The State of Total War - A Discussion with

[@PixelatedApollo1]

Hey guys! This is Part 2 of a long discussion with Volound and Legend of Total War. Be sure to watch Part 1 first, and then Part 3 after this episode. Enjoy! Part 1 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/opvGdJRqm9VlsLs&t Part 3 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKKvlIyjZ85raqM

[@arturillosmeriglia8029]

Link to part1 has a timestamp, I think you should get rid of it. It took me a while to realize that you and Legend were also in the first part of Volound's video. Granted, I'm kinda slow...

[@BringMeTotalWar]

I don’t need much from a game, just the tools to create my own epic historical battles and pretend I’m rewriting history.

[@kevincormack4340]

We simple gamers my guy

[@Smethells2023]

Yes. And that’s why I continue to play titles that were released 15, 20, 25 years ago. I did buy Shogun II, but I haven’t touched TW since then (and I will never bother with it again).

[@matthewcarroll2533]

@@Smethells2023 yeah exactly, if you're easy to please to begin with then just play older titles - don't waste your money or time on stuff that is essentially the same but costs you 70$ or any amount of money.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

Isn’t it what we all want essentially? Maybe except for Volound, I dunno wtf he wants

[@matthewcarroll2533]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 Imagine wanting 70$ worth of content for the game you paid 70$ for. Crazy right? Anyway, I don't buy any of CA or "AAA" bullshit these days - complete waste of money as I said previously.

[@Pilps]

Finally finished part 1! Let’s do this! Amazing surprise to see the three legends all together!

[@TheKaD23]

you would have been an actual good addtion imo, next time?!???

[@Laucron]

While I do kinda agree with most of the points made, you guys kinda really pushed it with the "but you like it because it's bad" thing lmfao

[@OvercomingAndThriving]

Yea they both just can't accept that people do enjoy this game. They are very bitter.

[@illuminated1158]

​@@OvercomingAndThrivingnot it's because legend was saying it was a bad game without explicitly saying it.. did you watch the full video bro?

[@NiklasMJ]

@@illuminated1158 not entirely, what he is saying is that it's a flawed game and he concedes that it's a game that many people would find bad, esp people who have played older TTW's who knows what a really good game in the series looks like, the fact of the matter is that Warhammer is not terrible, it's not bad, it's simply an okay game, people who love it praise it to high heavens while people who hate it speak of it as if it was the devil spawn itself.. But no neither side are right, i like Legend have a love hate relationship with that game and don't ever want to see a TTW that is anything like that ever again, which is why i haven't ever touched Pharaoh and the other one i can't even remember the name of even though we all got that piece of shit for free.

[@illuminated1158]

@@NiklasMJ no dude he literally said it is a bad game between the lines and stated that he wouldn't even play it if he couldn't break the game, you must listen to a lot of politicians and think they are not deflecting either.. i understand, it is his job. he has a family to feed, I KNOW why he deflects but if you have any intelligence and aren't a fanboy it is pretty obvious what he is saying.

[@NiklasMJ]

@@illuminated1158 no i watch a lot of legend, and i know his ways of saying stuff. also he litterately says multiple times that it isn't a bad game in this vid also.. i know exactly what he means when he says both things because i have a lot of context to it. the thing is Legend he thinks about a thing from everyones perspective so when he says it's a bad game he says that because he completely understand why Volound and Apollo thinks that and parts of himself think that because there is a lot of things that Warhammer does very poorly (which is the exact thing he says if u listen), however he also sees why a lot of people love Warhammer and that goes for people who don't just like it cuz it can be ''cheesed'', which btw is not the ONLY reason why he himself likes it (which is also a thing that he says in the video however Cheese in the main reason for his gravitation towards it, just not the entirety of it, far from it), as you would know if you watched alot of his stuff hence why he plays the game a lot offline too and when he does he does so without cheese and things like that, it's even mentioned in the vid. Also i am of the opinion that Warhammer is a lesser game than Rome 1, Medieval 2 and Shoguns 2 fx so no it has nothing to do with being a fan boy

[@conberate]

It really feels like a miscommunication or misconception here, with Volund and PA trying to get Legend to say that since he likes the game it's a good game, or that since it's got problems they wouldn't enjoy dealing with it's a bad game, and Legend is trying to explain that a game doesn't need to be objectively high-quality to be a good fun game for some people, even though it's not what Volund or PA like.

[@thomasparsons9866]

I think I see what’s the issue here. Apollo and Volound want chess and Legend wants D&D. The two of them want more strict and linear gameplay. Legend wants “wanna see something stupid”. The two of them are generally upset that the stupid thing is more successful and historical is being left behind. Legend embraces both, but recognizes both and admits the flaws of both. I really don’t like the two of them saying constantly, “it’s bad”, “it’s trash”. When it’s really “it’s not for me”. Legend knows the games are flawed, but the flaws don’t make it not fun.

[@chrismichaud2644]

Best analysis yet

[@BigPapaKaiser]

Well, that's what happens when the game tries to get the widest audience. It tries to appeal to the chess player, but brings a 3x3 board and 3 types of figures. Of course the chess player is annoyed.

[@adamm2091]

...but they are trash. They are bad. Objectively. You can like it all you want, that's fine, it doesn't make it objectively better as a result.

[@thomasparsons9866]

@@BigPapaKaiser but the problem here is that the chess board still exists. They can still play chess. That game still exists, but they treat it as if its existence has been made less by the other games.

[@thomasparsons9866]

@@adamm2091 I do think the newer historical titles are bad, but not necessarily the Warhammer ones. 1&2 are great fun, 3 has flaws but is still enjoyable. By what metric do you believe the Warhammer games are bad?

[@aburr4220]

Hey PA, It sucks to hear that the channels not doing well, I remember how excited I used to get seeing a new video from you with the cinematic thumbnail and the blue banner up left, the way you got immersed in the game was so genuine. Truthfully I haven’t watched a video in years but I think it’s really amazing you could have that impact. I’m glad you didn’t sell out

[@adambrooker5649]

Its like they don't want him to like a game because they don't like it.... Weird

[@PixelatedApollo1]

We just want to know why he likes the game, more than just because it’s broken

[@Neb-uj4xt]

⁠@@PixelatedApollo1You and that freak have been irrelevant for like ten years.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@Neb-uj4xt being relevant is liking something that’s popular?

[@TheKaD23]

@@PixelatedApollo1 I agree, unless you are familiar with the game that he did a bad job at explaining why people like it. But as many features they didn't continue from older games, which many would actually agree on would be a great addition even to TTW, like for example unit formations. If you want to do explicit realistic battle formationsn on the battlefield you just aren't able to do it as easily in TTW, on the other hand units themselves feel more alive. You have bigger variety in units, a lot of copy paste but aren't the old games even more like that? TTW has just a completly different flaire and ambiente than the old games, so if you want these realistic battle reenactments which you did a lot (and many people did enjoy this) it's not impossible in TTW but it's more like you are handicapping yourself in some degree. Which is fine, you don't need to play everything to the utmost best possible result in a game, people play these games to have fun not to have another job. (NOT that you CAN'T have fun on high settings)

[@jfraser1903]

@Tayletubby no because he was saying it's bad without saying it's bad that's why they were pushing the same issue.

[@chaseseeney6082]

Avengers assemble

[@HT97775]

All that’s missing is princeofmacedon

[@bewawolf19]

@@HT97775 I loved the guy's videos but his form of discussion was always more banning people, rip.

[@imma5761]

FLAME ON

[@roguewasbanned4746]

@@HT97775prince of Macedon was cool back in the day but boy did he not age well

[@DJ-1Q84]

I kinda feel bad for Legend. He clearly has found enjoyment in WHTW even outside of streaming/KZbin but Volound and Apollo do nothing but shit on him for liking it.

[@mufinsp0]

Loving a game just because you can exploit and break it while it fundementaly sucks is weird

[@bahamut149]

@@mufinsp0there is nothing weird with it. We like to see how he broke the game. If you want to see more big brain thing just watch tournaments. It's like fast food, we know it bad but we also like it.

[@DJ-1Q84]

@cheften2mk That isn't the only reason he likes it. But because Volound and Apollo kept shitting on him he probably didn't want to talk about the positive aspects of the game because he knew they wouldn't care.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@DJ-1Q84 he doesn’t have to listen to them. People have expectation that nobody is supposed to say something that can hurt your feelings. If they shit on the game that’s fine.

[@mgs85]

It's his own damn fault for agreeing with a premise he fundamentally, clearly did not. He poisoned the discussion at that point and since he repeatedly failed to articulate himself it got stuck there. Anyone watching legend knows that he loves those games, we've heard him articulate why previously many times but we got absolutely none of that here. It's always a totally pathetic thing to see someone fail to defend themselves or their position, fail to even try.

[@chaseseeney6082]

U know its serious when 3 legends talk 4 for hours about a game they loved and wish more to be like

[@maximusd26]

that's the war council

[@BACON-nf2rr]

I personally enjoy warhammer because of faction variety and lord variety, so many unique campaign mechanics.

[@jarkkovahamaa7272]

Agreed, TWWH has variety and uniqueness Medieval 2 and Rome just can't match. Not even close.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@jarkkovahamaa7272 I don’t know why can’t you guys stop comparing games that are 20 years apart. A proper historical game would have had a ton of tactical and cultural variety. M2 is simply a very old game with very little detail by today’s standard.

[@Laucron]

@@jarkkovahamaa7272 Variety and uniqueness of slop is still slop though

[@tonyharrop5567]

​@@LaucronThat's an opinion. Many people don't share the same opinion as you and Apollo. People play what they want so it only matters to them.

[@mgs85]

@@user-kk3uu7sp8d Because there aren't any other historical TW games to compare them to? Medieval 2, Empire, & Rome 2 were the last great innovations there so it's only natural to do so. Unless you wanted to compare WH1, 2 or 3 to Britannia, Troy and Pharaoh in this way?

[@righteousham]

I was thoroughly impressed with Legend's empathy for his fellow creators during this podcast.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

Volound is a sociopath. Not understanding something so basic seems insane to me.

[@vorynrosethorn903]

Volund is plenty empathic, he just empathises with the consumer who is getting ripped off by such practices. He is just outspoken and ideological about it, probably because he is a socialist, or curmudgeonly, or just a Scotsman.

[@Isengrim24]

​@@shmekelfreckles8157How about you understand the perspective of people who were ripped off with the help of youtubers lol What about their money and livelihoods

[@righteousham]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 I don't think this is true at all. I've watched several of his video's over the years and while he certainly pulls no punches when talking about CA and is pretty harsh on the creators that shill for them, he very clearly states his reasoning why in this video. People have limited time and money and deserve to be given a fair assessment of a product before purchasing it. The partner program, in part, obfuscates bad game design and he fiercely advocates for the consumer.

[@georgescott6620]

@@vorynrosethorn903 all of the above I imagine

[@julianjones1130]

The most ambitious crossover to date.

[@donpizzaplays8529]

Man Legend really struggled here to articulate his experience of TW Warhammer. It's like he doesn't like the game itself, he just likes the ridiculous things he can do when he pushes its limits. That's why Apollo kept coming back to the same thing: "so you enjoy because it's bad" and then Legend kept saying "no, I do enjoy". Like bro just say what makes it enjoyable, you can't JUST enjoy a game because you can break it for 7k hours. More epicness and scale (flying units, magic, monsters, giants), better graphics, more replayability, more diverse playstyles, better diplomacy, cool mechanics like age of reckoning or the imperial decrees or Grom's cauldron, cool lore and setting (subjective but many like it). You have a nuke you can launch during battle with a certain faction. Warhammer TW does many things better than Medieval 2 and vice versa. This conversation is so one-sided "medieval 2 is king and Warhammer TW is trash". Don't get me wrong I LOVE Medieval 2 especially with mods like DAC. I just feel like Volund and Apollo sounded like bitter haters in this trying to get the satisfaction of having the biggest Warhammer KZbinr say that Warhammer TW is bad.

[@addochandra4745]

TWWH as MOBA-RPG-RTS game is good but as RTT it's fell short on many parts...

[@benfromthesewers1688]

In part 1 it was already perfectly explained. Guilty pleasure from Legend in part 1. He loves it, he knows its bad game and thats why he loves it! Because he can break it.

[@bubyCZ]

all you mentioned is superficial view but when you really delve into it, this all superficial shine falls all apart and is made irrelevant thanks to absolutely undercooked mechanics. From everpresent replenishment to power creep and nonexisting economy... CORE mechanics is what matters. That is what makes "replayability" ...not the spectacle itself... You would know this, if you watched part 1 and actually listened...

[@DrJaegern]

I think you’re on the money here. I enjoyed both games immensely but I have put a significantly longer time into warhammer than medieval 2 because there’s just so much on offer. They’re both good games just for different reasons.

[@BigGabe-hr3vk]

side dishes don't replace a meal

[@warning6449]

Obviously part 3 isn't out quite yet but what I think you guys fundamentally don't understand and what Legend is failing to articulate (despite me agreeing with him) is that there are certain things that you can do in Warhammer that just isn't possible in the other older historical games. Like making monster mashes, having flying units, magic, etc. Yes, some of the other mechanics are lesser but people see it as a worthy tradeoff in doing things that you flat out cannot do in the historical titles. So I wouldn't call Warhammer a bad game, more of a black sheep because it does tons of things that the older historical titles didn't even grapple with at all. I think Legend is right in saying that you can't really compare them and in my opinion you guys are just fixated on what the older historical games can do as opposed to what they can't or what isn't possible in them. Doing stuff in Warhammer that the historical titles just can't do is the whole appeal of Warhammer.

[@BittermanAndy]

Yes. And this is... quite obvious. Very obvious, really.

[@benfromthesewers1688]

No that's not why legend loves that game. He loves it beacuse it's bad. Litreally. He loves the fact he can break it. Since part 1 he understood it's "bad" game and said it himself. But I feel like valaund doesn't grasp that concept.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

The point is that it's somewhat easier for CA to continue with fantasy game formula from now on than to go back to a captivating historical game. Right now, they'd have to reimagine their game formula because simply going back to OG Rome and M2 wouldn't cut it. Those two were good in their time, but we'd expect new battle mechanics after 20 years. That's why Pharaoh wasn't interesting to most people: it simply brings too little while not having things from before (siege artillery, variety of cav). Now, CA has two choices. Start a historical franchise from scratch, go deep into research, involve historical consultants. That's a shitton of work with an uncertain outcome. They did not have to do all that with Pharaoh since it's a WH game in its core and the Bronze Age is poorly documented anyway, so you have your "creative freedom". Second option is to continue with fantasy-style games. WH40k or Star Wars aren't going to be fundamentally different from WH3. There's much less effort needed to go from WH3 to WH40k than from WH3 to M3. It's all blobs and spells and single entities. That's the demise of TW. Yeah, WH3 is a good game to many people. Same as Avengers is a good movie to many people.

[@Romans-10v9]

WH is simply clicking as fast as you can to maximize DPS. No pure strategy or tactics. Flight Me.

[@robinekhoodekful]

Yeah it's like saying medieval 2 is trash, bc it doesn't have a diverse cast of units... Where are dragons, tree men, giants in medieval 2? Doesn't have them? Game bad obviously!

[@Himmelmeister]

I think one problem in this conversation is that Legend doesn't list any positive points of Warhammer. The only positive is that he can break the game. Volound and Apollo really don't like Warhammer and list all the things why they don't like it and on every point Legend agrees. So they can't understand why he doesn't come to the same conclusion as them and Legend doesn't explain it well either. That's why they keep coming back to the example of Elden Ring. They don't like the game but they can see why others like the game. That's not possible for them for Warhammer and Legend doesn't manage to explain the appeal

[@DomenTheChief]

Yeah, for some reason he kinda folds here, it was interesting that he didn't outline a single redeeming quality about WH3 here (historical TW-first player here, but my eyes are not blinded to the fact that fantasy TW still delivers, albeit in a different way). Fantasy TW and historical TW discussion is straightforward. They're different games built on top of the same foundation. As soon as you start mixing elements, the different target audiences will come in conflict. Both audiences have different priorities, desires and perspectives. Keep historical TW historical TW, and keep fantasy TW fantasy TW. Be true to both, respect both audiences, and reuse features where it makes sense and leads to a better, more authentic experience. Don't see why he'd even do this podcast, I see no (business) benefits for him here whatsoever.

[@AlejandroNievas1]

the do in the first part , they mention alot the spectacle, or the campaing aspect being the best.

[@donpizzaplays8529]

Exactly, the problem is that Legend doesn't list a single good thing about the game while Volound and Apollo list what they hate. Not sure why Legend couldn't list a single thing that Warhammer does well.

[@moanguspickard249]

2 fo the reasons i like Wh are: 1) more diverse units and gameplay (if they actually did it) 2) playing the "fantasy" (just how i like 300 spartans vs 10.000 fantasy, i like humans vs dragons fantasy)

[@minprivatmail1164]

​@moanguspickard249 That doesn't mean the gameplay is good infact it's why Warhammer is boring it might have "unit diversity" (cool models), but it's gameplay is what matters and Warhammer lacks depth it's a cookie cutter sand box that fails at being fun and worst of all fails to have depth

[@emilbj23]

From an historical TW fan who never played WH, these podcasts have been rage inducing. These guys (Volound and Pixelated) are constantly insulting players, other KZbinrs, people working hard at CA etc. They are insufferable know-it-all which actually know very little about the recent games, as they many times repeat. Just because other people like something they don't like. Come on, grow up or keep on playing your 15 Yold game and shut up. Thanks Legend for being the voice of reason. For once I think he was waaay too diplomatic!

[@BoodieJ-c5c]

I'm sure Legend likes it for more than just being breakable, so here are a few points I'd make: 1) The setting and the lore. Not for everyone, but a lot of people will love it, and people can often overlook some drawbacks for a rich universe. 2) A lot of species, most playing somewhat uniquely. Each has multiple factions, many with unique mechanics, and again, playing somewhat uniquely. This adds a huge amount of variety and helps the game remain interesting for longer. 3) The unit variety and adjustment of difficulty settings can allow people to play more to how they want. Turn the battle difficulty to medium, download a unit cap mod, and you can play 'realistically' with standard troops and semi-significant morale. Or dial it up to very hard and cheese it. 4) Massive map. 5) Magic, monsters, dragons etc. A lot of people love just watching them in battles. There's a lot to like, but not everyone is going to like it. The battles are more arcade-like, and it is a fantasy setting, but I don't think most people care. Most people play on easy-to-medium settings, so probably wouldn't explore the totality of the slightly increased complexity in the classic titles.

[@redsimonyt]

He pretends to like it because of the money. Nothing else. Of course he tries to get as much fun out of it as possible, otherwise he would become crazy, like in his sales job he was talking about. But he has to try hard with this crap game.

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

@@redsimonyt His world conquests prove otherwise.

[@redsimonyt]

@@sandrothenecromancer6810 On the contrary, together with what he said in this discussion they only prove he is desperate to avoid taking another job.

[@ngkhaijie]

Nah he just wants the cha ching cha ching. Don't you notice that he kinda talks like a politician in this.

[@BalthasarGelt-x2d]

I feel like you guys are kind of in the same position Halo KZbinrs were like 5 years ago.

[@Slvrbuu]

It sounds like Legend likes the parts he likes, and they aren't offered well enough anywhere else, so he's kind of in a captured audience. Couple that with this being his job and he's willing to put up with more than a lot of other people.

[@richardsylvester4518]

All i saw here is one person bieng logical and sensible and respectful of others opinions. Amd two others who were arrogant and stubborn who see themselves as objectively right. No wonder the fanbase argues so much if these two are the best examples of thier representatives. Wow. (Hint. Legend is the sensible one)

[@MisterDusterix]

They obviously don't buy what he's saying about why he likes Warhammer. Surely you must admit his main reason for liking the game, basically "I like it because it is badly programmed and breakable", is not very believable. They're probably thinking the real reason he likes Warhammer is the money...

[@redsimonyt]

All I saw was one person trying to justify why they play a bad game, pretending that the only possible job to pay the bills is being a shill KZbinr for that game. (Hint. Volund and Apollo are the honest ones.)

[@pillshere3000]

Don’t bother, they will never hear your words unless it agrees with their own

[@Aizen2468]

​@@redsimonytAnd thats why Pixel and Volound look so awful in this video. Because anyone who has any sense, knows that Legend has gone MAJORLY off on ca, to the point of being blacklisted. Multiple times. He calls out the bs. But unlike Pixel and Volound who operate on an absolutist mentality, Legend will curse them when they behave poorly, and praise them when they make good moves. Hes actually objective, and isnt just 100 percent, a hater all the time. The other two, just seemed like nonsensical foaming at the mouth and constantly twisting Legend's words as he was trying to be nice to them.

[@redsimonyt]

@@Aizen2468 CA has themselves painted into a corner some time ago. They are not capable anymore to do something good. When studios go w0ke, they are bullying everyone with good work ethic out of the company. It doesn't align with their world view. Ideology ccomes first for these people, it#s the only reason why they ever worked onm something like "Hyenas". You have to be mentally ill to make a drag queen shooter while you are part of a corporation like SEGA and not independent.

[@Crimmo877]

Good lord, I was just screaming for Legend to say "it's a giant sandbox where you can smash varied armies together and enjoy the spectacle". Anything like that. That's the reason the vast majority of ppl who like it, like it. It's not complicated to articulate.

[@rocketensky3336]

Pixelated Appolo you really seem to want LoTW to not like Warhammer 3. Just let the guy enjoy it. It fills a niche for warhammer fans

[@benfromthesewers1688]

I did not get that Impression? Valound maybe but not appolo. He rather wants to understand and talk about issues in TW as whole.

[@adambrooker5649]

Yeah agree, Voland definitely doesn't want LotW to like anything but historical TW, Apollo just doesn't understand why

[@adolfo777nica]

​@@benfromthesewers1688Jesus you're such a fan boy

[@baldr2510]

@@adolfo777nica What?

[@maxbenard472]

​@@adambrooker5649 you miss the point entirely. Volound doesnt care about historical vs fantasy, he hates rome 2, troy, 3k, pharoah. He just thinks warhammer is a bad game, the same way he thinks newer historical games are bad also. It has to do with the games themselves and how they play, nothing to do with historical vs fantasy. LoTW even concedes warhammer is a bad game. You can still enjoy a bad game while recognizing that its bad. Thats fine.

[@binks808]

about half of this you guys trying to put down legend for playing warhammer mad condescending...

[@PixelatedApollo1]

He wanted us to confront him on it

[@LegendofTotalWar]

Yeah I asked them not to go easy on me. They literally did exactly what I wanted them to do. I wanted my points of view to be challenged and they forced me to rethink some things.

[@Stoss_]

​@@LegendofTotalWar yeah but it's like a 3 hour discussion of that single topic. Even though you talked about other stuff too, you guys always returned to it or implied it. You could've talked about other stuff in more detail, instead of focusing too much on that for whole 3 hours

[@vorynrosethorn903]

I mean it's a talk between friends, basically a discord call, it's not a debate on national TV, they are just discussing what they feel while having some banter. The reactions are treating a bit of scruff like some sort of gladitorial deathmatch come judicial duel. It's like people have no sense of proposition.

[@binks808]

@@PixelatedApollo1 havent you done full warhammer campaigns? thats more than ive done im still failing to understand why all of a sudden you dont realize what people find fun in the games.youve had to have had some type of enjoyment to finish those campaigns just saying...

[@cutter25221]

While I agree with the vast majority of your sentiment as a lover of history, calling people who disagree with you "worms and filth" is crazzyyyy to me, and is certainly not what I subscribed to this channel for. Imagine that, people like different things. Likening this to shit like alcoholism is pretty moronic. It's like you can't imagine people liking something that you don't. For people who love the Warhammer universe and it being the reason they play the game, likening them to porn addicts, is quite dense.

[@horationelson1840]

They don’t have an issue with people who disagree with them, and they mention that multiple times. Even volume who is by far the most opinionated out of the three is pretty clear on this. Please watch the whole video and think about what they’re saying instead of pulling a single quote out of context. Thanks.

[@cutter25221]

@ soooo, they didn’t call people who liked the Warhammer or newer games worms and filth? I guess I need to get hearing aids lol

[@Arasaka]

I watched Legend's video yesterday where he disbanded all but 2 units and used the Chaos Dwarf Lord to destroy at least 3 Empire armies. It's not how I like to play but it was fascinating that he was able to do that, and I was rivetted. It would never occur to me to try that, nor would I in my own games, but it was lots of fun to see play out. I wish it wasn't possible and that we had a great game instead, but it is what it is.

[@HonshuHigamori]

It makes for utterly horrendous gameplay, but CA is a bunch of toucans that refuse to do anything but milk their dumb fanbase as much as possible. You deserve what you tolerate.

[@novakaizr]

Seriously you guys talk about "legend only like the game because it is bad" somehow forgetting he was doing the exact same thing in the older games as well. All his campaigns in the old games are about finding ways to cheese the game

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

I think a better question to ask Legend would be, "do you think wargammer games are WORSE," Not, "is it BAD."

[@Thunderdumpe]

Watching legend swoop his dragon for four hours is very appealing, but it's not viewed from the first person (I wish I could do this) it's viewed from the third person, as a drama of overcoming impossible odds. We love a story of someone refusing to surrender in an impossible situation, and somehow persevering to win, in the same way that we don't want to read a book where all the characters are happy all the time and everything goes well. The meta-layer of viewing is watching a human playing the game, it's not just watching the game itself. And when you see extreme circumstances, you get a deeper look into the character of the player, in this case courage vs despair.

[@addochandra4745]

Yeah agree with you, but the sad thing from that swooping for hours is in supposedly Fantasy RTT Game there isn't true swooping mechanic with flying units...

[@SomeIdiotLUL]

i remember that, took out 3 stacks i think with one dragon.. made me crave Dorito scoops with nacho cheese. i never knew swooping was a thing till i seen legends streams

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@addochandra4745afaik swooping isn’t a thing in TT and it would make flying units too strong. Making them commit to landing if they want to fight makes sense from gameplay point of view.

[@addochandra4745]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 How about airlift unit like for example Vargulf can carry skeleton unit and drop them behind or on top of enemy? What I understand from Old vs New TW is new TW lacks unit that can do formation, ability, etc. In hindsight TWWH is a MOBA-RPG-RTS hybrid game not true RTT like RTW1 and M2TW...

[@Vince-tt1uj]

Why half of this discussion is PA yelling "how you can enjoy this bad game!"?

[@sirnosferaty]

Because theres 2 guys in this discussion who desperatly need validation.

[@PixelatedApollo1]

Because I am trying to understand the good parts of the game that he enjoys. Not just "I like it because it is bad"

[@adolfo777nica]

​@@PixelatedApollo1no you're not, this whole conversation is you trying to convince someone to hate the game they enjoy

[@Vince-tt1uj]

@@PixelatedApollo1 I agree with you because I'm not a Warhammer guy, but I got 2,5k hours in WH2 so I know where are the bad parts.

[@baldr2510]

@@PixelatedApollo1 This whole conversation has got redditors SEETHING, especially in Lotw comments.

[@vladeathell]

Warhammer is a good game because it offers a huge variety of gameplay despite its many flaws. This is coming from a hardcore TW fan since Shogun, spent probably 5k hours in MTW2 and would take a GOOD historical any day. However, a fantasy setting tend to appeal to the escapism in every one of us more than a historical one for starters. After the mess they made with RTW2 and Atilla TWWH was a fresh take on TW gaming for me. It's more personal with all the character development and backstory, it has tons of things that do matter on the field like magic, hero abilities, flying units and etc. that are not constrained by a historical setting and has a huge replay value because of it. One thing they completely ignored is the actual effect of the setting being Warhammer which has a huge fanbase on its own (myself not being one of them before TWWH to be fair). While the game is busted on oh so many levels and in my own opinion, dumbed down from previous titles on stuff like empire development and economy I enjoyed over 6k hours in it, occasionally return to it for a friendly MP campaign or on new DLC and it offered a lot more fun for its buck for me than anything after MTW2. And yes, I actually own both Troy and Pharaoh.

[@adamm2091]

Not sure if bait comment or mindless TW fan boy.

[@vladeathell]

@@adamm2091 Your well constructed argumentative reply amazes me, especially the part with the mindless fan boy as I am 40 years old and a gamer since I was 12. I though the idea was to actually have a discussion? Or we just stick to hating?

[@pillshere3000]

@@adamm2091are your parents siblings

[@OvercomingAndThriving]

Am not going to defend this, you two went out of your way to provoke the Warhammer community to make yourself feel better about a situation you two clearly feel defeated about. It's Creative Assembly fault this is happening, not the Warhammer fans, and you two know it.

[@Jach93]

Great conversation! I suppose if you are looking for a take on someone liking TW Warhammer and not finding it bad I can give it. This is also as someone that grew up loving Medieval 2 and played a decent bit of Shogun 2 and Empire. Sorry for the length. To start with, I enjoy fantasy. The setting of Warhammer is extremely immersive for me, the lore is deep and fun to delve into. TW Warhammer (once again, for me) captures the core of Medieval 2 gameplay that I enjoyed but adds a layer of fantasy and as Legend said, spectacle. I enjoy the little things like the campaign map being lovingly detailed, and you can zoom in and find something strange or easily miss-able, and the same can even be said for some of the battle maps. Are there flaws? Absolutely, but for me it doesn't have more flaws than many other games I like. Some of the content in it is just flat out better than other content. Some DLC like the chaos dwarves is some of the most interesting and unique TW gameplay I have ever experienced, while some are, as you and Volound say, mostly re-skinned slop like Mother Ostankya in the Shadows of Change DLC. As a side note I was part of the group that Legend described that voted with our wallets and refused to buy that DLC. In terms of how I play, I tend to crank the battle difficulty to very hard, but I make sure the AI stat modifiers are unchanged. I want breaking enemy morale to be possible, the -16 to leadership from losing a leader means a lot more without the AI stat difficulty modifiers. I find the Warhammer 3 AI at that level competent and reactive myself, it dodges spells and tries to avoid bad unit matchups where possible, an example being if they have light cavalry they will usually make an effort to dodge your front line and dive your squishy backline unless caught. Campaign difficulty I leave on normal or Hard at most, as I also don't enjoy AI army spamming. I say all that just to clarify my play style is a lot different to Legend's. I enjoy those balanced battles where I don't cheese and fight tooth and nail for that W. tldr; I enjoy the fantasy aesthetic and level of detail the game has. The core gameplay is enjoyable for me as someone that also enjoyed those older games when I was younger. I am not blind to the game's flaws but do not find those flaws are nearly egregious enough to make the game bad. As someone that prefers to play TW games for pitched battles and strategy I find myself feeling fulfilled often.

[@LucasCunhaRocha]

CA don't deserve you guys, people who are so passionate about their products that they would sit for hours discussing on how to save their sorry asses. I honestly given up all hope to ever see something even remotely close from Med2 again from TW, at this point I hope some small/indie dev take up the mantle for a spiritual sequel.

[@sirnosferaty]

I mean basically this is just volund seeking validation and making fun of legend and warhammer, and legend (because he doesn't want to be the old legend anymore and because he's way more mature) just trying to be respectfull and saying "Well u are totally free to think that but i enjoy it". Literally the summary is: Volund: "So you enjoy these parts of warhammer?" Legend: "yeah i have fun with it" Volund: but the games is bad because of that right Legend: Yeah u could say that, but i totally have fun with that Volund: but game is bad tho right bro u can totally agree Legend: i mean that's a valid point but i have fun breaking it, Volund: wouldn't you say that a game where u need to break to have fun is a bad game tho? Like dude, are u after validation or smth? Like the point about skyrim and san andreas doesn't even make sense. Lets not even go into the fun janky games (like gothic or stalker) Cheats and Cheese are different things. I guess he forgot that in rome 1 we could also cheese, and the best fun you could have was just to cheese the senate? movement bug? hell medieval 2 was great because of all the cheese when sieging cities. I guess legend is trying to be polite because he went trought a phase of hating warhammer too but damn. Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean its bad, and a game not being perfect doesn't mean its bad. Warhammer its not rome 1, its better in some ways and its worse in a lot of ways, but its not the same thing and the game is so different that it cannot be 100% compared, even comparing to Attila is hard. And you know the best part? i've never even played the warhammer TW games. Volund managed to make me feel sorry for the game after being so annoying about it. Guy managed to do in 1 hour what CA couldn't in years.

[@cp1cupcake]

I watched Volound‬, but he started ranting about stuff he pretty obviously hadn't researched and unrelated to gaming. I mentioned it as a comment and his response to me was like I insulted his entire family for suggesting he wasn't perfection made manifest.

[@addochandra4745]

Yeah If you already know where PA, Volound, and LoTW comes from before these discussion, it's kinda expected at this point...

[@l-Dismas]

I hate how he choses very loaded words every time he speaks because he thinks it will give more weight to his opinions, teenager behaviour coming from a 30 + years old. During part one at some point he was about to say "exploiting the game" while talking about shogun 2 but he stoped himself mid word and said "exploring the game". He cant bring himself to use even one derogatory word when talking about something he likes. And ofc he does the exact opposite when he doesn't like something ("its pathetic"/"its shit" ect). I can get behind alot of his positions but he does not understand that people wont respect your opinions if they don't respect you, and they wont respect you if they realize you are a bitter loser stuck in his early 20'. I do watch his channel from sometimes tho, the feeling is akin to watching tv reality in a way (im talking about that "im so much better than these guys" feeling).And from time to time everyone needs a bit of negativity.

[@SamueLeumas911]

He's Scottish therefore he's a miserable funny twat. I like him though. He's very opinionated but so what? He's a gaming KZbinr from a far away land, let's chillax(it would be great for Volound to chillax sometimes too)

[@cass7448]

@@cp1cupcake If LoTW didn't have so much cred, Volound would absolutely be resorting to insults like he does to everyone who gives even a little bit of pushback in the comments sections of his videos.

[@raemac9226]

I cant believe I'm typing this but there seems to be an obvious maturity difference between Legend and the other two in this convo. Apollo isnt too bad but Volound comes across as extremely petty and spiteful with his giggling and snide comments. Disappointing tbh.

[@daxtorsstuff7678]

Bit painful to listen to towards the end, Volound and PA can't see any positives about warhammer at all so legend is just talking at a brick wall

[@MildlyAnnoyedPerson-j2b]

What I like about the historical TW was the single premise. You had various kind of infantry, cavalry and artillery and your victory would come as result of your tactics / strategy. The TW games like Napoleon and Shogun are to this day some of my favorite of the series despite the fact that all factions can recruit the same or very similar units. The Medieval 2 had some differences especially if you compared units from middle east to the french or english units. By introducing the fantasy aspect the TW: Warhammer can do a lot. Do you like TW Napoleon and the artillery focus nations - go play Empire or Dwarfs, do you want to role-play Vietnam ambush tactics - go play Wood Elves, do you want horde factions (as in ton of trash troops) - go play Beastmen or Skaven, do you want shock cavalry - go Bretonia, etc... Do you want some specialization within faction - go this lord. Oh and there is magic to buff or nuke enemies. Plus some extra gimmicks. Is the game ballanced - no. You can have doom-stack (or 1 man doomstack) army that can withstand anything the AI will throw at it. Its just... there is certain charm to it. And if you want to apply some historical formations - well you can. Check out the Malleus Gaming channel for pike and shot or tercios. The hammer and anvil is also classic that can be used. Or checkerboard formation.

[@ThomasL12.]

warhammer 3 is not a bad game, it’s just a fundamentally different game than the historical games

[@ngkhaijie]

Then why are they trying to bring warhammer mechanics to the historical game instead of keeping both separated?

[@ThomasL12.]

@ because CA thinks that since it works in a fantasy setting it should be brought to historical. which is wrong

[@redsimonyt]

It is both a bad game and fundamentally different than the historical games.

[@ThomasL12.]

@ just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s bad

[@johnnygl3634]

Legend gets his own appeal to his audience. He's not doing demos of how to play the game. He's exploring the far reaches of what the programmers have done, amusing his audience, letting them laugh at the flaws, and helping them learn a little and inspiring people to try different things with what the game has to offer.

[@Fastwinstondoom]

Alot of us Warhammer players are used to GW's abuse and compared to that CA's stuff(apart from Shadows of Change) has been pretty tolerable ;) For me it's simple though: Warhammer 3 is a flawed game in lots of ways but I love the setting, the lore and the variety of playable races and factions so much that I'll probably keep playing this game, on and off, until a)I die or b)it becomes unavailable

[@AntiTMG]

They've been doing this shit since Rome 2

[@matthewcarroll2533]

I hear stuff like that and honestly? Just makes me sad. Sad that people can sustain such abuse to accomplish simple entertainment and it's even worse today, tomorrow and continually until people stand up for themselves and say "enough is enough, no more money for you".

[@Person0fColor]

“Variety of factions”? What variety? Every faction uses magic the same way and buildings the same way it really is an X beats Y beats Z beats X game. I hate that the undead factions have morale and to off set it all you have to do is build happy morale building that destroys any sense of immersion I have and it ain’t much to begin with. Every faction interacts with magic in the exact same manner where is the “faction variety”? Do t even get me started on the 1 unit getting 568 kills in combat 😂 that is so fuckkking ridiculous there’s k my so many hours of watching legend dodge thousands of arrows at a time that I can take you can literally take 1 hero unit and dodge an entire armies worth of ammunition 😂 like what the hell who decided to have every missile unit shoot at the same target so you can freaking run back and forth and dodge all their arrows 😂 and for that matter firearms units aren’t even firearm units they act as archer units do just have a firearm skin total lack of commitment to detail

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@Person0fColortell me you’ve never even seen Warhammer gameplay without telling me. Like, undead units don’t have morale, they have “binding”

[@Fastwinstondoom]

@@Person0fColor You should try to play some yourself instead of getting your opinions from Volund and your gameplay info from Legend. Both are extreme outliers in their own way.

[@SereglothIV]

I expected Legend to be able to better express what he thinks. He admits to all the flaws of Warhammer, but fails to name a single good thing. Not 'I like that I can break it' but actually good features. That's why Apollo and Volound have an impression that he thinks it's a bad game and both want him to admit it so badly. Repeatably.

[@honeybadger6275]

He sounded like he had stockholm syndrome.

[@BillyLndn]

If you listened, he said he likes the campaign mechanics but Karen volund jumped and said "name something other than the campaign"

[@SereglothIV]

@@BillyLndn True, there was one moment when he started talking about campaign but Volound immediately shut him down with laughter.

[@Manunido]

@@BillyLndn But he also openly admits to ignoring 80% of the mechanics of the campaign so its not really a solid point for him to stand on

[@zacharyraut151]

Volounds pretentious laughing is so annoying

[@ayylmao4353]

Yeah he isn't very genuine, just smug cattle

[@zacharyraut151]

@ I agree with his takes about CA I think they are a shit company but it’s just annoying to be an asshole for no reason lmao

[@lt3746]

@@zacharyraut151You have to understand that Volound has been hounded harassed and was basically exiled as a pariah by the whole of CA and the community so he enjoys a little vindictive payback now and again

[@zacharyraut151]

@@lt3746 yeah but legend is a good guy, not like he’s some ca dev…

[@redsimonyt]

You don't like Volund and his laugh because he tells the hard truth. And that hurts.

[@LegendofLegendofTotalWar-x3m]

warhammer 3 has a lot of things that are enjoyable. they have a world with really interesting and fun themes like an ancient chinese faction ruled by lords that can turn turn into real dragons that use their hot air balloons with rockets and giant terracotta soldiers to fight off truly evil monsters and villains that can corrupt body and mind to create abominations that can turn you to stone or change into other forms of other characters they have befriended or fought. i love smashing the empire colonizers with dinosaurs and giant lizard people for trying to take my land. like c'mon thats at least fun a few times and with all the different things you can be and do its neat. its also just a war game that still rewards tactics: micro and macro. one of my favorite things to do is sneak a gunpowder unit in to some trees where i bait an armored unit into a fight against some weaker infantry so i can pop out my gunpowder units to blast them in the back, and if i didnt pull off a play like that i wouldn't have been able to win the fight bc i didnt bring other units that can pierce the enemy's resistances. it doesnt have all the different means or ways of winning battle thru the leadership penalties and the tactical dominos of the sort but it isnt just a stat check (and the using leadership does sound fun and def should be in the game for players who enjoy that playstyle). yeah there are issues but there is definitely a lot fun things. those are just some of the things i like.

[@cal2127]

honestly at this point youd be better off getting a team of indie devs together than waiting on CA to lay down the crack pipe

[@drafezard7315]

The Ultimate General/Admiral series says otherwise. After like ten years they're just catching up to Empire TW at best.

[@tyburn1493]

I really want to like the Ultimate General games but the abstracted mechanics and graphical style just doesn't do it for me. It's not satisfying when compared to the old TW titles. There was also Scourge of War and Grand Tactician but they similarly don't do things in a way that hits the right notes.

[@ngkhaijie]

Wait another decade, if AI is anything to believe on. The major obstacle for indie devs is the art, creating art assets are expensive on resources. Indie devs generally do well with deep gameplay mechanics, even if not there is AI for that. But we will have to wait a decade at least.

[@asfsqfiaheai4545]

Not sure if Volund or PA have families of their own, but I think their opinion regarding selling out vs being homeless would change if they had children of their own. Eating shit in life is the rule, not the exception, even in a dream job.

[@redsimonyt]

Nobody is forced to be a KZbinr. In fact, nobody has to keep a crap job where you are shilling i.e. lying. There are still crap jobs where you don't have to lie.

[@The_Real_Iggy]

I really am not a fan of legend but i have to admit he was the only actuslly non biased voice here. Volound on the other hand so desperately wants to be some figurehead leading the charge against CA but hes scottish and we know they love fruitless rebellions

[@redsimonyt]

He is biased, he is just less vocal about it.

[@honeybadger6275]

No he is absolutely biased, as he self admittedly loves the warhammer total wars.

[@ngkhaijie]

Nah trying to please both sides is clearly a common tactic to obfuscate the truth. He has a conflict of interest as his channel focus on warhammer. I personally think given the choice, he would pick the historical game over the warhammer one. He said it in part 1 that he enjoy m2tw more too.

[@Meatbrawl]

I think the disconnect comes from Apollo and Volund measuring TWWH as a TW game, but the reason for it's popularity is the outside audience like myself who aren't regular TW players measuring it more like a Heroes of Might and Magic with real time combat, than a failure to implement and innovate from previous installments which we're not as familiar with. TW doesn't mean, morale systems and well executed battle plans to me, it simply means turn based combat map and real time battles. Watching machine guns mowing down dragons, skeletons being smashed by dinosaurs is the spectacle I'm after, not dudes whacking other dudes with some sticks. Sure I can see the point that the combat itself is very shallow and the AI is awful, but it scratches the fantasy spectacle itch like no other game comes close to. That to me makes TWWH2 a good game. Having said that it only took going from TWWH2 to WH3 for me to decide to stop purchasing CA.

[@alexwood8555]

The latter part of this is so hard to listen to. “Trust us bro, it’s bad.” I prefer WH2 over every TW game, and I can do it without shitting on the historical titles.

[@adambrande]

lol it doesn't help that legend was supporting the idea that Warhammer is fun because it's shit which only egged the other two on. Also, legend apparently wanted the two to really hone it in for him that Warhammer is shit so he can rethink some of his views. It's nothing personal, volound and Apollo are literally just doing what he asked them to do.

[@libletvi9060]

A game having flaws doesnt make it a bad game, if the flaws can be exploited in fun ways. Its like in Ocarina of time, where you move faster backflipping. Not the intended way of playing the game, but because it allowed players another way to do things, its a non issue. Speedrunning in many games is about exploiting "flaws" to give the player more ways of progressing. Flawless/perfect games exist, but theyre usually linear and not particularly replayable because of it. For games that are meant to be sandboxy, having accidental jank and bugs can be much more fun than having everything deliberately meant to be a mechanic. Not all bugs are like that of course.

[@matthiasthony5373]

Interesting, I would argue the role playing aspect is an argument for WH. Since WH1, it is epic to besiege a city with Manfred von Carstein and his army of undead zombies. The starting varghulf storming on to the gate during midnight, bringing permanent death to the empire soldiers. What follows then is the hard clash between reality, the role play you just dreamed of and a nightmare scenario for design engineering: zombies so awfully slow in combat that the rest of your army gets stuck 10 meters before the wall, bats die like flies on the walls because they are too early on the enemy, one of the biggest spellcasters screwing up one spell cast after another because of missing key&mouse skills, missing siege equipment (ever seen a zombie carrying siege equipment? they don't look particularly fit anyway), AI screwing up the immersion of actually having an enemy, your forces rather climb walls than to enter the gate (because that obviously makes more sense), infantrymen bringing latters in their pockets but no fire to a siege.... etc...etc. But in the end Manfred remains victorious for whatever reason (you the role play of the undefeated vampire lord as well). If you can identify with the figures this is what keeps you at the game. I would even argue that sieges are played because of the mood not because the mechanics are so great.

[@SirWarkwark]

The deafet screen that sudenly popped up at 45:55 had me so confused and then I saw the gods damn capture points... holy shit that was infuriating!!!

[@Mkoivuka]

Breaking this into 3 parts and giving each creator a third is a really, really, really intelligent decision imo. I hope this takes off as a way to do things as it would genuinely help smaller creators.

[@LordBeff]

What made the older games great is much worse in the newer games, but Warhammer as a lot to compensate for it, and that's why loads of people like it

[@OskarVanBruce]

Legend is a real one for standing up for the small content creators being shat on by Pixelated Apollo. It shows he's a bigger person.

[@Isengrim24]

What about those people that trusted creators to help them make informed decisions by not being dishonest about the content they are showing? The counter to criticism that it's their livelihood is total bs, not only it's the same logic used by people doing a lot of shady stuff, i.e. stealing or robberies, but also simply stupid and irresponsible. When you are barely breaking even after 10 years of doing your own gig you need to stop and get your life together before you waste it away and hit retirement with no money in the bank, not keep basically helping someone scam people out of their money using white lies or simply lies. What about the people that are working to make their ends meet and want to just relax with a game they just bought for their hard earned money? Why does some lying youtuber deserve THEIR money more than themselves? Apollo was 100% right and as a Legend fan I was surprised by this take.

[@random_lich7604]

@@Isengrim24What are you talking about, little bro? If you're struggling to make ends meet, dropping $60 on a game probably isn't the best decision, it's not like the great book of grudges forces you to buy the game

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@OskarVanBruce I sympathize with Volund much more when he says a guy working a job wants to come and play a good game. And these stupid ass reviews sucking up to CA completely ruin the trust.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@random_lich7604 well if you’re struggling to make ends meet maybe choose a career in trades. KZbin is a modern day equivalent of Hollywood.

[@erikschaeffer8419]

Cause as PA said him and volunder told the others about the shitty games, and yet they still shilled them out for profit. So yeah Apollo not wrong to say fuck em, they wanna sell out then that's their issue. A streaming job is a luxury job anyways. Plenty of other work that can be done and actually make a profit than streaming.

[@patrickdaly1088]

@35:25 I have not played TWW in months, I have no intention of ever playing it again, but I watch a lot of Legend content because I too appreciate breaking games. Legend's entertaining, the game is *awful*, but seeing exactly how it's broken is awesome. It's just so awful of a game and the trajectory does not impress. The most I can give it is "CA tried, but got maybe 65% of the way to epicness." Many cool things, too many flaws. As game design is interesting to me, it's super nice to see exactly how CA went wrong, so I can consider better ways to implement things. Reforming units for instance, no logic is given to the *way* that they reform, how many units are trying to path through the same area, or whether the same kind of formation could be achieved without reversing sides entirely. Players can easily see that shifting everyone left by one group would do the job, but the AI seems to flip everyone through the exact same spot. There's really a twofold problem here, the first of which is knowing where to place the units which the TWW ai is OK at but could clearly use some improvements as it's the primary reason blobs happen, and the second is moving them there, what their path to get there is. If a cavalry group was embedded in a long line of friendly spears, and wanted to attack a group on the entire other end for some reason, it would be faster to withdraw from the spears and run behind the line, rather than charging directly. Players instantly recognize why, spearmen are effectively rough terrain, friendly units are a movement penalty. The TW pathfinder doesn't properly respect this movement penalty and this would be the easiest way to fix the game. Just give friendly units a pathfinder penalty. Then the AI will realize "Oh the shortest path to a reform actually isn't a blob, who would have thought!"

[@daisnowsn2369]

love this, finished the 1st part, just finished the second, waiting for the 3rd. I understand what your saying, basically just saying you can have a good game, but also have the ability to brake it. maybe that might be even more fun becouse it will be harder to exploit. hope you guys come together more often.

[@xMephorash]

It was great listening to Legend here. Even though he suffered a lot from being part of the creator program, hearing him argue against romanticization of not being part of it was refreshing.

[@SirWarkwark]

This is like a support group for Legend. We hear you, and we support you! CA can't hurt you anymore!

[@alcoolamus4208]

I mostly play historical TW games, especially Medieval 2, but I do enjoy roleplaying in WH3. It's not all black and white

[@cp1cupcake]

I used to watch Volound‬, but he started ranting about stuff he really knew nothing about. I mentioned it as a comment and he went after me like I broke into his house and killed his pets. As much as I agree with a lot he has said about TW, I just lost any interest in paying attention to anything he has to say.

[@matthewcarroll2533]

But... you'll listen to what corporations tell you? Hopefully not, it's good to be consistent at least.

[@Bobojaxx]

@@matthewcarroll2533 where do “corporations” come into what this man said?

[@boojaliciousiii3797]

​@Bobojaxx my man Matthew thinks disliking Volound means you're a CA shill. To be fair the man could come off as way more likeable if he didn't lord moral authority over anyone whose favorite game in the series isn't Med or Shogun 2

[@matthewcarroll2533]

@@Bobojaxx What I was attempting to say, since everyone on the internet has bad faith syndrome, is that "I just lost any interest in paying attention to anything he has to say" part of what he said is ignorant as hell as a rule of thumb. I was merely HOPING, not telling him to, that if you lose interest in an individuals information then you should at least be consistent and not listen to the garbage all these companies (Y'know, like fucking YT) feed you without at least questioning it. And to the idiot above me "boojalicious", no I don't think if disagree with Volound, or anyone for that matter, that that automatically makes you a shill - what kind of ignorant dumb-fuck do you have to be to think that way? lol Have a good day, clearly trolls. Peace.

[@BittermanAndy]

Volound is the most toxic KZbinr I've ever seen. Which isn't to say his videos are all bad or none have insightful points, but his toxicity is off the scale.

[@crucibleclips]

22:30 Its not about the game PA. Its about the entertainment. Play something you love and the people that love you will enjoy watching it. There are people with successful channels that just talk about backpacks and lunchboxes all day. Fuck the IP-chase, build the PA citadel.

[@jeatall]

about the battle with Legend swipping for hours with a dragon, i remember a game where Legend fought with 3 bretonnian generals and 1 wizzart versus 40 ork units, just by cycle charging. It went for 3 hours, was really cool to watch

[@illrhymes25]

i know you like historical titles apollo but why do you dislike warhammer so much? im not one for the lore of warhammer myself but i love fighting different races of creatures, or seeing mystical creatures from like lord of the rings, like orcs, dragons elves and dwarves, i know you like lord of the rings so why the disconnect?

[@clementine8815]

It's because Warhammer TW is very unique in the way that CA seemed to have put so much effort and time into a half arsed, unfinished, broken cash grab of a game. Would people be on CA's ass if the game was actually good? No of course not, I'd love to be able to play a TW (that works) where I can use dragons and other cool fantasy stuff. But in Warhammer I can't even path a unit properly so it goes through a gate during a siege instead of climbing a wall with the ladders they pull out of their foreskin

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

My take is this, and I have a feeling PA feels the same. I love LoTR, I can rewatch the trilogy again and again. But I can't stand WH3 because it's so much over the top. I watched Legend's streams and I couldn't stand all the characters, the only thought I had "can't they just shut up?". I can imagine myself playing a LoTR TW, but not WH3. That being said, WH3 takes several things away that actually make a TW game enjoyable to me. I love sieges, that's such a big part of earlier TW games. I expected them to become much more intricate after 20 years of franchise. But WH3 has the most dumbed down version of those. People just skip those. And that leaked into Pharaoh as well. The "major historical title" simply has the most bland and uninteresting sieges in all historical TW games.

[@mufinsp0]

Warhammer ruined historical totalt wars. It just did, it should have been its own seperate thing instead of spreading into historical realm where it dosent belong

[@pregno1421]

they said it all at the beginning, it's not about the setting or historical vs fantasy it's about the game itself, warhammer games play completely different from the previous games, I don't like how the battles play out and how the game feels that's the problem most people have with those games and the other modern ones like troy and Pharoah and that's the reason why on the other hand third age tw is such a popular mod, becouse even tho it's fantasy it's a mod for med2 which is a game that most people agree have great mechanics

[@adamm2091]

​@cheften2mk It's more accurate to say Rome 2 killed the traditional TW fan base. The pivot to WH further alienated an already disenfranchised group of players.

[@hansfabri6906]

I am having a really good time playing Dynasties. I wasn't into the small scale of Pharaoh, but man, Dynasties is good. It has a lot of good gameplay feautures, such as Legetimaty that you have to keep up to unlock powers of your dynasty. I miss naval warfare though. I fell like the a lot of the fanbase will critize whatever CA does, my point beeing I can't for the life of me understand why Dyasties has such a bad rep. I have a feeling that many do not even know the game in its current state. I know my humble opinion is just that - my opinion, but I am just enjoying the game so much and woukd rank it in the top 3 abd I have been playing them all since Shogun I . It is just sooo immersive. Give it a good go.

[@MedjayofFaiyum]

You say my points exactly

[@skywalker6119]

For me, I'm still waiting on a sale for Dynasty because it still just looks like a reskinned Troy, and I was sick of Troy after my time with it. People still try and say "it's not Troy, it has weather and terrain" but that doesn't address fundamental issues with morale, unit collision, unit variety, and horrible sieges.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@skywalker6119unit collision is much better, morale is a problem but you can customize morale penalties in settings. The sieges are… okay? But unlike warhammer you can’t really cheese them and you have to interact with them fully if you don’t want to besiege a walled city for years.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@hansfabri6906 it’s just not what I’m looking for in a game given that CA had so much time to improve. I love elaborate sieges with combined land and marine assault, I love siege artillery, I love devastating charges, I love random general traits. I don’t care about the sea peoples surfer dude. I don’t enjoy cav being added for the sake of pleasing people. It’s wrong place wrong time.

[@marchdogerino7388]

It's a reskined Warhammer with less mechanics

[@x7x2porters]

the last 30 minutes feels like a 2v1 slog man, i like to think of legends feelings for taking the game to its limits or beyond akin to speedrunning. It isnt intended but theres many people who enjoy completing a game in that way and even being called the best at speedrunning in whatever game they achieve it in. While many people do stuff similar to him but maybe not on his level, not everyone is legend like he mentioned in his disaster battle example. So it all really came down to both of them trying to convince him into hating the game, reading other comments made me skeptical but it really feels like the only answer. I still enjoyed this though

[@emcdunna]

Its funny to me that all three of uou would like tabletop warhammer. The rukes are so nuanced and complicated for Volound, theres so much customization and role play elements for Apollo, and theres a ton of jank bullshit for Legend

[@ethanwelner1230]

This video is a bunch of unpaid marketers for a company realizing and trying to somehow act like they were betrayed by the company for whom they have spent their careers advertising for. What a weird career path to choose and then be indignant about. Especially when you start complaining about the dignity of other creators who are also nothing but free advertising for a company.

[@Volound]

thats funny because the moment rome 2 dropped i was uploading videos pointing out shit it was and getting comments from people telling me ive saved them $40. now i get the same comments telling me i saved them $60 or even $300 if you count all the trash DLC.

[@nitomurray6137]

Make the podcast! I'd love that, and I think it'd also be good for Legend's mental, and V-man's reputation.

[@uFuqinwitme]

35:35 This is definitely true for me, also for getting tips too. Thinking about the Deus Didn't Vult series for example, just seeing how he deals with such crazy scenarios was super fascinating.

[@Ruben-eo3xs]

Need more videos like this, it’s internet listening to you talk Apollo

[@petruluca6124]

Will I ever be able to play the way Volund plays Shogun 2? - NO Is it still enjoyable to watch? - Yes Will I ever play Warhammer? - NO, looks painful Is it enjoyable to watch Legend squeezing the game into oblivion? - Of course PS: Impossible battles series also goes to breaking points of the game...

[@Phil_K3n_Sebben]

I was there for that swooping battle, it was indeed legendary.

[@EHilgy17]

So I think what they were getting at is not "you like a bad game", its more... would you have fun playing the game as intended?

[@alphabromega859]

this made me like wh3 and legend more and historyqueens a lot less.

[@cheesebiscuits3586]

Bro, @Volound cannot conceive of the way @LegendofTotalWar plays. Constantly just saying "so you like the game because its bad" "so you think the game is buggy". Kind of disappointing and makes me think less of the things he's said about the games more broadly. I think there is a place for the high realism games and playstyles he likes especially, in historic, but jesus hearing him just say "No the only way to enjoy the game is if its like real life" is so cringe. Also the swoop memes are great, and ironically, the (terrible) response from CA is inline with Apollo/Volounds thoughts. Swooping worked because the attack triggered on contact and that contact happened BEFORE the landing meaning the landing could be cancelled by making a new move order. This was "sensible," in that swooping is possible in the real world, and the physics worked (an attack collision happened). CA thought it was derpy so they fked all aerial charge attacks so they'd only trigger after a landing had been locked in. Hearing Legend talk made me realise he's much more emotionally mature than I thought, very impressive. He really went from degen swear goblin to a reflective adult able to contextualise his own and others' experiences and understand the pressures other people face in a very compassionate way. And, most impressively, he did this without changing his fundamental appeal.

[@deansheppard1104]

37:06 legend sum it up Pretty well why people watch him , this is probably also the reason he refuses to use mods that somehow fix the game since he would have no content left to publish.

[@TacoTruck815]

Lmao yeah I watch him Because he "autistically refuses to lose"!

[@lazyking7444]

What defines a good game. A worthy question indeed.

[@JasonMachin-nv8ei]

Well, I understand all points of view & we all play games for different reasons so on that each to there only has long as you are having fun. If it wasn't not you, PA, I would have never known about Medieval 2 games. I love playing & I look forward every week watching you & your comments on games. I really don't care what you play.

[@nathanrobinson1099]

How Legend describes Warhammer is how I would describe and defend Empire. I get it.

[@jebreggie4225]

We all know by now CA gave up on people who like their old games, their audience is the redditors who will spend 200 dollars on dlc factions that should be in the base game

[@Metaldude1945]

MUST CONSOOM NEW PRODUCT

[@Metaldude1945]

@@strangestecho5088 I am not familiar with the Warhammer lore at all, but I take it there are some major factions in it? It's like releasing a World War I game and not have one of the world powers in it. From what I hear also, the DLC's don't seem to add that much. Don't know if that criticism is valid or not.

[@smittywerbenjagermanjensen5210]

Felt like you guys were talking past each other for the last half of the video pretty disappointing.

[@fierce8943]

This one was more painful. Trying to paint legend into a corner. I’m an OG TW fan. Despite having like 400hrs in the warhammer series, I don’t really like it. I don’t play it anymore. Whereas I do go back and play shogun 2, Attila, Rome 2… so I like this conversation and share in your frustration. It just felt weirdly combative with legend over semantics.

[@tezzy5584]

I think it'd be fair to say Legend would be more positive about Warhammer if this conversation was held a few years ago - he's well into doing it as a job like he says, whatever fun it had for him is long gone.

[@Siobunn]

I also was struggling to understand the emotional conflict between love and hate from Legend in regard to Warhammer but then I think it clicked in my mind: It's not about love or hate, good or bad. I could be wrong but I think it's like when you travel to a different country far far away in the spectrum of what you are used to, such as an American traveling to Europe or vice versa. You get there and wtf why do they drive like that? At what time they have lunch? That's crazy. They do what with those? That's stupid. And yet, you have a great time every day in partaking in the culture, the weird, the junk and bla bla bla but oh boy you are glad to be back home when it's over. It's an experience, a core memory that you might not want to repeat again but you had your lion share of pleasure. I'm over simplifying of course but at least I think that's the gist of how he feels about it.

[@Siobunn]

Oh and he said Warhammer is trash.

[@mati12554]

Honestly? I wouldn't mind if you three would do podcast stuff like this weekly.

[@viro3445]

Apollo just dont like warhammer universe and cant take the fact that it was a huge succes.

[@TheWaffleRadio]

I really appreciated in the first quarter of this video that Legend is supporting solidarity with fellow creators instead of acting like frogs in a bucket. There are some real grifters out there but it's a small % of people. CA's practices are the problem more than people trying to make content about their product. Stay focused instead of pitting your peers against each other!

[@ngkhaijie]

CA products is a result of their practices.

[@1992zorro]

I like how Apollo is even so subtle to talk about "The Terminator" without saying his name but copying his obnoxious British accent😂

[@TheRingoism]

Dunno If I'm missing something but The Terminator isn't British

[@1992zorro]

@TheRingoism He's actually Turkish but he's lived in London for some time so he likes to talk that way.

[@TheRingoism]

@1992zorro I was born and raised in London and he doesn't sound English at all let alone a Londoner, he sounds a lot similar to Apollo tbh

[@blebcat]

@@1992zorro No he fucking doesn't lol

[@Pangora2]

For me, the "push and break a game" is a terminal phase before the end of me playing a game for awhile. It means it can't challenge or entertain within its own mechanics anymore so you have to make a challenge of trying to squeeze blood from a rock. It's not a good place to be.

[@FEDEXLuchs]

Battles in warhammer are waaaay too quick they spent all this time gloating about how nice the models work but battles are done in 5 min.. leaving no time to zoom in on the carnage

[@Ahmadabdal_]

volund: WH suxxxxxxx its broken and janky >:( Legend: I can use the jankiness to my effect and i like to use everything to my benefit :) thats what i enjoy about it. Volund: BUT WH SUXXXXXXXXXX >>>>:(((( repeat ad nouseam why was volund being so antagonistic to legend? is he stupid? legend literally conceeded to every one of his points

[@123asds]

Legend just can´t let go. He has a family now. It´s his job, and it´s not that bad a job.

[@redsimonyt]

Shilling for a bad game and even worse for a rotten corporation that shamelessly lies to their customers and insults them, is fundamentally a bad job. Lying so others make bad purchase decisions is immoral and thus the job is immoral.

[@123asds]

@@redsimonyt I agree.

[@arturillosmeriglia8029]

Can't just leave us on that cliffhanger, you bastard!

[@treestone95]

Apollo sounds so pretentious here, "id rather be homeless than cowtow" like people have families they have to feed, they are 10 years into a career and you think that they are going to switch their whole career over the game of the year? Just wait till the new one comes out ? how can you be so tone deaf about this?

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@treestone95 PA walks the walk. He doesn’t play progressively more shitty games from CA when he could have been doing much better with the channel. He promotes small indie games recently. And let’s be honest. Having sympathy for people who gave pharaoh 9/10? Screw those guys.

[@redsimonyt]

People lying about the quality of a game is a disservice for people who buy and play games. Apollo doesn't do that, Legend does.

[@treestone95]

@ that is simply not true. I like and have over 2k hours in warhammer. Because YOU dont like it doesnt mean it isnt good.

[@mgs85]

@@user-kk3uu7sp8d That isn't the walk. The walking would be him being put into a situation where he had to choose between the two. He's never been in that position and he likely never will, but he could. With the channel performing poorly over time maybe he gets to a point where he has to make a hard choice, and, we'll see then. Everyone talks the talk when things are still hopeful.

[@user-kk3uu7sp8d]

@@treestone95 well, is that a solid argument you're making? People put thousands of hours into TikTok. It is popular, it is making money, does it necessarily mean it's objectively good? Of course, not. Like, McDonalds is also popular.

[@kaiserjoe2316]

Medieval 3 William Wallace special abilites- Fireballs From Eyes. Bolts of Lightning from Arse.

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

Warhammer can`t have more advanced mechanics (stronger impact effects or stronger morale effects) as a result of the "MP community"

[@nelson_sauvin]

This my friends is great content. 👏🏼👏🏼

[@staunch8309]

A bit late but I think with the argument of “How can you like Warhammer” Legend is the wrong man to ask because he likes the game for a different reason of the status quo. For example, I like the game because of all the fantasy aspects made LOOKING great in battle. The unique mechanics like how daemons disintegrate and the Russia-esc faction has a last stand morale mechanic like how Shogun 2 has the ‘fighting to the last’ for sieges. Although some are reskins from older titles and the game isn’t as rich in some ways it makes up for me like how I love having the feeling of being some rising Orc Warband similar to how you roleplay the LOTR style of campaigns and battles.