The truth about banned gaming models

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[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Just to be clear, I love both games and settings and so please refrain from taking shots at each others communities. We are all hobbyists and love what we love. Dont yuck others yums please and thanks

[@bartswargaming]

How dare you be reasonable. Also love the shorter videos. They are great!!❤

[@kombatwombat6579]

Never ick their likes. We all have our little ways to survive.

[@W1DO]

One of my friends goes through companies very like this and helps them change how they do business to make a bigger overall profit rather than spend time screwing other departments to pretend to be better for the company than them. It makes soo much more sense for them to make less doffrent models and sell more of each by having models in both games. G W are shit at making money, despite having great ways to make money. It doesn't matter to shareholders which department makes the $, it matters that they make tons of $$$

[@martinjrgensen8234]

You’re not my dad

[@nurglematthew893]

This is the way.

[@garbagecan755]

I work as a Business Analyst. Companies doing dumb stuff like this is what keeps me in a job. GW basically have 2 actual teams, the Fantasy team and the 40k team. Both teams make an Introductory product, a Primary product, and an Expert product. GW instead decided that the best way to structure everything would be to have those two teams be four teams, and for those two additional teams to be sub teams that compete against the main teams. This is just a horrible way to structure a business. The accounting becomes more difficult, but the bean counters get paid the money to do the work. What GW has right now is two sets of teams competing against each other. Their best case scenario is one where both teams iterate competitively but then silo off their innovations and process improvements so only half of the company actually gets the benefits. You want these teams working together to increase profit cross functionally. You want the SDS team coming to the Main studio saying "Hey we found this cool new technique in CAD that saves a bunch of time and money." where as right now they have it structured so that the teams are incentivized to do the exact opposite. They need to grow up, realize it's 2024, and that their Department Heads primary goals aren't to raise all ships but to protect and increase their budget.

[@codyvandal2860]

Great comment

[@nutellanorbert2799]

Exactly this was my impression couple of years ago which led to my decision not to start to work with them in product development. Catched Horrible top down structure vibes and strong silo thinking

[@jamesgraham6492]

Bro "keeps your in the job" part was hilarious. You must have so many funny stories of dumb decisions

[@KneeCapHill]

And to think all of this could be fixed by ending AoS

[@Spacefrisian]

This isnt just a thing for companies, its also a thing with local authorities (in my case the Netherlands). They are made up of several departments each doing different or similar things and its often their intention on how to get more money from the taxes they collect even when its taking it from other departments in the same local authority. Also one of the reasons why stuff takes longer to get approved than it is actually needed.

[@trevorbailey1101]

I’ve started calling this the Forgeworld Heresy.

[@aaroncarlsback7239]

Indeed GW has become like the fictional Imperium that he wrote ;)

[@grimm_40k]

For fully half of the company turned traitor...

[@grimm_40k]

@@aaroncarlsback7239 The recent Jordan Sorcery interview with Andy Chambers is interesting for that as Mr Chambers kinda intimates that some of the references in the lore are actually thinly veiled commentary on the internal workings of the company. Write about what you know I guess.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

This is especially true in necromunda

[@highmarshalkenneth3284]

That is the most idiotic way to run a business. Customers are the ones that really lose using this way of doing business.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Always has been

[@THE-HULKSTER-]

but they still buy it.

[@nutellanorbert2799]

Not me - I am out. Because from now on no army pr warband is safe. If it doesn’t sell or they got production issues: cancel. This is not a software - it’s hardware. Physical stuff that is getting plastic waste lol

[@zawert23]

Thats why I started 3D printing full army proxies. Love the game, hate the compagnie

[@Bluecho4]

Which, in turn, hurts the profits of the business. I kept thinking, back when the Old World was still on the horizon, that GW could make a lot of money by double-dipping their products to two different audiences. Having, say, Beastmen be a range of models that both AoS AND Old World fans would buy _makes the company more money._ If anything, GW should be aiming to make as many kits as possible compatible with as many game systems as possible, to increase the overall value of those kits. _Instead,_ because each department is siloed and in competition with one another, it hobbles their profit-making potential. Now that AoS players (or potential AoS players) know that Beasts of Chaos aren't a legal army (or won't be next year), they're not going to buy those models. Not everyone wants to learn Old World (a far more complicated system with a different playstyle). So by cutting off this cross-compatibility for Beastmen, GW has ensured they've LOST that revenue stream. As it turns out, cannibalizing your own profits through needless internal competition is a BAD THING.

[@Crushanator1]

just to agree with and support the "GW is a pretty badly run business" i worked at GW for 5 years in the early 2000s and told the head of GW US in person (2007ish?) we should take advantage of this new thing called "KZbin" to put things like painting tutorials and battle reports online and he literally laughed in my face bc the in person stores were seen as so much better marketing it would be a waste to have anything online. Like the amount of laughing as if i suggested we just make the product free as a way to get more people to play.

[@luketfer]

Trust me that's just Execs all over. Back when I was an assistant manager at a Blockbusters in the UK, our yearly 'address from the CEO' talked about how the US branch had turned down buying Netflix and how it would have been an un-needed expenditure. The next year he said that streaming services were "a fad" and that they would never threaten brick and mortar stores. The next year...well he wasn't there to do the call because he'd mysteriously resign from his position just before we were bought out by Dish (which confused a LOT of business analysts because the chain was virtually bankrupt at that point) and took a golden parachute. Dish just used Blockbuster UK as a tax write off because we were a loss making company and so did nothing to support it and within a year or so, went into administration and I was out on my ass.

[@Godonstilts]

For a pretty badly run business, it sure is making £MILLIONS

[@scottwallbank4794]

​@@GodonstiltsPlenty of companies that profitable whilst having a dumb company structure. One doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the other.

[@Godonstilts]

@@scottwallbank4794 and yet it can't be that dumb if its making £millions in profit... Room for improvement? Sure. But lets cut the crap about calling it broken/terrible etc.

[@toughfudgecookies4706]

I work for a large car manufacturer and can confirm it works a similar way for us.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Wild system TBH

[@toughfudgecookies4706]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams encourages alot of internal competition and politics. I work in software dev and we have to fight for the survival of our team to not be replaced by other software teams. Have to stake claims on what is our responsibility and what is another teams responsibility otherwise we become a dead unfunded project

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

I worked in rail industry manufacturing for a long time and it also feels familiar. I think there can be multiple causes - management at particular sites concerned about their site's future (sometimes fair enough and maybe what's going on here in a way), individuals wanting the figures in their favour for their own benefit (not so good), misunderstandings about where costs are actually incurred etc but also even when everyone who actually knows and cares what's really going on would be happy for things to be resolved sensibly sometimes the higher levels of management are not interested in understanding the extra level of complexity so everyone underneath finds themselves having to go back to fighting their own corner.

[@THE-HULKSTER-]

>Be FIAT >Alfa or Maserati >make fast car >wait now its faster than a ferrari which we also own >make your car slower pls many such cases

[@willcorcoran]

Same but in banks and law firms. Stupendously frustrating.

[@Pers0n97]

You know that meme from futurama "I'm shocked, SHOCKED! Well not that shocked". This is my reaction listening to this.

[@ADhammer]

Siloing is the most unproductive and British thing I have ever heard 😂

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Very British

[@EarlofChutney]

Internal competition between service departments, billing between sections etc, this is pretty common in my employment experience within large PLCs. Most restructure constantly in a whack a mole approach to problem solving.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Such a silly system

[@DNolan1919]

I work for a big business primarily focused on strategy, employee experience and company culture. Ultimately the majority of large organisations are run by accountants. Nothing against accountants, lots of lovely people are accountants but when they have too much power in strategic decision making, you get scenerios like this, where generally consumers get forgotten about and lose out due to internal politics. I get the positives of setting up this way but the negatives very rarely get considered. And for those people who say its the culture not the structure, a key driver of behaviour is environment. This structure drives poor decision making 95% of the time, and its really bloody difficult to be in the 5% :)

[@valheffelfinger6521]

In this case, GW is literally run by an accountant lol.

[@DNolan1919]

@@valheffelfinger6521 this makes me sad...

[@nutellanorbert2799]

We need more designers in director positions who advocate the customer

[@onionhat745]

I just realized Ungor, Gor and Bestigors could make fine Marauders, Chaos Warriors and Chosen.

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

Look around, there’s been a full conversion list floating.

[@em3sis]

My beast army is nurgle themed, they maggotkin now.

[@newtpondskipper]

I used Gor as my marauders for years before selling my beastmen. Now I don't have enough marauder...dumb move in retrospect.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

It often seems like these companies want endless metrics in order to understand themselves, in lieu of just actually taking the time and getting to know how their company works. If as the CEO, I just understand what the design team does, then yes I can be aware of what they cost annually to have, but I don't need a lot of spreadsheet numbers, I simply understand what they do, how it serves my company, and where it fits in to the overall process. People often seem to struggle emotionally to accept this, but a fantastic number of C-suite executives are paid very high salaries to do hilariously little work.

[@jacktbc3947]

The reason for tons of paperwork is cause that is what the government wants. The system sounds complex but from an accounting point of view (myself) it’s sounds fine.

[@seanwilliams7073]

The definition of an executive is someone who gets paid millions to do nothing

[@TrulyLoathsome]

GW to Beastmen 2015: lol you can't play with those bases, m8, too many corners. GW to Beastmen in 2024: no circles allowed m8, you need squares lol!

[@ce4879]

2018* Round bases weren’t required until they noticed TK were winning tourneys because squares let small models squish attacks in better. This has been your “Umm, Ackshually” for today.

[@mikem2808]

Gw ungors: weve switched far too many times

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

2030: We unite the worlds of the Horus Heresy and the Old World! Rebase all your Legiones Astartes to square bases!

[@draconomega]

"All these squares make a circle"

[@hughwyethhughwyeth]

To quote Steve Jobs- "If you were a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copier or computer. So what? When you have monopoly market share, the company's not any more successful. So the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, and they end up running the companies. And the product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products. The product sensibility and the product genius that brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running these companies that have no conception of a good product versus a bad product." GW is not alone in this - it's standard for monopolistic positions. Any hobbyist of seniority in GW would see it's great to have models that work in multiple systems. Marketing and spreadsheet bros cannot see that - the immediate reward of no overlap is more clarity with sales reports and more short-term sales. But it is at the expense of longer term sales and customer loyalty.

[@goblincomic4522]

Yep so loyal we will resort in 3d print to spite them

[@hughwyethhughwyeth]

@@goblincomic4522 I mean if you're wanting to be spiteful, just play a different game? None of us are imprisoned by GW. There's literally hundreds of technically better games systems out there

[@BlastastiC]

@@hughwyethhughwyeth this is true, but the rub is that many people have a huge emotional investment in these worlds and their IP, often over a very long period of time. Like, for myself - I'm just not interested in Dark Warriors of The Corrupt Realm Whatever and French Knights of the Equitainne Kingdom Of Indie IP Infringement.

[@nikolaivanov7816]

You somewhat make it sound like GW had made great product but nothing they do nowadays compares... I'm not really sure their product was particularly better at any point than it is now. Some practices maybe, but product, not so sure?

[@mateuszwisniewski3877]

@@hughwyethhughwyeth I have walked away back in WFB's 6ed. Never bought a GW miniature or played any of their games after that. Plenty other fish in the pond, and if one looks around, they might find one that suits them better.

[@allancarey2604]

I just like to say…I work(ed) in multiple large corporates as an accountant….in terms if P&L’s, its exactly the same. Also…the cost of shared services like marketing tend to get shared (with inter department shenanigans) It can be a problem if not done right culturally…it can lead to distractive head butting.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Wild stuff. Thanks for the comment

[@capt.mannerings8095]

I think it depends alot on how the company is set up. The company I'm currently working from is transitioning out of a product centric model which sounds very similar to the way gw is run. As you said it can cause massive problems if not done well and lead to the customers experience not being valued highly enough. I think now more than ever once you alienate customers it can be so much more damaging. Customers are more immune to the tactics of the marketing fueled messages and sales approaches.

[@Dandyphonic]

I've worked in one of the biggest multi national in the world and was part of a country management team and I've seen both models. We cannot assume anything here. We've BU centric models with shared services and costs with a repartition key and I've also seen separate BU with completely separated services when it comes to supporting the business. For example, I've seen Marketing teams that were within each BU without a shared P&L and corp communication teams shared (hybrid model).

[@allancarey2604]

@@capt.mannerings8095 - so in my experience, it leads to fiefdoms & lack of internal co-operation. It stems from corporately rightly saying to x division, justify the resources put into you & manager your job depends on it. I’ve worked where it’s destructive & luckily now I work where the 1st ideal is “we help each other” with a high expectation on performance. And it’s down to leadership from the top (which has been the 1st time in my career). Anyway, it would be fascinating to know more about the logic behind it all…personally I’d thought it all should be complementary…but I suspect it would come down to the rationale on why TOW is around in the 1st place which I suspect is GW placing a firm foot on Kings of war & Malifaux and model completion generated by the 9th age

[@KarhsXII]

this explains SO MUCH. I've been wondering for years why forge world models had their rules published separately (and why they were very obviously not written by the same people as the rules for 'real' gw/citadel models) I'd thought "they must not be allowed to talk to one another" as a joke, but the idea that they really are facing direct financial and career incentives to not talk to one another is absolutely wild

[@FredrickDouglass69]

So we are gonna lose the ability to play kill team datasets in 40K.

[@DotJus]

If they just sold the rule books / codex’s as big colourful Lore books with art and stories, I would buy them.

[@tomfagrell7357]

This is what I would refer to as ”controller sickness”. It makes cooperation between different departments impossible. Controllers are my least favorite workplace people. Along with maybe HR people and mid tier managers and people in analytics. And bosses. And just co workers in general.

[@Mr_Waffle.]

IIRC Peachy mentioned on The Painting Phase that years ago the main studio painters used to all sat together (and the designers with each other) and hopped between different products so they could always do something new and fun, but then the teams were broken up amongst the products (40k, AoS etc) so you become stuck doing the same handful of things over and over and hurt morale. I didn't know there was a divide all the way down to the money level, it explains a lot though. Thank you for sharing! (apologies to Peachy if I'm misquoting him)

[@Hebwastaken]

So GW just based the Imperial bureaucracy on their company structure?

[@grimm_40k]

Andy Chambers pretty much said that in a recent interview.

[@terraneaux]

@@grimm_40k I'm guessing Goge Vandire was based on Kirby.

[@Tulkash01]

My recent experience is this: I am an old (4th Ed old) WHFB player and hobbyists, and an even older enjoyer of WHFRPG stuff. I have no interest in AoS stuff, nor I hate the player base. If they are having fun, good for them. When tOW was finally released I bought all the books and bought several AoS kits to refresh the armies I play (Dwarves, WE and HE). I did this from both GW online store and independent stores that had boxes of compatible AoS stuff that had not sold. As you can see, this internal distinction at GW between the 2 studios is completely passing over my head. I buy stuff for the old world. I will (hopefully) do a big purchase when the dwarves are released. I will keep buying AoS Silvaneth kits to update my WE tree spirits and won’t probably buy the old tree kin for the Old World. GW internal division may have some meaning for them in order to measure who does what but in practice it will fail to accurately account for the real reason people buy models. In truth it is inane. And damaging to the community. And IT DOESN’T WORK. Expect A LOT of Warriors of Chaos players to buy the new Darkoth to use as Chaos Marauders for example. AoS will count those as sales for that game but in truth those sales will be generated by the Old World. At the same time I expect a few AoS players to buy the new Ungrim model for their Fireslslayers and those sales will be generated on the Old World but will truly be for AoS. In the end people are free to buy whatever they like and GW internal divisions can do little to change this reality (luckily I might add).

[@just_gut]

Same but in the other direction. I also starter in 4th ed WHFB, but I have no interest in TOW, but will buy those kits as needed to fulfill my wants for my AoS armies. For example, I just bought a Brettonian Knights on Foot kit and made two AoS units out of them for Cities of Sigmar because the look fits better than the existing AoS models. There are interesting uses for much of the Tomb Kings line if you like that aesthetic but want to play Soulblight Gravelords. I agree that GW's own internal division is really a "them" problem, but when the parents fight like this it is almost always the kids that suffer.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

Please note, there is no reason to think that “GW are only evil demons”, and “FW/ToW team are pure angels”. Who knows, if ToW becomes popular, maybe in the next edition they will also carry out a “purging”? For example, by turning the Wood Elves into just elves and removing the wood spirits?

[@draconomega]

They should honestly give you the option to say what setting you are planing to use the figurins. that way you can "support" the setting you are planing to use them for

[@just_gut]

@@draconomega The issue with this is buying from an independent retailer. It would be a big ask of an FLGS to undertake this reporting effort for every kit they sell.

[@draconomega]

@@just_gut True. But they should at least give you the option for when you buy from their stores or the website.

[@Raygun9000]

I freelanced with specialist games way back when. Regarding forge world: this was a 'private' enterprise acting as a subsidiary with a limited license for gw IPs. Specialist games was part of the main studio. (They worked together but it wasn't streamlined, they had to go down the road to the other site to collaborate). Later on specialist games was shut down to save money. Forgeworld was 'bought' by gw if memory serves.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Thanks for the info

[@Raygun9000]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams I worked on both studios. The contrast was jarring. Forgeworld was a warehouse filled with resin kits with sculptors working at the end by the stairs. And imperial armour being written upstairs in Tony's huge office. The specialist games 'studio' was an extension of the main studio, really nice work space, cafeteria, and windows. 😄

[@Manlio.Cipullo]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams they basically got merged with Forgeworld and now they are both renamend Specialist. They were and i think they still are, at least the ones from that time who are still in the company, the hobby nerds, they were such to the extent to keep alive rulesets for free, like Mordheim and Bloodbowl when they were dead (and other games too)... Fan favourites and too much indipendent for the new GW... I think they are struggling right now, they have to make profit with games they would handled differently, like Necromunda.

[@guleri]

I have no idea how to run a big company. But I would think it would be good to have miniatures that could be used for multiple platforms, that way you would get players to play on different platforms. I think all figures suitable for 40K should be possible to use in 40K no matter if it is released as a Killteam unit, Necromunda unit or anything else. I understand the rules might have to differ a bit to adapt to the different systems, but that would be ok. Same with the AoS, Warcry, Undrworld and variants, make all units made for the "smaller" games also available to use in AoS, so people can play more with the minis they have. Also I would love to see units work both for AoS and Old World if possible when it comes to the factions that can be used for both systems (release the sets and the rules, and let people choose for themselves if they want square or round bases).

[@ExileDCC]

Thank you for this video, it was really illuminating. It definitely explains why communication with the community historically was so poor, since no one in the company was even talking to each other. Thanks again.

[@soulassasin1001]

Have to say just discovered your channel and loving the content and communication style. It's like a 40k channel but for AOS

[@EarlofChutney]

gw senior leadership often seem like Harry Enfield in the I Saw You Coming sketch.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

hahah absolutely

[@scammbledeggs2707]

If a GW employee sees this I think I may have a small solution. The main problem is when someone buys a model that can be played in multiple game systems, GW doesnt know what game system it will be used for right. How about when someone buys a product online on the webstore they are prompted to select the game system that they will likely use it for. And you record that ratio between the different game systems. Then you get the total profit and loss of a kit(including stores and trading stores) and distributes these profits into each gaming systems profits according to their ratio of sales on the website.

[@sp4nnered]

The split of departments and P&L is so arbitrary. For example, they don't care if you're buying Daemons for AoS or 40K, because they happen to be the same team, even though they're different systems. The bigger problem is that tOW doesn't get to have Skaven, because AoS dibsed them, which will hurt the health of tOW as a long term system and product line, which hurts the company as a whole, individual department P&Ls be damned.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

I wish more players would watch this and understand GWs decisions aren’t based on “balance”.

[@_Annomander]

This is a really common thing where companies separate things out by division. Banks separate personal banking, mortgages, business banking, commercial lending, investments and wealth management, etc. Product companies separate manufacturing, distribution and direct retail. The rationale is that companies within a group operate distinct business models or product lines, or service specific customer segments, or effectively "sell" services to each other. Retail and distribution generate cash by selling to external customer segments (trade and consumers), manufacturing sell to Retail and Distribution, operations/admin sell services to all the divisions, design (like the sculptors or book writers) sell their services of creating IP to manufacturing, etc.

[@SamuraiMujuru]

James Stephanie Sterling had a video where they described Nintendo being a game company that's being ran like a toy company, and I really think a lot of those points apply to GW

[@DolusMilan]

As always, thanks for not being like most of the other talking heads on KZbin when 'GW-drama' happens. The content you make really adds something and is knowledgeable. Keep it up Ron ;)

[@LordBilliam]

Well, that explains the faces of the presenters at Warhammer Day when Old Wolrld got that huge cheer - I thought it was a look of surprise: "Oh no, we underestimated and need to readjust our plans now", but it was actually annoyance: "Nooo, the other team are going to do well!! How will this affect AoS?!" ...or something like that

[@Dakka9007]

Thanks for this mate, this whole saga has been a wake up call for me to actually get the stuff i already have painted up and on the table and stop buying new stuff, or risk never getting to play them. While i certainly dont agree with this business practice it really helps to know why things happen this way and will help make more informed purchase decisions later down the line.

[@overlord3051]

"....not necessarily how it works. So that's how it works". xD Joking aside, love your content and became a Patreon last month. From my experience with corporates, the whole idea of different departments competing with each other is so common that I can't help but wonder if there are any big corporations that don't have internal competition.

[@oldman747]

the internal selling is traditionally called "blue dollars" in america

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Think they are called wooden coins here

[@CodyMatlock-hd3ej]

This video actually gave me a bit to think about. and was really helpful

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Im glad i could help

[@orkimedes]

Very well explained Rob. Thanks for taking time to make this quick video. I really wish they approached this in a mature and informative fashion instead of fobbing off it as a ‘retirement’

[@gsheist]

Rob, really interesting perspective on GW. Totally understand how it evolved to this point, but such a structure fails to create a business model totally focused on the core of their profit: efficiently manufacturing and selling miniatures. I worked as a product planner and strategist for GM, so maybe my take is somewhat different, but the structure you outline has MANY impediments to making their economic engine run optimally. It explains a lot. Hopefully they level up their leadership and restructure the business appropriately. It would fix a lot of headaches that their customers currently experience.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Hey! Thanks for the insightful comment. I'm not saying it's good it just is what it is

[@gsheist]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams This underscores why I’m not going to dive into the Forgeworld range for Custodes. I suspect some will migrate to plastic, but they’re too expensive to take the risk at this point.

[@redsven7624]

Department ledgers are fine, as long as the company overall and most importantly the customer good is placed foremost. What you describe is petty or immature individuals in the wrong place and weak senior management allowing it to happen. Another example of poor business causing disservice to the customer. Side note, the biggest barrier of entry to killteam from my experience is the rulebook. The worse written rulebook I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

[@Majormore]

As long as Tony makes money and profit he’ll be allowed to keep FW / SDS. Same for the Hobby team under Dave who make the paints, scenery and tools. As well all the other separate siloed fiefdoms. White Dwarf magazine has bounced in and out of the main studio. I think its content was best when it was integrated in the studio but we had more freedom when we were separate and our own department hidden away. So there are pros and cons. But yea weird things go on, I remember the hobby team running into friction when one of the scenery designers made a kit that could be considered a “miniature” as they weren’t allowed to make minis. Permission had to be sought as only the miniature studio can make minis. Then back when I was in the main studio it was cool having Forgeworld separate as they were seen as experimental and able to explore cool things quickly that could feed into main 40K. But having it separate and competing does nothing for the hobby.

[@FlipityGibett]

This method is what put Sears out of buisness. There are some great articles on it. They took this huge company and destroyed it by forcing their internal sales teams to compete like this. There is a false belief internal competition leads to outcomes, instead it puts you on the knife’s edge.

[@verigone2677]

Tony was the chap with the equipment and know how to copy Armour Cast sculpts for both metal and resin, and thus Forgeworld was born, part of the original contract was the ability to focus almost entirely on one off models and upgrade kits, at least that is what I understand from the early days of Forgeworld around the time of the very first issue of Imperial Armour.

[@thesoothsayer9223]

Did the picture quality improve? Looking good Rob thanks for the insightful content as always

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

yeah!! Smuth

[@guidobeulen]

Its a crazy way to run a business and to think about added value between departments. In the end it's about making products that sell, that build and support that wargamer community, that triggers them to try new game setups or configurations as well, so GW can add mini's that, sell them, and create that stepping stone that leads from a warband to multiple 10000 point armies doing glorious battle on a table that will never even fit your home (this is again where that community comes in)

[@zaidi450]

It's the Red boxes against the Blue boxes! Classic fantasy / sci Fi story

[@RandomIdiotGS]

Okay, I did not know this to be a fact although I always assumed it could work like this, but I expected that on more "mutually agreeable terms". Basically what you're saying is that the various teams (incl. Forgeworld as the "outsourced" party and mainline GW) battled it out for which models they produced and which sold. This also pit them together internally based on what each team could use for whatever projects they wanted going on. And so fast forward to today where they have tried merging the ranges into one (if we would go by the new webstore) except they kind of haven't behind the scenes and potentially part of this model range moving has to do with those inner politics? If I summarized that correctly then basically GW is making the departments independently financially responsible, including the Forgeworld team. Up to that point it kind of makes sense from a business point of view. Except the part where it is potentially a toxic inner politics civil war. There should still be a CEO or C-level layer active in the company that says "no, you are expected to do this and be responsible for this and these are the projects your team is going to be working on, period". I also feel like the whole profits discussion is moot because surely one can use models of the other department for the purposes of their department if they get a fair share of profits for their work on the mutual project. Like from what I hear, it sounds to me like a C-level at work that doesn't know how to manage their projects and doesn't know how to manage their inter-department finances and just lets all the departments fight it out by themselves. Yeah, THAT PARTICULAR PART, now that's not how you're supposed to run a business. So if that's indeed how things still work over there then that does explain at least some of the incompetence (e.g. inconsitent bloating of model ranges, price inflations and inability to keep stock of products).

[@alistairmyles4260]

One thing I always notice about KZbin content made by former GW staff is the sense of liberation and relief. Duncan R, Peachy, Rouge Hobbies and yourself all seem to be let off of the leash and content becomes a lot more engaging and thought provoking. I find the same is true with game companies with former GW staff. Mantic, Warlord, Riverhorse etc. They might not be the biggest fish or have anything like the sales sheet to match but they sure as hell are more about the hobby and the fun aspects.

[@bigtom8925]

Ive just bought 2 BoC vanguard boxes last month, nearly painted them up for tournaments. I'll still have them for over a year, and I'll proxy the models as other models as a 'ghur' variants eventually. What hurts though is that because BoC are leaving AOS, I have zero faith that BoC will have decent rules in 4th edition so really ive got 2 months of tournament left. Also it hurts because this has happened because of a dick measuring contest between 2 aspects of GW.

[@davidoliver3528]

Try Old World?

[@bigtom8925]

@@davidoliver3528 thanks for trying to make it better David. I went to the launch of old world at WW and it just didn't grab me as a game system. I've made good friends in the AOS tournament scene too

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

@@davidoliver3528 Do you have any evidence that next time GW will not treat Toш like 40k or AoS now?

[@WorldOfWeebcraft]

Really appreciate the open nature of this video 👍

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@sgtcanardo1]

I work for a small software editor and my company is structure like that as well. It can create some fristions beteween devs, sales and the guys runing the servers.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

It's very common but not great

[@nutellanorbert2799]

And hiring process wise. I was in the hiring process 2 years ago for a role at hq. i denied at the end because the whole process was incredibly stiff and unprofessional (and underpaid af). The people where nice af tbh! But just not the level of professionalism that I am used to. And after the launch of warhammer+ I was happy for my decision. And seeing what they are strategically doing I am even more happy for dodging this bullet.

[@nicksmith.arch2]

I'm assuming (no inside knowledge at all) that some of the structure of GW has long historical roots. When I was a kid and first got into GW you had internal brands such as Citadel and Marauder. I always preferred the Marauder minis. But the company and the shops were branded Games Workshop. The paints, books and some minis were produced by Citadel. Other minis or products by Marauder etc. But Citadel only existed within GW. Over time Marauder was dropped. But Forge World cropped up. If I remember correctly, if certain employees wanted to try something new then they might be given a new branded bit of the company to prove it could work. If it didn't bring in enough money, that bit would be folded whilst protecting GW's brand. It started just as a retailer/importer of games. And when they started making their own games, they were lots of different and often wacky ones. The DNA of that time still exists with things like Blood Bowl or even Necromunda. Also, even in the 1990s, it was such a small group of people creating things. People would move from one role to another. No surprise that as it grew bigger, some of that still remained. Although, over the last few years it does seem to have become more professional. Compare Warhammer TV now to the first videos Rob used to do for them! Loved them though - the exitement of the first Sylvaneth book!

[@hendrikrasmus]

You can see in the newer warcry kits how being designed for aos warscrolls has changed them. Now they have their troop and what doesn't fit isn't included on the warscroll.

[@EricOdinson]

Great post, sir!

[@christopherwhaley5655]

Thank you for explaining how they do it

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

“I don’t think underworlds is getting canned” You literally said that exact thing in the other video, my dude. 5:30 mins into it “they’re doing X cause they’re probably deleting underworlds.”

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

I know and to be clear, i think it might. I dont know if it will but in my opinion it could

[@Tentfox]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams The way it sounds to me, is the models are currently selling "well enough" to not cancel Underworld, but they have a theory that if not for people buying the models for AoS it would not sell "well enough". So to test the theory, they stop producing AoS rules for UW models, and if the sales drop below that "well enough" line the theory is confirmed and UW gets cancelled.

[@kimmatzen6504]

@@Tentfox And in the mean time, they have almost dubled the price of Underworlds Warbands from what it was at the start. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not buying as many even though I like a lot of them. Not using cross compatibility to boost sales is beyond dumb.

[@mistformsquirrel]

@@Tentfox That seems really dumb though... like... why not just accept people buying models regardless of why? Like I get 'because of everything in the video and GW being stupid' but... a sale is a sale. if I buy say... Horus Heresy minis for 40k, they should be glad I'm still buying GW stuff generally; instead of 3d printing something much more affordable.

[@thewok]

​@kimmatzen6504 I got every warband from Shadespire, Nightvault and Beastgrave. I stopped buying cores after that and cherry-picked warbands. Now I don't even buy those unless they really appeal to me (and they haven't for a while). One thing I liked about UW was that it was a fairly inexpensive game. But their rotation schedule is too fast for me, and I no longer have any real desire to play the game.

[@TheLeeBC]

It feels like there should be a big boss at the top who tells the two departments to stop being petty and put the needs of the customers first or there will be new department heads who will. Where is the leadership? Forge World is a part of GW now so this two department nonsense needs to end. I've been hearing these rumors for a long time but this was the most in depth explanation of the rumors I have heard. Great insights. The fact that these departments are measuring profit and loss independently of each other is why we are getting screwed now. I still can't get the logic but I get they are being dumb. They'll make the beasts anyways for ToW so why not make rules for AoS? You only need to make one more book a year GW.

[@Arcodus]

Thank you, this video was very informative 👍

[@guioni87]

I work for a ~700 person Tech company that has a bunch of different “products”; in short it sounds kinda similar to GWs structure in terms of having a bunch of products. I know a bunch of our internals, and seen how we changed when we went from ~400 to ~700. It sounds like GW is a trash fire compared to how we do things, where we use things like KPIs to determine how various products impact things across our org. Like, you can get data points and actually see performance based on those, without all this ridiculous infighting.

[@user-xq3vt3co7r]

I was guessing something of the sort was happening, but it's nice to have a confirmation from the insider.

[@matthiasbreiter4177]

I agree with your previous statements - it was obvious for a long time that those miniatures going to be discontinued. It is nice that you can still play them for some time and then put them into the Old World.

[@UntiltedName]

Kill team kits are absolutely a good 'double dip' type purchase to have something for both game systems. Though most established 40k players can make a kill team from their army, they just wouldnt have the hot new kill team-specific sprue in the KT box.

[@javierpeiroaguado4503]

The main problem is the communication. I have all Chaos warbands of warcry, I play Age of Sigmar and Warcry too. But right now I don't know if 14 of my 19 warbands (I have 4 of them repeated to Age of sigmar) are just squatted from both games... Horns of Hashut have less than 2 years... Is like a 600€ or more losses in terms of playability. I drop the question on X and Instagram, but they doesn't respond. Also, the second chamber of Stormcast was released on 2018. 6 year models. Some of them have "proxy" support, but others, like the Ballista or Tauralon.... I think they need implement an internal rule of 10 year support for miniature after their release or someting, because as a consumer, squat nearly all my warcry collection, beign relatively new don't encourage me to buy anyting else from them.

[@michaelpipe5488]

Fascinating video! This explains so many odd decisions that GW have made, yesterday’s among them.

[@Fortunes.Fool.]

I have an important question: does this mean someday I’m going to be told I can’t use AoS models (like my Chaos warriors) for The Old World in GW stores or tournaments?

[@tysonwollas235]

This video makes so many choices GW has made make sense. Thank you.

[@cras9450]

This is exactly how it worked at my old employer, who sold nerd collectibles. "Retail" sales (sold to physical stores or other webstores) were competing with "subscription" sales (sold to customers as a partwork), which were competing with "direct" sales (sold on the company webstore). This meant that the webstore sales team had every incentive to offer frequent discounts and deals on brand-new collectibles... even if doing so undermined the value of the products for dedicated subscribers or retail buyers, and hurt the company as a whole. Not their problem! It was all numbers on their spreadsheet, not on anyone else's.

[@dzav8909]

This is actually insane, glad to know it's going on and should never have been the case.

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

Just seems like a dumb idea not to let people use their expensive models where they want. One of the main reasons Killteam hit off was not only because how affordable it was, but also how versatile and accessible it was. You could dip into a faction and play games with it without having to spend hundreds of pounds (£). Killteam made 40k more accessible.

[@boboayame2065]

If this is true, and I suppose it must be, this company is absolutely doomed. Someone needs to grow up and knock some heads together

[@BloodKraven]

Great explanation and video!

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

Appreciated

[@GekiJidai]

This is very enlightening, particularly as they're such an infuriatingly opaque company that refuse to share anything tangible outside of their carefully controlled WarCom articles and utterly useless social media team that spout vague, meaningless platitudes in response to any questions.

[@shorelessskies]

Nice one, Rob. Sometimes it you you’re too hard on Warhammer but you’re just looking out for us and keeping an eye on that villain James Workshop.

[@christopherszynkowski2524]

This sounds like a recipe for an extremely toxic environment

[@soniqjihad]

Love your channel and appreciate so much the thought, enthusiasm, and creativity you bring to this community. Keep up the great work! That said, your semi-regular tirades against the shadowy boogeyman you call “capitalism” are coming off like miserablist grievance airing. Please consider the trade offs and steel man that with which you disagree!

[@speedyspeederson]

So just so I'm clear - if Bonesplitterz or Beasts of Chaos are moving to Old World then are these models that are being discontinued going to reappear again (with square bases?) or are they dead and any savage orcs and beastmen in old world will be different models altogether?

[@TheRotbringer]

The job I work for runs similar. It’s the same company, but a few different sub sectors all competing against each other.

[@p3BA]

8:00 my man mentions the Leviathan Dreadnought... My wounds are still too fresh for this..:( #BlackTemplarLeviathans

[@Campaigner82]

I had absolutely NO idea the different departments competed against each other…..

[@CanonessEllinor]

Clarification question: can you lay out which lines are Mainline/Citadel and which are Forge World/Specialist? Obviously 40k and AoS are Mainline and I knew before this video that Blood Bowl and Necromunda are made by Forge World, but the rest of the side games I’m less clear on. Is everything outside 40k and AoS made by the Specialist department?

[@kglguy]

Yes. AoS, Warcry, Underworlds, Kill Team, and 40k are all GW main, whike Horus Heresy, Nercromunda, Blood Bowl, Legions Imperialis, ToW, and Adeptus Titanicus are SDS. Aeronautica Imperialis started as a main studio game set in 40k, got shoved into SDS (presumably for not meeting sales targets), reskined to be set in the HH, and then sort of forgotten about .

[@NapGod]

I must have missed this stream. I don't remember this and it's legitimately insane. how does a business function competing against itself like that

[@thatoneguynobodylikes8553]

This is exactly what I expected it to be like. It makes perfect sense to me from a data tracking and management standpoint. It's how budgeting is done in a lot of major retail based businesses. Being able to see how your investments are returning is the only way you can grow as a business.

[@valheffelfinger6521]

There are just better ways to accomplish the same thing. Ways that don't result in significantly poor experiences for the customer.

[@thatoneguynobodylikes8553]

@@valheffelfinger6521 I'm not defending the practice, simply saying that it's exactly what I thought it would be.

[@user-ub1dz8js7s]

This is so peculiar. So aside from P and L for GW and FW in terms of valid minis to be played in WHtOW can Rockgutt Troggoths from AoS be used in tournament play (GW) fir WHtOW ?

[@youtubevanced4900]

It hasn't been a mum and pop operation since the late 80s when it became a public company.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

its run like one

[@Chris_da_Waaagh]

For profits and loss on items that span multiple systems... Why not make a requirement for the customer to state which game system they intent to use the items for. That data then gets used and the funding for those items gets directed to the correct side of the company....

[@SeventhVoltaEcho]

Do you think there is hope for BoC getting an aos version like Morghurite Beastkin or something along those lines?

[@WarGamingTips]

I work in payroll, every company has a general ledger and cost centre codes for each department, its the only way to get granular reporting for your business. Im just highlighting this process is normal and not the cause itself for the "civil war" mentioned.

[@MAZGamingUK]

Yeah, was going to say the same. My old company had exactly the same framework and it worked really well.

[@capt.mannerings8095]

Depends on the company set up. For a product centric approach then yes it is relatively common however that doesn't mean it's the only way. My current company is transitioning out of a product centric model to a customer centric one due to the problems the product centric model caused.

[@RandomIdiotGS]

Having a departments with their own responsibilities including financial targets/responsibilities is perfectly normal. However, having those departments fight things out amongst one another totally isn't normal for a business. There should be a clear idea of what projects are being worked on by who and where the money flows based on C-level instructions and based on the explanation in this video it SOUNDS as if C-level direction is entirely missing here. You don't let departments fight it out themselves. Ever.

[@kapitankapital6580]

I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. As you say, this kind of departmental budgeting is common, but so too is inter-department politics which this "civil war" is just a particularly bad instance of. I know it's eye-rolling but the last sentence of the video is kinda right, this has a lot to do with how we structure our economy. These big companies are run like tin pot dictatorships and as such they lack proper channels for resolving these kinds of conflicts. When you look at the way large businesses fail, they often reflect failings in nations with low institutional quality, whether that be corporate greed, internal factionalism, lack of transparency, harmful incentive structures or anything else.

[@StriderofDoom]

Sounds like they need to rethink and simplify their KPIs. Not to mention a restructure to prevent their departments battling with eachother. That kind of competition is not healthy for company culture and indicates a total lack of long-term planning. Also, there are probably technical solutions for tracking this information they’re not investing in, forcing them to rely on not the best information to make their decisions.

[@valheffelfinger6521]

This. GW has failed repeatedly to implement modern enterprise management software. It's why they're so terrible at forecasting and stocking the right amounts of product. Beyond that obvious problem, this sure seems to be a way to bootleg "cleaner" data about what is selling... rather than having the tools to link customers purchases to the systems they're using them for.

[@greendalf123]

I feel like this doesn’t make sense or is fair. I want to play Old World, and I will, but Jesus some of our sculpts are old. So, AoS get updated versions of warriors of chaos but the old world studio is stuck with the ones from 10+ years ago? I’m sure most WoC players will just use the AoS versions. Do you think the axe will fall further? Could slaves, seraphon, get axed? If not, due to updated models, does that mean that Old world miniatures cannot be updated? Even if the game is a huge success?

[@TheGreatBizarro]

I see this as a result of a making a mom and pop enterprise into a corporation. They are trying to run things somewhat like it was when it was a small enterprise but not as a corporation should be run and so is quite disjointed. Everyone is not pulling in the same direction so the ship goes around in circles and never reaches port.

[@MrSphandor]

Great video that explains why they never achieve the success the ip deserves.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

They are so close

[@Mikarovic]

@@thehonestwargamerstreams How can they be close when the cause of their failure is the global economic mode of production? If Capitalism is the problem, then their success hinges on global proletarian revolution completely overthrowing private ownership of the means of production.

[@SebasPosada]

It's completely normal, happens in a gazillion companies, and it helps to keep each product supported. There's no civil war.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

There literally is. You are wrong

[@squidjuice666]

Thank you for easing my mind somewhat about ogors because they were my first AoS love when they were still beastclaw raiders. That being said can they please get anything new??

[@BeepBoop2221]

The hiring for fit is still a thing from when i interviewed with them.

[@sp4nnered]

This sounds an awful lot like the deranged internal markets introduced at the Sears department store in the US, under Lampert with an assist by Steven Levitt (of Freakonomics fame). They split the company into more departments and introduced internal markets that lead to departments acting in such strong self interest that it undermined, and accelerated the collapse of, the company as a whole. Not nurturing the blatant potential for overlap in production between AoS and tOW makes it such a perfect example of the deranged outcomes of this model.

[@andydunn3835]

Tony got his kingdom due to his idea to build tanks in the 90s particularly the Baneblade 1st kit which was massively successful due to mark up, Forgeworld has its own profit margin targets which are drastically lower than Citadel and Publishing. What's mad is it is setup in competition deliberately in design to engender competition and drive development mad 🙂

[@MrDWinpenny]

Amen

[@dragonofsk9632]

So far I have also bought all Kill Team sets specifically for WH40K.

[@thehonestwargamerstreams]

this happens alot

[@seppingtondestamina9398]

So can anyone tell me, given that they're doing things like retiring the entire Sacrosanct chamber (i.e. all models with SACROSANCT keyword) does this mean that when they talk about old heroes being retired does it mean the same i.e keyword on Warscroll? I'm thinking "Lord Celestant" being shown as being "retired to Azyr" would that mean that "Lord Celestant" being Keyword on the Lord Celestant on Dracoth/Stardrake/Vandus Hammerhand/Gardus Steel Soul Warscrolls mean they are also retired? They've already gutted my army here by about 5000pts in one fell swoop, please tell me it's not going to be even worse than I thought??