink. 😇

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean to be honest that format sounds a lot more fun to me! I do enjoy a slow the nature of what commander can be at times. And thank you for the compliment and the advice on drinking! Much appriciated!

[@JamieHitt]

It is an extreme conflict of interest to have the manufacturer/seller of a product ALSO be the regulator/banner of said product. NASCAR, for example, can make whatever rules they choose because....they don't manufacture and sell the cars. Not even the parts to build the cars. As a matter of fact, unless they want to open themselves to a huge class action suit, they would have to offer "recall refunds" for every card they ban from play. And there's a lot of Mana Crypts out there. Or WotC must cease and desist from both making rules and sanctioning events. They can't have it both ways. At the end of the day, there needs to be leagues that players join. And each league has its rules. Much like boxing, etc. And each event holder may have its own rules as well. The power should be with those leagues and LGS's that hold th events. WotC should just make the cards and stay in that lane.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I've not really thought of it like that, but yeah you're right. I seem to remember so sort of similar legal issue with match box toy car racing, but can't remember what that was about

[@pinkbiohazardmercurialcoll7133]

Tin Foil Hat time: WotC hired a group of people to carry out these actions to get the rules committee to run away...

[@Cookiedive]

I like all the red bobcat's videos

[@RedBobcatGames]

Thank you very much, always appriciated

[@89qwyg9yqa34t]

As someone with a well-above average income and an avid Magic collector that started again after Baldur's Gate, I'm very glad I specifically chose to never pay more than $20 for a card. Not only did I hate the idea of the value of my assets resting on things that can't be predicted, measured, or even seen, but I didn't want people to play against me, thinking that they need to compete with my wallet. Gaming is about having fun and, at the end of the day, if your $20k deck was destroyed by somebody's $20 deck, you're only giving them significant bragging rights, where as the reverse can never be true.

[@TJtheTJ]

I stopped playing MTG when they started hiring women.

[@PsychoticSashimiS]

Great vid! May I add that, as someone who is autistic about crabs, the idea of the crabdate being called that is amazing

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well thank you very much, and I certainly hope you enjoyed

[@marceloaraujo2803]

I dare to say that if they had banned sol ring, (people would still complain, don't get me wrong) the reaction wouldn't be this extreme because at least it would show some consistency from the RC. The fact that they chose to keep Sol Ring just made people that much more suspicious that the RC has its hands tied to WoTC, and that is infuriating.

[@casmiry]

It would turn all Commander decks into illegal pieces of cardboard.

[@marceloaraujo2803]

@@casmiry I understand that… but it would be just a matter of replacing a dollar card

[@RedBobcatGames]

Even with precons they could have introduced a rule that said all precons are fully legal if unedited

[@TheInfamousCloaker]

@@RedBobcatGames That would probably lead to some people unironically playing the Dockside extortionist pre-con with Dockside just to "stick it to the man"

[@I.Re-em]

it's a social format, imagine someone new slightly altering their deck, and someone yells "cheater" at them for using their sol ring, or the awkward talk about "yeah you can't do that..." ​@RedBobcatGames

[@Mo__Ga]

my group banned sol ring, every deck had it, so basically it was just luck if you get it early, starter hand sol ring is 4 mana in the second round, and you're running away with the game.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much most experiences with it I suspect

[@ProfDragonite]

Glad I'm not the only one who's tired of deck homogeneity. It may be the hottest take, but this is the one MTG hill I'm willing to die on. Sol Ring, Rhystic Study, Esper Sentinel, Craterhoof Behemoth, the free spells cycle, one-mana tutors... We need to cull every card that is an "auto-include"- if for no other reason than they make games both boring and frustrating. Bring back EDH creativity!

[@RedBobcatGames]

And honestly, stop designing cards for the format in general

[@ProfDragonite]

@@RedBobcatGames At the very least, stop pushing their power. I'm all for Commander cards, provided they're splashy or good utility. More Command Towers, less Ikoria Free Spells.

[@pumkinswift8263]

There will always be "auto include" cards. You can lower the power level of the format by banning cards, but there will always be a set of "best cards" that still remain in the format

[@RedBobcatGames]

Well then I say we ban those too! Make Commander an all jank format haha

[@pumkinswift8263]

@@RedBobcatGames Then there will be more staples, and we need to ban those. Then there will be MORE staples after we ban those, and we ban those, ad infinitum. I don't think you can ever escape their being a best strategy and best cards in a format once it gets optimized

[@SLURPAUDIO]

just take an extra 2 turns instead of sol ring 😭

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ha! Yeah

[@MacUnderscore]

commander, the reason i stopped playing magic! and the reason many people started, shame they only know the board game format

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm working on a video right now about how Magic's too focuses on the card game and not other media, but you make a solid point. It's not even the card game, it seems to just be Commander

[@tsume_akuma8321]

Honestly I'm kind of glad that these expensive playmakers are banned. Jewelled Lotus and Mana crypt are oppressively strong Playmakers that are so splashable, they likely have Yu-Gi-Oh levels of play rates in most decks. They are incredibly powerful, incredibly fast, and violently antithetical to the concept of a slow ramp. People lost money trying to resell them at a higher price than they bought them? Waaa waaa waaa, go cry in a corner and go scam Pokémon players or whatever. Players trying to make money off of other players shouldn't be a consideration at all. Honestly, cards that reach this price point and play rate should be instantly considered for a ban. It's the exact same environment that got Mono Red Aggro cards banned before. They were too strong, too consistent and too splashable.

[@RedBobcatGames]

It's the players who shelled out for an expensive card just to play it, and then saw the price drop that I felt bad for. Though, the price does seem to have rebounded so I guess there was really no reason for all the fuss

[@chronoatog5650]

Honestly how I view it is mana rocks, essentially out greened... green. The only good green ramp is land into play which forces you to have a lot more basic lands which dont have the power of utility/fast dual lands to most 3+ color commanders

[@TCR_DND]

to be fair he also said that back when 40/50 Dollars was a lot more money its about the equivilent of 80/100 now

[@RedBobcatGames]

Very true, but I think he point overall still stands more or less

[@dakotapettit4894]

I think Sol Ring is different because it doesn't snowball AS quickly compared to the other three. So if they wanted to have less explosove starts then Sol Ring would be the one to stay

[@Fezman42]

My favorite Sol Ring alt art is from the Sheldon’s spell book because its flavor text was just perfect for me the way it altered the text of the St. Crispin’s day speech. I think you’re right with the alt art as a way to at least somewhat address the homogeneity.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I doubt I'll ever like the card, but seeing more arts of it would make me dislike it less

[@Yangblaze11]

@@RedBobcatGames There are plenty of different arts of the card I believe you don't see them for two reasons. First being that you don't like sol ring so why would you be looking into something you don't like, and two since the basic art is reprinted in every precon only people that invest in their decks will tend to look for nice or different art which based on what I tend to read in magic youtube comment sections is not many people.

[@RedBobcatGames]

@Yangblaze11 Yeah, you're not wrong. But every deck has basic lands and I don't find myself complaining about that. If we must have it, then they need to print even more of them with a million different arts just like they do for Islands and Swamps etc

[@H2SO4pyro]

EDH is a format that is played with a commander, 98 cards, and a Sol Ring...

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sadly, yeah

[@Raneboh]

I play Arena specifically because there is no secondary market.

[@RedBobcatGames]

This is the best reason to play Arena I've ever heard. Though, I guess that also means WotC sort of are the secondary market because you have no choice but to buy singles from them so I'm still not sold

[@Raneboh]

@RedBobcatGames The thing is, I can earn free packs and wildcards. If I buy packs, I earn more wildcards. Every card of each rarity has the same value because they can all be acquired by the appropriate wildcard. That means my one ring and a "bulk rare" are "worth" the same. Also, when they ban cards in my collection, they give me free wildcards. It's a more limited card base, but I can play more formats, more decks, and "pricier" cards for way less money than paper.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Sure, but proxies provide the same solution, and they're a lot more flexible in terms of how you can play them. If Arena let you design custom game types, and let you opt out of playing with Alchemy cards I'd be more forgiving I suspect

[@louieluigi3914]

When RC said Sol Ring is integral to the identity of EDH. They ment to say, its the mascot card of the format.

[@obliqueObloquy]

I agree with a lot of points in this video, but I have no idea what you mean by standard being a garbage fire. It's a wide open format with tons of viable decks, and it has been for over a year. Is there anywhere your thoughts on that are explained in more detail?

[@RedBobcatGames]

So, I haven't played standard in a bit. A lot of the recent sets put me off, BUT my comment about Standard being bad comes from two places. One, the outside looking in, and two feedback that I hear from people that play it. And oddly, I've had a bunch of comments on this video saying that standard is great, but I'd say just as many people agreeing that it's terrible. Lots of turn 3 kills it seems. So, I'm still on the fence, but my opinion has changed. It's gone from "Everyone thinks standard is bad" to "A lot of people think standard is bad, but some seem to really love it"

[@obliqueObloquy]

@@RedBobcatGames I think you're seriously overestimating how many people think it's bad. If the amount is roughly equal, remember that people who have complaints are often far more vocal. Heck, I've even seen people say "Standard is bad which is why I haven't touched it since [set that came out a year and a half ago]" Let me say as someone who regularly plays standard and loves to play jank brews and the top decks in the format that it is and has been a far more fulfilling and entertaining format than every eternal format as of late, especially including commander since MH3: Standard is and has been great for quite some time. The format is wide open, and turn 3 kills are basically only a thing I've seen in best of one, which is not a real format. I think many people have problems with Bo1, which means they should be playing Bo3, not decrying the evils of standard.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm hoping to dip my toe back in with Foundations. I just hope it comes with some precons because starting from scratch may put me off honestly

[@Donaldsangry]

11:13 aren't the sets on a 2 year window? Even if it was only a year Commander Master's was last summer and this ban was possibly floated around that time it woukd of been a year befofe that when Lotus was picked to be in the set.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh yeah, I'm not sure I believe the theory at all. As I said in the video, I'm more relaying the general feelings and speculation within the community, to point out how that doesn't breed a healthy relationship with the game

[@Donaldsangry]

@@RedBobcatGames misheard, honestly this has been a giant shitshow over the past few weeks.

[@RedBobcatGames]

@@Donaldsangry It's been a bad time for sure. I really feel for those affected

[@ryuku2]

I like Sol Ring, i don't have to find a different non-basic land whenever i want to make a new deck in a color I don't usually build, and i don't need to disassemble an older deck or keep two decks in a bundle box because they're sharing a certain card

[@RedBobcatGames]

That is basically the best reason to keep them that I've seen honestly

[@ryuku2]

@@RedBobcatGames it really helps when I wanna make a deck out of everything I have lying around, and don't want to get more cards in general.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Very fair

[@artstsym]

Re: Sol Ring - There's something to be said about the quantity of fast mana. A single card which ramps beyond expectation is not as meaningful in 100 card singleton as 5 of them, so "this one very specific card has non-gameplay reasons to remain in the format" can hold water. This isn't to say the card shouldn't be banned, but there are degrees to this sort of thing, and broadly culling the options doesn't necessarily mean every last one of them has to go.

[@artstsym]

Your other points about it still 100% absolutely hold up.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh yeah, you're not wrong at all on Sol Ring. I just wish it was more interesting, or maybe there were other cards exactly like it but with restrictions that limited them to certain decks. At least that way when someone played one I'd be interested why they chose that specific card. But also, honestly just more alt arts would probably achieve the same result

[@chronoatog5650]

I had dockside, im glad the fucker is gone. He hosed any artifact or enchantment deck into really being king making you for playing their favorite archetype unless they hold counter spells in hand for the thing and if they dont run blue- guess you're kingmaking the red player! Edit: Also to add, fast mana really got rid of green's whole gameplan of ramp mana to play creatures, no green spell nets you 2 mana for 1 mana, 2 mana for any mana doesn't exist as safely as artifacts as their is generally less artifact board wipes then creature board wipes. Everyone can play greens meta of faster mana generation (safer too as artifacts deal more with spot removal. Where creature removal at wipe levels is more common.) Green can search out basic lands for most the cards or forests for 2 mana, which gives them a limited pool of lands and forces you to make a deck with less non-basic fast lands which can be detrimental for tri/quad/5 color decks. Generally outside of pushed cards/alpha tier cards artifacts have safely been 2 mana for 1 colorless , 3 mana for any color, there is a few mold breakers but they're locked into having a condition (like only dragons, or artifacts or non-spells.) versus green's 2 mana for any basic land or forest It also has 1 mana for ramp but easily removed, and cant be used turn 1 as it's a creature., artifact creatures pay an extra 1 by using 2 mana for this All this fast mana murders green's playstyle as everyone is playing green at this point with ramp and generally doing it at a better cost. Fast mana rocks, would be like printing colorless better lightning bolt (1) deal 4 damage, instant, split second and destroys the general color pie.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I've not thought of it, but you're right actually. Though I guess nerfing green (which often feels to me like the colour that can do it all) may not be the worst thing I suppose

[@enricomassignani]

7:00 not sure why they called out Strixhaven and not Ikoria but, yeah, that's about the time WotC officially made Commander their flagship format (everything else was dying bcs of the pandemic)

[@RedBobcatGames]

Tbf, they did need to ban Lutri straight out of the gate so you have a point

[@deadmanstoolbox]

My group has ignored the RC and played without paying attention to any banlist years and years, it's honestly great. Just gotta realize it's random people that have no impact on you

[@RedBobcatGames]

Pretty much. I suspect Kitchen Table is the future for the format

[@HangerHangar]

Standard can cheese out "Portal to Phrexia" (9 mana) by turn three now (though unreliably) (manifest dread and flicker effects). From there it's every turn plopping down any creature you can shove in the graveyard.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I mean, that sounds bad to me... are you saying that's a bad or a good thing?

[@HangerHangar]

@@RedBobcatGames Yes it's very bad. That's almost as toxic as modern, just with more RNG requirements.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ugghhh, and I'm getting so many comments saying about how they actually have fixed Standard and it's great now too

[@89qwyg9yqa34t]

Something worth noting is that $20 in 1993 is about $50 today, so Richard Garfield's comfort zone hasn't really been breached at $50. The One Ring definitely broke it, but algorithmically, it's incredibly odd how many non-reserve $50 cards there are. There shouldn't be that many because the more expensive cards there are and the more expensive cards become, the more an avid Magic-fanatic has to pay in order to have a reasonable fraction of available game pieces. Players should have long reached beyond the threshold for giving a crap about legitimacy, because your choices are between all < $50 cards and owning a car, or eventually, a house.

[@eldestfan101]

I want standard to be fun so badly. I came back to magic from yugioh specifically because I wanted a rotating format but standard doesnt get much support where I live so I'm stuck playing on arena where the meta is so bland.

[@PhoenicopterusR]

Literally the only reason I started commander was how bland 60 card formats were getting. Maybe look into doing cubes, then you can "rotate" whenever you feel like it, or look into adding something like Planechase to your games for a little bit of extra spice.

[@vaazon]

@@PhoenicopterusR60 card formats are mostly played for competitive purpose so naturally you will run into the same decks when meta is created. When you play 60 card format with friends it is as fun as commander because you don't need to netdeck and just have fun at brewing. Competitively though pauper appears to be the most interesting one since WOTC destroyed modern with MH3 and LotR sets. Pioneer seems not to take off. Standard - I have no knowledge on this one since I am not interested in a rotating format. Meanwhile pauper has valid combo decks, storm deck, tempo, aggro, walls, burn, affinity, goblins, elves, control faeries. Every week meta at my LGS is different. Affinity is the most common one obviously but not dominating.

[@PhoenicopterusR]

@@vaazon My issue is that, despite early on playing exclusively 60-card with friends, the games felt samey after seeing the same deck 2 or 3 times and I wasn't looking to build a new deck every weekend just to keep things interesting. For me personally, Planechase made it bearable and commander kept things more varied for longer. I understand that's the nature of 60-card and I don't dislike it entirely, I just don't enjoy it for too many games. I definitely forgot about Pauper, which I have heard many good things about. There's also some smaller alternative formats like Oathbreaker (maybe?) that fit the commander deck building but the speed of 60-card formats.

[@eldestfan101]

@vaazon I'm definitely thinking about picking up Pauper. It seems to have most of what I want from a 60-card format, and I can finally make it out to pauper night at my LGS.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm not massively up on standard at the moment, but was under the impression it wasn't doing great. I've been surprised by how many comments I've gotted from people saying they're really enjoy it

[@redpenguin1659]

Travellers amulet isnt ramp though...

[@painfulelegy812]

it will say that on the ending statement, it's a bit rough, because like... TOR explicitly can't sell sets anymore, that's part of why the price is so egregious, there is no more LOTR being sold. They have said they can do universes within if it doesn't self correct price but isn't an issue, but it is on the watchlist. In contrast, it's been hearing somewhat good things about standard & pioneer in terms of affordability and the quality of decks, which is a nice thing to know is the case. Maybe the ship is righting some, but it does understandably have concerns about it getting better still.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, I have my fingers crossed that foundations shakes things up even further in a possitive way

[@califkids3]

Came for the breaking news, stayed for the 🦀 dating. Also, its so sad the fallout from all this especially considering commanders origin as a for fun casual format between tournament games.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Yeah, though I suspect the game will return to more of a kitchen table type thing given all of what's happened

[@erfarkrasnobay]

9:30 Reasons to why standard went down in popularity is: 1. Too many products in the year that break limited-constructed economy 2. Standard became battle of midrange with spice in form of monored 3. Printing more and more card that increase number of bulk cards in sets and such increased price to entry to standard from 0 4. Printing mythic rares as just super strong cards instead of place for unique effects that make balance of mythic/rares worse 5. Destroing competitive progressino of FNM => PPTQ => RPTQ => Pro tour and abolishing national tournaments mean while you can play with proxies, at multiplayer without strict timers, without lurking for 4th copy of cards etc

[@RedBobcatGames]

The lack of standard precons puts me off from getting back into it honestly. And I've had a bunch of comments from people telling me standard is doing better than ever

[@apolux359]

Few months ago I got my first commander precon (Bello), so despite I agree that WotC being in charge of the banlist is a making someone judge and jury, I cant fully support the idea of having a banned card from the limited pool I already have.

[@RedBobcatGames]

And that is the crux of why so many people are angry I suspect, but yeah. I think if they make the cards just cheaper and more accessible all round then nothing more would need to be banned. I believe that was the message the RC wanted to send

[@kristadisgumundsdottir3658]

I was playing a pre-con the other day and had Sol Ring sitting in my hand for several turns until I played it when I need addition mana. I add command tower in all my decks as I like the art work of my command tower and Arcane Signet is saved for Commanders with 3 colors as I might need mana fixing. I also have several removal cards in everysingle deck these days with Sol Ring's name on it.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Ahh, the anti-Sol Ring approach, I can get behind that

[@kristadisgumundsdottir3658]

@@RedBobcatGames I also figured there is a card called Cast into The Fire that can exile an artifact for red and a colorless mana at instant speed, perfect for that damned One Ring.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Oh don't even get me started on The One Ring

[@BanditZRaver]

If you explained to people that Sol Ring is akin to the never ending process in which a person has to continually "upgrade their decks" to "keep up with the Meta" they would laugh at you can say, "But Sol RIng is Casual" But when you say that would Dockside and Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt, they would cope and seethe because they just don't have access to such cards, and are too prideful or embarrassed to make Proxies. Like fellas, open your eyes. If EDH is casual, we shouldn't care, but we all suddenly did care.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Some people cared too much it seems!

[@jaketakenobreak]

As a yugioh player seeing magic players react to the existence of a banlist has been very surprising, it just seemed natural for an eternal card game format to eventually, even frequently put out a banlist especially for a game as long and storied as magic. Another concern I have is the "investor" mentality many have about magic which seems so antithetical to the idea of a game, do the so called investors not care about the game's health, people's wallets and the entry level of the game they claim to love?

[@jonkurp6463]

Travelers Amulet is NOT ramp, it doesnt give you more available mana than a basic land in hand at any point

[@RedBobcatGames]

Correct, I wish I'd worded that differently. Said something like "Mana related" because I think that miswording has distracted from the point I was making

[@mugthemagpie3001]

The problem with the Sol Ring ban is that it would render the absolutely ONLY affordable event chain to a lot of people, Commander Party, unable to be olayed. Playing with precon decks for $6 entry fee, or 25 PLN which is a price lower than your typical one person meal in Poland -- while Prerelease or even Draft events are already more expensive than 120 PLN and this is money not everyone can just throw weekly. Due to the ban of the Dockyard Extortionist, one precon is already illegal during the event.

[@RedBobcatGames]

You're not wrong. I think maybe they could say all precons are legal as long as they remain unedited. But as for everyone else, my thinking is if the other 4 need to go then Sol Ring should have gone for the same reason

[@dragade101]

@10:59, I believe these reprints were already released and only in 2024 did the RC formalise the desire to ban and then speak with WotC before making this ban 'official'. Why I say this, if you believe what the RC included in their FAQ (about the bannings) then its hinted that only post 2023 were the bans fully discussed. Maybe the RC had a board / hitlist of cards; like how Dockside was at the top of it by 2024 rolled around. Though there has been documented cases of WotC doing something directly in the opposition of what the RC was consulted with.

[@RedBobcatGames]

I think it's all a mess honestly, and seemingly several members of the CAG and RC have been openly discussing the bans for a long time. I'm not sure of what went on behind the scenes but I do think maybe a warning or one after the other approach may have helped ease some of the pains here

[@dragade101]

@@RedBobcatGames I think the only warning would be to ban Dockside sooner. Then include, in a press release that Crypt and Lotus were on the chopping block. What feels odd to me is why Jewelled Lotus wasn’t banned immediately. Slap WotC upside the head for printing this. (I was too new to Commander at Lotus’ release and thus couldn’t give any comments. Yet wiser people seemed to be against it from day 1.) That would have been the acceptable time to curb fast mana than being a lame duck committee. Mana Crypt: this seems like a problem child to touch. It was only legal in Vintage and Commander. If you touch this card’s legality in either format, that will hurt players. Rather players should be making proxies and not be spending 100usd to 200usd for a card at a casual table. Any warning that this card would actually be banned; the value would drop. Where as banning Dockside, then in 12 months banning Lotus would be the only ‘healthy’ way to ease players into letting go of their fast mana. (The thing about Magic, we all play for different reasons. Speaking with one of the CAG members about how they view Commander, it’s a world of difference in our opinions - what Magic should be like and how players should conduct theirselves. “Hello, let’s have a good game” and other small chat with an otherwise stranger is apparently not appreciated by all x.x . So in the same vein, I’m sure there are some players who love their fast mana and will stand by quick games. For that, those players should continue to play with fast mana. Ignore the bans, enjoy the lower prices for fast mana and continue to have explosive starts within their pod. - It would be hard to have a strong majority of players to agree that fast mana is bad for EDH and we should all be adults about holding unregulated goods; that these single cards are not investable pieces.)

[@RedBobcatGames]

I agree the bans should probably have been spread out, and I suspect this will all shake out with more people just turning to Kitchen Table honestly

[@jax775]

"The people that choose what cards are banned are actually not responsible for banning cards."

[@RedBobcatGames]

Not any more, that's for certain

[@erikbattles]

I completely agree with the issues you mentioned about ubiquitous staples homogenising deckbuilding. I have also singled out the three cards of Sol Ring, Command Tower, and Arcane Signet as problems, which is why I just don't run them anymore.

[@RedBobcatGames]

Me either actually, but it's certainly odd to see the RC aknowledge that Sol Ring should get banned but then not do it

[@alexgosan5707]

I build my decks without sol ring for close to 2 years now. It still sometimes ends up in there when it was in the precon and i just didnt get to removing it yet or when i plan to play a deck that should compete with the high power players at my lgs but generally i dont enjoy the card on either side of the table and prefer to leave it out

[@RedBobcatGames]

I'm exactly the same

[@JimFaindel]

Now that was a handsome assortment of crabs and terrible news!

[@RedBobcatGames]

"Which do you want first? The bad news or the crab news?"

[@jaysonwashington8787]

My analysis is all the bans did was push people to use more broken commanders and less fringe commanders. Post ban the games have just gotten less fun and too conplex because no one is using a 5+ CMC commander that simply makes Zombies. Its now a 2-3 CMC far more broken commander. I've honestly conceded so many games because now there a stack that no one even knows what really happens or it takes 30 min for everyone to agree before someone says, OK Force of will that. Games are taking 3 hours. This ban along with the 10 new sets and mechanics per year slowed games down to a crawl.

[@partyballoonsnorwich2122]

You're spot on with your opinions! I agree with everything you've said! Well done with your observations and sharing!

[@RedBobcatGames]

Thank you very much, always nice to hear