The UK Energy Company Creating the Utility of the Future | Ep175: Greg Jackson

[@CleaningUpPod]

Welcome to the first episode of Season 13 of Cleaning Up, and thank you to Greg Jackson, founder and CEO of Octopus Energy for joining us. Let us know your thoughts and questions in the comments below!

[@GreenStripShow]

100%

[@neilmarshall2315]

As a retired software engineer, I would have been very happy to work for Octopus, having a CEO that actually understands how software should be managed and used.

[@randomjasmicisrandom]

Octopus have transformed my relationship with the energy I use. I moved to them last April after I had solar panels and a battery installed as they had a better SEG rate. Their smart tariffs are revolutionary, i moved to the Flux tariff, and then moved onto Agile. I am saving a huge amount of money, almost never paying the standard tariff rate. There was a day in August when I used 55 kWh, mostly charging my car but also doing all of our cooking and washing, and was paid £0.70!

[@davideyres955]

The reason you get good price is that you have had sufficient money to invest in the storage options and other people don’t. The profit that don’t do not have sufficient money to do so which effectively means the poorer electricity customers are subsidising you. You also add waste into the system because the round trip efficiency of your battery is less than 100% If everyone has batteries then your savings will disappear. Sure we may be able to utilise some intermittency but without sufficient generation to 100% cover all possibilities then you are either going to need some form of backup.

[@randomjasmicisrandom]

@@davideyres955 I did have sufficient money, that is true, but I was also becoming disabled due to illness around the same time as my system was being installed. I’m now in a situation where having the panels and battery is making losing my job far less painful, and it has shown me that we need this tech made available through a low or no interest loan scheme. This is being campaigned for by Ripple Energy.

[@randomjasmicisrandom]

@@davideyres955 as for adding waste, this is nonsense as I only fill my battery with sun juice for the vast majority of the year, and only use grid energy imports to fill it up when it is cheap overnight and would otherwise be wasted. The loss due to DC to AC conversion is minuscule, just a few percent of what I import.

[@randomjasmicisrandom]

@@davideyres955 as for the ‘if everyone has a battery’ and how this would cause savings to disappear, if that happened then there would be no expensive peak periods in the morning and evening as everyone would be using battery storage instead of putting pressure on the grid. This would make everybody’s electricity cheaper, not just mine.

[@mackay250]

@@davideyres955 I did not have the money so I got a loan, the savings I made with octopus pays the loan I got for my solar and batteries etc. Essentially I got them for free. So you are incorrect. You could do it too, you just hav'nt.

[@grahamharrison1323]

Put this man in charge of the entire electric grid and all its policy and associated businesses

[@rhysrail]

No need, you can choose to use them if you want or the normal ones if you want

[@prometheus4130]

with recent mergers that might well happen!

[@drewhodge3820]

@@grahamharrison1323 Yes he's great at making money but not very good at saving customers money.

[@dave24-73]

Please don’t most of the information is incorrect especially around electric vehicles.

[@jeffgrimston4565]

@@dave24-73please expand. All seems reasonable to me.

[@paulusthewoodgnome]

My only problem with this conversation is that it isn't an hour longer. Fantastic.

[@wobby1516]

We are on the intelligent octopus Go Tariff and I use it to charge my 27 kwh battery as well as my Kia E Niro. We also have a 3.6 kwh solar array and just recently Octopus installed our heatpump which is brilliant. We almost never buy energy at the higher rate as what we charge our batteries at night on cheap rate is sufficient for all our needs. We’re lucky enough to be able to afford this technology but I really believe it’s time the government legislated that all new build have both solar and a minimum of a 10kwh battery. I think that octopus just like Tesla has really shaken up the lethargic energy market and I wouldn’t go to any other energy company enemies if it saved me a few pounds as they are so customer oriented.

[@CliveMills-fi1ch]

I want a batt. And solar too would be great but I live on universal credit and live in a council flat

[@markgemmell3769]

Octopus are indeed the Vodafone of the energy sector. They will become a global player. Perhaps the largest one! Fantastic interview. Thanks for this 👍

[@jcfallows]

I'm an Octopus customer and like their business model. Greg should be advising Milliband. The future looks bright with guys like Greg in charge of energy companies!

[@reneprinz3]

Thank you very much Michael Liebreich and Greg Jackson for your great brainstorms! Im looking forward to your next episode!

[@marts8465]

Having invested in solar and battery and moving over to octopus around 2 years ago - I don't have a single bad thing to say about them, support is responsive , I have handed control of my battery over to octopus and it works flawlessly (early adopter - so it has improved over time as one would expect) I really like what they are doing and i am able to leverage their tarris to further support my renewable investment for a faster ROI

[@JurassicJungle]

I worked with many of the big energy suppliers over the last 20 years and could see their legacy platforms simply could not cope with doing what we need to do to make the grid smart. I remember even 30 min billing to be a massive challenge. We must make moves to manage cpacity locally with micro grid solutions. I have EV, solar and battery and love what Octopus does for me but there is room for more. I would really like to have V2G. I am from an IT background not IT but it was obvious to me that what we needed to do was smooth demand and be able to store more energy in the UK. World wide our challenge is bigger, as the developing world expands their energy needs for cooling will be way more than we need for heating in the UK.

[@LoraineWaites]

Brilliant podcast. Very insightful and lots of innovation discussed that gives hope for our future.

[@jasonpalmer3154]

Amazing interview. I hope Greg can get the ear of government and help make the changes we need. My first watch of Cleaning up, one of many I think to come

[@MLiebreich]

Welcome!

[@jaybee6262]

And sort out the need for MCS requirements...😏, hope other energy supplier's follow the octopus lead on its requirement to sell back your excess energy etc

[@BlackCountryLad]

What an incredible CEO Greg Jackson is.❤ Octopus are looking after its customers incredibly well and the listen too. Please o Please listen to this - Just wish Octopus would approve the GivEnergy EV charger, the techie’s have been sitting on their hands for over twelve months! Come on Greg give am a boot up the Ar⭐️⭐️

[@wookoodoo]

excellent as always and good to see that the number of views (and comments, albeit some really terrible takes) are increasing. This is the number one podcast to listen to if you want to really understand future energy systems and everything associated with it. Loved Greg's story about the electric blankets and I was also thinking the same as Michael when Greg mentioned the 150m that management decided to give to customers without real prior consent of the Board, though I do assume they were kept abreast of things, at least the big shareholders that have veto rights on budget / business plan kind of decisions.

[@Warekiwi]

As a keen customer of IOG I appreciated the explanation of how it works with my compatible EV.! Now I'm awaiting a similar integration with my GivE home battery!

[@adamwalker1504]

Congratulations on the new sponsor! I for one am taking advantage of Octopus tariffs for demand response with my battery, EV and heat pump, when is Tesla Powerwall integration coming and stronger price signals to reduce payback time on the battery.

[@MarkShapiro-m8r]

Sounds like we need a show on locational pricing for Great Britain! How many nodes would it be? How would it be rolled out? What are the roadblocks and stumbling blocks? How would you sell it to the government? To the other utilities? To the regulators? Whom could you call on to help promote it? I bet some satisfied Octopus customers could help!

[@nickhstd2]

Send this output to Ed Miliband, maybe he'll have a light-bulb moment!

[@colinsuter6888]

Doubt if Milliband knows what. Light bulb is…

[@dandantheideasman]

This is a great idea 💡

[@SirHackaL0t.]

Blimey, all those extra customers! That’s a lot of Greggs Coffee given away!

[@davidedwards4691]

Great interview I have been saying for years that it seems madness to be wanting to spend many millions on a energy system where the pricing mechanism to the customer is so distorted. This is the one thing that we can do to get the energy closer to where it should be

[@RichardHoldway]

That was just great nice to see someone who knows his stuff

[@ralfkahler4054]

Really great talk. Learned so much and there is a astonishing number of similarities with the German grid. Thank you very much. 👏

[@brianholding4357]

It's time we got rid of standing charges, and move that cost onto the amount of power we use, the currant system penalises the least well off, as granny tries to reduce her bills by limiting use, she cannot reduce the standing charge, This is wrong!

[@ashleigh3021]

Literally impossible to get rid of standing charges. Standing charges just mean network charges which means funding transmission lines. I could see a world where you rent capacity from your battery, heat pump that covers the cost of standing charges but never where they don’t exist.

[@dac545j]

I very much enjoyed the programme. Constructive comment: it would be easier to parse if you read the sponsor names in the order of spin on the graphic. (I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago).

[@peterbee8892]

Good interview.

[@malcolmbennett4325]

I think Octopus Energy have open the door to a new way to treat customers and embrace the benefits of technology, the three magic buttons, use technology to improve efficiency, strive for the best customer service., and make a sustainable profit for the company. However the elephant in the room is standing charge at above 60 pence per day, on electricity which has nothing to do with global energy prices but only uk’s internal inflation rates.

[@ianlighting100]

What is most curious to me is the quantity of comments from anti-renewables trolls on this episode. I guess this must be YT’s algorthym recommending Octopus to people who like to be really annoyed about energy. Great episode BTW. I hadn’t heard about the free electric blankets. Cynicism is easy, but I believe his actions are genuine. Michael - I wonder, was the 96% hypothetical of a decarbonised grid based on a particular possible pathway we’re on, or just a discussion number? I agree, that achieving anything like that would be amazing, and by the time we get there, other possibilities will likely present themselves for the last few %. Would love to see Drax disappear aswell though which is included in the low carbon generation as far as I understand it.

[@MrAdopado]

Drax is not included in any zero carbon calculations (and neither should it be of course).

[@jasonallatt5410]

What a legend! 👍👋😎

[@charlesmarsh9608]

Thanks for that fellas.

[@katherandefy]

The incumbents far prefer the highest prices they can get the most profits. They have become used to that expectation. Venture companies cannot sustainably survive by that expectation. By using heavy PR and policy stemming from incumbent goals, expectations are meant to remain solid. That behavior has worked for many decades-half a century. So now here come new companies like Octopus operating within this old game plan. And their ya go.. AI on the back foot is a powerful advantage. 👏👏👏

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Great podcast. Greg is always good value especially when interviewed by Michael

[@michaelkappler8974]

Greg Jackson, please break into the Australian market 3plus million solar PV systems are waiting for you. Your company could crack the vested intetests that exist here. Its as if all the solar homes dont exist. Power companies here set the own rates to suit themselves.Your company would thrive in Australia.

[@CliveMills-fi1ch]

I've just switched my supply from utilita to octopus this min while watching this! Although I planned too anyway The thing is I'm in a council flat on universal credit and I use very little electric around £500 a year I want storage battery and if I could solar I have no real income but I'm sure I'd save or make money if I could have a battery I will save money just switching my supplier but not much

[@garysmith5025]

All very interesting from Greg Jackson, but his locational pricing will only benefit everyone in Scotland and NE England where most renewable energy is generated if the smart meter Wide Area Network is made fit for purpose. This is even more applicable the closer you get to the windfarms, I can see 158 wind turbines from my property on a clear day but can't get an EV tariff because no WAN available; and Octopus' legendary customer service goes out of the window when it comes to this subject, no answer after a week.

[@MrAdopado]

Good point. Smart meter access remains a big issue for many.

[@JohnR31415]

Fantastic interview… I do hope he’s on Ed Milliband’s speed dial.

[@guyhargreaves6591]

Enjoyed the interview - where did that 3.5 years go since I listened to GJ’s last interview! Not sure how OE is “fully hedged” though, when at the same time it also takes ~“lots of risk”? Perhaps more accurately it fully understands its risks so eg when it offers an unhedged price cap it can quantify worst case losses and size them to minimise bankruptcy risk. The former derivatives trader in me bristles at the inaccurate use of “hedged”, a word seen regularly at the scene of financial irregularities and worse!

[@edwardbyard6540]

Nice to see Greg on the podcast again. Octopus is a great company, but cracks are showing given the huge uptick in customers. Their legendary customer services team seem to be more based in India, answering emails at 3am and just giving scripted replies. If you've got a difficult issue, they can't help you. Hopefully they can get this under control because nothing wrecks a business like poor CS. Love Octopus - Greg, please don't do an Elon and go bonkers. We need you to push the transition to renewable energy until it is a reality.

[@Rexbilly9819]

I moved to Octopus energy from Utility Warehouse. Octopus is so much better and greener. UW don't care about the environment or where they source their dirty energy from. Likewise I moved my solar feed in tariff from Ovo to Ecotricity. Ovo must be loosing customers in their droves, as their customer service and account management is awful.

[@jeremytaylor3312]

Come on Octopus; start adopting the heating circuit system from Scottish Power then YOU can decide when to heat our water, switch on the storage heaters and charge our batteries at the cheapest period in a 24 hour window from OCTOPUS Watch. Then lobby government for zero VAT on Electricity and 7% VAT on Gas. Octopus refuse to take me as customer as they cannot handle the triple tariff system from Scottish Power and yet it is an obvious and easy way to even out some of the peaks and troughs in renewable generation.

[@andrewdeans2179]

As a customer maybe try and get you mini working on all Wi Fi system. Your app shows my usage 2 days late but bright app which gets data DCC as we’ll normally daily usage. I appreciate all companies efforts to get my smart meter working. Cheers Andrew Scotland

[@paddylogan13]

This all sounds amazing. But all I want is a smart meter and it's now 18 months since I ordered one. The experience has been absolutely horrendous.

[@stuartphippen46]

Yes, having dealt with Octopus regarding EV charging and solar panels installation it felt as though the company was struggling to keep up with the demand/growth. They still gave me the best advice and ev charger was installed well but ended up going with solar fast for solar installation as Octopus was taking too long with appointments having to be cancelled and rescheduled. Aside from this they’ve been great.

[@kennethbarr6842]

We Are Looking At Reducing your water Usage By 50 % electric By 20% heating and hot water by 30% then if Your Home is Insulation Is Good And Your home is Ventilation Is Passive , We Will Remove The Gas From your home?

[@ziggerwebdesign1704]

Love Greg and Octopus but driving electric is only 7 times cheaper powering an EV if you can charge from home - which affects 30% of the UK population. Current Tesco prices are up to 10 more expensive than Octopus's 7p.

[@robinbennett5994]

That's a problem for your local council to solve by installing kerb-side chargers and encouraging landlords and employers to install chargers where they can. That's not something an electricity company like Octopus can do. OTOH, EVs are about 15% of sales and 5% of the total car fleet. We've a lot way to go before we need to worry about the last 30%. A lot can change before we get there.

[@hyweltthomas]

@@robinbennett5994 He was not blaming Octopus, just Greg's comments. It doesn't matter when we will eventually 'get there', EVs are simply not an option for 30% of UK drivers. (And fancy retro-fitting chargers to all the flats in the country?)

[@robinbennett5994]

@@hyweltthomas I don't understand why you think installing a charger is so difficult. It's an easier job that rolling out cable TV or fibre broadband to the entire country. Even if it costs £1000 per connection, that's less than you'd save in a year of driving an EV. Around here, the council has already started installing road-side chargers for people who park on the road. There aren't many yet, but they've got 20 years to finish the job.

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

BEVs have been 17.2% of new sales in the year to date. 22.6% in August. If there was a smart shared charger, flats could assign the charging to a flat owner and bill them appropriately.

[@hyweltthomas]

​@@robinbennett5994 Even if my Housing Association decides to install chargers, (which is highly unlikely given their skinflint attitude to most jobs) where would they be located? (We don't have spare parking space here.) What type would they be? (There's are many different types.) Which provider do we go for? The one I use or someone else. How would we be charged for the service? )Card, fob.) How much would it cost? Would the HA get a cut of the charge? There's only 3 cars in this flat, you imagine doing this for 20? If you reckon it will '20 years to finish the job', then that's 20 years most of us will carry of buying ICEs.

[@foxylady1048]

The price of electricity will only go down when the gas company is forced out of business by being unable to sell there gas due to no demand from customers who have gone green. A company Coe of gas was asked, if sunlight and wind is free energy, why do you keep rising prices every year. His answer was as follows. Well, the less gas we sell to you, our investors won’t get there bonuses, and I won’t get my nice fat pay check of thousands a month. Enough said. By the way Gas is set to rise in Autumn and then again this winter. Go Figure.

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

Hold on- why didn't you ask him about Octopus Hydrogen, Michael? Because I'm VERY curious about it, given this otherwise excellent interview!

[@Biggest-dh1vr]

They debunked hydrogen from around 47:15 onwards?

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

And yes, that's right. So why on earth would Octopus Hydrogen exist, as it so obviously still does?

[@MLiebreich]

Good question. I'll ask him.

[@jonevansauthor]

@@MLiebreich I'm guessing the debunking is going to be using it for cars. It's still going to be used for steel and for making ammonia for fertiliser so there's a market for hydrogen, even if it sadly turns out that using it for small vehicles is a silly idea. There might also be applications for large vehicles such as ships and obviously, big rockets but I'm not sure of that.

[@clivethomas6864]

Can we use gas pipelines as a conduit for power lines to avoid the need for many more pylons. We have an existing network in existence that connects all cities, why not repurpose those for high power cables and phase out the gas.

[@MLiebreich]

Apart from the tech challenges (thermal management, capacitance) you have the very practical problem that you can't shut off the gas until you have built the cables, but you can't build the cables until you've shut off the gas.

[@user-nx6ji9tk8i]

You have to connect from source of electricity generation. No gas pipe lines where those wind farms are…. And where are the new Cu mines being developed? Won,t be mining it in UK. Lots more thinking needed. We,ll be needing LNG as buffer for a good while yet. To say nothing of biomass….

[@christianfaversham3766]

Did I miss the suggestion that Small Modular Reactors [SMRs] could be build to support our 2030 net zero commitment ?

[@MLiebreich]

No. Because the world will be lucky to see one or two SMRs by 2030, and certainly not enough to make a blind bit of difference to the UK's 2030 commitment.

[@andymacleod2365]

well done for corecting him

[@tempcadoganenright]

WHERE IS THE LINK TO THE VIDEO DEBUNKING HYROGEN??

[@CleaningUpPod]

Here's the main one mentioned in the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWG0apare52tgck. And we have a hydrogen specific playlist on our channel if you'd like to see more.

[@davesound7188]

And give him a Knighthood while we’re at it

[@KiteTurbine]

Brilliant Best bit Haha you said if we could ripple out the business... Yep Ripple another great clean energy business model dev company

[@MLiebreich]

You spotted that!

[@KiteTurbine]

@@MLiebreich Greg handled it brilliantly

[@MrAdopado]

Yes ... being a Ripple customer my ears pricked up!

[@KiteTurbine]

The issues raised are super poignant here on Shetland. The giant Viking wind farm was just commissioned and is massively constrained. Yet we have the highest rates of fuel poverty and extreme fuel poverty in the UK. And to top it all Greg, we can't even buy a Gregg's sausage roll for energy here

[@richardharries5551]

I'd love an electric blanket but even though I'm a disabled pensioners with severe lung problems and have been with Octopus 🐙 for quite some time, sadly despite qualifying for a free electric blanket I still have to huddle under blankets at temperature of less than 9 degrees as my circumstances don't fit inside their answer boxes. I've privately bought half a dozen electric blanket s which never last before breaking down. Great idea Greg but the system is not working for me.

[@MrAdopado]

I'm not sure what's happening with regard to the longevity of your electric blankets ... mine seem to have lasted forever!

[@Rexbilly9819]

Try and insulate your home. Loan a thermal imaging camera from Octopus energy and see where your home is wasting and leaking energy. Hope this helps you stay warm this Winter.

[@cbromley562]

How does wide deployment of tidal generation around the Country, combined with broad rollout of home & business rooftop solar (resulting in less demand on the Grid), affect a 100% viability of wind/solar/hydro/tidal/long and short rapid response storage?

[@MLiebreich]

Tidal power is very expensive, which is why, other than a few pilot plants, after 150 years of trying it's been a complete flop. We may see some niche uses, but don't hold your breath.

[@cbromley562]

@@MLiebreich "...But many of those early challenges have been overcome, Andrew Scott, CEO of Edinburgh-based Orbital Marine Power Ltd said. Scott said he foresees Orbital Marine generating about 17.5 million from electricity sales per year, over the turbine array’s projected 20-year life. “We’re effectively at that critical stage where we start to grow commercial revenues and profits.” Watch this space I guess...80% efficient, and consistant.

[@backacheache]

​@@cbromley562It'd be great if they could crack it however the sea 'is a cruel mistress' and many attempts have failed so far due to its extreme power and corrosiveness

[@cbromley562]

@@backacheache Many attempts at flight failed. They’re designed for ease of maintenance…easier than oil rigs. We’ll see how they develop.

[@malcolmrickarby2313]

Solar and wind are forces of nature driven by The Sun ☀️. Tidal and pumped hydro are much more reliable over a twenty four hour period as they are driven by gravitational forces 🌓 🌏 ☀️. Predictable baseline power reduces the need for BESS or nuclear power.

[@andymacleod2365]

There is not a unified price in the UK, Scotland pays more for its energy despite being where the power is generated

[@bm8641]

I hope Octopus will bury the frauds that are SSE, EoN, Engie

[@PeterCc5u]

Please come to Denmark, we need a disruption

[@jonevansauthor]

FYI autocues are not particularly expensive, and might make your life somewhat easier if you're regularly reading off sheets of paper.

[@MLiebreich]

Thanks, were researching autocues right now! We didn't use to do intro texts, but now we do, I clearly need one!

[@nickhstd2]

Greg and Elon Musk should partner up and sort out the UK energy market for the benefit of the UK economy. Both have great ideas and are innovation giants IMHO.

[@ianlighting100]

Musk is unfortunately displaying increasingly erratic behaviour, so his ‘genius’ period may be over. Incidentally, there used to be a Tesla (home battery) tariff on Octopus, but Tesla withdrew it, so Octopus offered their own similar tariff.

[@synthmaker]

@@ianlighting100 Everything you hear from Elon comes through an increasingly erratic social media lens. Like for example in recent days an article with a title saying that Elon Musk is going to spend 1 billion trying to destroy the International Space Station. If you bother to read through many of the initial paragraphs of the article, you eventually see towards the end that Nasa will pay SpaceX to decommission the ISS which is not an easy task. The title is what staying in the readers mind, reaching the truth is protected by the initial paragraphs making the reader give up on reading the rest.

[@TheMagicJIZZ]

Did you call him that when he a Obama supporter?​@@ianlighting100

[@Paul-dorsetuk]

Recommend the fleet street letter episode on dirty power. Disaster waiting to happen

[@nigelcharles511]

As an individual I use a lot of solar, powering two EVs from an off-grid location and my house on grid for 11 months/year. I do however have to use oil for central heating. Whilst oil is less than 70p/litre (7p/kwh) I fail to see how it can be worth my while changing to a heat pump. It may be 300-400% efficient but a heat pump cannot only run during the cheap rate time period.

[@drewhodge3820]

So far cheap clean energy has just been a lie. Energy companies have made vast profit margins at a massive cost to the consumer.

[@Rexbilly9819]

You don't understand how the energy sector works. Renewables are tied in with expensive fossil fuels and nuclear power.

[@drewhodge3820]

@@Rexbilly9819 Fossil fuels aren't responsible for pushing up the price of gas and electricity up 4x in the past few years. It's the green subsides and demands from the green energy sector that force up prices. That's a fact. Not the fiction of so called Cheap Green energy. Otherwise that fictional cheap green energy would be forcing prices down, if it was actually cheaper to produce.

[@tangerinestorm]

It's always nice to see middle class people that live in big houses with driveways tell us how cheap it is to run an electric car. When it is cheap to charge a car without a driveway or even at businesses then and only then is it going to be viable. BTW i do drive an electric car, but we can't ignore the majority of people in this country.

[@MLiebreich]

51% of cars sold in China last month were BEV or PHEVs. They are selling cars there for $15,000 that are being sold for $30,000. Don't blame the technology, blame your political leaders and legacy car company executives.

[@merlindxb4333]

We are ENG8 International

[@davefroman4700]

99% of all the incumbent industries in history? Have failed to survive technology disruptions. They always think the future looks like the past. And that change will be slow and gradual over the space of decades. That is NOT how technology disruptions work. And disruption always comes from the outside. People that see the new opportunity space enabled by technology, and who are unhindered by legacy interests, that move technological innovation forwards. Always bet on the disruptor, not the incumbent. Declining economies of scale have crushed them all as they have been disrupted.

[@mateobravo9212]

I guess we have to live with the incumbents, but surely they will go the way of Kodak and Nokia phones...only technology can save us where decades of Whitehall poor decisions or indecision , along with firms that burn stuff have failed us all.

[@user-nx6ji9tk8i]

Will the new proposed GB energy go the same way as Bulb in the future? Not heard Ed enthuse about hedging….

[@drewhodge3820]

Where is this so called cheap energy? So far green energy is costing the UK 3x the cost of old fossil fuels.

[@chris-non-voter]

Just a question: Could Octopus Energy become another ENRON? It looks like their main focus is on growing the business and increasing profits.

[@afml7049]

Greg doesn't answer his emails.

[@charleswillcock3235]

How often is there no wind for two weeks across the whole of the UK? Tony Seba estimates the worst case you might have a few days without wind not two weeks.

[@MLiebreich]

Seba is a clown.

[@charleswillcock3235]

@@MLiebreich Well that comment has made me laugh. In my experience there does not seem to be more than a few hours without the wind blowing in one direction or another in the UK. I think wind power and ideally more onshore wind would massively help reduce the cost of electricity in the UK particularly if coupled with various types of batteries. Tony Seba is one of the people who has pushed that idea.

[@MLiebreich]

@@charleswillcock3235 Tony Seba has pushed many ideas, including the idea that solar thermal will be a trillion-dollar business; that 200-mile range family EVs will cost $5000; and that 95% of vehicle miles driven in 2030 will be driverless. Like I said, he's a clown.

[@charleswillcock3235]

@@MLiebreich Fair enough, I do not suppose people who predict the future get everything right but I do think new electric cars will be popular by 2030. The part I do not understand is why you are so hostile to him, by international comparisons he seems a fairly harmless chap.

[@warwick.schaffer]

manage half of this but it really feels like an infomercial.

[@benbradbury3665]

Octopus can’t even get a bill right in 6 month’s

[@Scubadooper]

It's not so much that regional pricing saves money, it's HOW locational pricing is implemented. Fracturing the market through regional pricing destroys the price signal to address the key issues. I know that's something Greg doesn't want from his episode 32 interview. Reform of TNUOS/DUOS is required to charge both generation and demand the cost of the system they use. Of course, that's not feasible so you need to simplify and use correlations. Simply put the cost of the system is correlated to the distance between the generation and load. That changes depending on dynamic factors like demand response, embedded generation, and storage. As such it's preferable that TNUOS/DUOS have a "fractal" policy structure so that domestic users who have battery storage, vehicle to grid, solar/wind, etc. get to partake in the system. Regional pricing won't deliver that, it will only fracture the market and weaken price signals for the key issues that need to be targeted with technical solutions - transmission/distribution capacity, storage, reactive power, etc.

[@chrisjohnstone7404]

How can Octopus supply clean each? Are their customers happy with super expensive intermittent power? I don't think so.

[@MrAdopado]

The point is they are doing it. Get yourself a free smart meter and prove it to yourself.

[@nervousfrog101]

My Octopus net electricity bill was £2 last month. That includes standing charge, all heating, all cooking, 2 EV's. So yeah I'm delighted with their 'super expensive intermittent power'. What was your combined gas, electric, and petrol bill for last month chris johnstone lots of numbers?

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

I hear that when the sunshines the nuclear generation has to be turned off. Also when the wind blows. The rooftop PV electricity is too cheap to waste. People are topping up their battery vehicles with cheap rooftop electricity and using it in their homes. This can damage the nuclear generators cashflow and the grids cashflow and the government is going to be asked to protect these assets values. Nuclear was designed to safely run 247 and maximise it's economics. Nuclear is built for 60years or more safe operation and shareholder investment are being put at risk. This is a major concern to a stable climate and society. You should speak up. I can see you are in the sunshine and would understand.

[@ambassadorfromreality1125]

Elon Musk used to sound like Greg before he went bonkers

[@gronkotter]

Regarding locational pricing. It is certainly true that one zone is not enough. It's also ridiculous that the UK compensates for generation that isn't needed or consumed. However, there is a lot of disingenuous bullshit out of consultants like FTI. Greg talked about commodity markets. The proposals out of the economist wonks were that the concept of commodity markets should be thrown out the window. Let's recap how commodities work. They have locational prices - it costs money to move stuff around and there are differences. And they are marginal, the meeting point of the highest cost producer who has a customer willing to buy sets the price FOR ALL volumes sold. The bullshit proposed was that locational-marginal pricing is this magical silver bullet that saves customers hundreds of billions. The generators would be robbed however, as they would not be paid the value of the energy, on the volume that the customer consumed. They could be paid zero for all their energy, while still providing value on some proportion of their capacity. The markets that have this, basically have behind the scenes payments to keep generators whole. There are ZERO natural commodity markets that are locational-marginal. Only locational & marginal. Let's take an example. A wind farm can produce 100 MW, but only 90 MW can make it to the customer. The zonal price is 100. In a normal commodity market the wind farm should be paid 90*100 = 9000. They get zero for what couldn't make it to the customer, and the full amount for the proportion that does. Under locational-marginal pricing, they would be paid 90*0 = 0, because their ultra-accurate nodal price is worth zero at the margin.

[@robertkacala]

it would help if you worked with Rolls-Royce, SMR is a low-cost clean energy solution

[@jtlon1]

Subsidised company saying that their product is cheaper is the funniest / stoopidest thing i'v ever heard...

[@nicholaspostlethwaite9554]

Ok I might have listened to this but it waffles on and is incompetently created. Get to the POINT! Wasting an hour on waffle no one is interested in will not get more watching. It might be great, but few are going to find out. It is rare for me to not put up with things and I tend to watch all through. But the prospect of an hour of this terrible 'presentation' has me out of here. Hope this helps you understand and improve one day, is actually well meant. Pricing must be FAIR, the same to all in the land. That is the dominant fact.

[@MLiebreich]

Thank you for your feedback. Luckily you're a bit of an outlier. As for fairness, to me that means if you live near a wind farm, you should get cheap power - not have to contribute to payingv for that wind farm not operate because the power can't get to the rich people down south.

[@nicholaspostlethwaite9554]

@@MLiebreich It is a nonsense and as bad as the bribery sometimes proposed to con people into not objecting to Some development near them. Besides if you want location biased pricing start paying more for loans from London Banks, or for flights if you are not next to an airport. The concept is ludicrous in a single nation. You would obviously want to end the single postage rates too, universal service, to outlying places, or non London or big southern areas.

[@MrAdopado]

Well, it was certainly a long session but I didn't spot any waffle at all! I watched it in three sessions rather than all at once ... you can criticise the format/length but (IMHO) not the content which was intelligent and informative.

[@leod87]

A lot of wishful thinking here.

[@Benzknees]

Octopus are charging me more than double what Avro used to. If this cheap, clean energy is available, then Octopus certainly isn't providing it. Just another rip off merchant pretending to be the friend of the consumer.

[@MikeGleesonazelectrics]

That's probably why Avro went bust!

[@Benzknees]

@@MikeGleesonazelectrics - The catastrophic covid overreaction was responsible for that, causing a shortage of everything including energy & massive price spikes. The covid disruption is well behind us & natural gas futures (wholesale prices) have returned to pre-covid levels. But still these retail suppliers are charging double the pre-covid rate. It's a gigantic rip-off.

[@MikeGleesonazelectrics]

@@Benzknees it's nothing to do with covid.. energy proces went up with the Ukraine war, which is still going on. Also retail suppliers have to determine their prices in line with ofgem dictats. What is a rip off is that oil companies are getting huge subsidies whilst renewable producers get fined for producing too much electricity. Madness!

[@Benzknees]

@@MikeGleesonazelectrics - There is actually a world beyond Britain's borders, where natural gas futures are internationally traded in USD/MMBTU!!! And you can easily verify the pre-covid panic quote for early March 2020 was 1.869. When Russia intervened in Ukraine's 2014 war on the Donbass in Feb 2022, the futures rate was 5.016, nearly 3x as high, so entirely covid related. It's currently 2.382, over 50% down. As I say easily verified facts, not something chosen to try to justify some anti-UK only based oil company rant. Octopus are free to buy gas on the wholesale market, and their prices should have come down 50% from peak. Even more so as they wrap themselves up in a virtue signalling 'green' energy cloak, so gas prices temporarily surging should have had less of an effect. And Ofgem only dictate the price cap. Octopus already claim to undercut this slightly. And there appears no good reason why they can't do a lot more without harming their business & profitability. Stop defending the indefensible, these companies are harming everyone's standard of living.

[@Benzknees]

@@MikeGleesonazelectrics - There is actually a world beyond Britain's borders, where natural gas futures are internationally traded in USD/MMBTU!!! And you can easily verify the pre-covid panic quote for early March 2020 was 1.869. When Russia intervened in Ukraine's 2014 war on the Donbass in Feb 2022, the futures rate was 5.016, nearly 3x as high, so entirely covid related. It's currently 2.382, over 50% down. All easily verified facts, not something chosen to try to justify some anti-UK only based oil company rant. Octopus are free to buy gas on the wholesale market, and their prices should have come down 50% from peak. Even more so as they wrap themselves up in a virtue signalling 'green' energy cloak, so gas prices temporarily surging should have had less of an effect. And Ofgem only dictate the price cap. Octopus already claim to undercut this slightly. And there appears no good reason why they can't do a lot more without harming their business.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

A typical demand for power during the day in the UK is 45 Gwh and 30 Gwh at night. Let's assume 1 GWh is the same as 1 glass of wine and the Grid needs 45 glasses of wine per hour in the daytime and 30 glasses per hour at night. Now let's assume wind power is producing 45 glasses per hour to keep up with demand, what happens to the 15 glasses per hour of wine that the Grid can't use and will the Grid customers still be paying for it? If the answer is to store in batteries then let's assume this battery storage is in increments of glass sized containers, assuming a day is 12 hours and night is 12 hours for simplicity, would have to store at night 180 glasses of wine or throw it away. If for example there are 7 days without wind to serve as an effective backup, this container would have to store 6300 glasses or 6.3 Terawatts. How much would this container cost and where would it be sited?

[@garysmith5025]

Your question assumes 100% wind, which isn't a sensible starting point. On a future fully renewable grid there is bound to be a mixture of wind, hydro, solar, tidal, biomass (not imported) and geothermal.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@garysmith5025 Labour have a plan to "decarbonize the Grid by 2030". So no gas then? Most of those alternatives are impossible to scale up, especially hydro, geothermal and biomass. Tidal is too vulnerable to storm damage and corrosion. With wind you can't turn wind off and on on demand, so any spare power that is produced will still be charged as a constraint charge. Gas is the cheapest form of power by a country mile and the most reliable. Every wind turbine added to the Grid adds increasing costs in land rents, transmission lines, constraint charges and subsidies. We will dream of electric bills today as being cheap in comparison by 2030.

[@garysmith5025]

@@Sjb-on5xt "Gas is the cheapest form of power by a country mile" Absolute rubbish, solar is cheapest followed by onshore wind. Tidal has been operating in the Pentland Firth for nearly 10 years with no issues. There are plenty of uses for "spare" wind energy, the most obvious is hydrogen as feedstock for fertiliser production. Cost seems to be an over-riding consideration for you, would you consider the country paying £80bn to decarbonise our electricity to be too high?

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@garysmith5025 Not according to the latest round of auctions, which take no account of subsidies and thousands of miles of transmission lines. The cost of decarbonizing the Grid will amount into several £trillions. Is that too high for you? The cost is a factor, building in an unreliable intermittent power source as a base load, is the main factor, is for guaranteed regular blackouts. The third factor is which industries will be left in the UK that has unreliable expensive power to keep the lights on? Think what countries have this as a feature and how much industry they have.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@garysmith5025 The claims being made by Labour, Greens and Tories is that renewables are "9 times cheaper than imported gas". So when are we going to see electricity bills 1/9th of their present rate? The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

Let's assume wind power provides 100% power to the grid, what happens on windless days? On days or nights when there's less demand, will the Grid and its customers still be charged for spare power produced (constraint charges) and wouldn't we still require a fleet of gas powered stations to provide the backup power on windless days adding more expense to your bills? Batteries are too expensive, would bankrupt the nation to store no more than a few minutes worth.

[@hagechin]

There are an increasing number of high-voltage transmission links in, to and from the United Kingdom from a variety of national and international locations that supply green energy that help mitigate the issue of intermittency. For example, the wind stops blowing in one location, hydro or solar plug that gap in supply from another region or country.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@hagechin Ah but what is the capacity of those interconnectors? Would they be able to supply 45Gwh of power at peaktimes in the depths of Winter for when the wind doesn't blow and the Sun doesn't shine? On Gridwatch the maximum indicator hydro is about 1Gwh and only designed for short bursts of power, biomass is about 3 Gwh; The French interconnector is 4 Gwh, the Irish is 1Gwh, Norway is 1.5Gwh and Dutch is 1 Gwh. Existing nuclear power fleet is to be all but phased out by 2028, is today about 5 Gwh. That's a shortfall of about 30 Gwh, bearing in mind demand will climb as more EV cars owners want to charge their vehicles, more homes switch to heat pumps and electric cookers and more power hungry data centers come on line.

[@davidedwards4691]

@@Sjb-on5xt When did the wind not blow around the whole of the UK 🇬🇧 name the specific dates. There is always wind somewhere around UK. Admittedly it does vary a lot and this variance needs to be allowed for in the planning of supply.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@davidedwards4691 It's quite common around February for a high pressure system to sit over the whole UK for a week. Other times on average 10 days out of any 30 throughout the year is little to no wind. Check out Gridwatch to see graphs of how variable it is, all seamlessly backed up by gas. It matters little how many wind turbines you stick up, no wind = no power.

[@Sjb-on5xt]

@@davidedwards4691 "Always wind around somewhere". Quite probably, but you can't produce the amount of energy from wind to redistribute it far in the Grid. Let's say it's windy up in Scotland and you wished to distribute the power to London and SE, the losses involved would be too great.

[@GeraldMonkcom]

Hopefully Greg can inform Ed Miliband before Ed wastes more tax payers money.

[@Martin-se3ij]

I thought Octopus sounded great until I read the reviews from actual customers. Yikes!

[@iareid8255]

The first lie is 'cheap renewables' they are not, they are expensive to build, expensive to maintain and lose output steadily with age such that their life is shorter than conventional generators. It is amistake to think taht wind and solar are equivalent to cvonventional genertaors, they are not on practical or technical attributes and are no replacement. They also need significant infrastructure which has to be rated for maximum possible power from the wind turbines but in practice carry far less than half the rated capcity so being costly and inefficient. The other, and I think, hardly known fact that wind needs the support of conventional generators to ensure the grid stays on. In practice this generation, in the U.K., is gas and we need about an equal amount of gas capcity as renewables otherwise there is the very real likelyhood of blackouts. In essence we have a parallel set of generators, we could do without wind, we cannot do without gas so this is a hidden cost passed on to the consumer and a factor of why more renewables on the grid equates to a higher consumer unit cost. Not just in the U.k., Germany is exactly the same. Mr Jackson is obviously a good businessman but he's not doing the average consumer any favours. While residential consumers are importantr, more widely commerce and industry suffer and some close or relocate adding to inflation which benefits everyone negatively.

[@vylbird8014]

Expensive to build, yes. But how are they expensive to maintain? A wind turbine lasts twenty to thirty years, and the only cost is the annual visit from an engineer to do some routine servicing. Solar just needs someone to wipe the bird crap off the panels.

[@MLiebreich]

I'm guessing you didn't even bother to watch the episode. No helping some people.

[@iareid8255]

@@vylbird8014 the records show otherwise particularly the more modern and larger units with the prevalence of main bearing failure. Few last beyond twenty years of economic life as their output deteriorates steadily, some are unviable at fifteem years from what I read?

[@iareid8255]

@@MLiebreich Of course I didn't, I'm too well aware of this gentlemans reputation and whatever spin he puts on what is an inferior source of generation.

[@ianlighting100]

How can you learn something new if you refuse to absorb information from the CEO of UK’s biggest energy company?

[@Zanderzan1983]

I like this podcast but given Simon Michauxs study - which you said was ridicuous - has now been peer reviewed, and it shows the green transition is utterly impossible, what now? And given he has suggested an alternative, what now? I say this as a renewables enginner. Its simply not going to work. Lets take Simons alternative seriously.

[@MLiebreich]

Sorry, no. Michaux assumes that every wind and solar project requires four weeks of dedicated battery backup - which of course produces an impossibly high figure for mineral demand. His maths may be correct, but his assumptions are wildly idiotic, which is why no serious energy analyst agrees with them.

[@Zanderzan1983]

@@MLiebreich In his paper, he shows that when the wind doesn't blow in France, its generally not blowing anywhere in Europe. He has his data. Why not present yours and point exactly how he is wildly wrong. This shouldn't be about opinion - this is physics. It should not be difficult ti figure out who is closest to the truth. Michaux has been ridiculed time and again yet not one person has been able to prove him wrong. Last year was the highest emissions, ever. At the same time, Europe is deindustrialising. The green transition is going catastrophically wrong. Yet when someone points out an alternative - and Michaux is very much for renewables, in particular solar - he is savagely attacked. This is stupid tribalism, as we barrel towards 4.8 degrees by the end of the century.

[@user-nx6ji9tk8i]

Simon Michaux has a lot of examples of different buffer time frames. Understands the mining and mineral challenges with decreasing ore grades. Mark P Mills is the man for those physics & engineering calculations. To get 20lb copper need to mine one ton of ore ( @ 1% grade ) Move the decimal point / add those zeros for 0.1% grade ore. And all the mining driven by diesel. Somebody do the math at these energy debates.Join up the dots. Consider the Purple transition.

[@Zanderzan1983]

@@user-nx6ji9tk8i most people involved with the green transition are mining blind. They simply do not want to hear about the shrinking copper ore content. Why is that? Im a proponent of the green transition who now believes it isn't and cannot work. Wind and solar cant be the main energy system.

[@earthflute2248]

Omg.. what f'ing waffle.

[@MrAdopado]

Could you give me some time stamps for the bit containing waffle? Didn't spot any personally!