The Wargame that Could Dethrone Warhammer and Star Wars

It's probably true that no single miniature wargame is more popular than 40k, with the Star Wars games (Legion, X-Wing, Armada) running second. Is there any property that could dethrone them in the world of miniature wargames? Yes, and it's been around for more than 30 years. Unfortunately, it'll never happen. Find out what it is and find out why any effort at producing it is doomed.
Bookmarks
4:26 I Caught The Crud
6:10 What attracts people to Warhammer and Star Wars
8:42 The Problem with Historicals
9:51 Lord of the Rings?
11:07 Battletech?
13:22 The Answer!
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[@cptwinters241]

I wish Warlord games would expand on Konflikt 47 more. It has really good historical and sci-fi aspects. There just isn’t enough there at present to compete with 40K, but there could be.

[@attentionspanlabs]

It seems they've given up on K47 after they bought it outright last year. No new releases and, most importantly, no one ever reached out to me even though I've done more to promote that game than almost anyone on KZbin!

[@cptwinters241]

@@attentionspanlabs it’s really unfortunate. With a multi-dimensional premise the possibilities are literally endless. A door could open up and anything from eldritch horrors to terminators could come through. I have fun imagining German grenadiers defending Normandy beach against lovecraftian nightmares emerging from the ocean.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@cptwinters241 it was a mistake for them to explicitly exclude supernatural forces in the game. They make more sense and there are more possibilities. I have a whole unit of deep ones made by Crucible Crush games that I use in K47 games.

[@weirdwwii8775]

Yeah, Warlord has walked away from it for sure. Hell, their pricing it outta most folks budget too with its pricing. Better Weird WWII out there anyway for a fraction of the cost or free if you got a 3D printer.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@weirdwwii8775 two years later and I still occasionally get comments on my k47 videos saying, "hey, I thought you said this stuff was inexpensive?" Well it was when I made the video!

[@lexington476]

I've been a huge fan of BattleTech since the late '80s early 90s, hence the icon 🙂. You are correct, BattleTech does not scale well, the game is focused on the mechs, with everything else being support. Also if you're playing the regular BattleTech rules, once you get about 10 units on each side the game just bogs down, at least in my experience. 4 on 4 it's great, but 12 on 12 not so much.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Many games have this problem. It surprises me that they've never done a large scale battletech ruleset that focuses less on the exemplary MechWarrior and more on the weight of clashing armies.

[@lexington476]

@@attentionspanlabs there is Alpha Strike, which looking at the rules seems to be a pretty good game but I have yet to played it. There's also the older BattleForce, which got an update a few years ago, but I've never played that one either.

[@juddgoswick2024]

Rifts is a gonzo, fun setting. The power-creep that the RPG sees is a feature not a bug in tabletop gaming, as the point buys can adapt for it.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Yeah, its no different than what GW does everytime a new codex comes out.

[@thomaswilliams5005]

You had me at Vampires with Laser guns

[@ericbortega]

What you shared about Rifts kind of reminds me of Magic the Gathering and its different planes. MtG is limited on factions, but it is the property of Hasbro that does have the funds to make a go of it if they wished.

[@RichardRohlin]

I've heard many people who play it say that MESBG is much better in terms of gameplay than anything else GW makes. There's a big cottage industry in people kitbashing their own 1st and 2nd Age models.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Very true. Also has proper scale minis designed by the Perry Brothers. There was a whole line of games called Warhammer Ancients that was adapted out of the mesbg ruleset.

[@theconversationalpainter2020]

It's weird I was just talking to my wife today about how much I enjoyed a Rifts game we played a few years ago. You would have to do something about Mega damage though.

[@attentionspanlabs]

I tried to do a conversion to OSE but the disorganization of the books made me give up.

[@RKBrumbelow]

I responded on mewe, but another license that could go ttwg is Anima it is a Spanish roll over d100 system published in the US by Famtasy Flight.

[@attentionspanlabs]

OK, but Fantasy Flight is one of the entities we want to dethrone.

[@weirdwwii8775]

Hope for a full recovery for you and yours ASAP. I'd put it to the folks to just write your own, play your own, and create your OWN worlds instead of playing in someone else's. My rules have the mechanics I want and allows me to play how I want. It also allows me to update and modify it to my liking at any time. My mechanics allow for any time period's play and even has the ability to roleplay with them as well. The only reason I buy rules is to read them and just see what they are like and if there is a mechanic, or weapon, or spell or something that I like i will just incorporate it into my rules ,or if their within the Weird WWII genera because I'm a Weird War Weirdo. ;) I think the longer you play as a wargamer or roleplayer, you just make your gaming your own and don't really need to use someone else's stuff. Just the opinion of a 40+ year long wargamer.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Very much agreed and thanks for the well wishes. I'm feeling much better today.

[@Gold_Bug]

Its sad that Warmachine died, I only played one game but it was fun and seemed to have a solid playerbase.

[@attentionspanlabs]

It's still around, but yeah, I remember 20 years ago it was extremely successful.

[@warthog45]

I had hand and foot once, also brought home from dsycare, I feel you pain

[@NewSquallor]

Would be really hard for Rifts to do their own mini line though given most of their properties are generic. With 3d printers everyone would be printing their own things. I suppose if they focused just on selling rules and supplements it might work. Been playing Battletech since the stone age. Alpha Strike rules may give it more reach and allow larger games but they really have a hard time keeping product on shelves and promotion.

[@attentionspanlabs]

If all they made were coalition states minis, they'd make bank. Those designs are distinctive and awesome. I think they have a lot of non generic units, especially with the Naruni, Atlantis, Glitter Boys, Cyber Knights, Juicers, gargoyle empire and Sovietski stuff

[@raymondsolar944]

Great opportunity for independent artists and designers to make and market minis that could be used in various types of games that you could play with Rifts. I look at the open-ended nature of this situation (using Rifts) as a huge positive rather than a negative.

[@recoveringlibertarian5982]

We are now in a new time . With 3d printing with stls and good lore videos

[@attentionspanlabs]

This is true for the elite, but most people, even amongst wargamers, won't get into 3D printing. Why? Who knows. There are no serious obstacles to it. Yet I still get people whining about how they couldn't possibly do it, or how they "can't afford it" even as they pull out the credit card for the latest ridiculous GW release.

[@recoveringlibertarian5982]

Could actually work it has everything

[@recoveringlibertarian5982]

Song of ice and fire is good apparently

[@attentionspanlabs]

Miniatures are sharp looking, for sure

[@barbarian_bunny]

I think Rifts would make a cool wargame setting. The rules though...

[@attentionspanlabs]

Oh yeah, it'd need a totally different rule set, one suitable for mass wargaming. All in all, the Palladium system isn't bad for roleplaying, it's basically AD&D with the names changed. The problem really gets thick with the 10 million classes spells and special powers scattered throughout every book.

[@user-dt3ks4sr4i]

Hey I got a question what do you think of castles in the sky by Osprey games ? It is a game dealing with flying battleships.Just thought I would ask. By the way hope you feel better soon.

[@attentionspanlabs]

I feel just fine now, thanks! I haven't played Castles in the Sky yet, but I love that whole genre. I have a couple of large-scale aeronefs of the space 1889 sort that I would like to try with it.

[@user-dt3ks4sr4i]

@@attentionspanlabs i am happy that your good now and I have incorporated the rule sets of castles in the sky into an rpg campaign. I plan on doing a skies of arcadia style world, Now I just need players lol.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@user-dt3ks4sr4i I wasn't familiar with Skies of Arcadia. I assumed it was a Space Pirate Captain Harlock property at first. That's a cool idea. Where are you looking for players?

[@user-dt3ks4sr4i]

@@attentionspanlabs well I was looking for players locally. But finding people to play these type campaigns around where I live is hard if not impossible.We got a gaming store that is popular around here. Thought about posting things for players there when I get everything together. I am not sure how to host online campaigns . At least not yet.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@user-dt3ks4sr4i recruiting at the local game store is good, just remember to say expectations and remember that not everyone is going to be suited for your game. My first piece of advice is to screen out anyone with weird hair, ironic eyeglasses, or characters they've already "generated".

[@josephkoltes2559]

Land & sea could be a contender in the near future. It's a setting where aliens invade Earth by using the oceans as a foothold. The alien forces are made up of genetically engineered creatures that are basically mash-ups of various amphibious animals. With the humans fighting back with combat drones, and Heavy power armor, as well as conventional forces. Both a wargame, and an RPG are currently in development, as well as five novels currently out and a sixth novel that's supposed to be in publication by the end of the year. One of the cool things is it looks like it's going to have battles that take place on both land and the ocean floor. Hopefully whatever they come up with for the games does the novels justice.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Sounds cool! I'd never heard of it.

[@josephkoltes2559]

The franchise is owned by Creative Juggernaut, and the novels are being published by War Gate Nova. So far all of the novels have been written by Blaine Lee Pardoe, who is also part owener of Creative Juggernaut. Which gives me I hopes, because the man has no time for woke bullshit.

[@AlxParrish]

Battletech alphastrike is the best

[@DBWave94]

Sadly, my best friend who just so happens to be somewhat interested in wargaming is a hardcore meta gamer and unboxing junkie. When he's not trying to acquire the scummiest meta MTG cards, he's wasting hundreds on Hero Clix blind packs hoping for a Chase...not an enjoyable experience at the game shop to say the least. Kind of ruined it for me.

[@attentionspanlabs]

This is a sickness akin to gambling addiction. I will pray for him.

[@DBWave94]

​​@@attentionspanlabsNot too long ago, I confronted him on it, and I was shocked to see the instant change in his demeanor. Lashed out at me and told me he'll tell me when he's had enough. Dude is struggling with some demons. Praying that he sees the error of his ways one day.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@DBWave94 Lord have mercy!

[@SGusky]

While I played many of these games you mentioned I don’t think anything will topple GW just because of the marketing aspect Same thing as in flames of war Better games are out there more accurate more fun but because they’re not wrapped up with a shiny box and shiny starter sent and pushed by the game store owners they won’t be as popular Look how good of rules Battlegroup series is, and how in-depth and should I say a good representation of a historical simulation.. Heck, even the old command decision is a great game Because there’s no box of Sherman’s or box of tiger tanks all wrapped up nice and neat ready to go. It’s hard to sell. Much like GW their marketing department is pushing this on people you may pick up a box or two or one of the very beginning starter sets and say oh yeah I Play 40 K and are totally oblivious to the other game systems out there I’ve tried many times to run a little games of these offbeat rules, such as a Warlords of Erewhon dead man’s hand, etc. but they dont “stick” Watch out the new 10th edition comes out for $100 and they lose their nuts … Keep the faith keep pushing these games keep having fun in your own world how ever you like it that’s the best thing about these games It’s all about you and your friends !!

[@attentionspanlabs]

Agreed, and this is all part of what I glossed over by saying "properly supported." At their peak, Palladium was very, very good at marketing their books, and bundling/advertising related books together. Their ads were all over '90s comic books and they really knew how to "sell the sizzle."

[@SGusky]

@@attentionspanlabs agreed and again … well said

[@misomiso8228]

RIFTS!!!!!!!

[@attentionspanlabs]

One of my very favorite RPGs. Thanks for watching.

[@marcoantoniosalazarmatamor9496]

The way the market is these days, and how the cost of living is just constantly rising and making games purchasing an increasingly unaffordable secondary expense, I believe any game that has a steady player base and just maintains production is a good game. Let 40K keep its post at the top of the hill - it’s just too much effort to wage war against it. And the way all the pundits like to crow about it, it seems like when/if it happens, it will be 40K’s own hubris that does it, not the other dude being a billion times better (and they will inevitably turn their attention to it and begin talking about *that* game has its days counted). Choose your battlefield and enjoy playing in it. And by enjoying playing in it, help the company you enjoy buying from keep the line alive.

[@attentionspanlabs]

Thanks for commenting. GW and Fantasy Flight (or whatever they're called now) both suck and deserve to be wiped out. If someone else can serve up better more enticing pablum and knock either of them out, more power to them. I do not think their near-duopoly is healthy for the hobby, even if it's good for business because it draws in more normies.

[@MrAirpumpkin]

An ip needs off tabletop engagement (video game or tv/movies for example) and shelf presence in stores. So far the only alternative that really has those things is battletech and so despite the different scale cbt/as remains the most realistic alternative

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@MrAirpumpkin A common opinion, but not one I've ever heard sufficiently justified. Warhammer 40k was the single most popular tabletop miniatures game long before it had any really popular computer games ( Space Hulk and Final Liberation were not big games), let alone tv series. Just as in the TTRPG or comic book world, I see very little evidence of screen fans becoming devoted to the original. If they get involved at all, it is temporary tourism.

[@MrAirpumpkin]

@attentionspanlabs what are starwars miniatures fans if not converted screen fans? Battletech itself leaned on video games during its literal dark age. Things might have been different before the late 90's poke-mania, but to grow now you need extra ways to communicate a settings spectacle in order to convert viewers into hobbyists. Of course this is assuming you want it to grow and "unseat" warhammer and starwars, nothing is wrong with just organizing enclaves of niche games.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@MrAirpumpkin You said X is necessary, I gave an obvious example of a game that didn't have X and now sits at the top spot. Thus I consider your original claim refuted. Sure, having big media tie-ins probably wouldn't hurt it, but it's not necessary. If anything, I think it's more likely that big media tie-ins would decrease the chances of success in the long run because the creators would be more interested in chasing normie cash in theaters and lifestyle merchandise (as, indeed, Hasbro is doing with D&D) than focusing on the game itself.

[@MrAirpumpkin]

@@attentionspanlabs And I gave the circumstances refuting your refute. Gw grew before Poke-mania but poke-mania changed the game. Warhammer and D&D stuck around as they were to big for game stores to ever stop carrying, but everything else battletech, cyberpunk, shadow run, traveller, etc died under the weight of marketable plushies and cards and those that had a proper resurgence only survived by having media tie ins to bring in new blood, its a necessary strategy to grow in the shadows of giants like starwars and 40k.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@MrAirpumpkin You refuted nothing. You didn't even begin to explain why "Poke-mania", whatever the hell that is, changed the fundamentals. The idea that a significant number of people, let alone long-term players, are drawn to miniature wargaming because of stuffed animals is laughable. Normies don't play miniature wargames, full stop. Therefore normie-attraction does not drive adoption of the game, just like the multi-billion dollar Marvel and DC movies did not save the comic book companies. Normie attraction drives company profits, but it has nothing to do with the popularity and health of a miniature wargame. Furthermore, wargames, let alone ones involving miniatures that you have to build and paint, are never going to be as popular as board games or card games. It's a steep IQ, money, and time curve that miniature wargames don't benefit from. So your attempt to compare a miniature wargame with a non-miniature wargame is an evasion. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about in this video. The TTRPG collapse in the late '90s has much more to do with the weakness of the flagship (TSR) and the financial mismanagement of the publishers than "Poke-mania." West End Games, then-famous publisher of -- guess what? STAR WARS -- just up and died in 1999, right as the long-awaited Star Wars Episode 1 was about to hit theaters.

[@btrenninger1]

One option would be good old D&D. It has a similar wide range of monsters. Up to and including Science Fiction elements which have been present from the early days. Plus, it has name recognition much bigger than Rifts, and was originally developed out of miniature wargaming so would be easy to pivot back in that direction. But, of course, Wizards would have to become a totally different company.

[@username12120]

One of my friends runs DnD as a skirmish wargame. I think he sets a value of challenge rating and you then select your force with that limit in mind. Makes for a lot of strange and varied forces duking it out.

[@attentionspanlabs]

D&D doesn't have a particular setting, except maybe Mystara, that can compete with 40k, the old world, or star wars in terms of depth, and for a dominant wargames system, I think this is absolutely required. You need a strong basis for unique miniature designs and Rifts is one of the very few RPGs that has that. Btech and DP9 games are the other examples.

[@btrenninger1]

@@attentionspanlabs I'm not saying Rifts isn't a strong candidate. I'm just saying D&D is too. I do take your point about setting, none alone offer the range Rifts does. But, D&D has several settings, which arguably, with planeshifting, are all one setting. D&D did multiverse before Rifts. Plus it has one things Rift does not have which is the largest group of players of RPGs in the world, especially if you include all the various D&D spinoffs.

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@btrenninger1 but which of those settings is ready made for factions battling each other with distinctive armies? Mystara is the only one I can think of which puts any kind of focus on that.

[@btrenninger1]

@@attentionspanlabs Well, all of them potentially. I can't think of one that doesn't have major factions that fight each other. Dark Sun, for example is each City State against the other, like on Barsoom. Greyhawk, is endless fights between nations not to mention all the humanoids in the monster manual, and the various underdark empires vying with each other and threatening to spill into the day. Ravenloft has all the classic monster movie monsters each with their own domain in conflict with the others. Plus, since their are conversions in the 1e DMG, all the Gammaworld Factions, spilling into the wild west and the 19th century USA and Indian tribes (also conversion in the DMG). See the 1e Semi-human Humanoid racial preferences table in the DMG as they indication of the various humanoid alliances. Spelljammer, fleets of magical space galleys duking it out.

[@8elias8]

Its a loaded title and topic. I would ask more of a fundamental question to you. Why does 40k or SW need to be dethroned? I think what is derogatorily called "fluff" is actually the biggest selling point for products in this space. If you look at 40k objectively, its got a huge barrier for entry with the obtuse and ever changing rules and famously pricey models. They have their cheaper products that are suppose to bring people in, and I'm sure they do, but I think the biggest reason people get into it is because of the lore. Its the "cheapest" thing. Reading rules takes an investment in time to see it pay off when you sit down and play. Models are nice and pretty but cost $$$. Lore can be found even for free online, is generally entertaining and somewhat relatable to the current zeitgeist and more broadly to historical events (even if only in names). So what I'm saying is its really the stories that bring people in or if they don't bring them in its what makes them stay. Now to turn it around I'd argue that what these companies are doing today is following course with what all other ESG companies are doing. Thus alienating a bigger and bigger subset of consumers by typecasting them as something they are not, condemning said phantom and then valiantly signaling their faux-juxtaposed virtue. When in fact all most of them do is just project. That is to say they are telling shit stories. ala There's no good or evil anymore. Its just your point of view man. Emps is the real bad guy! The sith are just misunderstood... We need better stories. These people can write themselves into oblivion for all I care. Just screams narrative emo nihilism.

[@attentionspanlabs]

To answer your questions in order... I didn't say they needed to be dethroned. I mean, I believe they do, but that's not the point of the video. Time was when a man could talk about a possibility and how it may play out without getting sidetracked about whether it should or shouldn't be. They are separate issues. I think they both need to be dethroned because the games, and especially the companies behind them, are bad for the wargaming hobby. I have made this point on several other videos on this channel. Fluff is not a derogatory term. It achieves its meaning in contrast to what is called crunch -- also not derogatory -- aka rule mechanics. In the very video you are commenting on, I talk at length about how important the fluff and game setting are to making a Warhammer/Star Wars killer. While I agree that the fluff is important to drawing people in, I do not think -- in fact, I emphatically reject, as I stated in my recent video entitled "No, Wargaming Is Not For Everyone" that -- that watching lore videos or reading books makes you a part of the hobby. Maybe a part of the "Games Workshop Hobby", which is a made-up consumerist thing pushed by a large corporation which is increasingly bent on creating a Lifestyle Brand rather than a set of wargames, but certainly not the wargaming hobby. To be part of that hobby, you have to play wargames.

[@8elias8]

@attentionspanlabs Fair enough. Would be interesting to see some actual quantitative market persona/user analysis of people that "consume" wargames. Would be curious to see how many play on a regular basis, how many just consume entertainment, how many paint, etc, all of the above. I remember about 6+ years ago GW had just such a questionnaire. Concerning the direction they've gone since then, I wonder how much it played into their decision making.

[@8elias8]

P.s. Hope you have a full recovery. Don't get sun on it or you may end up with scars.

[@RussellWilliams736]

Did you roll a sanity check?

[@attentionspanlabs]

Three times every night

[@lexington476]

Whatever happened to the game Warmachine? for the longest time that was supposed to dethrone Games Workshop.

[@attentionspanlabs]

It's still around and in fact privateer press has put out several other very cool games like their Kaiju battle game. But yes, something happened because 20 years ago it was huge. You'll notice I had a copy of the rules in my video here.

[@lexington476]

@@attentionspanlabs i was more listening then watching 😔.

[@joshuafarlow-wolgast8082]

This is a complicated story from what I've heard. They are trying to make a comeback with MKIV, but at the same time have gutted the old models, so that you can only purchase the newer models because they've moved to exclusively 3d print their models with the moved to a new building. It could come back, but it will take some time I think.

[@attentionspanlabs]

If they are selling 3D printed models, that suggests that they are doing comparatively low volume. It doesn't make sense to print instead of injection mold if you can afford it.

[@email7567]

The main appeal of 40k and Starwars to me is their focus on old European aesthetics, taking inspiration from WWI, WWII, medieval and even ancient area designs for armor and weapons. The aesthetic in Rifts doesn't look like it has any focus to it, nothing really defines the Rifts aesthetic, it looks like it's just randomly mashing a bunch of different tropes together. This also applies to the lore, I just feel like I have seen this same general concept applied many times, just cramping a bunch of tropes in an anything goes kind of universe. Nonprofit RPGs on Second Life do this kind of thing all the time. While I outright dislike Starwars lore, I can appreciate it's explicit motifs. What I like about Warhammer is it's themes on authoritarianism, corruption, hopelessness, and conflict between species where peace never was and never will be an option. What makes Warhammer so good is it was inspired by real history, so even though it has all this crazy shit in it it still feels believable and real. I could still end up liking Rifts, you just haven't really sold me on it with this half an hour long video.

[@email7567]

Also another overarching thing about Warhammer that I like is the focus religion has on a lot of factions.

[@attentionspanlabs]

What? Warhammer 40k is one of the most ad hoc, crap-thrown-together settings imaginable. Rifts is more so, but not by a huge amount. And saying Warhammer was inspired by real history is like when Hollywood says their entirely made up fantasy film was inspired by a true story. The point of the video wasn't to sell anyone on Rifts, either. Thanks for watching, though.

[@recoveringlibertarian5982]

Battelle tech is a ok game

[@attentionspanlabs]

I actually love Battletech as a setting, but I don't like the scale and I'm not interested in supporting the woke scumbags at Catalyst.

[@warlok363]

​​@@attentionspanlabsas opposed to all the other woke corpo scumbags? Their wokeness is like pre-K level compared to WotC and Disney. CGL woke is being handed down from Topps/Fanatics/Blackrock

[@attentionspanlabs]

@@warlok363 so what? I don't give money to Disney or WOTC either.

[@recoveringlibertarian5982]

Rifts only old heads know

[@attentionspanlabs]

Yes, but it doesn't need current name recognition, the aesthetics sell itself.

[@elijahherstal776]

Honestly, what I'd say for anyone who wants to make a '40k Killer'? Don't. Everything I've ever seen that tries to do this... basically makes a poor imitation of 40k. Remember 'Halo Killers' and 'WoW Killers'? There's a reason no one remembers any of them by name, but everyone remembers the era where everyone was trying to do that, and making disappointing clones. I'm working on my own game, and the sage advice I got from a few people who've worked in the tabletop gaming industry? Make a game that you think will be fun. Get people to try it- and a variety of people is better for this, not just 'your type of gamer'. Take feedback, but don't heap a pile of 'suggested additions' into it Don't lose sight of what your end state is. If your game is too much like another game people are already playing, no one has a reason to play yours. Don't try to appeal to everyone out there, it's okay to be niche. Comparing your work to that of a multi-million dollar company with decades of game experience And my personal goal: *If a couple of people play my game, tell me it was cool and they had fun? It was a success.*

[@attentionspanlabs]

Good advice

[@akumaking1]

Have you tried OnePageRules?

[@attentionspanlabs]

Yes. There's an OPR battle report somewhere on the channel. For OPR to overthrow Warhammer, it would have to stop being a cut-rate copy of it. OPR actually depends on the popularity of GW games to survive and seeks to emulate the experience of playing Nth edition, both of which are always going to limit its horizons. Which is a shame because I like their 3d models and they could probably make a go of it if they broke the chains of slavishness to Warhammer.