The Tower of Babel: John Larsen/Carah Burrell @JohnLarsen1 @nuancehoe | Ep. 1603

[@function0077]

John Larsen getting worked up and swearing is one of the reasons I like him. I am an exmormon that works in the construction industry and I swear like a sailor.

[@Philippians--co6ww]

Really something to boast about.

[@function0077]

@@Philippians--co6ww Swearing is often a lot of fun. Are you a Puritan? That is, does the following apply to you? "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” - H.L. Mencken

[@robertderkach650]

Love his talks as really deep down to the point 😂

[@bigskypioneer1898]

2:04:00 Speaking of Kolob - My favorite sci-fi (no joke) is the original Battlestar Galactica written by Glen A. Larson. It's probably because I grew up when Star Trek wasn't on TV, and we didn't have VHS so we could watch Star Wars at home... BUT every week I could watch Battlestar Galactica. I always thought the story of a lost tribe of humans with obvious cultural ties to ancient Rome, Greece & Egypt was neat-o-mosquit-o! Roughly 20 years later... I learned that it was actually a re-telling of the BOM. I still love the _idea_ of Battlestar Galactica _as Science Fiction._ I will never get over the fact that Joseph Smith beat L. Ron Hubbard to founding a religion based on science fiction by over 100 years! In that regard, he _was_ a prophet!

[@kevintroy4329]

It was Science fiction is was built on, it was built on the Racist historical revisionist anti indigenous erasure, genocide, and the appropriation of achievements of the Indigenous ethnic American races, and the dis inheritance of the civilizations of their ancient ancestors.

[@TheatheistRN]

“Only four types of people who read the Bible…” I can’t stop laughing. This is spot on. I love you, John Larsen. I live for this.

[@jamiepotts6102]

I love these episodes so much. The Plan of Salvation one last time was legendary

[@mattjohansson8931]

John Larsen: "I wasn't some random asshole, I was part of the ward" hahahaha I learn so much, and have such a good chuckle on these John Larsen episodes . Good stuff guys

[@KatoueDD]

These are always my favourite to watch, and even more so today as I also studied in linguistics. Fascinating talk! Quick note: Hindu is a religion, Hindi is a language.

[@noahheninger]

A fifth category of people would be those who don't assume the Bible is perfect and also don't take it literally.

[@darin982]

This stream is a little more fired up than most you do. I LOVE IT! I get excited about TRUTH. Great work

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. Thank you.

[@brucee8332]

The big problem lies in people who worship the Bible rather than God-Who-Is-LOVE.

[@kentthalman4459]

So appreciate John sharing his knowledge.

[@gibblesglobe991]

The thing that gets me about the Tower of Babel in my post-Mormon life is this; people speak hundreds of languages now and we still manage to trade, communicate and organise. It just takes a little time. Even with languages that are totally unconnected like say when the Spanish conquered the Americas, people still figured out how to communicate.

[@allibrinkerhoff2212]

John Larsen is the Hagrid of Exmormonism

[@chrismiddleton4733]

Agreed! Plan of salvation may be the greatest episode ever 😂 "Lack of nuance ho" 😂

[@tonihoban8350]

I have been watching Mormon stories for over a year now and love it! But, recently I’ve been binging all the Jack Larson and Carrah series! Totally addicted! Thank you so much a couple of years late! ❤

[@lilith4924]

I always love listening to John Larsen and really enjoyed Mormon Expression back in the day. The Tower of Babylon by itself is an absolute smoking gun that the Book of Mormon is fiction. That said, there are several misconceptions here. The Hebrew name Babel is applied to the city the Greeks called Babylon and the Babylonians called Baab-ilim. There are times when it sounds like the panelists--like the people who made the scriptural maps for the Mormon church--think of these as two separate cities. To reduce confusion, I advocate just calling it the Tower of Babylon. The etymology offered in the Bible, that this relates to the Hebrew root בלל, is spurious and obviously a folk etymology, like basically all biblical etymologies. (It's possible the etymology the Babylonians themselves offered is a folk etymology as well, that the city name means "gate of god.") There was undeniably a tower in Babylon in antiquity--the ziggurat called Etemenanki. There are drawings of it in cuneiform sources, there are innumerable references to it in cuneiform sources, there are references to it in classical sources like Herodotus, and there's archaeological evidence for where it stood, although Alexander the Great razed it with the intention of rebuilding it shortly before he died unexpectedly in Babylon at the age of 32. It was quite famous in its day. It's a pretty steep road to argue that the Babylonian Exile was mythical, since there are multiple contemporaneous Babylonian sources that corroborate it. The story of the Tower of Babylon is not mentioned in Gilgamesh. I am aware of no indigenous Babylonian sources that have such a story (about languages being confounded). One of the many, many problems with the story is that Babylon simply wasn't an important city before Hammurabi's dynasty in the early second millennium BCE. The story can't reasonably be set in the third millennium BCE, when Babylon was no more than a village. (Because the water table has risen in Babylon, this can't be confirmed archaeologically, but it's very clear from texts.) The story in Genesis 11 tacitly acknowledges that Babylonian civilization is far older than Israelite civilization, but it seems unaware that civilization in Babylonia (the region around Babylon, in southern Iraq or Mesopotamia), is also far older than the city of Babylon itself. There are widespread misconceptions about the nature of textual evidence that survives from Babylonia. We have a tiny trickle of documents from Israel, including the Bible itself (which has been copied over the ages) and the Lachish letters (which have not), but from Babylonia we have an absolute avalanche of documents. Because they wrote in clay and, although it fragments, clay survives extremely well, we literally have hundreds of thousands of extant sources from Babylonia. Many of these belong to ordinary genres, such as receipts and letters, that virtually never survive from other ancient civilizations like Greece and Rome (with notable exceptions like Vindolanda, where we have letters of ordinary Romans). The documents are distributed extremely unevenly in time and space, but these documents give us a decent overview of Babylonian civilization across time, and in some times and places a very detailed snapshot. If people's languages were confounded in historical time in Babylonia-- which is of course utterly ludicrous on its face--this would show up in the textual record from Babylonia. It simply didn't happen.

[@lilith4924]

The oldest extant language is probably Sumerian, which was being written in southern Babylonia in the fourth millennium BCE in a pictographic script that evolved into cuneiform. Cuneiform is a system of writing, usually using a reed stylus to impress clay (although they also inscribed more important documents in stone). There are several cuneiform scripts, and cuneiform scripts were used to write many unrelated languages, including Sumerian (isolate), Akkadian (Semitic; the language of the Babylonians), Eblaite (Semitic), Hittite (Indo-European), Old Persian (Indo-European), Hurrian (virtual isolate), Elamite (isolate), etc.

[@jenben5alive458]

🤣 “…does he have a penpal in Tel Aviv?!” 🤣

[@unicorntamer2207]

My Dad talks about churches as "book clubs with only one book and no one bothers to read the book." It would be better to find an actual book club with a variety of books and readers to fulfill our human need for community.

[@kaijessen3654]

Great show. I used to listen to NPR and the BBC when I was driving my hour long commute every day. I can’t listen to that crap anymore because much better information is coming from small broadcasters like this who are working their butts off to use intelligence, as opposed to dogma, to make sense of the world. That they do it with chuckles and smiles is a big plus.

[@chrismiddleton4733]

I find the Bible makes a lot more sense if I simply leave the book in another room and bury my head in a hat.

[@clcole5655]

Thanks!

[@tracygittins6343]

"Blue Jesus" was either an Elvis B-side or an instant jazz standard.

[@marionmorrison993]

John, I just finished the Martin / Willy Handcart pod was the most heart felt pod I have ever listened to. I felt your passion. I too am pissed off so much that I am still mad! F*#k the 15 in SLC. You are the best! Mormon Expression rocks!

[@phrog849]

23:49 Its not hard to say that Gen 10:5 is referring to the eventual division of the languages that Gen 11 goes deeper into explaining. Gen 10 is just listing a genealogy, Gen 11 continues the story of how they were divided. Not everything happens sequential to how it is written. After listing the names of Japeth's posterity, it says "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."

[@jeffrichey4747]

Wow!! Never morman here. To John Larson. As a former Christian who likes to study the Bible and its many discrepancies, i never noticed chapter 10 being at odds with the Babel narrative. Good find sir.

[@function0077]

Genesis 10:5 (NRS Bible) states, "...These are the descendants of Japheth in their lands, with their own language, by their families, in their nations." Genesis 10:20 (NRS Bible) states, "These are the descendants of Ham, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations." Genesis 10:31 (NRS Bible) states, "These are the descendants of Shem, by their families, their languages, their lands, and their nations." Genesis 11:1 (NRS Bible) states, "Now the whole earth had one language and the same words." I am not even a Bible novice, but if the verses in Genesis chapter 10 mean that the descendants of Noah's sons (i.e. Japheth, Ham, & Shem) all had their own languages, then I agree with John Larsen, this is inconsistent with the 1st verse of Genesis chapter 11.

[@caseyjude5472]

This was so fun. And important too. Thank you, I needed a bit of levity.

[@slickmullet3891]

1:02:02 John Larson I’m afraid you are conflating “faith” and “trust” when you say that you have “faith in science”. I would argue for the very reasons that you say you personally have “faith” in science that you actually “trust” the scientific method as being a more reliable epistemology than faith because of the mountains of evidence that science has produced to demonstrate its superiority over faith at apprehending truth. This might seem like I’m nitpicking your language, but the less we skeptics use terms like “faith” colloquially in place of other words like “trust” or “confidence”, the sooner society as a whole can get around to seeing having “faith” (or believing without evidence) as immoral, which is one thing I think we can probably agree would be good for society in the long run as we try to promote rationality and reduce irrationality. Just my two cents.

[@custerpatton4885]

I think something you guys are missing is that standard believers in Christianity use the old testament as a reference and a way of better understanding the culture that Christ came out of in the New Testament.

[@boydstallings6004]

Going over the temple recommend questions might be a great video

[@elMongo13]

The apologetic or explanation I was told as a kid was that God was upset that they were trying to reach heaven with the tower. So you could probably swing that into “ there are no short cuts to heaven “ or it’s not the right way…

[@jacobopstad5483]

Maybe Babe the blue ox was really a tapir

[@dianethulin1700]

The Olmec intrigue me so much. They seem so mysterious to me ever since I went to a museum exhibit on Central and South American culture and they had two of those giant sculptures of heads Language is so interesting to me. I am curious about the spoken languages of the North American Native Americans in comparison with the peoples of Siberia, and the Finns. I find those two cultures have some things in common and it has me wondering if there is a connection?? Also the Iroquois dialect from North and South within the Iroquois Confederacy

[@elizajanegoodrich8878]

Well some scientists believe that there used to be a connection between Russia and Alaska and that some native peoples came from that. Maybe that’s where the connection is from. I remember watching a National Geographic special on it.

[@dianethulin1700]

@@jcrook5904 Umm thanks for the suggestion but I am researching them and have been for the last few months. To my mind the Finns and the Native Americans have similar farming practices. In addition the Finnish language has more in common with Siberia and Hungary than the Scandanavians, who some people confuse the Finns with. None the less many Finns immigrated to the Americas in the 1600's and were known as Swedish immigrants (since the Swedes were not leaving Sweden during their golden age). They did fairly well in getting along with the Native people who were here already. It is also thought that the Native Americans came here from Siberia so there could be some connections Anyway thanks for the suggestion! Maybe it is YOU who should pick a tribe and start researching

[@1faedo]

Could you share part of your research in order to see what has been found?

[@davidyuwa1598]

Papua new Guinea has over 800 languages. Tower of bable was built here.

[@dygz]

Yay! Cara! (I skipped ahead a bit to make sure she was going to be here.)

[@CarahBurrell]

AWWWWWWW

[@alethearia]

I really enjoy looking at Bible stories as metaphors for real-world events. I hope you get into historical comparisons about what was actually happening at the time. Edit: gaaaaah! We're getting into PIE!! I'm so excited. Linguistics is so cool!!!

[@randinboise]

Closed captioning / subtitles please!

[@Rabano_Yodado]

The name of Jared, 1:42 Sorry I truly love these discussions, but I am sorry when I find flaws in the arguments. Im not a scholar, but my target is trying to find sense. The name of Jared is found in Genesis 5:15 which goes even before flood and the tower. in KJV it is spelled Jared, but in Hebrew it should be Yered which means descent or he who descended, as far as I understand. Pronunciation should be /iered/. Not sure. Again I love these epísodes. I see John Larsen and I immediatelly know it is going to be an awesome episode.

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

In order to reach the star-system Kolob how big of a tower would they needed to have constructed?

[@ryanthemetalman7161]

Kolob is another name for the planet Saturn, which sat VERY close to earth in ancient times. The ancients also referred to the planet as God/creator/El/AmenRa/Ra/Osiris/Kronos. Saturn, Venus and Mars were known as the El...ohim as they were the gods to the Ancients that sat very close to Earth in the sky at the time

[@jmt1335]

Guys, I'm laughing so hard. 😂 John D trying to say "cureloms and cumoms" or whatever crap JS made up 😂 But then the punch line: why the hell would his Adamic name be Jared???? Daryll 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Roger "C'mon Joseph!" - John Dehlin I'm almost sick from laughing

[@cdlahm7571]

1:44:00 I was under the impression that the tower was viewed by god as a threat because according to the ancient cosmology, gods abode was literally overhead on the firmament. If they built the tower high enough they would actually reach heaven.

[@ryanthemetalman7161]

That is because "god" in this context was the planet that sat very close to earth at the time, the planet Saturn. God in this context was the planet Saturn. Saturn, Venus and Mars say very close to earth in ancient times. The firmament was the perimeter of the planet and heaven was the planet itself. It looked so close as to make the project of building the tower feasible to humankind, essentially they wanted to get to heaven/saturn. They wanted to get to another planet. Either Saturn/God or Mars/God struck the tower down with a massive thunderbolt and this (by natural law) had a huge effect and the human brain, as we are electric creatures. A "short circuit" to the brain (and other organs) could and probably did have a huge impact on language, hearing, immune system functionality and many other things essentially making it a necessity to rewire and relearn speech. Our True God and Father is never threatened by humankind. Nor is he a planet. He doesn't throw hot stones out of heaven either. He is a man in form and function. Planets cause catastrophes, not heavenly father. Thunderboltsproject KZbin channel as an awesome playlist on all of this call discourses on an alien Sky if you're interested, very educational and entertaining at the same time

[@CrystalBbyUSA]

I believe in Jesus and the Bible but I remember when I was little the story of the tower of babel always scared me.

[@DavidKay1]

I think what John meant to explain is that Mormon wouldn't have been familiar with the term Jew because it wasn't invented or used until long after Lehi left Jerusalem for the Western hemisphere. In other words, finding the term Jew in the BOM timeline is an anachronism.

[@mariahbarr123]

Nevermo here, I IMMEDIATELY thought “huh. Old Joe REALLY decided on JARED of all names” as you all were talking about at 2:24:02

[@rtharalson]

I’ve laughed through the plan of salvation episode at least 8 times. Might be better that the transoceanic episode.

[@elizajanegoodrich8878]

Haha I always laugh through the doctrine of Cain episode the Bigfoot stuff gets me all the time

[@chuckkv]

Something important was said here. In the midst of the reformation, Smith wanted to go back and create ritual - you have to say the right things and do the right ceremony. _This_ is still treasure digging! You have to apply the formula of words and actions just right for the magic to work! The Bishop listening like a hawk to the sacrament prayer, the right words, arm position, and full coverage of a baptism, and everything in the Temple. And just like treasure digging it only applies to the entities on the other side because the last piece of the formula is to remain faithful till you get there and _then_ those incantations finally apply. Sealed up on earth is to be sealed up in heaven. If you mess up anywhere the treasure slips away on the other side.

[@sedg83]

is carrah going to be on every time John Larsen is on ? are they a combo deal now?

[@mormonstories]

Yes

[@jacobopstad5483]

My first thought when reading chapter 10 verse 5 about the people with various languages coming before the Babel story is simply that maybe the verses aren't meant to be understood chronologically. Maybe the narrator is jumping ahead to explain his present day situation (like in a parenthetical side note)

[@charlesmendeley9823]

The straightforward explanation is this: the chapters are a compilation of independent stories, and the compiler did not dare or care to make them consistent when putting them together. There are obviously multiple narrators. One narrator would never make such a mistake. It is a red flag for a compilation process.

[@lindaolsen7089]

As a never-in, I find these discussions fascinating. Of great interest and great concern is the rise of White Christian Nationalism in all stripes of Christianity. I'd like to hear more about this troubling trend and how good people, both faith-based and people who do not have a particular spiritual faith or practice, can combat this cancer on society. Thanks so much!

[@dianethulin1700]

All kidding aside I think there’s something to saying the “F” Word. It’s a little naughty to say it. it feels like such a release; one word the contains all the rage and contempt one feels. And the obvious that it describes the act of procreation and carnal pleasure

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

Especially if you don't overuse the word, it is a good catharsis. As a TBM I once said "F... the Church" and it felt so good.

[@dianethulin1700]

@@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155 Hear here!

[@brucee8332]

WOOPS! Bishop Ussher wrote his Chronology in 1654, dating Creation to the night of October 22, 4004 B.C. I was a century off--he's 17th century, when science had a long way to go before developing the Theory of the Big Bang.

[@jmt1335]

GREAT question, John Larsen: Why isn't God mad at Jeff Bezos? You guys... It's bloody comedy hour

[@bennyhinrichs]

1:42:46 Jared is the 6th generation descendant from Adam and the father of Enoch (Gen 5:18-20). When he died, Noah was (supposedly) 366. This is where our modern usage of Jared derives from.

[@starrynyte158]

Lol my dissertation is on Judges, I feel attacked. Ps to all women read the Levite Concubine if you haven't. It will show you exactly where you stand in the founding of all Abrahamic religions.

[@katbos4995]

1:20:15 to answer Carrah’s question: yes, Lori Vallow used scripture to validate why she and Chad Daybell killed her 2 kids.

[@allovertheplace9682]

Love the episode. One caveat, Jared is actually from Hebraic origin. It’s biblical pre flood, means descendants. It just gives Joe Smith more validity as a great assimilation artist.

[@gary_stavropoulos]

1:32:00 “it is fine to point out problems of Mormonism, as long as it doesn’t affect my beliefs”. If you don’t want your beliefs to be pointed out as wrong, don’t believe things that are demonstrably wrong.

[@andrewreed4216]

some points about the bible... 1) it's not writing in linear greco-roman form (originally), hebrew approached issues of time and space differently (that is why you're confused and most readers are whom don't study). (2) it's correct, most stories are thier to explain spiritual concepts and they didn't necessarily happen exactly the way we westerners read it. (please see the site; bible stories as blueprints for the soul), this follows gamatria (the hidden numbers/information in the scriptures). I am still an active LDS member ling in regional South Australia, I had to research separately as I know the church is behind on a few things but this hasn't effected my experiences like meeting the saviour from the ages 6 to 36 (before and after joining the church). I choose to study properly and listen to the spirit, I read from all good sources not just the ones I favour. I hope you can too.

[@kevintroy4329]

At 41:01 😂😂😂😂J. Larsen!!

[@kevintroy4329]

Why is it necessary for the whole world and its indigenous peoples, to convert to someone else's origin story!? It doesn't make sense!!

[@yvonnevzp]

In seminary in the 90s there was a lesson on the tower of Bable. Not sure about now. My boys didn't pay attention so don't remember even though they just did seminary

[@cce1014]

I object to Larsen’s 4 categories of “people who read the Bible”-there are religious liberals (like myself) who read the Bible regularly as Liberal or Progressive Christians and understand that it’s not historically accurate but gain from moral truths, the traditions, and connecting to those before us. It’s offensive to assume that Christians are essentially fundamentalists or the lying preachers who know better but pretend to be fundamentalists. Also, it sounds quite biased to say that if you read it you’re either unintelligent and if you’re smart and read it you should leave the church/reject Christianity (the unintelligent claim is especially insulting-we’re calling Desmond Tutu, Robin Meyers, and Rob Bell unintelligent?). Seems to be an erasure of Liberal Christians in this framework Larsen has provided and it’s unfair as well as false. The dialogue from Larsen at times on these episodes is edging on condemning Liberal Christians (which is a strange tactic to me because I’ve listened to many of these episodes and find Larsen compelling in addition to finding that Liberal Christians would be almost entirely in-step with Larsen’s message-since he’s usually rooted in history and science/has consulted good scholars). Some of the errors, though, also seem to reflect a lack of regard for Liberal Christianity that really bothers me. The mention of “Shelby Sprong” early in the video, while Larsen backed away from it, was likely a pretty huge error. That sounds like it was most likely a reference to John Shelby Spong, an American bishop who was an incredibly influential Liberal Christian theologian in the 21st century (unless he referred to some niche bishop that I’ve never heard of with an oddly similar name). I just hope this channel does better not to alienate Liberal, Progressive, and Post-Modern Theologians

[@BIGE1312]

Not only do we need to battle the falsehoods of religion but in academia as well. Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock are two people who I believe have found evidence of what really happened to ancient earth inhabitants. As Graham often says we are a civilization with amnesia. The pyramids and sphinxes also predate the flood and Egyptians.

[@kevintroy4329]

John Larson reminds me of Hagrid from Harry Potter, or John Candy.

[@Sadie37]

Love it!!!❤️

[@dwainisraelsen996]

I’m soaking up the John Larson Episodes. At first I considered him too left for me. But now I feel like his way of thinking is very similar to mine.

[@alexandrorocca7142]

The people who wrote the Old Testament were like ants inside an ant farm. If you shake the thing, the ants believe that the whole world is shaking, since they don't know that there's something else besides what they experience. That's probably how local floods became worldwide events or meeting people who spoke different languages needed some cockamamie explanation.

[@helenr4300]

Ch 11 says 1 language, then Babel - yet Ch 10 refers to tribes and languages. Part of the multiple voices edited together hypothesis - JDP sources etc. Like 2 creation stories, mix of 2 by 2 and 7 x clean animals in ark. Edited - written before you got to that bit. Not all believers take a literal view of all these early origin stories, nothing can be confirmed until after King David (can't recall which of the following kings first mentioned in cuniform texts ). Many of us see the Bible as people describing the development of their ideas of themselves and of God. and the OT largely edited in /after Babylonian exile - so echoes of the Sumerian stories and others.. And NT textually varies as the mentioned added ending to Mark's gospel. those of us with this view of the Bible are just as scared by the blinkered views of the nationalistic belief that is about a dangerous theocracy.

[@mhamblin00]

If I remember correctly Joseph Smith revealed the name Mohonrimoriankamer in response to early saints badgering him for the name. It sounds to me like Joseph was just trolling the askers. Like saying his name was googleheimerschmidt, or hoodillywhatzit or some other crazy made up name that sounds funny and is obviously fake. Joseph: "his name was Mohonrimoriankamer (snicker snicker)." Gullible mormon, "Oh cool I'm gonna name my kid Mohonrimoriankamer"

[@hildabingen8100]

I know a Mormon who DID name his son like that... Ouch.

[@kylieherbon6586]

My son was playing with a boy named Mohonri at the park last week 🤦‍♀️

[@joeblo7703]

Go to Tonga and Samoa….there are tons of Moronis and Nephis and Almas and Helamans, etc. The mormons there really go to town with the BOM names

[@jmt1335]

I'm sorry I do multiple comments. I'm in a different time zone so I can't join live chats. Or I have too much self love to stay up so late. Anyway. Even if Jared is an ancient Hebrew name, guys, John D was right: it would have had to be his Adamic name. Prior to the confounding of languages. According to the scripture this is when everyone is still one big happy family with one language......

[@joannashort7373]

I have a suggestion for another person who believes in the Bible. The one who knows it is a mystic book , rather than factual. That tells stories to help us understand ourselves and our relationship to God. Showing all different people and how they see God. I see God as love , but many others see him as retribution. We find the mirror of our fears and limitations in the bible and maybe we find away to move forward. Love your content.

[@slickmullet3891]

What’s you’re reasoning for saying “god is love” instead of love being love, and remaining agnostic in the god idea until there is more evidence for a god?

[@emilym.2830]

1hr:20 made me think of Lori Daybell

[@jonathana8411]

i wrote this a second b4 they started to talk about it, but They have failed to mention that this is just an ancient story to explain why ppl spoke different languages. period. but wasn't the whole point that G-d changed their languages and destroyed the tower, because the people wanted to reach heaven, or the skies or something like that?, and that's why the lord got pissed? which doesn't make sense anyways, because nobody could reach "heaven" or whatever anyway being a celestial place. why has g-d not knocked down the willis(sears) tower, cause we got a lot higher than mud/straw bricks could get. it's so silly

[@allovertheplace9682]

And then they make a correction, that’s what I get for jumping the gun.

[@brucee8332]

Lots of typos there. The Book of Numbers, boring on the face of it, still has the great benediction: "The LORD bless you and keep you. The LORD make his face to shine upon you. The LORD. Lift up the light of his countenance upon you and give you peace." Just you wait till I publish my book, THE WELL NOURISHED GRANDMA'S GUIDE TO THE BIBLE, The GOOD PARTS Version.

[@koriel-in-real-life]

"Some people listen because of the profanity by the way." Present!

[@bethc8432]

I’m confused - do literal Bible believers interpret the babel story as god created all languages at one time? That language doesn’t, gasp, evolve? How odd.

[@kerryholyoak5720]

Envelopes are gray now

[@Capdan58]

I have the perfect religion for John Larsen. Have you heard about Our Lard and Savory Bacon? United Church of Bacon, Bacon is our God because Bacon is real.

[@Angry_Toe]

I have been pronouncing so many words incorrectly my whole life!

[@brucee8332]

There are hidden gems in every book of the Bible, even Leviticus, which originates the great law, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

[@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155]

Is Jared, or the Brother of Jared, Votan? Number 32. XXX. Votan is the third gentleman that is put in the Calendar and in the little history book written in the Indian language which names all the neighborhoods and towns where he was. And up to these times in the town of Teopisca there has been a generation which they call Votans. Additionally, he says that the Lord of the Hollow Staff (which they call Tepanaguaste) saw the great wall (which is the Tower of Babel), which, by command of Noah, his grandfather, was built from the earth to the heaven; and that he is the first man that God sent to divide and distribute this land of the Indians, and that there, where he saw the great wall, was given to each people their different language. He says that Huehueta (which is the People of Soconusco) was there, and there he put offerings and a great treasure in a lobrega house, which he, with much effort, constructed, and called upon the Lady, with the tapianes (the keepers), that they might guard it. This treasure is of jars sealed with the same clay, and of a piece where is engraven in stone the figures of the ancient Indian gentlemen which are in the cochalchihuites Calendar (which are some small-green-solid rocks) and other superstitious figures, all of which was taken from a cave, and the same Indian Lady delivered, and the tapianes, or her guards. In the Huechuetan square they were publicly burned, when, in 1691, we made the visit of the same province. All of the Indians exceedingly venerate this Votan, and in one province they have him as the heart of the people. (Num. 34. XXX. Votan es el tercero Gentil, que está puesto en el Calendario, y en Quadernillo Historico escrito en Idioma de Indio va nombrando todos los parages, y pueblos, donde estuvo, y hasta estos tiempos en el de Teopisca ha habido generación, que llaman de Votanes: dice mas, que es el Señor del Palo hueco (que llaman Tepanaguaste,) que vio la pared grande, (que es la Torre de Babel,) que por mandado de Noé su abuelo se hizo desde la tierra hasta el Cielo, y que él es el primer hombre, que envió Dios a dividir, y repartir esta tierra de las Indias, y que allí donde vio la pared grande se le dio a cada pueblo su diferente idioma: dice que en Huehueta, (que es Pueblos de Soconusco) estuvo, y allí puso dantas, y un tesoro grande en una casa lobrega, que fabricó a soplos, y nombró Señora, con tapianes, que le guardasen. Este tesoro era de unas tinajas tapadas con el mismo barro, y de una pieza donde estaban gravadas en piedra las figuras de los Indios gentiles antiguos, que están en el Calendario cochalchihuites, (que son unas piedrecitas verdes mazisas [macizas],) y otras figuras supersticiosas, que todo se sacó de una cueva, y lo entregó la misma India Señora, y los tapianes, o guardas de ella, y en la plaza de Huehuetan se quemaron publicamente cuando hicimos la visita de dicha Provincia por el año de 1691. A este Votan lo veneran mucho todos los Indios, y en alguna Provincia le tienen por el corazón de los pueblos.) Francisco Núñez de la Vega, Constituciones diocesanas del obispado de Chiappa (1702), pages 9-10. As I did this translation myself, feel free to check it.

[@drbulbul]

Jared is actually a biblical name. See Genesis 5: 18-20.

[@katbos4995]

I need the profanity. It helps me stay grounded and not fall back into the fake perfectionism of Mormonism.

[@starrynyte158]

I'd like to add one more person who reads the Bible: religious and history scholars who don't believe but need to understand it to study the culture, past and present, but pretty sure we are a tiny minority lol!

[@mrmattycake]

I just saw a video of John explaining logical fallacies a couple days ago, then today I find myself disappointed to see him conflating abortion and unintentionally causing a miscarriage.

[@kevintroy4329]

The Towet of Babel is a joke, si are the people who spout this. In the Americas, the Native American people have the most continental linguistics variation. If They arw just Jews and have been there for only 4, 000 years, why dont the speak one Semitic language, inst e ad they speak over 1500 separate languages.

[@hturt4]

John Larsen-you miss (or perhaps purposely ignore) two key facts. First, God’s time is not humans’ time (see 2 Peter 3:8). Your assumption that biblical time frames are identical to our modern measures of time is erroneous and careless. Second, it’s well known that Bible authors use the literary tools flash-forwards and flashbacks in telling their stories. It’s obvious Gen. 10 uses several flash-forwards to lay out the genealogies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, ending the genealogical flash-forwards for Ham and Shem with the same phrase: “after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations” (Gen. 10:20,31). So no, these are not anachronistic with Gen. 11:1 because they flash-forward beyond the time of 11:1. The timeline then flashes back in 11:1 to the time before the tongues and nations were established to explain how they came about. John Larsen, you, sir, are in error. And it’s such an egregious error it calls into question your competence and integrity. By your own description, you fall into either category 3 or 4 (or both) of your classification of the 4 types of people who read the Bible: those who read it and constantly lie about what it says, and those who read it and aren’t very smart. This podcast is not your best work. I was impressed with your episode about the Church’s amicus briefs. Now, after this episode on the Tower of Babel, I’m wondering if you’re the same guy who did the amicus briefs episode. Seriously, this Tower of Babel episode is so bad it makes you look like a fool or a charlatan.

[@KatsyFGA]

I'm deeply disturbed by the difference between what Larsen said around 52m and what he said 1h30m. At 52m, he brought up Spanish and Portuguese and said, "Why would He create two languages that are close but not quite?" then when Dan Hardy pointed out that the Bible and Mormonism don't teach/require that God created all today's languages at Babel, Larsen said that nobody believes that, and claimed it's a strawman. But he literally said it himself, about 40 minutes before! If that's not what he meant, somebody please explain what he did mean by bringing up Spanish and Portuguese, and asking "Why would He create two languages that are close but not quite?"

[@brucee8332]

Bishop Ussher in the 18th century wrote a chronology of the earth. Bishop Spong was our beloved and extremely LIBERAL Episcopal Bishop of Newark, who died last September., 2021

[@michaeldavis146]

I find itdifficult for john to take the atheist reigns as hes pointing out the niv's fine , barf . Your talking about the first katabol in heaven , slightly ahead of manifest destiny , inthe united states . 1877 . Look up the definition of katabol . Thats how much john doesny know or care to learn definitions of and well go with the niv , thats fine . Why not the kjv . Thats where you get the rest of the lesson that apparently john or hos atheist audiences arent willing to acknowledge.

[@tkdgalsamm]

It’s a proven fact people who say the “F” word a lot are more intelligent. 😬😂

[@llamamama2910]

Lehi was of Manassas, not Judah-wouldn’t Moroni know about Judah? Were they calling themselves Jews in Egypt or Jerusalem-all 12tribes-huh

[@blainefarnsworth5569]

Faith John when the translators and organizers of the Bible they put it in many books. Trying to organize the books in a correct time line but it was not exact time wise. Many writings by many different authors collected organized books written 100's of years apart. Got to have faith John. Found the Ark on a hill. Found a shroud with the blood in print of Christ's face. Just uncovered buried large square temple pool, believed to be healing pool where paralyzed man in the Bible couldn't ever get in the pool for healing . Jesus told him to pick up his bed and walk and he did. It's location seems possible that it is that temple pool. The New Covenant scholars put it at the beginning of Mathew. Should have started on Galgotha when Jesus said it is finished. Jesus crucifixion and resurrection was the end of the Hebrew law and the beginning of the New Covenant. Belief in Jesus sacrifice for the world's sins for those that have faith. Have Faith John.

[@AlbertJLouie]

You guys base your information against the existence of the Tower of Babel is "outdated" Smithsonian Institution has found the actual building site of The of Babel in modern day Iraq. A table was discovered with text and drawings. Actual building brick that was use to build the Tower of Babel is on display in a museum. Smithsonian Institution has this discovery on a video that was on Smithsonian t.v. special. Take a look at it and revise your outdated information.

[@chloewright9561]

this is not true

[@codylittlefield7397]

??? What are you referring to?

[@chloewright9561]

@@codylittlefield7397 most of what they said is not true

[@codylittlefield7397]

Okay 👍