The Sins of Martin Luther - Chris Rosebrough

Chris Rosebrough offers more context into the sins of Martin Luther, in light of Dr. Michael Brown's presentation in the roundtable discussion with Justin Peters and Jim Osman.
Michael Brown, Martin Luther, and Manipulation:
www.americangospelfilm.com/ag...
Watch the Roundtable:
• Roundtable: Brown & St...

[@answeringadventism]

Pretty wild how many are ignoring that Chris started by stating Luther’s sin is not excused. Brown brought this up to try and equate Benny Hinn to Luther to say they have to both be false teachers. Peter’s and Osman were using this term to refer to teaching doctrine contrary to orthodoxy. Not just that Benny Hinn said reprehensible things. They were using the term to refer to the unorthodox teachings of the man which is why appealing to Luther’s abhorrent statements regarding the Jews is an apples and oranges. Recognizing this doesn’t mean you excuse Luther’s sinful words.

[@beaberean3286]

But the difference is that Luther taught these reprehensible things multiple times, seemingly Without repentance. Benny Hinn spoke on the 9 member godhead one time and never again. Some say he retracted, some say he repented, but either way it's not an ongoing false teaching he is pedaling.... Again, I still agree Hinn is a false teacher because of other teachings of his, but I cannot unilaterally say he is unsaved based on that comment from 20 years ago. In the same way, I do think there were points in Luther's life and even Calvin's life where they too went beyond scripture and could be considered false teachers, but not that they were unsaved. Why can't we be fair here? I think the issue is that cessationists are asking more of the continuationists than they are asking of their own. For example - you give a pass to MacArthur for saying the mark of the beast can be repented of, and that the blood of Jesus is not valuable in our salvation....but what do we hear?? Crickets. Everyone still thinks he is a solid faithful preacher

[@familymatters9018]

Sinful words 🤣 truth is not sinful

[@sweezy_inman]

Completely disagree. This is as apples and apples as it gets - you can know it by the similarities in both of their defenses. Planks are surely buried in eyes here.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@sweezy_inman Luther, who lived at the end of the middles ages, at a time when there was no separation between church and state, in an age of extreme violence, asking the government to take action to defend Christians, something he did multiple times in his life, is evil? But Benny Hinn teaching a false God, and a false gospel, while robbing people in the name of Christ, is okay? You people can't be taken seriously.

[@hk4lyfe59]

Yeah, its so clear that there is a double standard for Luther that is not given to Benny Hinn. That's why I don't trust people like Peters. Dude clearly is not ministering from a place of intellectual honesty and integrity.

[@JayneMoore-vq6sr]

Thank you Chris for this very valuable program. I watched the Roundtable last night and was shocked to hear what Luther said in his later years. Clarification much needed. Thanks

[@davidgaston6859]

I'm shocked at Michael Brown unwilling to look at obvious evidence of continuing heresy that's unrepented and can't call out very obvious heritcs that live today. He's the bridge the wolves walk over to infiltrate the sheep. I think he's a bridge that needs taken down.

[@JuliexSteadman]

@@davidgaston6859 yes i dont understand him... but i thought he made a good point. I reckon Luther & hinn will be in hell !! unless they truly repented.. Luther had the anabaptists put to death in horrendous way - they were truly christians !! If he was a product of his time then the pharisees of Jesus time have even more excuse but Jesus said your father is a murderer and a liar, he made no such exceptions...

[@JR01015]

Giving this “contextual excuse” for Luther behaviour is absolute nonsense. By this logic we can say slave owners who professed Christianity during the trans Atlantic slave were perfectly fine.

[@Outrider74]

I want to throw in some things to this video (which is very good btw) 1.) As Pastor Chris said, Luther's issue with the Jews was THEOLOGICAL, not ethnic. Luther had no problem with anybody who was ethnically Jewish by simple nature of ethnicity, and in that same tract (On the Jews and their Lies) he makes a passing commendation of Jews who converted to Christianity. 2.) Luther did not wake up one morning and decide to write this tract out of the blue. He had already spent years by this time trying to convert Jewish people in Germany, and doing so enthusiastically. The Jewish leaders, in return, did not like it, and according to biographer Roland Bainton, it is implied that they may have actively tried to have Luther eliminated, or at the very least were not opposed to Rome's elimination of him. 3.) Luther had rhetoric of a far worse nature toward the Anabaptists, and his rhetoric directed toward Rome wasn't much nicer at times, so this wasn't something specifically saved for Judaism. In fact, an interview with Jewish historians brought out the conclusion that rhetoric like this among opposing religious figures was most likely the norm of the day. A good example of this is, incidentally, in the Jewish Talmud, which contains VERY blasphemous statements about Jesus Christ. 4.) There is nothing inherently different between conversion to Judaism and conversion to any other false religion. This was a problem faced in Germany; Germans were leaving the Christian faith to convert to Judaism, and this was part of Luther's motivation for his tract. The Judaism of the post-Old Testament era is NOT the Old Testament Yahweh worship established by God Himself. There is fundamentally no difference between a Christian converting to Judaism vs. converting to Islam, or Ba'Hai, or Hinduism, insofar as Judaism denies 1.) the identity of Jesus Christ and 2.) supplants the Old Testament in many ways. 5.) The peasants' revolt was, also according to Roland Bainton, a tempest that had been brewing for the better part of a century prior to Luther's arrival. While Luther may not have acted entirely judiciously in that situation, he can hardly be blamed for its occurrence. It was basically going to happen no matter what; Luther just happened to be part of the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. 6.) Dr. Michael Brown seems to be missing the whole point with his deflection about Luther: Pastor Chris, and MANY others before him, have already addressed Luther on these points and others (and to be honest, Luther's behavior concerning a marriage of a certain nobleman during his time was more disconcerting than the other things mentioned above). Dr. Brown, however, has not, to my knowledge, EVER addressed Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, William Branham, Bill Johnson, Paul Cain, Todd White, Jonathan Cahn, and others. Only after Todd Bentley and Mike Bickel got caught in their sin did Brown speak up; never during their false prophecies or sham "miracles," and he still won't call into question their lack of miraculous evidences. If Dr. Brown wants Lutherans (and Calvinists as well, for the fun of it) to "air out their dirty laundry," he needs to set the example for it himself first.

[@lilacDaisy111]

I read your whole post, hoping it would help, but no matter who violence and robbery is called against, in order to try and convert them, it's wicked. It's Islamic's tactics. Those people who believe all the fundamentals of the faith and then go and hold up signs saying "God hates f&*s*, and they call for the capital punishment of fornicators - are they not false teachers, due to their love of violence. I dunno, I'm really torn here. How could Luther despise Jesus' humble and kind nature to such an extent.

[@Outrider74]

@@lilacDaisy111 Yeah... that's not even close to what Luther did.

[@lilacDaisy111]

@@Outrider74 He said to burn down their houses, make them do hard labour and give their money to Jewish Christians. He said a lot more. Today is the first time I've read it, and I'm shocked.

[@markkozlowski3674]

You are flatly incorrect. Luther called for the killing of Jews who would not convert to Christianity.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

​@lilacDaisy111 why are you shocked? Luther's ideas and writings were common for his day. Just like all the Christian theologians who owned slaves.

[@james4692]

What I dont understand is Brown's logic in defending Benny Hinn and subsequently saying that Martin Luther was not a Christian. It seems that he is being unapologetically biased. All I know is that "we we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10 NKJV) We will be at the mercy of God where no on will have to answer for any sins but their own.......

[@hk4lyfe59]

Idk if Brown actually thinks that Martin Luther isn't saved. Either way, he's frustrated with this for two reasons: 1) Brown is Jewish, so of course Luther's words are going to be taken personally, especially given the history of horrors that Jews have suffered. 2) Rosebrough's integrity needs to be called into question. If he's building an entire online ministry off of labeling Charismatics false prophets for the their failures but then immediately jumps to defending luther as a "goldy man with flaws" after luther advocated for the murder of Jews simply for not receiving the gospel then its clear that Rosebrough alternarive motives for why he targets the people he does.

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@hk4lyfe59I don't think any unrepentant murderer is saved. That includes Luther unless you can point me to a historical account that demonstrates Luther confessing his crusade of slaughter as sin

[@lazaruscomeforth7646]

As an historical observation, in the 16th Century they still had blasphemy laws, and rabbis both practiced and taught that Jewish people ought to daily and ritually blaspheme Christ, who is God. The sanction for unrepentant, persistent, and intentional blasphemy was the death penalty. It had nothing to do with race. The Torah itself prescribes the death penalty for blasphemy. The idea of the death penalty for blasphemy is historical and Scriptural.

[@hopedealer2226]

However, as we all know, just because something was historically practiced or taught does not make it right before God or justify our inaccurate and wrong beliefs. Also, you are partly correct in terms of Scripture and the death penalty for blasphemy. Under the old covenant teachings, yes. New Testament scriptures, no, it is clearly laid out and demonstrated. We are without excuse on these matters. And to believe the New Testament writings would give place to and justify the killing for blasphemy is unfathomable. May God help us and have mercy upon us🙏🏻

[@lazaruscomeforth7646]

@@hopedealer2226 - The historic death penalty for blasphemy was basically the king's job, not the Church's. That fact sidesteps the ecclesiological critique. Calling for the king to end blasphemy in his kingdom was lawful and just, for the king did not wield the sword in vain, for he was called to be an enemy to wicked works, of which blasphemy was Biblically defined as a major crime. The Jewish blasphemy of Christ was no accident, and was intentionally malicious. Our godless secular Western countries simply cannot fathom that allowing blasphemy is wrong.

[@hopedealer2226]

@@lazaruscomeforth7646 I understand that point completely. However, as God’s people under the new covenant there is no place to agree with or give consent to capital punishment for blasphemy. Therefore, Martin Luther, being a minister of the gospel, is held accountable for those views and actions.

[@lazaruscomeforth7646]

@@hopedealer2226- That opinion is not universal in Christian history, so any outrage at what was considered normal civic law by most Christians throughout Western and Eastern church history is unfounded.

[@lazaruscomeforth7646]

@@hopedealer2226 - Considered a Saint East and West, Justinian's law code is still the basis of many modern legal systems... The Emperor Justinian to the People of Constantinople. PREFACE. We think that it is clear to all men of good judgment that Our principal solicitude and prayer is, that those who have been entrusted to Us by God may live properly, and obtain Divine favor. And as God does not desire the perdition of men, but their conversion and salvation, and as He receives those who, having committed sin, have repented, We invite all Our subjects to fear God and invoke His clemency, for We know that all those who love the Lord and are deserving of His pity do this. CHAPTER I. Therefore, as certain persons, instigated by the devil, devote themselves to the most reprehensible vices, and commit crimes contrary to nature, We hereby enjoin them to fear God and the judgment to come, to avoid diabolical and illicit sensuality of this kind; in order that, through such acts, they may not incur the just anger of God, and bring about the destruction of cities along with their inhabitants; for We learn from the Holy Scriptures that both cities as well as men have perished because of wicked acts of this kind. (1) And as, in addition to those who commit these offences which We have mentioned, there are others who utter blasphemous words, and swear by the sacraments of God, and provoke Him to anger, We enjoin them to abstain from these and other impious speeches, and not swear by the head of God, or use other language of this kind. For if blasphemy when uttered against men is not left unpunished, there is much more reason that those who blaspheme God himself should be deserving of chastisement. Therefore We order all men to avoid such offences, to have the fear of God in their hearts, and to imitate the example of those who live in piety; for as crimes of this description cause famine, earthquake, and pestilence, it is on this account, and in order that men may not lose their souls, that We admonish them to abstain from the perpetration of the illegal acts above mentioned. But if, after Our warning has been given, anyone should continue to commit these offences, he will in the first place render himself unworthy of the mercy of God, and will afterwards be subjected to the penalties imposed by the laws. (2) We order the Most Glorious Prefect of this Royal City to arrest any persons who persist in committing the aforesaid crimes, after the publication of Our warning; in order that this city and the State may not be injured by the contempt of such persons and their impious acts, and inflict upon them the punishment of death. If, after the publication of this law, any magistrates should become aware of such offences, and not take measures to punish them, they shall be condemned by God. And even if the Most Glorious Prefect himself should find any persons doing anything of this kind, and not punish them in accordance with Our laws, he will, in the first place, be subjected to the judgment of God, and afterwards sustain the weight of Our indignation.

[@TheRealKenF]

I think people need to stop holding men in such high regards. Like supporting Benny Hinn, or supporting Martin Luther. People so quickly jump on to defend a man (Todd white, bill johnson, marring Luther, John Calvin, etc) but what we really SHOULD be defending is TRUTH. Man is fallible, but Gods word isn’t.

[@MinLeeMajors]

Facts...people out here banging their denomination like it's a gang...I'm Christian

[@RestoringYourVoice]

Really great point!

[@pfwindham]

Please do not put in the same category. Martin Luther John Calvin -true men that are believers-with Todd, White and Bill Johnson, who are rank heretics.!!!

[@JuliexSteadman]

..yes but people need to be called out to help those who are caught up with them...

[@MinLeeMajors]

That's why I don't identify with any man. I'm Reformed in my soteriololgy but I don't call myself Calvinist or Lutheran or anything. I'm CHRISTIAN...too many people end up defending a man instead of defending the FAITH. TOO many of us are separated by a man's name instead of being United in CHRIST. If we are united on the essentials of the faith, then let's stop acting like gangs and let's be CHRISTIAN.

[@JuliexSteadman]

..not calling yourself anything is not going to help you.. ..you would have been influenced by teachers along the way, knowingly or unknowingly; Calvin and Luther had such an influence on the west.. Its only if you have read your bible for yourself with no commentary will you be clear of these teachers - that is highly unlikely...

[@rh10033]

Amen!!

[@captainfordo1]

Lutherans don’t follow Luther, and neither do Calvinists follow Calvin.

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@captainfordo1 Maybe they should change their names. If I discovered that the founder of my Church were a spree killer I would do all I could to distance myself from him. Instead the modern followers of Calvin and Luther hide their crimes or grossly understate them. Sometimes they claim that the slaughter occurred such a long time ago that it has passed the expiration date.

[@somemedic8482]

@@JuliexSteadman being influenced by a teacher and naming a whole denomination after someone are not the same thing

[@jackcarraway4707]

"To find out who rules over you, look at who you can't criticize." -Voltaire

[@markkozlowski3674]

That is not a quote from Voltaire. It is a quote from Kevin Alfred Strom, an American Neo-Nazi, who said it in 1993. Proud of yourself?

[@jackcarraway4707]

@@markkozlowski3674 It is still true!

[@markkozlowski3674]

@@jackcarraway4707 Well, I at least hope you will no longer slander Voltaire by using him in the service of your mission to spread hate.

[@jackcarraway4707]

@@markkozlowski3674 Read their Talmud. They hate Christians. It is the Church's duty to resist against these goblins.

[@carymiller5502]

@@jackcarraway4707 Do not buy into the lie of-> @markkozlowski3674 The Jew!

[@LEGASItv]

The logic of why Brown bought this up is that the standard Peter/Osman puts on others (which 4 of them agreed) must be applied to Luther or anyone else. That's THE point.

[@arende15]

That is nothing more than presentism.

[@beaberean3286]

@@arende15 no, that is nothing more than fair judgement. You can't claim Benny Hinn is unsaved because of his erroneous conduct and teaching, and then be SURE Luther is saved DESPITE this erroneous conduct and teaching. I'm in no way advocating a free grace gospel either.

[@Allen-L-Canada]

agree, i don't think Brown considers Luther as a false teacher

[@kennethelledge3522]

The problem is Dr. Brown's logic does not hold up to scrutiny. His point was fallacious. This video demonstrates several reasons why that is true. Others could also be given.

[@willieneon1]

@@arende15presntism would be to use modern standard and apply it to the past. Biblical standard should be applicable to any time period. The things that Luther said and promoted against the Jews and the peasants were reprehensible from a biblical standpoint, regardless of the time.

[@AC-iy1ef]

Thank you so much for all the great work guys!!! So grateful !!

[@carryingcrosses428]

After the round table discussion, I really wanted to hear something from someone solid about it. Thanks brother.

[@debbie_LJ]

Thank you so much for this! I was appalled at many of his "Well, if you say this, what about this." comparing apples and oranges. I'm glad at a minimum that my discernment is improving💗🙏🕊

[@superelite3122]

Hmm it is very sad seeing so many people wanting to not look at things objectively about the life of Luther. He is truly a sinner like all of us and has done many sins that has definitely crossed lines, intentionally or not. No one has ever put Luther as our leader or made him our pope. We know his sins and that he is not infallible. We do not have to agree or condone with anything he says or has done that isn't in our confessions, which namely are only three documents. People are so quick to point out others sins when it suits them and never look back on themselves to see if they really are holding up better (answer: no one is). I wont ever say what everything Luther did was okay or justifiable. But, though people apparently hate this word now, context really does matter. And anyone who says its a cop-out needs to get a reality check because the times really do change and what people view as acceptable and wrong differ in the ages. Its in no way a defense of it, but an explanation and reason that is understandable at the given time of when he lived. People need to stop conflating a reason as an excuse. I can say both that I understand what Luther meant and why he said certain things and that he was still wrong to say it. Luther was a sinner through and through like me and like everyone else who walked the earth. But he knew the forgiveness of Jesus Christ. He believed and trusted in that to be saved and not on his sanctification or works. So many people want to point out those bad things that he has done and base his salvation off of sins which are already forgiven. Because if people think that Luther couldnt be forgiven for his sins, what makes anyone think that their sins are forgiven then? Trust in Jesus Christ who suffered, died and was raised for our salvation and believe in the promise. Honestly the past year I have became a Lutheran has been the most joyous time of my life. Deeply learning theology and watching sermons day in and day out. And truly understanding the biblical texts and how it is all about Jesus Christ and God's forgiveness for us poor sinners. Every sermon starting with an absolution and then hearing God's Word every Sunday without fail, and getting taught true repentance. I do not understand at all why Lutherans get so much hate. I hear the arguments but its so lacking to the beauty of proper biblical understanding, actually reading multiple passages of scripture in context, hearing that my sins are fogriven, that we truly eat and drink the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, traditional hymns, so much Christian symbolism inside the building itself. And of course always getting to hear what our Lord and God, Jesus Christ did on the cross for me.... a poor miserable sinner. Who still struggles daily so much but I just lean in closer to what God has said about my sins. That He'll blot out every transgression and cast my sins as far as east is from the west. We are covered in the blood of the Lamb, and no other can save us. And if someone like me can be saved, then Im sure Luther and many many Christians who call upon the name of the Lord will be too. I do apologize for rambling on but I cannot stand for the longest time people bashing on things they dont properly know nor care to find out the truth. To all my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, I pray that we remain strong in our faith and convictions, to hold to what is true and not compromise Christ's teachings. In Jesus name, amen.

[@lootbird]

You don’t ever feel like maybe we still don’t have proper revelation or understanding of the gospel? Me thinks this is the problem. Look at our world. Fruit is telling handing people a pamphlet, not helping them get through life. It’s disgusting what Christians have become and they have no fruit accept for works that look obvious

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@lootbird I don't know what church you go to, but if that is what you see, you should leave.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

Catholics hate us because we are Protestants, and other Protestants hate us because we are too Catholic. But they don't know what they are missing. I've been to many types of churches. Nothing beats a Lutheran liturgical service.

[@JoshDub78]

The problem isn't Luther's sin...it's that the Reformed guys are being hypocritical when they call out Charismatics for their sins and say they are not saved because of their false teachings and behavior, but, won't hold Luther to that same standard. To the credit of Peters and Jim, in that round table where this subject originated, they both said Luther should be held to the same standard and not practice ministry. And visa versa, Michael and Sam said that Benny Hinn and Copeland should shut down their ministries because of their own false teachings and behavior. I applaud both sides for being intellectually honest. If you hold Christians with whom you differ to one standard, but give a pass to the Christians you agree with, for doing the exact same thing and possibly worse, you're doing it wrong. You're allowing your own biases cloud your moral duty to be honest.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@@JoshDub78 what did Luther teach that was false? Was he claiming to heal people to steal their money? Was he denying the Trinity?

[@greengateacreshomestead4324]

Thank you for clearing some waters in the matter.

[@nathanielhundley7997]

I do not know if anyone will read this comment but I think it should be stated. A lot of people are talking about sin and throwing condemnation around. We have to look at the law and remember that we sin as well. Daily we need forgiveness for our transgressions and to walk in him. I have seen some comments about practicing sin or being okay with sinning (like in 1 John 3 or Romans 6). Giving grace to sin does not mean that we are practicing.

[@kennethreyman3707]

I can’t believe how people are so attached to man that they tried to figure out how to make what man acceptable. If Luther was a follower of God‘s word, he would’ve never had those thoughts if the Holy Spirit was dwelling within him

[@ryangallmeier6647]

Excellent post and commentary by my brother, Chris Rosebrough. Church History still matters! My brother, Martin Luther, was NOT an infallible man; he was just as much a man of his age as we are of ours. He was right to write a Theological Treatise against the religious Jews of his day. The enmeshment of Church and State was a very real thing in Luther's time. *Soli Deo Gloria*

[@JuliexSteadman]

..no he wasnt. If he was then that excuses the pharisees of Jesus day... God reveals the truth to those who do what is right and hides it from those who dont... 2 Thess 2:11-12; Luther had the anabaptists put to death in horrendous way, they were christians... How was the love of God in his heart and how is he qualified to even start interpreting scripture for us... Go back to the early church fathers (ad70-300), they did not teach saved by faith alone... kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4W2dptnpJ17mqcsi=lboXMvWLesD3UGAE

[@JimiSurvivor]

How do you explain Luthers own enmeshment with the state to the point of killing on its behalf

[@ryangallmeier6647]

That's exactly why I said, "the enmeshment of Church and State was a very real thing in Luther's time." Meaning, he was just as much a product of his time as anyone before or after him. They didn't recognize any distinction between Church and States, because there was none in Luther's time; or Calvin's for that matter. Only in the Founding of the USA did this become an important issue. That's the "Christ-like principle" on which the USA was founded (cf. Rev. 13:11-17, and the "lamb-like" Beast that rises up out of the earth). Hope that helps. Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria* @@JimiSurvivor

[@KatAmanti]

Maybe Luther said those things because the Talmud and Kabbalah says blasphemous evil things about Jesus!

[@JimiSurvivor]

Why did he kill the Anabaptists who said nothing bad about Jesus?

[@polycube868]

Anything that goes against Christ is automatically of the Devil!

[@claudde3470]

Luther was the first ‘man’ to build a Christian church and thanks to him, we now have over 50,000 denominations.

[@TheLaughingLibrarianBookLife]

Thank you!!

[@cateclism316]

One of my favorite parts of the Small Catechism is the part dealing with private confession. Luther instructs us to plead guilty to ALL sins. We know that we're covered that way.

[@leenieledejo6849]

"Covered"???? Have you read chapter 3 of John's first epistle or do you think it should be ignored (along with Romans 6 & John 8:34-36)???

[@yellowblackbird9000]

​@@leenieledejo6849You don't even know anything about Lutheranism.

[@lauriecollins7312]

And Luther was born raised Roman Catholic Monk Scholar-AGAIN- Context of history and your regurgitation of small catechism is his background. “ TABLE TALK was a book of Luthers teachings further down life and in more studies of the Scriptures. It was a death sentence as well to be caught with this book as well as a Bible by the Pope.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@@lauriecollins7312 Table talk is a book of nonsense full of unverifiable quotes allegedly recorded by others. Why don't you stick to things we know Luther actually wrote and believed?

[@leenieledejo6849]

​@@yellowblackbird9000 I'm learning that it's not Christianity. But "you do you". I'm sure God's fine with people twisting Scripture and defending sin 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@maketcher1974]

Luther had feet of clay. He’s still one of my heroes.

[@larrybateman1738]

Feet? The things he said suggest that the clay went all the way up to Luther's hairline

[@JuliexSteadman]

@@larrybateman1738 LOL !! Yes !! there is so much wrong with Luther, he even believed that the OT law still stood in terms of putting people to death for idolatory... the copius notes he wrote all over his geneva bible helped people believe this as they went to the new world (america) and helped justify putting the red indians to death for idolatory... thats from David Bercot - Will the theologians please sit down... ..not to mention his putting to death the annabaptists - its always the christains wo are put to death...

[@JimiSurvivor]

"Feet of clay" refers to a weakness or character flaw. I think persecuting and murdering other believers (the Anabaptists) is much more than a mere "character flaw." After all they had not committed an insurrection against the State because they were Pacifists. One of the things Luther disliked intensely was their practice of ordaining ministers without consulting HIM. Even more hateful to him was the fact that they baptized ADULTS unto REPENTANCE rather than infants for which he branded them HERETICS. Luther himself followed the Catholic practice of sprinkling/pouring water over infants. He believed this was a soul-changing experience. If true, it negate Luther's own idea of Sola Fidei (by faith alone) since infants can neither understand nor believe the gospel. Once he had gained the power, Luther became like the Catholics who had sought to kill him earlier in his life.

[@biblicalecclesia]

so thankful for this clarification thank you, brothers

[@carolberubee]

Fantastic, Chris. Historical context is important. The other thing I would note is that Luther had the true Gospel and the true God, whereas many of the Charismatics to whom Jim and Justin referred do not have the true Gospel and/or the true God. We start with their theology, take note that they are false, and then see the fruit in their lives as additional evidence of their false profession. I think Michael and Sam were failing to make that distinction, thinking that Jim and Justin were calling people false based solely on wacky and/or immoral behavior.

[@markkozlowski3674]

What "historical context" excuses Luther's call for the killing of Jews?

[@ab-gail]

💯

[@ab-gail]

@@markkozlowski3674 Why aren’t we more concerned about what Benny Hinn is doing to the Body instead of a book next to no one has even read? (Yes I know I didn’t answer your question. I want the more pertinent answer.)

[@markkozlowski3674]

@@ab-gail Because two thousand years of unrelenting, murderous, and ultimately genocidal Christian hatred of Jews is a grotesque sin which must never be excused or downplayed.

[@markkozlowski3674]

@@ab-gail Because the Holocaust was undertaken by professing Christians.

[@Maxandshe]

Hi Chris, I was wondering, after belonging to many different denominations, according to your testimony, why you chose to become Lutheran?? Was it just a safer choice??

[@Outrider74]

I'm obviously not Chris, but I basically took the same path: started out Independent Fundamentalist Baptist; jumped to the Assemblies of God/charismaticism; then to Wesleyanism; then to Calvinism, and I've finally come to Lutheranism. My reasoning was that I looked at the Scriptures, then looked at the Book of Concord, and I found the greatest agreement.

[@nattybumppo4151]

@@Outrider74Why not just go with the scriptures themselves?

[@lootbird]

Why are you all tied to a book made by mere men! You think god was in control when Constantine determined what was in the book and how it should be translated? It’s silly. Christ died for all. We’re all sinners. Gods will is that none should be lost and his will will be done. We all knew him before we were born into this awful world and we will all know him once again, when we discard are earthly vessels. Haha let’s gooooo

[@Golden_writes550]

It was the first Protest, Makes sense.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@@lootbird Constantine didn't decide what was in the Bible lol

[@glynnetolar4423]

We humans pick strange heroes.

[@BeefyPreacher]

Humans pick human heroes which are all flawed.

[@bettycarmella1127]

Indeed

[@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023]

God chose Luther, not man🙄

[@RestoringYourVoice]

​@@jesuschristiskingofkingslo2023and Luther chose to hate people.

[@williammarinelli2363]

...especially when the historical narrative is written by winners. Concerning the reformation in England, why is Queen Mary I called "Bloody Mary?" Because she had opponents killed. Yet prior to and after her, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I did what? Part of the narrative of the gatekeepers is "Protestant good, Catholic bad." Yet it as Catholicism, the Pope, and Thomas More that contended with Fat Henry that he shouldn't be trading his wife for a newer model - baboom - the Anglican Church is created.

[@jessieallen6909]

Thanks

[@GR-dk5ju]

1:50 "Was" a member of the LCMS? What happened? What denomination is Chris Rosebrough now?

[@Fighting4theFaith]

I took a call to be a pastor in the AALC. We are in full altar and pulpit fellowship with the LCMS

[@Reformed1]

@@Fighting4theFaith Why did Luther want baptists punished severely unto death for not baptizing infants and unsaved children? I heard James White mention this and it shocked me.

[@allenvermeulen8018]

Thanks brother I understand now in context what went on

[@lilacDaisy111]

You deleted my comment where I quoted Luther (it must be too repugnant to read). I genuinely am confused how he could be so hateful and filled with the Spirit of Grace. Especially at the end of sanctification. This has thrown me for such a loop. *You know, oh, man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to *do justice, love kindness,* and *walk humbly* with your God.* Luther broke all three. Did he disqualify himself, I wonder.

[@ab-gail]

1)KZbin deletes comments on its own. 2) I doubt any of us do all three all the time at any point in our lives. I guess none of us are saved in that case. The man who wrote amazing grace ran slave ships for years after he converted. He did stop ofc but I bring this up because God can release us of such evil. I don’t see why he couldn’t for Luther or why suddenly this matters more than Benny Hinn conning the the poor, widowed and needy.

[@user-zq3jn3xk6x]

Hello brother or sister. You are right. Luther was vile sick human being. They just don't admit it. He is satanic who created a doctrine faith alone. He just do not want to do the job. Just believe and if you kill thousands aday, it doesn't matter as long as you believe. This is his doctrine. Bless you.

[@JimiSurvivor]

Luther was not filled with grace later in his life not after he let his prejudice grow into hate and then into murder. This is a very simple principle, clearly stated.The Bible says: "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that ETERNAL LIFE does NOT RESIDE in a MURDERER." (1 John 3:15) Could the Jews be classified as Luther's "brothers?" or at least his "neighbors"? Jesus was asked that same question: 29 But wanting to JUSTIFY HIMSELF he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor? (Luke 10:29) Then Jesus told the story of the good SAMARITAN (most of whom hated the Jews). At the conclusion of the parable Jesus asked the man: 36 Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 “The one who showed him mercy,” replied the expert in the law. Then Jesus told him, “GO AND DO LIKEWISE” Instead, Luther killed and robbed the Jews.

[@mmtas1995]

Thank you so much for clarifying! We are reminded we are not to put any man on a pedestal/throne. Luther himself wouldn’t want to be idolized. We only follow leaders as they follow the biblical Christ and related doctrines.

[@jonycruz2430]

Ppl put him on a pedestal when they call themselves after martins last name. Almost like ppl in a cult would

[@MichaelSeethaler]

Thanks for this video; it seemed clear immediately when Brown rapid fire read those quotes that more context was needed. Not that it would excuse any sin, but context is what is required for honesty.

[@markkozlowski3674]

What context excuses rabid hatred?

[@JuliexSteadman]

..the context that was given by Chris Rosebrough was not completely honest because he ignored the anabaptists.. they were put to death horrendously without trial, they believed in the trinity, they were christians... How can Luther have been saved, how did he have the love of God in his heart.. even his theology differs from the early church fathers (ad70-300) who did not teach saved by faith alone (mental ascent)...

[@MoStBlEsSeD]

I mean I don't think one church person in history has been without sin .. doesn't mean they didn't contribute to the gospel .. men are flawed but GOD still uses us

[@jerardosc9534]

Thats the point Michael Brown wanted to make in regards to charismatics

[@MoStBlEsSeD]

@jerardosc9534 I am a cessationist but I think there is a huge difference between Benny hin charismatic and the rest ... GOD can do all things but I don't believe he has anointed anyone like the apostles .. mainly because 99% of these anointed ones are fake .. but yes of course charismatic have done great things .. I honestly think generalizations are to blame for cessationist/ charismatic.. we should all agree word of faith and prosperity is not biblical

[@nattybumppo4151]

I’m really tired of this argument as to why we should accept or venerate men like Martin Luther.

[@MoStBlEsSeD]

@nattybumppo4151 well I for one am thankful for someone like Luther because catholics are not Christian AT ALL .. so whether he is a good man or not doesn't really matter not one of the apostles was a good man either

[@nattybumppo4151]

@@MoStBlEsSeD They discipled after Jesus. Martin Luther actively taught against the behavior Jesus taught his disciples.

[@Orangeokie7]

With all respect, this is what happens when we put our faith in mere men. We start trying to defend them even when we know we shouldn't. The same problem is on the Calvinist side and any other denomination that get their theology from man. Our focus should soley be on God's word and our faith should be in the only sinless and perfect man that walked this earth, Jesus Christ.

[@StacyHartChristianMusic]

Exactly!!!😊

[@danielmiller1812]

Dear bro Chris can you tell your take according to GD word the difference between water baptism & the baptism of the holy ghost as Lord and Savior said to tarry in Jerusalem for the gift to be poured out, tks sincerely.

[@bgail20]

Regardless of those who hate us we are asked to love them. Luther had no excuse he had scripture. He was responsible for putting to death those who were against Christ. And we have no idea if he repented of that. So we all should abstain from thinking of Luther in heaven or not. These sins are a big deal and no all sin is not the same sin

[@energizer7354]

I want to know if everyone at the table knew that was gonna be a topic that came up

[@emmanuelmakoba6085]

Dr Brown's challenge was still spot on and fair

[@692MOM]

I am so disappointed that the American Gospel put out this video justifying Luther's behavior toward the Jews, in the name of being a religious enemy of the cross.

[@davids3487]

I agree!! When Dr. Brown brought that up about Luther. It seemed Mr. Peters and Mr. Osman was like, "Uh oh, We were not expecting that,"😅 Somehow, they got back to Benny Hinn anyway.

[@g.h_-heart-_bunny]

Did you people even watch this video and think about what Chris actually said?

[@emmanuelmakoba6085]

@@g.h_-heart-_bunny Yes I did

[@692MOM]

@@g.h_-heart-_bunny Yeah, I did!

[@michelerivera2330]

What made me really realize their lack of discernment was there defense of Mike Bickle. Before all this stuff came out.! Bickle was being deceptive for decades. I think that was providential timing there😮.

[@cldrawings1224]

Really how about Ravi?

[@michelerivera2330]

@@cldrawings1224 him too. Very sad.

[@cldrawings1224]

@@michelerivera2330 @michelerivera2330 did you know about Ravi before all the things about him came out?

[@TheBdriver]

Guess you missed the screen note that pointed out Storms and Brown at the time of recording were not aware of the new revelations about Bickle

[@juansebastianmottaperdomo7428]

Amazing video!

[@supersmart671]

Why was Chris not there in the conversation 😕 😒 🤔 😐

[@e.m.8094]

I'd like to see a MB/CR discussion.

[@StevenKozarMessedUpChurch]

Dr. Michael Brown in the beginning of the American Gospel roundtable discussion: "This isn't a debate." Also Dr. Michael Brown: *I'm gonna come prepared with a bunch of 'gotcha!' quotes from Martin Luther so I can WIN this debate!!*

[@bettycarmella1127]

🤦🏽‍♀️😂

[@DH-vy8hw]

That Brown talked waaaaay toooo much!!!!

[@travismayselah]

As did Justin and as a one that agrees with Justin, I believe it was a very fair equation. Think through this fairly…

[@toolegittoquit_001]

DR. MICHAEL BROWN is nothing if not disingenuous 🤨

[@coffeeandword]

It wasn't Dr. Brown sitting there with a laptop with quotes and clips ready to go. I'm surprised someone as 'detailed' as yourself missed that one Steve!

[@ogmakefirefiregood]

It is very easy to judge someone by modern standards. Not defending Luther specifically, I'm just pointing out that everyone lived in a historical context.

[@markkozlowski3674]

Luther called for Jews who refused to convert to Christianity to be herded into their synagogues, and the synagogues then burned to the ground. What "historical context" excuses this?

[@lilacDaisy111]

No matter our historical context, the Bible says, "You know o man what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to *do justice, love kindness, and to walk humbly* with your God." I'm brand new to finding this heartbreaking news of Luther, but it seems he butchered all three requirements of the Lord. :-(

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

According to Christ's doctrine, a person will reveal who they are by the words they speak(Matt. 15:18-19). That is a universal truth that never changes with the time period. The kind of evil that Luther spoke, both against Jews and God's revelation, cannot be dismissed this easily. Luther possessed the same hatred for Jews and God's revelation that Antiochus Epiphanes did. Such a person is operating with the very mind of Satan himself.

[@markkozlowski3674]

What "historical context" justifies calling for the murder of Jews who refuse to convert to Christianity?

[@ogmakefirefiregood]

@markkozlowski3674 let this be a lesson to everyone. Some things are better off left unsaid. Absolutely nobody could stand the scrutiny of having all your thoughts analyzed. Luther should have shut up.

[@JorethaPhotos]

Question: How many people today does Luther lead astray by using God's name in vain to enrich himself, misrepresent God in a blasphemous way, and promote fake healings in the name of God? What was Luther's great frustration with the Jews of his time and if you take his choice of words spoken in the time of Luther and translate it into modern English, you're going to find different conclusions. For example, translation of the word Scheisse, isn’t that bad in German, but, in American English, it translates, sh*t, and is considered profane. Another part is culture. That same word is considered profane in America, but just considered a bit rude in England and not considered rude at all in other parts of the world. Profanity varies greatly from culture to culture. In his time and place, what Luther said was rude, but not considered profane. In South Africa, "crap" is considered profane by some people. For older people, crap means waste, late Middle English: related to Dutch krappe, from krappen ‘pluck or cut off’, and perhaps also to Old French crappe ‘siftings’, Anglo-Latin crappa ‘chaff’. The original sense was ‘chaff’, later ‘residue from rendering fat’, also ‘dregs of beer’. Current senses date from the late 19th century. Does a leader really care about the state of his flock if he throws a man like Martin Luther into this conversation, when soooooo many more people today are influenced by a false gospel, through a man like Benny Hinn (more than Martin Luther ever dreamt of influencing)? The Nazis were notorious for using respectable teachers to fuel their agenda and fool even the churches of the day. Dietrich Bonhoeffer attested to that, in recent times, there are people even using and twisting Bonhoeffer's writings to justify racism.

[@familymatters9018]

Luther was not wrong about the synagogue of satan

[@JimiSurvivor]

When Luther began to hate and murder the Jews he joined the camp of the one who was a "murderer from the beginning"

[@familymatters9018]

@@JimiSurvivor you really don't understand history. If you are in a war with someone who is trying to kill and murder your family and you don't protect your family then you are coward. It's not murder if you're defending others.

[@miltondavison-hc4ue]

No. But not all Jews were of the Pharisees either.

[@BipolarDistortion]

Engaging in apologetics for Luther's sin is a no go.

[@kkitao217]

“We need not fear governments that make the proper distinction of right and wrong.When we do well and we live peaceably in our nations…” Does that describe the authorities the peasants were rebelling against? If it doesn’t, was their revolt justified?

[@BeereasonAble]

Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God. 1 Corinthians 4:5

[@wtan5814]

Thank you Chris!

[@romanticandperky]

I'm of Jewish ancestry myself, and I am now a believer in Jesus Christ. When I was seven years old, I remember one Saturday, sitting on my bicycle in the parking lot of a Jewish temple; and inside for the shabbos service that day was Dr Martin Luther King. At the time, he was with author James Baldwin; author of, among other things, 'The Fire Next Time'. My great uncle Jacob was with the U.S. diplomatic service, and he had been stationed in Berlin in November of 1938. Hmm. The last time I saw uncle Jacob was in Christmas Eve, sometime during the 80s, in Washington D.C.

[@jandrayer4825]

This veers uncomfortably towards a whitewash of Luther's words and deeds. Brown's point is salient with respect to Osman and Peter's reluctance to hold Luther to the same standard that they do any of the heretics they mentioned.

[@normnorumi3780]

Luther's deeds? What are you referring to?

[@jandrayer4825]

"I, Martin Luther, have during the rebellion slain all the peasants, for it was I who ordered them to be struck dead." Erlangen Edition of Luther's Works, Vol. 59, p. 284

[@normnorumi3780]

@@jandrayer4825 Sounds like words to me, not deeds.

[@jandrayer4825]

@@normnorumi3780Luther wasn't ordering Chinese....he was ordering an action. In this case his it's a deed.

[@normnorumi3780]

@@jandrayer4825 Luther did not have authority over the soldiers. Their princes had that authority. Luther wrote and the princes ordered after having read Luther's writing. Do you have a context for the quote?

[@g.h_-heart-_bunny]

Thank you for this video. To bad some people won't watch the whole video and think about but will comment their opinion anyway...

[@Sojourners_Path]

Murder is murder regardless of time or forms of government. Ugly rhetoric leading to murder is like yelling fire in a crowded theater, whether js is “theologically based” or “racially based”. No murderer had eternal life. I hope Martin Luther repented, but it is unfortunate that the ugliness happened more prominently toward the end of his life. The good of any life does nothing to absolve or minimize the ugly, regardless of their repentance or eternal state. Dr. Browns point is that there seems to be a quicker effort to create context and a potential defenseiveness for Luther over our contemporaries. This is his concern, resulting in unequal weights and measures. God’s standards transcend time and cultural appropriateness. Sir you have no right to say what someone in the past would or would not have done whose legacy is quite checkered. It is beyond our pay scale to presume what a historical figure could be or become capable of.

[@StacyHartChristianMusic]

Well said!!!😊

[@SirThighmaster]

Sincere question - do you think King David had eternal life?

[@SeanCGunn]

Thank you, Chris, I was wondering who would consider the context of what Luther was saying.

[@markkozlowski3674]

What is the "context" which in any way excuses Luther's call for killing Jews?

[@lilacDaisy111]

Excellent. After yesterday's "roundtable" I was just doing a web search and found an article by The Gospel Coalition called Luther’s Jewish Problem. They didn't sugarcoat a thing, but I was still left wondering about sanctification and aren't we supped to end up more like Jesus as time goes on, not much less! Looking forward to Chris Rosebrough's take on this, so I'll press play.

[@yellowblackbird9000]

Sanctification isn't justification. Luther was being sanctified up until the end, and he was much more complex than a single treatise he wrote.

[@lootbird]

Maybe sanctification is an erroneous concept

[@yellowblackbird9000]

@@lootbird why do you say that?

[@orthodoxpilgrimofficial]

Everything you have said is true and correct according to the latest Luther scientific research, best regards from an Orthodox Christian from Germany.

[@pebcak]

Benny Hinn's theology is not the same a Luther's theology. One disparages Christ while the other drew people to Christ. Both men have exhibited certain sins, but only one has exhibited any good fruit. I would also consider Solomon, who fell into sin later in life.

[@charlynesimms9451]

Aren't they in the process of building a temple?

[@DTH1661]

Context, context, context. Is there a context to sin? Really?

[@dvdshadow]

There is, in some sense, to looking back in history and judging what we now call wrong, but at the time may have been common (though still sinful). Luther really crossed the line, but according to Roland Bainton, the way Luther wrote was extremely common to the way all sorts of religious groups wrote about one another.

[@billleroy6736]

Why would anyone think someone is in Hell now. The Great white throne judgement hasn't happened yet.

[@ahabion]

So if I'm to flesh out Brown's argument to its logical conclusion, if Luther was a false teacher, then all that follows must also be false, which points to the Protestant Reformation. Even in the worst light, if I were to grant that the Protestant Reformation was false, what's the alternative? Historically, Catholicism but in the world of make-believe, The Prosperity Reformation by Benny Hinn or the Blessed Life Reformation by Olsteen?

[@williammarinelli2363]

16th century dichotomy creation: Rome or Protestant reformation, because what's the alternative? Bible believing Christianity which was persecuted by both Rome and Protestantism. 21st century dichotomy creation: Modern day reformed theology or Joel Osteen? I happen to be a Bible believer that shuns the influence of both. But if reformed theology is correct, with its Augustinian (Luther's hero) perversions of Biblical election and predestination, then Osteen does no harm in any eternal sense. WCF ch 3 says all things that come to pass are decreed in eternity past, including the immutable populations of heaven and hell. Funny how the false teacher somehow does harm but the good news of the Gospel falls on deaf ears, by divine decree, concerning the reprobate.

[@GospelTruthMedia]

No, the alternative then, (and now) is "anabaptism". The anabaptists were the true believers of Luthers day (that's why all the reformers persecuted them--even unto death). The reformation was not a true reformation, it was only changing some doctrines and taking power from Rome and giving it to the reformers. They changed doctrinally but continued to live sinful lives (we can see that from reading Luthers own words) the anabaptists preached true repentance and the need for obedience (and adult baptism which all the reformers rejected--even to the point of murdering the anabaptists from rejecting infant baptism). The reformation was a terrible hybrid of worldly politics and theological debates. The good that came out of it was that some had their eyes opened and searched the scripture (like those that started the anabaptist movements) but the reformers were it seems mostly the blind leading the blind...perhaps better than catholic, but not much.

[@williammarinelli2363]

@@GospelTruthMedia Y'all read what GTM says because he makes awesome points about the reformation. I would add that, in Western Culture, reformers got to write the history books. Example: Why was Queen Mary I called Bloody Mary? Because she had people killed (in favor of her religion - Catholicism.) And what was Henry XIII doing? (I mean when he wasn't trying to trade in his current wife for a newer model, an issue in which the Pope and RC Church was in the right.) See Cardinal Woolsey and Thomas More for starters. What was Queen Eliz I doing? Beheading her Catholic cousin from Scotland. Consider that Protestant rule under "Lord Protector" Oliver Cromwell was so bad that they reinstituted the abolished monarchy; as well as dug up his cadaver to give it a proper beheading and throw his body onto a dung hill. For more historical whitewash check out Foxe's Book of Martyrs' "well, no one's perfect" narratives on Calvin's murder of Servetus or Luther's persecution of Anabaptists.

[@JimiSurvivor]

I would say Luther had false teachings. I and I think Dr. Brown draws the line at HATE and MURDER

[@herekittykitty9324]

All I can say is wow....just wow.

[@annaujlaki-gyori3655]

I have been wondering myself about how I can trust Luther's take on many things when he was soo off about handling Jews. (I listened to a whole biography about Luther as a Protestant myself.) This is not to excuse false teachers. Just an honest question about how to discern who is legitimately interpreting the Bible.

[@gailwatson4927]

Thank Chris. I love history and learning about the history of church leaders. You will not learn about these points in the history books.

[@Sean.hinchlffe]

Oh the hypocrisy of Brown & Storms when they tried to compare Benny Hinn & others sin to Luther’s. I wouldn’t trust anything them two would say.

[@chrissanfino761]

Leaders are held to a higher standard. So whether it's Luther or Benny hinn, they both need to publicly repent of their wrongdoing and be held accountable afterwards.

[@user-sn8bm2qy9o]

Jesus Christ ist the measure of all things!

[@javilla98]

Sin is sin that is clear, but how can you compare a medieval man to a modern standard

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

We can compare Luther against God's standard, because it applies to everyone, because it is just, and because it never changes. The kind of evil Luther represented is completely unacceptable for a professing Christian to engage in, regardless of the time period. God doesn't change His standard to fit the morals of human civilization of any period. Christ said judge by the fruits, and Luther's are evident for anyone of any time period to see.

[@JimiSurvivor]

The Christians in the Ante-Nicene period lived at an even earlier time than Luther but rather than kill they showed themselves willing to BE KILLED for Christ

[@grady7905]

Luther is unqualified. It’s not just the doctrine it’s the way of life. Luther life was not a reflection of the gospel, it was just an intellectual representation!!!

[@DeconTheMonkey]

He is saying yes but no. Scales that only tilt to one side. Say it what you will, Dr Brown is right to point this out and all is said in response is “not the right context.”

[@somemedic8482]

My question is , why on earth would a follower of Jesus call themselves a Lutheran, someone who was a mere human. Instead of just identifying as a Christian.

[@StacyHartChristianMusic]

My thoughts exactly!!!😊

[@danmarley2886]

Amen, let no man glory in men, according to the Bible.

[@JimiSurvivor]

The fact that Martin Luther's low moral standards and racial prejudices belonged to many others of his generation is NO EXCUSE. Christians, especially one claiming to be a man of the scriptures are called to be "children of the Highest" who are IN the world but not OF it. Jesus teachings we call The Beatitudes are simple teachings which Martin Luther knew very well. 27 But to those of you WHO WILL LISTEN, I say: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, do good to those who hate you, 28 BLESS those who curse you, PRAY FOR those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Luke 6:27-31) Luther knew what the Savior had commanded. However, mankind naturally loves himself and his own people and race above all but we are called to a higher walk 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be MERCIFUL, just as your Father is MERCIFUL (Luke 6:35-36) However, Luther made this passage about the difference between salvation by faith verses works although this issue is not addressed in the Beatitudes. This is the way he protected hi heart from conviction and turned the passage against his enemies the Catholics and Anabaptists

[@completoencristo]

Would Paul be considered a heretic ? Would David be considered a heretic ? There’s a difference between twisting God’s word and sinning.

[@JimiSurvivor]

You cannot be a heretic until you are first enlightened by the Spirit.

[@champchamp4819]

I knew it when he said it! Because of his overly emotionalism ! I knew he was off on the context! These charismatics never cease to amaze me. Thanks for the clear up brother! Blessings

[@graysonbr]

Being a Baptist and knowing a lot about the Reformation. The reformation was truly Ulrich Zwingli and Hubmaier was the pure reformer and held onto a pure returning to the word and abandon all Catholic teachings and traditions. Luther fell back into some Catholic ideas as in how they viewed the Lord's Supper. Many baptists were assumed to be like the peasants because they didn't agree to a full submission to the civic magistrates and saw God's kingdom as one to come. Calvin and Luther both approved to their killing as a result.

[@JimiSurvivor]

Luther never fully loosed himself from the graveclothes of Catholocism. Instead, he perpetuated it by assuming secular power thereby making himself a new Pope. He knew the Bible well enough to see that what he was doing was wrong. When Jesus was asked if He was a king.... 36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36) Some people here have tried to defend Luther's actions saying that what he did was not based on personal prejudice but on theological matters or the need for societal order but the crucifixion of Jesus could be defended on the same basis and the execution of countless martyrs as well. They disrupted order by refusing to worship as Roman society did. When the Jews refused Luther's message, the Reformer grew angry and turned on them. The words he wrote reveal the deep contempt and violent hatred he had for the Jewish people. In 1543 Luther wrote that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as FILTH." They are full of the "DEVIL'S FECES... which they WALLOW IN like SWINE." He called the synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an INCORRIGIBLE WHORE and an EVIL SLUT Honestly, where does this vile disgust come from? I submit that they came from Satan who has contempt for all men and considers them worthless. In his battle to bring the Jews to Christ Luther was drawn to the Enemy's camp and became numbered with such men as Haman and Herod. Paul, who suffered more from the hands of his fellow Jews than Luther ever did said this about his countrymen said this about them: …2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, 4 the people of Israel. (Romans 9:2-3) In modern times the Ten Boom family was willing to go to the concentration camp to save the Jewish people. Their names are remembered to this day in Israel.

[@marklar2012]

What is more sinful, to blaspheme God or to offend another persons nationality and religion? Brown seems like to think that one of the biggest sins is sin of hatred towards jewishness.

[@markkozlowski3674]

Well, that hatred did lead to that little Holocaust thing.

[@ab-gail]

@@markkozlowski3674 Actually no. Hitler did the holocaust. He used Luther’s words among other things and events as an excuse. You can’t pin the Holocaust on Luther.

[@ab-gail]

I agree. I think Jim and Justin would’ve pushed back harder if they were afraid to offend Dr Brown. We all know the holocaust was a horrible thing. Sad that Dr. Brown used it to bully the men who disagree with him.

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

Christ stated in Matt. 5 that hating somebody without a just cause is murder, and racism definitely falls into that category. It has caused many atrocities that occurred throughout human history. Hating a person because of their ethnicity ALWAYS leads to the physical act of murder. So yes, that is a big problem as far as God is concerned. As Christ told the Jews in Jhn 8, that attitude comes from the devil. He is the father of ppl like Martin Luther.

[@reformedcatholic457]

Luther taught baptism saves. From Luther's small catechism. What benefits does Baptism give? It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare. Which are these words and promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16) How can water do such great things? Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God’s word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul says in Titus, chapter three: “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying.” (Titus 3:5-8) catechism.cph.org/en/sacrament-of-holy-baptism.html

[@chanceotter8121]

Luther has been judged by the Lord he served in 1546. Michael Brown uses the very public sins of Martin Luther from five centuries ago to deflect away from the theological disasters perpetrated within the Charismatic movement he is a self-appointed leader in. It is an interesting strategic maneuver on the part of Brown and Storm: You first defend the salvation of Luther (or Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, Knox, Wesley or whoever up to Billy Graham) than we might pass judgment on the contradictory heavenly tourism accounts of friends. Brown has always leaped from someone asking him to defend the excesses of the prosperity teachers or the Bethel apostolic movement to “I am not going to say they are not saved,” which is not what anybody is asking him to do. Did Luther’s writing at the end of his life contradict the doctrines espoused in the Book of Concord and the Holy Scriptures? Well, at least there is a canon to judge from. What men like Brown and Storm refuse to acknowledge is there is no canon within the prosperity movement or the prophetic apostolic movement to judge what is said or done. The bar changes position whenever necessary. No one wants Brown to judge the souls of Copeland, Hinn, Johnson, Bickle to salvation or damnation; we just are asking for parameters to judge heresy and apostasy from orthodoxy and orthopraxy within the Charismatic movement. The fact they refuse to do so is the problem.

[@JimiSurvivor]

Brown just correctly identified what Luther did as hate and murder which is exactly what it was. Anyone who tries to spin it any other way by arguing false equivalencies is just fooling himself. Do you really think the fact that Luther lived 5 centuries ago offers any shred of defense. What about Jesus? He lived 2000 years ago and He said that His kingdom was NOT OF THIS WORLD, that if it were His servants would fight like Luther had his followers fight and kill the Anabaptists and the Jews. This showed clearly that Luther was not of the same Spirit as his professed master. It does not matter if Luther contradicted the Book of Concord if He contradicted the essence of Christ's Spirit.

[@c.a.r.s.carsandrelevantspecs]

I have a great appreciation for American Gospel, and I appreciate that Chris Rosebrough addressed the sins of Martin Luther. With that, even though Martin Luther helped clarify certain doctrines, I believe he was too severely sinful to be looked up to as a good Christian leader.

[@RestoringYourVoice]

I'm going to have to do a response video to this. There's way too many serious errors and excuse sin for me not to. Chris is very ignorant of what most Jews believe (hint: most aren't religious and couldn't care less about Jesus). The excusing of shedding blood, man. God willing, I will do a live show on this later in the week.

[@LK_Ireland]

LOL

[@YouTubeaccount48473]

Haha, good thing Rosebrough was available to clean up after the disaster that was this part of the "round table" with Storms and Brown. Storms and Brown may be crazy, and they are, but they certainly won that exchange.

[@Clintboyd]

Intellectual honesty. 🎉

[@ab-gail]

They only won it through making the other team uncomfortable. And they get to ignore their enabling of Hinn’s sins.

[@robertthornton9528]

Luther, Calvin.....the list is long. Didn't these men read the new testament ?

[@olufemifatomiloye5193]

Chris make it more clear 🙏

[@JamesBates-ng2my]

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. The only sword we have is the word of God. Jesus rebuked Peter when he cut of Malchus' ear, and said, "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." The Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. There is a time to kill, just not for the spirit filled man of God. We are to love one another and endure all things. We edify and tell each other the truth through the word, but we never hurt one another physically or any other way. The word says, "Be angry and don't sin." Submitting to the governing authorities is more or less ignoring them. Paul says, "The law is for manslayers, and adulterers ect." Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what's Caesar's, and give to God what's God's. God wants our heart, soul, mind and strength, the government gets our obedience to the laws. How can one seek God's kingdom and be worried about what's going on in the world?

[@tomharmon5198]

Did Luther believe like Calvin??

[@JimiSurvivor]

Except for certain points yes. The uninitiated would find their systems indistinguishable

[@TTUGStudios]

I think the confusion and overlap is coming from the addressed concerns. What Luther said about fellow Jews and etc was reprehensible. What Benny and Copeland do today is also reprehensible. Justin and Osman spoke to the heretical and blasphemes statements they make on a daily. They put words in Gods mouth and add to the Bible or twist it, that is the crime that Justin is zeroing on. Luther on the other hand was reprehensible to his fellow man and Jew, that is what Justin and Osman are pointing out. So in only theological context and frame, they are worse Luther, and since Luthers problem was not theological (in their argument), you can say through his fruit of the Reformation that he was a saved, yet flawed human. He's rhetoric however, to me, is still overwhelming and would draw his sanctification into question. There is no defending that, its to much vitriol, context or not. Copeland and others have no fruit, they are swindlers and conmen using the bible and gospel for a profit and to live lives of debauchery. They blaspheme the Lord and lead others astray with them into Hell. They keep men and woman poor, they take their last cent. they shield them from the true Gospel and they knowingly create false miracles and twist the words of Christ to make a buck. They are a false brethren that have come from among us and their destruction is sure. Brown brings up Luther and rightfully so, i would have...it troubles me. In all this, any solid fortified Believer can and will tell you Luther was a Christian, a true believer, highly flawed as he was. Reformed circles definitely need to address these issues and not just render it to ''they were men of their time".

[@ameliacoburn4787]

Luther responded to the Jews the same way that he and Calvin responded to Baptists/anti-baptists (like me)..... drowned and burned some of them at the stake. It's horrible, a very serious crossing into sinfulness, but yes, they were indeed men of their time/culture and that makes it, no less sad, but at least more understandable.

[@THATjeffdelaney]

Well, I would imagine Rosebrough is heavily into making a video to refute what Michael Brown just said. Yikes.

[@kerisutt7579]

Osmund and Peters were very weak with this part of the discussion.

[@ab-gail]

They made the mistake of assuming they’d just need the fact when Dr. Brown immediately made an emotional.

[@andrewjaynes92]

I’m genuinely curious what your thoughts would be on Jonathan Edwards owning slaves. Could you or someone from American Gospel repertoire produce a similar video discussing Edwards apparent support of slavery. One question you could address is “Does Edwards historical context obfuscate the moral impropriety of owning slaves?” Another gentleman who you likely would have included in the American Gospel documentary had he been preaching today is Charles Finney. I am assuming this on the basis of his extreme doctrinal positions relative to men like Edwards, Presbyterians, and anyone right of a disgruntled baptist joining a non-denominational congregation. He commands the loyalty of throngs in the charismatic camp to this day. Especially those who favor promoting revivals. Finney opposed slavery in strong terms. See quote below. “The Church is God's witness. The fact is, that Slavery is, pre-eminently, the sin of the Church. It is the very fact that ministers and professors of religion of different denominations hold slaves, which sanctifies the whole abomination, in the eyes of ungodly men.”(Finney, Lectures on Revival, 15). Another question to address would be “how do we view this apparent blind spot of supporting slavery in Edwards life? Does this make him a false teacher, and in need of the same rebuking that you may say Finney deserved in other doctrinal areas?”

[@truthdefenders-]

Thanks for calling brown out on his slander and lies about Luther, it's shameful that he was so hesitant to accept documented facts on his charlatan friends but quickly sidetracked to attack Luther.

[@markkozlowski3674]

Martin Luther called for the murder of Jews who refused to convert to Christianity.

[@hk4lyfe59]

Then fact that you all don't hold Luther to the same standard as Benny Hinn is sad. It makes me question the integrity of your ministries altogether.

[@JayWard4031]

They’re not even comparable. What people like Benny Hinn are doing is absolutely destroying Christianity and are the ones Jesus warns us about

[@JimiSurvivor]

Did Benny Hinn persecute and murder the Jews and other Christians?

[@e.m.8094]

Why doesn't CR confront the "Progressive Christianity" movement? Many of them don't even believe in the deity of Jesus or in his resurrection. 😕

[@nadams8863]

He does

[@jonycruz2430]

Crazy how many of you after all Jesus did call yourselves after the last name of a mere man who is flawed who lived 1500yrs after Jesus. Super cringe.

[@tiruncarswell3326]

If I could like this comment a million times I would.

[@StacyHartChristianMusic]

@@tiruncarswell3326As I read through the comments, I’m thinking the same thing!😊

[@matthewlight6470]

If Luther claim to fame is Sola Scriptura , and my going back to the Bible he was enlightened to reformed the established church , and rightly so . How did he exegete from the Bible , the teachings and of Jesus and the apostles to arrive at the conclusion that the hardness of the Jews should be responded by capital punishment. ? Did he think he could do better than Paul ? And how did teach the peasants and princes of which both believe in his theology that lead to peasants rebellion and the prince not reforming their rule ? Reform means changing the norms of the status .. by going back to the Bible .. how can we label Lutherhe his actions as a man of his times ? We may not like to call Luther a false teacher … but some of his teaching that impacted many followers are false . So he at best an occasional false teacher. Explain to me otherwise .

[@jenkinsbrigade9862]

Brown's lack of self-awareness when making a false equivalence between Luther's culturally ingrained antisemitism and Bickle's biblical disqualification for ministry, due to both his sexual immorality AND his teaching of false doctrine, is astonishing in the extreme.

[@matthewmartin7639]

To be fair, Bickle's accusations had not come out when the round table was filmed. This is addressed by a statement interjected when his name came up.

[@TheJpep2424]

Brown has zero discernment and defends some of the worst false teachers and blasphemous heretics the world has ever seen.

[@coffeeandword]

What false doctrine? Jim and Justin were asked about that and talked about the weather. They couldn't name an issue of orthodoxy that Bickle had crossed. If we are to judge Bickel as false for his sin, and given what I understand it to be, it me be reasonable to do so, should we not then also hold Luther to the same standard?

[@ab-gail]

THANK YOU

[@ab-gail]

@@coffeeandword The standard was right teaching and in that case Luther beats Bickle in spades. Chris Roseborough (channel: Fight for the Faith) has videos on it if you’re willing to listen to a different opinion.

[@jobinkoshy8197]

Why werent these Luther's statements mentioned by any protestant youtubers? Where is the intellectual honesty and transparency? I came to know this through brown alone 😡

[@Tothehighwaysandbyways]

It’s pretty common knowledge

[@jonycruz2430]

@@Tothehighwaysandbywayswow gas lighting

[@Tothehighwaysandbyways]

@@jonycruz2430 🤦🏻🤦🏻🤦🏻

[@craigj5403]

Probably because our faith isn't in Luther.

[@jonycruz2430]

@@craigj5403 yeah but you claim his last name how cringe is that. Life a wife claims her husbands last name. So cringe.

[@CarlosHernandez-dt3gp]

Chris unfortunately the scales of sin are God's to measure, context or not, sin is sin brother. The point Michael Brown made is valid.

[@ab-gail]

The point Justin and Osman made was doubly valid. Weird that suddenly we’re ignoring the man who’s still harming the body in order attack a dead man. We can’t so anything about Luther. How about we lead people away from the guy taking SS money from old ladies, huh?

[@cldrawings1224]

​@@ab-gailand the double standards Brown demonstarted with Peters and Osman is also valid!

[@TheBdriver]

​. I watched 3 of the 4 hrs so far. I was especially impressed with Justin showing up for that. I didnt think he'd ever do that. He was very cordial and kind too I found a new respect for him Aside from that all 4 at the table found a lot of common ground. Now it seems like his contemporaries want to re divide

[@kristoferevins5790]

More weird is the assumption you just made, that dead men's false teachings don't effect people, and don't assume I align with Brown on everything. I agree with both sides on calling out those who have spoken against God.g​@ab-gail

[@g.h_-heart-_bunny]

Isn't it interesting how Brown took the time to look up Luther but refuses to watch even one video of Benny Hinn. I call that double standards and for Brown to bring up Luther and refuse to call out B. Hinn.

[@grady7905]

If reform theology means to be like Luther, I rather be a Muslim.