The Truth about Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Jr.

The Kongs have a rather complex family dynamic that needs to be sorted out. You'll find all the answers to that here as I explain the Donkey Kong family tree. It may or may not be as complicated as you think...
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[@lonedivider]

At 1:30 I made a mistake. I said Cranky never called DK his grandson until DKC 2. I forgot he called him his grandson in the DKC manual. For that entire line I though I said "in-game" which would have made the statement valid. My bad.

[@alexwilcox4075]

I refuse to live in a world where DK Jr has been retconned out of existence!

[@Eris1987]

Don't worry, he isn't.

[@orsonzedd]

He wasn't retconned out of existence, he's the current Donkey Kong! That's just a straight up upgrade. That's like finding out Dick Grayson grows up to be Batman

[@DaNintendude]

There's a couple important things to note here. Donkey Kong Jr actually has both a child AND adult design. His adult design was used in Super Mario Kart and Mario's Tennis for the Virtual Boy. He's significantly larger than his child design (just as big as modern DK, if not bigger), he's got a full set of teeth, and he even has sideburns. Cranky Kong went from adult to old man pretty hecking quick. And even Tiny Kong went from child to adult in a very small period of time. The conclusion to make from this is that Kongs do indeed age really fast. The current Donkey Kong could very well only be 5 years old, like you joked. DK could've matured into adulthood after just a year or two of living. I absolutely agree with the claim that "kongs live most of their life in their prime." Cranky was probably near the end of his prime when he had Jr. And just a few years later he greatly deteriorated. Nintendo has been pretty firm in the description that Cranky is DK's grandfather since... well, forever. The one official time that Cranky was DK's dad was DK64. But ever since then, he's always been referred to as DK's grandpa. The Movie is the first time he's been depicted differently since then, and I do think that's just to simplify things. DK's father issues were supposed to mirror Mario's. Even though Cranky calls DK his son in DK64, the Japanese localization changes it to grandson instead. It's possible people like Leigh at Rare were trying to retcon Cranky into being his father, but Nintendo shut them down and ignored that. DK being Mario's pet is actually not as outdated as you'd think. In an interview for Donkey Kong (1994), Miyamoto talks about the game's plot with some of the other developers for the game. He claims that DK is Mario's pet, and that he's messing with him by kidnapping Pauline. You're absolutely right about people's perceptions of this being off though. The Mario & DK pet dynamic honestly is probably closer to a Scooby Doo situation, where one is an animal but they're really more like roommates. In DK Circus, Mario isn't even stated to be the owner of the circus. He doesn't throw any of the stuff DK is juggling, and all he does is just laugh at his performance. Seems more like Mario is just there to enjoy the show, and he's not actually the abuser people think he is. Him caging DK was in retaliation for the chaos he caused in the Arcade game. The jungle Mario captures him in is actually a forest nearby the city, as shown in Donkey Kong (1994), which has a re-creation of one of the DK Jr levels in the background. Mario is definitely acting rash, but he's doing what he deems to be right in that moment, which is bringing DK to justice for the havoc he caused. I don't think it's fair to completely discount DK Jr as "probably not happening anymore," although I get the reasoning behind that decision. Baby DK is really the only real issue. Because obviously DK can't be a baby at the same time as Mario. The only plausible explanation I've seen is that DK was kidnapped from a different time period. Kamek & Bowser traveled back from the future, so it's entirely possible they picked up Baby DK on the way. We know the stars fell in the time period of Baby Mario, but it's possible DK's star just lay hidden in the Jungle floor for years until he was born and found it. Baby Yoshi was born after the events of the game, and he still got a star. So Baby DK could've been born later too. It's definitely a stretch, but you're gonna have to stretch regardless because the devs were idiots who didn't realize how messed up Baby DK was. The whole plot of the game is idiotic with all the star children stuff which just doesn't make any sense and contradicts loads of stuff in the future. Anyway, it was interesting to hear all your thoughts on the matter. I think people act pretty stupid when it comes to the debate, and they just say things that they prefer instead of trying to say things that make sense. So many people like the idea of DK Jr being the younger form of modern DK because they just think it's cool. I really liked the segments calling out the "Baby Cranky" nonsense and Bowser's age from the Parental Controls video. I can't believe anyone is stupid enough to believe those are their canon birthyears. It's just crazy.

[@Eris1987]

Ah nice to see someone else who understands the lore, only difference is your comment is loner than the one I made and includes and lacks stuff. Also, that interview where Donkey Kong is called Mario's pet. Do you know where I can find that? I've been trying to find it.

[@orsonzedd]

Cranky Kong is the original DOnkey Kong, and the Current Donkey Kong is Donkey Kong Jr. Easy peasy.

[@DaNintendude]

@Eris1987 I left a comment before but it looks like it either didn't go through, or it's been deleted. A translated version of the interview is on shmuplations' website.

[@orsonzedd]

@DaNintendude To be honest the reason I like the Donkey Kong Jr. is current Donkey Kong thing is it doesn't ask too many questions. I can more easily accept a retconning of DK's relationship to Cranky than I can "Donkey Kong Jr, icon of the 1980s, disappeared and no one knows why", but honestly what cements it for me is the film just out right going the father son route.

[@Eris1987]

@@orsonzedd that's a non canon version like the SuperShow King Koopa and Koopalings.

[@commanderblackheart5856]

My head-canon is this: The events of Donkey Kong 1 & JR take place in the recently established Metro Kingdom where Cranky & son commit a genuine act of terrorism by abducting mayor Pauline, Mario stops Cranky and after he is locked up, Mario act's as a guard to ensure he cannot escape but jr evades capture to free his father from incarceration and ultimately make a getaway. Eventually Cranky and Jr go into hiding, Cranky eventually retires to Donkey Kong Island (which he likely founded to evade the law) while Jr remains in hiding. To this day no one, not even Donkey Kong lll knows where the one now formerly referred to as Jr is and he is presumed dead until proven otherwise.

[@Eris1987]

DK Snr didn't capture the Mayor, Pauline is believed to not have even been the Mayor yet. The reason DK SNR kidnapped Pauline was because he was pranking his owner Mario, and trying to get a rise out of him. It's also established DK SNR and Mario aren't actually enemies. DK SNR and DK JR do come back for some more rounds to mess Mario repeating their prank in games like DK SNR, and even going after Princess Peach. Eventually DK JR does on to join Mario in Mario's Tennis and Super Mario Kart. DKC and the Kong Archipelago as a whole seems to be the homeland of the Kongs and where an ancient Kong Civilization once was. You also have the events of Donkey Kong being remembered and turned into a festival in Odyssey. And it it's even made into a musical with the grandson playing the part of the OG DK.

[@Eris1987]

So Donkey Kong Junior is indeed a character canon to the Mario World and the father of Donkey Kong the Third. Cranky Kong is the Donkey Kong Senior. In multiple sources from Nintendo such as in game information, in manuals, and more it is established that Cranky Kong is DK the 3rd's grandfather. DK64 having Cranky called DK the 3rd his son was a mistake, hence the comment. As for the Movieverse, Cranky being DK's son in it was more than likely there to make Mario and DK have something they can relate to each other over. Regardless the Movieverse just like the SuperShow and Mario + Rabbids games, have no effect on the Main Canon of Mario Tales. Unlike what many people believe the "spin-off games" like Mario Kart, Mario Party, and other Sports games are actually canon to the Gameverse. Many games reference the events, elements, locations, and lore from these games. As for the 7 Star Children, there is nothing about the Star Spirits that hid inside of them when hiding from Bowser having to stay there. But let's say they did, a possible hypothesis is that the star spirit goes the next generation afterwards. For example Bowser Junior would be the new Star Child in place of his father. That aside the Baby DK is left ambiguous on which DK they exactly are. Another thing to note is Kongs canonically have been shown to age rapidly with a short amount of time. Cranky Kong between games, Tiny Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior. While you might have forgotten about Tiny Kong aging rapidly, you might be questioning DK Junior. Well if you pay attention to some of the games you can actually see DK Junior growing up. In Super Mario Kart DK Junior is fully grown. A little attention to detail people miss over right there. Also, the quote is "they are LIKE a troop of actors or one big family" This is a simile, and doesn't mean they are actors.

[@orsonzedd]

No, There's no DOnkey Kong the 3rd. DOnkey Kong Jr. the current Donkey Kong hasn't had a child.

[@pepelagarto8110]

You forgot to consider that gorillas live like 35 years

[@Eris1987]

At least in the real world they do, not so much in a high fantasy world with different rules.

[@pepelagarto8110]

@@Eris1987 and? He used humans real like age expectancy

[@Eris1987]

@@pepelagarto8110 first off, he is wrong about the whole DK Jr hypothesis he puts forward. But secondarily Kongs in the Mario World age rapidly. We see this with Cranky Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Tiny Kong, and implied for Donkey Kong III as seen by the previously mentioned Kongs we see it happen with. Because of the in universe rapid aging of Kongs, the lifespan of real world gorillas doesn't apply to them since their world has different rules.

[@KairanFarr]

Gorilla's live to 40. They show signs of aging at 35. Mario is 25 and the oldest DK could be is 28 (Bowser's age)

[@pepelagarto8110]

@@KairanFarr thanks for supporting my point

[@gabcard2767]

Maybe Mario isn't intended to have a concistent canon.

[@Eris1987]

It is intended to have a consistent canon, and upon close inspection it's surprisingly consistent.

[@KairanFarr]

I wish that with Cranky being 1981 DK and being DK's grandfather, they made Jumpman Mario's grandfather and we could have a story about the Mario's and Kong's being enemies for generations and Mario and DK broke the cycle of them being enemies

[@MagillanicaLouM]

I know the movie inspired this debate again, but i feel they only made them father and son to parallel Mario's father-son character drama. But as for the actual canon is Grandparent-grandson. I think Wrinkly Kong especially reinforces this one. Plus DK Junior doesn't deserve getting shafted even harder

[@Eris1987]

Who knows exactly what happened him, though he does often get referenced.

[@MillerNj41]

Also also the grandson mention was in donkey Kong country 1 manual

[@Eris1987]

It's mentioned in a variety of media from Nintendo, it's what they intend.

[@hy2dro90]

I believe Cranky Kong was never in the original Donkey Kong games. Cranky is DK's cranky grandfather who uses his mysterious self-awareness to troll DK and Diddy. DK jr. is DK's son.

[@Eris1987]

Donkey Kong Country games I assume? Well he is in the actual games running the shops, he's also in the backstory and many games refer to him and outright tell us he's the OG DK, and he even references it. In the Donkey Kong Country's opening you have Cranky Kong on top of the Classic Steel Gutters from the original Donkey Kong Arcade game, with the arcade theme playing. Only to be interrupted by his Grandson with boombox playing the DKC theme. This is a meta way of showing the 2 different generations of Kongs, and basically telling the player Cranky is the original Donkey Kong. The DKC manual even states it in the story section In Donkey Kong Country 2 GBA's Prologue Cranky references his past of kidnapping maidens and throwing barrels, and how he'd do it quite a bit. This would be a reference to games like the original Donkey Kong Arcade game and Donkey Kong 94. There is a line fron DKC2 Diddy's Kong Quest that Cranky says further confirming this. _"Say hello to your old grandpappy Cranky. I'm back by popular demand to offer my wealth of gameplay wisdom for this unnecessary sequel."_ In SuperStar Baseball it tells us DK III is not the original Donkey Kong from the arcade game, and that is his ancestor aka Cranky. But the main reason his grandson can't be the original Donkey Kong is because he first met Pauline in Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!, and in said game Mario is also wearing his Modern Outfit and not his Classic Outfit. Said outfit in reference to Cranky is specifically stated to be disliked by him. Also, DK III was never Mario's pet. We also see an adult DK Jr in Super Mario Kart and Mario's Tennis.

[@legoboy7107]

Why did you go so aggressively against Bowser being a few years older than Mario? That idea makes perfect sense, I don't see the issue. You said "anyone who thinks that must have never played a Yoshi game" but...did you actually pay attention to Yoshi's Island? That game makes it clear Bowser is at least a couple years older than Mario and Luigi. Remember, throughout all of Yoshi's Island, Mario and Luigi aren't even BORN yet until the VERY end moment of the game after the credits. The whole premise there is that in the Mario world, babies are "born" by being delivered to their parents by a flying stork instead of...well, how it works in real life, which is a classic fairy/nursery tail, and in Yoshi's Island the stork just gets interrupted in the delivery, meaning that Mario and Luigi aren't born yet until the stork reaches their parents at the end. Meanwhile, Bowser is not only already clearly born, but he's been born for at least a few years now, as he can talk coherently albeit with some mispronunciations, clearly has a history verbally bickering with Kamek, is able to get up and fight and stuff, and overall is clearly not a newborn baby but a spoiled little kid. The only thing that makes less sense is saying he's actually 34 and thus exactly 10 years older than Mario, because that would mean he's 10 in Yoshi's Island and he definitely doesn't seem THAT old judging by his immature behavior unless he's ABSURDLY spoiled and poorly raised. Then again he does look almost identical age-wise to Bowser Jr. particularly in the modern Yoshi games, and Bowser Jr. acts more appropriately for a 10yo, so maybe Bowser could be 10 in the Yoshi games and just did not grow up well at all, so idk.

[@lonedivider]

Sorry if it came off that way. I was referring to the belief that Bowser was 34 after that Nintendo account video came out and how it doesn't make sense since it uses a real world year to get the number. My anger was overexaggerated for comedic sake, but I do see how that rant can come off as weird to someone who doesn't know about Mario's stated age.

[@KairanFarr]

What if the DK in the Mario games is Cranky Kong

[@astoldbyanakinskywalker2981]

You will perfect your flow and when you do you will be nigh unstoppable...

[@JohEl777]

I'm going with DK64 and the movie retcon where he is the son of Cranky, so Donkey Kong is Donkey Kong Jr. grown up. Feels more cleaner than the messy explanations if DK Jr is Donkey Kong's father, with 3 generations of Kongs while Mario don't age. Afterall Donkey Kong Jr. disappeared around the time reboot Donkey Kong showed up and replaced him in games like Mario Kart 64. Even if both reboot Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr show up in Mario Tennis, it just him a younger version of himself like Mario and Baby Mario appearing in the same Mario Tennis game alongside them.

[@Eris1987]

DK64 was a mistake, which is why we had that comment saying Cranky was senile. The Movieverse is a separate canon from the main canon of Mario Tales. Also, even if you try to remove Donkey Kong Junior you still have 2 other Kongs rapidly aging Cranky Kong and Tiny Kong. It's not just Donkey Kong Junior who we see fully grown by Super Mario Kart. Why is it like this? The Gameverse canon is basically a high fantasy world that doesn't abide by our rules. Outside of that almost all official media from Nintendo for the Games intends to let us know that Donkey Kong the Third is the grandson of Cranky Kong. We can't take something like the Movieverse canon and apply it to the games, they contradict each other. Remember a retcon is meant to fix an inconsistency not simply change things. The Koopalings retcon fixed an inconsistency.

[@JohEl777]

@@Eris1987 Donkey Kong Jr. was in Super Mario Kart for the SNES not Mario Kart 64, reboot Donkey Kong replaced him in Mario Kart 64. Movie retcon fixes your messy inconsistent timeline, and is the latest retcon which Nintendo's probably going to go forward with, so I'm going with that and DK64.

[@Eris1987]

@@JohEl777 yes he was in Super Mario Kart. There is no reboot Donkey Kong, there is however his son Donkey Kong the Third the grandson of Cranky Kong aka Donkey Kong Senior. The movie doesn't retcon anything, it's a completely separate Canon from the Mario Tales. Just like how Mario + Rabbids is a separate canon. The movie conflicts a lot with the games and doesn't mesh well. Mario and Luigi don't have their classic attire, there is 2 worlds instead of 1, Mario and Luigi are Italian Plumbers in New York instead of Native sons of the Mushroom Kingdom who moved to Big Ape City, Toad and Captain Toad seemed to have been merged together, Princess Peach is from another world instead of being brought to her parents via stork in the Mushroom Kingdom, Toadsworth's absence, the adult Penguins begin the size of Baby Penguins, the way Superstars or Starman are treated, not eating Fire Flowers, Blue Shell Koopa instead of a Blue Shiny Shell, the Main Yoshi's origins, the events of Mario Bros and Donkey Kong don't play out, the existence of the Kong Civilization, the advanced Karts made by the Kongs instead of the Primitive Karts from SMK, etc etc etc.

[@JohEl777]

@@Eris1987 You know what I mean by reboot Donkey Kong, Rareware Donkey Kong, 90s Donkey Kong, whatever you want to call him. I'm still going with the most recent movie retcon, for me Mario and Luigi always been Italian plumbers from New York City who got warped to the Mushroom Kingdom.

[@Eris1987]

@@JohEl777 It's still the same Donkey Kong, there wasn't a reboot. The movie isn't a retcon it's different canon like the SuperShow. They are Italian Plumbers from Brooklyn in the movie, SuperShow, and other movie. However, they are not and weren't intended to be from another world in the game Canon of Mario Tales. As far back as Donkey Kong Land and Donkey Kong for the Gameboy this was intended, even in the Yoshi games. Also, even a year afterwards in the OVA this concept was already a thing. There was never an intent for it to be from Brooklyn. The voice work yes.

[@jetin335]

There one thing I need to point out your complaint about the ages, as you clearly don't know this, but Gorillas age about 2 to 3 times fast then humans. Gorillas can start having kids at 7 and yes, most males may wait until 15. so Mario and Cranky (baby Dk/DK1) can be born at the same time, then in the game Donkey Kong. Mario can be about lets say 18ish. so at this point Cranky how a full grown adult gorilla that could have a young child Gorilla (DK jr). Heck it's actually possible (not likely though) for him to have a grandkid by this point. "What is the Current Donkey Kong like 5 or 6?" Probably closer to 10, but Yeah very likely. "would this make the life expectancy of a Kong about 30 years?" Yes, Gorillas live for 35-40 years. "I don't know who he shacked up with, but she maybe do for a case." About 7 years is normal, Because GORILLA, there not HUMANS. The Names, All three are just named Donkey Kong and Cranky is like a nickname, similar to calling a grandpa, pop pop. Kids and Grandkids can have the same name as the parents. why is this so wild of a concept that Cranky's name change from Donkey Kong? "The Mario time line can't sup....." At 35, Cranky could have had a Great Great Grandchild by that point, so yes the time line can easily support this, because that what can happen in real life. Did you even look up any thing about the animal the Kongs are based on? or did you just assumed they age like humans?

[@Eris1987]

Well Kongs generally age fast in Mario World without irl logic. We see it happen with DK Snr., DK Jr., Tiny Kong, and it's implied to be the case for DK III.

[@jetin335]

@@Eris1987 that is literally what I said in the first sentence.

[@KairanFarr]

Mario is 25 and he and Cranky are the same age, this is a problem

[@jetin335]

@@KairanFarr 25? Please, As of Mario odyssey, Nintendo was claiming him to be almost 40 (like around 35ish) and no longer a plumber. Then a few year later Mario 35th anniversary happened and they said he’s 35. A few years before before that, Shigeru said he’s always been 24. So Mario never aged, but DK1st, 2nd and 3rd all have. Yea, Nintendo/Shigeru can’t give an accurate age or are just claiming what relevant for the up coming game. Edit: Also, as the same age thing. That would be true for the Star children. Since that should have Cranky and Mario. However, this includes Bowser and Luigi. Nintendo has claimed the ape Star Chiled is the current DK (ie the 3rd), that Bowser in 34 and in the past Mario is a few years old then Luigi. The Star children are all the same exact age, that was the point of them. This make Mario and Luigi twins which contradicts what Nintendo has said before. Now that all irrelevant, since the original comment was about the video saying the Kongs dot make since, when they actually do.

[@mightyraccoon7155]

To be honest the DK Jr = DK iii makes the most sense. Your argument about the art style isn't substantial because Mario from his conception looked WAY different from his modern day counterpart, yet Jump Man is still Mario. Baby DK's adventures with Yoshi can easily pre-date the events of DK Jr (the game). Cranky refers to Donkey Kong as his Grandson. But this undeniable fact doesn't disprove DK iii from being DK Jr. In DKC 1 DK iii could just as easily view Cranky as his father figure, hence why he refers to Cranky as "Papa" in DK Jr. DK Jr. co-existing with Mario Tennis would be no different than Baby Mario co-existing with Mario. Mario Timeline is weird like that sometimes. DK iii taking DK Jr's slot from Super Mario Kart (SNES) further supports the idea that he just grew up. There's never been a set in stone statement since Shigeru Miyamoto hasn't had any hand in the series' lore since the Arcade games. & the folks who soft rebooted the franchise from Rare haven't been involved in the series since their buyout by Microsoft (save for Diddy Kong Racing DS).

[@dr.mixer8930]

Can jump man just be mario dad?

[@legoboy7107]

@@dr.mixer8930 No, that doesn't work with various things nor is it ever implied, whereas it just being Mario is implied. For example, Donkey Kong on the Gameboy features Mario (called Mario by name in-game, which was also the case in DK Jr. on the arcade) as well as Pauline (with her modern design she still has today in the artwork), but the DK in that game is clearly still Cranky because Jr. is also in that game. And the end of the game features the Mushroom Kingdom as well as uses of the Super Mushroom and other things that make it very clear this is just normal Mario, and normal Mario is fighting DK Sr. in this game. Not to mention other things like what Odyssey clearly implies with Jumpman being Mario himself, and you can keep looking. "Jumpman" (who IS himself named Mario in DK Jr. like I said) being Mario's dad would be very convenient to make sense of nonsensical ages but it's just never implied whatsoever and the opposite often is shown pretty clearly, not to mention even if we did buy that explanation, Pauline's mere existence throws a complete wrench into that and it still doesn't make any sense (because again, it's Pauline herself in DK on the Gameboy, and there's no reason to believe "Lady" in the original arcade game isn't her too since Pauline was clearly created with the intention of being the exact same character as "Lady," just adjusted to make more sense in a post-Princess Peach version of the franchise).

[@Eris1987]

_"To be honest the DK Jr = DK iii makes the most sense."_ Note really, it contradicts the game continuity. The thing is DK III can't be DK Jr because he first met Pauline in n Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! And in Mario vs. Donkey Kong Mario doesn't seem to know DK III yet. Meanwhile Mario and Pauline knew DK Jr, and he knew them. You also have DK III looking nothing like the adult DK Jr, let alone is smaller than the adult DK Jr.

[@Eris1987]

@@dr.mixer8930 No, Mario has been stated to have been through the events of Donkey Kong in the Encyclopedia, and his Odyssey Outfit mentions the OG DK hated it.

[@ArendAlphaEagle]

The Super Mario Bros. Movie is essentially an alternate canon (given that here the Kongs have always lived in the Jungle Kingdom, never visited New York (or New Donk City), and Cranky never met Mario before until this film), so while Movie!Cranky may be Movie!DK's dad, Game!Cranky may be Game!DK's granddad. Some people may apply the movie canon to the game's canon, but it's because of discrepancies like Cranky not having met Mario before the movie or always having lived in the same universe as the Toads and Koopas, why I disagree with that take. Since it's pretty much an alternate universe, Cranky can be DK's father and DK Jr. might as well have never existed. _THAT SAID_ though, I think it'd be interesting if DK Jr. _did_ exist in the movie canon... but actually as DK's own son, and NOT Cranky's. As in, maybe DK and his boo Candy Kong have a kid together later down the pipeline, this kid being DK Jr. And maybe this kind of retcon could be further applied in the games, with DK Jr. henceforth being current DK's son instead of old DK/Cranky's. Familial retcons aren't new to the Mario games: after all, the Koopalings used to be Bowser's kids, but now they're just high-ranking minions, with Bowser Jr. as Bowser's only son.

[@Eris1987]

I agree but I would say there is no Kongs living in a Jungle Kingdom, but they do live in the Kong Archipelago. There is also no Kong Civilization in the Gameverse. Just New Donk City, the Mushroom Planet has a different appearance from earth and lacks the notable locations of earth. The characters can hop through a portal to Tour Earth though. There is also the fact Mario never owned DK Snr in the Movieverse, and the events of Donkey Kong never played out. In addition to Pauline already being the Mayor. _"As in, maybe DK and his boo Candy Kong have a kid together later down the pipeline, this kid being DK Jr. And maybe this kind of retcon could be further applied in the games"_ Unlikely retcons have only ever been applied to actual contradictions, and not what people think is an contradiction, let alone they outright state it. Case in point the Koopalings. Plus as recent as SuperStar Baseball Cranky has been called the OG DK, and as recent as DCR he has been called the grandfather of DK III. There is also the main reason for DK III not being the original Donkey Kong, which is because he first met Pauline in Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!, and in said game Mario is also wearing his Modern Outfit and not his Classic Outfit. An outfit in reference to Cranky is stated to be disliked by the OG DK. Also, the difference for the Koopaling retcon is because with the introduction of BJ a contradiction was made. Meanwhile it was only the SMB3 manual that stated that. While Cranky being the OG DK has been stated in several games and manuals, in addition to him being the father of DK Jr.

[@maurobraunstein9497]

I don't understand why you haven't stated the obvious: Cranky Kong and Donkey Kong are the same character, but from separate timelines that split apart but then came back together. In the timeline where Donkey Kong Jr. fails to save his papa, evil Mario banishes Donkey Kong Sr. to an alternate dimension, where he stays for decades before finally finding his way back home, only to end up at the beginning of the timeline where Donkey Kong Jr. is successful and saves Donkey Kong Sr. while also showing Mario the error of his ways and leading him to become a hero to atone for his mistreatment of Donkey Kong Sr. He then attempts to guide his old self to proper stardom by endlessly repeating hints from the first world of DKC. Donkey Kong Jr., meanwhile, is still a kid -- Donkey Kong had his first marriage early, since apes mature faster than humans, but time doesn't pass in the Mario universe the way it does in real life -- which is why he only shows up occasionally. Mario and Donkey Kong are naturally around the same age, but the time-shifted version of Donkey Kong is naturally several decades older due to the dimensional banishment. Duh!

[@HyperTomoose]

I subscribed to you, enjoyed this video and your debunking video over Mona's parents are Luigi and Daisy video. My only critique is why curse? You cursing doesn't add anything to your debate, if anything it takes away from the flow and your well thought out points. Just my two cents. I hope you do more Mario theories.

[@lonedivider]

Thanks and I understand that. My cussing was meant to be comedic to play up the absurdity of certain fan beliefs. Looking back, I do see how off-putting and out of place it seems. This was one of my first scripts I wrote almost a year ago and it shows compared to my current writings. I hope you stick around and enjoy future content!

[@Nick-up5wv]

I like the in universe theory that DK Junior grew up to be Fedora Kong and than disappeared/got killed in a Kremling war and Baby Donkey Kong is a 3rd or the one we know. Outside theory? Koopa kid has been replaced with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings are no longer Bowser's children because Nintendo decided it that way. Remember Mario was once described as a Middle-aged man neither handsome nor heroic and Myamoto made him into the lovable 24 year old we know today. So there you go. If Mario is the same and Koopa kid got replaced and nixed so too did DK Jr. As far as his cameos go? They're non cannon, but if not than it involves time travel. Mario and Luigi: PIT and Yoshi's Island DS help explain why baby Mario Bros and DK Jr. race go karts on weekends.🏁 Oh, and Galaxy, also explains time travel stuff with Rosalina creating a brand new Galaxy and changing Mario and friends slightly. So, as you said, in THIS newer timeline DK Jr. doesn't exist and never did. Good video dude.👍

[@Eris1987]

I agree with DK Junior growing up just not into Fedora Kong, that's a non canon character. We see a full grown Donkey Kong Junior in Super Mario Kart. I have a headcanon Bowser gave DK Jr a gameover. Koopa Kid or Baby Bowser or Mini Bowser I think he's still canon, I have a few hypotheses why. You are right about Partner's in Time, that's when Time Travel is introduced. But you are incorrect about Super Mario Galaxy, it's a universe reset not time travel. But most importantly the Lumas reset the universe not Rosalina she says so herself in the scene. The Lumas aka Star Kids and the grown counterparts the Star Spirits are the ones with power within the Mario World.

[@Nick-up5wv]

@@Eris1987 Interesting. Thanks 😊

[@Eris1987]

Koopa Kid aka Minikuppa while they could be Baby Bowser, they are more than likely another species of Koopas. It also might be worth a check to see if the Japanese games ever have Minikuppa called Bowser father or not. The Koopalings were only stated to be his kids in the SMB3 manual, and not in other manuals or the games. So said retcon was easy, also some debate if the Japanese text actually was calling him his kids or implying they were the same species.

[@Nick-up5wv]

@@Eris1987 The Koopalings ate referred to as Bowser's children on 3 separate occasions. SMB3, Super Mario World, and SSBM. Even if you don't count they trophy information as cannon its in the game manules SMB3 and Super Mario World. Nintendo can decide to re-write their previous work, but they can't deny the official lore that happened twoce.

[@Eris1987]

@@Nick-up5wv So here's the thing. In the Japanese Manual of Super Mario Bros 3's manual they are called Kokuppa 7 Kyōdai, meaning 7 Little Bowser Siblings. Notice how that doesn't say Bowser's kids, let's move on. In the Japanese manual they are called Kokuppa 7 Ninshū meaning Team of 7 Little Bowsers. Again, not outright saying they are his kids. So here's the thing, kuppa is Bowser's Japanese name, but also more than likely the name of his whole species. Similar to how Goomba can be named Goomba, but it's also the name of their species. So with that being said the little of 7 little Bowser/Koopa Siblings begins to make sense. The Japanese said wasn't saying they were Bowser's 7 children, it was saying that's their species name. Heck if the English side didn't give them their names they would have probably all just been called Bowsers. So what's going on here? It's probably a localization problem based on misunderstanding the Japanese text and or adding to it. This is not uncommon especially back in the day. For example the localization added the Mushroom King in the English Manual, while the Japanese Manual never mentions one. A similar thing happened the English side in places like Nintendo Power calling Waluigi Wario's brother when that was never the case in Japan nor the intention. So if anything the the Team of 7 Little Bowsers were not intended to be his children, but the localization team added it in. As for Super Smash Bros, the depictions of characters can not be used for lore hunting when it come to not just Mario Lore but the lore of all games. This is because the characters in Smash Bros are toys in the real world as seen in Smash 64 and Melee, and outright stated by Sakurai. In addition Smash Bros gets lore wrong about Mario characters. Smash 4 states Peach users her dress to float. This is incorrect Peach uses her levitation powers to float and can levitate other objects like a trophy or a passed out Bowser. Brawl says Waluigi and Wario's relationship is unknown when it is known. The Pit dialogue says the relationship between Bowser Jr and the Koopalings is a mystery when it isn't.

[@shrek-itgamer6214]

I gotta be honest, i don't care that Cranky Kong is the original DK. And like you said, the age of the kong family fitting in the Mario timeline doesn't make any sense. So i rather much prefer the currrent DK as the true OG DK, i don't care what people saids, and i think people are taking the DK lore way too seriously. And the reason why i prefer the current DK as the OG DK, because Nintendo has been currently give out info or a fact about the DK we know today that he debuted from the same arcade game as Mario himself.

[@Eris1987]

I don't think so, and haven't seen that. Unless you are trying to impose a separate continuity onto the Gameverse that contradicts the Gameverse in so many ways. The last few times it has been brought I can remember was DKCR, and MSSB. The Mario lore is surprisingly consistent, and it wouldn't make sense for them to suddenly try to retcon such a well established fact within the Canon of Mario Tales. Plus a retcon is meant to fix an inconsistency not create one. If DK was the OG DK you'd have to decanonize several games that contradict it. From the Donkey Kong Country games to the Mario vs Donkey Kong games. _" the age of the kong family fitting in the Mario timeline doesn't make any sense."_ It does make sense. Kongs canonically rapidly age. We see this with DK Snr, DK Jr, Tiny Kong, and implied for DK III. This is just how Kongs work in the Mario World. It's the same reason turtles can wield magic, flowers and mushrooms have skeletons, trees can talk, paint can create life and ghosts, doors can talk back, Hexapod Dragons exist, and Mushrooms can make you huge. That's just how this world works.

[@orsonzedd]

Cranky Kong, DOnkey Kong, and the same Donkey Kong as the last one.

[@MillerNj41]

Matpat did a topic on this years ago n said in arcade of dk jr there’s multiple Mario’s pulling dk up also on a lunch box art you see Mario’s grandfather

[@Eris1987]

Multiple DKs yes, there are many sources of information to back that up. Mario's no, Nintendo straight up says there is only 1. In addition many games, media, and details say it's the same Mario. Such as the Yoshis Island Games, Partners in Time, Mario vs Donkey Kong, Mario's outfit change, the Encyclopedia referring to the early games as Mario's early adventures, etc. I wouldn't take what MatPat hypotheses about the Canon of the Mario Tales as fact. They are almost always wrong and ignore the lore of the games.

[@dr.mixer8930]

Shouldn't mario be older than the the kongs if he met them all before?

[@MillerNj41]

@@dr.mixer8930 no cause the Mario in donkey Kong games is super Mario’s dad

[@dr.mixer8930]

@@MillerNj41 but yeah it would

[@legoboy7107]

@@MillerNj41 That's not what Donkey Kong on the Gameboy implies, both with Pauline's existence with her modern design being in the artwork for that game, and the ending of that game blatantly showing the Mushroom Kingdom and that this is Super Mario and stuff like that (and yes, the DK in that game is Cranky even with those details around Mario and Pauline, because DK Jr's also in that game). There is no implication in the franchise whatsoever that the Mario (who yes, is named Mario explicitly in the DK Jr. arcade game) in the original DK games is Mario's dad, and multiple indications that it is in fact Mario himself in more than just the game I mentioned, other than ages simply not making sense, the dad explanation is pure conjecture. Matpat, especially with his older theories, is not definitive, he's just a guy trying to make up some headcanons to make sense of confusing things just like anyone else, the only difference is he had a popular KZbin channel.

[@orsonzedd]

He is DK Jr.

[@skanker1772]

Dk jr is the young uncle of Dk from Country

[@Eris1987]

What?

[@skanker1772]

@@Eris1987 like from the cartoon King of the hill the kid character (Bobby Hill) has an uncle whos a baby (G.H Hill) whos his dads (Hank Hill) half brother. Hanks dad (Cotton Hill) had his brother at an old age. Cotton is Bobbys Grandad. Kranky is the grandad, DK is the grandson, and Dk jr. is the young uncle ... we never see DKs dad so Kranky had a son before Dk jr. Who had DK

[@Eris1987]

@@skanker1772 yeah no, Nintendo lore establishes Donkey Kong Senior as the father of Donkey Kong Junior, and the grandfather of Donkey Kong The Third.

[@skanker1772]

@@Eris1987 Kranky= Dk senior(grand father) Dk jr is still Dk seniors son Dk senior had an older son before Jr. Thats the dad of dk the third which would still make Dk senior still his grand father and still have Jr. as a son ... theres plenty of examples of nephews being older than there uncles

[@skanker1772]

@@Eris1987 have you never seen King of the Hill??

[@MillerNj41]

There was a cartoon in the 80s which dk n dk jr are Mario’s pets n dk was in captain N also

[@Eris1987]

Separate canon

[@Oceane1803]

So your explication is just "DK Junior was retconned and doesn't exist anymore" ? That's boring. I have my own explaination that makes sense out of everything you couldn't explain. If the OG Donkey Kong is not the current Donkey Kong but his ancestor, what tells us that the OG Mario is the current Mario and not his ancestor ? What if "Jumpman" (I'll call him that to differenciate them) is Mario's father ? That would explain why he's a pretty evil guy unlike current Mario who would never do such a thing. They're not the same person. That would also make sense with Yoshi's Island DS. It's not Mario who is an adult in the original Donkey Kong, it's Jumpman. Meanwhile current Mario, his son, is still a child just like current DK is. That would also explain the difference in design of the cover art for the original Donkey Kong, where Mario looks nothing like the Mario we know now. It's Jumpman. With the Mario we know now being only playable starting with Mario Bros. And in Donkey Kong on Gameboy, it's also Jumpman. Yes they changed his design to look like current Mario in the Gameboy game since Nintendo never considered any of this, but their handling of the lore is bad. And since Donkey Kong on Gameboy takes place right after the events of OG Donkey Kong, it has to be Jumpman, not Mario. Technically that would be a retcon since Nintendo made it clear that the protagonist of both the original and Gameboy Donkey Kong games is the same Mario we have now, they're supposed to be one and the same. But it's a much more coherent retcon (it literally explains everything) than erasing DK Jr from existence entirely. And also Mario would have a canonical father now which is cool. And it would also explain Mario and DK's relationship in a pretty interesting way. It's Jumpman and Cranky who hate each other. At first, Mario and DK continued this cycle and were enemies just like Jumpman and Cranky, but eventually they managed to break free from it, started to hang out, and became more like friendly rivals instead.

[@Eris1987]

_"If the OG Donkey Kong is not the current Donkey Kong but his ancestor, what tells us that the OG Mario is the current Mario and not his ancestor ?"_ Mario is the original Mario from Donkey Kong. The Encyclopedia tells us that before Mario Bros Mario was known as Jumpman and was in games like DK, DK Jr, and DK Hockey. Odyssey also has the references to the events of the Arcade game, and reference Mario being Jumpman. Miyamoto has claimed it's Mario. You have Mario's Classic Outifit being described as the original outfit he wore, and even to be disliked by the OG DK. The same outfit he uses in Mario Bros and Super Mario Bros btw. _"That would explain why he's a pretty evil guy unlike current Mario who would never do such a thing. "_ Mario and DK SNR were not enemies, which is why Mario never tries to kill him. It is stated Mario had to outwit DK SNR the prankster, after DK SNR thought it would be funny to kidnap Mario's girlfriend to get a rise out of him. All while through barrels at a construction site which is implied to have other people present. _"Yes they changed his design to look like current Mario in the Gameboy game since Nintendo never considered any of this, but their handling of the lore is bad."_ It's probably because DK 94 takes place later on, when Mario was switched to his modern outfit and DK SNR had begun wearing a tie. Compare it Lost Levels, BSSMUSA, and SM64DS being repeat events. The lore handing isn't bad and is actually pretty well thought out.

[@Oceane1803]

@@Eris1987 It still doesn't explain the timeline inconsistencies, like Mario and DK being babies at the same time. And also DK GBC takes place right after the events of the original. We know that since the original three levels are literally included at the very beginning of the game. So it could still be Jumpman. And your interpretation also doesn't explain Mario capturing DK in Donkey Kong Junior. Yes, Miyamoto confirmed Mario and Jumpman to be one and the same, but they're not afraid of making retcons, so why not retcon that ? Make one that helps making sense out of everything instead of adding more inconsistencies for once ?

[@Eris1987]

@@Oceane1803 _"It still doesn't explain the timeline inconsistencies, like Mario and DK being babies at the same time."_ It's never explicitly stated which DK that is, all we know it's a DK. It could be any of the 3 or even an unmentioned one. There are several details like the modern outfit being present and other things that would have to place DK 94 later on. Yes the first 3 levels do appear, however this is more like an SM64DS situation. _"And your interpretation also doesn't explain Mario capturing DK in Donkey Kong Junior."_ I don't get why, after DK Snr kidnapped Pauline and put people in danger over a prank to get a rise out Mario, he was caged for his misdeeds. Implied to have taken place right after the first game. DK Jr his implied accomplice sets DK Snr free while Mario was trying to stop him. _"but they're not afraid of making retcons"_ True but those retcons fix inconsistencies and not create them, let alone one that would tear apart the Canon of Mario Tales. As for the Koopaling retcon if that's what you are referring to, that made sense because of the issues that arose from BJ. In addition it was only stated in manual and never in game. Unlike the Mario having been through the events of Donkey Kong which has been stated in manuals, the Encyclopedia, in games, etc. Also, there is debate if the Japanese even actually said they were his kids, or if it was misinterpretation with it saying they were the same species as Bowser. _"Make one that helps making sense out of everything instead of adding more inconsistencies for once ?"_ The Kong ages in not an inconsistency. Kongs in the Canon of Mario Tales just age rapidly, it's as simple as that. We see it happen with DK Snr, DK Jr, Tiny Kong, and implied for DK III. You see the problem is people are often trying to imposed real world logic onto a high fantasy world that doesn't abide by our rules. Just as gorillas age rapidly so too do plants talk, flowers and mushrooms have skeletons, hexapod dragons walk around, turtles wield magic, non avian dinosaurs still exist, and door talk back. This is just how the Mario world functions. Heck gorillas in the Mario world are sapient and have their own language. It doesn't make sense whatsoever to impose real world gorilla aging onto this high fantasy world.

[@Oceane1803]

@@Eris1987 Fantasy doesn't mean logic is optional. Good fantasy worlds have logic.

[@Eris1987]

@@Oceane1803 High Fantasy World not just a fantasy world. And it has logic, it just has it's own logic. Mushrooms and Flowers in the real world don't have skeletons, and such as thing wouldn't be logical in our world. But in the Mario World it is logic. Non avian dinosaurs aren't still walking around and can have a conversation with humans in the real world, to claim that wouldn't be logical. But in the Mario World it is possible and logic. Hexapod dragons simply cannot exist in our world and it's illogical to claim they could. But in the Mario World how their world's logic works. It isn't logical to claim there are gorillas that are sapient, have their own language akin to say English, and age rapidly on our world. But in the Mario World it does make sense. Again the logic is consistent in this high fantasy world, multiple Kongs have been shown to rapidly age over a short period of time as I showed. Keep in mind we are talking about a world where islands can be turned into storybooks, a plumber can escape a blackhole in a minigame, someone can be flattened by a stone ghost and be okay, and a plumber can change form into pixel or paper.

[@duckthe21]

Nice

[@nicholassims9837]

To me the current DK is a grown up Jr and Cranky is his father

[@Eris1987]

The problem with that is DK III has been stated multiple times to be the grandson of Cranky the OG DK. InDonkey Kong Country's opening you have Cranky Kong on top of the Classic Steel Gutters from the original Donkey Kong Arcade game, with the arcade theme playing. Only to be interrupted by his Grandson with boombox playing the DKC theme. This is a meta way of showing the 2 different generations of Kongs, and basically telling the player Cranky is the original Donkey Kong. The DKC Manual has the story of the game in it. In this straight up says that Cranky Kong is the original Donkey, and the current Donkey Kong is his grandson. In Donkey Kong Country 2 GBA's Prologue Cranky references his past of kidnapping maidens and throwing barrels, and how he'd do it quite a bit. This would be a reference to games like the original Donkey Kong Arcade game and Donkey Kong 94. There is a line fron DKC2 Diddy's Kong Quest that Cranky says further confirming this. _"Say hello to your old grandpappy Cranky. I'm back by popular demand to offer my wealth of gameplay wisdom for this unnecessary sequel."_ In the manual for Donkey Kong Country Returns Cranky is again called Donkey Kong the Third's grandfather. In addition when leaving is Cranky Kong's Shop you can get this line of dialogue from Cranky, _"glad I could help my grandson overcome this deadly challenge in exchange for a little cash money."_ Alongside several more lines of dialogue you can get confirming he is Donkey Kong the Third's grandfather. _"Well, you've amazed your old grandpa by getting this far."_ _"You made it all the way to the Volcano! You may have some of your grandpappy in you after all."_ In SuperStar Baseball it states the OG DK is DK III's ancestor, referring to Cranky. There is also the fact DK III looks nothing like the adult DK Jr. You also have DK III first meeting Pauline in Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem!, and seeming to have first met Mario in Mario Vs Donkey Kong. Meanwhile DK Jr knew Mario and Pauline.

[@nicholassims9837]

@@Eris1987 in DK 64 did make them Father and Son . Same with Smash Theirs also the fact that the wayabouts of adult jr is never found out making it easier to say current DK is jr all grown up. Plus what's that on how current DK doesn't look like an adult jr seeing how we never see jr all grown up you cant say for sure.

[@Eris1987]

@@nicholassims9837 _"in DK 64 did make them Father and Son ."_ The DK64 thing was a mistake, and was later cleared up by Gregg Mayles in 2017. Gregg Mayles establishes that this was a mistake, and Donkey Kong III was always meant to be Cranky's grandson. In addition he makes a remark about Cranky possibly being senile and not remembering. In addition did give quotes from Donkey Kong Country Returns which comes after DK64. Such mistakes are not uncommon. Waluigi was incorrectly on the English side called Wario's brother when they aren't meant to be related or friends. The English Manual of SMB mentions a Mushroom King which is absent from the Japanese Manual. There is a line of text about a Bubble Clone of Dry Bowser that was mistranslated and called him a close family friend of Bowser. _" Same with Smash"_ The characters in Super Smash Bros are toys and can not be used for finding lore about the Mario World. It is shown in Smash 64 and Melee, and Sakurai outright stated it himself. Not to mentioned the Smash Bros games often gets the Mario lore wrong, and or misunderstands it. Smash 4 states Peach users her dress to float. This is incorrect Peach uses her levitation powers to float and can levitate other objects like a trophy or a passed out Bowser. Brawl says Waluigi and Wario's relationship is unknown when it is known. The Pit dialogue says there relationship between Bowser Jr and the Koopalings is a mystery when it isn't. Etc. etc. _"Plus what's that on how current DK doesn't look like an adult jr seeing how we never see jr all grown up you cant say for sure."_ We have seen him, in Super Mario Kart and Mario's Tennis. He also might have showed up in NES Open Tournament Golf. In games like Super Mario Kart DK Jr is fully grown and is almost as big as Bowser, meanwhile his son is nowhere that big.

[@nicholassims9837]

@@Eris1987 Same with Wario who was super big then strunk down to normal size. Saying that Cranky is senile is forced as no other media depicts him as such . We never see what happens to DK jr so as far as anyone's concern he is DK as the reason he looks different in Mario tennis is just the model as Cranky Kong doesnt look the same as the arcade one either plus where is jr now ? Was he ever referenced in the DK Country series like in the tv show he was a great ape and the DK now has a huge tie to wear ? In Mario Kart nearly all the characters are the same size Mario, Koopa , Peach , Luigi so DK jr and Bowser being the same size means nothing. Also Smash ment Wario and Waluigi relationship is unknown if there brothers or not. Same with Bowser jr and the Koopaings

[@Eris1987]

@@nicholassims9837 now that's just reaching for some way for an incorrect hypothesis to be correct, when faced with contradicting evidence. We also don't know where Stanley, Tatanga, King Wart, and many other characters are. Also again everything I have wrote also points to Cranky being DK III's grandfather.

[@MillerNj41]

Ok so you complicated so here the Mario in original games is current Mario’s grandfather n 2d games saving toadstool is his son by 64 it’s current Mario just like there’s different links in most games

[@Eris1987]

There's several problems with this. It's always implied to be the same Mario if not outright stated. It's stated Mario in the Encyclopedia has been through the events of DK, DK Jr, and DK Hockey and was originally called Jumpman. Odyssey references him being Jumpman and having been through the events of DK. His Classic outfit is stated on the Nintendo website and in Odyssey to be the one he originally wore, and disliked by the OG DK. Miyamoto refers to Mario being a plumber who has a girlfriend and owns a pet gorilla. The next part is Mario has been shown to have gone through many past events. In Sunshine note only do we get visuals of SMB, SMW, and SM64. But we even get a list of Mario's things Mario has been through. Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros 2, Super Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, Super Mario 64, and Mario Kart 64. The Blocks of Nostalgia have blocks from Mario's past Adventures like SMB, SMW, and SM64 blocks. Birdo and a Toad reference the events of SMB2USA. In Odyssey Bowser's Memories include SMB, SMB3, SMW, and SM64 having dealt with the same plumber all this time.

[@MillerNj41]

@@Eris1987 go watch Mario timeline videos the one in smb1 is jumpmans son