The End of the Stickshift - The Carmudgeon Show feat Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam HyphenScott - Ep 138

[@redlion145]

RE: the difference in take rate between BRZ and GR86. I bought my BRZ in 2019, and at the time Subaru just had better packages. Toyota nickel and dimed you for infotainment, the Brembo brakes, all sorts of little shit. Subaru had better value propositions, and they had manuals available. Toyota wanted MSRP for automatics, Subaru let my manual out the door for 7k under MSRP. Hard to see it in retrospect if you weren't shopping the cars at the time.

[@jrfish007]

That’s probably why you can’t get a BRZ now lol. Subaru dealer by my place said they don’t carry them in stock, if you want one they request for one and they get it 6-8 weeks later. You’ll have to put deposit down and your paying MSRP. I got a ‘23 GR86 at a $1600 discount

[@redlion145]

@@jrfish007 First gen was kinda slept on, then they did the second gen, basically a bored out engine and a cosmetic refresh, and all of a sudden they can't keep them in stock. They're good cars, but I'm not quite sure why there are shortages at this point in the lifecycle of the model. Maybe the cross-shopping options are fewer than in 2012. But to their question on take rate, I just think Subaru had the enthusiast spec priced better, over multiple years, than Toyota. Perhaps it relates to the Japanese govt mandate they mentioned to help out smaller carmakers (Subaru, Mazda) that Toyota is part owner of.

[@jrfish007]

@@redlion145 I can only speak to my area, but by me the two Toyota dealers always have at least 1 86 on each lot, if you want a BRZ you have to know what you want and order it through Subaru, they do not keep the BRZ in stock. I think nationally the 86 out sells the BRZ 3 to 1. Out sell is probably the wrong word, but you get the idea.

[@bawintermage8351]

Oh no Manuel is dead! He seemed like such a nice guy!

[@OldSkoolUncleChris]

“ I know nothing”

[@OpenBarGarage]

He always involved everyone everytime. Some say he stalled in life where others kept improving.

[@bawintermage8351]

@@OpenBarGarage Yes, some even claimed he was a" Stick" in the mud or an old "knob", but we know better, Manuel was always hands on, never "shifty", and always there for you in the "clutch"!

[@ms-jl6dl]

For the last time,HIS NAME WAS EMANUEL,Jesus f. Christ.

[@jimiverson3085]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWGkoZdmfr2NqZI

[@jasonp3996]

Re: BRZ vs GR86 manual take rate- Subaru will let you order whatever you like. Don't want the transmission/color/trim BRZ on the lot? Fine, order your [insert preference here] and wait for it. Easy. That's what I did. Toyota builds (well, has Subaru build) whatever GR86s they want and ships them to dealers. I'm sure they have their reasons, but there is no way to actually 'order' a GR86. You just have to find what you want (or will settle for) coming down the pipeline, whether that's at your local dealer (many had wait-lists) or researching online and calling around to other Toyota dealers that may have what you want.

[@ashyu_]

I agree that this would be a major reason for the differences.

[@Reala27]

Indeed. I have my GR 86 now. But you cannot order what you want, just have to hope you get the one you want. I ended up getting my manual GR86 from a BMW dealership of all places. lol Im glad you pointed that out, On the opposite side, Subaru wouldnt let me order one until they were taking orders. And after 5 months I got my 86 first.

[@kenchen704]

Wrong, dealers request what they want and Toyota decides the allocation

[@CrazyDavy22]

Jason: “they only made 2 manual e32s” Hyphen: searches internal hard drive and finds 3 examples of manual e32s. Who needs google? 😂

[@ggarrison1087]

ha. thays why they are a great team

[@DirtDude117]

Funny enough, I actually got offered a trade for a factory manual imported he's for my 6 speed Element

[@ingrampowell9111]

Manual E32: my brother "made" one.

[@jordanbell4420]

Manual E32 sales can't have been too low, because the manual option was continued onto the European-market SWB E38, on all engines besides the V12. They even went to the effort of giving the 740i a 6-speed instead of the 5-speed that the rest got, but I'm struggling to find one to import.

[@jakegackle7398]

I wonder how different those manual sales numbers would be if all the folks that want a manual could afford a new car. With average new car prices as they are and interest rates being insane right now, those numbers would probably be night and day different if those two pieces were flipped. I know quite a few young guys that have told me "I'd love to learn/own a stick shift if I could afford one."

[@MrLense]

This is my thinking. I would love the new BMW M2, and I hope that people buying them are speccing the manual so in 10 years when its depreciated enough to my price bracket I can get a manual.

[@sethsimpson8086]

I think there's a Stat out there thst something like 18% of all used car sales is manual. That would still obviously only be tracking sales through dealers and things like car max and not Facebook and such but if that numbers even close to right that's a pretty insane number of manuals trading hands

[@emptyshirt]

This is intentional. When the government bailed out GM and Chrysler we got revised EPA rules that punished cheap small cars, and manual transmissions. With no cost advantage to a stick shift car (and misleading MPG estimates) new buyers predicably stopped buying them. The cartel didn't forget to bail out all of the dealers with small cars in inventory, so they did Cash for Clunkers, which also helped ensure demand for big GM and Chrysler trucks in the future. Automotive "journalists" never talk about it because they don't care about cheap cars.

[@adriaanserrao2016]

M2 is a zf8 speed not a DCT

[@moneyshifters]

Zf8 better than dct and I’m tired of people thinking the other way

[@rsr789]

@@moneyshifters Based on which metrics?

[@dongordon2754]

​@@rsr789smaller and lighter, like really obviously so. Locking converter means no additional power loss compared to a DCT. ZF 8 speed is goated on all metrics

[@munkieluva]

The last generation had a DCT. Might be the confusion there.

[@adriaanserrao2016]

@@munkieluva might be but he clearly knows the new m2 is based on the new m3 and the new m3 has a zf8hp, he also knows that because he reviewed it and liked the gearbox

[@M67v]

Listening to this while driving my manual Volkswagen CC

[@andycalifornia426]

On car size vs manual-transmission: it's not necessarily that a person who's into manuals to being with will necessarily want an automatic when buying a big car. It's more that people who buy a big luxury car aren't interested in rowing their own gears to begin with. Having the car do everything for you is an attribute of a luxury car, and that's what a typical luxury car buyer is after. And normally, a big car is perceived to be more a status (which is one of attributes of a luxury car) thing, hence it attracts more luxury-oriented people.

[@emiliorescigno]

Your list in the description needs some cleanup! The Camaro, Challenger, Veloster, and Crosstrek are now all discontinued/no longer offer a manual. Also, the Z4 now offers a manual option, as well as the Lotus Emira.

[@bogusphone8000]

2017 Chevrolet SS w/6 speed. Love every opportunity to drive.

[@shanec8224]

Those are pretty cool cars

[@girtsberzins2970]

There's were some 740i e38 6speed manuals and even e53 3.0i X5 was available as manual...

[@naarealy]

You should play a trivia game at the beginning of each episoy called "CARnal Knowledge"

[@drewwrobel564]

I thought that was the Dark Web name of this pod.

[@TheGamingJuicy]

Subaru allows factory orders, you can put in an order for a BRZ exactly how you want, Toyota goes off an allocation system where they need to find a specific allocation matching the car you want.

[@RaceWithTime]

Damn, talk about a depressing episode. As someone who just sold their manual S550 Mustang GT and bought a new BMW M240i I'm now part of the problem. Ultimately though BMW doesn't offer it in manual and there just weren't a lot of other options that were ~400hp (and basically none that also have AWD). Thankfully my wife insists on owning a manual so I can still drive her Civic Si when I need to keep my shifting stills intact. Also a note on the vid...I bet the biggest reason that M3/4 has so much less manual take rate vs the M2 is that manual is only available on the base M3/4. The more powerful Competition trim and XDrive models are auto (ZF8) only. Considering they didn't off the manual on the best trim levels I'd say 20% is actually pretty impressive.

[@TonyBasuro]

Wife that wants a standard-shift car. You can trade ponies but Don't trade her in.

[@OdyTypeR]

6:15 - My dad made me drink my soda as a 50/50 mix on Sundays too. I had the option of watering down my Coke with whiskey or rum. Good times. I wonder if he ever got that carton of milk and pack of cigarettes he went out for 🤔

[@cs1375]

Similar story all the coke in my house was "watered down" with Rum. My mom thought it was funny that me and my brother asked to drink her soda and always got a mouthful of Rum and Coke (more Rum than coke). She died at 47.

[@James-pl2oy]

Growing up in the 80s-90s, reading the big three auto magazines C&D, MT, R&T, each road test summary showed manuals had better acceleration and fuel economy. The autos always lagged their manual counterparts. If you pick up these mags now, the autos are just as fast, if not faster, and just as fuel efficient. It’s just the fact that automatics have improved so much versus manuals. 3-speed autos have now gone up to 10-speeds while manuals have stayed relatively constant. They satisfy both the performance oriented driver as well as the fuel misers. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still a manual guy, but I’ve see the progress of the development of automatics

[@vercingetorige400]

well put: if the automatic on the m3/4 doesn't make you regret a dct they accomplishid their goal, sadly too well

[@memememine1]

​@@vercingetorige400 So many miss the dct. Go on g80 fourms you can find discussion on why the dct just felt better. The zf8 speed has lag on the paddles and a slurry soft upshift compared to the firm bite of the mdct.

[@stms4411]

This is relevant for all enthusiasts that are concerned only with acceleration. I am interested in fun and driver engagement. I respect the engineering associated with good modern autos, but I find them far less fun

[@jimiverson3085]

The real breakthrough for the automatics was the double clutch transmission - picking up a tenth of a second or more with each shift accounts for a lot of the difference.

[@KRAMITDFROG]

​@@stms4411Well, BMW manuals don't really do much to endear themselves to the driver. They've simply too imprecise and rubbery. I had a Lotus Elise sandwiched between an E46 and an E90 and the Lotus had the better shifter. Well, it's a sports car, right? Yeah, with the gearbox from a Toyota Celica. (Incidentally, it ended up with a bad second-gear synchro.) What does it say when a piece from a Celica feels better than those in a BMW? I had an E92 335is after the E90 and I took the DCT. There's no one saying you cannot shift for yourself. I usually do - even on the highway. I figure that if the higher levels of motorsports use similar methods of changing gears due to increased performance it offers it should be good enough for me. Don't get me wrong, I can drive the hell out of a manual, but a DCT is still faster. Really, it is just a sign of the times.

[@motoriderj6448]

My wife and I bought a 2013 Scion FRS. We looked at both the FRS and BRZ. The dealers in Northern California were the problem. Subaru had a $20k markup. Scion as a brand wouldn't let dealers do markups, however all the local dealers only ordered red cars. We had to travel 300 miles away to find a blue FRS in manual. The local dealers were in disbelief we wouldn't just settle on a car with the wrong color and transmission. Dealers do not understand enthusiasts cars and when they do, they try to mark them up to the point nobody buys them and it kills the model.

[@volvo24091]

Why is your wife in the equation?

[@motoriderj6448]

​@volvo24091 The FRS was her car. Inhave a SW20 MR2 and a 85 AE86. She was selling her MR2 and replacing it with the FRS. Why? Cause she is a kick ass wife, and masogony is a gross look, even in a Volvo.

[@therealpickleahoy]

The supra manual numbers are absolutely artificially limited by Toyota manufacturing availability

[@_que]

Hi Jason, BMW dropped the DCT 7 spd for a ZF 8 spd torque converter auto for anything attached to the S58 engines. Appreciate both of your insight. I have taken the #savethemanuals upon myself and teaching my kids, family, and my friend's kids manual transmission when possible. Hope it sticks...

[@p0intdk]

I think they stopped putting those in almost 8-10 years ago

[@BboyVReck]

I think BMW M2 G87 still have the manual option.

[@moneyshifters]

The zf8 is better than the dct shoot me

[@douglasm3310]

@@moneyshiftersyou aren’t wrong

[@mystiqblackcat]

Kia Forte: you can only get a manual in the GT trim with the 1.6T engine(201hp, 195 torque,) all of the other trims have a naturally aspirated four cylinder that makes about 147hp. I'd be interested to know what the take rate is for just the GT trim; the option there is the superior 6-speed manual or a DCT. I have a 2021 Forte GT 6-speed, I like it a lot. Two percent across all Fortes isn't surprising when you can only get them in the "performance" trim level. I believe they sell around 50k Fortes in the US each year, so that would be about a thousand manuals.

[@Havesomepizza]

Proud to be in that 74% manual for WRX’s

[@bhr788]

proud to have one of the 5% of the 11th gen Civics that are manual

[@xen0vantage542]

Same here with a ‘24 SI 🙏🎉

[@AntilleanConfederation]

Sheesh why so low.

[@moiv8]

I’m surprised it was that low, I see a lot of them in central CA. got a Red ‘23 Si here 👋🏽

[@rustyzipper19]

Ah, yes, 11th gen Si gang

[@nowiecoche]

Since we’re talking about the rarity of new Civic manuals, …anyone own a manual 5th gen Impreza?? I believe the take rate for manual 5th gen Impreza was a single digit percentage.

[@williamfischer3990]

Hyphen is wearing a Ducati shirt and yet doesn’t talk about bikes. That’s a sin Scott.

[@burnttoast9890]

He used to own an MV, Ducati and an Aprilia at the same time

[@Pccart1121]

I would pay $3.50 for a solo hyphen show just about bikes.

[@joeleonard9965]

The Melkus RS1000 is one of my 3 dream cars. They are 2 stroke Wartburg engines but they did make higher output racing variants

[@Maxxisblitz]

That Toyota WRC cheating scandal might be the first time I've known something during the show that Derek didn't. Turbos and cheating naturally go hand in hand lol.

[@2AMinLosAngeles]

As i saw in an instagram comment: never ask a woman her age, a man his salary, or Toyota if their WRC turbo is legal.

[@ZackNakazora1]

Hahaha and yes but both Jason and hyphen are known to be jdm and usdm historical illiterate. So I'll give them a pass.

[@lukadole]

The level of detail on that cheat would probably interest Hyphen I guess, the clever spring mechanism so the restrictor plate would move 5mm just by tightening the hose clamp on the air inlet to the turbo and if you remove the inlet it goes back to its original form.

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

​@@ZackNakazora1 to be fair most JDM fanboys are also very historically illiterate...... So I don't it really matters.......

[@cs1375]

I want to say I knew this because of a Jason Cammisa Icons episode or something

[@JesusRodriguez-tm8go]

I believe Toyota cheated by designing an intake plenum that would deform and let more air into the engine so the intake restrictor would not be effective. Don't quote me on it thought

[@emptyshirt]

Its the EPA CAFE rules. When the government bailed out GM and Chrysler the regulations were re-tuned to weaken competition. Small car? bitch, please. Manual? screw that. If you compare EPA estimates for the manual transmission to customer reported MPG the manual does suspiciously better than the EPA said it should. Each MPG is worth $140 of EPA fees. If the EPA testing method adds 3 MPG to a manual car (or requires stupid gear ratios to game the testing procedure) that takes all of the cost advantage out of the stick shift. When the government asked GM and Chrysler what they needed to make a profit they said "get rid of cheap cars" All the other manufacturers said "a cartel? sign me up!" The journalists said "surely this is good for us too, we'll keep quiet"

[@etienne-manuelreynaud]

I bought a new ND2 Miata last year. I was very surprised at the number of automatics available. So I guess the 60% take up rate on the manual reflects that. Although I can’t imagine why you would by an automatic… and lose part of the fun.

[@Accost2u]

The only auto you can get now is the GT trim. When I bought my ‘23 club, my dealer told me the only autos they get are pushed by Mazda corporate. No one had actually special ordered an auto in years according to them.

[@lemonpaper]

I think the automatic miata exists because the miata is one of only a few cheap convertibles on the market. It’s also the only Japanese one I can think of. This makes it prime retirement gift/midlife crisis zone. Pretty bodywork, open top, sensible cost of ownership, and perceived reliability. It’s for people who always wanted a convertible but who are generally normal pragmatic non-petrolheads. And thank god for that because those people help pay off miata’s tooling and development costs.

[@trigganometry168]

I knew this day was coming. I bought a 2022 manual Cayman and next month I take delivery of a GR Corolla Circuit. Those two cars should out live me. Rip

[@fortheloveofnoise]

must be nice.....I drive a 1998 5 speed manual Nissan Sentra

[@trigganometry168]

@@fortheloveofnoise. I’m an old fart you have many more years and many more cars to enjoy. Your youth must be nice 👍🏼

[@Trio3224]

I'm 31 and I definitely agree that in the future it'll be nothing but used and older cars for me. My goal is to just keep my 2 cars alive forever. A supercharged 2017 Toyota 86, and a stock 2020 ND2 Miata, both manual. If the 86 engine ever dies, I'll engine swap it. I don't foresee ever selling that car no matter what. But, I think one day owning cars will practically all go away. Once real self driving becomes a thing, self driving where you punch in your destination and you can take a nap on the way or read a book or etc, then I think owning cars is on the way out. Because once cars can drive themselves, there will be car subscriptions, where you can pay a monthly amount, and have a car come pick you up within 15 minutes at any time. You never have to worry about insurance, expired tags, registration, maintenance, or any of that. I think it'll happen one day and take over. How far in the future that'll be? Idk. And if that ever does happen, eventually they'll outlaw driving a car yourself. Cuz then if every single car on the road is self driving, there is no more need for speed limits, traffic lights, patrol cops, or any of that. Plus cars can go way faster too.

[@philbegas]

I wanted a gr86 but I ended up with a brz because I wanted blue and manual, and that combo just wasn't showing up in the gr86.

[@stickboie1]

I'm sure the numbers are low but there was a manual option for the Mazda 3 with the 2.0l non turbo engines. Would have loved a manual in my 2021 3 turbo AWD!

[@chrislauretano3844]

in the US specifically, the current Mazda3 (BP platform) is available with a manual only when configured as a: hatchback, 2.5 S (non-turbo), FWD, Premium trim. On the plus side: this means all manual Mazda3s 2019+ in the US have the same configuration, which makes the task of finding the elusive manuals easier. That said, they clearly didn't do a lot of testing of this configuration, as the cars also (depending on the year but most of them) feature cylinder deactivation which requires pillow soft motor mounts. Not noticeable on a slushy disconnected automatic, but on the manual it makes driving smoothly trickier. Canada gets the 2.0 sedan in the base GX trim with a manual as well, so they still offer the "college professor spec" even if it looks a lot more luxurious than a Stanza.

[@WoodAndSteel92]

I was very set on getting a manual daily back in 2020, however that rapidly changed after buying my first house in a heavily car dependent neighborhood. Having to drive to work every day (and do nearly every errand that way as well) for nearly 4 years has ruined driving for me. Most people on the road are either half asleep with no self-awareness or are actively hostile to other drivers, going way over the speed limit and weaving in and out of traffic in 5000+lb trucks, scatpack chargers and the ever-present Altima. I can only speak on my own experience, but it seems like a very common issue where people are forced to drive everywhere, roads are set up like highways and giant trucks are law of the land.

[@pepikkrul4296]

Such a rare take for a fellow car enthusiast to actually be for a walkable neighbourhoods. Less people not interested in driving on roads = more roads for me

[@2AMinLosAngeles]

@@pepikkrul4296 Exactly, leave driving for the ones who actually enjoy it!

[@whyhellothere3601]

@@pepikkrul4296 just chiming in as another car enthusiast that wants walkable neighborhoods. i don't hate cars, i love them. i hate car *dependency* where there is no other option to buy groceries, go to work, do anything in general, etc... i hate sharing the road with people that only drive because they have to.

[@TonyBasuro]

The trick is to have several different types of autos. Multiple OEMs. You can only drive one at a time-- so no worries about carbon footprint, just square-footprint.

[@HAFBeast91]

I want a 2022 Mazda 6 Turbo with a swapped manual transmission.

[@maverickphantom005]

Transplant the 2006 MazdaSpeed powertrain in it

[@ambushell5778]

the GR86 having a lower manual take rate is probably related to Toyota's idiotic "allocation" system where customers can't actually order a car to their specification. A lot of those auto cars are being "forced" on dealers by Toyota- they tend to sit around unsold if you look at AutoTrader etc. If ordering a Toyota was possible I'd imagine the manual take rate would mirror or even surpass the BRZ.

[@emptyshirt]

The stick shift is a low cost option, so it must be eliminated. Unfortunately, you can't just take away car enthusiasts favorite thing and lie about why you did. You have to fudge the numbers for a couple decades until there are too few manual lovers begging for the transmission that you can manufacture without a patent licence.

[@andycalifornia426]

Jason has an interesting perspective on transmissions. I don't think he understands that manaul enthusiasts want the manual because they want to INTERACT with the car, maybe be in control more - not for the sake of speed, but for the sake of being the DRIVER. The action doesn't have to be 99%-100% perfect. It's a bit like making your own chair with your own hands rather than buying one for 50 bucks from Ikea: not everybody's cup of tea, but some people enjoy doing it themselves -- what you get is more than just a chair, it's more than just a gear change/speed increase. So I get the criticism of some manual gearboxes/cars, but it's like: so what if an EV doesn't need gears? The fact that it doesn't need gears doesn't change the fact that I still want THAT level of control. When I used to play Need For Speed, I wouldn't use the auto mode because it was BORING as heck. Also, maybe we don't wanted perfect because perfect is not interesting. (as EV's 1 gear is perfect). We want the imperfect torque curve (as opposed to a straight line or whatever it is with EVs), otherwise it's not interesting. Perfect life is sitting in a pod serving as a battery in the Matrix, with all your needs taken care of by another entity. We don't want such life. We want to BE in the world, ACT in the world and HAVE IMPACT on things around us. Impact on the car we're driving.

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

So you represent real driver enthusiast which I'm sure Jason also has the same feelings. But to be fair most Car Bros always shouting about manuals really don't really no how to drive a Manuel gearbox either. These guys just do pulls on the street and don't even know how to double clutch, or heel toe. Or even understand the concept of "drivers feel". But Jason is correct. Finding satisfaction in modern Manuels is like forcing yourself to love a morbidly obese women. Why force yourself?

[@BrycenKauai]

What are you even talking about? The man is a subject matter expert on manual transmissions and virtues of using them. To say that he "doesnt get it" is pretty dumb and a really poor argument based on nothing. It sounds like you feel insulted by his opinion of whatever manual transmission you currently drive(or aspire to), and i would hazard a guess that your opinion is based on one or maybe two examples that you've driven? Right now I'm living with a car(03 fiesta) that has an utterly terrible manual and while its still fun to drive, it would be a hell of lot more fun with the clutch and trans from a Honda of the same era.

[@thomasxl200]

Here very early so I just want to say that I love the show and I tune in every week! Keep up the good work!

[@JohnSites48]

One of you guys needs my manual e39 wagon! 525i, silver matching thule roof box. cheap

[@danieltackett4089]

Excellent discussion; sad conclusion😢 I wanted a new manual car before they’re all gone. Plan is to keep it for 8-10 years and enjoy the engagement of 3 pedals. I was lucky to get an allocation for a Cayman GTS 4.0 in this final model year. Agreed that 3 pedals work best with a naturally aspirated engine, and in the Cayman, it’s glorious. It will share my garage with a daily driver EV, because that’s their strength. But weekends and road trips will be the realm of a flat 6 wail paired with 3 pedals.

[@AndreThompson925]

This might be the saddest episode yet. I'm holding on for dear life to my 2 manuals, mk7.5 GTI and 2022 Miata Club. I would honestly rather drive an EV than an ICE mated to an automatic transmission.

[@leviathan5207]

Absolute horseshit! A good automatic with flappy paddles is hella fun!!!!

[@stms4411]

@@leviathan5207- disagree. It’s far less interesting to me

[@Petrospect]

@@leviathan5207Yeah choosing a Volkswagen manual as your choice of manual to hold on to too is... meh. I really don't get on with my Mk5, it's just not a great shifter or clutch action, so much so it's been the tie-breaker car for me to decide that the next time I have a Volkswagen (hopefully a GTi) I'll get a DSG instead. I cannot imagine it'll be less fun, especially when we don't get a handbrake in Europe anyway anymore It's honestly made me just go "give me a Good manual" like when I sat in a new (at the time) 1 Series and the shifter felt like straight poo vs my E36

[@AndreThompson925]

@@leviathan5207 the most fun automatic is almost ALWAYS more fun as a manual. But that's just me- Sincerely a Manual Elitist Jerk. 🤙

[@leviathan5207]

Less interesting than an EV???? Yall crazy

[@bcvijasiu]

Jason, here is a question for you. Would you rather go IS500 with an automatic OR G87 M2 with a Manual?

[@bri1042]

M3/M4 have the option of AWD where the M2 does not. The third option is also bringing down the Manual take rate.

[@faust451]

Agreed and also no manual in the RWD 'Competition' version, so the manual is not an option in two of the three trim levels of the M3/M4.

[@randomkoreanguy]

I have a manual VW Alltrack and every now and again, I get poked via email by the dealer that they are interested in my car if I would be willing to trade it in, but honestly, I likely never will because they not only killed off the wagon they're now killing manuals too. What would I even get in exchange? I have zero interest in the ever expanding list of SUVs they have crowding their lot. This trend is honestly upsetting, especially considering the high take rate of manuals on GTI's and Golf R's. I also agree with all of Jason's points on why the MK8 is objectively worse (and capacitive buttons are awful).

[@macaron3141592653]

Elantra N owner in Jersey here. There are several in my area alone, though still more rare than GTI's and performance BMW's. Also the EN is louder in N mode than the Veloster and that was the car that was pulled over and ticketed in California.

[@X-11]

one of those manual miatas is mine!!!

[@normanjohnson4648]

Last July I ordered a Mazda 3 Sport GT with a manual transmission. Finally 7 months later it arrived. I was told Mazda was not offering a manual transmission option in 2024, excluding the Miata. Sad state of affairs because the Mazda 3 Sport is wonderful to drive, especially with a manual transmission.

[@jaredwilley6456]

I just came back from a joy-filled drive in my 718 Boxster T and then started listening to this video. I don’t get the 2.0 718 hate… why? Is it just the sound? Is otherworldly handling and 300HP in one of the lightest mid-engine cars you can buy not enough?

[@psfonseka]

Yeah, I have a 718 Cayman T and it's amazing with the short shifter from the GT4. No idea why they hate the flat 4 so much.

[@leotam3372]

Ceramic blocks was from that time period where engineers were trying to get the most of out engines thermodynamically. Less heat loss was supposed to improve efficiency.

[@artsohc]

I’ve actually had thoughts on the state of “future drivers” and the manual transmission recently. I’ve been wondering if future desirable cars will actually be cars that are the cusp of “old school” engine but modern-enough automated transmission. For instance, in a world where less and less people are learning manuals, I think the E92 M3 coupe with its high-revving naturally aspirated V8 (old school) with the DCT transmission will be the more sought after car. And manual-swaps will trade for auto-swaps…people buying E46 M3s and swapping ZF 8-speed autos into them. It’s a scary new world out there.

[@emptyshirt]

I think as traffic and affordablility become worse car collectors will just go away. Car enthusiasts are a nostalgic bunch. If you csn't afford a car till you are 22 and you are always trapped in traffic then you aren't going to fawn over exciting cars.

[@davidpearson7867]

About 15 years ago, while driving my brand new luxury SUV, I realized that I wasn't enjoying driving as much as I used to. I made a pact with myself that I would never again own a car with an automatic transmission, and I would never own another SUV. I sold the SUV and managed to own a series of small station wagons with manual transmissions. The EV is saving me from my personal pact as I don't think there are any good wagons left with manual transmissions. I consider a single speed transmission to be a fair compromise.

[@nothingtoseehere62357]

Europe isn't as homogenous a market as the states... For example, Finland doesn't even get GR86 or BRZ thanks to our ridiculous "temporary" car tax (that has been in effect for 70+ years) that makes fun cars three times as expensive as they are in the states so they don't even bother trying to sell them here

[@casperLikesRamen]

I’m here with my ‘21 Civic Sport Hatchback 6-speed. Wanted a hatchback, but also wanted a manual.

[@JonathanCanseco-l9j]

Ive got an Elantra N and I’ve seen a few in Northern California. Just did a track day paid for by Hyundai at Sonoma raceway with other N owners that was super dun

[@NPazdernik]

Yeah I feel like they're a little harsh on the N. No pops and sounds like a vacuum?? Not sure what they were smoking. I've owned an Audi S4 and a G70, and I've gotten far more compliments on the EN than others combined.

[@allenreeves1562]

I bought a non-SI Civic in 2017 and if I wanted a manual it had to be ordered. The dealer said that don’t make a manual without a pre-order with 90 days to delivery.

[@aaronschen9896]

See elantra Ns every now and then, hard to miss the homelyness

[@shingoose6197]

Yes, Carmudgeon victim is correct.

[@jeffgorchynski]

Average car enthusiast = "I love driving!!!" Average drive = 10mph in stop-and-go traffic.

[@daStig177]

I mean, you can enjoy eating but you're not eating the best meal you've ever had every time you sit down. But hey, if you pack your lunch with food you enjoy you're still going to have a good time. Half the fun of driving for me is that I can't be doing anything else, so it lets me reflect on my day and enjoy some tunes even if I'm at suburb speeds a third of my commute.

[@uncouver]

Asuna Sunfire was a rebadged Geo Storm. The Asuna brand was created to give GMC dealerships in Canada a captive import brand. They were all rebadged Geo's which were sold at Chevrolet-Oldsmobile outlets.

[@Nick22257]

I really hope 718s isnt as bad as people make it out to be, because as an sti enthusiast whos scared of modifying another sti, it sounds like a fantastic package.

[@neilturner6749]

I can assure you it isn’t and Camissa and Hyphen’s opinions don’t reflect the majority of car journo’s either. Their beef is the rather droney sound the turbocharged 4 cylinder 2.0 and 2.5 engines make, but no-one has any issues with the car itself nor those turbo engine’s power delivery characteristics or performance. I was lucky enough to be able to afford a 4.0 flat-6 model, which frankly is the dog’s-dangly-bits and will no doubt quickly become collectible as supply has never caught up with demand. 718 is now sold-out in Europe with production ending whilst the order book’s full in July ‘24. Electric replacement due early 2025.

[@aaronschen9896]

2.5T in 718 is about 1000 times better than an ej25 in every way. Had several ej wrx/stis and now a 2.5l 718. Jason just hates good cars.

[@faust451]

Reviews/impressions are always subjective, ultimately you should test drive to determine how you like/dislike the car. My subjective opinion - the turbo-4s found in the 718 have great power delivery and remarkable performance but the exhaust note is annoying and disappointing to me. The driving dynamics of the 718, regardless of trim, are terrific, which is exactly how I feel about the driving dynamics of the previous 987 and 981 generations. Basically I think any generation Boxster or Cayman drives beautifully. Yes there are differences between the generations, you'll read plenty of well-deserved praise for the 987's hydraulic steering for example, but for me, I don't think there is a 'dud' in the 987, 981, or 718 family of cars.

[@jonathanhiener2463]

​@@aaronschen9896The 718 is an example of why numbers don't equal enjoyment. It IS a good car, by the numbers. It handles well and is quick. But for many of us it's simply not entertaining. Those flat fours are a huge let down... and not just because we expect a howling flat six - but because the 718 turbo engines are some of the most hateful sounding mills ever fitted to a proper sports car. A good Subaru flat four of old actually sounds quite good! It's not even the engine layout that is the problem, it's the execution. I drove a 718 Cayman S on track and it was dynamically excellent, but its engine didn't just lack character, it had an unenjoyable one.

[@aaronschen9896]

I sorta understand the sound sentiment, but disagree. Power delivery character is as good as any current turbo engine. Pulls hard all the way to its 7400 rpm, and very low lag. Sound seems forgivable to me in a car that does everything else well and is durable on track. To each thier own though. Ej25 is a laggy, fragile mill that runs out of breath early. It was in cars that cost 1/3rd as much though.

[@S50Sinner]

My take on the BRZ/GR86 discrepancy is that the 86 was the more well-known variant, people want to be seen in a GR86 much more than a BRZ and so there's more interest in it from non-enthusiasts (or young almost-enthusiasts who don't have anyone to teach them and are scared).

[@amyboehm802]

A singing into to the show?!? What a treat! Thanks guys. Re: Manuals. I'm driving my hooptie eBay Boxster until it is financially ruinous to continue, and probably, even far past that, if I'm honest. Cheers all!

[@juansomarriba]

Hell yeah! Here we gooooooooo!

[@nomad6-1]

In Europe we literally buy 25-30 times more manual transmission cars than in the US which is only at 1%. Even if most of those are small cars

[@emptyshirt]

Yeah, in the US you can't even get a small car without a $1200 EPA CAFE compliance penalty. Auto journalists call that "consumer preference".

[@TornadoOfSouls777]

SAVE THE MANUALS!!

[@doylewillis9587]

If you have a manual transmission people can't steal your car because they don't know how to drive it

[@CG-yh6js]

Meanwhile in Europe 80% of the rental cars are manual! at home in Canada I have two cars and both of them manuals. Car prices in France are insane because of the environmental malus! My GR Corolla would be a 108000$usd car here!!!! dont believe me? search 2024 GR Yaris Malus!

[@emptyshirt]

That's cause Europe doesn't have the EPA trying to trick you into buying a full size truck.

[@earlmacmullin4688]

Super weird phenomenon, but there are quite a few Hyundai N models (Veloster/Elantra/Kona) on Cape Breton Island. Easily more of them driving around than MK7 GTI. The car tastes here are... odd. I have yet to be in an area where there are more Mitsubishi vehicles per-capita. Which is even more incredible considering the Mitsu dealer here is basically a shed...

[@ZackNakazora1]

Indont believe the kona N is a manual vehicle. Dct only I think the lower n line is manual capable

[@earlmacmullin4688]

@@ZackNakazora1 Yes, this is indeed true, DCT only, so it would not have been on that list. More of a comment on how there is an oddly large amount of the N models (mostly Elantra & Veloster honestly) in this area Vs. their experience on the US West Coast haha

[@maru5395]

M3 and 4’s manuals are only on the base, all comps are autos. That will skew the rate take significantly

[@michaelgregory903]

As for rev hang on modern manuals, I think the heavy ass flywheel also has something to do with it. With all these things trying to making your drive more economical and comfortable, they have gotten more boring to drive. I put a lightened flywheel in my '06 350Z and it helped some, but not nearly as much as I wanted. I don't like waiting a full second or so to go from first to second without jerking the revs down and slipping the clutch.

[@simonpoudrette]

GLI manual here. The gear spacing is veryyyy long. But still fun, with a short shift kit and a better knob

[@scottcolpitts8521]

I think the reason for the more take in manuals for brz is because of brand identity. Most of the enthusiasts that wanted manual went with the brz. Because it's mostly a subaru. Built by them, engine, transmission, suspension, etc.

[@conorallen100]

Watching this while still in-between a manual and dsg mk7 gti right now

[@wrxrcr1]

I have an explanation for the GR86 lower manual numbers, which basically aligns with Jason. When I was shopping for mine, 1 out of 4 cars being delivered to Toyota dealerships in Ohio were manuals. I asked the dealerships about it and they claimed they didn't get to choose. Toyota shipped what they wanted.

[@johnnyboyj1929]

Oh no, no clap

[@dBsdecibels]

Manuals are more common in "compromise" enthusiast cars. Buying a car is about compromises; a spectrum stretching from appliance to enthusiast. The more enthusiast, the more compromises an owner is willing to accept for the sake of enjoyment (less reliable, less practical, less comfortable, less quiet, smaller, etc.) The cars that require more compromises are easier to sell as a manual, because you're already willing to accept more compromises for the sake of the enthusiast experience, it's not that hard to justify going that much further in the form of a manual.

[@johnmurraycompton569]

I enjoyed the Canadian game show!

[@itsnevo8757]

I’d love to see you guys do a Mitsubishi episode. It’s a brand that at one point made everything people wanted and then almost doesn’t exist anymore, only building bland SUV’s that no one wants.

[@Kalepsis]

I am also a Carmudgeon Show victim. Lucky for you, I'm also prone to developing Stockholm Syndrome.

[@shingoose6197]

🤝

[@llys3742]

Pilk! 50% milk, 50% Pepsi is genuinely not bad. It was a meme floating around a bit ago. Not as good as plain Pepsi, but quite refreshing!

[@redlion145]

This comment is wrong on so many levels.

[@pereldh5741]

I love how you have my favourite Bmw steering wheel on the desk!

[@Diecastclassicist]

The Questioner is a hero.

[@Loopsrainforest]

I did my part. I bought a 2024 manual Golf R even though it’s not the best stick experience.

[@andycalifornia426]

The reason the manual is more popular in the M2 is not the size of the car per se. Ie, it's not because people can't reach the clutch pedal in the M3 or that they can't feel whether the engine is on. It's more because M2 is said to be more agile and more chuckable because of its size.

[@mbanck]

I would say the main reason is that the M3/M4 is available with M-XDrive and people like those for getting off the line fast...

[@lukadole]

@@mbanck And isnt only the base model available with the 6 speed, the Competition and the CSL are zf8 speed only?

[@mbanck]

@@lukadole Yes - only the RWD base model is available as 6MT. As soon as you want to have X-Drive, more power (Competition) or CS/CSL you need to go automatic. Which is IMO the more important factor for take rate than pedal placement or chassis. And conversely, as the automatic is not a dual-clutch like Jason claimed, the manual take rate is probably higher than it otherwise would be (enthusiasts still hate the ZF8 for the M cars).

[@stevelovescars]

The question for me is not take rate, it should really be average days supply of manuals. If they don’t make many and people snap them up right away, it isn’t a lack of demand. Try to even find a Civic Si to buy, as an example. They just aren’t out there and dealers had large markups when they did have them. And have you seen the difference in resale value for cars with manuals? They seem to get a premium on the market in almost every case in which they were available.

[@brandonherrera2891]

Awesome, awesome episode.

[@rogerdalton1549]

Just bought a 2024 coupe with a manual. Great car.

[@gt_grandtouring]

Here in Japan manual sales are consistently over 50% IF the car is a small or light sports car (inclu Miata). But are lucky to see double digits for bread and butter models (Best stat was for the Honda Jazz/Fit. Recently an annual sales stat was 0.5% manual). However the moment the model starts having leather seats and a curb weight above 1600kg it invites auto buyers. My fav cars have always been GTs for which I don’t mind an auto IF it hasn’t got a hundred modes and shift patterns. But a few smart decisions in how it behaves.

[@emptyshirt]

In the US the fuel economy regulations have made it impossible to make a competitive subcompact car. You have to get 49 combined MPG out of a Honda Fit to avoid a $140 penalty per MPG. Auto journalists don't mind, cause the fuel economy rules don't hurt the expensive cars.

[@monaro383]

I bought the wife a M140i in ZF auto.... because the manual felt like it would snap into two the first time I did a burnout....I only drive the ZF in manual mode on the paddles now....if I had a CTSV, it would be a manual because it's built for a truck engine!

[@Chris012345671]

I have a manual 718. Sounds like Jason really hates my car lol.

[@fcbandwagonlona7315]

BMW is bringing the manual transmission to the current Z4 M40i (b58). Kind of a miracle that they are so late in the product cycle, even with the Supra manual existing. Rumors say they did tweaks to the transmission for better feel (I guess kind of what Toyota did), and the suspension is getting tweaked as well and unique only to the manual models. Will be interesting to see what the tweaks entail, maybe it'll be like a secret "ZHP" -ifying the car. How much I dream to own one, but no way I can afford one soon, and I fear so few of them will exist in the used market years from now that they'll command a pretty penny.

[@garyonnen7634]

Look up how Toyota cheated. Now they know how to do it.

[@nathanhills5032]

On the BRZ GR86 difference, Subaru built me the car as I wanted it (manual), Toyota dealer would only sell me if they were allotted it. And Toyota corporate decided how many manual or automatic would be made.

[@radugeorge4928]

Regarding the GTI, the facelift now has lit-up climate control, also its not laggy any more.

[@jue_boy4135]

Someone on instagram the other day was asked on their automotive hot take. They said "unless you have a disability if you are a car enthusiast you should always take the manual" Im going to change that to driving enthusiast as for some aspects of car enthusiast (drag racers, cruisers) a manual just doesn't make sense. Also going to say "where available" because some great cars and market segments you just can't get a manual.

[@johncallahan118]

Hi, I don’t remember the Mazda 3 manual quantity. Someone has it please ?

[@T100ley]

Do these take rates include cars for rental car companies?

[@HandsomeAlex25]

I fully agree that Autos that you have to fight to do what you want are anathema to enthusiastic driving. I'd rather have an EV. Above all, I'll always prefer a manual - as it makes me a better driver because I have to be.

[@squee147]

I've had two accidents in the 20 years I've been driving, both were in my mom's automatic accord because I wasn't engaged in the driving experience. Never had an issue in my dad's manual Subaru, and I've only owned manuals since. A bad shift is an early warning system that you're not paying enough attention. On my 4th car, a tuned 2016 5 door (for the car seat in the back) cooper s. Plan on driving it until the wheels fall off.

[@nickzhang7862]

Goooood morning Carmudgeons!

[@JesusRodriguez-tm8go]

Over here, in Spain it feels like they give i30n's away. You them quite a lot for a fun hot hatch, and I'd argue most of them are manual

[@roquemocan]

About the Isuzu ceramic diesel engine: Isuzu was the second highest manufacturer of diesels worlwide (after Mercedes)

[@ElectricusTus]

To add to other comments regarding some customer preference for BRZs, the FR-S only had amenities like heated seats on *some* of its special editions. A guaranteed way to get the nicer car would have been to just order it from Subaru, rather than just hoping Toyota sends a car close to what you wanted.