are tropes on booktok ruining reading?

[@Thenumberstationangel]

The worst part about the proliferation of tropes as a form of advertising is that summaries have gotten significantly worse. Okay i know it’s enemies to lovers but what else happens

[@alulea__]

Even worse when the tropes mentioned are legitimately not in the book. The number of times I have seen 'enemies/rivals to lovers' and they were straight up not enemies or rivals....

[@mskyyy]

@@alulea__ Disagreeing with someone for three pages or being of unsure of them because they're a new character being introduced to the protagonist for the first time does not constitute ETL. I don't know why it's portrayed as such. My guess, is that it's a marketing strategy to grab the attention of an established base of readers who enjoy that trope, or, they do not fully understand it (this could apply to any trope, really).

[@Necrotoxin44]

And I think the problem is that before the proliferation of tropes, summaries were still often kind of bad... Like, I think even before not enough attention was given toward distilling a story into a few paragraphs. Now, even less attention is given because slapping in the tropes is deemed good enough.

[@SnorriSnibble]

this is my gripe as well. It works in fanfiction because you usually look for fics of specific characters, so you already know the characters and you just want to know the setting or a couple references of what's gonna happen with them, but for actual books that are supposed to stand on their own that obviously have new characters and new plots it's just not enough as a summary. I really dislike this kind of advertising on insta for example where there's a picture of a book and then just a couple tropes around it like "enemies to lovers", "found family", "heist" and... yes, I usually like those things but only if they work within the context of the story, so please give me an overview of the story?

[@EmpressCosplay]

Ok, yes, that's annoying af, but I raise you: Books that don't have summaries or tropes at all, but only blurbs from newspapers about how groundbreaking of a debut it is.

[@josefinaamadio4217]

the thing for me is: when you look for fan fiction about a certain ship/fandom/etc. you already know and love the characters and they usually are well written and fully formed. They have flaws, virtues and reasons for WHY you love them. that's why the trope filtering usually works: you know your characters, already have an idea of what they're like so you can insert them in your favourite tropes/universes. you care about them. what sometimes happens now is that authors concentrate so much on the tropes and their stereotypes that they forget to write characters with a personality, with agency, with a reason as to why they're special and as to why we should care about them. for me that's why so many of these trope centred books fall flat. yes the dynamic is fun but WHY should I care about these two being enemies who become lovers if there is no actual chemistry? no actual reason for why they hate each other? i don't care so much about the tropes but the chemistry and dynamics and actual STORYLINES I'm reading about. if they're not engaging then I will not enjoy the reading experience. thank you for coming to my tedtalk

[@irem8513]

this is why fanfiction is an entirely different medium to me. the fundamental elements of creating an original story is very different from creating transformative work and I don't think some authors coming from a fanfic background understand this. there are so many books out there that feel like fanfic with their serial numbers filed off eventhough they are not because the authors are not putting in the work to give life to their characters.

[@blu3367]

exactly!!

[@Hello-hello-hello456]

Yeah, trope-heavy stuff works well for fanfics, but original stories are not exempt from writing meaningful characters and narratives.

[@UnsightlyMuse]

THIS. You have managed to put my exact thoughts into words. Transformative works ‘transform’ pre-existing media, and are therefore able to omit many of the conventions of original fiction. The issues start to arise when we begin to write original works in a similar vain to transformative works, and forget that the is a greater force (original works) behind the fanfiction. We are left with nothing of true substance since it seems that tropes and check-boxes are being prioritised over narrative depth and complete characterisation. (Which are the reasons as to why we fall in love with stories in the first place…) It has gotten to a point where I have read several fics that have far exceeded the quality today’s published works.

[@addiem4387]

yesss exactly!! reducing original works to tropes is honestly so funny in so many circumstances because I have seen people suggest certain tropes to like classic novels 😭

[@evildoesnotsleep-x2b]

i don't like books being advertised with tropes, it ruins the whole discovery process, i wanna read and stumble upon a trope and then decide if it's being used correctly. am i alone in this?

[@almond7994]

Yess I said the exact same thing. Ppl advertise books the same way they would movies. They are just upfront with everything and tell instead of show. It rly takes the fun out of discovery and finding something unique like what you said.

[@Based808]

Same

[@juliemarie612]

I agree

[@pancake8180]

I treat them like trigger warnings and avoid stuff i don't like (forced proximity trope, as example, it sounds awful-)

[@efinah2305]

I don’t mind tropes. If it has something I don’t like, I can just not read it.

[@abbiehannah_]

I feel like tropes on booktok are super great for quick 15-30 second reviews, but not the only thing you should be caring about when looking for a new book to read

[@Deni-mt9bj]

I actually love to discover romance books based on the tropes. I read mainly fantasy - from epic political drama to the cutest romance. Before I pick up a book, I never care what it is about. It can have really nice cover, or that I heard it’s one of the best fantasy series. I never read the synopsis. I watch a lot of KZbin content to know who I should trust and just dive in knowing basically nothing of what to expect. But I am very picky when it comes to romantasy. I know I don’t need the most epic battles because I get them in adult fantasy. I just want mainly the romance with cringe banter and the angst etc. And it’s very easy to find those kind of books based on the tropes rather than synopsis. I once picked up a book based on one quote. And I loved that book.

[@Deni-mt9bj]

@sandraswan9008 send it my way once it's finished! 😁❤️

[@emilyrln]

@sandraswan9008 I feel this in my soul 😂 some of my starting dialogue is sooooo bad 💀

[@Thelastunicornlover]

Fax📠

[@fortunatecookie]

People are talking a lot about trope advertising, but the worst form of advertising for me is when books LIE about “if you liked [super popular book] then you’ll love this one!” And the two books are nothing alike

[@yagirlzee]

i hate this!! or it's like " ___ meets ___ in this new, enthralling tale" or something and it turns out to be a 2-star read so different from the books it was compared to. similar to tropes, they're just baiting readers fr

[@nathfofalinda]

Or when the only things on the back of the book are the compliments by other authors

[@giordanodsouza9563]

​@@nathfofalinda and the compliments are so vague you can't tell if that author read the book they're complimenting 😂

[@GummyDinosaursify]

Any YA Book with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Harry Potter!" Any YA books with dystopian: "If you like Hunger Games!" Any Adult Books with Fantasy Elements: "If you like Game of Thrones!"

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

It's basically approaching literature with advertising algorithms. Algorithms can't tell what's good or bad writing, they can only tell how many of the same keywords they find in the description of two books.

[@novisob2233]

I feel the same about tropes as I do about trigger warnings: I want the information to be out there if I go looking for it, but I don't want it to be thrown at me otherwise because, when they go into so much detail, that can be spoiler-y and make the reading experience less interesting

[@NovelsWithNicole]

Nailed it

[@dandelionss_dream]

See i feel that way about tropes but trigger warnings i feel should be given without always searching for it (my biggest example being miscarriage and how that can be a very major thing for some people and not knowing that is in a book can hurt. I mainly use miscarriage just because i’ve seen it not have warnings - and how many people have expressed how it hurt them because of what’s going on in their own life, and they would’ve known not to pick that book up if they had that warning. ) but i can totally understand your stance too! -and i don’t mean this to seem mean or anything ! i just love the conversation on whether or not things should be included-

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

You make a really, really good point.

[@darkdream1469]

​@@dandelionss_dreamI totally feel the same way about trigger warnings.

[@eleanorwatkins6832]

Oooh interesting. I agree with the overuse of tropes but not for trigger warnings, and I think it's down to safe reading experiences. People who want to be surprised by a books content can EASILY skip a trigger warning list in a book, but it's very difficult for someone to unread a *surprise* in a book, such as a graphic rape scene, incest, etc. Tropes are often thrown at you and I think they frequently spoil the book (much like some movie trailers to), but I think trigger warnings are much more subtly given and can easily be avoided by simply skipping the page in a book or scrolling past a section of someone's book recommendation, since these are generally written. I see a lot of video content advertising "fake dating where he needs someone to pretend to be his girlfriend so he can .. *insert huge spoiler*", where it's just given right to you, but I've never seen the same for trigger warnings - usually there's a short list at the end of someone's book recommendation, or just a general preface of "this book is dark, check TWs", where then you can make the choice of whether or not you want to seek out that information). Maybe we just have different reading experiences, but can you talk more about how you feel trigger warnings are thrown at you?

[@queena6654]

Yes they are so many authors are writing books with no plot and just tropes strung together to appease Booktok and it’s getting harder to find good books in the specific genres I like 🤦🏾‍♀️

[@brianna2278]

This is sort of my issue. These tropes have seemed to take precedence over actual plot/craft because tropes are the things that sell. And in my personal opinion, that means that a lot of mediocre or really bad books are being published and promoted and highly rated. So I pick one up and I'm...confused and unsatisfied.

[@jennacraine]

Yes! I have given up on recommendations from TikTok etc. I now heavily rely on Reddit for recommendations, haha.

[@SnorriSnibble]

I feel similar - it has become so hard to scour through all the books that are recommended, or even just the shelves in the book stores, to find actual good ones that seem worth it. Tropes are great and all, but only if they work within the story and fit and it seems like a lot of authors just try to put as many popular tropes as possible into their books, no matter if they fit the plot or not. I want to read a story, not a trope. So many books where you can just *tell* that the author deliberately and forcibly put a trope in there and it kinda takes me out of it.

[@Lonovavir]

I've found that no matter much I pre-plan a story unexpected things happen and force me to change the story. You can't plan on having tropes as they may not jive with the story you end up writing.

[@IvellScarlett]

I also think there is a difference between novels that just happen to have tropes in them and a book that clearly used tropes as building material. In the first one, the tropes usually fit vaguely if you squint or the trope in question is super broad. In the latter the trope is repeated so specify that you sometimes even get the same wording over and over again.

[@johat1219]

Just to make clear, enemies to lovers was not meant to be bully and Stockholm syndrome victim. I hate when they marketed bullies as an "enemy" and a "lover". NO! The characters are enemies by confronting circumstances, values, political compass, socioeconomic status, etc, so when the romance happens is because they get pass those two different sides and POVs to find similarities and, of course, attraction and love. An a-h*** is not an "enemy", is just a sociopath, tag it as such.

[@Zack-xv2yc]

Or if it's just a SA-ter/victim situation. ABSOLUTELY THE HELL NOT!!!

[@Strawbrie]

this is the reason I am currently writing my own "enemies to lovers" haha :))

[@Hello-hello-hello456]

Yes, there needs to be some kind of equality in the enemies

[@anna2731]

I'm afraid that bully romance is a sub trope of enemies to lovers. So the category is not wrong. But as someo who hates bully romances I understand your frustration.

[@sokokokoko]

"Enemies" should have equality between them. They should have the same energy, both giving back as much as the other when they butt heads

[@ChloeFrizzle]

I like describing a book by its Conflict. Like what the internal conflict of the protagonist is, or the external conflict of the plot

[@jmsl_910]

that's GENIUS!!! is that a thing? i've never seen/read it

[@ChloeFrizzle]

@@jmsl_910 mostly it's just a thing I started doing sometimes on my own Booktube channel. Like, enemies to lovers is interesting, but the more interesting part of it to me is How Do They Grapple With It and Why Are They Enemies

[@Hello-hello-hello456]

Yes, this is the way to do it.

[@elenarodriguez602]

Ain't that just plot? Like I agree, but isn't that just the plot?

[@nospoonfulofmayonnaiseforme]

hmm good idea. could be spoilers tho

[@breathoffresherin9066]

“I think Nature is healing” YES! thank you. I think there are so many talented fanfic writers out there with the potential to become great authors and writing fanfics is a great way for them to experiment and hone their skills.

[@bigdumb1]

I've been a fanfic writer for about a decade now and even just in my limited circle of writing friends from two pretty niche fandoms, I have personally known two other fanfic writers who went on to become published authors with their original fiction. This is my ultimate goal as well. I would be nowhere near as good at writing as I am now had I not gotten into fanfiction, and I'm forever grateful for it, despite how "cringe" many people consider the hobby to be. It's a beautiful form of self-expression and I firmly believe much of the demonization of it is rooted in misogyny.

[@keegster7167]

I know that fanfics can't pay the bills but I think fanfics CAN be the work of a great author, not just a stepping stone to become one. I suppose being able to write an original work is really important but expanding on an existing work is a worthy practice of its own imo. But it is hard to find really really good ones.

[@killme5630]

i always say that if dostoevsky was alive today he'd be on ao3, not publishing on booktok. ao3 has genuine drive and soul. compare that to booktok, the writing is so soulless that i find it insulting

[@juliannesl]

I realized once, when thinking about tropes I like and tropes I don't, that most of the tropes I loathe to see advertised are tropes that give away the entire plot of the story, because there's fewer ways the story can play out. I mean, when you see "fake dating" on the cover, you already know pretty much every major beat of the story - contrived setup forcing the leads together, forced romantic gestures, the leads develop real feelings, after some third act contrivances they confess their love and ride off into the sunset. I don't despise the concept of fake dating in books, but once I've read one fake dating book, I really feel like I've read them all. Meanwhile, tropes like "morally gray characters" or "forbidden love" bother me a lot less because there's a lot of ways the story can play out. All enemies to lovers books are basically the same, while not all books with morally gray characters are even remotely similar, do you know what I mean?

[@mariam19554]

I thought of this too when in the video she mentioned tropes of fairytales and one of them being „villain tricks the main character“. That could mean so many different things whereas „enemies to lovers“ is usually going to follow the same story beats

[@aestheticzebra4467]

this is exactly what i was thinking!!! i enjoy a good enemies to lovers plot line but my favorite thing about it is when i dont expect it, yk? if i already know its "enemies to lovers" it takes away the fun of "ohmygosh they're catching feelings!!!" idk its hard to explain lol

[@14suryashi]

This is so perfectly put thank you

[@brianna2278]

My main problem with tropification isn't the tropes themselves or the repeatability--I love a good trope!--but that the quality of the book no longer seems as important as whether or not the trope is present. So I think a lot of books are getting published primarily because everyone knows the trope will sell; but the book isn't actually good. And there's a proliferation of these stories so there's just a rush of mediocre literature being published and it's frustrating to wade through. Don't get me wrong--I love the romance genre and tropes. But the writer also has to have skill and be talented and the book has to have a good plot and good character arcs and writing that's a little bit above average, and it doesn't seem like that's really important as long as the right trope is there.

[@CassTeaElle]

As an author, I agree with this assessment. My books have not sold well at all, so I decided to try writing a series that was more tropey and written to market. And I definitely felt that pressure to get the tropes right, which sometimes went against my instincts of where I thought the story should go. (Although tbh, I usually chose my instincts even if it meant sacrificing the tropey-ness, because I actually do care deeply about my stories being what I want them to be.) This was especially difficult with the grumpy/sunshine trope. I love that trope, but this was my first time writing it, and it ended up being really, really hard to do with the setting I had chosen for my story. It's about a reality dating show, so it was a constant battle to figure out how I could make the guy truly grumpy without having the girl just send him home immediately for being a jerk. I definitely couldn't make him as much of a grump as some "grumpy/sunshine" readers would want, because it just wouldn't have made any sense for her to keep him around when she had so many other guys that were actually nice. I had to introduce some softness a lot sooner than most grumpy/sunshine stories probably do. And honestly, despite this being probably the hardest book I've ever written, it also ended up being one of my favorites in the end. 😂 But I completely agree with you about focusing on tropes too much leading to making sacrifices in other aspects of the storytelling process. I think this series has taught me that I'm not interested in "writing to market." I just want to write whatever genre-blended messy stories I want, because those earlier books of mine mean so much more to me than this new series, despite the fact that they don't sell.

[@luvneojen]

the fanficification of book publishing is actually what this goes back to honestly. same story different characters? same characters different story? tagging specific scenarios and tropes? all there. also literally publishing fanfiction is so big in the last decade too. also been on my mind as i was thinking about old greek stories. like after the illiad there was so much more written about the characters before and after that's essentially fan fiction but because it was so popular it's kind of blended in with the illiad's "canon". think the trojan horse that's not even from the original illiad but from later works taking place after.

[@elguardallavesdejaal]

The thing with the Illiad is that it was part of the popular mythos, so, even if Homer's version was deemed as the best telling of that story, it probable already existed before he wrote it down. In ancient times author could write the same story in ten different ways because those stories came from the oral tradition and people's folk. The idea of "canon" in that age was unthinkable. And not only in greece, but in other places of the world too. So they weren't really doing fan fiction in our modern way of thinking, they were telling and retelling, expanding ir reducing, stories that didn't come with copyright and were owned by everyone.

[@hihey229]

Don't forget, the ancient Greeks considered the Trojan war a historical fact, and the popular mythos surrounding it their actual history. In much the same way that Euripedes didn't invent the myth about Helen in Egypt when writing his famous play, Homer almost definitely did not invent the myths he decided to dramatisise. The Iliad only covers a very small part of the Trojan war, from the withdrawal of Achilles from battle to the funeral of Hector. It is not a comprehensive retelling of it all: Homer had a very specific narrative he wanted to convey. I believe the Trojan horse specifically is mentioned in the Odyssey, funnily enough. A lot of the consensus about the general conclusion of the war and what followed stems from Odysseus's retelling of it in Homer's Odyssey.

[@softwaifu]

Thissssss

[@Espeonchan]

I wouldn't necessarily say tropes are ruining reading. It is very annoying, though, because the book in question gets reduced to one thing and the rest of the story doesn't seem to matter anymore.

[@Lovelyclarii]

That’s what I’ve found as well, I get the same with random quotes taken out of context because I’ll go “aw that seemed cute” and it’s the one good thing in the book

[@oxjuliaaaxo]

I agree! They are reduced to nothing outside of that single trope. And then the book gets returned!

[@citlalialvarado666]

I once saw a post with 'It Ends With Us' and I can't remember the tropes but i was like "REALLY? that's the first thing that comes to mind with this specific book" Like yeah, it is not properly advertised at all, but at least the creator should have accountability to their audience and acknowledge how harmful it is to tiptoe around and reduct such complex themes

[@NiarahHawthorne]

That would be what "ruining reading" means.

[@stanloona000]

' no beta we die like *insert character from your fandom* '

[@DonutsAgainstHumanity]

I was thinking that too!

[@CelynBrum]

The best versions are the ones where you immediately think "how dare you" or "ouch" and then laugh bcos they are right.

[@Sofi-tj6nq]

that's my fav ngl, it hurts, but I always laugh

[@zvvchu]

or "no beta we die like men" you can tell the fic will be exquisite

[@CelynBrum]

@@zvvchu I like when it's "no beta we die like mne".

[@jessicanw]

I can't believe how lucky I am to be enrolled in the University of Leonie. Seriously. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but you always make me think and reevaluate.

[@oxfordscomma]

I've been subscribed to your KZbin channel for a few years now and it is such a full circle moment to see that you referenced my article in your description and video -- the one titled "Are tropes ruining books" from the Michigan Daily. I'm so glad you liked it and thank you for making this video :) time-stamp: 34:01

[@TheBookLeo]

wow! love this!

[@melemon810]

haha i like ur username

[@emunaarnold2706]

I love recommending classic lit using booktoc tags. Like Crime and punishment as Grumpy x Sunshine

[@natasunshine1541]

Ahahaha that genius. I think things may actually captivate those, who doesn't like classic lit

[@klane2004]

This video was legit art. The "video essay" community is quaking lol. Also, are those STRAWBERRY string lights and if so I need to know where to get them?! Strawberries are my thing (they were my grandma's thing, so when she passed I carried it on).

[@Hvitlys]

Tiger has a lot of strawberries right now. Maybe it's theirs?

[@Aphelia.]

I also love strawberry everything, what a sweet obsession

[@mariim.1722]

Cider has some too 🍓

[@mattia7047]

17:22 Putting Dante when you talk of fanfiction is the most accurate thing ever. The Divine Comedy is the best example of a self-insert to ever exist and I will die on that hill

[@joshuapray]

There is much more to The Divine Comedy than Dante being its main character. The self-insert in fan-fiction serves only one purpose, and that is to allow the writer to fantasise that they are included in their favourite stories. The Divine Comedy does not do that. Otherwise, what favourite fiction is Dante inserting himself into? I can see the temptation to call The Divine Comedy 'self-insert' because the author is the main character -- but no attempt is made to hide that fact, whereas a genuine self-insert is disguised as someone who simply (but unbelievably) belongs in the fictional universe in question. If calling the main character by the writer's name is all it takes to make a work self-insert fan-fiction, then autofiction and autobiographical fiction don't exist as genres.

[@melowlw8638]

​​@@joshuapray ur comment sort of comes off as a "erm ackshually" kind of remark, but u make a good point!! i think people call it a self insert in a way that applies our modern perception of what Dante's work is, even with calling it fanfic bc at the time the term and concept didnt exist, but ure right to point out the subtlety between an actual self insert compared to just inserting oneself directly and blatantly into the work ill keep that in mind when looking at other "fanfics" of the past!! thanks

[@Quinn-bq9sv]

Dante is right up there with Lancelot lmao

[@chloesanders05]

@@joshuapraybecause dante makes his self insert meet people he looked up to and make them say good things about him. he also put everyone he hated in hell and makes fun of them. it’s a fanfic of the bible with crossover characters of everyone he hates/loves

[@noreingravity]

​@@joshuaprayDante made an exploration of something deeply important to him using himself as the protagonist to not also discover it all but receive the praise of the people he looks up to and also condemn to hell the people he hated. That can and I'm sure has been done today with self insert fanfiction, by the fact that we are a shit ton of people in these planet more literate than we were centuries ago. self insert is SUCH a broad genre because it really can be anything as long as the author has inserted themselves in. It can be just a self fulfilment fantasy written with no ambitions beyond that of the author being happy or it can be used as a deep exploration of the thing you're inserting yourself in and then, yourself. So yeah, The Divine Comedy is self insert bible fanfiction, a really good one, but one at the end of the day, and you could only think that is an insult if you believe self insert fanfiction to be a form of inferior literature in the first place.

[@Nicoleeeeeeee8]

That moment when Leonie gives you a new source for your MA thesis on fairy tale adaptations. Thank you! :D This also means that I am counting watching this video as doing research and thus am being productive right now.

[@lottecooper4370]

What's your title?:)

[@Nicoleeeeeeee8]

@@lottecooper4370 Young Adult Cinderella Adaptations :) I haven't thought of a fun and fancy title yet :D

[@lottecooper4370]

@@Nicoleeeeeeee8 that's cool, have fun! (Or well, I mean at least good luck and I hope you don't drown in work)

[@liacamp9]

the problem with "accepting" this tropeification is that authors think they need to write to appeal to it and can only market their book as tropes. the books themselves are losing their plots and the characters their complexity because authors are more focused on the marketing side of things (which is understandable, they're trying to sell their art in a capitalist world), but i really think we should leave "tropes" behind. when it's something niche for the tiktok and ao3 girlies (gn) it's fine, but when it becomes the only marketing strategy the publishers use, i think we need to give it a step in other direction. in conclusion, we need to come back to (re)telling stories because they're compelling, even if they're cliche, and not because the only way to be successful selling your story is through booktok.

[@swordigosung994]

Yeah. A good story is more than stacking up nice elements. It has to be created as a whole, even those less than exciting parts help holding it together. You have to write more than a combination of tropes for them to shine, and if you start from the tropes only, you will end up with something less then that.

[@anica2112]

The author guiltiest of this is the one behind Lightlark and Nightbane

[@gracel2mart]

Plus like, even with AO3 stories that are tagged via tropes, they can still have actual story and plot that uses tropes but is unique and not spoiled by tags. My favorite example is this insanely good fanfic tagged a basically “magical college au mystery.” Which is true! But as the mystery unraveled, they found that they were LITERALLY in an artificially created alternate timeline, because some gods needed time to stop a prophecy so they backed up the clock about 20 years, then slowly discover that their friends ARE the gods that did that and the spell messed up their memories. And they are still college students during this! So TLDR “Tropes limiting your book? Skill issue”

[@liacamp9]

@@gracel2mart that is so true! i totally believe it’s a skill issue as well. cliches and tropes aren’t the problem, but when you think you can put whatever on paper just because it has the tiktok favs… that’s just bad writing

[@mishyy]

An interesting thing that I’ve noticed about “tropification” is that tropes are usually romantic and commonly only present in plots/sub plots that involve romance. For example, you don’t see tropes in (for example) science fiction books I.e, they’re not condensed to being described and promoted as “sun explodes”, or “alien invasion”, or with thrillers, you don’t see people saying “books with the ‘kidnapping’/‘covering up murder’/‘police chase’ tropes. Because for all these other genres, they’re plot points, not “tropes” used to market them. It’s interesting how tropes seem to be exclusively genre-centric to romance, I’d like to see someone break down how that came to be.

[@debanjanachakraborty7416]

My exact thoughts....Tropes are mostly Romance-Centric ... I feel that's bcoz it's the most popular / talked about genre

[@emilyrln]

I feel like they show up a lot in fantasy, too: chosen one, wise old mentor, mentor who's actually the villain, mysterious prophecy, long journey, tournament or trials, magic school, killing a god…

[@NiarahHawthorne]

One word. Fanfiction.

[@akale2620]

Same

[@jaycerulean9206]

@@emilyrln fantasy definitely has a lot of tropes too, but it doesnt seem like anyone talks about those tropes or reduces those stories down to those tropes in the same way they do romance ones. i certainly havent seen people marketing a book as a long journey or chosen one story the same way i have seen them marketing a book as enemy to lovers, yannow?

[@aishar887]

Another option of recomending books that I LOVE is "oddly specific recomendations" such as "a book to read at 3am with a cup of tea and candlelights" or "childhood feverdream". I guess it's like the aesthetic recommendation but with words kinda.

[@noreingravity]

gosh I can't really get behind these because the definition of the authors who are (usually!!) from first world countries are wildly different from mine! i find it really interesting how cultural differences seep so deep into the fabric of a book

[@saram5659]

My boyfriend writes academic articles about the similarities in ancient Arabic and Greek stories. There is very little written about that, while they are sometimes so alike!

[@QuicklyLiquid]

This sounds so cool, is there somewhere I could find these?

[@Glutiam]

It sounds so interesting! It’s really astonishing how totally different countries are actually connected, for example Turkish book illustrations were pretty much influenced by Chinese art

[@elom.s3873]

That is so interesting ! We tend to think ancient humans were isolated, but they were so many contacts, exchanged and influenced between humans groups/ cultures. I studied Greek mythology and religion and we can see the influence of Sumerian religion on it.

[@lorn9876]

both the english major and library sciences in me are thrilled about this video. examining the working processes of narratives to categorize them, but also to understand and appreciate the art and mastery in creating the story itself- UGH i'm losing my mind. i love your video essays. thanks!

[@OceanSidezOnline]

I’m a teenager writing my first book, and it’s honestly amazing watching your channel to understand the basics of these things so I can think about how my book would be towards people other than me. I’m learning a lot from you! Thanks for teaching me so much

[@QuicklyLiquid]

That's amazing! I hope your writing goes well and you learn a lot from it. Best of luck to you :)

[@kiljoy459]

I find micro tropes like “there was only one bed” to be so useless like at least “enemies to lovers” or “grumpy x sunshine” describes plot and character.

[@salmamoalim6656]

I think it's ridiculous honestly. There was only bed. Uhmm I don't care?

[@scoobydont]

37:14 I agree with this idea, I like tropes as a starting point/a short description of the book which lets you decide if you want to look into it more.

[@storm-in-a-teacup137]

Alright, as a fanfic writer myself, here's the thing-we already have a backdrop to work with. We're choosing characters that we and readers know and love and we're putting them in situations to get rid of the brain rot that continues to wreak havoc and devastation in our brains and for you to enjoy. We're picking and choosing parts of canon we want and shaping it to fit the story we want to tell. And that's where the most important part comes in, you're familiar with these characters, you like 'em you hate 'em, you're aware of the worldbuilding and stuff in canon, all we need to do is choose the parts we like and present them to you. This gives us a steady ground to build our framework on, the reason why fanfiction works so well. Because you have a reason to love these characters, you know them inside out, and now you just want to see them in a particular situation. You want an avalanche of angst? Sure. Oh, you want a fix-it episode? No problem. You want to see them in a soft-horror setting with the perfect amount of angst based on a Panic At The Disco Song with an obnoxious amount of Mockingjay metaphors? Coming right up. It's essentially a book of requirement, which is why the "don't like, don't read" comes into play in fanfiction. Because you have the choice to read what you want, the only new thing we can do is try to make a different characterization, theories, or development of a minor character. But, we don't have to go through the trouble of building lore, it's already done for us - not that it stops us from searching up an insane amount of information to make sure the three-second cameo is correct, but semantics - so it makes our thing a lot more easier. Now, I'm definitely not saying that it's okay to harass authors about their work. The "don't like, don't read" thing definitely comes into play here too. Just in a different way. While in fanfiction, you have the choice to filter and search for the tags you want to see. These books that we're talking about today essentially don't face the same situation, mostly because they're filled with tropes that come up for a mere second before vanishing, making it tedious. Those poor souls trapped in trope-laden tales are like popsicle sticks in a hurricane-flimsy, forgettable, and ultimately, flavorless. You have no reason to care for these characters. You don't love them enough to want to see more of them in different situations and you have nothing to work with that makes you want to do that. They're one-note characters. Without a plot, without purpose, they're just hollow shells masquerading as stories. Building a narrative on tropes alone is like constructing a house of cards in a wind tunnel-destined to crumble at the slightest breeze.

[@ransbackburnerig]

The thing with TikTok books is there's no subtlety with the tropes. It doesn't seem natural anymore because they just tell you that it's "close proximity" or whatever trope and even spoon-feed it to the readers. There are good writers who didn't even know they were creating these tropes in their story and still make it a good story without making the trope the whole story.

[@lamcb.9476]

Ah, the “who did this to you” combined with the “enemies to lovers” that is like my kryptonite. I will go weak for a well writtten scene with those two components

[@Clotilde999]

Do you have any recommandation for particularly good ones? 🥺

[@thechumbucket8986]

pathetic

[@MadelineBuckner]

@@thechumbucket8986Hey, don’t be rude. People like what they like. I love tropes, too, including the “who hurt you” one

[@poseymckeon]

As an anthropologist by degree, I seriously admire your incorporation of anthro perspectives/schools of thought to relate pop cultural lit trends with history. I have not wished to initiate dialogue with a video essay more than yours!

[@ThexImperfectionist]

One of the first things I remember learning in creative writing classes was the argument that there are only 2 types of stories: "I am going on a journey" and "A stranger comes to town". The language we use to talk about stories may evolve over time but complete originality seems to be an unfair ask these days where not only have more books "been done" every day, but you also have immediate access to more of them than ever. The good news is that there is room for everything. Some people may get annoyed if whatever is popular is not to their taste or standards, but that doesn't mean whatever you're looking for isn't also out there. Edit: One positive of grouping books by their tropes/vibes is that it may encourage people to branch into a new genre for a trope they love. It's another tool like genre that has its usefulness but shouldn't be the end of the conversation about that book.

[@madametaylor625]

There's this tension that exists in all art, between the collective and the individual, which fascinates me. Nothing is truly original, but each person who gets ahold of it adds their own little twist. We have names for different periods and trends in different fields of art, and those periods were made of individuals who then pushed toward the next period. I think the modern concept of copyright removes a lot of nuance from this- I obviously support people getting paid for the creative work they do, but sometimes it gets pushed way too far to where people forget that everything you make is influenced by other stuff. The recent omegaverse lawsuit is a huge example of this!

[@chritureofpink]

The tropeification of books really is just how ao3 + others work LOL I guess they had it figured out. I really love the point about fairy tales and enjoying the comfort of familiarity, and the academic theories about humanity being applied to fanfiction 😭 it also made me think of the Hero’s Journey, which I realize is just the Trope of All Tropes, and we all enjoy that!!

[@TwirlGirl2197]

I once found an existentialist fanfic for Pong. Yes, one of the original video games on the Atari. Existentialist Pong Fanfiction exists and its really really good.

[@shadycat4-se2rt]

can you send a link to it?

[@AzraelSeraphino]

I edged to it

[@KYX1994]

Damn, the going back to pre-printing times is such an interesting take!

[@ritasallai152]

A cute little channel called extra credits informed me that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, because that was the popular trope of the time ( there were a lot of plays with royal murders, ghosts and such).

[@luvneojen]

my take is this; yes it's overused to use tropes as a sort of summary of the book but i feel it's more personal preference to choose books based on tropes or not. My issue actually arises when a book is marketed off a popular trope/ or combination of, but doesn't provide a good story as the background. Yes i do enjoy scratching the itch of a grumpy sunshine or fake dating sometimes but because these are so popular there's so many bland ones to get through. Most recently read powerless which is essentially just a rehash of tons of popular tropes and stories (deathly games, enemies to lovers, main girl is different) but I thought it was enjoyable, while not original. A tempest of tea also had lots of popular genre? tropes i'd say (heist, vampires, love triangle) but felt pretty hollow. So I don't hate the idea of tropes being such a big part of creating/ promoting books but i do fully believe it just creates tons of similar books. And it can be pretty hit or miss with all of these books getting popular.

[@NannaSvenningsenDahl]

As a newly masters graduate in Art history I really really appreciate your way of academically splitting these things into atoms haha! I really enjoy the “aesthetic” recommendations, but I also often find that i don’t feel the aesthetic I was promised, when I finally read the book. I think that people also fall into aestheticizing the aesthetic for the content, which makes sense bc who would watch the video or read a book if the aesthetic recommendation itself isn’t aesthetic? I find that my best experience is when I take recommendations from pure explained “vibes” and “feelings” and don’t get the visual aesthetic. But this may also be bc I primarily enjoy atmospherical, weird and character driven books, and couldn’t give less fcks about the plot if the above doesn’t hit me haha

[@victoriaschotten6403]

The fanfiction opening with dante on it made me laugh so hard. RIP Dante, you would have loved ao3

[@zoe8608]

really enjoyed this video!! connecting that academic rabbit hole to current-day tiktok and ao3 is super interesting! definitely agree that recommending books by tropes has both pros and cons. I haven't seen recommendations based on aesthetics on tiktok as much but I think those are kind of cool, very curious to see if they become more of a thing

[@toffeefuchs]

It is so funny to see someone make a video essay about stuff that I researched extensively for a university paper last year. Back then, I took a seminar about fanfiction and for my final grade I wrote a paper about fanfic versions of red riding hood and analysed some through a feminist lense. While only little bits of the reading made it into the paper, the whole history of the fairytale categories and also the discussions about fanfiction and the history of "originality" in literature and the concept of authorship/copyright was what I spend most time on. I went deep down thay research rabbit hole and I loved it. (I love that my university is open to topics like that in my German and English literature degree.) Anyway, all that said, great video! I love that you are able to summarise all that in one video that is accessable and understandable for peope outside of academia.

[@OraoraoraTori]

Your analysis of how tropes are being overused in social media content is very well researched and presented, it was a pleasure to follow along. I most appreciated your suggestions for alternatives. One of my favorite book related subreddits asks people to essentially recommend books by vibes, to suggest a book that "feels like this." Like you said, it makes the experience of the story the primary drive almost like a visual version of a "Blind Date with a Book".

[@kimberlyidol]

This is such a thoughtful dive into how books are being marketed today. Thanks for making this vid and I hope you are proud of it bc it must have taken a lot of time!!

[@JaeStien]

You don’t know how happy it made me to see the text theory analysis and theories in this video. I love structuralism and post structuralism, and the way you’ve explained it was so well, and it made me so happy

[@megansoucie1917]

the gasp I gusped when you showed the supernatural coffeeshop au 😭

[@arabellaashaw]

you quoting Levi Strauss, Barthes... my anthropologist heart getting emotional.

[@aurangzebparacha]

Her hair!!!! sooo sooo pretty! I love the asthetics it shows how a book will make you feel where its set with music that adds to the asthetic of the book its in my opinion way better than reducing a book down to the 'who did this to you trope'. And maybe this is just me but i don't think i would read a book just becouse it has one scene where a love interest say 'who did this to you' really liked this video :)

[@mariam19554]

I love the connection you made between academics and fanfiction/tiktok, it makes sense! History just keeps repeating itself

[@klane2004]

If literature is going trope-y, I'd love to hear ideas from people about weird/not done yet tropes! So fun to discover what people would either like OR write a trope book about! ❤❤❤

[@madvenger16]

One archetype I’d love to see is a healer character with either VERY grey morality or wavering loyalty, or both!

[@86fifty]

Ooooh, I've had this idea before, too! Like, to go on TVTropes and just hit 'random page' until something comes up that I've never seen before!

[@NaughtWalter]

I think it would be refreshing to see a character begin a story as very outgoing and extroverted, but undergo growth and development to eventually become more introverted and reserved by the story's end. The inverse of this is possibly one of the most overused, and misunderstood, tropes in fiction, so well written subversions of it are hard to come by.

[@aishwarya39-j6s]

My literary criticism teacher would love your academic vigour and your comparison. Love your videos! The English literature student in me just wants to hug you and never let you go!❤

[@eddieford9373]

Tropes don't ruin books. Bad writers ruin tropes.

[@catsandbats77]

There are certain tropes I like that I don't mind knowing about going into a book, like friends to lovers, forced proximity, etc .. However, when it comes to others, specifically found family, I don't want to know about that beforehand. I want to discover it along with the characters. I don't like the advertising just to those tropes that's being done. I feel like it forces authors to write to those tropes, but it can also take the joy out of discovering them while reading the books. I feel like a lot of the mystery has been taken out of reading books. Not all books, but especially the books that become popular. I like going into books not knowing a lot. I'm not a fan of the silent reviews and will skip over them. I do absolutely love the video you showed of the aesthetic of the book. I want to know what book that was.

[@ishathakor]

i really feel like fanfiction and "original" works are fundamentally different ways to approach art and that's where my issue with the tropification of published fiction stems from. fanfiction is about putting the characters you already know in a specific situation. you already know those characters. with og fiction, you don't. and the fact that the authors and fans are both massively focused on the tropes i think is partly what contributes to the shit quality of the writing. the tiktok trope books basically are just the same books over and over and they genuinely just don't even attempt to flesh out characters or a plot or anything because they only care about the tropes. or it's something that is reduced to a single trope when that book has way more to offer.

[@andreasiccardo8063]

This is appening also in Japanese animation! A lots of recent fantasy animes have title such as "my next life as...", "Being reicarneted as.." or "my life in another world as..". There are presented by their fanbase with a lot of emohasis on trops like "op main character", "harem", "video game magic system". Even the "isekai genre" (a charter trasported or forced to live in another world) is indeed a trope, not a genre

[@chiaraturci2024]

I live for these video essays 📚 this girlie knows how to do her research and deliver

[@ceeaymoore]

First of all; I like your editing, and I subscribed! Found this by chance while watching other booktubers I'm getting into. Your early point around 7:00 is the one I've been thinking about the most. With the rise of self-publishing and this newfound accessibility for indie authors, we're seeing people getting into marketing their own work and doing the same things that big publishers have been doing since forever, warts and all. It's understandable, and not entirely black and white.

[@Ink_Spills]

My concern about indexing books by their tropes isn't that writers are refusing tropes (All stories are variations on the same stories and always have been. Your Folklore example is exactly on point). My concern is more that I won't be able to know which books are well written if the only description I have is a list of tropes. Some writers are a lot better than others at making the same trope work so I really want more detailed reviews about why a book is good before I commit to reading it.

[@benix598]

this is so funny because in drama we have two category tragedy and comedy, which basically a categorization of works based on the plot, but everyone is cool whit it

[@starlight-4324]

this has got to be my favourite video from you! Growing up I have been OBSESSED with the idea that cultures share similar storylines.

[@madalenapires21]

You usually mention the Brothers Grimm when talking about the most famous versions of fairytales in the western world, but I would like to point out that Charles Perrault, a french writer of the XVII century is actually considered the guy who invented "fairy tales" as a genre, based on the common folk tales in Europe. A lot of the most famous versions of these fairy tales like Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty are his published versions. This is also because Disney decided to adapt Perrault's versions to their animation studios instead of the more dark versions of the german writers (as the movies were intended fo all ages).

[@Bellona52]

Even then, Perreault was only the first *man* who did this. The comtesses of the 17th century were retelling literary fairytales in their salons before then.

[@madalenapires21]

@@Bellona52 Oh I believe that, but fairy tales and folk tales have always been told and retold. I think Perrault was just the first or one of the first to actually publish them. He didn't actually invent any of the stories.

[@CPJHTrebleChoir]

Vladimir Propp!!! Love the analysis of folktales so much I could cry. There’s a point you keep skirting around (maybe unintentionally) that I wish you had addressed- analysing and identifying patterns isn’t inherently saying there’s only value in the shared characteristics. Seeing commonalities in the structure of multiple stories doesn’t mean they’re all the same now (obviously). It’s a valid analytical lens through which to view those tales for compare-and-contrast. I don’t think finding patterns in the way people across nations tell stories takes away from those stories’s uniqueness, it’s just one way to look at them… would love to hear your ideas on this

[@aed2069]

You nailed it at the start- TikTok itself waters down learning. I’m a teacher, and we had a seminar on how to start teaching in rapid 7-second increments because our students are learning in short bursts. Trope-ifying is just an extension of this… “why read an entire synopsis when we can rapidly categorise books?”

[@adorp]

If I was told to start teaching in seven second increments, I would quit. Learning can be fun, but it is also supposed to be hard. It can't be fun if there is no challenge in it. Tiktok isn't even fun. It is more like a drug. It provides instant gratification, which triggers pleasure hormones. If a student can't work hard for a long-term goal, teaching that student is a waste of time.

[@maddiemoor]

Leonie I ATE UP this video omg. I study linguistics with a particular focus on psycholinguistics and you have sparked so many ideas, questions, theories etc. that I can’t wait to explore further. These sorts of videos make me appreciate your book reviews even more than I already did! Also the rip memes had me giggling so that’s a plus too 🤣

[@irem8513]

My issue with (overt) tropification is not that these books have these tropes but that they replaced the fundamental elements of crafting an original story. With the way people talk about stories changing, the authors' approach to writing a story also shifted. I agree that tropes can be comforting with their familiarity but to me if the book/plot/characters entirely hinge on tropes, I have no reason to feel any emotional attachment, so tropes feel meaningless, existing in the air, attached to nothing. This is fundamentally very different from fanfiction where the source material hooks the reader emotionally already and now we want to see these characters roleplay different scenarios; fanfiction is a different medium with its own story elements. Now, this is a personal taste in what I like to read, maybe other people feel the thrill and the comfort even when the characters are cardboard cutouts as long as they deliver the codified tropes, but it's becoming increasingly hard to bet on new books and authors when they are advertised this way. When you say "enemies to lovers" before anything else about your book, all I hear is that while writing your priority was hitting every single plot beat of that trope instead of creating complex characters and an engaging story. So even if you went that length, maybe even did some interesting subversion or deconstructing, I'm not gonna pick it up. And the other side of tropes that people don't talk enough about: the death of literary criticism. When books are talked in this bite-sized, easy consumption way, the criticism also becomes superficial. "This is a bad book because Trope X happened." is not a meaningful sentence, the same as "Read this because it has Trope Y!" is not a meaningful sentence. Why did you hate Trope X? The execution? The implications? Did it ruin the themes or undermine character development? Do you understand why Trope X is even happening, why characters are in this position for Trope X to happen? No trope is fundamentally good or bad, they say nothing beyond "this thing happens" and anytime I see a top Goodreads review that's just a string of tropes (with negative OR positive connotations) a part of me dies. I don't think tropification ruined reading, you can still go out and find great books and great book criticism, but it's become increasingly hard in this hyper-capital world where creating content easy to consume and market means more coins.

[@manusarubbi]

What an incredible video! The amount of research you did is remarkable. I can't believe I watched a video about tik tok trends that also covered Russian formalists and deconstructist theory, stuff I read for my master's and phd on literature. Amazing work! Also, I love when the light gets a bit darker and the candles behind you get super intense and warm 🥰

[@kazu9445]

I honestly think half of it is also preference of how you want to discover a book. But honestly, it links so much into that short attention span people have gotten from short form media and doom scrolling. Instead of taking the effort to read a blurb or read a synopsis, people just want a sentence to sum up the whole book. Furthermore, it goes into the "smut" side of it. I saw a video once of a comment that said "Does White Nights have any smut in it?" ...it's Dostoevsky. It ruined my faith in readers lol

[@TaLila360]

I love that overall mild background music plays throughout the video but for the fanfiction part the music gets "the end of the world" drama level xD

[@Rosa37867]

one specific book that is super popular on TikTok but basically is just a plot built around tropes is 'Powerless' by Lauren Roberts, I was super excited to read this but I was VERY disappointed, sad to see that booktok is becoming a cesspool of poorly written tropefied books :(

[@be_my_druidess]

my main thing with the comparison to fanfics is that fanfics use characters and stories where someone else has already done the bulk of the actual work for you. for a ship they've already established the characters, story, and dynamic in the media they're from. you are looking for the fanfic or writing because you loved at least something about the media (aka at least thought part was well written enough to make your own content from it). not downplaying fic writers because you can do a lot of different aus and scenarios but point being you do not have to fully establish every character's motives and personality in most cases because it becomes redundant when the people reading will likely already know them. when you write an original story or even take a fanfic and take the copyrighted parts out, okay well now you have to convince me to care cause this isn't fave 1 and fave 2 from my favorite franchise of like 4 games or whatever who i am well acquainted with, it's bob and stacy who i could give a shit about cause the author didn't bother writing them well.

[@darwindatascience]

the music at II. Fanfiction had me DYING

[@Crowz0xx]

Anyone who’s had to make a story summary knows it’s literally the hardest thing to do. With screenplays there’s the “tag line,” with entire books written on how to make one. The “it’s (popular movie) meets (popular movie) is something writers hate, but it works. For me it’s about getting people to look at your work, and letting your work carry all the originality. People SAY they want originality, but are much more likely to look if you relate to the familiar.

[@Angrybogwitchviiiiibes]

I came here to make a comment about tropification being the definition of "all vibes, no plot" and now i'm stuck on Little Saddleslut 😂

[@denyse8796]

The "one word troupe" that I have boycotted is "unputdownable" Seriously?!? The publishing industry is literally a word of words, and THIS is a hot new buzzword? WTF! Do better book industry!

[@valeriavalentinazaratecard7767]

Your hair looks so beautiful!!!! Omg I missed watching your videos and loved to hear you again, I've been watching you for a couple of years now, and it makes me nostalgic to see how you are growing

[@Hyperversum3]

My problem with "tropes as ads" is less with them being the focus as much as the implications. If your book is sold as a set of tropes, that's all it will ever be perceived as. There is no chance to be surprised or to be impressed by the story or the writing itself, becuase you already knew - not because of your monkey brain doing pattern recognition but because ads told you - how things will play out. This isn't bad on its own, but it's... just giving up a lot of what makes reading novels engaging. The unique thing about reading a novel as opposed to watching a movie is that's a personal process through which you explore at your own pace a unique "world", a self-contained universe. By skipping this process of exploration what are you obtaining? Just the same, safe, pattern of events which you can consume like popcorn. It's turning the act of reading from this personal experience (regardless of what a book is, it is ultimately a personal experience by definition unless you are reading the same page with another person, and even then you would have to read out loud and stop to analyze every line together) into.... watching a sitcom, waiting for the punchline that you know will be there because it was in the title of the episode. On one hand I can't criticize people from engaging with an hobby as they want. On the other hand, they aren't actually being "free" in doing so. It's a market that has been built to sell mroe and more products, to push the next "big thing" and try to make people buy into something because of ads and FOMO. Booktok isn't "free", and people aren't naturally coming to this tropes-based reading on their own

[@SillyCelly411]

highly recommend the podcast ‘Fansplaining’ to anyone interested in learning more about fanfiction, fandom, ao3 tagging, and transformative works. Their ‘year in fandom’ episodes cover SO much, it’s fascinating.

[@TrynePlague]

hey I have an idea: Ignore TikTok exists. Works for me.

[@FOLKEN1979]

Yes, ignore TikTok. But do, by all means, get the subscription box that sponsored this video. Because that is not the most ridiculous product for anyone with an honest interest in literature.

[@TrynePlague]

@@FOLKEN1979 It seems more focused on recent books, is that right? I just started really getting into reading a year ago and have a backlog of 500 SciFi books to read, alot of old stuff.. Also, do they ship to France?

[@FOLKEN1979]

@@TrynePlague My friend. I was being sarcastic. If you like Science fiction, there is an endless well of information both casual and professional to help you pick and choose the best it has to offer. You don't need absurd products like the one sponsoring this video. Good luck with your research and enjoy your sci-fi.

[@S_Black]

Easier said than done when books these days are written specifically to appeal to the TikTok crowd. Even if you try you just can't get away from it. And it's also worrying more long term. I shudder to think what this will result in 10-20 years down the line. You can see it in YA's influence on adult books. We now have a generation of young writers who grew up reading little but YA. Most of them think they can just *say* that their character is 20-30 years old, add some sex and swearing and call it an "adult" book. Meanwhile the writing style, approach to themes and characters, depth and the tropes are still immediately recognizable as YA.

[@TrynePlague]

@@S_Black Ah, makes sense. That's one of the tags I instinctively avoid on goodreads. Guess the trend will die down some day... and no one is going to remember anything that has been written during that period. I only read SF and mostly from the 30's to 90's so I don't really get the booktok stuff. And I don't want to see for myself neither. That app is pure cancer as is SM culture in general.

[@jordanb3778]

i love the videos that explain books through images and music, i think it really helps to set the scene for the kind of emotions you'll be feeling within the book!

[@itsGabrielaCristina]

I don't want an in-depth review before reading a book. In fact, I prefer not to read any reviews! I like having some key selling points for a book (that may or may not include tropes) to know if I should look into it further. I agree that they should be jumping off points. I have never once bought a book solely on a trope, but you shout out a specific trope I have known in the past and I'll immediately be more interested in the book.

[@zoe_miori]

thanks for the vid! I go with tropes for choosing fanfiction and vibes/associations/emotional response/problematic for the books. i guess tropes work so well for fanfiction because the reader is already familiar with original world and characters, so the magic of a good book had already happened, which is always the main ingredient. Therefore it is ideal way to get what you want, or narrow the search, or even try something new. And of course not even the full list of your favorite tropes will certainly make the original story click for you. What upsets me the most in so-called tropification is that it could shift focus for writers on their approach to writing stories & for publishers in choosing which stories to publish

[@sayruh2794]

I don't mind using tropes to discuss books because in my mind, it's like when you're browsing a menu. You might go in thinking "oh I want a romance with a enemies to lovers dynamic" in the same way you open an app for food delivery being like "I want something spicy with chicken". The variations there are far and wide, and most people will do a little more digging (read the description of the book vs picking a type of cuisine) before committing, but having that quick tag of a particular trope you like might be a way for readers to steer towards (or avoid) book recs. The actual experience of reading or eating is going to be so much deeper than just those tags, but those tags are short hand to get us to find the experience we're looking for.

[@sayruh2794]

I'm personally more annoyed by using "spicy" as an algorithm safe version of "sexy". I know you're trying to avoid your tiktok getting suppressed, but if you refuse to call sexy scenes sexy, my brain refuses to take you seriously.

[@19Rena96]

@@sayruh2794 You mentioned why people do it and yet you dislike them for it?

[@sayruh2794]

@@19Rena96 never said I dislike the person doing it, and I am allowed to be annoyed by whatever annoys me. I'm old and a Tumblr vet where censoring yourself is considered rude bc it gets around blocked tags and terms

[@19Rena96]

@@sayruh2794 ofc a tumblr person.. i should have known lol

[@sayruh2794]

​@@19Rena96??? Kind of confused by the aggressive tone. Apologies if my opinion offended you? I don't think I'll be interacting with this thread anymore. Be well ✌️

[@girlmom2129]

A trope list in a short review is just what can peak my interest before looking further into a new book. I still want someone to tell me what they thought about the writing as well as the most unique aspects. It doesn't stop me from reading the synopsis because that's my real taste test. I feel bad when a synopsis turns me off because of the style or simply because it doesn't say enough. I'm pro fanfic-ification of book marketing because books are expensive and everyone should have the best chance to spend their money on things they enjoy. As long as it's not misleading then there's no harm being done. This style has helped create more readers as well as help readers, like me, get back into reading. If you don't like it, ignore it and move on.

[@chickenelafsworld7105]

I agree lol. The main issues with the “fanfiction-ication” of the publishing industry isn’t tropes or marketing or even books that are “just a fanfic” getting published. There’s a reason fanfic has lasted so long and so many people are into it, after all. The problems of the publishing industry are just being amplified through the lense of fanfic. But publishers pushing popular trends isn’t new, it’s just that now there’s a new system they can use that’s more specific. Less edited and less experienced books being pumped out by the dozens for profit isn’t new, it’s just now we notice it more because of social media. Lots of books have poorly written characters or plots or worlds, it’s just that now the fastest authors to pick up are fanfic authors, who are less used to writing without established context to their characters.

[@chriscze6153]

my favorite romance novel to this point is The Charm Offensive by Alison Cochran and it's honestly because I went into it not knowing what the tropes would be. I didn't realize the kind of romance would arise or between which characters. I get that tropes help readers get an idea what to expect, but having a surprise to know how relationships develop when entering a story is half the journey itself. spice levels and trigger warnings are great, but just like in real life, I prefer relationships to develop naturally and unexpectedly in books.

[@puddin6260]

I also find this problem with when they say “if you liked this…” “imagine a book that is*insert different books” or “if you like this vibes…”, is so annoying because tell me the plot I don’t care if your book is a combination of Harry Potter and Marni’s in the 1970s

[@oxjuliaaaxo]

I just hate arraigned marriage tropes. I use them as a warning. If the book is done well enough, tropes don’t ruin it for me. I get why others don’t like them. I just like knowing what I’m getting into before I commit and have to return a DNF.

[@misterkefir]

Just randomly clicked on this video (not into booktube at all) and actually learned a lot of very interesting and useful things that I didn't know before. Thanks so much! Going to watch some more of your videos now ;) Cheers (coffee enjoyer here).

[@RodrickMarsMoon]

As a published author, answering the question on the title, absolutely yes, tropes are kinda ruining modern literature. Specially in my country, where the majority of synopsis is no longer telling the premise, but describing the main characters in the most ridiculous way (for example, Cassie is an ordinary girl with a mysterious past, Dylan is a hot tough guy with a soft side that only Cassie knows, etc) and listing the tropes chronologically, which gives the impression of lack of effort in the writing, like "you can't think on a fresh premise, so you rely on what others did, huh".

[@juliemarie612]

Totally! Like they're just painting by number instead of actually writing genuinely. They just get a checklist of popular tropes, make up a few names, and sloppily string it all together.

[@meeph_]

I could not agree more with the end of the video ! Describing books with our emotions is the most beautiful and effective way to share it and to make people wanna read it. If someone is telling me that a book made them cry, laugh or feel anything, I can assure you I will buy that book without even wanting to know the plot before

[@kofukuuu8993]

i think that tropes kinda ruin the whole reading experience cuz' nowadays it's harder to find books that are unique first of all, and it's harmfull in the sense that writers are more likely to not get into the publishing if their book can't fit well into one or more of the common tropes. Also i just don't like the stuff that most if not every popular trope is coming with, it's not my kind of thing, so i'm way more likely to find nice books for myself that are quite old or just not newly pyblished, which sucks to be honest, i wanna find new interesting books. Also If i'm interested in a book and later on i hear someone discribe it with any of the popular tropes i instantly don't want to read it XD even if it could be actually a good book, and it shouldn't be this way.

[@jennychasteen]

I always enjoy your historical storytelling analyses! Connecting ancient folk tales to 20th Century academics to BookTokkers was a wild ride but made so much sense. 😂 My critique with the "emotional experience" book recommendation approach is that two people can have completely different emotional experiences with the same book. "Enemies to lovers" might be barebones, but at least it's pretty objective. A book that makes someone else sob for hours might not make me feel much at all, which might leave me feeling disappointed with a book that was actually pretty good. I do enjoy recommendations based on aesthetics, though! If I'm being honest, a pretty high percentage of the time, I choose what book to pick up based on the "vibe" I feel the need for.

[@treyden]

I don't think tropes are ruining books on the organic, popular marketing side. That's totally fine and understandable and I argue healthy for romance specifically. the problem is on the writing/publishing side. When authors write shallow tropes just to get picked up because publishers want trendy, then they market based only on the tropes to feed the trend, it floods the market with mediocre stories no one is happy they read. But we can't stop trying new ones anyway 😢

[@emmag101201]

this is a phenomenal video, like genius level writing, your research for your views is unmatched

[@blueberrymuffin113]

as a bookseller, i find tropes rly helpful to a) browse publishing catalogues twice a year (which takes a lot of unpaid time), and b) to recommend books to customers who are either looking for something specific, or don't have a lot of time to browse, or i can only get a quick chat with them due to it being busy and still want to grab their attention to show them a cool book - basically, it's a useful shorthand way of communication, like you said!

[@rusted_ursa]

I love the way you discuss all the nuances of these seemingly click-baity topics. You really know your stuff.

[@lexa4160]

I personally dont like it. I wish it had stayed as part of fanfiction. It literally spoils aspects of the relationships and plots are thrown aside to fit into them. I wouldnt even mind as much if the publishing industry wouldnt follow this for most of the recent mainstream realeases, or if said releases werent SO bad. I hate it because now its harder to find a book that has a nice plot instead of feeling like a bunch of tropes combined with no good development.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

In a sense, it's like with search algorithms. They are very useful for finding what you want... until the people who are MAKING the content realize that there's easy money to be made in just showing up first in the search result, so they start optimizing what they make to hit as many keywords as possible. That's kind of what's happening with mainstream publishing: they are making the book equivalent of those SEO slop sites.

[@hodaaghaei]

How many times have you watched office? How many times have you watched the hand scene? 👀 Girl! Cease fire… the attack has landed 😂😂😂

[@tommasobianchi5496]

Something I really don't like about book discussion is the absence of focus on the style of the author, his prose; because that is the book, that is the artistic expression, more then the idea, or the story, or the structure, the greatnes lies in how he bring those ideas to life: how does he use dialogues, does he use dialogues? Is he focussed on descriptions or on actions? Is he slow, methodical or bright and funny? Because the best story is not worth reading if you can't convey the emotions, the pathos, if the people reading it can't have fun or enjoyment from the page.