The State of Total War: A Response to Legend of Total War, Pixelated Apollo and Volound

[@sausagesausage]

I've been a player of Total War since the demo of the very first game came free with a PC magazine. And the gatekeeping I see from fans that haven't been in this series for half that time is insane. I love Historical but I was one of the people who always dreamed of a fantasy setting and thoroughly enjoy Warhammer tw. Like what you like and don't worry about the snide little nerds.

[@Grunfffff]

Someone in Creative Assembly dreamed too. I remember article in gaming magazine about negotiations between CA and GW and I think that was just after lunch of first Rome TW.

[@-hms34]

Good times! ;) Did I remeber right you get one unit of archers and then need to put them on a hill to win the demo? ^.^

[@EmperorDionx]

I highly doubt you have played TW that long......just another lying casual WH fan

[@quimble2177]

Those evil gatekeepers wanting…more complex campaign gameplay, better battles and details that the company could do when it was far smaller than it currently is by apparently can’t now? Remember how they had to ADD unit officers in Warhammer TW?

[@malayafreespirit1905]

is that demo was with battle of river tribea...i got that demo

[@Monifans]

boys we made it we have total war drama reaction videos

[@AndysTake]

we've arrived

[@harrisoncurtis204]

Here’s what features I would like to see return, or get improved: - Kingdom/Empire management, like the features we see in Attila/DEI. Political intrigue, power balance of parties, marriage/divorce, family trees, decrees, etc. - Campaign map settlements/farms from Empire. The fact you can raid and destroy a regions farms, reducing the income and food for example, or destroying a university preventing their research - Armies without generals. Being able to send a few dragoon horse scouts ahead of your stack to scout, or raid some nearby points of interest. I loved having small skirmish battles in M2 or Empire. I loved recruiting native units during my British campaign in Empire and sending them to harass the French colonies and burn their trading outposts. - Similar to above, a non general unit getting the chance of earning experience and being able to earn a promotion. - Naval warfare and amphibious landings/battles. Imagine if you were able to bombard a settlement with your cannons from your ships while you send in marines to capture the walls during an Empire battle. One of the things I love from Rome 2 and Attila. - resource dependent mechanics like we have in Troy and Pharoah - multi-level sieges based on the size of the city or fortress like we had in M2 and Shogun 2 - ability to build forts and watchtowers like Rome and M2

[@AndysTake]

100%, no notes!

[@warhammon]

i agree 100% total war needs to take all the best aspects and combien them. the realisim/simulation of a dynamic world that each layer of interaction you have actually changes the economey/landscape/projection of entire empires with out having to commit every force

[@Skankhunt668]

Wow perfect list of what total war needs to do again i 100% agree on everything

[@nointernet5852]

Games suck when they're made to make money rather than for the love of it. I don't think it's much more complicated than that.

[@AndysTake]

Indeed, they are more likely to suck when money is the primary focus, for sure.

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

Beautiful! Spot on. No more games made by fans for fans sadly.

[@scionoftheemperor1240]

The Devs for the Warhammer Trilogy are very clearly massive and passionate Warhammer Fans

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

@@scionoftheemperor1240 So they could do more to improve the battle mechanism which is copy and paste of terrible one from Rome 2.... .

[@Mad_Sailor01]

Come on man, all games are made to make money. The games that do not make enough end up taking the game studios and at times the distributors down with them. Get Real, no one goes into gaming thinking about breaking even or losing money. Just how do you imagine they pay the developers or any of the bills for that matter? How do they keep the investors involved? What do they say to the shareholders all of whom are expecting to see returns on their investments. Anyone who believes otherwise has zero understanding of business.

[@Zquirrelthing]

i feel like the conversation would have been a lot better if it was just legend and apollo. would have probably been a lot less focused on pure hatred for total war, and more directed towards a productive conversation

[@captaintuna1323]

After Apollo made his “Quitting Total War” video however many years ago, i knew this would come eventually The videos just kind of felt like he was sulking, which sucked to see because I grew up watching Apollo

[@soomeguy5150]

Hes not happy playing games any more. All the new games coming out are mostly just the same thing over and over. Nothing to keep your interest for more than a few days before its on to the next.

[@Austin-sw3mf]

I don't get the argument that fantasy ruined TW. The Third Age mod was huge in the community when it came out, and I feel it created even more of a desire for a fantasy TW title to be made. WH1-3 have had some rough spots, but they've also given us a ton of fun experiences. I really want another good historical TW, but I also want more sci-fi and fantasy TW games. We can have both and still have fun.

[@Krayt002]

It’s 2024 and I find myself agreeing more with Legend than Apollo, how times have changed. (The other guy clearly is just some condescending mf)

[@KaiserOfPrussia0910]

While I do like Apollo’s channel, I must agree that at times he feels too much like a Total War puritan. He blames the downfall of CA on the fans who play the Warhammer games, not the company that can’t listen to the fans, and that makes him come out as snobby and better-than-you. He blames the downfall of the Total War franchise on the inclusion of fantasy purely because it is fantasy, when even some historical games have been (in my opinion) as bad as the worst of the Warhammer games. Because of this, he blames those who enjoy the fantasy elements of the Warhammer games, or Troy, not the company behind them Edit: To clear up some misconceptions in the replies, I do NOT like or enjoy the Warhammer games, nor is this comment a defense in their favor. This comment has nothing to do with the actual quality of the games. Only on Apollo’s opinions on the games, which I would like to thank him for clearing up some of the misconceptions I had, which I take responsibility for. No clue why the replies became a dick measuring contest on “who has played more Total War” though

[@PixelatedApollo1]

Thanks for pointing this out. You mentioned many misconceptions that I always see, and hopefully, I can clear some things up. First, "He blames the downfall of the Total War franchise on including fantasy purely because it is fantasy..." I Was excited about the announcement of Warhammer back in 2016. I enjoy fantasy, as you can tell from the countless Thrid Age videos I have on my channel. My issue is not that it is fantasy; my problem is that the mechanics are lazy and uninspiring. The same issue has bled into Pharoro and Troy. Historical games that I also dislike. Second, "He blames the downfall of CA on the fans who play the Warhammer games, not the company that can’t listen to the fans..." This is also not true; while I do not see eye to eye with most Warhammer fans or "New" Total War fans, I have mostly blamed CA for the current state of their games. The point I was trying to make in the "Total War has fallen" video was that the current fanbase is happy with the current state of the games, so they will not change, and CA will continue to make money and not improve the games. I wouldn't say that I am a Total War Puritan; I am just someone who wants to see CA innovate and create good games again. If Warhammer was its own separate thing and the other games were not affected by its lazy mechanics, I would not care, honestly.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@PixelatedApollo1 You called warhammer fans “lowest denominator” don’t ask questions type consumers. Even though we corrected CA over the Shadows of Change DLC. So what if we buy DLC, it’s really no one’s business what we do with it and we can spend it on whatever we want. It’s significantly less egregious than buying cosmetics for every season on Fortnite of Call of Duty. If we like the content we will buy it, Warhammer is not trying to appeal to historical battles and tactics, it’s a fantasy war game and we buy the stuff because it’s fun to roleplay our favorite characters. It’s not really that contentious if you think about it, we didn’t ask CA to make Troy, 3 Kingdoms, or Pharoah. You can sit there and act like you didn’t blame warhammer fans but your choices in words say otherwise, cut the gaslighting if you want to be taken seriously.

[@raed1642]

You obviously never watched or listened to any of his arguments, and he's right btw

[@raed1642]

​@@sercravenmohead3631go back to the totalwar subreddit, oh wait this channel is basically the same echo chamber

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@ I’ve probably played total war games longer than you have, y’all can’t take criticism at all. Go back to your safe space, over here we disagree. I have watched his videos, I enjoy his battles content and play throughs. I even have a comment with some likes and comments on his “CA has Fallen” video, I know exactly where he’s coming from and while I agree on the state of HISTORICAL total wars it’s simply not fair to compare apples and oranges with warhammer TW, clearly that game had different design choices intentionally to appeal to the warhammer fanbase. That’s why we play that game and not the other new games, we didn’t ask nor did we like Troy or Pharoah.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

Everyone in these comments just dislikes those guys personalities or ignores their arguments completely pretending they just dislike fantasy and not that they’re pointing out flaws in recent CA titles while a section of the fan base just enjoys the downgrade - which is why we have the downgrade. “Just let me enjoy” fans + lazy / uh creative company = recipe for Ubisoft tier production

[@notgoddhoward5972]

1000% correct. I like both warhammer(not the total war version just in general and total war). I just hate that it's not an actual game anymore but a caricature of one after Rome 2 and Attila days. And Ubislop has become the worst company ever, even surpassing EA somehow. Assassin's Creed 2 is still my favourite game. I hate modern Ubisoft so much I wish I was a billionaire just so I could buy them out and finish them.

[@AB-uq8yh]

The arguments are “I hate the game and you should too”. They are the minority. No one really cares what they say because of how they say it. You can want CA to make better games. But what they want is to the CA and anything new. It’s tedious, it’s not productive and they should move on.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

@ thanks for another clear example of those stupid comments I referred to. Their arguments are “these games have a lot of issues and we have to make a fuss about it and be fair when reviewing them else CA will continue to do it.” They’ve never given a dumb argument like that, that’s something only a dishonest person would say trying to discredit someone else. Learn to steel man your opposition If you’re just gonna give half thought, stupid , and/or dishonest comments like this then you may as well join the others and just comment under the video yourself.

[@AB-uq8yh]

@@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts did you listen to the podcasts? Did you play older TW games? It’s like you all exist in a vacuum. At the end of the day, no one cares what your side thinks because you just hate everyone that disagrees with you. Enjoy your older games, you don’t get a historical game anytime soon.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

@AB-uq8yh I hope everyone sees this guy for what he is doing - ignoring the actual argument and jumping straight to “you just hate the game and hate everyone who disagrees with you” no logic no reasoning no response to anything I’ve said, just repeat the same stupid line. Like I said, join your fellow idiots in the comments in refusing to actually discuss what many in the community think about modern TW and CA, continue pretending we’re a minority and no one cares, and continue “just enjoying” the games. I’ve played older and recent TW titles and I definitely notice a difference myself in what those games are relative to what came before and those complaints are valid. Honestly you’re probably a bot , I’ll stop responding.

[@quimble2177]

My man’s took very blatant jokes seriously and straight up said *volound*, a man that gleefully talks about the mechanical deepness of older games and how much he adores them and laments their loss in modern titles, someone that hates total war. Like, you seem confused why they’re so bitter and angry, they tried to point the bad shit out normally to CA for fucking years, Volound alone had hours of what are basically video essays about the mechanics in Rome 1, med 2, shogun 1, shogun 2, etc, they played nice, and it achieved fuck and all. I know because I’ve watched them both for long enough to see their transformation. The thing they love has been beaten, shot, stabbed and thrown of a cliff, and every time they’ve told the person doing it “hey that’s bad” the fucker doubled down. Of course they’re bitter. It ain’t rocket science.

[@AndysTake]

It’s okay to be bitter, just don’t take it out on other people who are not bitter. It’s very simple.

[@quimble2177]

@ the problem is however, when those people go “you just hate the game” as you do. How can someone assume that person is then being good faith? You yourself say Apollo and Volound just…hate total war but like, you know that ain’t true, the proof is there on their channels. Of course if you simply dismiss what someone says as them 100% hating the thing or as nostalgia they won’t be very happy, And I mean, man, I started with Rome 2 for god sakes in like 2015, but objectively I can tell that if you took Rome 1’s gameplay, updated the graphics and controls (and I mean more than the remaster) it’d be a 10/10. That is undeniable, they are simply better games that suffer with issues that come with being an old game

[@AndysTake]

@@quimble2177 I also think they’re better games, in fact that’s what *my* entire channel is based on. But I don’t make it my life’s work to denigrate people who just want to have fun, and who enjoy the games for what they are. I criticize the games and the choices of CA, without creating imaginary scape goats or ghosts for people to be scared of. Again, it’s very simple.

[@quimble2177]

@ the issue is, the fans allow the company to do things, it’s up to us to keep them in check and we…haven’t. They got away with Rome 2. They got away with Attila, they got away with Troy, they got away with Warhammer 1 being mid as hell. The first time I saw the TW fan base properly say no, was the shadow of change (I think that’s what it was called) DLC, where it, + pharaoh being (and still being frankly) mid if not bad actually caused some change, such as CA’s new DLC policy. Now, This is, to be fair, an issue with the wider gaming industry, it’s not TW unique, but at the end of the day it’s up to us to keep the company in check, and the “community”…hasn’t, so I can absolutely understand shitting on people for letting it happen. We do not need CA, CA needs US and up until recently many people seemingly forgot that.

[@AndysTake]

@@quimble2177 it’s categorically wrong to demonize people who have nothing to be demonized for. It’s likely that a minority of people who play TW games pay attention to the drama or any controversies at all. You will achieve nothing but becoming a worse person filled with unresolved anger and bitterness by creating enemies out of faceless masses. It does nobody any good. Hate the game, not the player, as they say.

[@Clyde92]

Only listened to the piece on Legend’s channel but I agree….they were bullying Legend into seeing their way. Was not a productive discussion

[@harrycook3056]

You are doing yourself a disservice, the least hounding part against legend Was the first part, Volounds part. And keep in mind, legend asked them to have a go at him in parts 2 and 3. Def watch part 1 tho, it's not at all focused on the Individual talking points.

[@christophercao3671]

As someone who has played TW since the mid 2000s starting with Rome Total War on a shitty Dell laptop and continued to play countless titles such as Medieval II, Empire, Napoleon, Rome II and Warhammer III, i don’t understand the logic behind people just not letting others enjoy what they like to play. Every single video game title that has ever been released in the history of Video Games have flaws one way or another. It all comes down to opinion. People nowadays forget that Opinion is not Fact. It seems to me that Apollo and company just dont enjoy the games anymore like they used to and are most likely burned out by them and are just jealous that others are still enjoying them like they used to in their past. Ive fallen victim to burnout as well for certain title games due to binge playing them for months at a time. Just take a break from it and eventually you will get the urge to want to play it again.

[@alejandrosilva528]

In the end the only message that people seems to have take of this discussion is that a bunch of old players dislike fantasy because fantasy instead of reaching the core of the problem. Quite a lot of the warhammer total war fans only play total war games because is warhammer, nothing else, they dont care if other games are better or have better systems because is not warhammer. And that kind of player is one that is used to eat shit from GW, CA offer a product that is less shity and cheaper with the posiblity of mods. I don blame the fans of warhammer to play the game, what i hate is have a bunch of players telling me warhammer is the best total war game because ii have unit variety, heroes, fantasy beast and magic

[@gunny557gaming3]

Its weird for me because apollow got me into total war. Like the only problem i have is you cant play us in empire total war without a mod in grand conquest

[@OvercomingAndThriving]

Am in two minds about this, I been watching Volund videos for some time now, and he does raises a lot of very solid points. CA has been downgrading the series, it's been a thing since Rome 2, and it's so blatantly obvious the fault lies with the developers and the management of the company. Then you get the seething bitter hated aimed at the Warhammer community, it's not really their fault, CA was going downhill all while Warhammer TW was just a mere rumor. and part 2 of the discussion was mostly just Apollo and Volund mugging off LOTW. Anybody with half a sense of social awareness could see that. It's toxic, and just encourages me to just allow what it currently happening now to continue ... like ok, we have more fantasy games then? Bye now. The community needs to band together, and it's doable, it's Volund and Apollo who sabotaging the concept itself, they want to champion the "true total war experience" and both parties would benefit to pressuring CA into giving the series and the community the respect it deserves, the truth is, neither of them actually believes it can be done, they given up and both of them admired that in part 1, now it's just degraded to schoolyard politics. We need to do better than this.

[@MedjayofFaiyum]

This is the era of total war: fandom civil war

[@TheCleanerDragon]

Now what would the dream blunt rotation be? 🤔

[@j0hncarp]

Koi Fish, Turin, HeirofCarthage. Pilps maybe. Andy here

[@thunderbagel3886]

There's a weird little corner of TW KZbin, helmed by Volund and I guess includes Apollo now too, that just seethes constantly at modern TW games and trash talks anyone that doesn't join in on their circle jerk of misery. I slowly backed away after finding it and have never looked back

[@AndysTake]

glad to hear you caught on early! Always love reading your comments

[@YeetThyBaby]

Volound is a putridly vile creature and it's really disappointing seeing people associate with him tbh

[@AndysTake]

@@YeetThyBaby I agree the association is very disappointing

[@JediLordNathan]

Me too. Volound is a vicious nihilist who hates people that like anything he hates not to mention the bastard attacked me personally so screw Volound I ignore him because the guy is a vile nihilistic bastard who uses his platform to spread more nihilism into a world that has enough of it as is.

[@Mad_Sailor01]

How about Lord of the Rings, or Game of Thrones or even Victoria.? I would like to see a revamped Empire, Napoleon or even Medieval Ii would be nice but honestly there are so many really good remakes not sure there is enough money to be made by CA to actually make a reasonable return on investment.

[@81k-z8m]

I honestly did not understand why Legend kept indulging them and kept the "discussion" alive for so long while being the only rational person in the room. It was so painful to listen to, felt like an eternity. Anyway, I agree with your points. Just hope people would stop using this rant format. Please make structured content. Time is priceless.

[@copeduchaine2398]

I do like Apollo and think he means well and wishes the franchise to be better (like we all do). But yeah it’s kinda crazy to see how much visceral hate he has for warhammer/pharaoh without actually playing it is wild. It’s hard to trust an opinion when there’s no experience behind that opinion.

[@aaronlewis702]

They're right though. The series in terms of game mechanics has gone to shit, lots of bells and whistles, but it's a far inferior series than it omce was. Doesn't matter if you don't like their attitude, their argument is undeniable.

[@AndysTake]

@@aaronlewis702 I lead mostly the same arguments. That’s not what this video is about.

[@joebonaparte1490]

I’m so old my first total war game was shogun. Then the mongol invasion dlc I fell in love on day one one once I figured out how to play. I was 14. I loved every game up till Rome 2 I liked it but didn’t love it. I do hope medieval 3 does come out with the same mechanics as the second one

[@khal7702]

Three Kingdoms isn't bad, Hero thing is bit much but U can play in regular mode, tho it wasn't designed for that. Pharaoh Dynasties is pretty good tho

[@joebonaparte1490]

@ when I get my better computer I’m going to try it. The hero thing did take away and I love love love navel battles even if it’s clunky.

[@nomooon]

@@khal7702 hero is not a problem, the problem is lack of heroes. I also played KOEI Three Kingdoms games extensively, and the lack of heroes in Three Kingdoms makes the game feel pretty empty.

[@jaywerner8415]

It won't, and we all know it.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

Rome 2 was the turning point for Total war. Or rather the point of no return. It was not a game it was a product. The game didn't match the marketing they provided. I still prefer to play Empire with no Mods over anything past Warhammer 1.

[@izymandius3822]

dont get me wrong i prefer historical total war games but warhammer total war is also really fun most likely for my bias toward warhammer as a entirety..... however i also REALLY need a CA made lord of the rings total war

[@LJD442]

These two boys are very young I feel like and haven't learned how to see prospective or nuance. Legend was very diplomatic and I really respect his calm engagement. Great commentary Andy!

[@AndysTake]

Thank you! I do believe these «two boys» are in their mid thirties or something though :)

[@HeloisGevit]

They're manchildren that never grew up

[@maxbenjim2243]

Would love to voice chat with you about some of this. I don't like Apollo or Volound, particularly the way they treat alternative viewpoints and whether they will listen to them or at least agree that it is reasonable to hold. The main thing I want to point out is that people highly under-rate two things about CA and their expectations of CA: 1. People that worked on previous games but didn't continue on or institutionalize their knowledge of how to engineer and design the things that made previous titles have a strong "fit" between mechanics and gameplay with them. If those people don't work there anymore, or couldn't quantify their knowledge into new updates to the engine, there's no way to just will the game to rise above those technical limitations on what people want it to do and be and become. 2. People don't realize these technical limitations and the implication of what trancending them means. We're talking about CA asking Sega for big money to invest in a new engine that has design and programming tools that allow depth of function and breadth of scope to get this genre to where people are demanding it. I do want that, but it is hard to see that going the way Volound or Apollo would have it, just because they whine and scoff about it and bemoan that they are not respected and valued for their opinions, even though they are not rolling up their sleeves like modders or people like the DarthMod team making their own series of games that at least aspire to make what they say they want. It is hard work! One of the reasons there are breakthroughs and joy out of previous games being modded, is because people who love them, are willing to work long and hard for free ! to learn far more than CA devs may have ever envisioned about the engine of Med2, Atilla, etc, to push the limits and expand the scope of those limited games into amazing heights like what's coming with Dawnless Days and more. But it takes time to dig through those systems, and what companies are willing to allow under the hood of their proprietary technology. People like Volound stirring up brigades of contempt and discontent, are never going to be willing to put real skin into this pursuit like that.

[@sandsiren4840]

Listen I’m a passionate person so I get that people can express their love or their hate of a game loudly, where it goes to shit is when they start almost like attacking people for having a different preference. Like then it’s a bit too intense…

[@Mad_Sailor01]

Sorry to bring politics into this discussion but this is what the Dems have become; their own stupid echo chamber where no opinion but their own is acceptable. I have many Dem friends but have found they are rarely able to actually support any position with logic. With many it is pure emotion. Love them all, but as an engineer I stick to logic. If CA wants to Stan in business in the long term they MUST grow their market share. They need to exploit every revenue stream they can find, be that carbon copy games or cosmetic DLCs. No company stays in business without making their investors and stockholders happy and CA is no exception. If we want to see them continue making the games we seem to love to hate we better support them by continuing to support them. Can they improve, sure but what is more important in continuing to find ways to meet their bottom line while hopefully producing a gem of a new games that we all enjoy. Anyone who says different is simply being naive, or has zero understanding of how business actually works.

[@TheRingoism]

I've never been much a fan of Apollo and Volund but I agree with them on Total War and I'd like someone to explain to me why battles are good, post Rome 2. and what went wrong with this engine 11 years ago.

[@kielweiss3606]

You say "post-R2" when all TW games have been using the same battle engine since 2009 that was introduced with Empire. The engine was lambasted in '09 but instead of making a new engine after Napoleon they kept it for Shogun 2. S2 and FotS ended up being solid so it was forgotten but the engine collapsed under the weight of Rome 2 and every game since has had to deal with it. History out of the way, battles aren't any better or worse than they were before. Volound DOES do a good job show casing some coding that didn't get put into the Warscape Engine that was in the R1 engine like front units stepping out of the way of rear units trying to March thru them, but that's niche shit that wouldn't be marketed in the first place. Maps have just been made smaller to make battles faster so more battles can be fought in the same time span. Magic and monsters replaced Cav in WH which is fun in a fantasy game.

[@TheRingoism]

@@kielweiss3606 Pretty sure I replied to you but in essence I told you I knew about the engine coming in with Empire but someone decided to fuck with it during Rome 2 and every game has been shit since.

[@MichaelThomas-p6q]

you together with the terminator form the creator minority of people who actually played dynasties. edit: i think reptilicus as well, now I am less sure about the terminator

[@jarjars3261]

I mean I don't like what CA has been doing the last decade either but I just stick to the old titles and ignore the newer titles (post-Atilla) for the remainder. Pick and choose what you like, ignore the rest. Especially when it comes to things that are supposed to be fun.

[@AndysTake]

this is the way

[@zachnucum8556]

It is sad hearing arguments just hating on people rather than the game.

[@xx-knight-xx2119]

I think the warhammer franchise has made some great changes to total war in general with the controls and ui but I think the best benefit of the warhammer franchise is its popularity. If CA does med 3 or nepoleon 2, or empire and the game is well made and recived well.If they make it the best of both worlds it will sore in terms of sells. Warhammer brought a lot of people into the franchise and Im sure lots of people are like me in that I have a hard time going back to play games that are great but old and have clunky controls and the ui is a little harder to understand and what not. A modern historical title with the big changes that warhammer made was bring the historical and fanasty players together.

[@Freeartisan]

Regardless of Legend's play style, I just watch his streams sometimes as a side thing while I do my work stuff or light gaming. The interesting thing about his streams to me is to listen to his opinions on the game or dev struggles managing this game, because he does respond to his chat more than needed. The talk series is fine to have. More added opinions.

[@ivanjurcevic259]

It's okay to to enjoy what you enoy. Wise words

[@RogueRanks]

You weren’t kidding about nightmare blunt rotation good hell… fantastic response couldn’t agree more!

[@AndysTake]

Appreciate it!

[@tahahadada1936]

I don't see the issue with Total war TW Empire is the only issue ,but other than that all games are liked by thousands . I don't 3k ,I don't like Troy I don't like pharoh ,I don't like medieval 2 and Rome 1 or the remastered but that doesn't mean they are bad games.

[@wibblewolf4136]

The conversation went as it was abysmal. I think Legend wanted a more nuanced discussion about TW, but I believe MonstersAbound, Loremaster of Sotek, Cody Bonds, and The Great Book of Grudges would have been hands down better for that - including yourself. The way TW is developing the games makes it feel like they are testing the waters to see what works and what doesn't, especially with the fan base. With Warhammer 3, it is clear that they are polishing the game and keeping the DLC going. There is plenty of DLC that they can do-if the rumours are correct, Warhammer 40k, and Medieval 3 are on the table, I mean we have been waiting years for the next Eldar Scrolls. Also, that discussion shows the type of persons that PP and esp V are - especially the vile comments - and I think that speaks volumes - hypocrites and all.

[@generalsqueezy9489]

Could you please make a narrative video? I’ve rewatched the existing ones so many times.

[@AndysTake]

that's kind of you! I definitely will consider it :) been trying to think of something to make it on

[@generalsqueezy9489]

@ Anyone would be great of course, but I think it would be interesting to see one on Pharao dynasties because there’s not a lot of content on campaign yet.

[@GrandAdmThrawn]

Legend is a legend, and is spot on almost all the time.

[@daseafrate2025]

When you go on the "total war" subreddit you'll find people talking about "Total war 2". "Total war 2" became warhammer 2 for so many people like the historical game dont even exist. That's just sad

[@TheBaralinChannel]

It isn't just sad. People like Warhammer and that's the only Total War they care about. I've grown up on the old games but one has to realize that times change. If they have an interest in history, maybe they'll check out Shogun 2 and Rome. If not, then who gives a shit. Literally, who gives a shit? How do the games people play affect you in any way?

[@notgoddhoward5972]

I knew the "it's over" days were ahead when they announced they were renaming all their games to put "total war" in the beggining of the game title. Imagine if there was nevere a ROME total war but Total war Rome, if there was no NAPOLEON total war but "Total War 6 - 1812 Campaing 'something something'". They lost the plot a decade ago with Rome 2 and never came back. Still waiting for the "We are so back" days but I think that ain't happening in my lifetime.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

@@TheBaralinChannel And the worst part is it's not even a bad game. It's just a terrible TOTAL WAR. Like I can see why so many people attach to it because it's the only high production game about WH fantasy that exists for people. The tabletop is dead for longer than I have been alive at this point I think and other studios couldn't make a game this huge even if they had the money and rights.

[@jtoegi]

love the title lmaoooo

[@Redbeardian]

I love all the total war games I've played so far. Shogun 2, Med 2, Rome 2, 3 Kingdoms, Empire, Napoleon, Attila, Warhammer 1 2 and 3. and now Pharaoh Dynasties. My only gripe is that my hard drive cant hold them all at once. I can only have 3 of them at a time and one other big game, like Fallout 4. Warhammer 3 immortal empires is by far my most favorite game ever of any genre.

[@nomooon]

luckily we only need to install warhammer 3. Imagine having to install all 3, that's 150 gb just for the base games....

[@Dabelcrap]

Thank you so much for speaking like this. I used to be a fan of Apollo but I later found him to be excesively ranty even when he was not making discussion videos, he ranted on every video all the time. All he could ever say was that Rome and Medieval II were masterpieces and then he actually brought those games on his channel and found a lot of bugs or weird things, like horses breaking pikes face-on; and then he never played them again. It was like he couldn't even acknowledge that he's only talking nostalgia about games which even now he does not want to play, because it's not what it used to be even for him. Everything old is good, everything new is bad. They're just like children, there's people who just can't grow up.

[@AndysTake]

@@Dabelcrap thank you so much for saying that, makes videos like these worth it :) and yeah, that’s what the podcasts suggests, anyway, I agree. Hopefully he can change. Do you have the link to the video/stream you’re talking about? Would be interesting to see

[@Dabelcrap]

​@@AndysTake I will try to find it, it was a video or stream from a couple years ago, either way I don't recall him ever uploading Rome remastered again before that and I think he gave up on every campaign he started. He usually performs poorly on campaign and it shows he isn't used to play the games appart from online battles. Thanks for the bump btw, love your videos, keep it up!

[@sercravenmohead3631]

It’s all getting to be too pretentious from these guys except Legends, just say you don’t like warhammer and their fans just to be done with it. These guys say they’re done with the franchise but here they are crying about it some more. Apollo literally called warhammer fans lowest denominator don’t ask questions type consumers. First of all we corrected CA on the shadows of Change DLC when it was lackluster, but as for buying content we actually want who cares? They’re just mad they got replaced and there isn’t enough juice in the historical community to justify making another historical title. I’ve played nearly all their games, we didn’t twist CA’s arm to make Troy and Pharoah or 3 Kingdoms.. we didn’t like those games either. Warhammer TW didn’t get popular because of the warhammer franchise, Tabletop fantasy got discontinued in favor for more 40k and the fantasy side had a handful of decent games so it’s not like CA had guaranteed success, out of all the Warhammer content they chose the one Gamesworkshop doesn’t even support anymore which is why they probably got the green light to do it because if it flopped it would be low risk to GW. Now Warhammer TW is popular and Fantasy Tabletop was brought back officially and revitalized the Warhammer fantasy setting! Go ahead and nitpick “oh I talked to this tabletop fan and they said they hated WHTW”, the overwhelming majority of warhammer fans love these games. Nothing really competes in the RTS genre, the only fantasy RTS out there that I can think of for fantasy is Mark of Chaos and it just doesn’t come close.

[@lunaris3983]

Personally I think making fantasy games was genius and, despite a lot of bumps along the way, Warhammer III is among the greatest Total War games. There's just so many unique mechanics and roleplaying opportunities.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

only if you like jank where a single hero can slay entire army dbz style just not serious ...

[@Lanthirrhos]

@@jessicalacasse6205 You may need to play more total war games. the number of times a single general until can route an entire army... or a stack of peasants can beat almost any other army in the game... And jank? Pick literally any total war. Don't be an Apollo and Volound. Whatever game you like best aint any better shit than what OP liked.

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@Lanthirrhos rome to rome2 general were like king in chess were losing it lost you the battle and the fact i need to explain this to you mean you only played warhammer with flying infantry if you look them wrong ...

[@jessicalacasse6205]

@@Lanthirrhos so many vids of 1 man doomstack ...

[@walnutpants3600]

Not correct, I have many fond memories lf soloing full enemy armies with my generals in Rome 1 and Medieval 2. Literally the most powerful units in the game.

[@samuelaylmer804]

I can’t believe that anyone watched through the videos, I got 30 mins in to one and then realised my time is more valuable than most of the opinions shared.

[@Preussensprinz]

No bro you are no skeptic you literally shilled CA until the winds started to turn away after Shadows of Change

[@AndysTake]

@@Preussensprinz you haven’t watched a single video of mine huh, nor do you know what «shilled» means

[@addochandra4745]

@@AndysTake No need, your videos mostly just marketing for games. Unlike LoTW, Surrealbeliefs, and Pixelated Apollo, You don't do Let's Play, Narrative-Cinematic, or MP Commentary. You did a few streams but not as much as LoTW. Show us your skill maann!!! Impress Us!!!! Make Let's Play Series, do more streams or whatever instead of just be a Marketing tool of Game Companies!!!

[@AndysTake]

@@addochandra4745 exactly, you haven’t watched anything, so you don’t know anything. In other words your comment means nothing and is just bait

[@AzamatoTheGreat]

It's not that deep bro.. You're unironically taking it more serious than they do

[@AndysTake]

@@AzamatoTheGreat nope! I assure you, they take this extremely seriously. Don’t fool yourself.

[@reddeaddovahkiin]

Young Graham Hancock talking about total war, hell yeah.

[@lovelybitofsquirrel8272]

I'm very surprised Legend never talked about the actual IP of Warhammer also being a massive factor. I can guarantee if Warhammer was Lord of the rings/middle earth skinned instead of Warhammer Apollo would of creamed his pants for these games. sometimes the IP is just interesting enough that you overlook issues. for example I wouldn't be happy at all with a star wars total war but I know plenty of people who would throw money at CA to play a game like that. and Volund..... we he's Volund, like that one guy at school who thinks he's gods gift to gaming and never grew up or realised that everyone else around him grew up and left him behind. and I say this as a Historical total war player who also enjoys Warhammer but can see its faults. most fans just want the games to be deeper and more complex. battles to be more tactical, grounded and engaging and of course without all the little bugs that make battles like sieges so infuriating to player (gate bug, units not being responsive, units getting pulled back into combat, unit pathfinding such as going through a gate instead of up a siege tower). we just want what we HAD but with the benefit of new technology to enjoy it.

[@AndysTake]

@@lovelybitofsquirrel8272 absolutely, and I think you’re so hitting the nail on the head there - so much of loving a game is the vibes, setting and atmosphere, and you can forgive sooo much if you enjoy the general vibe of a game. It’s why to me, honestly I don’t think I would’ve loved Napoleon nearly as much as I do, if the music on the campaign map hadn’t created that very special, very melancholic and nostalgic atmosphere, it kinda makes everything else come together. Sometimes a single feature like that makes the entire difference.

[@r31n0ut]

I didn't watch the discussion that far but holy shit what a pair of elitist snobs. 'hur dur I'm so smart and anyone who likes a thing I don't like isn't worthy to kiss my feet.'

[@AndysTake]

basically what it sounds like at times

[@Owlr4ider]

@Andy's Take why are you being so disingenuous in this video? You fully understand where Volound and Apollo are coming from, you even agree with most of their points. You don't like their harsh language, that's fine, but the way you dismiss their arguments due to said language is just pathetic. For example in the portion on Oblivion vs Warhammer. You fully understood what they were saying and your own example is just flat out false. No, Warhammer did not push the envelope, at all! In fact it went backwards, and you know it. Yes Warhammer added magic, dragons and monsters to Total War but that's not pushing the envelope, that's like putting icing on a cake. It doesn't change the cake itself. Oblivion pushed the envelope, Bethesda went where no RPGs went before, in terms of scale, NPC behavior, etc. What did Warhammer do to push the envelope? What new mechanics did it add to the existing formula? And I mean game mechanics not the faction specific stuff like Oath Gold for the Dwarves which are again fluff more than anything else. The battles themselves have consistently been dumbed down, the same awful province system from Shogun 2 has remained the same if not gotten even worst rather than iterated upon and improved, diplomacy is still dogshit despite Three Kingdoms taking massive leaps in that direction, the AI still relies on massive cheats to actually be able to play the game, etc. Making progress in any of these vectors, or others as these were just a few examples, would have been pushing the boundaries of what Total War is. That is simply not what Warhammer did. Look, I like Warhammer too, though unlike you I'm not blind to its faults nor have any problems acknowledging them. As you said, we are human beings, we're allowed to enjoy fast food every now and than, going back to the food analogies mentioned here and in the original videos, rather than just steak dinners or fancy seafood platters. Enjoying fast food doesn't change the fact that fast food is still fast food, that's the part you're having trouble with for whatever reason. Warhammer is objectively a bad Total War game. It doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed, but it doesn't change the fact that the game's foundations are terrible. Likewise Pharaoh is an objectively terrible game, which suffers from the exact same issues as Warhammer just without all the fluff so what you're left with is just a terrible cake without the icing to make it more palatable. You don't actually have to play Pharaoh to reach this conclusion as it's obvious from just looking at others playing/reviewing it, just form your own opinion based on what you see from how others are engaging with Pharaoh and the package itself which you can clearly see or read on from the wiki, reddit, forums, etc, which explain all the mechanics and whatnot which are the key factors in objectively determining whether the game is good or not. Enjoyment is subjective, the mechanics themselves are objective. And it's not just the hp system, it's also how formations work(under the hood that is) and many other aspects of combat. And combat isn't the only mechanic that has been dumbed down either, just 1 major example.

[@AndysTake]

Absolutely not, the only "objective" aspect of the mechanics is that they exist. "This game has population numbers that mimick realism" is an objective aspect, "this game has a population system, and that is a good thing" is a subjective opinion. Understand the difference. Not everybody likes a population system, but even though I think it is better, I won't hate an audience for disagreeing with me.

[@Owlr4ider]

@@AndysTake I wasn't just talking about the population system which is long gone but actual mechanics that still exist like the battles themselves. The change from the all or nothing system of earlier total war games to the hp system(not the single digit values of Rome1/Medieval 2 but the modern iteration) was a massive step backwards and that's the main reason Medieval 2 battles feel the best in the series and why battles in Rome 1 are vastly superior to Rome 2. The mechanical difference is objective, the fact that the current system is arcady is also objective. Whether you prefer an arcady system or a realistic one is indeed subjective but that's not the point. For the setting of Total War arcady systems are objectively a step backwards. Objectively speaking the current system is dumbed down from the old, from a mechanical perspective, that is objective. Again, you can prefer to eat fast food rather than a steak dinner but it doesn't change the fact that a steak dinner is a much higher quality meal than fast food.

[@crucibleclips]

@@Owlr4ider correct analysis. the gameplay is worse, and the GW cope is "historical hates fantasy" instead of realizing "gameplay sucks and lacks key features" which is the core criticism. Look at the popular mods on the classic games, no one cared about hobbits in TW.

[@Joeybanananas]

This is a long essay, but what did oblivion do that morrowind didn't do before it, and in a lot of ways better?

[@Owlr4ider]

@@Joeybanananas Oblivion took Morrowind and pushed it further. Sure, it was a 2 steps forward 1 step back kind of situation but there are a lot of differences between Oblivion and Morrowind... This isn't an Oblivion essay but lets just say that Bethesda, despite their many, many, many, flaws, did advance RPGs forward perhaps more than any other company out there.

[@guidokreeuseler9566]

I don't put a lot of stock in Pixelated Apollo's opinion on this. The guy questions other's intelligence but can barely read or retain information himself. I used to watch his content a few years ago but got extremely annoyed by him apparently needing to relearn the same game over and over in each episode of a campaign as if he never played it before. Also, he has been on the Total War Hate-train since at least 2016. I think Legend has the wiser take in the "Total War ain't doing well" discourse. Doesn't disparage Warhammer or fantasy, but has a more systemic critique of the recent design and release strategy of total war.

[@jaywerner8415]

Apollo.... is clearly still living in the Early 2000s. And I don't think he will ever stop living their. Everyone knows Volound is an ASSHOLE, but far as his critics of TW go, He is NOT WRONG. It certainly feels that way anyway. And Legend, what can I say he just likes pushing the game to its limits. Says more about him then the Current State of Total War. A Remaster of Med 2 would be a LIGHTING BOLT FROM GOD right now for Total War and CA. Its just like.... Why would you Remaster Rome 1 and not Remaster Med 2? Maybe they are waiting for an Anniversary or something? The fact of the matter is, TOTAL WAR HAS CHANGED and alot of people take issue with the WAYS in which Total War HAS CHANGED. And well.... CA has also changed, they are not the same CA that gave us Shogun through Med 2. Want to know WHY Empire is looked back on with at least SOME praise? Cus it is pretty clear it was PUSHING what Total War could do. Shogun 2 and Fall of the Samauri PUSHED what TW could be (still Flawed, be it was so good we kinda glossed over them) Rome 2 and Attila where the LAST Total War games that Felt like TOTAL WAR GAMES to me. Warhammer is in its Own Category, its own Realm, its own Niche. Do I like it? Not really, but I can see WHY people like the Warhammer Trilogy. The Closest I think CA got to WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT, was 3Kingdoms, Sort of. Cus obviously Historical mode Sucks and the Mythology mode is too "Warhammer" Like. Which brings me to my next point, Ever since WH 1 came out, their has been this SHIFT from playing as a Nation State to playing as a Character, of a race, of a Sub Faction, of a Faction, like we are playing a RPG. I feel like this only REALLY works during say a time of Civil War or Internal Conflict. Such as FOR EXAMPLE, the French Revolution. Here I am thinking TW is supposed to about Running a Nation and its Military to achieve whatever your Victory goals happen to be. Be it Military, Economic or Cultural Victory. But then we also have all these "design choices" dating back to ROME 2 that have NOT CHANGED in over a Decade now, like how Cities and Provinces work despite the fact that people have made their Criticism with those choices quite clear.

[@Mad_Sailor01]

In many ways it has changed for the better. I own every total war game since the beginning including all of the DLCs. The current economy models are much more nuanced than in the early games and the campaign maps are stunning. Battles seem about the same and while Warhammer games are not my favorite titles I have enjoyed them as a change. For me I always seem to go back to Rome II, Medieval II, Napoleon and Empire but I like Shogun II, Troy and Pharaoh for the differences and additional challenges. I think the folks spouting off about this are much to do about nothing and do not understand how stock companies work even a little bit. No developer or distributor makes games for the fun of it. They all have stockholders, profit margins and return on investment to consider. People that think otherwise are just DUMB; just sayin!

[@thedisturbed1114]

Great video Andy your the best person out of this rotation! :)

[@AndysTake]

Thank you so much for watching and for the kind comment!

[@Kskdjdndndnndididjd]

CA is rubbing there hands together right now cackling saying yes yes there Tearing each other apart

[@AB-uq8yh]

No, CA is just reinforcing their opinion to ignore the historical side of the community. These two presented themselves as hate-filled idiots and it justifies not listening to them.

[@nathanfee9644]

Interesting! Agree here and this video probably will get attention you aren't desiring, but you know this. Total War is not alcoholism and even bringing it up is absurd and lowers any legitimacy the point may have had. Somewhat bold to do this video. I like it! Thanks for the video!

[@AndysTake]

thank you, nathan!

[@Swedish_Napoleon]

Never did I ever imagine that we would have Total War KZbin feuds😂

[@Sarcasmses]

Lots of lost people out there. Many look to video games for what little meaning they can gather into their lives, or as a simple distraction from their complete lack of meaning. Hope we all have something else in our lives other than video games, because games will eventually get worse, and you'll eventually get bored of them. They really aren't worth this much of our thinking time.

[@AndysTake]

True enough!

[@notgoddhoward5972]

I almost let our cat destroy the house because I left a door open that I shouldn't have because I was playing Teutoburg in Rome Total War back in the day when I was a kid. I got chewed out like hell but it was worth it. So it all depends on the perspective. But if you can't even put a reload animation into a game comming out in 2020+ with millions of dollars behind it when a 2004 game had details like that in the dozens I don't know what to tell you. Immersion is everything for total war.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@notgoddhoward5972 one of the laziest copy-pasted criticisms of the game out there. ONE unit out of, what, fifty, in ONE faction out of 15 or something, doesn't have a reload animation that you don't even notice because you're normally zoomed out while playing the game. Is that a GOOD thing? No, obviously not - it would indeed be better if it had a reload animation. HOW MUCH better would the game be? Like, 0.000000001% better. It's a complete non-issue that doesn't show up in 95% plus of the battles you fight, and it's the one criticism people like you keep repeating like it's a real zinger.

[@notgoddhoward5972]

@BittermanAndy Your reply sounds like cope I'm sorry. Why bother with making detailed units at all? Just make pixel squares instead and same result. And it's not one singular unit, what are you talking about? I have enough hours in total war Warhammer perhaps more than you do.

[@BittermanAndy]

@@notgoddhoward5972 "sounds like cope", are you seven years old? Not that it's a competition, but I have 1142 hours in Warhammer 3. You might have more, many do... but if you do... the lack of a reload animation on Empire Handgunners evidently hasn't spoiled the game for you THAT much, has it? WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT. You're playing it for hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, presumably because you ENJOY it, and are still whining about one missing animation.

[@xx-knight-xx2119]

I love warhammer for the setting and you can do things in warhammer you could never do in a historical total war. The use of magic to turn the tide of a battle the use of indiviuals as overpowered but not to overpowered units where you can build movie like scenes from. Warhammer and historical fill two different niches and theres no reason we cant have both. Historical and fantasy can borrow from eachother to make the other better. Yes i wouldn't want magic or generals without bodygaurds or special abilities but thats why i have warhammer. CA just needs to make the two distinct from each other but that doesn't mean that CA cant do both great.

[@AndysTake]

Exactly. At the end of the day, these are design choices, and I think Pharaoh Dynasties goes a long way in showing that Sophia really tried to turn that engine and game towards a much more historical and traditional approach again, even though it’s not perfect.

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

Gotta say its a bit ironic that Apollo never named any total war youtuber and yet here you are bashing him by name for the crime of... bashing total war youtubers. The thing is, free speech goes both ways. Apollo and Volound can think a game is objectively bad. You can disagree. Legend can kind of agree and also disagree. Yes its okay to enjoy what you enjoy. Its also okay to not think people should enjoy something or not understand why they do.

[@sureucan9366]

Facts and he probably won't like your comment for common sense

[@sandsiren4840]

By your same logic he can also make a video on their approach.

[@thesiberianproductions3748]

@sandsiren4840 yup, which is why I just said I found it ironic, not that he is shouldn't or can't make the video

[@sandsiren4840]

@ u kinda missed tho point tho, the argument is “let’s not attack people for their preferences”

[@AndysTake]

Apollo - a creator with over 900k subscribers (I have 68k) - put himself out there with controversial language, and I make a response to him. I cannot make a response if people have no idea who I'm talking about, Apollo's entire game with those videos is getting views, and likely, to get responses like mine. I didn't mention one word on free speech, what are you even referring to here? Also, it's not ironic at all to say "stop bullying people" to a bully - that's not the same as bullying someone. This isn't difficult to understand.

[@emile4249]

7:02 Pinned comment on Ledgends vid he explained why they where grilling him about warhammer.

[@getsomeboy321]

Warhammer is a good time but there is something special about historical titles. The older ones have some really cool mechanics that have disapeared. Also naval battles are cool.

[@AndysTake]

Agreed!

[@darkrite9000]

I don't think you have to play something to give an opinion on it, or to even have the right opinion on it. But I do think that playing a game yourself does give you more insight and more validation, essentially because you played it, you should have a better idea of how good it is or isn't. That said, you don't need to play a game to have a well-informed opinion on it, even if you've never personally played a game, if you have watched others play it enough, you'd know the game fairly well regardless of having not played it much yourself. That said while Legend has offered his opinion on Pharaoh before, it was a more neutral take, he has no interest in it, and while he doesn't like the look of it, he isn't going to go into detail because he doesn't play it. And I think that is a good way to handle it. Also I do generally agree with Legend, Total War is the combination of campaign and battles. And so to me, campaign mechanics are very important, and Paradox games are the masters of grand strategy. So seeing Total War take a page from their book is good. Because honestly, if Paradox made a game that kept the depth of the campaigns that we're used to seeing from them, but added real time battles, even if they weren't as good as Total War's, Total War would end up having a major problem competing with them. Overall I think Total War needs the battles to be good enough, and for the most part they are. But they shouldn't let themselves fall short, like they did with Troy. Have solid battles, that you can use tactics in and overcome the odds if your tactics are good enough, things should visually match with what's happening, so a shield wall should look like a shield wall, you shouldn't pull ladders from a pocket dimension. Things like that, and then on top of that you have in-depth campaign mechanics as well as a decent multiplayer experience. Multiplayer is the least important aspect, but if you just give a little bit to them, it makes things so much better. Avatar Conquest for Shogun 2, or the fact we finally got up to 8 player campaigns for Warhammer 3. Because the AI can only do so much in battles and on campaign without massive cheats, it's better to have enough there for multiplayer so that people can play with friends and get the experience they want.

[@Zhongda95]

First, I don't think that you disagree with them as much as you declare to. They also acknowledge that total war games have always been flawed. The thing is they never evolved as much as they expected to, based on what they got with the old titles, in all their technical limitations. As for the battles, their point exactly is that battles were not merely a spectacle at all. They were a chance for the player to turn the tide in their favour through tactical superiority. I haven't played the most recent games and I initially wouldn't understand the hate but from what I understand, battles have become less tactics-oriented and more stats oriented, making them essentially interchangable with auto-resolve, something that was NOT the case in the old games. Finally, when you mention how often Total War games come out in the last years, do you actually think this is a good thing? I wonder, do all these people who declare how much they can't wait for the next historical total war setting actually have the time to invest in each of the newer titles as much as they would in the old ones? Imagine if instead of a half-assed game per year we got a complete one in every three years. But it looks like they are deliberately not doing this, because it's more important for them to keep selling stuff that never hit the mark so that the fanbase asks for more, and this seems to have become a theme in various once beloved video game franchises as well. Seriously, do gamers really have all the time to invest in every game they are supposedly waiting for, when we already have way too many? Do total war fans actually prefer to spend their time auto-resolving battles in multiple games that simply shift from one setting to another, rather than wait for one game that will actually give them a good reason to play these battles? I think that's closer to the spirit of what PA tries to say as a romantic who once fantasized about how much better the new total wars would be, and how regardless of wether the new ones are objectively bad games or not, they just seem to become increasingly irrelevant and indifferent to the old fans who have become disillusioned by CA's bad practices.

[@AndysTake]

What you’ll notice in the video and from most of my video catalogue is that I actually don’t disagree with them on the substance of the debate as it relates to the quality of the games. What I do disagree with is their approach to the discussion, they way they demonized people for liking something they don’t. That’s where I draw the line. Hate the game, not the player.

[@fakename7847]

Thanks for the review of their series.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Forget historical or fantasy settings for a moment. Total War has got issues, the lack of being able to build armies without a general always felt like a limitation to me, yes they claim they did it to make battles less often but when they did they where grand scale battles. But in reality the enemy just made a new army with general every other turn anyway so you never really got one decisive battle to stop the enemy since next turn they will spawn new ones. But the real flaw in current TW is the engine itself, yes it does look pretty and nice, but it struggles to handle Melee combat since it never was built for it, remember it was created for Empire's Gun warfare first. I think if CA got a new engine more in tune with the physics and needs of melee combat and brought back some of the beloved ideas of older games Total War would be back on a golden road. At the moment look when infantry fight, no real formations, no weight just a mess and units seem to skid as well. Warhammer would look a lot better if Units had real collision and weight in their movements.

[@AndysTake]

True!

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@AndysTake Just Imagine a new Engine, releasing with Total War: Middle Earth.

[@Mad_Sailor01]

Really, what historical army marched forth without a leader? Sure reinforcements were oft😅en needed but enemy they had a leader, maybe not a general but usually a Major or Lt. Colonel. It is true I exploited this feature when it was available in the earlier games but there are ways to work around this as well.

[@Mad_Sailor01]

Sorry, typo from my tablet. Me and even😅

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@Mad_Sailor01 Technically in the older TW games your none general armies were lead by a captain who would act as a general in battle, but could not rally troops.

[@Sisyphe987]

What i liked the most in Total war were all things related to battles so what i regret is the battle approximations we have in historical titles since warhammer came out, in Pharaoh you can't zoom on a fight or a charge without seeing a bug units merging in each another, cavalry stopping imediatly not breaking ennemy lines and chariot tweaking, weird missile mechanics, fights doesn't seems realistic and accurate anymore, not satisfying at all. Back in the days we called for Lord of the Ring and i feel we wouldn't got this far of historical battle mechanics with it as most people in lotr die by the same things human does. I did tried really hard to play Three Kingdom, Warhammer 1 2 3 did hundreds of hours without liking the battles at all in it but it's still not as satisfying to me in battles as total wars were before atila, what i fear now is a new audience that might not care about it and will keep pushing those mechanics in the next historical title killing for me the game franchise i liked the most. I'm happy for warhammer fans they have their own game but for me they should have create a all different studio and franchise and we shouldn't have any warhammer mechanics in historical since the very beginning. Keep upgrading the multiplayer from shogun 2 with the versus avatars, rank, getting an online campaign and such, keep upgrading what makes historical realistic, gave a soul to units, population, leaders etc what gave us an immersion feeling. I don't care about the time period or setting if the total war have good unit scaling and progression to allow me to conquer and have epic battles, seeing my boys facing adversity as mere mortal and winning costly. Reality is nowadays if i want to feel joy in a total war battle i need to play a game 10 years old and it do suck, i hope CA will do better in the next historical or i'm done with it.

[@lordgong4980]

These guys(not LTW) are really just grifters at this point. I find myself agreeing with them sometimes because I'm a historical fan. BUT Volund made a statement in a video in which he stated creators that make Total War content were shills and anyone that was part of the Creator Program was the reason Total War was failing. I realized after that he wasn't to be taken seriously. All he does is make videos attacking or criticizing something

[@sirharken821]

An hour of aggressively misunderstanding, maliciously reframing, and condescendingly dismissing and strawmaning without ever once engaging with any of the critiques of new total war that have been made.

[@AndysTake]

@@sirharken821 you must’ve watched with both ears closed because I repeatedly engage with the critiques of «modern» total war several times over in the course of this hour. God, you’re insufferable.

[@MrSpartanspud]

Is that a joke? Volund does nothing but engage in bad faith. Not only is he not even deserving of a good faith response, he is undeserving of any response at all.

[@kingster14444]

The reason those comparisons were made was in the context of the debate. They were arguing really about if Legend could see Warhammer as an objectively bad game regardless if he liked it. The smoking correlation wasn't about how bad it was for you to do it, but rather someone that likes smoking could also know that the smoking is bad. Sure it can be a bad correlation, but trying to make it seem like theyre trying to paint the game as something as bad for you as smoking is just disingenuous. They're not hating on Legend, they're pushing back to how Legend won't cede ground that Warhammer is a bad game, that's where most of the part 3 conversation is. So most of their arguments are about how they're confused how Legend hasn't really given anything positive as to why he doesn't think it's a bad game. Your argument for pushing the envelope is so weird to me as well, "there's dragons and there's so much different people", that might be pushing the envelope with animation, or to graphics, but that isn't pushing the envelope of what the game can do. I'm pretty sure you just have a big bias towards Volund as you basically don't give him any credence. Saying hating is the safest thing is only half true. I mean Volund, and potentially Pixilated Apollo, have people try to smear their reputation especially on Reddit because of it, and with CAs KZbin program and the benefits that gives, loving the game regardless is actually the safest move, you quite literally can make a career off of it with a huge company behind your back. Also, calling Pharaoh Dynasties innovative isn't that compelling when at least half of the things you brought up was features they brought back from older games. Also also, stating Apollo and Volund hate on Pharaoh so much is also kind of off, I haven't really seen them talk about it as much, especially when majority of the several hour conversation was Warhammer.

[@yorkshire_tea_innit8097]

If all you have is that it's generally illegitimate to criticise someone's hobby, then are you just admitting they are right?

[@AndysTake]

Right that what? Of course I mostly agree with them on the quality of the games or the general direction of the series. That’s not the «gotcha» you seem to think it is, in fact it’s something I’ve stated in this video multiple times. There’s nothing to «admit» since I’ve been making the exact same points for years. Just don’t target or persecute other people who disagree. It’s very simple.

[@CALLE92JOHANSSON]

Listened to most of their stuff, quit halfway through part 3 because that was enough of that. Agree with basically everything you say. I comment to point out that you mention a CA controversy that happened last year. I have heard people reference this before and I specifically remember commenting on your video in the past saying that you should mention what this controversy is for context because not everyone knows what you're regering to. You answered me then with a non answer basically saying everyone knows you dont have to explain. So here I am again, commenting the same thing. Still not knowing wtf this controversy is. I dont care enough to look it up, but I care enough to have context provided in the right setting which would be these videos where you reference them.. Cheers. I am with you on the carefully positive side, total war could still get back to their glory days.

[@AndysTake]

Hi! Hm, please let me know what I said back then, I don’t remember that, but I apologize if I came across as rude. The controversy was basically that CA was overcharging and under delivering on the WH3 DLC Shadows of Change, alongside bad communication from CA, that many bugs still remained in WH3, the news that CA had spent dozens of millions of dollars on a game they cancelled before release (Hyenas), and that Pharaoh released as a game very few liked or wanted to begin with. Hope that clears up a thing or two!

[@CALLE92JOHANSSON]

@@AndysTake ---------- quote-------- @CALLE92JOHANSSON för 1 år sedan I have no idea what you are referencing in this post. Did CA go under? Are you talking about their latest games that kinda suck? @AndysTake för 1 år sedan There’s been about 2-8 weeks of constant drama, my dude @CALLE92JOHANSSON för 1 år sedan (redigerad) @AndysTake Sorry not been paying attention at all to the drama. I just hears Pharao sucks to nobody's surprise at all. ---------- end quote-------- No worries, was just a non-answer back then. Thanks for finally giving the answer lol. So basically that was a repeat of CA business as usual ever since Rome 2. I have seriously not been playing any of their games since 2013 except hundreds of hours of Rome 2 DEI. Attila should a game for me but there's something about the UI and general feel of that that I don't jive with. My last hope is the next real, serious historical title, whatever it is. Svara

[@vegapunk100]

Andy Volund Apollo and Legend. Legend can arbiter the discussion make it happen

[@DJ-1Q84]

Calling a podcast "blunt rotation" is hilarious. Something tells me if someone offered you a joint you'd run away and call the cops.

[@kanakakku]

You calling Andy a pussy?

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

This is the first time I don't agree with you Andy. I tried new TW's and I couldn't play them longer than few hours. Troy, Warhammers, 3 Kingdoms. All uninstalled after few hours because they're so boring, unrealistic and just copying choices which started with Rome 2 (the same broken battle engine). This is my take 🙂

[@AndysTake]

That’s fine, I’m not asking you to like them, in fact I don’t like those games a whole lot either. But I hope you agree with the premise of the video, which is not about the quality of the games, but about how we treat other people with different opinions from us.

[@Wojciech-mh3nb]

@@AndysTake True. No matter of opinion we should treat others with respect but sometimes harsh words can make the counteropinion stronger. We cannot behave like snowlakes and be offended by everything.

[@caminantesdeplanos]

Never understood why people hate Legend, Its just a guy with an opinion, the response he gets it's never proportional to what he says or does.

[@matthewwebster3143]

I'll say this Andy you handled this well

[@hermannsalza1191]

Still waiting for the Bug faction in Pharao

[@SlenderHime]

How can we avoid feeling frustrated with the increasing emphasis on fantasy elements when they undermine the core values of historical Total War? This shift not only diverts financial resources and labor hours but also risks diminishing the contributions of talented individuals who are passionate about historical authenticity. As a result, we are witnessing a gradual transformation where the essence of historical Total War seems to be overshadowed by fantasy themes, ultimately steering the franchise away from its roots. This evolution raises concerns about the future direction of the series and its commitment to genuine historical representation.

[@YeetThyBaby]

Its just a video game, and the historical ones are always going to be there to play so I don't really see where the frustration comes from. Fantasy elements in the newer games aren't affecting your experience in the older games?

[@BittermanAndy]

Recent historical Total Wars have been very poor (if not entirely non-existent), it's true. That's not a criticism of the Warhammer games, it's a criticism of CA. We ALL want CA to make good historical games... but that's not a reason for PA and Volound to attack Warhammer TW fans. Personally I didn't touch Troy or Pharaoh because they look terrible, and I played 3K for about 3 minutes before giving up on it. None of them are what (we probably both agree) a historical TW game should be. The solution? Make the next historical game better... Warhammer can still do its thing.

[@YeetThyBaby]

@@BittermanAndy I mean if people are going into games that are based on fictional stories/ mythology expecting a realistic historical experience it's pretty clear where they're going wrong to me. The last actual attempt at a historical total war game was Attila, Troy and Pharoah are a bit out there for my taste but Three Kingdoms goes so hard in every way, especially if you play on records mode.

[@glendaal67]

Total War games have never been authentic.

[@strategosaurus]

Ich mag Total War Troy wirklich sehr. Neben Three Kingdoms and Attila ist es einer meiner Lieblingsteile der Serie. Hate bringt uns hier nicht weiter. Ordentliche Kritik und Enttäuschung muss man akzeptieren. Es gibt genug gute Teile zu spielen. Und was gut ist interpretiert jeder für sich selbst.

[@AndysTake]

Sehr gut!

[@MichaelThomas-p6q]

I would rank the games 1. rome 1. 2. medieval 2 3. dynasties. 4. immortal empires (not wh3, but the entire trilogy) 5. rome 2 and attila’s good campaign packs (rome 1 and medieval 2 also have campaign packs, but rome 2 and attila have a huge gap between the base and the dlc) the bottom 3 would be 1. base wh3 2. base pharaoh 3. base rome 2

[@cynfaelalek-walker7003]

47:40 The Sale of 3K & Warhammer had nothing to do with the games themselves as much as the IPs.

[@andrewm78]

Andy, I've been a fan of Total War since Medieval 1 and can definitely agree the series has had its ups and downs. I could only get through part of their bozo video because it was so insanely irrational to see those two clowns continually try to say their opinion on a form of entertainment is objective when it is SOOOO clearly subjective. They also continually tried to smugly act like they were more intelligent and wise than enjoyers of Warhammer and like they were the brave counterculture standing up to the "mob." Yet they are too wuss to even say the word PORN in their video because, deep down, they are absolutely bowing to a mob; theirs just happens to be haters. It seems like a miserable existence to me but to each their own. Thank you for your video. I almost always agree with and enjoy your content, especially in this case.

[@lucasco031194]

Sadly the youtube content mill tends to go into mostly hating things. Its pretty toxic with almost all games.

[@malice9830]

There's a lot of medieval 3 soaks

[@Wolfhamm3r312]

Agree on many points but I have to disagree on your warhammer point. It's in my opinion the best total war since medieval. But it's completely okay to not like it and be a more grounded historical total war fan

[@zrize101]

I'm hearing just as many valid points as I am hearing biased perceptions and misdirections/misunderstandings of the arguments made by PA and Volound. Saying PA and Volound can't criticize Pharaoh without having played it is like saying you can't hate on drugs without having taken drugs. Making that general point is a fallacy. It's not about gatekeeping something by saying you have to play it to make any comments about it, it should be about countering the specific points made. If at all possible.

[@AndysTake]

@@zrize101 your comparison is horrendous, medically proven horrible repercussions of drug use that can lead to harmful habits, diseases or death is nothing like the subjective emotion of enjoying a video game. *Your* entire point is a fallacy.

[@zrize101]

​@@AndysTake How exactly is my point a fallacy? My point had nothing to do with the repercussions. They are themselves irrelevant. You are just using the strawman fallacy.

[@JT_Infantry]

I like you Andy. But I completely agree with Apollo and Volound on this. Warhammer and Rome 2 has probably ruined future historical titles. Total war most likely dead and not coming back on the historical side.

[@AndysTake]

I'm not disagreeing that Rome 2 probably ruined future historical titles, in fact I say this in this very video, so I think you agree with me, actually.

[@sercravenmohead3631]

Warhammer was clearly made for warhammer fans, we didn’t ask CA to bleed mechanics into historical games. Literally no one asked for that shit and we don’t like Troy/Pharoah/3 Kingdoms. Apollo called warhammer fans lowest denominator consumers, he’s clearly upset about getting replaced.

[@AndysTake]

@@sercravenmohead3631 getting replaced? Hmm what kind of forums do you frequent

[@sercravenmohead3631]

@ I’m not saying literally like that’s happening nor do I wish that to be the case but it comes off as an accusation coming from PA or Vollound that we as fans of warhammer hijacked the total war franchise. I’m just being defensive on that point, I’m not in any forums and to know where I’m coming from I am a fan of warhammer TW but also historical (the good ones), I just don’t think it’s not fair for these guys to say that about warhammer fans or even fans of the newer games. While technically this may be true in CA’s trends like they’re catering more specifically to us making historical more like warhammer but in general we didn’t ask for that, I don’t even play the other new titles because my interest is in warhammer and the stuff they did before.

[@harrisoncurtis204]

Bringing Warhammer fantasy mechanics into Troy kind of made sense, as Troy is borderline historical fantasy/fiction with characters like Achilles, I actually enjoyed the iterations that gave you an option to lean into the fantasy side of the Iliad, or to lean toward realism. Bringing these features into any other historical setting though is just cringe

[@aidanmcnary-hickey6778]

Yeah gotta disagree with you chief, Total War has indeed shit the bed, everything is a clone of Warhammer, same tired boring mechanics, yeah campaign mechanics have gotten deeper for sure and that’s good, but the battles are so cheap shallow and lazy now. It’s not the same and won’t ever be with their current lazy money printing model

[@AndysTake]

@@aidanmcnary-hickey6778 where did I say the battles weren’t shallow now? In fact I think you agree with me! That’s not what this video was about

[@irishleonidas2274]

Good stuff. I thought it was a cool idea until most of the videos became kinda hateful. Also, pass this conversation to the left hand side.

[@locarnus255]

The first part about that trilogy discussion from Legend, Apollo and Volound is true. That discussion started out interesting and later devolved into one guy already being in a corner while still being relentless pushed for no good reason. Practically 2 guys gatekeeping what 1 guy should be allowed to find fun. Funny that your video follows a similar trajectory. It went downhill when you tried to gatekeep what others talk about or criticize (leading up to and after 19:30). Companies put trailers out so viewers can pre-judge a game, that is the entire point! People don't have to taste something to be allowed to criticize the look, feel and smell.

[@dannyalex5866]

Peace for the series

[@adrianthompson5250]

I am a big fan of Pharaoh Dynasties and I always suspected that many of the people who criticized it so badly had never bothered to play it.

[@AndysTake]

You were right. Honestly, I couldn’t in my wildest dreams imagine that someone who spend so much time hating, never even played it to begin with, never even *tried* it.

[@JediLordNathan]

@@AndysTake I have it on my wishlist I am waiting for a sale though, I think it is a game that could have been WAY more.

[@danielbuckingham108]

Really bizarre video. Andy comes off whiny and childish.

[@AndysTake]

In what way?

[@thorkildsparre]

real bro

[@Greatiger030]

Never liked Volound. He’s an egomaniac, what he likes and what he does is what everyone else should like (or dislike). I try to watch his videos and can’t just stand it. The only thing that I like from his channel is the “disaster battles” he does in shogun 2, he knows what he does there but that’s it.

[@mcsmash4905]

volound is very often right but his behavior means that nobody will listen to him either and he fails to grasp the fact that for some people the issues that he lists are not dealbreakers

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Volound does have many good points in his videos and he points out the major flaws in the warscape engine quite well. Problem is though the way he comes across and interacts with the community is cow muck.

[@MasonDixonAutistic]

Call me when CA manage to make a game that is not spreadsheeted Numberwang and yet another reskin of a post-2012 game. They've feature stripped these games to death, introduced old features as if they were new except with the mechanics gone and replaced with a stat-modifier. CA have been taken over by their marketing department, and know they have made more money making trash than they ever made with their actual good games.

[@thadmeboy1129]

I think the biggest disconnect is that 98% of people will not notice a large difference between the battles in medieval 2 and total war warhammer 3. So most of the debate isnt over the mechanics like they talk about but rather the setting itself

[@slothkong5792]

You could say that but it wou0pldnt explain why most of the recent historical games built off the warscape engine have failed critically, just check player numbers and you will see the historical playerbase not engaging with the new games as much. At the end of the day play what u want but its fair game to complain if the games made for your market are constantly missing the mark. Complaining and refusing to buy are the only tools that playerbase have to shift CA's direction back to producing games that actually make the historical market happy and not what CA thinks will make the historical market happy.

[@thadmeboy1129]

@slothkong5792 I think a big reason for games like Pharoah failing is more so a lack of content and polish at launch not just because the battles are different from previous games. Also a big thing is that most of the people wo would have played pharaoh see content creators say the game is bad and see it being a commercial failure and don't even bother. I'm not saying there is no difference but I am saying that for most people the difference is minimal.