Why Smart People Become Conspiracy Theorists with Naomi Klein - Factually! - 237

[@TheAdamConover]

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[@AthenaNKnight]

I can answer this. It's because the "conspiracy" turns out to be true. Like UFOs, and the Younger Dryas impact event. Or even the Lab Leak from Wuhan.

[@Alice_Sweicrowe]

You had me worried there for a minute, until I watched those two shows. Please, be careful how you title your videos.

[@DangerAmbrose]

Children are being trafficked to give rich people blood transfusions.

[@mariofeathers4194]

Revoke her medical license for promoting misinformation and malinformation. Her patients will need to see a real doctor.

[@charliebaby7065]

so hypocritical. look at you peddling your theories for $$$ FACTUALLY my nose hairs. this is as dumb as rocks. you havent even clarified what conspiratorial means, let alone conspiracy theorist oxford languages states conspiracy theorist as "a person who believes that some secret but influential organization is responsible for a particular event or phenomenon." i mean just last video of yours i was watching about ebay returns you stated , and i qoute "your return doesnt go back on the shelf it ends up as the fluxum of capitalism, drifting around a shadow market of resellers that bid on pallets of our disused crap sight unseen in hopes they can unload some of it on ebay before they dump the rest of it in a land fill" so, amazons responsible for this event? or is it the shadow market of resellers? or the original sellers you returned to. combined, do they make up this "secret but influential organization" are they the ones responsible? this sounds like a consipiracy theory to me doesn't it? and just because other people have drastic assumtions(theories) that 1 person is saying things uncharacteristic of themself just because 2 people, that admittly look alike and both write books, has mixed their perception of the truth............of who is who doesnt qualify them as crazy conspiracy theorists it simple qualifies them as mistakened and the two doplegangers get qualified as "not important enough to truly notice or care about" sounds like yall are just trying to pitch a video and a book, and im pretty sure thats a fact jack go ahead and call me a CT all you want. look, people, either use logic correctly or they don't , but i guarentee you they are not 100% consistent with either. raise the stress levels on them and i guarentee that consistency will most likely begin to lean towards incorrect logic..... unless they're just constantly filled with the kinda hype your peddling now. why did the pandemic cause so many more CT to rise up? thats simple. because they were locked indoors listening to the likes of you two. I really wanted to be nice in this comment but realizing more and more that both of you are ONLY pushing this thread fuller and fuller of incorrect logic and statements and then vague, shifting and hypocritical definitions solely for commercial benefits, i could care less if it offends you I despise conspiracy theorists as we know them as anti vaxers flat eathers moon hoaxers you name it but conspiracy theorists that are innocently non selfishly expressing their concerns and are logical (i dont even care if they're right or wrong) do not deserve being thrown under the bus by you because you don't agree with them Soley for your financial benefits get your definitions SET and CLEAR before being such a jerk

[@clrbrk9108]

A conservative friend of mine was falling down the conspiracy rabbit hole in 2020-2021. COVID, election stolen, etc. Then he came upon flat earth and it was interesting what happened when we had conversations about that. He actually recognized the absurdity of flat earth and began researching and learning to debunk flat earthers. After learning about researching, logical fallacies, and basic critically thinking to debunk flat earthers, he began to apply those tools to his other beliefs. One by one those conspiracies fell apart for him.

[@CliffSedge-nu5fv]

I am so glad that story has a happy ending. So many people compartmentalize their beliefs, so that the logic they use to debunk some beliefs aren't used to debunk their own wrong ideas.

[@kicsms_science3729]

It can go the other way, as well, unfortunately - a person accepts one conspiracy and that leads them to mistrust reliable sources of info, and that makes them prey to the next conspiracy, etc.

[@KonwTheTrut]

That’s how most of us leave that mentality. Just takes one really crazy conspiracy to debunk before we learn how to see the flaws in our other stupid ideas.

[@RevShifty]

@@kicsms_science3729 That's colloquially called "crank magnetism". And that's why I usually immediately write off anyone screeching about "do your own research!" or any one conspiracy. I've seen it get so much worse way more times than I've ever seen it get better.

[@BlowsTube]

@@RevShiftyI once got screamed at to “do my own research “ after I passed along an article that was explaining piece by piece how their latest conspiracy was utter nonsense. I’m thinking,isn’t that exactly what I’m doing right here??

[@fmailaender]

The Bill Gates conspiracy was immediately stoped in my family by my father. "The guys, who regularly fail to build a stable Operation System can do mind control? With a micromashine and a power supply that fits in a Needle? By the way, is your printer working right now .... see Microsoft."

[@rasputozen]

That's true. And it's also true that Bill Gates is pretty shady with what he's doing with GMOs and forcing farmers off their land in India.

[@michwashington]

😂BOOM 💥

[@kayc7442]

I have to constantly tell people the government is being overestimated in their technological capabilities and still have to rely on people to do the actual work. I blame all of these cheesey spy sitcoms😅

[@pavilionator]

Such a stupid and non-sensical point straw-manning legitimate concerns about Gates and the direct influence he holds. You know your head is not right when you find yourself defending billionaires…

[@EphemeralPseudonym]

like, these guys are literally just advanced primates like us lol They may be luckier, but that really doesn't mean they're somehow living in a higher reality

[@ultimapanzer]

This happened to my dad. He became convinced the COVID vaccine was "dangerous" and refused to take it. He got COVID during the Delta wave and passed away a little over 2 years ago, and I'm still trying to come to terms with all of it...

[@RevShifty]

I'm sorry for your loss, especially given the circumstances. I caught COVID during the Delta wave, and despite being at higher risk for complications (asthma), being vaccinated meant I was only sick for a couple days. I made sure my own father got vaccinated, but I'm sure him not being online and him being a former EMT both helped it happen.

[@advocacynaccountablity]

Deeply sorry for your loss, and the circumstances of it. Our lives change based on what we believe at any given time.

[@AnticitizenOne]

I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you can find peace soon.

[@ultimapanzer]

@@AnticitizenOne Thank you.

[@ultimapanzer]

@@RevShifty That’s what makes it even harder, I will obviously never know for sure, but I believe if he had been vaccinated he would’ve likely lived…

[@NotoriousEmu]

My father. He became convinced the covid tests had nanobots on them that would enter his brain. He started making comments about election interference as well as some anti-semitic rhetoric. He became angry. We have no relationship anymore and its been a massive source of depression for me. Especially this holiday season.

[@yarnpower]

That is so sad and is happening to lots of families. And the conspiracies don’t even make the believers happy, they just become more scared, anxious and angry. And they make their loved ones sad, worried and angry. So much damage just for grifters to make money! I have ‘lost’ 4 of my 5 adult siblings to conspiracy theories, as well as many nieces and nephews who don’t want to rock the boat with their parents. Regardless, I hope you find a way to have Happy Holidays! I have found that pie, feeding the birds and being in nature helps fill that family void. 😊

[@JeepCherokeeful]

Maybe you could research a little before calling him crazy?

[@christinabeck9316]

I lost my brother too. I want to hope but afraid it will never happen.

[@christinabeck9316]

@@JeepCherokeefulwho says we haven’t?

[@Chaosqueenngami]

​@JeepCherokeeful have you found any research that covid tests have nanobots in them?

[@kdietz65]

Me: "The sky is blue." My inlaws: "Sure, but what are they NOT telling us?"

[@andypandy-qz5om]

I hear you! These sceptical types are so frustrating. Don't your in-laws know that the msm and our governments are always the arbiters of truth and we can just put all our trust in them?

[@rabbitcreative]

Sometimes it's blue. Sometimes it's grey. Sometimes it brilliant red, gold, green, etc.

[@janewaysmom]

This is actually really helpful because what Naomi said about how loved ones with questions are gonna be looking for answers, and people with preexisting relationships with them are the best chance at getting them back out of the conspiracies? That's what happened with my mom. She was stuck at home with nothing to do and no income because she's a self employed stylist, and the few clients she was allowed to bring in during covid were starting to get in her ears about how the vaccines were actually bad. She talked with me and my sister about it, and she had questions. We were talking with her, answering questions and asking her questions too, and it helped her to logic through the conspiracy, so she didn't get very far into it before deciding she actually didn't think that was right. It was just really helpful to ask her questions and to talk with her, and then once things started opening back up, she did the same with her clients - talked with them about their conspiracies and told them she didn't think they were right and asked them questions and I think she helped them come back a little as well.

[@commonviewer2488]

Better to catch it early, talk it through before it becomes a major belief

[@janewaysmom]

@@commonviewer2488 I 100% agree. It's tough because sometimes people really do have good reason to be a little sketched out, like when covid happened, and that can make it hard to talk things through, but it absolutely is the best idea to try to talk it out early on.

[@jgreen9361]

Everyone has their own internal trap. The trap is the temptation to accept claims that validate what you already think or suspect to be true. The trap works better if you join a clan that is validating the same claims. Most people think they have a bigger proportion of “the knowledge” than they really do. On any topic there is a level of knowledge you need to reach before you appreciate how much you don’t know and how un equipped you are to invent answers.

[@KathrynTanner-t8f]

Great story. Engaging in real communication is the only way to ultimately defeat this weird phenomenon.

[@peterbyrne5004]

This is what too many people don't understand about conspiracy theories: they suck people in emotionally, not intellectually. Which is why your approach was exactly correct; you didn't just *tell* her she was wrong, you made her *feel* that she still had people who cared about her, even during such an isolating and scary time, and that those people she trusted were genuinely concerned for her, but also willing to listen to her. Of course even that doesn't always work, sadly, but I believe it's the best chance we have of pulling people back from the brink, and I'm really glad it worked out for you and your mom.

[@ronarnold1507]

I'm so happy that you got Ms. Klein on your show. Her books have been "must reads" for me, and her latest was so awesome.

[@jmnordman]

To anyone watching this, Doppelgänger is an EXCELLENT book that shines an entire star’s worth of light on the conspiratorial worldview through the eyes of someone steeped in it 24/7

[@chrisanderson6611]

Best comment! 🔥

[@brianhurd3355]

Speaking of things shining light, she's got all her indoor lights on throughout this entire sunny, open-windowed, midday interview. If that doesn't start a "Q sent me" subreddit I'll be very disappointed.

[@chrisanderson6611]

@@brianhurd3355 I think you're going to be disappointed.lol

[@geekdesprairies]

Thanks for your comment. Having two friends lost in the conspiracy rabbit hole, I'm seriously considering getting it.

[@WelfareChrist]

What a time warp! “No Logo” was the first real political nonfiction I ever read and I was probably 19. I remember getting so much out of that book intellectually that I ended up double majoring in Political Science & Philosophy.

[@SloMoMonday]

So many people in my family spiraled into conspiracy lunatics that I feared it's genetic. Watching intelligent, kind and successful people slowly loose themselves to grifters and misinformation is the same part depressing and infuriating.

[@davidwilkins5932]

It brings to mind the fragile nature of nearly everything we take for granted. Most everything we accept as normal and factual, is actually a fragile shell that all along has depended upon our mutual consent. Doesn’t really take much to fracture that shell, and fixing it can be very difficult. People have to WANT to make corrective shifts.

[@RedShiftGalaxy]

@@davidwilkins5932 That is in fact one 100% lunatic misinformational conspiracy theory.

[@RedShiftGalaxy]

Well, my friend, they fell as victims of so called mass hysteria, unlike You.

[@tinkletink1403]

if you trust big pharma you are delusional ...especially with medicine not fully tested

[@MarcSmith23]

These people say EXACTLY the same thing about you. Which means, only one of you can be actually correct.

[@Nick_CF]

I'm so glad she brought up Naomi Wolfe. I've read books from both Naomi Klein and Wolfe early on in my activist days. Recently I heard Naomi Wolfe is now a right wing grifter but my stupid brain latched onto Naomi Klein and felt so disappointed....then I realized the mix up lol. Damn Tulpas

[@adamt1543]

The only reason I know what a tulpa is is because of puss in Boots the animated series.😂

[@Nick_CF]

@@adamt1543 haha that's great. I was making a Twin Peaks reference 😂

[@Call-me-Al]

​@@adamt1543 what's a tulpa in this context? I only know about the meaning that it's an intentionally trained in hallucination/separate voice/personality as a kind of internal assistant or friend.

[@Dork_Rock]

@@Nick_CF DOP-PLE-GAN-GER

[@OpiatesAndTits]

@@Nick_CFSupernatural!

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

Our brain rewards us when we find a pattern that explains some aspect of reality. That is the engine that encourages us to understand. This is valid for normal learning and for the development of a conspiratorial interpretation. It is the same mechanism. The way to resolve this human weakness is to train people (from childhood) with the ability to discern probable hypotheses from improbable ones by using critical thinking. By contrasting each hypothesis against reality, using basic logic.

[@JonySmith-bb4gx]

Disagreed

[@danielmikula1375]

Partially. There's also the matter of popularity. If one person thinks that molemen are spying on them from their sinks they're a lunatic; if ten million people believe the same then how can ten million people be wrong?

[@beafraid5467]

Except reality is tangibke and variable.

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

@@JonySmith-bb4gx Arbitrarily?

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

@@danielmikula1375 If a million people for 100,000 years hypothesized that the sun revolves around our planet, it is enough for a single pair of parents of an infant to teach their child to think critically, for that person to be able to distinguish the correct hypothesis. It is true that humanity tends to consider true what the majority believes and that is a very good reason to think critically.

[@supramentalmanifestation]

Naomi Klien is so bright and grounded. I appreciate this interview. I had no idea Naomi Wolf went cookoo for coco puffs.

[@karankapoor2701]

You mean the same lady who praised Hugo Chavez

[@voland6846]

@@LilMonsterInc I find it strange you list some of the many incredible achievements of the Chavez government and yet still end it your point with "he won't be missed"... I think it's almost certain that he's very missed by the general population of Venezuela

[@BlanBonco]

I don't mind "cancel culture" but that's some serious blowback

[@jakelong6860]

Julie Green.

[@GregorPQ]

Naomi Klein did. You're welcome!

[@JamesMc2051]

I researched this years ago (through researching fringe beliefs generally via psychology). My conclusion put most of it down to technology. Years ago we didn't have the capability for fringe communities, spread around the (not flat) globe, to easily communicate and (very importantly) to try to attract new followers. They'd have met in back rooms and been walking around with sandwich boards or on Speaker's Corner and most people would give them a wide berth. Now they have a tool that does everything easier, where they can formulate it all together more convincingly to the layman than an in-person demonstration would bring, so it expands and expands, and starts to seep into everyday rhetoric. The other thing I noticed (in early internet days) is that most of these fringe belief communities were more separate than they are now. They've spent so long on the same message boards that they've all started absorbing from each other, so you get these mega conspiracies which borrow bits from everywhere. You'd think they'd all start fighting with each other over their own conspiracies but, instead, they seem to subconsciously feel some kinship on some level and absorb instead. And they go deeper and deeper by interacting with each other. I used to find most conspiracies far less dangerous than they are now. It used to be more cryptozoology and funny things, in the main. But those whose aim is to shift the Overton Window seem to taken over so now it's very often a far right thing. The most distressing one to me are the 'targeted individuals'. There's often a strong schizophrenia overlap there. I read the online journal of a woman who thought the government had chipped her, bugged her flat, had paid supermarket workers to laugh at her and all sorts of stuff. Why? Was she some influential writer or scientist? Nope. She was unemployed. It never seemed to occur to her that people might be acting weirdly with her because she was going around, paranoid about everything and treating every stranger with suspicion. And if anyone even tried to broach that then they'd immediately be considered ''in on it'' too. It's difficult to see how someone gets out of that sort of self-perpetuating belief. I've also read an eschatologist who predicted the end of the world four times inside two years. Each time he'd slink back and have a new date and details, reinvigorated after being crushed when the last prediction failed. I think people just want to have narratives for the conditions of their lives and feelings (and often mental illness). Alan Moore has a good quote about it all and how people want to believe in these hidden grand designs because the alternative - that we're often flying by the seat of our pants as a species - is scarier.

[@estefencosta1835]

Algorithms. People get funneled into these communities and deeper and deeper because the algorithms self-reinforce. It's a powerful tool by tech companies to keep us engaged on platforms even if it's harmful.

[@Ashleyyy414]

I'm 38. This was fascinating for me to watch. Essentially, I grew up on the internet. My fam had our first computer in like 99 or 2000. I was in my 9th grade classroom when 9/11 happened, and I still remember getting yelled at for not standing up to salute the flag in the weeks that followed. I was major left leaning nearly my whole life, but always conspiratorial towards the "top percenters." But at some point, I went from not trusting big pharma to becoming blantantly ignorant about science. I've always questionned EVERYTHING. Like, sometimes I'm jealous of people to this day that just breeze through life without ever thinking twice about anything. But I'd also rather die than be ignorant. In my mid 30's though, I somehow found myself with the right leaning conspiratorial nutters, especially when covid hit us. And its weird, because you kinda know how crazy you sound, but then you still look at the gen pop like they are sheep. I also think the liberal leftism from the early 2000's bred this in a way for some people, because we were already so untrusting of the government, the puppets behind it, etc. I could go on for hours, because I really did examine my life after I crawled out of the conspiracy world hole in 2021. Some stuff is embarrassing to say sometimes. But I'm thankful because I feel like I know how to get thru to these types people, who I used to be. Never lose empathy. A lot of it stems from extreme paranoia, distrust, feeling unworthy, self-isolation and a personality that can push people away. The worst thing to happen to the other Naomi in this video was probably being dropped by her publisher. A sure way to send certain personalities into a conspiratorial spiral is to make them feel unqualified, or drop them as if they no longer matter. People start searching for other ideas they can be accepted of. Every human wants to feel smart and qualified, and have meaning in life. Find meaning. THAT is what a lot of conspiracy theorists are looking for. To just understand life and why other humans do what they do. Sometimes, it's easier for some of us to believe someone is a blood drinking reptile than simply just being inheritently uncaring and "evil." Lbvs. 🙃 The best thing we can do is start talking to each other again and help with compassion.

[@moragslothe6449]

The people I used to "disagree with politically" still think we just "disagree"... when the things they drone on about are literally not happening. Sorry no, we don't "disagree", you live in a fantasy world of emotionally triggering buzzwords and conspiracy theories. It's sad how pathetic the people I used to respect have become. Or at least, finally shown themselves to have always been.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

That last line is the answer to the title of the video. Smart people DONT fall for conspiracy theories, we just perceived them as something they're not and don't want to admit they were a dumbass the entire time.

[@suicune2001]

Same. I had to drop a few friends because there is only so much lack of common sense and critical thinking skills I can stand.

[@rationalpear1816]

Reminds me of that Christopher hitched vid where he’s talking to some christian radio host who says I don’t want to be your enemy. Christopher. Respond. You are my enemy if you think the things you think, I will not agree to disagree with evil.

[@suicune2001]

@@rationalpear1816 Oh dang! O_O

[@jasongoddard819]

All of my conspiracy theorist "friends" have dropped me when I tried to use simple logic and reason to refute the ridiculous theories they try to push. No matter how you frame it, they will never accept that they fell for something so stupid that it doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. Worse yet, they cite "facts" that are anything but, and easily proven false. It makes me sad that people who I used to listen to and respect have fallen completely off of the deep end.

[@roxroxroxgrace]

Naomi makes such a great point: "The more formulaic we are -- as people, as artists, as creators of any kind -- the easier we are to make a doppelganger of us by AI, because AI uses formulas. You got to keep the machine guessing!"

[@Mr_Hassell]

This is very true. The more predictable you become they easier is for others to predict you.

[@hollydowns2279]

We often must hide what we truely believe to not hurt others

[@josiewagner8631]

I love the fact that every corporate algorithm has no clue how to market to me, I get ads for gold, for lightsabers, for survival bags, for diapers, for erection pills, for bras, for deals on shoes and purses and for writing home repair books to name a few: they keep trying though 😂

[@pauladuncanadams1750]

I block ads as much as possible.

[@frufrujaben]

Human intuition is driven by curiosity + imagination.

[@Deondre_Clark]

This is possibly the 10th interview from Naomi's book tour I've watched and I'm pretty sure I would watch at least 10 more. She has hit on something about our society that I'm not sure anyone else is talking about. She is always so insightful but I think Doppelganger is the best nonfiction work I've read in years

[@-Subtle-]

People have been talking about it quite a bit. There's a psychology term for it. It has to do with people who need big explanations for big events like JFK assassination, Moon Landing, etc. It's not cognitive dissonance. I read it on a great article about it but I can't remember the term. Edit: I found it! The Spectacular Explanation Fallacy

[@Deondre_Clark]

@-Subtle- genuine thank you for that comment. That's new information for me and I'll look it up. Sometimes YT comment sections can be awesome!

[@feedermonkey7233]

I've been thinking the same thing. Hope this reaches lots of people.

[@feedermonkey7233]

​@@-Subtle-I like your comment but I've found that theory problematic. But that's another story lol. We bought the audiobook and so far it's really good. I'm hoping more mainstream outlets interview her about this book and keep this conversation going. Like you, I find it compelling. ✌

[@BlowsTube]

@@feedermonkey7233You may also like Trust The Plan by Sommers. Gives a very illustrative view of Q and other conspiracies.

[@PossumMedic]

23:58 - "I think, she thinks birds are real!" 😂🤣 omfg that one got me!

[@OldLadyReacts]

It's interesting that the Pandemic was what created divides in families/friends. For my family, it happened much earlier than that when a close cousin became super Fundamentalist religious. It basically made it so we didn't want to spend holidays with them anymore. We used to all go to church together (Catholic) and then meet at home and snack and party. But after "they found Jesus", going to church somehow wasn't enough, it wasn't the right kind of prayer. They needed extra prayers and bible readings instead of eating appetizers. Now we have to hear about how god is intervening in every story well tell, when I'm just talking about how I made the ham. Santa is not OK and being excited about getting gifts is being too selfish. And the whole discussion about their kids not being vaccinated happened way before Covid.

[@aslurmyfrog]

In my late teens and early twenties I would have considered myself a conspiracy theorist. But as I got out into the world and got jobs in public service and in healthcare, I realized that the number of competent people needed to pull these things would rival large armies. Consequently they would also have the ecological and economic footprint of said Army. Hardly something one can keep hidden in the shadows forever. I figure at best, people are promoted to their level of incompetence, and we have something like mid-level Metropolitan bureaucracy.

[@karenshoffner203]

Yes! This is why I couldn't get into conspiracy theories. The logistics would be quite difficult to pull off.

[@3nertia]

Yes because rich people never get together and make plans ...

[@3nertia]

@@karenshoffner203 Difficult logistics? On what level? You realize billionaires have practically infinite resources, right?

[@granudisimo]

​@@3nertiaConspiracies and conspiracy theories aren't the same thing.

[@3nertia]

@@granudisimo Based on what? :)

[@dr.zoidberg8666]

Remember the old saying, folks: "Naomi Klein, you're doing fine. Naomi Wolf, what the fuck?"

[@MrPenetroso]

Thank you, Dr. Zoidberg.🦀

[@lomelindesama731]

Well clearly this show was needed, because when I saw this thumbnail, I immediately thought 'wait, why is he having her on this show, isn't she like a conspiracy nutjob?' and then of course, it all became clear and I was all 'oooooh, that's the *other* Naomi..... wait.'

[@psyberdelicxp6042]

It's hard for me to put into words the incredible burning hatred I have always had for social media. Since MySpace I only saw people being fake af.

[@shannon3315]

The part where you discuss the demand to make statements about political issues when you aren’t a political figure hit hard for me, because I have first hand experience of how that isn’t only about celebrities! When the BLM protests began in 2020 (which was also a time when all of us had been on lockdown for a few months), I was frequently on the Slack for a nerdy fandom convention - a convention which, of course, we had no idea when we might be back at in person at that time. I mainly used it for the Animal Crossing channel in order to schedule gaming time with others, but a friend alerted me that in the General Channel people were calling out everyone on the Slack that didn’t make a statement about Black Lives Matter. None of these people were celebrities or influencers, and the demand wasn’t “you should make a public statement” but rather just make a statement there on that private Slack. But in spite of the fact that the demand was in private, some people were called out publicly on Twitter for this. It was nuts. And it was frustrating that there were actual things that could have been done - like saying “oh hey here’s what I’m doing for BLM in my town, here’s how you can help” but all the energy went into demanding statements that were ultimately completely meaningless.

[@bolillo5013]

I hadn’t heard her speak before, but Naomi is so eloquent. Will definitely have to read some of her work now. Also, her room is beautiful lol.

[@AlexDaeling]

i went a little crazy way back in 2020 and it kinda left me a little messed up through 2022. but thankfully i got myself out of it

[@advocacynaccountablity]

How did you emerge with a more stable understanding? What helped you?

[@AlexDaeling]

@@advocacynaccountablity I realized anger was just an expression of frustration or being uncomfortable. So I gave up the anger

[@AlexDaeling]

@@advocacynaccountablity obviously not as simple as giving up the anger, the initial confrontation with the idea is rough. But eventually that's the idea

[@-Subtle-]

Welcome back.

[@AVspectre]

It’s not always an easy path. Welcome back to this side of the mirror.

[@samanthanewport6709]

Oh hell yes. Just finished Doppelganger. Naomi Klein has a gift for framing big important ideas in an approachable way

[@nicholasmorava1830]

Not “framing”. That’s called pushing a narrative onto ignorant people.

[@marocat4749]

@@nicholasmorava1830 Its still framing, framinfg for the people who need to get the basic basics, whic his fair, yeah thats framing still. I mean you cant tell everyone to watch serial experimental lain and they get the dpth people can get lost in.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

I have an older brother I had to cut ties with during the pandemic because he got real deep into conspiracy theories. I used to roam around forums and youtube channels that escalated the spreading of the same theories (replacement theory, pizza gate, and such) so that last interaction with him violently snapped me out of it. I have never tried contacting him since, he has always had a violent streak about him and he is known to get into altercations over mere disagreements, for example he initiated a fist fight with my little brother over an argument about Donald Trump, so the thought of being in the same room with him honestly terrifies me. He has never been one for self-reflection, so I think he is a lost cause, especially since he moved to Alberta to be near his partner's conservative family.

[@helpanimals-]

Alberta really sucks. I'm sorry he moved there. Alberta has a terrible minister

[@peterbyrne5004]

Sorry about your brother, and as an Albertan myself, I feel your pain. Obviously there are good people here, as there are everywhere, but you're not wrong - Alberta is like an experiment to see what nearly a century's worth of steady propaganda from right-wing-controlled media and government can do to a province, and the results are deeply depressing.

[@parkedawn]

I swear you're describing my brother. 😬

[@Chris_Patton]

Sounds like you come from a family of narcissists

[@youtux2]

12:22 Conspiracy culture gets the facts wrong but the feelings right. Brilliant!

[@xxcatfishjohnnyxx]

Holy s*** I thought Naomi Klein had lost her damn mind. So glad I watched this interview to realize that the author of one of my favorite books is still sane. Currently listening to Doppelganger shaking my head realizing I'd fallen into the Wolf trap.

[@kokopelli314]

Wolf on bbc: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5W1eIKLrtpqY80si=DbCn4gmxhaD800Tc

[@chrisguerra9631]

A lot of people are confusing her with Naomi Wolf. Klein has never been a crazy

[@JeepCherokeeful]

@@chrisguerra9631just unwilling to educate herself...I watch this content to better understand life, human nature, why people make decisions they do.

[@areaunderthecurve9918]

Klein lives in an establishment bubble.

[@robkirchhof133]

maybe check out some of her books, ​@@areaunderthecurve9918, or check out other interviews she's done. She doesn't let other people tell her how to think, i think.

[@jean-micheldupuis9466]

Upvoted for your tshirt, grabbing a beer, no brand nacho chips and leaning in on my secondhand couch to listen to this. Stoned. Life is good.

[@AVspectre]

Hope you had a great listen 😊

[@pipster1891]

If you think life is good, you must be stoned.

[@star2705]

I just. Love. When Adam uses texture words to explain the way you feel about non-tangible things. It is so good. I feel it. Deeply.

[@ryang790]

What u mean is, he's progressed from being stumped, when managing just ERR and UMM 77 times when he embarrassed himself when he went on Rogan hehe.

[@fromage_collage]

The problem: People believe that because they have an opinion, that it’s valid, informed, and must be respected. Wrong. The most anyone would owe is to acknowledge another’s opinion. Doesn’t mean it’s has to be considered good or respectable, or informed.

[@KipIngram]

"Who the hell cares?" - EXACTLY. That's how I feel about most things. I spend a lot of time thinking about why I feel the way I feel, and do my best to come to a good set of values. And then I try act on those, and others can just take me or leave me. I'm not going to blindly follow a mob. *I* know why I am the way I am, and that's enough for me.

[@sleepingkirby]

"You've probably had this happen to someone around you...someone who seemed sane...suddenly lost their mind and went down a rabbit hole..." Nope... Everyone around me that "seemed sane" and then "suddenly went down a rabbit hole", I've always been like "that person is more interested in their own self interests than the observable world. If given half the opportunity, they would rather believe what they want to believe than the observable truth right in front of them."

[@CliffSedge-nu5fv]

It's understandable. Reality sucks. It's not surprising that so many people permanently escaped to a fantasy world. The truth hurts them so much, any fiction will be embraced to avoid contact with the real world.

[@JerryCheevers]

truth is not so simple, are very rarely "observable"

[@sleepingkirby]

​@@JerryCheevers So your response to "people not believing the observable truth right in front of them" is "that's not observable proof"? I think I found the flat earther...

[@Kevin-sy3jt]

Yes, I have noticed the same thing. Usually, there are signs - fundamental flaws - in their epistemology that predict their apparent descent to insanity.

[@Merrybandoruffians]

Omg, I’m so excited to see Naomi Klein on the pod this week. I actually had the opportunity to read a few of her books and meet her when I was in college back in like 2015. She’s cool af in real life and always spot on with her sociocultural/political analysis.

[@Ericaaaaaaaaaa]

A moment of appreciation for Adam's "Protect Trans Kids" shirt! 🏳️‍⚧️

[@cedrickulacz8468]

I wouldn't have put together that's what the shirt says until you pointed it out. Yes, shout out to the "protect trans kids" shirt.

[@nicholasmorava1830]

Ya. I appreciate having those kind of shirts to use as work rags. Or to wipe my muddy shoes off when I walk into my house. I have an actual USE for it. I’d wear a shirt saying protect children. Narrow minded people need to make common sense “common”. But then again, u can’t have common sense without making any sense.

[@toastiesburned9929]

I think it's ironic and sad that protecting kids that AREN'T being targeted is ok, but protecting a child in literal life or death danger isn't barely worth the mud on his shoes 😢

[@nicholasmorava1830]

@@toastiesburned9929 I did not say step on a child!!! I also said I’d wear a shirt that said protect ALL children. Man. Amazing how u people lie and twist words. Maybe the words I used are incomprehensible to you. Oh ya. Google incomprehensible. It’s a big word. Educate your self and don’t lie and dont twist the narrative. Have some dialogue. Oh ya. Look up dialogue. It’s different than debating. Common sense is no longer common any more. What a shame.

[@Georgedunkin7473]

@@nicholasmorava1830 he didn’t twist your words. You just got called out for being a douche. Now your backpedaling.

[@dinarocksyou]

Really loved this, but rolled my eyes at the "if you don't want to go to the office your workplace must be toxic" sentiment. There are lots of people who prefer working remotely for lots of reasons, including disability, difficult commutes, living in areas without lots of jobs, etc.

[@Positron49]

This is largely generational. I grew up hanging out out with my friends over XboxLive and AIM. It is not hard for us to build and maintain relationships remotely, nor to coordinate projects online. It’s the generation that didn’t grow up this way that needs people physically present to feel they are connected.

[@juliadixon8465]

Interesting. I'm first year GenX, and absolutely need people nearby to feel anything for them at all.

[@JerryCheevers]

@@Positron49 its not generational, thats closed minded.

[@mikezooper]

I think it’s when people who had bad experiences or authority as a child, distrust anything authority figures say. They have a huge distrust. This is the root cause in my experience.

[@pwesiti]

Quitting social media was the smartest decision I’ve ever made.

[@CharleneCTX]

KZbin is social media.

[@JeepCherokeeful]

Ignorance is bliss, as they say

[@oneeyejack2]

I think some people, because of their pride, lack the ability to accept they made a mistake, or they believed something wrong...Appearing to others as right or wrong is more important for them than actually being right or wrong. Some evil people use this to manipulate (using false associations) them into believing more and more wrong things (for self gratification).. and because they don't accept their mistake, their rejection response is to convince more people in the same way.... It's all about preserving the ego when your wrong, by rejecting reality and convincing others... At the core, there must be a bad way of selecting beliefs : choosing the opinion by following and believing others, instead of just looking at reality and coherence. They view the world of knowledge as a network of trust and popularity (for them knowledge is judged by popularity) instead of ideas being confronted to reality.. so instead of being wrong, internet allow them to create networks of self reassuring believers..

[@Sarah-re7cg]

I’d like to add to this with 2 observations: 1. Right wingers fall into authoritarianism. Authoritarians’ power is built on a house of cards, so if they’re wrong, that threatens their power so they have to double down. A core part of being a political strong man is that “might is right” so being right isn’t about actually being right, it’s about who can double down more. 2. I totally get the impulse of not wanting to be wrong not necessarily for the reasons I stated above, but because it can really be earth shattering to your sense of self. Like it can really have you second guessing yourself and your judgement, which is a really scary place to be, which is why we need to (in my opinion) have a huge focus on mental healthcare access and affordability so people can learn healthy coping mechanisms for handling being wrong and processing it in a much more safe and productive manner.

[@-Subtle-]

One of the hallmarks of intelligence is recognizing and admitting when you're wrong then discarding the incorrect information.

[@bcasarotto]

Shame is a very powerful force. One of the things about conspiracy theorists is the sense of superiority they feel over other people. They feel like their "privileged information" about the secret machinations of our reality makes them special, a cut above sheeple. If admitting you were wrong about something is hard, admitting you were wrong about being smug and treating the people who were right all along like idiots is absolutely devastating. It's easier to just double down on your take and make that belief your core identity from now on.

[@rationalpear1816]

What you are describing is brand protection. People are in large part brands (aka reputations). They can’t be seen to “lose face” in face to face interactions or their reputation would suffer. People do not change other people’s minds. People change their own minds quietly and in private. All we can do is plant a seed of cognitive dissonance here or there, and hope for the best.

[@Sarah-re7cg]

@@rationalpear1816 “people change their minds quietly” facts! And some people don’t have the tools to address whatever cognitive biases they have and properly process what it means to be wrong and how it’s okay to be wrong (and if they need help with bouncing back from suffering a blow to their self esteem)

[@RedMei126]

I love Naomi Klein! Glad you booked her for an interview

[@shelby477]

Losing a couple of close friends to things like Qanon really hurt. But when i looked at it rationally, i realized that these people were people that hadn't always been easy to get along with our entire friendship. Things that involved character deficits like just not being completely trustworthy. Or showing really bad judgement in their lives. These people were childhood or decades long friends, which i why i kept them in my life too long. Other people who went whack were closer than just acquaintances but not quite close friends, were people i had already decided to keep a distance from just from red flags I'd noticed over time. My point is that i bet most people who fall for this stuff already had things that those close to them, if they are honest, had to put up with. Nobody i know who is basically a nice person who is trustworthy, has good boundaries and shows empathy has gone conspiracy.

[@shelby477]

@@MrMichiel1983 Yeah, I'm not sure my thought that certain traits make it more likely you get behind certain ideas ideas is actually true, it's just what i noticed in my situations. I'll use the closest friend it happened with as an example. Going back to high school, over 50 years ago, haha, she once stopped talking to me for months with no explanation. Okay fine, i mean high school, we're young and immature. But later i put it together that i had been dating a black guy, one of 3 at our school. At some point i stopped seeing him and all was fine. I truly just didn't connect the 2 and she offered no explanation. After high school i needed a roommate, she wanted to move in if i replaced the old carpet in the bedroom. I had exactly enough money to do that, or pay the next months rent. She knew that. I replaced the carpet. But she didn't move in and i was screwed money wise. A decade later my mom was berating me over something and mentioned this friend agreed with her. My mother was not good to me and i wrote it off to my mom said all kinds of mean things when she got in her moods. But years later i put it together that she had been trashing me with my mom for years. Over the years my friend didn't gossip to me much but stories came out that she caused some real problems with gossip on our friend group. Over the decades, there were many other things. Nothing big enough for me to say no to being her friend because i loved her and really enjoyed her company. But then politics started really getting in the way. We had always been left versus right, but only had fun and spirited discussions. Nothing nasty. But with Trump it got nasty on her end. And yes, i tried to appeal to her reason, social empathy etc. She just couldn't see it. We both had a common friend from school that wrote a pretty famous book that caused Fox to have heart attacks for a few weeks. My friend knew this woman, knew her heart, but she just couldn't forgive our common friend for the "damage done" with her book. Finally a few years ago my friend "accidently" sent me a ext meant for someone else. It was mean and condescending regarding me and my views. When i wouldn't accept her explanation of being so sad and frustrated with me not liking Trump AND my marching in women's and BLM events, she unfriended me. But i was done also as she was the only one left in my life that causing such stupid drama. Yes this is a long answer. But she was a very close friend and the whole thing is the most hurtful and frustrating of the people that got into the maga thing. There were many other things with her over the years but they all didn't hit me until the the unfriending thing. The fact is i extended far too much empathy for far too long. I should have seen the red flags and distanced myself 40 years ago. As I did that with others as i grew up as realized it when i saw unhealthy behavior.

[@DR-hy6is]

@@MrMichiel1983 How can one empathize with a worldview based on a false sense of victimhood? Poor oppressed White Christian minority....(this is what they believe they are)...how many seats in Congress are held by White Christians? Oh, they're so oppressed. Why would I try to view the world through a crazy person's glasses? How can you even have a conversation with a person too deluded to understand what I am getting at? People who lack self-awareness to that extent? Too far gone.

[@danielsykes7558]

15:20 honestly, I'm a little young, but this is probably the same thing the media did about Sªddám Hūssein. The 24-hr news cycle meant there was constant pressure to explain everything. The intelligence community and several reporters even at mainstream outlets were skeptical of the existing evidence, but the paranoid, bellicose, and insecure Bush-Cheney administration had the first story. They told a story full of obfuscation and ignorance, and bewitched the public. The slow rollout of investigation didn't have time to tell the public the truth before the country had already been swept away

[@NotACat2237]

I very much think it depends on what you are returning to in the office. My coworkers were fine, but they were not people that I would chose to hang out with for 70% of my life. I saw them more than my own family. I think that was kind of the back lash there. You had a culture you didn't like be forced on you by A type managers. The culture of offices has to change. People are looking for a slower life again and getting tired of the hassle that gets you nowhere. People are tired of being understaffed. We get told stress is bad as it's forced apon us. Flexibility is the answer. No more nanny state corporate deadline or we all die mentality. Letting people work from a beach or coffee shop. People also learning how to find their own connections again instead of the default whatever your job is. 3rd spaces. Places to hang out and meet new people.

[@dziooooo]

I can't imagine returning to the office now, because WFH has improved my quality of life SO MUCH. it's not just the commute, for me the biggest issue is that at the office I can't disconnect and refocus. I have to be at my desk, attempting to do the work, even if I'm momentarily distracted or tired. I have to just keep pushing, and I spend 2h doing 20min of actual work. It's such a pointless, stupid waste of time and energy. At home I'll just get up, do the dishes, read a chapter of a fun book, play with the cats, start prep for dinner. And then I sit back down, and I can REALLY focus and be productive. I feel less tired and frustrated, because I'm not trying to force myself to do work at those times when work is just Not Going To Happen. I'm not giving this up, my boss knows that if they tell me to work from the office, the first thing I'll do is print out my resignation letter on the company printer and GTFO.

[@NotACat2237]

@dziooooo Yup! Me staring at my computer screen is not going to magically make my brain work better. Being able to walk away for a few minutes and do something else is scientifically proven to help. I think a lot of people would be helped with their loneliness with working from home if they did have the freedom to work from where they want and understand they are now responsible for their relationships and community. Using your coworkers to substitute for having friends was never that healthy. Imagine you and your friends all getting together to work in the same house together, even though you have different jobs. Or the same group of people working at a coffee shop every day together and getting to know each other. Being able to work outside and touch grass. Instead of"crap people are lonely, let's all go back to our offices," we start working on learning how to make community again. 3rd places and letting people work from wherever they want to. As long as people are getting their work done. Past that it's just about control.

[@thatcutenerdgirl6090]

So happy to learn that this wonderful human is not only also Canadian but is also in the same city as me! I could run into her on the street tomorrow. It's always nice to know that someone so excellent is not that far away from me.

[@thatcutenerdgirl6090]

So funny. I hadn't watched til the end of the podcast when I wrote that but then he mentions running into her in person. My roommate is literally studying climate sciences at UBC (different department than Ms. Klein, but still) and I was like, you should keep an eye out for her. I want to meeeeeet heeeeerrrrrrr.

[@charlatantric]

On people and their doppelgangers, I ran into this one guy and asked if anyone had compared him to Bret Weinstein. Same goatee and goofy mushroom haircut. He'd never heard of him before, but his friends looked him up on their phones and started cracking up. Then they started reading about him. The dude looked broken. The next time I saw him, he had a new haircut.

[@charleselmore4707]

This interview literally made me go download her book, Doppelgänger, not just based on how likable and smart a presence she is here, but on how powerful her ideas are about modern life and the technology that pervades it.

[@johnoestmannmusic]

I agree with most of what Naomi and Adam are saying, but you need to be really careful in how you have pick a specific person and laugh about them. These are humans too, often smart, often with very good intentions, often worried about legitimate upstream fears. Disagreeing with her is fine, but making Naomi Wolf an example and laughing about her is the exact kind of thing that is driving polarisation.

[@smallpseudonym2844]

"Pick a person"... Uh... Klein didn't get to "pick". She was dealing with the blowback that Wolfe had created. I'm sure she would have _loved_ not to have had to deal with all that.

[@djdollase]

I listened to the audiobook of “Doppelgänger” and found it amazingly good. She really nails the confused and antagonistic social and intellectual climate of the last few years, explaining it all better than anyone I’ve read or heard.

[@deadmen223]

We are doomed.

[@jrojala]

I remember noticing some pretty conspiratorial stuff when reviewing Naomi Wolf’s maternity/childbirth book in the early 2000’s -obviously she’s been priming for this for decades. I recall a lot of vaccine conspiracies floating around the natural birth community at the time- she was likely influenced by that.

[@mk1st]

There’s an interesting intersection of right and left world views in this space.

[@theepitomeofrad]

​@@mk1stI find it weird that the new right is vacuuming up the woo woo new agers and naturalistic folks lately. I think the hippy left is disappearing. Perhaps because those that are anti-establishment reflexively have found a new home with a party that is 100% conspiracy theories all of the time.

[@erinmccreery9781]

As an identical twin and a very average person who people often ask me where they have met me before (despite having never met or related to whoever they have in mind). I find it interesting other people get upset when compared to others. I do think it can be hard to not have your own identity, but I suppose I'm just used to it.

[@melanieahrens6739]

I bet your twin isn’t espousing ideas that horrify you to an audience of millions.

[@aquietdragon5671]

i usually can't stand podcasts but somehow this conversation gave me hope which until now, i've told my therapist is a dirty word

[@matthewg7228]

The thing that makes conspiracy theories dangerous is that everyone assumes that they wouldn't fall for a fake conspiracy theory combined with the fact that every once and a while a conspiracy theory ends up being true.

[@DavidRichardson153]

I had a doppelganger during my high school days. I kept getting tagged as having been absent or tardy, even though classmates and teachers vouched that I was neither. This went on for months before I finally demanded that the school administration find out who I kept getting mixed up with. My case went further than Naomi Klein's. My doppelganger turned out to have the same name I did - first and last names. If not for my doppelganger having a different middle name, this might have kept up for much longer. Thankfully, the mix-up was rectified, but it was extremely irritating having to go through that. This all happened in the days of MySpace, so I cannot say if not having social media helped or harmed my case. However, given that it never went past high school, I lean towards the former. Still, it made it quite clear that I - and really, _EVERYBODY_ - should always double-check to see if anything associated with or credited to someone is actually the case, and that has only gotten even more important since the rise of social media.

[@francisnopantses1108]

I looked like someone who was known around town to feed feral cats (and also trap them to take in to get fixed). Awwwkward. And yes we've met although we're not close.

[@chaueter1041]

I have been reading her book, it’s brilliant, funny, entertaining, and certainly insightful.

[@MrCOLBSTAH]

It is so fascinating to me that it actually like changed people's views of who they were?. Once I put social media down specifically tick tock... I felt a million times better and haven't gone back to it since.

[@Call-me-Al]

I kind of feel like if I started using tiktok I would feel great, but also use it too often: I'm the kind of person who would follow animal channels only. A bunch of years ago before instagram got too shitty without an account, i had a whole bunch of pet accounts bookmarked! It's like the only kind of parasocial relationship I indulge in - to pets that don't even know their fans exist 😂

[@MrCOLBSTAH]

@@Call-me-Al well, same here. I only joined for like certain communities. But then it occasionally gave me something really big that happened in the world like the train derailment in Ohio, or just other things like legislation passing policies that I really don't agree with, It would just throw things in there like that and then I would get mad and have to reply, or things like that? It just gets you angrier and angrier. Although if you are stuck entirely on one side of it and never engage at all with any kind of political content than I'm sure you would be okay but... I'd say for that. Maybe just stick with Reddit. There's plenty of forums on there about animals and all sorts of stuff.

[@marocat4749]

I mean, who people are and who they think they are is a lot influenced by environments, and internet enviroments are as real in that regard, Ots not only that , just especually cults and grifters and conspiracy theorists, get gradually a cult the more in, like a cult, onlie cultrs are slightly different but also as bad. Not everything is a cult, but yeah people change idintities and discover and that, and that can be exploited by like grifters too. People identities is everchanging and complex.

[@marocat4749]

Also people very much do get a different view on who they were naturally, thats normal for growing as person and never stopping learning. I think fair awareness that not forget, yeah you were an annoying teenager too probably, is good. People changing views via growth, is good. Just like anything that can be hacked by culty tactics :(

[@francisnopantses1108]

Me too. Just straight up toxicity from coworkers on Facebook. I couldn't look at them the same way again.

[@raincadeify]

Vertiginous: relating to or affected by vertigo. Thank you, Naomi. I always feel smarter after hearing you talk. 💝

[@JillRhoads]

@41:04 "For me writing it too hard to do that (using the same successful formula for each and every book). If I'm not in a process of discovery, I will just watch television." VERY well said!

[@ekzrated]

Naomi Klein is one of my favorite people being interviewed to listen to. I’m so glad you had her on.

[@mothmansuperfan7513]

Thank you for the interview! Naomi Klein is brilliant. I loved her interview on QAnon Anonymous

[@maeveHeyoka]

Ohhhhh I haven’t seen that yet. Was it recent?

[@jamielockdown]

She's really doing the rounds on my podcast feed lol.

[@strongbadman2]

Automatic Teller Machine machine

[@mothmansuperfan7513]

​@@strongbadman2 I think it's a play on "Alcoholics Anonymous", but is about how QAnon is a malicious force etc

[@AVspectre]

@@strongbadman2?

[@darladarlading]

Naomi Klein is amazing! Thanks Adam, very enlightening interview

[@hjf3022]

That's hilarious. When you first introduced Naomi Klein, my immediate reaction was "that name is familiar, is he interviewing that conspiracy theorist? Wait, no that's a different Naomi" 😂

[@rebusd]

Basically, anything of any real relation to what is really happening economically, is unreported. People in power collude all the time. I try to focus on what I can do for my family and myself. End of story.

[@schitzoflink8612]

Fun fact KZbin served me up a starting ad for "Alpha Brain" by good ol Joey Rogaine. I didn't know they had added in irony to the algorithm...

[@ericb.4313]

I've been getting that ad a lot as well and rule of thumb, if Joe Rogan is endorsing a product especially pills, I run in the opposite direction. The guy is a self-admitted dumbass and often brings in the worst guests who only end up enabling him with like 3 people total who'd disagree with him (Bernie Sanders, Adam, and Cornel West). Seriously half the shorts I see from his guests are Pyramid truthers and Elon Musk.

[@RevShifty]

If my intellectual baseline was ever so low that I started looking up to Joe Rogan, I'd probably just cash my own chips in at that point. He's a total moron, and him occasionally acknowledging that fact is literally his only redeeming quality.

[@-Subtle-]

Absolutely! I was watching a socialist channel and the ad was from the Epoch Times, a Conspiracy Theory website that even some conspiracy theorists think is nuts.

[@christophergreen6595]

I find it fascinating that i have no way to know which are even real Rogan ads anymore.

[@Red-in-Green]

One of the weird things I experience with online identity is a divorcing of it from the person it belongs to, but treating both as people. I have a friend we’ll call Joe, who goes by Grape online. In my brain, Joe and Grape are Different People. Both are my friends, both are people, but there is some part of me that isn’t processing them as connected.

[@Felinius]

I work with some people that are deep down conspiracy rabbit holes, and I’m at a point where when they try to engage with me, I just try to invent even more off the rails conspiracies.

[@LunaticFringe010]

and then what happens? finish the story!

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

At 36:34 Our responsibility is not to post on social media, it's to participate in politics by voting, going to meetings, writing to representatives, commenting on the EIS being issued by a government agency, etc.etc. Or of course, writing books that actually make a coherent argument. Posting on social media is just easier. I love all of Naomi Klein's books, but listening to you talk I realize you experience the social universe completely differently than those of us who just have jobs and don't spend much time on social media.

[@s.s.8029]

Thank you for this! My social circle got a lot smaller because of COVID and everything that has happened since then. It brought out the best and worst in people. It was the final nail in the coffin of my relationship with my in-laws (largely due to their crazy thoughts on the pandemic/election/ vaccines, etc.). It has been freeing knowing that I don't have to make a "press release" as to my thoughts on things and why I do what I do. There was a conspiracy theory going around our school district that there were litter boxes in the bathrooms at the schools for "furries." I just heard it again this past summer and I can tell you for sure that there are no litter boxes in the bathrooms! The worst place for lack of understanding and empathy was in the church, the one place we should have been able to feel safe and understood. My now deceased fil was a conspiracy theorist and after he passed, one of his daughters took over that role and shares the craziness of my husband. My husband even went so far as to say that his mom had information that half of those vaccinated will be dead in 30 years because it was part of the master plan to decrease the world's population! I would have fallen for these things in the past, but I am so glad that I wizened up and can see things more clearly now! I grew a lot because of the events of the past few years and I am grateful for that!

[@marcusaurelius49]

I wish I could say I have come to a place where I can empathize with old friends and acquaintances who fell into conspiracies during covid, but I cannot. I still fight for the truth and cannot put up with the flow of BS that flows from their broken brains. I hope to be better, but we live in dangerous times and it feels more important to fight the BS than to coddle the crazy.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

I'd say you've mistaken empathy for sympathy.

[@suzannecarter445]

Just to clarify what I think you mean - Empathy is about sharing and understanding the emotions of others, while sympathy is about acknowledging and feeling sorry for someone's situation without necessarily sharing their emotions. Empathy can lead to a deeper, more personal connection because it involves experiencing emotions alongside the person. Sympathy, while compassionate, maintains more emotional distance. Is this what you intended?@@dontmisunderstand6041

[@brianadlich4406]

I find myself getting hostile to a few of my friends when they opine on everything.

[@RevShifty]

@@brianadlich4406 I'm not only hostile to people like that, but often even aggressively so. If they learn nothing else, and they usually don't, they learn to keep that nonsense to themselves around me. That's still a win in my book.

[@christophergreen6595]

Yeah. Like... I left my job, lost 6 years of union seniority, because my place was so pilled they were rejecting masks from day zero. My folks are in their seventies and could easily have died from Covid. I'm back there now... but I have no love and very little tolerance in my heart for these people's bullshlt.

[@redblitzridden9021]

Anybody who wants to know the exploitive traits of Capitalism should also read her book "The Shock Doctrine". Glad to see Naomi being interviewed. Definitely listen to her, she knows!!

[@sd-ch2cq]

Adam trying to end with "where can we find you on twitter" is really 👌

[@haliburley4153]

I happen to be reading Doppelganger right now. I am a native of SF, Ca. I went to high school with Ms. Wolf. My brain pops with every page of your book. I was already your fan, but now I am obsessed with you. I just happened to see this video. You are wicked smart and still on this side of the mirror, lucky for us. Please continue your spot on analysis of this weird world.

[@truthisfree7297]

My 2 cents after a lifetime of working with people all over the world: I think that it is easy to see (or even hope) that their is some great conspiracy to explain what a mess humanity is overall. Our species has so many contradictions that it is nearly impossible not to lean into the belief that someone is working for a secret agenda that undermines our progress. And in point of fact, there is a kernel of truth in many of the "theories" that helps give them credibility. For instance, it is easy to spread rumors like the Covid anti-vac movement because drug companies don't have the interest of consumers at heart. They would rush a drug to market to make money, even if there were unnecessary risks. Politicians are more likely to be working for companies/lobbyists who fund them than the people who they are supposed to represent. Religious leaders are often just money-seeking grifters. etc, etc, etc. With all this deception and confusion, I think our minds scramble for some sort of rationalization to make sense of the chaos.

[@andiralosh2173]

As a fan of Naomi Klein, who even saw her speak in person, I must admit after losing track I had and OH SHIT moment mistaking her for her doppelganger, who admittedly I knew nothing about. Immediately I looked up and corrected myself. Great talk and I love the emphasis on organizing praxis 🙌 stay rad

[@rachaelhorning8354]

You should’ve read more than the 1st chapter before interviewing her because there’s SOOOOOO much more in this book 🖤

[@kimshanna]

That really surprised me that he supplied that. How hard is it to read the book of the person you're going to interview? I'm sure she was taken aback a bit.

[@umjackd]

One close family member went down the covid vaccine rabbit hole, and it was made worse that they tended to double down when challenged, and works in a research field. I've known quite a few academics who, despite not having medical science expertise, still think that their expertise in a different field makes them smart enough to warrant vaccine skepticism. It's sad since all it really is, is fear and finding justifications for that fear. No matter how many degrees you have, you're still human and suffer from human fears. As was mentioned, the feelings are legitimate, even if the reasons aren't, but it's hard to find a path to that.

[@areaunderthecurve9918]

We should all be skeptical of US institutions. We live in a oligarchy. Corruption at every level.

[@paulmoulton7248]

Since truth is subjective, I prefer to base my narrative choice on meta information. Who is trying to control? Who is telling you the other is bad? Who is demonstrating compassion for their opponent? Who can argue from both sides? Is there a pattern of deceit in the narrative?

[@ChrisEstey]

"Write about a hurricane from inside the eye" - this episode deserves some kind of award. Stoked by so much cascading critical thinking, stark yet fun analysis of some very tumultuous culture changes. You two are a blast together!

[@antondovydaitis2261]

Disaster Capitalism was the first historical analysis I've read that not merely made sense of the previous half century, but helped me understand events as they happened. You really did dramatically reduce comprehension lag time. Thank you very much. One issue for me is that there really have been numerous conspiracies that turned out to be true, and many likely remain to be uncovered.

[@Inanedata]

Check out the war on public education by the ADF for example.

[@antondovydaitis2261]

@@Inanedata THOSE bastards, eh? There are too many attacking civilization to keep track of them all. Sigh.

[@kyle1910]

I like much of this but I need to push back about people getting back in the office and everyone needing to be face to face. For some I'm sure that's true and I'm not here to deny that. I just want us to not erase the experiences of people who are, for one, perfectly OK with their jobs but prefer working from home to having to go to an office.

[@Datamining101]

Naomi Wolf's death sentence thing wasn't even nearly the first "fact" that she got wrong in her books, going all the way back to the 90s. She's never shown any desire to look too deeply at the reality of the numbers she's throwing out there.

[@salishseamermaid]

My ex husband, a highly intelligent and accomplished person, has always liked to feel that he's the smartest person in the room, and fringe theories fed that need to know "more" than the rest of us. It started with listening to local talk radio in the 1990s, which led him to Rush Limbaugh, which led him to Alex Jones, which led him deep into KZbin.

[@clarkpalace]

If he’s my doctor could you tip me off?

[@salishseamermaid]

@@clarkpalace he's not, but he might have engineered a plane you ride in😂 (And you'd be safe)

[@clarkpalace]

@@salishseamermaid thks mermaid!

[@tinomccormick21o]

Nice content. I've always felt compelled to pursue the greatest interests of mankind, to wit. A way to be influential, powerful and protected. always felt the need to be recognized wherever i go, not because i am proud or clamorous but because of who i am and what i represent. The inner me is gasping to find out more knowledge about the human race and about the things that not everyone is destined to know. I wish to blossom into the enlightenment that our forebears wanted so desperately for us to gain.

[@bartholetbay412]

well i think your feeling is kinda understandable, it's really just you been human. If you really seek enlightenment you can achieve that and so much more by joining the Illuminatus. I know it sounds mythical, but there are ways you can actually get in

[@tinomccormick21o]

Oh yeah? is it even possible to join? i always thought it's meant for certain people in the upper class.

[@bartholetbay412]

yeah that's intentional, i mean that's what they want you to think. if you need to get more enlightened on the subject, look up Anthony Rogers Szymon. Will help you get more clarity and answers.

[@tinomccormick21o]

That's great. Thanks so much for the reference, I just looked him up and left him a message already.

[@arizonashopper5095]

Read the book E-squared. It made me realize that we are just beginning to realize / scientifically prove that we have barely dipped put toes into the field of quantum physics, and how it can directly affect our day-to-day reality. The author says that its something our grandchildren's grandchildren will know to be fact, but we are still struggling to define.

[@stephen-wahl]

Yeah I hate to say for the longest time decades ago I thought your guest had written the Beauty Myth. However Naomi Klein, rest assured that there is no confusion especially as how that other Naomi turned out lol😂 Consumed the shock doctrine and I still have This Changes Everything as a book to read on my bookshelf. Please write more after you're done with her.

[@bherrin67]

Great conversation, thank you!! As someone who has lost family members to crazy conspiracy theories, this was very useful. ☮️❤️🌈👍🏻

[@christinabeck9316]

I believe that the other, equal, part of the recipe is the fear instilled which causes uncertainty. These conspiracy theories give them a sense of control over their scary, unstable world. They also like feeling like they are privy to special information. It allows them to feel oddly superior.

[@Baraz_Red]

One thing is for sure : mocking and insulting people does not work. Ordinary people who fall into conspiracy theories have understandable fears that are actually rooted in Human history, as we have a long history of being lied to by media who sometimes do not fact check governmental statements, war propaganda, nationalist narratives of us against them, etc. Some people can be utterly shocked or traumatized when they realize what they were told might be an illusion and they lose their balance so to speak and stop believing almost all official discourse and cling to the far-fetched fearmongering spread by other people who are not in power or not expert. Their fears are often founded, even if their grasp of concrete reality is off and they skip over all nuances and complexities/contradictions. Of course, if one studies conspiracy theories you can see patterns where they overly simplify reality into one dark fearsome accusation. In a sense, this video is part of our collective therapy. :P

[@Tayyla007]

The integrity of Naomi Klein not writing The same book again and again makes me almost tear up with deep loving respect❤❤❤❤❤ wish there were More doppelgangers like that❤❤❤❤ best wishes from Finland

[@maxrobespierre9176]

What really amazes me how so many people refuse to see the obvious. Often, conspiracies exist.

[@MariaMartinez-researcher]

Sure. The historical, extremely definite ones, with very specific aims and specific things to win, with known participants, and which leave a track of documents and other evidence of their actual existence. Guy Fawkes was caught with the powder, ready to blow the Parliament. The Tuskegee syphilis study had witnesses and left archives. Both have been discussed at the academic level. Quite a different thing are the conspiracies that require thousands of people engaging in it through centuries and international borders, like flat Earth, with no substantial gain. Or, the control of all the governments on Earth including the adversarial ones by an ever-present yet somehow hidden USA supra-government called the Deep State that appears to be immune to elections (no matter how shocking the regime changes are, like Bush->Obama->Trump->Biden) and to the natural renovation of bureaucratic staff - with no purpose. Why to hide absolute power? Because someone could possibly oppose such power? Or, the ones claiming that a nefarious "they" intend to kill most of humankind to exert total subjugation and economic domination, against the laws of reality (compare Microsoft's service to clients to Gates' nanobots capable of controlling minds - somehow), the laws of biology/physics (vaccines making people magnetic - what for? Vaccines killing people - billions have been vaccinated, humankind is now over 8 billion and increasing) or historic/economic laws: the Black Death reduced so much the labourer population that they could get better salaries. So... If you believe something is happening, and that belief requires a widespread conspiracy which nobody ever betrays nor whistleblows *with evidence* to support its existence, most likely there's no there there. Even less when the conspiracy's supporters are people with no expertise or experience whatsoever in the fields related to the conspiracy - as it happens with flatearthers: not a single cartographer in their ranks, just some guys on social networks. So, be careful. Horses and rhinoceros exist; it doesn't mean unicorns exist too.

[@vitalyl1327]

And not a single conspiracy was ever uncovered by conspiracy theorist trash.

[@maxrobespierre9176]

I am careful. I more specifically referring to government conspiracies against its own citizens. Such as in the USA, MKULTRA, the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and proposed Operation Northwoods. Known, documented and undeniable.

[@kselz7449]

@@MariaMartinez-researcher I think the issue is that the truth is somewhere in the middle between no conspiracy and flat earth. There has been a lot of conspiracy theories proven correct as of late - large ones too. It is very clear there is a deep state and their mission is also clear - maintain the military-industrial complex and the police state (including ever increasing law enforcement, FBI, CIA, DHS, etc etc etc). Ever notice how any protest against these mechanisms turns to riots? Like black lives matter? Pretty strange that of three random people shot in Kenosha Wisconsin all were serious criminals (aka FBI "informants"). Nothing invalidates the cause of a peaceful protest as much as violence - and the number of situations where the FBI themselves were instigating is also stacking up - whether it be January 6th (believe to be >20-30 agents mixed in with the crowds there) - or the Governor Whitmer case. Of course... this is all conspiracy isn't it?

[@JeepCherokeeful]

It doesn’t take a medical degree to understand what an EUA “vaccine” means...

[@lite1979]

As a personal rule, I never tell a woman that she looks like someone else, because I don't know what their opinion of that "someone else" is, and it could be taken as a pejorative. It also immediately makes them feel less unique when you do that.

[@pauladuncanadams1750]

yeah, but with eight billion people we aren't that unique.

[@bubstacrini8851]

​@@pauladuncanadams1750that's why fingerprints are all identical eh Paula, cause there's so many of them, that standardized manufacturing was the only cost effective way for industry to profitably make them.

[@pauladuncanadams1750]

@bubstacrini8851 Fingerprints are more alike than not. You need an expert. And nobody makes fingerprints but God.

[@bubstacrini8851]

@@pauladuncanadams1750 You may need an expert, but observant students in grade school can distinguish between finger prints. As for God making them, which of the many thousands of gods worshiped on this earth would be the give everyone unique fingerprints god?

[@pauladuncanadams1750]

@@bubstacrini8851 All. None.

[@sqldatabunny]

regarding doppelgangers and having a public profile, let us all pour one out for Matt Gertz at Media Matters.

[@ax14pz107]

Back when I was still on xhitter, I loved looking at his threads because of the confusion. It was hilarious, but damn I bet it was exhausting for Gertz.

[@nhwdk]

Science and the search for the best available version of the truth does indeed take time. Have you found yourself changing any of your perspectives based on newly emerging facts or documents?

[@josephlunderville3195]

I love that the conclusion of the discussion is that conspiracy theories are the REAL conspiracy

[@papalegba6796]

Gaslighting 101

[@bubblepopper9979]

Oh, that’s why she didn’t need confirming data! They see the “c theories” as just opinions, rather than coming from gov docs

[@papalegba6796]

Here are the cushy gravy train pseudo-jobs in the pseudosciences Klein has somehow grifted her way into, despite having no qualifications at all in any of them: "Naomi Klein is the UBC Professor of Climate Justice (tenured) at the University of British Columbia in the Faculty of Arts (Geography Dept). She is the founding co-director of the UBC Centre for Climate Justice. In 2018 she was named the inaugural Gloria Steinem Endowed Chair in Media, Culture and Feminist Studies at Rutgers University. She is Honorary Professor of Media and Climate at Rutgers".

[@papalegba6796]

And here is the quote she chooses to lead on her website home page. Note that it is by a science FICTION author & therefore academically worthless: “Naomi Klein’s books have been building one on the next to create a very powerful and influential cognitive mapping of our time. This new book takes a personal turn, then opens out into an analysis of our shared global dilemma that is as incisive and fascinating as anything she has ever written-which is saying a lot….” - Kim Stanley Robinson, author of The Ministry for the Future

[@smallpseudonym2844]

@@papalegba6796 Still feeling antivax?

[@nalen5050]

top guest, top interview. thank you

[@MH-lk8md]

I’ve never met an intelligent conspiracy theorist.

[@HSR107]

I fell out of it over the past decade Tempted to make a joke about how it stopped being "cool" after going too mainstream with all the normies latching onto it. #HipsterIntensifies

[@EphemeralPseudonym]

the best defense against being a harmful person is being a complete hipster LMFAOOO

[@bobpurcell7175]

It astounds me that anyone would confuse the two Naomis. For some reason, I had no trouble distinguishing them thirty years ago ("the hot one" and "the sane one," in those days.) Alas, personality is indeed the last thing to go.