The Status of the Lord’s Supper in the LCMS Rev. John Hill President of the Wyoming District LCMS

[@logicaredux5205]

This man is as clear as a bell and Confessional. He should be our next Synodical President!

[@anthonyhilton4168]

I second the motion!

[@erichjohnson4256]

Aye!

[@Nonz.M]

Excellent presentation, Bishop Hill. All laymen and clergy should see this.

[@jefficiency]

Rev Hill’s words, tenor, encouragement, clarity, and strength are how I envision St. Paul addressed his beloved congregations, thank you! SDG

[@JJ-dc7tt]

Unity in doctrine is necessary, but unity in worship is just as important. It is how the "unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace" is known. Few people read confessions, but every Christian worships, and is united to one another by worship which is of necessity Eucharistic.

[@OremusAugustana]

This man is a treasure to the Synod.

[@sugarmcdoodle3514]

So as a layman, what are we to do when closed communion isn't practiced and the pastor's wife leads the contemporary service? The claim is that the pastor is doing the preaching and sacraments so there's nothing wrong. I become the bad guy for bringing this up. What then?

[@RevancedBurner]

After talking with your pastor, reach out to your DP. Let your pastor know you will bring it to the DP. If that doesn't work, try another parish

[@Edward-tp5nc]

Leave that church.

[@anthonyhilton4168]

The pithy thing to do here is to post a pic of a U-haul truck. But if that isn’t possible, pray and do what the first commenter said.

[@CornCod1]

Ppastor's wives are leading services in the LCMS? Yikes!

[@sugarmcdoodle3514]

@@CornCod1 contemporary worship, the Wild West of the Christian world. I think the Internet is helping to take down the church because they see what the megachurches are doing and try to compete.

[@stephengriffin4612]

Thank you Rev. Hill for your clear exposition of the LCMS view. I believe, and I could certainly be wrong, but the Catholic Church recognizes that there are some Lutheran bishops who have valid sacraments, the True Presence in this example, because they can trace their ordination back through a long line of validly ordained clerics back to the Apostolic age. The validity of the LCMS ordination presents more problems because there doesn't seem to be an unbroken Apostolic succession for the LCMS. Rev. Walther does not seem to been ordained validly. Perhaps you could clear this up for the benefit of all? Thanks.

[@josephmangas5196]

This is a great video. My only question is, why do the words of institution NEED to he done melodically? Is there any scriptural requirement that it has to be done by chanting? If not, then it's just a personal or group preference.

[@Nonz.M]

Chanting the Words of Institution is not a matter of personal preference. When something is chanted, it is distinguished from other things that are spoken plainly. Chanting marks something as sacred - set apart. And as the Eucharist is the most blesséd, most holy element of the Divine Service, it should be treated with an even greater reverence than the rest of the liturgy and chanting the Words of Institution communicates exactly that. Lutherans are actually the ones who first started the chanting of the Words of Institution. In the Roman church at the time, the celebrant would speak it in a very quiet voice. It's ironic and unfortunate that some Lutherans today think chanting is "too Catholic", not knowing that it's a distinctively Lutheran practice. Such Lutherans are too concerned with not being/looking like Rome, as opposed to embracing our Church's Confessions and historic practice, which is, properly speaking, truly Catholic.

[@josephmangas5196]

@Nonz.M Like I said, it's a group's preference. A group of Lutherans decided to chant it and declared that chanting is more sacred than speaking. In comparison, there are Lutherans that hate the alb, and prefer pastors wear the cassock and chasuble because of this or that reason. The reason may be valid, but it's still based on non-scriptural preference. Baptism is also important, but no chanting happens there. Are the means of grace withheld because of the mode of delivery? NO! As Lutheran doctrine clearly states, God is doing the action, not humans. Maybe the 95 theses would have made an even bigger impact if accompanied by a musical chart? I'm not against tradition, but if it is used to splinter the Lutheran church into oblivion, it's simply foolish.

[@salishheights2320]

The Lutheran Reformers began to chant them so they could be distinctly heard by the congregation, in stark contrast to the whispered "hocus pocus" (hoc est corpus) of the Roman practice at the time. Chanting helps the acoustics, esp in a Medieval church built for that. It also definitely calls your attention to Christ's Words of Institution that consecrate the bread and wine as His true Body and Blood. It can also musically highlight particular words and phrases. I suppose you could call it a preference, but these are all quite practical and carefully considered reasons for that tradition. Certainly there isn't magic in the chanting. But as Lutherans confess, ceremonies teach, so we must teach carefully by what ceremonies we practice, as well as what we hastily dismiss.

[@Nonz.M]

@@josephmangas5196 that attitude is exactly why we don't have unity of practice in our church. You say to yourself "does the Bible specifically require it?", and if not, you decide it's unimportant and is a matter of personal preference. It's not about preference, it's about reverence. Hebrews 12:28 "therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe".

[@BertiferousRex]

They don't need to be.

[@JessicaChristensen-gu6hz]

Where can i get a copy of his paper??? It was a very well done presentation.

[@lawrencethompson465]

Look in the notes section. There is a link to his paper.

[@joeberan560]

Can someone give me some further reading on Romans 16 connection to communion? I understand non-believers/unbaptized not communing, but I'm super confused about the idea that any heterodox belief should bar you...

[@AmericanwrCymraeg]

If you're dealing with Christ's true Body and Blood, more precious than the temple or than the universe itself, why would you urge such caution and timidity in making changes where people discard Christ into the trash? Lex orandi lex est credendi.

[@dennisparham5860]

Good points.

[@cleob9956]

So sad that Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox do not discern and accept the rest of us who are part of the Body of Christ. Edit: I’m sure many denominationalists do the same. I pray for our love for one another and our unity in the Truth to be actualized. Praying all stumbling blocks in self and others (including church practices) will be removed. Help us, our only Savior and Hope Jesus!

[@traceyedson9652]

It’s only extremely recently that conservative evangelicals also “accept” others as “part of the Body of Christ.” I think you’ll find that many of the above groups (I’m EO) try to carefully state What & Who they believe they are and not What & Who others are. Orthodox are comfortable with two phrases: “We know where the Holy Spirit is, we don’t know where He is not”; and “The walls we build in earth do not extend to the heavens.” I can’t speak for Lutheran sentiments.

[@cleob9956]

@@traceyedson9652 please see my edit

[@padredave53]

Bishop Hill did a great exposition and commentary of the Eucharist is celebrated. However, he lost me on who can read and distribute the Eucharist.

[@suzziezhills]

I’m considering going to an nalc church cuz the local lcms we’ve belonged to is so diluted I see no difference. Just sad.

[@davidw.5185]

In my observations, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox laity have a higher commitment to and or great hunger for the Sacrament. I also agree that the threat to holding our doctrine has never been Rome or Constantinople. This fear has proved irrational. What has constantly pressed against the LCMS is various Arminian and Reformed theology. Just my two cents. (edited for typos)

[@palermotrapani9067]

Catholic Here, Surveys show that among Mass Attending Catholics show that 69% of Catholics believe in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, that is the bread and wine consecrated at the Mass become the Body and Blood of Christ. Among Catholics who attend Mass a 1 or 2 times a year, it is still 63% [Catholic Canon Law says one must attend Mass at least once a year and have a Confession to a Catholic in good standing]. Among Catholics that attend Mass every Sunday, it is 81% and for Catholics who attend Sunday and also weekly Liturgies, 91%. Now not the 100% and their are Eucharistic Revivals going on right now in the Catholic Church here in the USA, but despite all the modern secular rationalism, Catholics in the USA still hold to a strong Eucharistic Theology. As Catholic, while I think the Lutheran Eucharistic Theology is not quite the Doctrine of the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East, it is along with the Traditional Anglicans closer to what Catholics and the other ancient Apostolic Churches hold regarding the Eucharist than the Reformed Protestants that follow Arminian, Calvinist or Zwingli's theology. God Bless.

[@Michael-ii9fs]

I disagree regarding commitment to the sacrament...certainly not across the board. That is so not true in portions of the synod. There are a lot of "LCMS" (quotes) congregations that are lax, indeed. But there is a very solid confessional bunch who care deeply. One of the issues is around our ecumenical structure...it allows for a certain leeway per church. It is a concern because it is a way that liberalism gets a hold...which led to the walkout and Seminex. And that was awful from the standpoint that there was no valid point. It was outright heresy...indeed a push for what has become an apostate former church called ELCA. That church has had it's lampstand extinguished...God has left it. Those who followed that path unrepentantly are apart from Christ...doomed without repentance of course. One could call the walkout participants The Church of Laodicea. This is trying to creep in again, and we have to squash it. A faithful remnant of any size, no matter how small, is better than parting from Christ...and that's what Seminex was regarding how off the wall some of the heresies went...nearly Sadducee level nonsense like no afterlife arguments...yeah that bad. We cannot let that contingent get a foothold with any leverage.

[@ministeriosemmanuel638]

Check out a book called “Disillusioned” by a former Eastern Orthodox priest who lately became Luthern names Fr. Joshua Schooping, he also has a youtube channel so check that out as well!

[@erikmiller2514]

The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Roman and Orthodox) is not an abomination- it’s the ancient teaching of the Fathers.

[@salishheights2320]

​@@mpkropf5062May I ask what you mean when you say they don't use the host?

[@salishheights2320]

@ericmiller2514 Absolutely, which is what the Lutheran Augsburg Confession confesses. 😊 ✔️

[@salishheights2320]

​@mpkropf5062 Thanks for the reply. I don't know what happened to the earlier comment about Lutheran churches not having the host, but instead regular bread. We believe and confess that the bread we eat and the wine we drink in the Sacrament of Communion are the true crucified and risen Body and Blood of our Lord, and that we worship Him by believing what He says about it, and by doing what He says with it ~ eating and drinking it for the forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation.

[@Nonz.M]

Lutherans hold to the ancient teaching of the fathers of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Even moreso than Rome or the East because we commune in both kinds.

[@calebadcock363]

@@Nonz.MSince when does the east not commune with both kinds?

[@JohnMaxfield-b4n]

The presentation is mostly fine but many of the comments (and perhaps some of the presentation), e.g., a misuse and misunderstanding of the (non-Lutheran) maxim Lex orandi lex credendi, is disturbing. As for changes and other matters of practice, most of us would benefit of a careful reading (study) of Luther's 1522 "Invocavit Sermons" (Eight Wittenberg Sermons) where the Reformer insisted on the principle of love in making changes (or even reasserting older practices) in all matters of liturgy and administration of the sacraments. Many are making "musts" (law) of what God has left free (gospel).

[@figurefour633]

Catholic believes the Eucharist, is the Body, Blood,Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ truly and substantially Present!!!! Let’s get it correct!

[@wjm5972]

that is correct

[@JJ-dc7tt]

You say, "purity of doctrine." But what about: purity of practice.

[@nilsalmgren4492]

ELCA still have communion...I guess in and of itself communiin does not do much. We really need to look at how the two groups differ to see what is really important.

[@NoahHolsclaw]

“Communion doesn’t do much” how can you substantiate that as a Lutheran?

[@nilsalmgren4492]

@@NoahHolsclaw Look.at the ELCA, they take communion and they do not know God. They teach the homosexual agenda as good and loving.

[@francanarsie]

What? Communion doesn't do much?

[@nilsalmgren4492]

@@francanarsie ELCA takes communion. They are followers of Satan.

[@jocep48]

the ELCA is in communion with church bodies which deny the Real Presence; thus they have abandoned the true confession rendering their "communion" totally invalid and worthless.

[@stevensonrf]

Questions about holy communion? Why not put your heresy and apostasy behind you and come home to the Orthodox Church?

[@traceyedson9652]

I’m EO, and I doubt such a comment would positively any needle. We might first need to understand “heresy,” “apostasy” and “home.”

[@stevensonrf]

@@traceyedson9652 your equivocation does not give you an air of sophistication or intelligence.

[@traceyedson9652]

@@stevensonrf ok, whatever

[@JJ-dc7tt]

Gluten free wafers are NOT bread, and as such unable to be consecrated, just like grape juice or "non-alcoholic" wine which cannot be consecrated. On three separate occasions the FC says "natural bread and natural wine". Moreover if you are to have communion rather than un-com-union all must eat of the same loaf, and drink from the same cup. No one gets to chose which loaf she will participate in.

[@Nonz.M]

​@@mpkropf5062We use hosts - unleavened bread.

[@figurefour633]

@@Nonz.MYou will need apostolic succession. I.e a valid priesthood!

[@salishheights2320]

Interesting discussion of this at the Gottesdienst blog. Google "Apostolic Succession in the Roman Catholic and Lutheran Churches." I'd like to take a closer look myself at what Trent said on it. Doesn’t sound like that was really a concern. That said, confessional Lutherans are not just ordaining people willy-nilly. @@figurefour633

[@joeltelschow5910]

That may be the dumbest comment made

[@figurefour633]

@@joeltelschow5910Only if you have a low IQ

[@Edward-tp5nc]

Harrison is good? Ha! I agree with him on everything but not on this heretic leader of our Synod. He’s got to go! Harrison is destroying our Church.

[@anthonyhilton4168]

My gut tells me to say that he is more generous than I am towards our current President and leave it that. But the thing about noticing a good leader is that we should follow his lead, right? God has gotten us through worse than Harrison, he and his ways will pass on as well.

[@Michael-ii9fs]

Well, Harrison vs pre-Harrison...was a MASSIVE improvement. It went a much better direction. And he has taken it on the chin a LOT. Having said that, this latest Large Catechism mess AND the dealbreaking act of defending and justifying it cannot be permitted. It's to the point they have rebuked and even attacked people. No go. This is going to be addressed. There is a forfeiture of authority at Synod to whatever extent needed to correct the sinful behavior amongst our leadership through repentance and public apology, or permanent expulsion. It may not be via normal official channels but it will be by Confessional and scriptural standards. They have some church discipline coming. They better know that.

[@gizmorazaar]

@@anthonyhilton4168 I was actually just confirmed in the LCMS this morning, what's the deal with President Harrison? Or is this church politics I shouldn't be worried about as a new member?

[@Nonz.M]

​@@gizmorazaarNo president is going to be liked by the entirety of the church. Bishop Harrison has been a solid president of the LCMS. He strongly upholds the Confessions and promotes the use of the liturgy. A recent controversy he faced (about a year ago) is that there were some that are dissatisfied that he allowed certain opinion essays to be included in the latest publication of the Large Catechism. (Most of these people haven't even read the essays in their entirety and have just read quotes out of context). But regardless of what you make of them, they're mere opinion essays that do not require your agreement and are not binding on anyone. No part of our doctrine has changed.

[@Edward-tp5nc]

@@gizmorazaar well he’s gotten totally into the social justice scene and politics and he hates Alt right LCMS Lutherans whereas he should be promoting the gospel and we’ve lost more members under him than any other time. He needs to promote be fruitful and multiply. We need to get back to old Lutheranism and if we do not-the church will be gone in 10 years and become another ELCA if this trend continues and I promise you that.

[@BertiferousRex]

There's still a few of the usual unexplained leaps that never get answered, such as his assertion that it's "clear" in the Bible that women cannot assist in distribution, but men can. Ehrm that's nowhere in the Bible. I can understand if your position is that if no one but a pastor can do so (though I don't agree), but if you're going to open it up to laity you're going to open it up to laity. And why is reserving the host for shut-ins an "abuse"? Also his remark about intinction - yet again another presumed "abuse" that on which the Bible is totally silent. If the idea is that because Jesus administered them separately so do we... Jesus also had a meal in between ("Again, after supper...") I don't see anyone making that a requirement.