Bill Gothard: What Christians Should Know About His Unbiblical Teachings, w/ Don Veinot & Ron Henzel

[@margueritemccartney2108]

I attended a week-long seminar of Bill Gothard in the 80s. I learned many useful things and was able to repair the broken relationship with my father due to his teaching . My husband cured his gallstones using his medical advice. There were definitely things I didn't agree with him on and was dismayed he ended in a scandal. I found him helpful and very gracious. You are correct in saying "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." One should never follow a man, but Christ only. ✝️

[@yosefnachmanbender]

I believe I grew greatly in the Lord from this man's teaching

[@christiansaint716]

I also attended one of his seminars in the 70's. I was a very young Christian at the time (as well as a young adult), but I still got a lot of good info from it.

[@Cluedinage]

He was very entertaining as a speaker weaving together a smooth narrative, even while painting a huge landscape in real time. I recall the shock when he slashed though the scene with huge black vertical strokes, but those became the trees in the foreground, which gave the painting some beautiful depth... and drove home the point that traumatic events in life can be painted into beauty and depth. His clearest instruction, though, was to meditate on scripture, and memorize chapters at a time. As he instructed, I memorized Mt 5-7, Romans 1-8, numerous psalms and chapters of Proverbs... and continue that practice 40+ years later. I'm sad that he went off the rails, but I had practically forgotten about him when I learned of it.

[@beckysmith6375]

@Cluedinage Yes! Thank you so much for reminding me of the chalk drawings! His teaching on suffering was so transformative for me. The idea that God will use the suffering in our lives if we let Him, to make something beautiful. There was a gasp in the audience when he took a black chalk and drew an ugly black line right across the beautiful ocean or mountain lake scene, which he had drawn as he was teaching! It seemed that he had intentionally ruined his beautiful scene, but he had a surprise in store when he turned the black marks into beautiful palm trees! Wow! I'm blessed just remembering the experience. Our family never missed the night of a chalk drawing...

[@tomlipp7508]

God used Gothard in my life to do much good. Only when the PRINCE of peace leads us in the application of the numerous PRINCIPLES, will we have true success. PRINCIPLE without the leadership of the PRINCE is just IPLE, and IPLE is a mixed-up PILE of something.

[@amanwell3619]

My parents were introduced to him in the 80s by friends. Consequently, we attended the seminars every year. Growing up in Metro Detroit, we attended the live conferences at Cobo Hall. The advanced seminars were also held locally. I'm 50 years old now, and didn't realize just how damaging his teachings were and how deeply they wounded me. I watched the documentary that was released last year and then went down that rabbit hole. I'm shocked and appalled at just how far reaching and how damaging this cult was. I still catch myself repeating *Gotherdisms* and upon the realization of this, thanks to the Holy Spirit, I stop myself and reframe them with Biblical truth. Thank you for bringing increased awareness to this topic as it's desperately needed. 🙏

[@drake0421]

We went to a Gothard seminar and gleaned many things that were Biblical. Discernment is an important part of anything. We were never 100% Gothard. We were 100% for Jesus. That makes a difference.

[@beckysmith6375]

Alisa, in my late teens years, I went to one of Bill Gothard's seminars on the recommendation of a neighbor. I was very new in my faith and was the only believer in my family. I was having conflicts with my father over dating and boyfriends. At the seminar I was presented with the teachings about honoring parents, and the Holy Spirit convicted me of my dismissive, rebellious attitudes toward my father. I went home and apologized to him, and was he ever astonished! The tensions and conflicts began to be resolved quickly in our home, and the next year, he, my mom, and sister joined me in going to the seminar. We went year after year! (It was free after paying the first time). It really brought our family together! Please let us tell our story also!

[@amybee40]

I had a very similar experience. But then I never went to a church where everyone was into Gothard. I went to one seminar with my parents as a teen. And one adult seminar early in my marriage. In both I found very Bible-based principles that helped to re-orient my young Christian life onto a better path. Boy was my high-school boyfriend stunned when I called him up and apologized for "defrauding" him!

[@beckysmith6375]

Here's one other thought on this particular podcast. The drumbeat that Gothard's teachings are unbiblical, but with no precise quotes, began to give this episode the feel of "gossip." Alisa Childers should have these two gentlemen state what the 7 non optional principles of life are, as stated in the IBLP literature, and then use Scripture to show the error in those principles. Too much of this interview consisted of unsubstantiated claims, or anecdotal stories such as the mention of the pregnant woman. Her story has very little bearing on whether Gothard's seminar content is biblical or not. God's word calls having many children a blessing!

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

@@beckysmith6375 that verse actually has to do with having sons who could protect the family holdings of land, sheep, women, etc. there were always raiders ready to come and steal---a quiver holds about 8 arrows. people should have as many kids as they want and can afford, not a set number. ----also the shame put on people who cannot have or do not want children.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

God can use anything He needs to in order to get His will done. in your case, you heard what He wanted you to hear in order to heal your relationship with your dad. but had you done all the other things, like giving up your agency to be under a male authority or worn dresses or not go to college or have a career or had dozens of kids --those things have little to do with God's will except on an individual basis, not what God wants for every single female believer as His perfect will.

[@bobharms8787]

Grieves me greatly when people take their lack of faith and throw mud at others...accusations are satanic, lead to condemnation and condemnation is casting one into hell....it is reserved for final judgment. Trusting ones faith in grace does not allow for casting one into hell....that is cultists. Lord help us, father forgive them they know not what they do. I will not buy books from profiteers ... like authors and musicians in the name of Jesus...Balaam comes to mind...it grieves my heart.

[@dianacarr5515]

So glad to see so many people have such positive comments. Because i've been thinking we should redo his matherial and start a program because it has done so much to build health Godly principles in people's lives.

[@bobhoyer775]

I Re dedicated myself to the Lord at a Gothard seminar in about 1973/4. Been walking with God since.

[@wawabbit]

😊

[@steveemig6947]

I was saved at Bill Gothards basic youth conflicts in May 1973. I have been serving and loving Jesus for 50 years. But thanks for your information. God bless.

[@amylynnhunt55]

As we know, God can use anyone. He even gave speech to a donkey in the Old Testament. My Mom loved Mike Warnke, who we all later found had made up his stories, but something he said moved my wonderful, godly Mama'd heart. She took us to a Bill Gothard event in the early 1980s. I still remember how incredibly painful just being there one night was. Thankfully we were watched over & my father said the events were lasting too late for kids, so we only went one night. But the books, being told to put a picture of a sloth on my wall? To call me a sloth if my room was not perfect? Again, very watched over or I would have thought Jesus was as cruel as Bill Gothard. A man who never married, had no children, lost his ministry for being inappropriate with underage girls. I'm glad we both know Jesus, and that God can use really anyone.

[@beckysmith6375]

@amylynnhunt55 I remember Mike Warnke too. He gave some interesting messages for sure! Could you share what you heard specifically on the first night of the Basic Seminar that you found incredibly painful? I remember the first night teaching on the 10 unchangeable aspects of life. Things like nationality, gender, birth order, socioeconomic level, etc are things we don't get to choose when we are born. God will use all these aspects of our lives in the wonderful plan he has for us. There was no teaching on a sloth, or putting one on a childs wall. (And no books are distributed till the last day of the seminar on Saturday.) Perhaps your parents just thought that up. 🤔 Sorry it happened to you, but Bill Gothard's teaching was not cruel at all. If he was, could you please specify what pages in the textbook or what particular teaching?

[@beckysmith6375]

@amylynnhunt55 I agree with you that holding a girls hand is wrong, or tapping her foot under the table which several girls have accused him of. I don't excuse his behavior, and it was right to discipline him for that. But that doesn't make all of the contents of the seminars wrong.

[@AbbaJoy1]

@@beckysmith6375 I think it's a common dilemma if you've purchased materials from a ministry, and you later hear of corruption, deception, or immorality in the ministry. Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater? Can the same fountain produce bitter water and sweet? Regardless of logic or truth, there is the emotional side, too. I literally have a pain in my stomach and feel nauseous because of some things that have been uncovered. I scraped to buy Gothard's materials. Now I cannot bear to use them, and I hate to throw them away because they were so difficult for me to buy. Yet some of the teaching was wrong. Do I now spend my limited time examining every point, or just not use it? I can honestly remember at least one beneficial realization as a result of the seminars. But some was harmful and traumatic. I haven't sorted it all out. I'm just thankful that we spared some of the harm experienced by some of my close friends. My kids were able to differentiate the "foolishness of man's preaching," and the character of God. But many of their peers have rejected both Gothard and God.

[@AbbaJoy1]

@@beckysmith6375 I wonder if the sloth was from the Character Sketches, the very expensive books with beautiful pictures of animals and accompanying stories comparing their traits to behaviors we should or should not have. Based on the teachings, it's very believable that a parent would think that is an appropriate way to teach the child not to be a sloth, whether the material actually said to put a picture on the wall or not.

[@rrrrkoop2776]

went 4 times in the early 70's as part of my bible school curriculum, so did my girlfriend who is now my wife of 47 years. Was he perfect, no but it was one of the great biblical seminars of the day. brought so many families back together. I'm a graduate of 2 bible schools, have taught bible, preached in many places, my 9 kids are incredible and run my businesses. What can I say. It worked for me. Oh and my kids love Jesus also.

[@paulvoit5610]

Honoring God and His Truth are very different than 'it worked for me'

[@RodneyKoop]

@@paulvoit5610 True, but judging people long after the fact is for what purpose? to show how smart you are? Nay sayers sit on their butts and pretend to be wise while criticizing those who had massive ministries.

[@beckysmith6375]

@paulvoit5610 the Seminars prompted in me a greater desire to honor God and His Truth than I had had before. And it gave me concrete ways to do it such as memorizing Scripture, and using Scriptire to bless others. How is that not honoring to God?

[@RodneyKoop]

@@beckysmith6375 that was my experience as well.

[@paulvoit5610]

@@RodneyKoop Judging with righteous judgment before or after the fact is a command of Jesus in the Gospels. It is for the purpose of following Jesus and His Word which is Holiness.

[@SarahPeloquin]

As the eldest daughter of a former ATI family, I can attest that Gothard's teachings linger long after one leaves his organization and the wounds last longer...😢

[@TheNarrowWayIsLife]

I'm praying for you this evening, that the peace of God would envelope your soul. I pray this in the hallowed name of our Heavenly Father.

[@priscilamartinezavila194]

Thank you for writing this… I feel the same about feminism and I am dealing with the grief of the years I lost because I guided my life based on unbliblical beliefs

[@michellepeterson6320]

Right? where are those videos? Guess you and I should make one. I feel exactly the same way. @@priscilamartinezavila194

[@beckybailey5294]

The religious abuse and spiritual trauma from Gothard’s teachings are real! I’m still healing ❤️‍🩹

[@rebekahchalkley3252]

Sarah, I'm also the eldest daughter of an ATI family (and my dad vigorously defends Bill Gothard to this day) and I agree with you about the long-lasting effects of the damage! I hope you are healing and finding ways to thrive!

[@gjnether]

There are many principles I learned as a teen that have been a great blessing to me for all of my life. Understanding that God places authorities in our lives to protect us and to provide for us. Understanding how God made each of us uniquely and how important it is to trust the Lord and accept his design. Learning how to make a proper appeal to those in authority over me has been a great blessing in all of my life. Learning the importance of forgiving others and how to yield my rights. It is very sad the sinful choices that Gothard made later in his life. But his teachings have been a great blessing to me for so many years.

[@wawabbit]

What "sinful choices" are you talking about? You mean the accusations? Is he responsible for accusations? Nothing was ever proven. Ever. It's so strange that many so-called "christians" fail to do their own homework , but instead rely on others to do it for them. A person COULD actually go read all of the court papers, for instance. I did.

[@billweir8824]

Yes there are examples of people who followed well like Joash while jehoiada the priest guided him and then after dying the false people in the kingdom led him into idolatry please see christadelphian bible study and Christadelphian videos for great learning worldwide speakers from Australia New Zealand and Europe and North America

[@list1726]

Understanding Scripture is important

[@billweir8824]

Please see christadelphian bible study and Christadelphian videos for great learning worldwide speakers from Australia New Zealand and Europe and North America

[@Jane8ification]

Thank you for this podcast. I was not familiar with Gothard other than hearing his name before. But many of the things you spoke of rings true with the history of the spiritual movement I was a part of from 15 years old and then for 44 years. There was definately a living word of God coming to us, and even though there were many with their heart in the 'right' place, sincerely wanting to walk with God and be given in every way we could, it became such a mixture of human nature dictating both the leaders and the led. We were vulnerable and increasingly succombed to the dictates of the flesh in so many ways. It became so controlling and overbearing, it took the place of a true walk with God and coming to know the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Thankfully God made sure that fellowship was put to an end, which was a very devastating but also liberating experience! I thank the Lord for being faithful to His promise of being a good shepherd!

[@shellywhite9126]

Mr. Gothard was used greatly in my life in countless ways. I will always thank God for allowing me to attend the seminars and the Biblical teaching I heard on how to forgive others, the importance of loving children, not going into debt, honoring one’s parents, and so much more. Thirty years later my life is still greatly blessed from hearing these Bible principles from Mr. Gothard and choosing to follow God’s Word in these areas. I will always thank God for Mr. Gothard and I pray he will be greatly rewarded in heaven for how he helped me and so many others.

[@BarbStewart-x8h]

Wow! I’ll pray for you…please research false teachers…

[@beckysmith6375]

@user-wi9bn8mt6b It's baffling to see a comment like yours, which totally dismisses the experiences and facts that another person has shared about their own life. Do you do that to people face to face? Or just on social media?

[@wawabbit]

Yes, same here. It was at a seminar I first heard the gospel after attending church my whole life. I liked the basic principles on those things you mentioned. I believe certain parents were not following Gothard's teachings, but putting their own spin on things, rather than seeking the Lord through their own bible study. That's also THE main idea of Gothard's materials: Read, study, memorize Scripture! People like to blame others for their own failings and lack of relationship with the Most High God. All of this WILL come out in the wash.

[@music2myear]

I too found many good things through Mr Gothard's ministry, but I recognized the errors of his teachings beginning in my late teens to early twenties and fully reject him now. If he said true things, others have said them too, and too much of what he said and taught is false, without scriptural support, and actively destructive.

[@wawabbit]

@@music2myear Name one false teaching of Gothard's. Just one. Not saying I agree with him on all points, but I keep seeing and hearing that he's a cult leader and false teacher, but no one is saying the "what " I had a pastor years ago who tried to warn me off of going to a seminar. He could not say the "what" either. Instead he sent me a couple of articles from friends of his who had never been to a seminar, and had never read any Seminar materials. That didn't stop them from railing against Gothard. We went to the seminar anyway. I had prayed about it all. Asked God to show me exactly what the issue was, and He did. It was one little sentence. Gothard mentioned that Jesus died for "all men." That preacher did not believe that. He believes that God only "chose" some for salvation. - Interestingly, it was that exact statement that got me saved in 1980. I had believed that I was unredeemable. That I deserved hell, and that God could not love me again, after my heinous sins. When I heard that God loves even me, and that Jesus died for "all men," I said to myself: "I'm all men." In that instant, I was saved. -No one shouls hang onto every word a mere man says, but God can and does raise up those who willingly give up their lives to teach others how to live in this worls until Jesus comes again. Would that we ALL would give up all of our precious *things* and desires for our lives, and dedicate ourselves to the Lord to the point that we willingly put ourselves into the target zone of the Enemy, as we preach the gospel to every creature, as commanded.

[@larnegabriel5604]

As one of Bill Gothard's pilots in 1979-80 during the 1980 scandal and having known Bill for over 50 years and marrying his executive secretary (one of the abused women of the scandal), I find Ron and Don's investigation and conclusions are very justified and spot on. Their book is solid and worth reading. Like most false teachers not all their teaching is heretical, but some is and misused by both the teacher and some of his followers. This is the case with Gothard. He did not practice what he taught and was and remains unrepentant of those abuses and sins.

[@pinkiesue849]

Thanks for your testimony

[@colleenwalsh6899]

I attended Bill Gothard seminars in Detroit in the early 80's. I was a new Christian but found some of his teachings to be very odd. Now 40 some years later, I see that many of his teachings were not biblical. Yikes

[@RobertMoehle]

Could we say that "Nobody is wrong 100 per cent of the time"?

[@bingersinger1517]

@Larnegabriel5604 you are truly a truth seeker. Your testimony has opened many eyes and hearts. My family is destroyed by gothard’s teachings. As a parent sucked into iblp/ati I have repented and daily pray for my 4 apostate children. 💔💔💔💔

[@brucewilliams4529]

I found it helpful for me and my family. We were involved in a small way. The important thing is our relationship with GOD through His beloved Son Jesus. Outside of that, we ate the chicken but not the bones.'

[@teresasnamesake4784]

I went to a set of talks with my next door neighbor in the early 1980s. He made some important points in his talks that helped me through some difficult times and helped me repair my relationship with my mother in law.

[@judyanderson7020]

There were people in our church who were very into Gothards teachings and the courtship vs. Dating rubbed off on us. We had only one daughter and wanted to do things right. A local Pastor's son from another church took an interest in her, they married and it was a disaster. He was all kinds of abusive except physical. She stayed for 13 years before she finally felt free to leave after there were Biblical grounds. I could write a book now on what parents need to watch for but he was so good at talking the talk. The first call I got of her crying on the phone was the honeymoon. As soon as the vows were taken, and the reception was over, he switched. Neither of their grown children have any contact with him by choice.

[@teresaabernathy460]

What a sad story! But, the root problem was thinking that someone who courts is fraud proof. Whether a person dates or courts there is a chance of connecting with someone who is a fraud. The take away is to vet someone really well no matter who they are.

[@rebekahchalkley3252]

Judy, I am SO sorry to hear of the sorrow your daughter (and you as her parents) walked through! That must have been heart-wrenching for you. I grew up in a family that used Bill Gothard's homeschooling curriculum, so I was surrounded by the teachings on courtship from a young age. I would be curious what you would write if you wrote a book. I have thought for years that the whole courtship movement has damaged countless lives. If you have observations on what parents need to watch for, I feel like that would be incredibly valuable for a lot of people.

[@wawabbit]

What has "courtship" got to do with an abusive man? Answer: nothing. Courtship was used for thousands of years, and "betrothal" as well. That is the time when the FATHER vets the man. It is NOT "courtship" or Gothard that destroyed your daughter's marriage, it was the abusive man, and you all could've done a better job of learning what sort of person he was BEFORE you handed your daughter over to him. There were likely signs prior to the wedding, which would've been highlighted had the FATHER taken time to get with the son-in-law on an ongoing basis to pray with him; instruct him as to what marriage looks like, etc.. Also: Do you somehow not know that Satan wants to destroy our children and families? What responsibility do you as parents take, as to understanding Scriptures warnings to not be deceived; to not be taken in by gainsayers; to he DILIGENT in how you LEAD the family in righteousness and godliness? Why do you feel able to blame an outsider for YOUR failures?? Such is society in this day: Look for anyone ELSE to blame for my own lack of diligence and forthrightness.

[@janellemiddleton9183]

I grew up in & around churches and people who attended Gothard seminars. My parents had previously attended Basic & Advanced, and I attended the Basic in my teens. My dad was a pastor and we homeschooled, but were not ATI. A fellow pastor became more heavily involved in "Gothardism." Our families were very close friends, but as they became more involved in ATI, they became more & more extreme...to the point of even rewriting their church's hymns to remove the "evil of syncopation." After I married & moved away, we lost touch. Years later, the precious, sweet daughter of the family had been courted by the son of another Gothardite family. Less than a year after their marriage, the fellow murdered his wife, who was also newly pregnant. He shot her in the back, staged it to look like a breakin, then went to his job as an EMT. When he returned home, he called 911 to report a breakin & murder. Later he admitted to the crime. Only 19 at the time of the wedding, he had felt pressured into the courtship & marriage by both families. When she got pregnant, he panicked. He felt murder was more acceptable than divorce. (Google Couty Alexander for more of this story). I truly believe my childhood friend would still be alive if it were not for some of these extreme teachings.

[@remonel2354]

In a little over a hour, these 2 gentlemen did a great job of giving an overview of the problems with ATI/IBLP and Bill Gothard. I attended the seminars from middle school through high school. Until a few years ago, I wasn't aware of the sexual scandals and the misuse of ministry money. The question I have, is why didn't the elders in my family discern that Bill Gothard didn't have sound doctrine? Why weren't they aware of the scandal involving his brother? You see, I have family members who are now apart of the "religiously abused": a group of people who want nothing to do with God, faith and religion. So this is a serious matter. Knowing what is truth and what is not truth is immensely important! This YT video was helpful. Thank you!

[@beckysmith6375]

Not to try to put your comment down, but what I heard in this interview were allegations and insinuations. If you could indicate in what part of the interview they shared what the 7 Basic Principles of life are as stated in the textbook for the first seminar, and refuted them with quotes from Scripture, I would be grateful. Or just any quotes from his material, or clips of him teaching which demonstrates the heretical doctrines, I would be delighted to consider that info. Otherwise, it's all allegations and anecdotal stories.

[@terrybain828]

@@beckysmith6375 Many people who eat up Gothard's teaching are just too eager to let someone tell them what the Bible says instead of studying it themselves. Don't make the same mistake and expect someone to tell you what is wrong with Gothard's teaching. Read and study the Bible for yourself and you will soon see for yourself what is wrong.

[@beckysmith6375]

@terrybain828 I HAVE read and studied the Bible for myself for the last 40 years. And I have found much of Gothard's teaching to be helpful. I didn't say I agreed with every bit of his teaching, just that much of it was helpful, and I think of some teachings to this day. One of the main teachings I think about frequently is the teaching on "yeilding rights." Very transformative!

[@joannetompkins7833]

My parents attended a seminar in the 70's. I think they only went the first night. I remember them coming home talking about how "off" the teaching seemed and about how odd it was that this unmarried, childless man was portraying himself as an expert on raising children.

[@heatherjurado3840]

Thank God for your wise, spiritually mature parents. You were spared❤️

[@terryramsey1484]

Yes! We didn’t realize he wasn’t married until years after we first attended but then when I found out, I knew something wasn’t right.

[@goinghomesteady]

The Apostle Paul was such a man.

[@melaniemcbride3894]

Mine did the same, especially my father. He didn't think a single, childless man had all the answers to having a godly marriage and family. I like some of the resources that ATI offered, but I doubt I would have raised my kids the ATI way. Several families around us did and their kids are so different now from when they were younger. Thankfully, those families had godly, kind fathers who were not abusive and domineering. I often thought I should take what God impressed on me from someone's teaching, not necessarily the whole kit and caboodle, so to speak. God bless those who are still recovering.

[@RichardSmith-s4t]

A person who teaches from the Bible can convey truth even though they haven't been in a particular situation. Pastors do that almost every Sunday depending on their sermon topic...

[@williambrowning4842]

Having been through the seminars several times in the 80s and 90s, i benefitted much. The principles are wonderful if taken moderately, including authority. If some took authority too far, I had not been aware of it. Other princples are like the differences between complimentarian an paternalism.

[@dcole6328]

As a new Christian, I was impacted by Gothard, who told me that I had "no time" to get married because I needed to give all my time to God's work. I then steered clear of beaus. I was scheduled to join a campus ministry but gave it up per Gothard. Totally misdirected my life.

[@wawabbit]

Seriously? Why were you putting all your eggs in a teacher's basket? So to speak. It's as if you have no responsibility for your own actions. Strange. Do you do that with all teachers?

[@dcole6328]

@@wawabbit How dare you! Teachers are biblically considered more responsible and legally counselors are, too. Gothard was for youth and young people and led many astray.

[@wawabbit]

​@@dcole6328 How dare I? 😅 YOU are responsible for you. If you took advice from someone, you are STILL responsible for you. NO amount of whining and blaming absolves you of the decisions that YOU made.

[@dcole6328]

@@wawabbit Perhaps you have yet to be born again, as you go out of your way to accuse so many on this of whining and blaming and not taking responsibility. Maybe you are projecting parts of yourself you don't own up to?

[@videbytes]

My first contact with Bill Gothard was when he came to speak in a class at Moody in the 60's. As a new Christian, I was very impressed. A year later I attended his seminar at Detroit Bible College. This was before he was big. There were about 100 in attendance. I went again in the early 80'sat the Long Beach Convention Center in California. I was leaning toward authoritanism at the time, and I didn't see anything wrong with his teaching. I never though much about his teaching until seeing your video today. You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for sharing.

[@Rootude]

Thank you! Great interview! I grew up in this movement and am thankful that errors are being untangled from the truth.

[@iw9338]

Thank you for addressing this 😮😅

[@fabergeartist5273]

My diligence to follow the Bill Gothard teachings on “Authority” ended up putting my life in danger in the military. I had a commander who was totally corrupt and had no good intentions whatsoever, but I remained in submission to his authority until it was almost too late. The teaching that the people in authority over you always have good “basic intentions” kept me from taking steps to protect myself when I should have. It’s a very long and complicated story, but even though I survived, I will bear the consequences of his evil actions as a doctor because he damaged my health for the rest of my life.

[@vgil1278]

I'm so sorry.

[@Truth2ber]

Yes, sir. I think there is a big difference between your scenario and the majority of women whose heavy doses of feminism and Woke ideology cause them to feel “violent injury” when their infantile self-orientation is “wounded.” We screw up women terribly with luxury and pampering in the USA. In fact, there were more attacks on Moses than I have heard in this gossip column. All these slanderers who feel led to be the Inquisitors of the body of Christ should at least pick the direct clear lawlessness that exists in the main stream churches and attack unscriptural teaching directly, with Scripture, rather than rage like spoiled little girls about the authority of their fathers impinging on their self-orientation…or the hair color and shoe lift of the minister… Dark hair, huh…brother, if that isn’t a gnat vs log issue, what is? The modern day western Church looks far more like Diotrephes and Constantine than Jesus and the Apostles…and we hear more about the “mark of the Beast” than the virtual wedding ring SIGN between God and His faithful people! Most reading this have never even heard of a SIGN between God and us: “Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a SIGN between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, YHVH Elohim, sanctify you. 14You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death.” Exodus31:13-14(esv) Do you think I haven’t heard the carnal reasoning that supports that heretical Mt7:23 LAWLESSNESS? For goodness sake, this is the 4th Commandment, a Capital Crime and “above all” according to our soon coming King and Judge who will rule with a rod of iron! (no relaxing of Torah, even as He COMMANDS US NOT TO DO in Mt5:18) INDEED, these are the days of lawlessness and deception…and as the children of those who did NOT take up their cross, but followed Constantine’s heretical prohibition of Sabbath, exchanged with Sun-worship-day (to this pagan day) along with Passover for Ishtar sex god invocation, in 321 AD, we have a lot of Rev22:14 robes to wash if we hope to awaken from the slumber of the casually foolish virgins and the rejection that they were so surprised to receive from Jesus. (!) If you consider yourselves teachers, when did the (Lev26) seven-times punishment of Ephraim-my-firstborn (of the Spirit) who knows Messiah when He returns (Zech10:7 vs 12:10) END? Do the math from Ezekiel4. Millions of Christians were called back to obedience to the Word when Ephraim’s punishment was complete, and of course, the “main stream church of lawlessness and casual virgins” attacked us in much the same way that the Essenes were attacked for keeping Torah closer than the Pharisees and killed or run out of town to live in a desert compound in Qumran that they referred to as Damascus. Did you know that their main argument was over what calendar to use? Trivial, huh? Well, the Essenes were never heard of again after Yeshua came, because THEIR BIBLICALLY CORRECT CALENDAR TOLD THEM EXACTLY WHEN MESSIAH WOULD COME! Yes, the very first Christians were Essenes, the strictest followers of Torah of the three sects of Jews. …not to BE saved, but BECAUSE of Salvation and FOR transformation by obedience to the perfect Law of Liberty. (Psalm19:7, James1:25, Rev14:12)

[@wawabbit]

You didn't listen well. If an authority is saying to do something wrong, you first appeal to them, and you never go along with unbiblical or illegal things.

[@fabergeartist5273]

@@wawabbit, you didn’t read well. It was a military situation. You do not have the option to “appeal” when a direct order is issued. And you do not have the freedom to just leave the situation or to quit. I said it was complicated. It wasn’t as simple as being told to do something wrong. It was an abusive environment. If I had comprehended the malevolence at play, I would have gone to the Inspector General and reported the treatment and the fact that my commander was defying orders from Headquarters for a medical evaluation and he was forcing me to work while I was sick. My senior officer wanted me dead and was hoping I would go AWOL, (absent without leave which is a crime), or kill myself, but I didn’t realize it until the commander explained that she had been trying “to get rid of you for the past month, but you kept showing up for work”. After being in the hospital for a week unable to eat anything and only receiving IV fluids, I was suddenly ordered back to duty to work a 12 hour night shift even though I was still sick. I was ordered, “You WILL act strong, look strong and be strong whether you feel like it or not and if anyone asks you how you are, you WILL say that you are fine.” Nothing in Bill Gothard’s teaching was helpful for my situation. I assure you it was harmful. By the time my commander complied with the orders from Headquarters, he had made himself to be my attending physician, a terrible conflict of interest, and he made false entries in my medical records that put my life in danger. If I had gotten the Inspector General to intervene, he would not have been allowed such access to my care or records. And I haven’t scratched the surface of how difficult and complicated the situation was. Therefore , your assumptions and conclusions are not correct.

[@wawabbit]

​​@@fabergeartist5273 You contradicted yourself. You said you should've taken action, but you didn't "cuz of Bill..." Give it up.😊 Your quote: "...kept me from taking steps to protect myself when I should have."

[@elizabethheaton4286]

Praise the Lord for people like this to uncover and expose deception and lies. Thank you!!!

[@kernelofwheat]

What lies? These men never read one line of text from any of Mr. gatherers teachings. They merely made accusations and false claims; some thing that according to proverbs, God hates such things.

[@1Kiminca]

My youth group went to Basic Youth Conflicts in 1978. My mom really didn’t want me to go. On the way home one evening I had a meltdown and announced to all the kids in the van that Gothard’s Jesus was not the same as my Jesus! Wow, how right I was!

[@MaryLewis-jt5jx]

The opposite happened to me I went to Basic Youth Conflicts in 78' I was a new Christian and his BTC teaching catapulted my theology in a wonderful way. He taught me the Sound principles of obedience not in a legalistic way but in a way I could understand that made sense biblically. God Bless this man in his old age. I did hear that he got off track some subjects like it is sinful to wear a beard???? Yet I believe not to thrown the baby out with the bath water.

[@beckysmith6375]

@MaryLewis-jt5jx thanks for your comment. I don't remember anything in the Basic and Advanced seminars about beards, but I do remember some teachings on styles of music. I pondered that subject for months wondering about it, and looking up references in the Bible. In the end we decided not to worry about the style or beat of the music and just screen out songs with offensive lyrics for our family. So we didn't follow Gothard on the music. It's not an all or nothing deal! Take what's useful to you and leave the rest!

[@beckysmith6375]

@kimqwingert8967, Your comments are interesting, but I and my family had the opposite experience. We were so thrilled that the Lord Jesus had helped us find this helpful seminar! It even helped our friend who attended while she was being treated for cancer. It gave her a deep peace just a few weeks before her death.

[@rayray4192]

@@MaryLewis-jt5jxit was against company policy to have facial hair.

[@rayray4192]

@@beckysmith6375The presentation at the seminars was a facade. Back at headquarters in Oak Brook the organization was dysfunctional and filled with very unhappy employees.

[@elainelight9286]

I attended a Bill Gothard seminar in the early 1980’s so he’s been around longer than you would think. My church rented a bus and we all traveled two hours to attend. I bought Gothard’s children’s books and read them to my kids. Thought I was doing the right thing. Who knew?

[@CelticBearWoman]

I lived in a Jesus house on the West coast in the late 70's. Bill Gothard seminars were required, his detrimental, legalist teachings underpinned our every thought and action and interpretation of Jesus, who is good, undermining our walks with Jesus and others for decades, perhaps even a lifetime.

[@JaynieCollins]

In the mid 80s I attended 6 basic seminars and 2 advanced seminars. For 9 years I homeschooled my 2 daughters, 2 of those years from the ATI. Not for one moment did I ever feel as if I was part of a cult. And I have very strong discernment. Oh, and I am a woman. My now grown daughters will attest that they were never abused, in any fashion. In any environment of authority or someone else's influence, even your Church, you should live your life prayerfully and in obedience to God's Word. There were things within the program that I dismissed, but as a whole it was beneficial in guiding me in my Scriptural approach to life. And, no, I am not a legalist.

[@wawabbit]

❤ Thank you for speaking up.

[@beckysmith6375]

Very similar to our experiences. Our grown sons learned many good skills from the program as a whole. Our oldest son is glad he went through the rigorous Alert program. We are thankful for the IBLP ministry.

[@davehobbs6143]

attended a byc seminar a few times with many other youth...the seminars were very helpful to us teens...

[@concernedspouse8724]

The difference between cattle driver/shepherd = LOVE

[@bruciehibma6498]

I remember going to the seminars, I was always upset while I was going but the folks I went with were upset with me for having apposing views. I always felt he used a good approach to get his point across and pilling folks into the teaching. You would leave and wonder if you were wrong or were you about ready to be taken in. The authority issue was significant because I saw it in a number of churches I went to . Not a church hopper but involved in ministries so I was able to see much. A couple churches I attended had agape force and wywam involved deeply and their expectation of obedience was extreme. To many of those out there and once folks are trapped in the system its difficult to see the truth. Discernment was so important and still is.

[@bruciehibma6498]

I would not mind talking I am not on Telegram. Suggest a way please.

[@sdlorah6450]

I have heard people use Proverbs 31 to justify a woman having a career--leaving her dependent children in the care of others (often strangers, for pay). Yes, a woman's tasks are varied according to this chapter, but she does not neglect her family. Consider other verses that describe a woman's roles as wife and mother (Titus 2:3-5, Psalm 113:9, 1 Timothy 5:14) and the descriptives of the lives lived by widows taken in the count in 1 Timothy 5:9-10.

[@RodneyKoop]

My pastor told my in 1973 as I was headed off to California Lutheran Bible School in Los Angelos, "you can learn from many people, books, seminars and etc. just be discerning because no one person has the total truth." However I see so many nay sayers throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and getting nothing for their efforts except more pride. :)

[@KristinA-nc8my]

The Proverbs 31 woman did those things spread out over the course of her life. People stretch this out to seem she did them all when her kids were young. When they likely were in phases. The church and marriages would be better off if more mothers prioritized their kids in the early years and took a more phased approach to everything else.

[@terryramsey1484]

My husband and I went to a seminar of Bill Gothard in 1976. It was a month before my husband and I were getting married . Our pastor and his wife and my parents and about 2 bus loads of people from our church attended. My husband wasn’t enamored with Bill so we didn’t get involved. But we knew many that did.

[@miriamgebb3100]

Wondering...I agree with Becky S as there are many positive things, especially at the beginning. I appreciate the teaching on spiritual gifts. Later on I went and was very uneasy-couldn't put my finger on it exactly, but realized when things hit the fan. What I am wondering is about the organization as it stands now...the present leaders are in a good position or not?

[@edeancozzens3833]

When the spirit of the age is self will and rebellion no one wants to be told differently.

[@maryunderwood9641]

That's why Jesus Christ died, was buried and arose from the dead according to the Scriptures, He is the Savior of the world who died for ALL sinners. Sin began in the garden of Eden, not in this age.

[@John-Christchurch-NZ]

My wife and I attended a Bill Gothard seminar many years ago while homeschooling and rejected it as being to legalistic

[@wawabbit]

I wonder if you find the bible too legalistic.

[@leroypeachey9355]

Mr Gothard was used greatly in my life in countless ways. I will always thank God for the opportunity of going to the seminars. 52 years later in my life I am blessed. His teaching is not miss leading. No one is forced by Bill. I would suggest you are jealous of how God has blessed the ministry. I have children who have bought into your self righteous gibberish. They have have allergies and panic attacks. One rejected the teaching married a college intellectual. Today they are divorced. She doesn’t go to church. And is an advocate of socialism. May the Lord awaken you to what you are doing before you meet the Lord. Ron and Don

[@wawabbit]

Most don't have a clue what is actually happening on a global scale, nor in the spiritual realm. They lack foresight, and spend most of their time navel gazing, per society's constant barrage of propaganda via "influencers." (Whether it be KZbin, TikTok, or the daily "news.") I was thinking of all of this last night, and it hit me how when each of these people stands before the Lord - alone - they will not have anyone to blame then, for their rebellion and rejection of the truths in the word of God.

[@michaelwilson9849]

I attended both the Gothard Basic & Advanced courses, twice & God used it skyrocketed my faith & spiritual life. The practical Biblical principles I learned there God used to strengthen my faith & spiritual maturity. What a blessing those courses were to my Christian life. Can’t agree with your opinion.

[@wawabbit]

I've been blessed by most of the people I've listened to who are involved with the ministry, ( prior to it being taken over) These people act like one man ran everything. As if. Anyway, we who know the truth can rest in the knowledge that God is still using the ministry to draw us closer to himself.

[@SusanNemmers]

My ex husband and I attended this seminar and bought all the books… my then husband took his teaching to the limit… he became emotionally abusive all while living his double life. As I have revisited his teaching and heard about his double life he got the total ick factor. Satan loves this.

[@vgil1278]

I wonder if I'm the only one bothered with how loud the music between segments is. I have my sound turned up to be able to hear the soft spoken guests and Alisa and then that comes on and just about scares me to death. If anyone else is bothered too, maybe Alisa's sound engineer could set the volume lower. Anyone?

[@janetpayne6092]

Yes!!! Same exact thing here!😅

[@jeepssnow9506]

Sound is horrifically loud @ each of Alisa’s commercial break while wearing hearing aids!! Help

[@JohnnyJohnnyG]

Absolutely--made me jump each time that logo music came crashing in. Video editor, please take note!

[@longstreet2740]

Went to Bill Gothard seminar in 1980s. Never sensed a 'cultic' spirit being that I was being vexed by other groups (from Oneness Pentecostals to Hyper Calvinists) . Gothards view on simple Faith alone Salvation comforted me.

[@rpireland6131]

Scripture Memorization was one of the many lessons that supported my Methodism upbringing.

[@beckysmith6375]

I agree - the ambiance was one of serious Christians seeking to not just know the Word of God, but apply it more effectively. I can attest that the seminars turned me away from a rebellious track I was on in the late 70's. So many others were helped by applying the 7 basic biblical principles. There's another side of this story which should be told!

[@reesecop]

​@beckysmith6375 He was unmarried and childless teaching on married life and raising children. 🤔 Yeah, no thanks.

[@beckysmith6375]

@reesecop Sorry to contradict you, but he was teaching what the Bible said about marriage and children. His seminars contained more Bible references than any other conference I've attended. Jesus taught about marriage and children, too, and he was single.

[@heatherjurado3840]

Legalism & tradition can seem comforting for a time because I think it provides a sense of control, but at the end of the day it leads to much personal turmoil, doubt, insecurities. Did I do enough, did I follow all the rules ...The truth of the Word of God is enough to bring peace, structure, comfort ....whatever our need is. God's grace is sufficient for our salvation & everything else. Really studying the Word of God personally, asking God to continue to give us understanding & honestly growing closer to Him will give you true joy, peace & freedom.❤

[@annap62407]

Thank you so much for exposing these false teachings. I’m working through untangling some of the Bill Gothard teachings that made their way into the southern Baptist church when I was growing up

[@edwinniles8539]

Very informative indeed. I too, attended a few of his seminars, but that was in the 70 tees. Didn't know anything else about him. His teachings echoed very biblical. Always reference the word of God - the Bible!

[@laurabennett2420]

I went to the basic youth conflicts in June of 1977 and went with my friend and our moms and there was a lot I liked but some stuff I felt was wrong 🚩 red flags goin up but the Lord used some of the teaching on forgiveness & bitterness which was really good & helped my mom especially

[@beckysmith6375]

Could you please share what the "red flags" were specifically? I also benefitted from the teachings on forgiving people and not being bitter. Do you remember how he encouraged those in the audience to call people who they had hurt or wronged, and ask for forgiveness of that person? I asked my dad to forgive me for being stubborn and not listening to him and my mom. It changed our family for the better!

[@williamsnover5277]

It is good to be warned about the dangers of incorrect teaching and its consequences. It seems we have kind of gone from worshipping Bill Gothard to demonizing him. A good middle ground might be a theological compendium on where his teachings were unbiblical and where they were biblical. Where his life was biblical and unbiblical. There are things he did which may deserve respect. I guess I was not a devout and complete follower to the point I was harmed terribly. Anyway it is helpful to realize there are dangers to be aware of. A lot of it seems over my head. Wish I could meet those gentlemen.

[@catinthewater7969]

I heard the umbrella illustration as a homeschooler. I didn’t realize that’s where it came from until I heard Jinger Vuolo talking about it.

[@debbiedueck7162]

Great interview! I went to IBYC 2 times in Seattle. He was a very charismatic communicator. You could hear a pin drop in the Seattle Coliseum with thousands in attendance. His view of authority was somewhat bothersome. I’m sooo glad I did not purchase his homeschooling curriculum when I was choosing curriculum for my kids…

[@debbiedueck7162]

This is all very disturbing and I pray for all those who’ve walked away from the faith over this…. 😢

[@tvdb5299]

I met a couple about 1987 who were considering joining ibyc. She explained it all to me but thankfully I wasn't hooked. Even so, I was married into an abusive / authoritarian Christian family which I eventually escaped from 38 years later. Authoritarianism and mysogyny were hand in hand ...

[@Momoften2011]

From Canada...we almost did! But we couldn't get the finances to travel to the HQ...​@@tvdb5299

[@loveycat5474]

I attended the Basic Youth Conflicts in the 1970s starting at age 12. Somehow my parents got me into the adult course. I could tell right away the teachings that were not right just because it did not feel right. The only things I got out of it was the self esteem and praying for your enemies. I attended each year until 1981 when I started attending Bible college and working part time at Disneyland. My father attended the seminar with the idea of learning about biblical relationships. But my father being a former atheist took most of it with a grain of salt. My father did a lot of research and evaluating the teachings against scripture. We attended each year but we did not follow all the ideas. I still ware pants, listen to rock music, attended public school and attended college. I dad did believe in allowing children to be children and allowed a area of challenging authority in teenagers. He was actually was worried about me when I was not going through a teenage rebellion. I started going through it in college. All us girls moved out of the house in our 20s. We all dated boys and my parents allowed it to happen. All use kids stopped attending when we got in college. My dad and mom attended for some more years. They stop attending when it changed to Basic life Principles. I was never told why. My dad never liked being involved in non biblical ideas or controlling groups.

[@sandraturner7376]

If you are grounded in Christ, He will be your foundation in all truth and righteousness.I have always been led by the Holy Spirit of God.

[@nccrchurchunusual]

I choose to love the Lord with all my heart, mind, soul & strength- to the best of my ability. I have been Christian for decades- reading & learning the Bible. I think it imperative to learn about, contemplate, and embrace the Lifechanging, Love & Grace the Lord has for ME, personally. Simple but not.

[@jeffrogers4251]

I went to one of those conferences at a large arena, around 1983. Have not heard or thought of this in years!

[@vanitamann7985]

This definitely is bringing back some memories. One in particular was when I got very sick. I was told that I had sin in my life that I had not confessed, that I was out from under the umbrella of protection. I had attended 9 or 10 of these seminars in Houston, TX in the mid to late 80's and early 90's.

[@wawabbit]

Who "told" you that? Are you implying that illness can never be due to sin? The bible says otherwise, of course. Not that ALL illness is because of sin, though God showed how in Scripture he can bring consequences for our sin, including illness. A friend was diagnosed with Hodgkin's, and she called Gothard. He asked the same question, only the whole question was: Do you think rhe illness is due to unconfessed sin or some other reason? (Something close to that.) He also taught about nutrition don't forget. Bad nutrition is one of the biggest reasons for poor health. Stress, too, takes a huge hit on the human body. I just think it's a good idea to look at things from all angles. Illness doesn't just happen. No one "catches" illness. Though medications, including "vaccines" can definitely cause all sorts of illness. I hope you recovered well.

[@vanitamann7985]

@@wawabbit What had happened to me was that, about 25 years ago, I was in the backyard practicing soccer with our daughter. I fell and experienced tremendous pain. I went to the Dr. and was diagnosed with sever fibromyalgia. About 2 years ago I had to go to a different Dr. since mine had retired. This Dr. scheduled an MRI and found out that I had very severe spinal stenosis. I had back surgery within a couple of months of being diagnosed with that and have done very well since then. My well-meaning sister in Christ who told me that I had unconfessed sin was wrong after all. I agree that it's important to have good nutrition, lower your stress, pray without ceasing, etc. But, sometimes, while living in this fallen world our body will not hold up to everything that's happened to us and it isn't always because we have unconfessed sin. Yes, I have recovered well.

[@ivanigreppi]

Excellent interview! Spiritual deception comes in many forms, “for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.” Looking forward to reading A Matter of Basic Principles. Thank you!

[@bevp7838]

I left a “solid” church when I started to realize that they were using a lot of the popular ‘current’ books as a basis for Bible study. I thank God for opening my eyes. One author’s statements frequently made me stop and think “huh?”, but when I raised my questions in the group, the rest of them couldn’t seem to understand why I raised the question. I am currently following several people online ( health issues) and feel like I am getting solid teaching. These guys use only scripture to explain scripture.

[@scgrandma8773]

As a pretty new believer went to his seminars at least twice in the late 70s. Bought what he said at the time. Still remember the umbrella teaching. Glad we used other materials for home schooling our kids.

[@elainecheatwood5835]

Neither would I have ever thought. I'd be part of something like that. , but in a non denominational church .But it can gradually creep up on you. Two of my three children have recovered from our experiences and I pray for the one still hurting and wounded.❤❤❤. Fear kept me there. Thank you for this broadcast and speaking up.

[@wawabbit]

What you brought into your family was YOUR fault, not some guy who simply taught bible principles. You were the parents, not Gothard.

[@erindepaz771]

I’ve known some people who followed him. Glad there are people calling out the deception and abuse of authority.

[@blchamblisscscp8476]

I was involved in a campus ministry like Campus Crusade, but not that one. This was early to mid 1980s. There was a young girl, one of my friends. She had said that.her dad would not permit her even as a college student to go on a date with any boy unless he had gone through the Goddard seminars. Everything you have said would have described my friend's actions and beliefs. I didnt know enough at the time to question it, but the whole proposition did seem strange to me then.

[@quietday2]

Likewise, I attended one of the huge seminars in the 1970s in San Antonio. I think it was just a video of him teaching because he was so popular that he couldn’t make it to all the seminars in person. Many of my friends were under Gothard’s influence, having baby after baby and struggling to provide basic financial care for large families. Fortunately, I only had 3 children, and never got into the homeschooling side of it. We moved to another area of Texas, losing the influence of Gothard, and actually LIVING LIFE.

[@amybee40]

Ever since my first (of 2) Gothard seminars as a teen, I have though his definition of GRACE to be the most sensible and Biblically based definition of it that I've ever heard. He gave PLENTY of Scripture to back it up. And I've had 40 years since then to check that Scripture and to contrast his definition with others. Probably that, and his definition of modesty, have stuck with me more than anything else. ("Dress to draw attention to your face." Succinct and practical, and not more burdensome to women than to men. Also rules out burkas! Nice.)

[@claycasassa4757]

"For by 'the power and desire to do God's will' are you saved, through faith. 'The power and desire to do God's will' is the gift of God, and not of works, lest we should boast." Make it make sense.

[@amybee40]

@@claycasassa4757 We are born with a desire to sin, so the desire to do God's will has to be a gift from Him. This is imparted first through the hearing of the Gospel. Romans 10:14 "How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard..." and from then on, reading and hearing Scripture generally. The power to do His will comes from the Holy Spirit, once we have faith. Romans 8:6 "The mind set on the Spirit is life and peace..." All faith is is trust that God is who He says and will do what He says. Salvation is not only justification, but also sanctification and glorification. I guess that Gothard's definition applies best to the sanctification part. Which after all, is the part that we as Christians live in from day to day.

[@claycasassa4757]

@@amybee40 If Gothard had taught all of that, it would have been great. But he didn't. As Veinot points out, that's not what grace is.

[@amybee40]

@@claycasassa4757 He did though. He made a very strong Biblical case for his definition.

[@rayray4192]

The Bill- ism I still like wad about deference. “ Limiting my personal liberty so that I may not offend another.”

[@benyaeger4388]

Alisa, what skin care products do you use? Eating habit routine?

[@globalwarninguk]

The teaching being explained here is what used to be called the heavy shepheatding movement. Out of which comes dominionism and kingdom now now called the 7 mountains movement.

[@Mike65809]

Gothard does teach submission to authority, but he also teaches the ability to make a godly appeal.

[@breezybird403]

I was born into a christian church and family. I acted out with rebellious teenager behavior and was about 19 when I attended The Institute in Basic Youth Conflict. I wanted to straighten out, and it seemed to help at the time. My fiance, now husband also attended. Our church promoted the conference. I remember telling a more secular uncle about it. He explained that he had gone to conferences such as that, referring to it as more of a motivational seminar. I wish I gave myself more time before marrying and having children. Now I think I needed more time to sort through my beliefs. I heard Gothard had an affair with his assistant and was shamed out of his ministry. Gossip?

[@johndibert5509]

Well not sure affair is right but he did appear to have a foot fetish

[@kathleenhildebrand5356]

Do you know anything about their Mens military training center in TX?

[@roblangsdorf8758]

I attended the IBYC presentation in Long Beach about 1972. A group of us were so impressed that we formed a San Diego committee to bring the seminar to San Diego. After several years we were invited to join the Los Angeles committee in a phone call to Bill about recent reports about his brother's activities in the north woods. One of the members of the LA committee had a daughter who was working at the Oak Brook office. Through him we learned that Bill would come into the office in the morning and gradually become convinced that something needed to be done about his brother. Then he would go home to his father, who would convince him that the women were the problems. After some of this the majority of us on the 2 Southern California committees resigned. As far as I can tell Bill never made the needed changes. It sounds like he continued to get worse.

[@wawabbit]

Women can't be "a problem?" Why does the bible warn men to stay away from certain types of women? Hmmm. Not saying the brother wasn't a horn dog, but why instantly believe that the guy is always the instigator or "the problem?" In the end of things, it's just silly to throw away one man's ideas because of his brother's sin. We are ALL sinners. Edit: As far as you can tell?? Have you read all of the court documents? Gothards statements? I have. Maybe think about not jumping on bandwagons if you don't have the whole picture.

[@roblangsdorf8758]

@@wawabbit Were you involved with IBYC 50 years ago? If not, you may have missed out on what happened then.

[@MiMijakam]

So pretty! Love your dress, Lacey❤

[@amybee40]

Any man who gets married in his 20's has a LOT to learn about leadership. Christian wives follow the leading of their husbands out of duty to Christ, don't kid yourselves, men. You are super lucky if you have a wife who will do this while you stumble along, learning how to lead.

[@normanwagemann2673]

I'm with Shelly White below. Found the Biblical principles taught to be relevant to real life, but I understand the resistance and how the emphasis is to demean the person, which is easier than taking a deep dive into the textual context of the scriptures being referenced. I thought the comment that "someone can take a teaching and misapply it" to justify a particular action/belief. This is why the Apostle Paul commended the Bereans. We need to individually be faithful to scripture and not be followers of any man. The authority issue always comes up and your limited critique (the centurion example) is not convincing in a fuller understanding relative to your "complementarian" discussion. One final point, I never heard Gothard give the definition of "grace" you attribute to him. I do thank you for going directly to him to discuss your concerns. This is how it should be done and it would be interesting to see whether Ms Childers would invite Bill Gothard on to defend himself.

[@terrybain828]

I disagree with you. The Bible teaches us to be modest. Bill Gothard tells everyone what that looks like according to him. People in his organization and IBLP alumni who regularly attend his seminars, adhere to his teaching and comply with his rules of how to dress and do your hair etc in order to be accepted by others in this cult. Stop following man-made rules that are supported by either twisting scripture or taking it out of context and learn the Word of God for yourself. This is what always happens when you idolize a mere man.

[@normanwagemann2673]

What part of "We need to individually be faithful to scripture and not be followers of any man. " Did you miss in my comment you have replied to? The total rejection of the seminar teaching based upon disagreement with some part of it is apropos to throwing our the baby with the bath water.

[@nopalciny8476]

Good talk! Yes this is a prevelent teaching outside of BG too unfortunately 😢

[@barbaramoyer134]

My husband and I were given information from Bill Gothard when we were going through infertility saying that we weren’t getting pregnant because we had “music with a rock beat” in our house😳 I was furious. I gave the material back to the man that gave it to us and told him how unbiblical and hurtful it was and to NEVER give that to any other couple struggling with infertility!! Ironically, he was a single man himself and never married because he was told it was wrong by Gothard material that it was sinful to feel sexually attracted to a woman he was dating, so he broke it off!! So twisted and destructive to so many lives!!

[@Big_RegC]

I remember as a teen going to a couple Of conferences with our church…when he talked bout music and how “beats and rhythm ” could drive one to sin I tuned out. Black Gospel music was prevalent in our house and didn’t fit the “criteria” gothard was spouting. The fact that he told us what “real music” was bothered me… I went to my first Earth Wind and Fire concert that next week and STILL love the Lord to this day 🤷🏾‍♂️ *The Mystical Elemental connotation of EW&F did not affect my salvation 🥰

[@beckysmith6375]

@reggie_redux I liked classic rock as a twenty something, and I did ponder whether I should give up my rock n roll. I searched the Bible and didn't find anything specifically about that, so I decided to just listen to music with decent lyrics and not to follow Gothard on that point. I think it should be stressed that when music changed in the 50's and especially 60's, many older church goers considered rock and roll the "devils music." My grandmother sure did. That was hardly a teaching invented by Gothard. I can happily say many of his other Bible teachings have helped me immensely. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water...

[@rayray4192]

@@Big_RegCgood for you. Bill had a stick shoved pretty far up his ass.

[@rosemaryrojahn584]

Haven't even listened yet but can't wait to hear this. Going through authority in my own church or what used to be my church. People are being led astray due to wrong teaching on the subject of submission. Thank you for this guys.

[@Lu3305]

Great interview. It would be helpful to put the books mentioned in the description or comments. I listened back through and couldn't find the spot where the one on Biblical Womanhood is mentioned. There are several out there and I don't want to be misled. I think the one is Recovering from Biblical Manhood & Womanhood, but I'm not sure :/ Thanks for the presentation.

[@edeancozzens3833]

I loved many of the teachings and still see them as vsluable and useful but i never took the teachings to a cult level. One can listen and learn from without taking ideas to an extreme. Satan is a pendulum pusher.

[@rayray4192]

The Character Sketches books were excellent. Beautiful art work and excellent biblical principles from the animal kingdom and nature.

[@NancyBrown-r8e]

I agree either way limit - the first comment. This is a misconception of Bill Gothard. Until you thoroughly research him and his teachings - you should not be reporting negatively about him. Some people who have gone thru his program have disagreed because it’s radical - the most excellent standard of the Bible teachings and they refuse to live that way. Bill is not perfect but has done more for the Church in our generation than most. I have met him. He’s a well-meaning Christian man.

[@coloradoguy1109]

I wonder if he was related to David Gothard, who was an active Royal Ranger before his passing. I only ask because Ive always wondered if there was a link between the occult and the Royal Rangers ministry which I also was part of

[@meg_prescott]

I was sucked into Gothardism in my early 20s as a relatively new Christian. I soaked it up like a sponge. It took a loooong time and a lot of deprogramming to disentangle from this teaching. I have so many friends from that same time that have denounced their faith, having been raised in this false gospel of legalism. I'm thankful that I wasn't raised in it, but it still did lots of damage.

[@stacybrinkley7551]

This was a great episode but I think a part 2 would be super helpful, to go into more detail of what you all discussed at the end-the warning signals and red flags of what to look for and listen for now.

[@kernelofwheat]

This was was a great episode if you love defrauding another brother. Notice in the whole episode NOT ONE SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE WAS PRESENTED BY EITHER MAN!! But buy our book! 😂

[@wawabbit]

@@kernelofwheat Yes, people who glom onto these types of so-called exposers don't seem to care about actual truth.

[@terrybain828]

@@kernelofwheat You are not correct. They did present how some scriptures were twisted to be used to support Gothard's teaching.

[@kernelofwheat]

@@terrybain828 you’re just as much a liar as they are!

[@consi1801]

Very similar to the Shepherding movement (Bob Mumford). Our former Abbot Loop-affiliated church had a shepherding model, and they were influenced by and recommended Bill Gothard's seminars.

[@carriestout6422]

That was a good episode. I repented of believing that enneagram.

[@1749484]

I went to BYC twice and the advanced form of that conference. I was thinking through his teachings, they had a lot of truth to them, but was alerted to the issues when the Wittenberg Door, a Christian satire magazine, commented on the need for Gothard to read Galatians.

[@Bobbychildree]

Mr. Gothard memorized Galatians as well as Colossians, Ephesians, Romans, John and other entire books. His real problem according to Churchianity was that he actually believed and lived the principles found in them. You must remember, the modern church rejects Matthew 5:17 and as Peter says, twist the words of Paul. Bad outcome for the souls of men on judgement day. Gothard had it right. You do recall what happened to Jesus and his disciples for having it right, do you not?

[@reesecop]

​@Bobbychildree 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Good one!! You're Hilarious!

[@1749484]

@@Bobbychildree What I picked up from Mr. Gothard and Dawson Trotman was Scripture memorization and seriousness of following Jesus. What I had to set aside was all the legalism that was required to be a good Christian. I believe God used BYC in my life at a crucial time...PBPWMGINFWMY...Only those who went to BYC will understand those letters.

[@Bobbychildree]

@@1749484 That’s the perfect response, thank you. You went right to the heart of the matter. Gothard turned my life from legalism to love, for which I am forever grateful. Others apparently thought they had to turn TO legalism, but I never got that from his teachings. But we are supposed to test everything and might let the enemy slip some error in if we are not vigilant in our own heart. I’m 80 and PBP still applies! Blessings

[@kevink9938]

@@Bobbychildree if bill had such exhaustive knowledge of those scriptures then he should have taught them instead of the imaginary myths in his own mind.

[@donnafronl8483]

Great interview! Answered lots of questions!

[@kimberlyax9645]

Really enjoyed.. think church really needs to understand how these “cults” can start that it is possible for them to exist and loved warnings. Or guidelines to look for.. very good thank you all

[@ruthstorkel9627]

Bill Gothard was NOT a cult. He was used by God to help many people.

[@kernelofwheat]

Cult is when you have three people indoctrinating an audience with opinions and no biblical evidence!

[@kimberlyax9645]

@UCDyqtCmj6Jn9GzRUO-A0bbw Hi Alisa, I have telegram, do not use it much. So bear with me if I get wrong. I use telegram mainly to follow Amir Tsarfti

[@terrybain828]

@@ruthstorkel9627 Many people were helped by Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen, but that doesn't mean their teaching is sound. Bill Gothard may have helped some people, but strict adherence to his teaching also hurt many people and only God knows if he hurt more than he helped. The thing that makes Gothard's IBLP more than just bad teaching and more like a cult is the fact that his followers trust his interpretations of the Bible more than they trust the Bible itself.

[@leighburville2717]

What is ATI? And where was it held? I attended something in the early 1970s called "Lifespring" and it was a lifesaver for a lot of us 18 to 40 year olds going through troubling relationships. Back in thosr days, there was nothing helpful for tormented middle-Americans. It hped us heal and gave us tools to seek emotionally safe situations and help ourselves and others rise above our present habits that kept us losers. It also led me to find a great Godly church. But then again there was also Landmark seminars and Warner Erhards EST and ; so then what was ATI?

[@rineneff1272]

I think ATI stands for advanced training institute. I never went to ATI but I did go to the basic seminar in 1974. ATI would have been the next level of training. The basic seminar seemed good at first but it realy is false teaching compared to actual biblical truth.

[@waldensmith4796]

A very educational show Alisa on Bill Gothard teachings also complementarism on marriage the roles of men and women in marriage. Keep up the good work Alisa.

[@timmellin2815]

Upon the guy's re-explanation of grace: "the ability & power to do His will joyfully." Remember the Julie Andrews' line from Sound of Music when she is confessing her issues to the Mother Superior, and they discuss God's plan: "to know the will of God and to do it whole heartedly." ? Sounds like this might be a Catholic definition of grace, moreso than the Protestant definition of "unmerited favor."

[@Priscilla_Bettis]

This was eye-opening. Thank you.

[@Vance-sn7ei]

My dad and I went to the seminars in the early 80's. One of the most harmful sayings was that if a girl was raped, it was only her body and this is how they told women to deal with it. What a horrendous thing to say to anyone. I don understand some of the people who comment how great he is. His ministry was rotten from the time he had the retreat center. There are a few pictures and testimony that he was not appropriate with the females. When you mix partial truth with falsity, many people cannot discern.

[@RobertHallettDC]

This hit on Gothard has a bit of a political feel and look to it... or sell a book. I listened to this whole podcast and did not come away with much.

[@robertjohnson2581]

I usually like to listen but frankly to much of this is messed up. Christ is the head of the Church and the head of man. The man is the head of the women. That is biblical. That being said it teaches that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the Church and gave his life for it. Don’t know who you are talking about but you need to be careful not deny what’s in the word. Where is the Holy Spirit in all this. Maybe people should read and pray and ask God for help. We don’t need more books. Read the Bible. Most abuse is not done by Christian men. This does not sound right. It comes across as the Christian way is causing the problem. It just isn’t true.

[@rpireland6131]

I dislike listening so I just unsubscribed! I don't think they understand that Satan can borrow our mouths. Yes people should pray but this is "Diablos" public accusations.

[@anahuron6440]

Amen!

[@sherylj586]

You are very mistaken. Abuse in Christian homes is on a par with the culture at large. Unfortunately many in conservative churches use verses about "headship" as an excuse to oppress. Jesus said that His kingdom will be known by love for, and serving one another. So the head of the home is to be the head servant. Abuse is not just physical. Coercive control/ oppression is alive and well in many, many Christian families.

[@timothyaure9602]

My wife and I were involved In Gothards BYC and home school program. I'd say he was basically out of balance especially on his authority teachings but also other areas in retrospect. He'd take a piece of paper and crease it in half, then to justify his extreme perspective, he'd say he had to crease it opposite in order to make it stand up straight. I'd say both extremes were wrong. The Reformation and the American Revolution were contrary to Gothard. He was out of balance and reactory to the 60's chaos that were then common in 60's and 70's. I've had to rethink Gothards influence in my life and I'd say it was truth out of balance and I was hurt tremendously trying to live out his dictatorial precepts.😢

[@erinhuffman8713]

I sat with a group of girls in my teenage friend's living room, and we listened to her explain that her father had asked her to marry a man she didn't love. She was praying desperately that God would help her to like her future husband since her father said their marriage was God's will. That same evening, the future husband called and monopolized her evening with a 4-hour phone call, even though he knew she was hosting friends at her home. Since she was engaged, it was her duty to begin practicing submission to him and he wanted to talk for 4 hours. She married him, but the marriage did not last. The fruit of Gothardism. Just one story among many I could tell.

[@pete3261]

Love this interview, I just wish a bit that Dan's mic had done a clearer job bringing his voice out.Probably using dated recording material. Will definitely buy that book.

[@raybishop4233]

I'm neither for or against this man. I've heard the name but I learnt years ago, not to follow people. It's interesting to me that today, as in politics and the rest of the world, we spend time and money making shows taking churches, pastors and teachers apart. It must break God's heart! None of us are perfect! But God knows each heart!! We're in the end times and the last thing we need is to display to the world over the internet, how critical we Christians are of each other. Watching these shows must confuse many hope-seeking people! Time is very short. If we could just focus on sharing God's Word with compassion and urgency! Just like Jesus did!

[@elaineferguson6525]

How very sad that we SO often listen to, then believe whatever we hear, without finding out if it is true!!! Even people who we trust and respect can be lying to us when they have "swallowed" lies from those who they trust and respect!😳 And, so it spreads far and wide! 😢😭😭 The father of lies is having a hay-day!

[@normandennis9420]

I went to the basic seminar 3x And the advanced seminar once. I didn't find the things like these men are saying? Did they attend the basic seminar? I think not. I still use some of the material from the seminar? To follow his teachings was difficult but mostly biblical. Definitely not a cult. Eternity will reveal the truth.

[@John-Christchurch-NZ]

One thing I have always found is "I don't like to be told" Could be seen as being rebellious and unteachable but it has stood me in good stead over the years in recognizing cults.

[@user-jw4oy8gf7z]

THis is excellent.