The Trans Debate: Three Questions to Shed Light, not Heat

[@tomfrombrunswick7571]

The trans thing is very important to trans people. For America is should be a non problem as the numbers of trans people are so tiny. The reality is that what is happening is political. Right wing influencers are trying to distract from real issues like wage levels and income inequality. They thus flood the zone with this stuff as a distraction. They have no qualms about othering trans people as there is no political cost

[@cgpcgp3239]

The trans issue is an issue that activists intentionally made political around sports, prisons, free speech, bathrooms, shelters, schools, laws, self ID.

[@stormburn1]

@@cgpcgp3239Isn't that what OP said? Right-wing influencers are also activists.

[@cgpcgp3239]

It’s not just conservative evangelicals. I’m neither. A lot of liberal democratic voters feel the same as I do about sports, prisons, shelters, free speech, self ID, children.

[@Alex-xp5bc]

I confess I'm impressed you actually did shed more light than heat. Perhaps this comment can also. 1. Approaching the therapeutic question independently of our philosophy of gender may have strange consequences. 1a. Let's say a therapist who is a radical feminist believes that no clothing is truly "women's clothing", but surveys of transwomen find they report being happier wearing women's clothing. Should this therapist pretend to believe women's clothing exists and endorse a male patient with gender dysphoria try wearing some. Is this lying? Would such lying be okay? 2a. Let's say a social conservative believes segregation by sex is good for society, but they want to support their child who is trans. Should they encourage their child to deceive others and try to pass in spaces intended for the opposite sex, or should they encourage them to express their gender identity while remaining among spaces intended for their natal sex even if this often causes confusion and frustrates their child? 2. What sorts of personal experiences might cause you to doubt the majority view of trans issues among subject matter experts? Hopefully, the answer isn't nothing. If the majority of experts believed there are no black swans and you see what is clearly a black swan, you probably should have some doubts about the no-black-swan view. I admit this is risky business to entertain. It can be very easy to over update our views due to unrepresentative experiences we may have, but surely people with minority experiences can sometimes judge better that which undermines a majority view then experts lacking such experiences. 3. How should we respond to people who seem to be viscerally disturbed or even horrified by the idea of people transitioning? Perhaps this is mostly a product of a dominant culture which stigmatizes being trans, but let's say a significant portion of the population continues to have such attitudes even in a culture that is dominantly trans accepting. Is there any trade off here relevant to our conventions around trans issues. Sincerely, a detransitioner wrestling with these issues just like everyone else.

[@EnglishMike]

If only conservative evangelicals were as concerned about the number of kids who are killed by guns every year. In 2021, over 2,500 children were killed using a gun. That's 10 times the rate of Canada, per capita (another nation with high gun ownership) and a shocking 100 times the rate of the UK where gun ownership is strictly controlled (and no, the handful of stabbing deaths don't even start to make up the difference). If they cared about the children at all, they wouldn't be cheering on legislation to remove what few limits remain on gun owners, or to limit children's access to the most dangerous they'll ever encounter, and they wouldn't be demonizing the mildest of gun safety law efforts as government tyranny even as they attempt to pry their way into the medical decisions made between private citizens and their healthcare providers. At this point, it's really hard to take anyone who demonizes the trans issue seriously. It's nothing more than a political scapegoat in the wake of losing the gay marriage debate. Trans people are simply the latest to be dragged into the firing line -- black people, brown people, women, gays, immigrants, etc. -- in order to ramp up the fear and disgust they use to keep the right-wing voters onside.

[@alexrothwell2053]

That's very America-centric. It might be a good quesiton for American evangelicals, but wouldn't apply in Canada or the UK.

[@EnglishMike]

@@alexrothwell2053 Correct, but conservative evangelicals have far less influence on the political debate in Canada and especially the UK where there's essentially no constituency at all.

[@alexrothwell2053]

@@EnglishMike Right, but their political ideas would be quite different because of their cultural context. The point about guns simply wouldn't apply in the UK for example

[@steveng.clinard1766]

You must also consider the costs of withholding treatment. No course of treatment is without risks. Not treating gender dysphoria is deadly. How many suicides are worth saving the 1% who would regret their transition?

[@robertwheeler1158]

Unfortunately, I don't think that therapy can be separated from philosophy. The problem with modern secular psychology is that it has a problem defining what is "normal." What forms of behavior require therapy and what kind of therapy? Transgenderism is rooted in the Existentialist notion that existence precedes essence, that essence is artificial and man-made, and that we should be free to define our own identity. The problem with that is that we still have to come to terms with objective reality. We are born with certain physical characteristics. Human society functions on a male / female dynamic. So what is the most humane and compassionate way to treat gender dysphoria? Make radical alterations to a persons otherwise normal healthy body? My personal experience with transgender people is that they cannot relate to the gender to which they are trying to change, because they have practically nothing in common with them. They wind up becoming more socially isolated than ever. And physically they will never have bodies that exactly conform to the gender to which they are trying to transition. How does that help them? Would it not make more sense, therapeutically, to help them work through the underlying emotional issues, and possible childhood traumas, so that they can feel comfortable with their physical birth sex?

[@haruchiacc806]

What does "in common" even mean here?

[@emersonb.5399]

Why is it important for people to have bodies that exactly conform to their gender? If a transgender person is happy with their transition and they aren't bothered by the discrepancies I can't see why it should matter to anyone else.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@emersonb.5399 The main point that I am making is that, in my experience, transgender people can't relate to the gender to which they are trying to transition, and wind up becoming more socially maladjusted than ever. And then if they should decide to detransition, they can never go back to having a normal physical body.

[@emersonb.5399]

@@robertwheeler1158 I'm not sure I understand. I'm a man but I've always been friends with plenty of people of both genders, and have no issues getting along with either. It's not as if we're different species. I relate to people based on their values, personalities, and interests, not their gender. I've only known a few transgender people in my life but to me they seemed to be the same people before and after transition, only much happier after. I do think it's important that a person is very sure of their decision before making any permanent changes like surgery. It's certainly not something to rush into.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@emersonb.5399 I apparently got fired from one job because a transgender person who was trying to transition from female to male, couldn't relate to the male employees in the office. So the manager, in her infinite wisdom, decided to fire the two male employees who sat the closest to this person. Both of us were older, socially conservative male employees and military veterans. This person had practically nothing in common with us. From what I understand, the transgender person quit anyway. Then there is a nearby Walmart where I do seasonal work. After a while I noticed that this person, who was trying to transition from male to female, was the only Walmart associate in the store who would wear a dress or skirt to work. So one day I asked a female colleague of mine, and she said that if you work in a place where you have to clean counters and stock shelves, and you wear a dress or a skirt, the garment is likely to catch on something and tear. So if this person really identifies as female, why doesn't this person dress and act like all the other female employees in the store. (Quite frankly, he was a grotesque caricature of a woman.).

[@ChristianCatboy]

THANK YOU. It really is a therapeutic issue. I would like to add that gender dysphoria is often not merely a psychological issue. When a trans person goes on hormone replacement therapy, that physically alters their bodily gene expression. It's a medical treatment for an endocrine disorder, like diabetes. You can't "pray away" diabetes, and "conversion therapy" doesn't help a person whose mind is being physically "poisoned" by its own natural hormone production. Psychiatric therapy doesn't work, because it's a medical problem, like diabetes. People don't get obsessed with wanting to be castrated for no reason! I was rapidly healed from serious alcoholism and self-harm rituals within a few months of HRT. The Devil does NOT deliver people from demons. Clinical medicine gives ample evidence that gender-affirming care saves lives. Of course my experience is only an anecdote, but it's also the testimony of a Christian. I followed the traditional script for 30 years. At some point, it becomes necessary to fear God rather than man, when one's own soul is at stake.

[@haruchiacc806]

I do not think this is similar to the trolley problem here much. In this trolley problem, if you switch the button, then you are deciding to sacrifice the person on the other track to save 5. You are deciding other people's lives, trading 1 for 5. A person who may lose their life has no say in here. Trans people, if they go drastical surgical intervention, responsibility belongs to them, and choice is theirs. Out of these 100, all 100 made decision to proceed with surgery. From what we know about God, we are allowed, even required to learn responsibility and that actions have consequences. Of course kids have limited responsibility and they need to grow it. But there are ways to delay puberty till they reach proper age. Point of no return should not be crossed here. But for adults, it is their responsibility.

[@mercy2351]

Also, the trolley problem involves a strictly binary choice to either press a button or not, whereas different transgender people can make different decisions for their own personal situations that may or may not involve all possible medical interventions.

[@harlowcj]

The point of no return that you refer to is quite key. How long can puberty blockers be taken before the effects are at least partially irreversible? Long enough to mature to the point where you are rationalizing your own choices rather than being rationalized towards a choice by peers? That's tough.

[@haruchiacc806]

@@harlowcj As far as I read, they can be taken very, very long. They should give enough time for person to grow on responsibility for taking care of themselves and making decisions, good or bad. What we need to do, is to ensure they do actually grow to make the decision. If we dont, then we made an error not in giving puberty blockers, but simply raising a human. Irreversible changes are caused by: a) more taking hormones of opposite gender b) Going through puberty itself c) Making surgical interventions If we want to delay all irreversible changes till responsibility age, then taking puberty blockers are the only currently known solution as of now! I would love all to consider this.

[@stormburn1]

@@harlowcj"Partially irreversible" is very fuzzy phrase. It's worth noting that both going on blockers and going through natural puberty are partially irreversible past a point. If someone is trans and would benefit from blockers and HRT, then denying them that treatment until they're 18 or older would be putting them through the partially irreversible process of puberty. Doing nothing isn't neutral and the evidence last I checked says that medical intervention was the long-term right option more than 95% of the time (ie. the patient was happy with the result and wasn't misdiagnosed).

[@geoffb5728]

When it comes to kids in particular, who are extremely impressionable, it seems pretty obvious that we should not be indoctrinating them with gender ideology or permanently altering their bodies (cutting off body parts, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones). That is not charitable. That is cruel and evil.

[@EnglishMike]

That same impressionability is the reason why the vast majority of adult Christians are Christians (same for other religions). Is that cruel and evil? Or is it only cruel and evil when Muslims do it, and thus effectively inoculating their children from Christianity for the rest of their life? Without indoctrination -- immersing children in the faith from a very young age -- religions would lose the vast majority of their adherents in a single generation. And I'd be willing to bet that conservative Christian parents put far more pressure on their kids to be Christians than parents of kids with gender dysphoria do when discussing treatment options with their child.

[@alexrothwell2053]

@@EnglishMike You are right that during childhood we absorb a very large proportion of our beliefs and values from our parents. You are also right that a natural consequence of this is that our religious adherence (or lack thereof) as an adult will always be strongly influenced by what our parents believed. However, the fact that this is normal and neither unethical nor cruel doesn't mean that we can do and teach whatever we like to children

[@j.victor]

You're absolutely right, my dude

[@Filippo-yd6jq]

No one is cutting off body parts of children. I was 100% against that before I discovered that it isn't happening, despite the lies of far right media. Similarly, children aren't being given cross sex hormones. Puberty blockers just delay puberty, they don't result in permanent changes. They allow to become adults before deciding

[@stormburn1]

Please look into the actual stats and ages for surgical intervention and the actual effects of puberty blockers and HRT. Long story short, surgical intervention prior to 18 is practically non-existent (single-digit extreme cases total; stats showing more include referrals, not actual surgeries) and puberty blockers and HRT have minimal side effects even for the tiny fraction that regret it (

[@ruthielouise]

Interesting but for me the the main point to consider before whether the risks of pursuing different therapeutic options are justified is, why are we even confronted with this novel philosophical question? Why has gender dysphoria increased so dramatically in the last 10 years and why has the profile of the people reporting it changed so dramatically (from overwhelmingly boys to mostly girls, and from presenting in early childhood to at puberty)? Are people just increasingly likely to be born in the “wrong” bodies for some reason? I find that unlikely.

[@emersonb.5399]

Maybe it's more easily recognized now due to an advancing understanding of the condition? Like with autism - it used to be thought of as a male disorder but now we know it occurs in girls as well, and so more girls are being diagnosed. It's not that they're becoming autistic; medical science is just catching up to reality.

[@thelmaallen9424]

Did you know that studies showed that there was an increase in the percentage of the population that was left handed from about 2% in the early 30’s to about 11% in the early 70’s? Was that because there were suddenly more left handed people? No, it was because for years and years to be left handed was considered a shame or even evil and punished; so people who were left handed hid or distorted their natural inclination to be accepted in society. As people began to understand left handedness as a natural phenomena, left handed people became free to be their natural selves. So I’m wondering - could we be going through a similar shift in understanding concerning people who are LGBTQ+? For years the majority felt uncomfortable around this minority of people because of their differences. “It’s not natural.” many said, and called it evil. Yet, as we learn more and more about the human body, and things like chromosomes and hormones, we’re realising we were wrong about that.

[@cgpcgp3239]

⁠@@thelmaallen9424I can tell you as a lefty an increase left handedness was not accompanied by social pressure by peers to be left handed. Lefties weren’t cracking righty eggs. Celebrities didn’t parade their left handed children. Kids who were always righties didn’t come out as left handed as a teen then changed their mind years later. There was no thrill from writing with your left hand in public.

[@MybridWonderful]

Here's a thought: mind your business.

[@geoffb5728]

When kids are being harmed it’s everyone’s business

[@MybridWonderful]

@@geoffb5728 Unh hunh. The Bible says to not spare the rod on children. When people spank their kids is that everyone's business too? How about every other medical decision parents make for the kids? Do we get to weigh in if we think they are hurting their kids?

[@belialord]

That implies being selfish and not caring about others. That's what "mind your business" really stands for.

[@harlowcj]

Evil has never been overcome by turning a blind eye.

[@geoffb5728]

@@MybridWonderful Get real. Cutting off healthy body parts or injecting kids with sterilizing drugs is not a medical decision. It's child abuse.