The History of Trans Science (with

Have you heard about the first ever trans clinic? If not, there's a reason why that might be... Noah joins us this week to chat about Magnus Hirschfeld & the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft!
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References & Further Reading
www.scientificamerican.com/ar...
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magnus-hirschfeld.de/ausstell...
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[@SciGuys]

Are you trans?

[@smallgoosey]

No, but they are pretty cool

[@zakbrand7354]

Yes

[@NoahsNotNormal]

DUHH, IM TRANS ASF, BUT DO I ABSOLUTELY DENY IT AND HATE MYSELF FOR IT, YES, YES I DO!

[@peachscentedskulls]

yep, got the rewards card and everything

[@March2792]

Да

[@LilyJones-mu2cy]

I'm trans and that quote from the soldier talking about wearing gender affirming clothes allowing them "be a human being at least for a moment" put words to how I feel so much it made me cry

[@linvieira9077]

yess I'm trans. I know words mean different things in different languages, but fun fact: the word "transvestite" (or "travesti" in portuguese) is still used in latin america because of its historical meaning. What I've learned is that it was usually used before to differenciate high class, mostly white trans women who had medically transitioned from poor, mostly black trans women who didn't have the means to medically transition, or just didn't want to. So it was a derogatory term, as if the "transexuals" were more trans or more valid than the "transvestites", who were seen as just men with wigs, "traps". It doesn't mean that anymore though, because the word was reclaimed by trans women. Nowdays, for me at least "Travesti" means the same as "trans woman", the words just have different history. "Travesti" in Brazil is an exclusive transfeminine identity, some women like to use it for themselves, some don't, it depends on the person! "Transsexual" ("transexual" in English) is also still used here by the way, because it doesn't have the same historical meaning as the US and UK, and I've heard a lot of people here just think "transgênero" ("transgender") sounds weird lol, which is fair. That's just how I understand the word though, other latin american people might think differently, and that's totally fine :)

[@mikey4617]

Fellow Brazilian!! I love the little language and cultural differences we have around the world with things like this, and even inside our own country and community. from what I’ve seen in younger circles of trans people the term “transsexual” is falling out of use, partially due to influence from other countries I believe, but I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing, if anything it’s quite interesting to see the way things change with time

[@fulanodetal3000]

@@mikey4617what do younger trans brazilians use now?

[@aylen7062]

I'm an Argentinian transfem. We sometimes use terms like travesti, trava, travo, etc. to mean trans, transfem, transmasc, etc. but only among other trans people, often in a comedic way. Feels bad and transphobic when cis people say it (+ they usually also make sure to misgender the person they are talking about). It's a slur in most contexts but there are exceptions (some people identify themselves as such, I've heard).

[@alexrose20]

This is such an important episode. You somehow managed to capture all of my anxieties about the current state of the world. As a trans person, I hope people take these signs of fascism seriously.

[@WaffleSalad]

It’s insane there’s literal politicians saying trans people need to be eradicated and people treat us like we are being dramatic when we bring up how scary it is that 1 someone said that 2 they felt comfortable saying that in public and 3 that this person has literal supporters. Like wtf

[@haukenot3345]

The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft being opened in 1919 places Hirschfeld in the context of the Weimar Republic, which was the first, unfortunately short-lived German democratic state after the end of imperialism. Especially Berlin during the "Golden Twenties" was amazingly international and liberally-minded. Unfortunately, Germany's economy took a plunge during the 1929 depression, and the combination of imperialistic nostalgia, economic distress and anti-liberal sentiment paved the way for the Nazis.

[@CoolestSwordFighter]

ywnbaw + 52%

[@forest7638]

#transrightsarehumanrights

[@Ross-cecil]

next time you guys talk about something like Hirschfeld or the science of race you should try to have someone Jewish on the podcast. The things that Jewish kids are taught in sunday school is different than what Sunday school at church will teach you

[@dsagacity]

Yes, I’m trans. I’m really grateful for the LGBT episodes especially. I grew up in a home where false narratives were deeply engrained into my little mind and you’ve done a great deal to help me unlearn that and understand why I am who I am and how to better understand those around me. Thank you!

[@philliproth5012]

Saw a really digusting AfD poster today on the way to a protest. It's sickening to see that this is happening right here right now.

[@mousethehuman7179]

Also how the CSU was meeting up with Ron DeSantis to copy his talking points?? They knowingly import transphobia and hate rethorics, it's disgusting and scary because there is no real public discussion about it while this hate effects the freedom and safety of so many people already.

[@catherinemills2740]

AfD? sorry idk what you mean?😊

[@philliproth5012]

@@catherinemills2740 it's a right wing party. They protested a drag queen story hour in our city recently. Their rethoric is getting about as extreme as in the US at the moment.

[@mikey4617]

20:35 I’m brazilian of German descent and my German last name doesn’t track in Germany. It’s actually crazy the amount of people with stories like this there are around here, specially over in the south. I had a friend with a French sounding last name that was always told her family was French, then took a dna test and found out she’s actually a German descendant, she did some research and yep, her French last name doesn’t track in France either. Not to mention the suspicious lack of any documentation left from anything above my grandparents and the nazi doctor buried in a campus in my city.

[@NoahsNotNormal]

YES I AM TRANS CORRY, BUT I PICKED MY NAME CUZ OF NOAH AND NOAH HELPED ME SM, OBVIOUSLY U TOO CORRY LOL. U GUYS ARE ACTUALLY MY ONLY REASON TO LIVE LIKE NOT EVEN LYING

[@scottcountryman6090]

Please find another reason to live than KZbin characters

[@NoahsNotNormal]

@@scottcountryman6090 probably should but my brain don't work like that ahaha

[@planetaryg0]

ah i hope things get better for u soon :)

[@SaszaDerRoyt]

One of my grandparents was also Argentine-German, but for the opposite reasons, he fled in the early 30s because he was a Jewish German kid whose parents were active antifascist organisers that had to flee even earlier. So there were basically two generations of opposing immigrants in Argentina from Germany. He ended up moving to Israel in the 50s

[@aylen7062]

And there were also German-Russians who came to Argentina in the 1890s (I'm descended from them) and Germans who came fleeing from WWI and the famine it caused, etc. Yet people in other countries seem to think our only German immigration was the Nazis lol. This is a weird place were jews, nazis, starving farmers and other european groups came to seek refuge and be given the lands taken to the natives who died in concentration camps.

[@samlawlor3608]

loved this episode! i think it would be very interesting if you guys did a episode on dyslexia!

[@charlieblah]

Nice episode, very interesting point about the persecution in the interwar period - you can tell luke the real german word for witchcraft is Hexerei (hex-eer-rye)

[@yohanrives3752]

It's still the same etymology though..

[@silkedavid8876]

Thanks for this episode. I am German but live in the UK. In my hometown of Hamburg the LGBT+ centre is called the Magnus Hirschfeld Centre, so the name was always familiar to me, but I did not know his story.

[@antonhaq3503]

It is crazy how much language has changed over the last 20 years, particularly stuff pertaining to gender and sexuality.

[@heyheyitsvey]

I'm not trans, but I love your videos! Always bringing a smile to my face, and I've learned a lot too!

[@sciencefreakdog]

For anyone curious, Wissenschaft is science (and not witchcraft), though I would say Natural Philosophy and Alchemy did resemble witchcraft more than modern science sometimes.

[@indie_arts]

Yes I am trans and u, noah, jammie and Ezra butler have been a good help

[@dq8431]

love ezra!

[@soilderisahealslut6614]

I am a very happy trans man who has watched both your's and Noah's content for years!🎉😊

[@bruce8443]

Great show. This is the context that needs to be remembered when watching the show "Cabaret."

[@neonblkhole]

if I remember correctly, Eddy izzard labels himself as a transvestite, so some ppl do still use it

[@chester1882]

NOAH GOT A HAIR CUT - HE LOOKS SO HANDSOME!

[@lillyblackblood]

Ur pronounciation of german places is pretty good ngl. Especally that last "Wissenschaft". I actually know what you're trying to say which is suprisingly uncommon on youtube.

[@paulhammond6978]

HG Wells was a proponent of Eugenics too, and he was a progressive, socialist and all that stuff. The argument that made sense then was that humans use selective breeding to improve the stock of domesticated animals, so once we understood natural selection, using those techniques to improve human "stock" also seemed like a good idea. Only, once Hitler implemented those ideas people saw more of what they would mean in practice, and those ideas all got so heavily associated with the Nazis that the rest of the world went off it pretty quick.

[@johnlondonbimeetup7961]

Any time people want to do eugenics, it basically always ends up that way. Its never worked out well. Whoever gets to decide where the line is of who dies and who lives, has way too much power - god like, in fact, and the line always tends to be pushed towards killing minorities.

[@joepvanleuken7898]

i went to the memorial of the book burnings in berlin, they talked a little about this institute!

[@mahrinui18]

Can we get a part 2 of post-Hirschfeld developments?

[@rapchee]

i only studied german for a few years but i think "wissenschaft" can be translated as "knowledge craft"

[@ichsehnursoaus]

wissen is knowledge and schaft... well... it's just shaft, i guess xD or -ship. like in relationship

[@WaffleSalad]

Thank you for this video! I am always fascinated by this stuff. I had looked it up recently and was bombarded with anti trans propaganda which was pretty annoying. I know I’ve watched a video in the past on a bad doctor in the history of trans medical care (I think the vid mentioned that he pretended to do gender affirming care for trans people but he was just preforming experiments bc he could and this was all happening under the table. I think a guy woke up in a hotel with his arm amputated) I couldn’t find the vid and just ended up getting triggered by all the “the kids are being tricked into being trans” videos. It was nice to see this vid that’s actually talking about science and history so ty!

[@SnowWolf7]

Yes

[@elijabutterfly6154]

Names in different languages are hard... Can you show the names and maybe some difficult but important words on screen. English is my second language and it would realy help me to understand. Thanks in advance :)

[@eclypsed7525]

yess woo and proud!

[@diIbert]

We commonly use eugenics all the time in farming, animal breeding, weed strains.

[@SciGuys]

No we don't. We use artificial selection. Eugenics is pseudoscience which misuses these principles, they're not interchangeable concepts.

[@leekestner1554]

Nien, witchcraft is hexenkraft, perhaps hexenschaft as a synonym.

[@ravensong7128]

16:11 i'm so glad you said that! i've been saying that this bs is eugenics--as if someone with a mental illness can't offer a unique culmination of skills and characteristics that benefit the world around them and the gene pool anyways! it's all so messed up how it slides under so many people's radar, and worse how many people that claim they're not bigoted or elitist but will literally say a certain group of people aren't fit to breed just because they're differently abled.

[@nelsonkaiowa4347]

Peaple who call themselves transsexual usually just want to express they had "the operations". I had a discussion about this with an american transwoman that got really angry that I was using the term transgender because she "didn´t pay for all that to not be called by what I am ". In Brasil "travesti" is the same as trans (some will get breast implants or/and take hormones) but also just crossdressing gay and definitely not a slur. The dutch were also very advanced very early.

[@Droid5X]

Wow the ad I got for this video was for a propaganda/politically motivated docudrama intended to convince that transition is bad and whatever. Hey KZbin? Maybe not the right ad for this video? Or a good ad at all, come to think of it. Just let us live and let live, okay?

[@ClownlyChuckles]

This is so crazy, I'm trans too.

[@theotherrat]

I am in fact trans. Things happened and now I'm here

[@gummynoodles9036]

32:00 everyone (viewers too) having the same reaction 😢

[@pbgv399]

I sure am

[@thecrowsarecoming538]

yes

[@Mx-Alba]

5:25 I agree with Noah. Richard Hammond is cute! 🤣

[@d4bus9318]

to answer the question, yes.

[@wearesunrise]

Yes I am

[@theplot1816]

Kinda I think I’m gender fluid but I plan to undergo medical transition starting in a few months so essentially

[@frickfrickfrickfrickfrickfrick]

Yes I am trans.

[@vanessamonster5038]

Am I trans? Yes. You guys do great videos.

[@martindrew3513]

I enjoyed the offerings of Luke, I don't think I'd ever heard him put three sentences in a row.

[@motadelladelamorte]

Here in Germany we still use the term "Transvestit" for drag artists, but thankfully not for transpeople anymore. But a lot of the older folks still get this messed up...

[@anfdres1]

hell yeah

[@nickstape2572]

magnus hirschfeld is the only reason I sometimes consider patriotism, then I remind myself how stupid it is and that we literally still have nazis in parliament. whenever I hear or read about magnus hirschfeld I'm fascinated but instantly get very sad. I can't exactly explain why but it hurts so fucking much to have a part of your history taken away from the fucking nazis while a nazi party continues to threaten trans lives in germany. we could be at a much better place and that's so frustrating

[@tinyluv]

Yes I aaaaaaam ❤

[@mrIanovic]

My uncle calls himself a transvestite so it's def a term that the older generation feels generally ok with using. I think if he was born in the 90's he would probably be a trans woman now. But for now he mostly just dresses like a woman and uses a feminine name among friends.

[@Noarobyn93]

I find it really interesting how the way you, talk about WWll and the Nazis compares to how I‘ve been thought to think about it as a German. I wouldn‘t say, restricting the rights of minorities was a warning sign for the war, it was a fascist regime. The NS regime. And it was the holocaust and all those things were going on and were abhorrent on their own, regardless of the war, which was also abhorrent. Of course those things can‘t be disconnected from one another entirely. The NS regime and the holocaust were the fascism and forgetting that, in extreme cases Leads to people accepting things like when Candace Owens said, the bad thing about Hitler was when he was looking beyond the borders of Germany. Like, no. War isn‘t fascism. Fascism is fascism.

[@SourStephen3]

Yes, I am trans. My friends gave me my name

[@harlwariaprivate9884]

As a trans woman, I have a love hate relationship with the word transsexual. because for 1 I like what it kinda stands for because I am female and not a woman who is male if that makes sense like I always say trans female but if you actually brake it down it says trans and sexual witch makes it sound like a sexuality. With is also why the saying “sex and gender are different” is a bit annoying to me because yes it’s factual 100% but to people who don’t understand it implies that I’m not female in witch I am. So for me I usually just say trans because it gets rid of that confusion for people who don’t understand.

[@achillescomeout]

Yea, am trans

[@blackicemoon95]

Yes I am trans! 😊

[@ashrichfield7135]

the history of trans people goes back to the oldest civilization we have records of

[@catStone92]

so transvesti is still used in south america and while it's mostly considered to overlap with tran women, I've also seen it referred to as a separate gender identity on the non-binary spectrum, so...

[@lyssvanessen7273]

Yes I am a trans

[@mimilesles]

Yes I'm trans

[@BeaFH]

I do happen to be a transgender

[@ivo8312]

well now i am scared

[@SaturnEtter-lx1vz]

31:53 🫠😭😭😭💚

[@bIond22]

why is the blond dudes hair floating like that

[@ichsehnursoaus]

let me take a wild guess and say "product, maybe?"

[@romamir]

yes I am trans

[@jeremyallen5974]

It's closer to 'thintelligence' than actual science

[@NoahPhenixCraig-hm5py]

Yes💅

[@cedrik164]

That I am

[@CoolestSwordFighter]

ywnbaw + 52%

[@koalaskrypin]

Yes, I am trans. 🏳‍⚧

[@kittyinacloud8101]

Wow i have never been so angry about a historical event before. Idk why but i am fuming

[@adamalkhawaja2003]

YES, ftm!

[@akatheloser13yearsof1D]

5:31 excuse me? richard hammond? really?

[@paulhammond6978]

He is weird. But I do also have a cousin whose name is Richard Hammond.

[@CrossoverKid92]

No, not Trans, but I'm very supportive 😊

[@martindrew3513]

I wonder if it might not be a nice thing to have a year-end digest of your videos' stronger points. Sort of manually diminish some of the gibbering.

[@SciGuys]

We make a best of episode every year... (Also the "gibbering" is the core conceit of the pod)

[@HaShomeret]

I'm gender fluid and intersex so, not cis but dont know if trans either. Vote on if I am trans or not in the replies!

[@yohanrives3752]

I do think the t slur is really cute, but probably because english is not my native language.

[@mirroredhour]

I literally just got right now that noah's username is a wordplay on no offense 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@PaulaStueckendamm]

Wissenschaft, witchcraft... tomato, potato

[@yohanrives3752]

Same etymology i guess

[@Ky_The_Weird]

I am trans.

[@rumpelstilzchen4202]

@@ghostlybird327 YDWNCB

[@ichsehnursoaus]

the german language does not make a difference between gender and sex, both is called "Geschlecht", and it is not easy to pull somebody out of this thinking if they never thought about it, lemme tell ya. theoretically we know one can dress however, shave, style, but a gendertypical appearance is very engrained in a lot of german minds.

[@Nutellapanzer]

me trans

[@CDKohmy]

I'm non-binary

[@mackthompson616]

43 minutes in before i realized i already listened to this episode before oops i was like “oh i already knew all this i feel so smart” no duh doofus it’s because you’ve already watched this

[@ichsehnursoaus]

that's how you knew all this, haha

[@LOVE263]

Yarp

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

Being trans isn't a choice, but if it were, I'd be transer. Wait, is that even a word?

[@ashleigh.]

"The t slur was so close to being a cute nickname" actually we mostly saved one from the transphobes: "tranner"!

[@tinklostboy]

wissenschaft = witchcraft ah here we go back to the medieval times 😂

[@eriszuny]

Hi, I'm a human person

[@ichsehnursoaus]

that's nice :) nice to meet you, fellow human person :D

[@marcielynn4886]

Post op before you were all born.

[@robbiemontgomery581]

Why don't you do a podcast about John Money? The man who coined the term 'gender identity'. Have a look at how his theory on gender was proven to be totally flawed and what he did to David Reimer and his brother...

[@leekestner1554]

Eugenics is a hard subject. Where do you draw the line? One persons idea of where the line should be is much different than another's. We are one generation from being able to eradicate Huntington's disease. We know how to do gene therapy so no child is ever born with it again. I think most of us can agree that that is a good use of eugenics. But how about Down's Syndrome children? Many adult DS people spoke to the American Congress asking that they not sign off on destroying fetuses that carry it. Personally, I think that taking out genes that cause chronic illness or death is not a bad thing. Going any farther than that and you are on thin ice.

[@astriferous9193]

“Nothing about us without us” is the key here, as with so many other things. There is no categorical yes or no answer. Plus, in many cases we don’t fully understand what we’re attempting to change. A disease in one context can be an advantage in another. Look at sickle cell as one example, or the hunter vs farmer theory of ADHD. Not always the case, but *we don’t know* how much we don’t know. We could end up eradicating a trait that would save our species in the future just because the combination of that gene and a modern circumstance (eg a common food additive) has an undesirable result. I think it’s natural to want to prevent suffering, but in this instance there are so many ways to accidentally create more suffering instead.

[@leekestner1554]

@@astriferous9193 Agreed it is a minefield. I knew that about sickle cell providing protection against the tetse fly and the sleeping sickness it carried. I haven't heard the ADHD theory of the farmer vs. hunter. Being ADHD myself I will have to look that up. Thanks.

[@johnlondonbimeetup7961]

@@astriferous9193 Yes! Killing babies to reduce suffering later on kinda sounds odd anyway, cos you don't just remove the suffering, you remove all the rest of their life too - and who knows what medical advances will be made through their life that ameliorates their problems. Plus... Consent, people! Stop enforcing choices on people's bodies - on people having babies, by the government (yeah, Roe v Wade is relevant here, a bit).

[@halt9072]

JI've just begun listening to this episode, I confirm : Nice is not nice, it's full of right wing bigots and is known for it

[@Madmaxbv]

It must be hard knowing you’ll never be the sex you want to be

[@IvanSN]

Gender and sexuality are not immutable. It's all constructed. People change throughout their lives and that's incredibly based. The medicalization of identity is not actually that helpful!

[@bellahoyle6565]

Yeahhh, the US still bans books 🥲also. I go by she/they. Does that count as trans?? I am still trying to figure myself out 😅

[@rumpelstilzchen4202]

If you were assigned male at birth(essentially born in a male body), but identify as a woman (or the other way around), then you are transgender. Otherwise you could be non-binary or genderfluid, which both fall adjacent to or under the trans umbrella but might warrant a different, more specific label.

[@lowang8831]

​@@rumpelstilzchen4202the mind virus spreads