The "Smash Bros Killers"

[@AstralKat]

Thank so much for watching everyone, what do you think of the smash bros "killers"?

[@TramiNguyen-oi3kp]

Awesome video!

[@donutfromfraymakers]

the reason why they didn't build off of SSF2 for fraymakers is: flash was discontinued 4 years ago and caps out at 30fps, by making a new engine they could make workshop work natively and stuff like that, fray has a different feel from ssf2 because it was a game design choice, and the sprites were made more detailed to make workshop content fit in well.

[@HonaJonah]

wasn't the main problem with the workshop how tedious trying to mimic absurdly complex art style of fraymakers is??

[@donutfromfraymakers]

@@HonaJonah the large sprites benefit workshop by making sprite rips look better, its only a problem if you want do fray style stuff and yeah its hard

[@fryguy9704]

When it comes to these “Smash” killers, I’ve only ever really played Nick all star brawl 2 and it was really fun and was able to be unique enough to stand out above the crowd. And besides, I’m a sucker for licensed/3rd party games

[@Tichampi]

8:30 As someone that played a lot of SSF2 and dropped the game over Fraymakers, I'll try to respond to your question: "Why didn't you use SSF2 engine, or as a base, for Fraymakers?" There are a few reasons to that: - First, the engine as you said, isn't "perfect" unfortunately lol. It's full of bugs. But its not a surprise nor their fault! SSF2 has been in the work for over 10 years, by different people, with different programming. While still being a fan-game with 0 profit! But patching all of those bugs would take more time than making a new engine entirely. - The 2nd reason is that SSF2 can exist because its entirely non-profit. If they just used the SSF2 engine for Fraymakers, Nintendo or any other greedy corporation whose IP is used in SSF2, could have took SSF2 down, since it was partly used for profit. This is a *could*, but honestly with these corporations, better be safe than sorry. - The 3rd reason is linked to the 2nd one. How do you make a game using SSF2, that resembles SSF2, but has content creation, a better online and a possibility of professional gaming, without killing SSF2? Both games had to be relevant without correlation with each others (like how SSF2 devs and Fraymakers devs are different teams), so they couldn't make "SSF3". - The final reason is that they needed to have a good engine for content creation. They needed to make it simple yet fun and open for creators. If Fraymakers had a bad engine, content creation (and the game) would have died long ago. And finally, it is. Fraymakers actually takes a lot about SSF2 engine :^) Most mechanics are the same, the physics are practically the same, the camera is the same... you can even find SSF2 engine bugs in Fraymakers lol. But they had to make it different from SSF2 for all these reasons above. Characters sprites are bigger than SSF2 so the movement is slower and the stage is smaller, it had to be fun for content creation, not overshadow SSF2 and make it a professional engine for business purposes.

[@darth124]

Not talking about Brawlhala is wild. A lotta people hated on it for being a smash clone when it came out but the gameplay is so unique and extremely fun imo. Its also super successful.

[@AstralKat]

I played Brawlhala for a bit and it never clicked with me, I also dont think its anywhere close to being a smash clone, the only thing I genuinely do give Brawlhala credit for outside of its great crossovers is how they handle tournaments

[@darth124]

@@AstralKat wild how back in the day people didn’t think it was different enough from smash.

[@AstralKat]

really, huh. I never once heard it being called a smash clone, I heard people say it was a fun game but never any direct smash comparisons

[@darth124]

@@AstralKat idk, back in like 2018 I remember anytime I said I liked it there was always someone who’d say “why not just play smash?” Or something like that. Granted they probably never even tried the game.

[@HonaJonah]

I found this to be a very good video as you focused on the positives just as much as the negatives (if not more), like said how good something is but what it has holding it back rather than expressing how doomed the games are with a side of what it's good at (something that I've seen a lot of platfighters get described by) Although I'm a little let down you didn't explain HOW high quality the rivals mods can be, because there's stupid dumb ones made in minutes and then character that had been in development for LITERAL YEARS to ensure quality, coming from a rivals modder myself it's very often put aside how much talent people put into some mods that are talked less than a sprite rip character made in a day or two... but I very much appreciate it being praised

[@AstralKat]

I definitely prefer to focus more on positives than negatives, Negativity really just doesn't suit my style as I've learnt over the last few years of taking this job seriously, as for the Rivals modding thing, I'm so glad you take so much time to contribute to one of the best indie communities on the steam workshop, thank you for your dedication and passion that you put in to your projects! The only reason I didn't specifically talk about them is because I've done a dedicated Rivals video in the past where I went into much more detail about them, it's old and a little outdated (mostly because I released it before I came out as trans lol) but I did commend the insane amount of work modders put in to their projects during that video, and I absolutely plan to discuss it when I talk about Rivals 2 later this year!

[@jordonthecookie]

Coming back to your channel after a under estimate time I wasn't expecting a whole transition

[@maxkozeal5195]

I think the opposite about the rivals 2 mods I think it would be even better to move over to 3d for mods for a few reasons 1. Ported characters from other games like smash and slap city will be a ton easier and cleaner because the models and animations are already there. 2. Models made for one thing can be turned into a brand new character, like maybe a custom vrchat avatar could transfer over to rivals 2. 3. There are still going to be a lot of modders that are new and are hopping over from rivals 1 that will be happy that theres now a place for 3d moddled fighters thats not a mod (im looking at all those brawl mods that are hard to make for and get into) 4. Other game modes. So when story mode comes out, i would assume you can use modded characters too. And other brand new gamemodes

[@saratoga6663]

the only problem will be that there are so many mods for rivals 1 that it will take time for rivals 2 to build up a reputable selection. plus not all the character mods will cross over so that'll be a reason to play the first. although I do reckon both games are going to be worth playing due to their uniqueness between themselves.

[@brendenrichardson7109]

Great vid as always! I think your analysis of how each game measures up to the title of a "smash killer" is really interesting. Obviously no platform fighter will ever *actually* overtake Smash's throne but it's still interesting to look at what these games try to do to set themselves apart, whether it be with unique mechanics, interesting rosters, single player content, or the best thing to ever happen to a fighting game. I think it is cool to see that regardless of how "cash grab-y" they seem at face value, Multiversus and *especially* NASB2 have real effort and even passion put behind them, and bring some pretty unique and cool stuff to the table. And of course nothing touches Rivals and Workshop exacerbates that even further. Can't wait for next week!

[@CptCanondorf]

Hey I make model mods for Melee. It's surprisingly accessible. If the devs have support for mods on RoA2, people will definitely still make new characters.

[@AstralKat]

it isnt about making new characters im not denying that new characters will be made, its just that making something as a pixel art is much more beginner friendly and widely more accessible to the general population, sure you can import models from other fighting games but it'll mean the workshop overall is less unique than the first games, some people might be able to make original models and animations but thats significantly more time work and effort than pixel art is, and I say this as someone who is attempting to learn how to do both, Pixel art is much easier and much more accessible.

[@CptCanondorf]

@@AstralKat If the game is good, I really do see a large number of people learning how to mod it. It will be less accessible, true, but modding Melee took me from 0 knowledge on 3D modeling to carefully sculpting Ganondorf's speedo bulge within a few months. If the game can create passion, the players will follow it to create some great things. I've seen what Melee modders have done, and that game is NOT easy to work with. If the devs make it easy, I don't doubt that the modding community will thrive.

[@st4pps]

God I hate when people call "insert game here " killer. It doesn't help it it just makes people resent new games of the genre. Just let platfighters exist in the same space like every other typa fighting game.

[@AstralKat]

Yea, it's a pretty stupid label IMO, hence the quotation marks around it in the title

[@zeenonyt]

I enjoyed this video, as a fighting game player I love seeing a smaller youtuber put so much effort into research in a video like this. I've played every game besides Fraymakers and NASB2 on this list and all your critiques and complements are valid IMO. If you ever make another platform fighter video I suggest Brawlhalla, I think realistically its the game that got closest to being a genuine "Smash Killer" and I'd love your opinions on it.

[@AstralKat]

I have played Brawlhalla but didnt personally click with it, and never actually heard anyone talking about it outside of how well they support their community with tournaments (this was around the time the smash tournament controversy was at its peak)

[@Specternul]

Well, brawlhalla is incredibly unfun for new players (a problem in desperate need of fixing) So it is possible that you might've gotten turned away before getting to know the main skills, like -Dash jumping -Dash dancing -Dash dodging -Fast falling -Gravity canceling -Mid combo GC punishes/"bursts" If you haven't learned any of these, than the game is going to feel like dogcrap, otherwise, it's entirely possible that brawlhalla just doesn't feel right to you regardless of experience. (Sry for the wall of text if that's the case)

[@Specternul]

@Astralkat

[@jordonthecookie]

I don't mean to be creepy but I think your voice is very lovely and soothing

[@TramiNguyen-oi3kp]

I love these Super Smash Brothers games!

[@angeldoyle859]

Incredible video! I recently got rivals of aether myself, so excited to try it out!!

[@Youwillseesomething]

I hate the term “Smash killer” it’s always used by people upset that other platform fighters exist, and that smash Bros isn’t unique. I mean, it’s very much obvious that none of them can live up to how huge Smash is so can’t people just let the little guy win. It feels icky.

[@AstralKat]

@Youwillseesomething agreed. Thats why theres quotation marks in the title. Its a stupid label that people try to force onto games that only ends up shining a negative light on all involved

[@p.8967]

Really good video, although I don't agree with all the points. I don't think NASB2 has the chance to compete with Smash, as a lot of players dont seem to like it. It also has a very small playerbase rn. I do think Rivals 2 is really trying to be the smash competitor, having the same base, but adding features and making characters that stand out more. While I do think the modding playerbase isn't as interesting in that, it will garner a lot of new players, which I think their goal was. They are even saying themselves its not trying to be a 100% Rivals sequel (literally removing a ton of the mechanics), but its trying to be a better platform fighter. And we already see this appealing to a lot of Smash players, on top of it garnering more attention because streamers like Ludwig and Pirate Software are involved. If the game is actually good enough and ppl will stick around compared to Smash has yet to be seen. My main skepticism is if there will be enough content, as they are mostly focusing on competitive PvP for launch, lacking casual content. That's actually a little bit counteractive to all the new attention theyll garner. Plus the dev team is still relatively small, so even if it does become big, I have skepticisms if they can handle the load. I also think this is why Multiversus is partially 'failing'. Because I do think MVS couldve been the smash competitor. It has licensed characters that are fun and unique, and just unique gameplay in general. Unfortunately everything about the game annoys me when Im playing it. The monetization is greedy (I mainly hate unlocking fighters is one big nuissance). Where you praise the unique approach to smash attacks, I just see myself and others doing the same attacks over and over cause they just arent any more (also because specials have cooldowns); there are easy cheesy combos that kill early, jabs are annoying and hold you hostage, dodging means punish game is weak, it feels like counters are too prominent (f.e. you are playing a projectile character and your opponent has a consistent deflect) and more. The perk system is useless, especially compared to beta. The netcode isnt always smooth either. Like you said the balancing is also a mess, where they arent really fixing much it feels. I think Multiversus had a great chance of being a big platform fighter alongside smash, but it pretty much did everything wrong for relaunch. If it lives long enough it could still be big someday, but Im really skeptical, seeing how the devs dont seem to be handle what they need to do.

[@luckyperson590]

I feel like you need to get a little more experience when it comes to Multiversus, it has a lot more to it than you are aware of. However, I will 100% agree that the game is absurdly unbalanced... Every single character I like are all collectively agreed upon to be bottom tier, not a single person online seems to play the characters they like, rather they all simply play meta. Matchmaking in ranked is broken, you can be in bronze and you'll be matched up with masters league opponents. Lag issues frequently make people ring themselves out, so in 2v2's your teammate can randomly start killing themselves over and over, then you'll be stuck in an infinite loading screen due to them not being able to ready up. Power creep is a major issue, and yes, the devs refuse to buff older and weaker characters... and refuse to intelligently nerf overpowered ones... For awhile online was plagued by Morty mains who would spam mudwall, an essential part of Morty's moveset. It was used to combo, deal with projectiles, and counter. Instead of making it smaller or giving it some sort of cooldown, the developers instead gave it a 3 second delay when used, so its literally impossible to hit. I hated Morty's but even I knew that was a stupid way to nerf something overpowered. I really do love the game, and it has many characters I really look forward to being added in the future leaked. But. Yeah its not very fun dealing with Meta + Lag + Bad Matchmaking + Every Character I Like Being Garbage + No Efforts From The Developers To Balance The Game. The developers REALLY do care about the game, they are heavily held back by Warner Brothers who recently purchased Player First Games... Also, on an unrelated note. I really hope Nick All Star Brawl 3 has better controls, I hate the fact I have to manually tap twice to run and can't turn mid air. Also, I really hope it receives a significantly higher budget, Nick All Star Brawl 2 felt really unfinished and felt like it had a lot of lost potential. It too has many characters I care about, but the insane bugs and poor controls makes it hard to defend for me.

[@AstralKat]

I played the game for about 10-15 hours and was thoroughly bored to tears the whole time, the only reason I played as long as I did was to understand it for this video lol. I dont deny the devs care about the game, im sure they do, but it is almost objectively a dumpster fire, if it were a paid game, supported local play like a normal platfighter, and didnt have any microtransactions I probably wouldnt hate it as much as I do, but WB be WB I guess so money first and community second it is.

[@luckyperson590]

@@AstralKat Yeah... but ya gotta have faith. As someone with over 400 hours of playtime, has been playing since the beta, and knows everything about the game there is to know. It has significant potential. Its live service tactics may suck, but its a ticket to a massive game with insane potential. Also, I'll be honest. Its not a smash killer, but it is a great as a Smash Alternative. The games feel completely different and one is significantly more accessible than the other. Being free, on all platforms, and although rushed, still very high quality. I will be honest though, if the game continues to refuse to fix its balancing issues, I'm calling it quits and going back to cooking with Zim and Jenny on Nick All Star Brawl 2 lol. Who do you main in Nick All Star Brawl 2?

[@AstralKat]

@luckyperson590 I definitely feel like theres significant potential with Multiversus, as someone who also played a lot of the beta, but so many issues are currently holding it back that the devs seem to have either no idea how to fix or no interest in fixing. Hence why I and a lot of people dropped it... I genuinely hope they can pull it back though! As for NASB2 I main Ember and Azula!

[@lordrealashemtov5818]

aweosme video and i like nickelodeon all star brawl and nickelodeon all star brawl 2 both are fun to play

[@zumbiafogado1117]

From the same creators as "Pokémon killer"

[@FinallyAlone]

Super smash bros: "can anyone provide me with a DECENT CHALLENGE!?"

[@Cameron_Bendy22]

Why is the battle cats stage used as an example for something stupid?

[@AstralKat]

that wasnt the intention, and I dont mean stupid in a negative light, when I say stupid I mean moreso silly or dumb fun

[@kmharnish]

Absolutely ice cold arctic tundra ice cream at a hockey game level rivals 2 take

[@AstralKat]

Yeah, the 3D aspect is such a terrible idea. I'm sure theres a legitimate reason behind it but Rivals 1 is THE game you play for modded platfighter characters, I see no possible sane reason why they would just turn their backs on one of the largest indie game modding communities in the world, sure it's not as if all that content will disappear when R2 releases but the fact that they just blatantly ignored the scene while then using the scene to expand the base R2 roster feels like a disgusting backhand to the community

[@MrGameguyC]

@@AstralKat Rivals is much more then just mods...

[@AstralKat]

@MrGameguyC never said it wasnt. But it is THE game people go to for modded platform fighting content, that is the name the game made for itself, that is what 95% of the playerbase knows it for

[@----x-----]

all I want is smash with good online and balance patches, nintendo won't do it sadly other games don't do it either, they could do the online and balance aspect but they also try to do their own thing and ruin their game STOP it, don't remove shield, don't remove ledge grabbing, don't try to be original. just copy smash.

[@FilthyTea]

did they kill smash

[@666blaziken]

Imagine if someone modded rivals 1 to include shields, spot dodges and special get up attacks and ledges and the playerbase moved to that one

[@AstralKat]

Some modded characters do come with these features and they're fun! But it can be jarring going from those modded characters to ones that dont have it included lol

[@MegaDude10]

Casual remminder that Nintendo Haters are fine with greedy, unfinished games as long as it's not made by Nintendo.

[@luckymanx2978]

Video is great, but the thumbnail is a bit cluttered

[@theporkchopexpress3939]

Bizarre comment, -100 aura

[@keithflippers4429]

Cluttered? Bro it's four characters

[@luckymanx2978]

@@keithflippers4429 yo are guys stupid or maybe you don't know what you need to do put up videos so they do good for the algorithm. It's called constructive criticism so she you know, pops off. I want her to do well. You guys haven't put any thought into this, did you.... -10000 aura

[@AstralKat]

Video seems to be doing decent enough without any of my intervention, I appreciate the constructive criticism but I think my thumbnail style is working perfectly, thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts though! :)