Cards that Change Your Deck's Power Level | The Command Zone 584 | MTG EDH Magic Gathering

[@commandcast]

What do you think? Can a single card change a deck’s power level? What cards do you think are just too powerful to be in a 6 commander deck? Any cards we mentioned that you disagree with?

[@Byteside546]

Sol Ring! It 'moves the needle' of the average deck even more than mana crypt due to how widespread it is. Going from 0 to 1 piece of turn1 fast mana is a lot bigger jump, but admittedly it seems the power does compound with each additional piece. Our pod has removed it (or any reusable turn1 fast mana from our decks) and it has had a wildly enjoyable result on our deck building variety and meta of play below CEDH.

[@crawdaddy1234]

@@Byteside546I think the discussion is about moving the needle of expectations.

[@Cook_king3]

Gaias cradle

[@mrTjstephens1]

I belive in the Zach from commander social says "My cards maybe a 10 but i play like a 3" Dana Roach has called it an X factor you can put all the powerful cards you want but at its core does the deck synergize? Dana will pick cards that are likely going to be considered a 4 but when paired with this commander the card itself becomes a 10 Player skill Deck building skill Card quality Power level I build Josh's deck and play it I'm not a skilled player i will admit this. Hand me a cEDH deck with no primer or knowledge of the deck i might accidentally win but its unlikely.

[@markdziamski4859]

Better question would be “Can drawing a single card change a deck’s power level. I have Mana Crypts in a few decks and I play many games where I never see it. I agree that having redundant affects can change the power level of a deck but not a single card

[@DrewskiTHEDudeski]

The card that changes your decks power level the most is the CREDIT CARD.

[@Npocommander]

Or debit card

[@raiderdevellian5752]

This comment needs to be pinned

[@Byteside546]

Proxy your home games! Don't spend $300 on something you won't know if you like playing

[@mikenerdcore]

True sis, very true, sipping that tea ☕

[@Hellsing7747]

😂 100%

[@johnwertz7564]

I really think explaining the power levels of the game knights decks a bit more would be really helpful in the the game knights episodes.

[@robboomsma6739]

That would add some great context, or even ranking decks they played as part of these explanations

[@imanujakku]

I’d say most game knights decks that aren’t precon battles are 8s. Jeskas will, rhystic , tithe and dockside are all routinely in decks. Theres almost no two card combos . The only one I can think of was post had the godo helm but had the helm in his hand in the kamigawa episode but they do push the deck when post of Cassius play.

[@toofpyk3923]

There's a KZbin show called 'Worst Possible' by CovertGoCrew that lets the table know what the worst thing your deck can do right at the beginning, and I have started doing that at my FNM because I feel it's good for the MTG culture to be more transparent and less GOTCHA. It makes me feel less bad about winning with a combo when I have told the table how I plan to do that. I feel bad when they meta game that transparency and change what they were planning on playing lol

[@aaronriley646]

I think having a quick Rule 0 discussion (including Power Level discussion) would benefit Game Knights a lot but I understand why it's not there due to the heavily edited nature of that show. It should definitely be in Extra Turns though.

[@Helibrrrrr]

@@imanujakku lol if their decks are 8s then the scale needs to go up to 20

[@CraigStevenLikesStuff]

A lot of these cards qualify for me as 'I'm not gonna buy one... but if I pull one from a pack I'm definitely going to use it."

[@sethburkhead6720]

I think that's fine until your running 10 cards like that.

[@phillipfry8141]

that's fair. you get the hype whenever you play it to 'member-berry when you pulled it :D

[@RealBakedTahu]

I've pulled Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tide, and Sylvan Library. I intentionally run them in my jank decks to keep them playable in my pod.

[@UltimateLoaf]

I run my Mana Crypt that I got from a Lost Caverns booster on my birthday. I usually die first as a result, but I'm not too fussed.

[@silentj0y]

This is exactly how I feel- Bought a box of Commander Legends to draft with friends- we pulled a Jeweled Lotus. Would I ever pay ~$90+ for one? Nope.... But will I use it in any deck I can now? Absolutely lol

[@WushuTaz]

Discussing deck power levels certainly gets convoluted when discussing individual cards.

[@dialupsyndrome1910]

You wanted it, well here it is: Josh Lee Lee Kwai

[@jamesevalentine]

Honestly the 6 vs 7 vs 8 differentiation was super helpful. Will definitely be useful in pregame discussions and hopefully encourage others to similarly share

[@Zombi3NinjaKing]

I disagree. They talk about decks are usually playing combo wins at 8 (which I agree with) but then label things that aren't necessarily indicative of combo decks. I have a Saruman of Many Colors deck that I wouldn't classify as an 8 because it has such a dumb/slow game plan, but by their definition, would absolutely be classified as such. There is 1 combo that involves 3 different cards that aren't the commander to pull off. Maybe it is just a bad deck concept, but it is running all of the hallmarks of a powerful deck just to be able to work. I wouldn't consider it to be anywhere close in power to my Lord Windgrace deck. Same with Rachel's Pheldagriff deck. I'd say it more competes with the lightly upgraded precon tier more than anything else.

[@Sinazok]

They actually cover this type of exception in the video. Weak decks that require powerful cards just to raise them up to a 6 or 7 can be justified. You just run the risk of people not believing you.

[@8nykspree]

​​​@@Zombi3NinjaKingdude , this video was next level terrible. They are literally just patting every johnny come lately on the head who smashed together the bulk rares and uncommons from their trade binder and thinks their deck is a seven and get upset when they play an actual seven and accuse it of being cedh lol. You only have to go as far as the edh power level chart to see that a 7 is classified as "PLAYING WITH POWER". Idk wtf narrative they're trying to push here with this video trying to knock 7s down to run of the mill dumbed down casual decks.

[@jhemp]

I don't really like numbers because it misses a key point. Even an absolute trash Grand Arbiter Augustin deck is going to make people upset. It's more the strategy of the deck and speed at which it functions. Like playing a Meren into a Kunaros regardless of the power level is going to be unfun... Likewise Slicer, hired muscle thats using fast mana is going to make playing even a really good control deck struggle. In my experience the best commander pickup games are when people play decks with strategies that aren't at odds with one another and have a similar mana curve. The number thing is just too subjective. Otherwise who cares that much. I play X deck and it went off before you got your chance? Cool let's try again and I'll use something a little less potent. Honestly it's impossible to know who will like what too early on.

[@ownageDan]

the whole 1-10 power level scale is misguided imo. a much more objective metric is "how many turns does it take you on avg to threaten a win/achieve an overwhelming boardstate when unopposed".

[@tylerbrooks6063]

Love, love, LOVE this. It's taken me about 5 and a half years of playing EDH to figure these things out, but I very much am in the same boat as you guys here. I don't want to play things that just make certain opponents unable to play anymore. It just isn't fun, at all.

[@SendReinforcements]

I think fast mana, “perfect mana bases” (few to no tap lands) and tutors are the most notable influencers of power level. The ability to generate lots of mana early, having color fixing that doesn’t enter tapped, and tutors to get the pieces you need rather than hope you draw into them can turn even a janky deck into a significantly more powerful deck.

[@eXJonSnow]

I agree with this a lot. I bought the Sliver pre-con and, like many people, was upset about the lack of good reprints and the awful mana base. Playing it sucked as almost very land was a tap land. I added in some mana fixing I already had with some improvement on the ramp, put in a couple of shock lands, and added in the 5 Panorama fetch lands. Those changes alone greatly increased the power level of it and that speed at which it played, and that’s without putting down serious money to get a fully upgraded mana base. In 3+ color decks, revamping the mana base is very impactful

[@SendReinforcements]

@@eXJonSnow That sliver deck was so disappointing. The slivers themselves were fine, the deck was just so SLOW because of the lands! I played against a few other precons and was just getting smothered by the All Will Be One boros deck and the Dihada deck.

[@leifdering3600]

I think everybody should proxy perfect mana bases. No one should feel that their decks power is held back because they don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just to have good lands.

[@doylerudolph7965]

@@leifdering3600 Alternatively, I think people should treat fetchlands specifically as high power level cards. Playing 3+ colors SHOULD have a drawback, because you get to have access to a much larger and more powerful card pool. Casually banning fetchlands (much like fast mana and tutors) would make lands like the painlands or filterlands significantly more playable, as basic typing doesn't matter nearly as much. Also, players play too few basics.

[@AnonymousProffession]

Literally this. The difference between cedh and casual is three things: fast mana, tutors, and efficient win conditions. Without the first two the third gets a lot worse and without the third, decks still feel extremely powerful. Any white deck running the one ring, mana crypt, and enlightened tutor feels oppressive if your opponents are all rocking slightly modified precons.

[@JustusStewart]

Really appreciate the distinction between cards that make your deck more powerful vs. cards that *imply* you’re playing a powerful deck. Haven’t heard that articulated quite so clearly before.

[@FrostGiantStudios]

Thanks for showing Stormgate some love, JLK!

[@NotDarthThanaton]

This conversation is definitely a useful tool for people who play random games at a local game store (LGS) and the rule 0 interaction.

[@PauperPrincex]

If only they'd watch it. The people most in need are the least connected.

[@SeraphSilverstar]

I think this is THE best discussion about power levels I have yet seen. I like the idea of identifying cards that might bump your power level and counting them up and seeing the interactions to determine the overall power level of the deck is a solid approach

[@travislannoye8244]

I don't always agree with everything on this show, but this particular episode just resonated perfectly with me. It was awesome to hear you guys give a generic breakdown of what each power level means to you, illustrate the caveats that naturally go with a ranking system like this, and then to get a "fairly comprehensive" list of most of the boogeymen in the format. I will be referencing this episode over and over again in the near and distant future as a guideline. Thank you so much for putting it together!

[@Rattenstahl]

I love these discussions. I literally changed the board wipes in my deck to be one sided so that they are actually serving the purpose, and not just wasting time. Thank you

[@matiamrobbins3036]

This video is a great argument for the banning of crypt, lotus, and dockside (from a gameplay perspective)

[@gilbertoriveramedia8437]

Adding Rachel was the best the show has done. Brought me back to the channel.

[@zerorequiem42]

She is great, yeah.

[@Helibrrrrr]

but she doesnt know what shes talking about half the time tho

[@MisterJ355]

​@@Helibrrrrr oh yea? And you di

[@nerdaccount]

I think she is amazing too! She is a very effective communicator!

[@Helibrrrrr]

@@MisterJ355 way more than you and her combied kiddo

[@theaeskey2502]

This why number power levels aren’t a great indication because they are subjective. Instead of numbers I personally think you just be honest about having tutors, fast mana etc in your deck in rule zero.

[@thedoctorbob7]

Well, the problem with that is there is also a wide range of power levels that include those kinds of cards. Having tutors and fast mana in your deck doesn't mean your deck is as fast or as powerful as mine.

[@tking5218]

As a cEDH player that dabbles in casual, I agree with this. Numbers for power levels are up to interpretation. The correct questions to ask would be "are we playing infinite combos?", "What kind of ramp are we playing?" (Talismans, Dorks, Fast Mana), "What kind of tutors are acceptable?".

[@caedis_]

A decent way to determine the power level of a deck is what turn do you usually win by/get to the end game.

[@eXJonSnow]

@@tking5218 Yeah, win-con and combo potential can really mean a lot more than having a bunch of good cards. I bought and upgraded the WUBRG Sliver pre-con, but even with a perfect mana base, it’s probably still not as strong as a Thassa’s Oracle blue combo deck

[@kaitlynstewart7672]

​@@caedis_ That can be VERY hard to determine depending on the deck type.

[@originalflitch]

All the knowledge I soaked up is so appreciated. Thanks you guys.

[@HeyApples]

Without hyperbole, one of the most important videos the channel here has put out in years. A really nuanced, nuts and bolts discussion on the characteristics which make decks powerful. I know so many people who would benefit by watching this. Also opens a good tangential discussion on the ban list. I have several times posed the question to commander groups if they would let me use my Mox Jet instead of my Mana Crypt. Most agree the jet is the "power down" but won't agree to it because the letter of rules. It really breaks a lot of brains when they dig into it. Also speaks volumes on the legality of Mana Crypt.

[@mathewdebol923]

I think what a deck is designed to do has a much bigger impact than the individual cards in it. I’ve got a solid casual deck with a Mana Crypt and a Jeweled Lotus in it, but it would NEVER be confused for a high power deck

[@eXJonSnow]

Totally agree. Win-con and how it’s achieved are something that seems to fly under the radar. Combat or burn focused decks, even with great mana bases and fast mana, are almost always going to be inherently worse than combo decks.

[@kelseyo402]

I really wish the community could reconfigure the power levels. If a precon sits at 5 anymore it really feels like most of the scale is being wasted. People don’t really build decks worse than precons that often. I’d be interested to see a scale more so: 1- Jank 2- Average Precon 3- Powerful Precon/Minimally upgraded precon … 9- Old or Tier 2 cEDH 10- Tier 1 cEDH

[@avall0nNn1992]

I always rated a percon at about a 3 and I agree it feels right.

[@stirlingsmith2744]

I agree. I feel like that especially once people are talking about "7.5" power level or a "high 8" shows that there needs to be more granularity

[@Chiemkim]

I don't agree with putting cedh on the same scale as casual edh. Because if you're playing cedh then you know you're playing cedh. This is the same reason why a pile of random cards also doesn't belong on the list which is pretty much anything below a precon. Fundamentally they are two separate entities and cedh decks are built from an entirely different philosophy towards a self-contained meta. There's no rule 0 and the two aren't meant to be in the same pod. Cedh being on the scale also has the implication that you can upgrade a deck into a cedh deck which isn't true because you would be essentially just building a different deck. i don't like the number scale system in general but if I had to design it it would look something like this. 1 - Awful Precon 2 - Average Precon 3 - "Good" Precon. I have good in quotations here because precons do not have good deck construction and even the "good" ones have plenty of chaff in them. 4 - Lower end of mid power 5 - Mid power - Where decks are optimized enough towards a strategy but aren't fully optimized. Infinites and combos are expected but not efficient. 6 - The upper level of mid power 7 - The in between of a mid power and a high power deck. Almost a transitional period of power where it's going to wipe the floor with mid power decks but isn't good enough to hang in high power casual. 8 - The lower end of high power casual. High power assumes every deck at every level of high power is highly optimized. Where in high power a deck goes I believe is determined by the quality of the strategy. For example every tribal beatdown deck that isn't Marwyn the Nurturer, Yuriko, or Winota would fall into the lower end of high power. Because in high power decks that just tap out to make big creatures you turn sideways aren't going to fly. The most you'll get out of a low power strategy like stompy beatdown is the lower end of high power casual. 9 - High power casual 10 - The upper end of high power casual

[@tscarable]

This is my issue people have 3-4s call them 7s. If these cards make your deck not a seven then to me you play 2 and 3 power level decks. 8-10 are cedh decks to me.

[@tscarable]

​@Chiemkim you have no idea what cedh is. Plenty of cedh decks are BAD vs casual decks. Plenty have a game plan that makes them fair vs casual decks.

[@bobbye4369]

The is probably my favorite episode you’ve ever done. Thank you for so succinctly discussing several cards and topics that have been on my mind so well and the ramifications they cause to a game!

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

Interesting new set. I would love to see more rules videos. They are always nice to help players learn and improve their games.

[@digitalworldsvr7881]

Oh wow, I just finished watching your video today. So cool to see you on here. And yes, more rules episodes!

[@ThisIsACommanderChannel]

@@digitalworldsvr7881 Thanks so very much! I watch a lot of other Magic content creators but I don't comment all too much since I'm typically late to watching the videos.

[@maruhto3508]

So what I gathered from this very entertaining and informative talk: play counterspells, especially mana drain!

[@quintonmacdonald6683]

I think this discussion is super interesting. I don’t know if I agree that a SINGLE card will jump a deck from 5/6 to an 8 but when a few of these get together I do believe it jumps the power. I think the major question for me is tutor-ability. If you can find that one powerful card each game I think it changes the power level but sans tutors I dont think it changes it that dramatically

[@chrisperrell2843]

Spot on. One Dockside in a deck of 99 cards is good, but the key is the 5 tutors to find it; that's what makes a deck much more powerful. Density of tutors and fast mana / ramp is the key

[@webbc99]

@@chrisperrell2843 but why are you even running Dockside if it's the only super powerful card in your deck? It just makes it so that every now and then you instantly win and the rest of the table just sighs and has a bad time.

[@chrisperrell2843]

@@webbc99 it's a good point, but there are loads of insta-win cards in the game. The table will sigh more if every game you use one of your 5+ tutors to get the same card. Change Dockside for Craterhoof - if every game you splurge out creatures and then natural order, worldly tutor, or finale of devastation into it or demonic tutor a triumph of the hoards or akromas will that would also get a sigh from me. For me a deck is only an 8+ (hate the numbering, but it is what it is) if it is consistent. A powerful card that you might draw once every 10 games does not make the deck powerful in itself.

[@StoneSourFanBoy]

​@@webbc99if you wanna play it in your new krenko from Ravnica MaKM, why not ? It's a goblin and it makes treasures, so it's a perfect fit in the deck and doesn't break the flavour of your tribal deck. There will always be some cards that are better than 95% of your deck, the cards that are wincons for example, it's totally normal to have some in your deck and doesn't make your deck an 8 or something broken. I would say that the problem would be having a deck where all the cards feel the same, none of them is really powerful or make waves, because I would ask you if the deck is even capable of winning.

[@rayzur1076]

I like the longer podcasts. These are nice to listen to in the background

[@manwithabasicprofilepic]

The two biggest things I think that affect power level are fast mana and the effect of your commander. Being able to get a five drop commander out turn two is huge, especially if your entire deck revolves around what they do. With the Commander effect, if it’s an affect that doesn’t take a lot of set up to get going, like my Radagast the Brown deck, you just need to drop them and watch the value go.

[@strandededucation622]

I'm watching this to see what to add to my Commander Decks, Thank you so much Command Zone :)

[@RoninRose541]

I disagree with the whole numerical power scale. It’s completely subjective. a seven in one playgroup could be a five or even a nine in another depending on what playgroup it is so just seems redundant to me. Just be honest about running infinite combos and things like Thoracle

[@novasnotvibing]

your use of the word redundant does not make sense in this instance.

[@richardrahl1001]

Overall, I loved this! Recommended the video to a friend who said y’all were basically 100% on everything said. Personally: Carpet of flowers- if not blue players, or just 1, it’s very of worthless. Maybe it just the pod of mostly 2 colors or green and black primary in 3’s players I play against, but too few people play blue if not playing 3&5colors or below 8/8.5 decks to even warrant pulling it out of my rare’s book. Jeska’s will- we have seen Jimmy(?) wiff 2x (and i think another guest wiff’d as well) on Game Knights out of 5-6(?) times it played. (I also just got into commander recently from modern, so I started watching 4 channels pretty back to back and mixed, so sorry if I’m mixing the channels). Comparing cyclonic rift to it, where you can wiff on mana and/or wiff on top 3 is not comparable. Compared to smothering tithe or tefari’s protection, how often does tefari’s have a chance of still taking damage? Never. (To be fair, I don’t own one, so not a defensive argument for my stuff.) Aura Shards- I do make sure not to play against a tron/enchant deck by declaring it’s in the deck. If they are full enchantment, I’ll just swap it out for a primeval light. Turn 7/8/12+ aura shards is barely targeted removal against enchantment synergistic win cons (because I still need to get it and then draw a creature) & less about turn 3/4/5 sol ring and mana rock removal.

[@bloodyjester4284]

It's actually very easy to place Cyclonic Rift, and you guys did it correctly. It's in a category by itself, because when you Overload it, you're suddenly at a table by yourself, because no one likes or wants to play with you anymore.

[@xXtheONEandONLYXx]

Certain cards like Cyclonic Rift, and Farewell, should ONLY be played when you are about to close out the game. Otherwise, they prolong/ ruin the game. I hope all Commander players will agree with me on this. There are plenty of games I have Cyclonic Rift in hand, with the mana to overload it, and do not do so. Same with Farewell and other cards like them. Finding the right time to play a spell is something you develop and learn with time. That is skill.

[@tchazgo]

Tysm for the channel it’s great seeing the content about so many aspects of the game. That helps to expand the understanding of the usage cards and strategies. ❤ pls keep it up 😊

[@ElerosseDaGoblyn]

I think something akin to Canadian Highlanders points list could help quantify a general power level for finding balanced tables. It’d be another cumbersome thing to know but it might make for better matched tables

[@Bloodchilling_mtg]

There’s a way to do this without the complexity of remembering the point system. I do it in my rule 0s saying, “I’m playing X commander and I run A, B, and C cards. I shoot to win around turn Y, with Z.”

[@randomninja9898]

loved the video, you guys are really the best i think orcish bowmaster is one card that changes the game and could be mentioned.

[@shanedixon6627]

I'm so excited to see Game Knights Live! Picked up my tickets last month for Magic Con!

[@derekgarcia3069]

This was an insightful video. I've played MtG on and off since the late 90's, but only really got back into a few years ago with Commander PreCons with my son (we realized even at 2 player we prefer the scale of Commander). We only started tweaking those decks about 4-6 months ago as some were just underpowered even in our home "meta". We decided we want to start building our own decks, and many of the cards I've looked at showed up in this list. I knew they were powerful obviously, but it was your comments on how the other decks may not be able to deal with them at all. I expect some we will still add, if only to the odd deck (as a primarily B player, I love the idea of Bolas's Citadel, K'rrk, etc), but I'll definitely give some more thought to when/if we add some of these cards. It's not just power level, but as was mentioned, i want to avoid ever deck feeling the same (even if I have ideas for 4-5 Orzhov decks in my head, lol)

[@davidsifford]

Dockside first appeared in the Sevinne precin didn't it? And that deck, even with a few upgrades struggles to hit your definition of a seven, let alone an eight.

[@SolidFoxHoundSF]

That deck sucks so bad hahahaha it’s a 4-5 even with dockside

[@DaxAtk]

My understanding is someone building a deck to include Dockside is also probably including ways to abuse it like blinking or reanimating, at that point the deck becomes an 8. This list seems mostly about using these individual cards as a focal point for a strategy makes that deck stronger than an upgraded precon. Prime example being Ad Nauseam, if your goal is to get maximum value out of it the rest of the deck ends up being an extremely fast/mana inexpensive combo which immediately sits at 8/9.

[@rickmorty2893]

wrong

[@joshholmes1372]

Yeah, that deck is a 1-2 and dockside makes it a 3.

[@TiltedSquare]

I don't think a single card can change the power level of a deck. How the deck is built, their synergy, and their interaction is what ultimately contributed to a power level. If someone runs a Mana Crypt and the rest of their deck is jank and has no cohesive game plan, there's no way it'll even scratch what I consider a 7.

[@DianthusSpec]

I actually play a Simian Spirit Guide in my Kibo Uktabi Prince Deck because it's an Ape and it can help me bring out Kibo one turn early, which is helpful as the Deck heavily relys on having my commander out. But in that instance i don't feel like it's too strong, it feels much more like a one time use turn one ramp (like utopia sprawl or wild growth). Also i can't really go off immeadiately, i need some more apes out first, get the banana game going etc.

[@cordeliabristol3335]

I think "top end of casual" designation is the key point. For lots of folks there is no difference between "top end of casual" and CEDH (I think wilful ignorance is to blame). I would love to play more "high power casual" without auto losing on turn three. I think that skill/playstyle are also key layers to this conversation.

[@tking5218]

I play mostly cEDH these days and turn 3 wins are usually in that realm. This being said, there is a difference between high powered and cEDH. High powered usually wins turn 5-9 IMO because it's a noncompact combo. Compact combos include the following for cEDH (Underworld Breach, Dockside Extortionist, Thassa's Oracle, Necropotence, Ad Nauseum, or a one card outlet that synergizes with a commander). Fast mana in my opinion is overall telltale sign for power level scaling followed by tutors for casual decks.

[@phillipfry8141]

agree, and personal metas develop within a play group, i think a group of players eventually power-creep themselves on accident. You start casual 7 or 8 years ago, but now the group fetches into shocks or dual lands minimum, things like that. You understand why you have a sol ring and every deck has one, everyone who runs white has their copies of swords to plowshares, obvious things like that eventually get stronger.

[@lonewolf975]

I sat down at a pod and said i had a high power casual deck i wanted to play if everyone else had a deck that could match and got mocked for the rest of the night treating me like i was just a cedh player just trying to pubstop. My deck runs no fast mana or ramp beside thrasios as one of the commanders.

[@buddieschiknful]

I have long hated the number system for EDH power level. Like has anyone ever come up to a table and said "I'm playing a 3 today"? Our play group has moved away from that metric and now I uses the following as our way of grading power level: unedited precon, edited precon or untuned build, high powered (some fast mana and tutors), and cEDH (all fast mana and tutors).

[@Npocommander]

Most of mine are self builds I don't use tutors in most of them, no mana crypt, some dark rituals no jeweled lotus,

[@ZeratoGZ]

Literally what my playgroup does as well, the number system is really weird and really does not work whatsoever. It's way more easy to just say "I'm playing a high powered casual deck" and just play.

[@Npocommander]

@@ZeratoGZ I like how the worse possible commander show discuss the best pieces and what they can do

[@salmathe8bitSamurai]

I love when my playgroup is like, 'let's all play a precon', implying they'd all be on the same power level. The pregame discussion is what's most important

[@sambrown9475]

​@@salmathe8bitSamurai but not all precons are built the same

[@FriendlyNewt]

This made my week. I like cracking packs so I'll have a deadly rollick in a 7. But you did make me feel most of my decks are trending towards an 8. You talked a lot about 7-8 but you could do another episode about 6-7 or even 7-6.

[@Tempest-Official]

HAVE A RULE 0 DISCUSSION. I think that is the biggest thing. I let people just look through my deck so they know what they are in for. I also make it a point to go over my win con. I think people should know if you run tons of fast mana, combo out on early turns or run a heavy stax build. Try to promote a healthy game state before the actual game begins.

[@Clayray94]

I think we need to shift the scale a bit. I mean lets be honest, with the current way people talk about the scale what does a 1 deck even look like? Can it even play it's cards, is it only meme decks that don't care about winning? I would argue that any deck that is a total meme and doesn't care about winning is a zero, it isn't even on the scale. IN order to be on the scale I think it needs to be at least playable and able to win. So if thats the case is a 1 just 99 random cards in a commanders colors? I think the low end of the scale needs to be adjusted and we need to start thinking about pre-cons as generally more three's than 5's. They're functional decks that work but aren't in any really hurry to get to the end of the game. Then we'd have more room for the middling decks that have a few good cards people pulled but the overall deck is still a 5 that with a perfect setup can sometimes look like a 6 or 7.

[@salmathe8bitSamurai]

Sol ring is just as bad as mana crypt. When it's played early, that player jumps ahead just like mana crypt. Just bc it's in every precon doesn't make it less aggregious

[@signspace13]

While I agree Sol Ring is nearly as good as mana crypt, it can't be denied that *everyone has one* and that this does mitigate its power level a bit. Mana crypt is so good because it breaks that balance, so unless everyone else *also* has Mana crypt, you are the only player that essentially gets 2 Sol rings, and in a singleton format, it's all about that consistency.

[@salmathe8bitSamurai]

I get that but it's assuming that everyone is playing sol ring and I don't think mana crypt is op just bc of when it's played with sol ring. It's powerful in its own right. My point is a turn 1 sol ring is a gamechanger in the same way mana crypt is. So saying sol ring doesn't boost your deck in the same way doesn't make sense.

[@signspace13]

@@salmathe8bitSamurai I agree, but what the video, and commander pods in general, are considering is an **average** power level. So something that everyone has doesn't boost your deck beyond the average, by definition. If no one had Sol Ring, and you played one, it would be a massive boost, and taking it out of your deck is a similarly massive decrease, unless it is replaced with something equally good, like mana crypt.

[@salmathe8bitSamurai]

I like the convo in the vid, it's nearly impossible to determine 'average' power. Even pre cons are not created equal. Throwing a mana crypt in a casual '8' doesnt push it to cedh level. My main point is one card imo doesn't boost your deck to that degree, that'd be a 10% gain to go from a 6 to 7 from 1% (one card) of your deck. And I think some cards like sol ring are dismissed because of access/cost, when the discussion is what impact a single card has on the deck overall. And access aside, sol ring is up there with crypt.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

The main difference is that a deck with a Sol Ring may or may not have a Mana Crypt (probably not due to cost)… I have never seen a deck with a Mana Crypt that did not also have a Sol Ring.

[@calebbrown1068]

Working on a Slinger/Storm deck atm and the comment on Storm almost always being 8s by necessity (for reasons of speed, consistency and interactivity) was really eye-opening and helpful- it gives me the feeling I can run some of the scary cards I was previously on the fence about- it will just be one of my more powerful decks, and that’s okay (and good to know). Great video!

[@Zenith8924]

I'd love to see a video like this for certain commanders, unless you guys have made one already and I haven't seen it! I had a friend who built a "casual" mono blue urza deck and said it was casual since it was voltron and proceeded to tap his equipment for mana lol

[@xXtheONEandONLYXx]

ANY card that, alone, cost's more than $10, AND, especially when it has a deck built around it, is NOT casual. I hope that helps/makes sense.

[@maxbodifee3263]

xXone..there are plenty of cards that are expensive because of standard, modern or lack of reprints that just aren't as busted in EDH so 10$ is an indicator but not THE indicator

[@mschmidt10k]

Cost doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining the power level of a deck. I run revised dual lands in my casual decks - because I have the cards & like playing with them - and they do absolutely nothing to influence whether the decks are casual or not.

[@eXJonSnow]

I think two of the biggest things that go into power level are win-con and the deck’s ability to pull it off. Decks that have a repeatable engine or a combo based win are typically going to be more powerful than basic go wide decks. For example, the Pantlaza precon deck’s win-con is to play a bunch of big dinosaurs and attack for lethal. It’s not going to go off in a single turn, there aren’t any infinite/repeating combos, and there are multiple ways to stop it (board wipes, combat damage prevention, spot removal for big dinos, etc.). Even with upgrading the ramp and adding in higher powered WRG cards, it’s win-con is still to go big for lethal. Contrasting that would be something like a Thassa’s Oracle combo deck. It’s win-con runs a low mana infinite combo that can win in a single turn. If someone doesn’t have spot removal for a combo piece or a counter spell at the moment the player is going for the win, then they win. It also simultaneously wins against the whole table, whereas combat decks probably aren’t going to kill multiple players in a single turn (at least, not until late game with low health totals).

[@ty_sylicus]

Whenever an opponent tutors up a win condition, it often feels like the game was stolen. When they tutor up an answer, it often feels like being cut short. Tutors are annoying.

[@daltronius]

I find tutors to be fine in small doses, i hate seeing decks with like 15, its just railroading at that point

[@masonmurray4345]

After seeing the displacer kitten, I was so tempted to try and add that to my "helga skittish seer" deck. However that effect would be overwelming without a doubt for the decks my friends use lol. Thank you for mentioning these cards though this is great information on cards people could use.

[@davidarmstrong3964]

If smothering tithe was printed today it would say when an opponent draws their second card each turn

[@Dragon_Fyre]

Monologue tax was their effort to make a more fair Smothering Tithe but no one plays it. 😅

[@PasDeMD]

@@Dragon_Fyre I have it in a few decks because I don't want to run smothering tithe but do want some degree of white ramp. (Usually w/ token synergy.)

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@PasDeMD I didn’t literally mean “no one”. It’s just not a popular card.

[@coryledwitch6492]

“There are cards that do do that” - do do being the key words

[@Onimaru924]

What is the point of a power level discussion if the worst decks are a 4 or 5 and best is 10. The reason everything is a 7 is because everyone compresses the 10 point scale to a 5 point scale. I feel like the range the community uses needs a bit of reconsideration.

[@steveallen590]

The worst decks are not 4/5 original precons are 3s is what they said. So I can see your point to start at that 3 but 4/5 is taking away from the 3 decks

[@LightBender777]

No one is going to use 1-5 because those are just decks ranging from all the cards are the same color with no synergy and only creatures, to an average mid tier precon.

[@jordongee2347]

It's like IGN game rating.

[@dmitrifrancisco3912]

Bro watched but didn’t listen

[@CovaDax]

@Josh When I started playing commander way back when, I really loved my `Daretti, Empyreal Tactician` Deck. It was so cool, it has my favorite color combo, I can play my commander without a tax, if I play Hokori the Dust Drinker everyone's permanents don't untap anymore.....Hey wait, where are you guys going? I learned what Stax was. And I never played it again xD

[@dafickler]

I have never ran tutors. One of the big attractions to Commander for me is the variety of the games. I enjoy seeing and playing different cards every game. I also don't intentionally run any infinite combos.

[@rockguy9022]

I've stopped adding tutors. At most, I add only 1 and almost never use it to pull a win con unless it's turn 10+ lol

[@GrizzneyGames]

I will run some of the slower combos in my weaker decks just to be able to close out a game. I mean the really weak ones playing some generally bad cards

[@jacomeyer2433]

Incredible work guys !!! Really great video !!

[@seantheelite]

Rachel be PREACHING and dropping gems thru her humor and her knowledge of MTG. Arguably some of the best hot takes and opinions. Her EDH gameplay and interaction is *chefs kiss* you can see it in her deck builds and turn/threat assessment. 💪🏾🔥

[@Wiwwia]

Wow you are so quirky!😂

[@seantheelite]

@@Wiwwia and also magic obsessed 😇

[@michaelbox5489]

this is an amazing episode. i would agree with this 100% if everyone played this power level definition the game would be alot better

[@jonathanarcher5356]

Going to always refer to a 9 as a Kibler 6 now 😂

[@sambrown9475]

Lmao so true 🤣🤣🤣

[@lonewolf975]

What point in the episode do they say this? I was listening to it in thr background and think i missed it 😂

[@huntaustill]

Just found y’all, love all of your content and production level of your vids is great!! Keep it up

[@imikoimo6685]

Me and 3 close friends started playing commander 5-6 years ago, we mostly play casual and rarely use cards above 20$. One of us started to put Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Teferis Protection, Jeskas Will and Farewell into all his decks. We argued a while and we came to the conclusion that those cards broke our meta and ruined the fun. He doesnt want to change his decks, so we ended up playing once every 4-6 weeks instead of once a week like we used to for years.

[@TheBotchJob]

RIP... That power creep in playgroups is so hard to suppress. Once somebody starts upgrading, everyone basically has to just to keep up.

[@brugalter94]

I think farewell is an odd choice to add to this list, unless said player holes prio and then teferi's protections. Otherwise its just a good reset button.

[@imikoimo6685]

@@brugalter94 I would agree that it's not as problematic as the other cards. But it still makes a difference if you're the only one that plays farewell, while everybody else is using austere command, or if you use black market connections, while everybody else has phyrexian arena. Those small things add up pretty quickly.

[@josephpayton7522]

​@@imikoimo6685it was like 10 bucks.

[@maxpelaez4955]

@@brugalter94 its more bc u can be selective and literally hit every major zone for a six mana board wipe, it just does too much to reset a game in a more casual environment sometimes to a point that you dont need it unless the meta is stronger

[@joaopereira7111]

Glad someone is having the power level talk! Loved the episode 🔥

[@TheKingRiku]

The dual lands might not change your power level, but they are DEFINITELY a red flag. If they got that money to burn they most likely have powerful cards.

[@darkjammin79]

I'm trying to balance between power cards and keeping my level low enough to keep it fun for the table. This has been quite helpful on which cards to rotate with for lower level play, primarily the speed mana and heavy swings(compared to cost). I've been loving the refinement and powers of it rising, yet fear it is accelerated too far for casual play with such cards mentioned in the video. Planning to set up a rotation side to temper with consistency and speed so my commander can still fight to their heart's content. But waiting longer and fewer protections so the board isn't overwhelmed. Laughed good at how I was thinking at peak(and current pieces coming along) just a shitty 8 with it being combat centric(lacking fliers, swarm, trample) but might be nine when I eventually get the biggest level boosters you've listed. In principle.

[@jimmyb2655]

Jeska's will, in my prosper deck, is glorious. The Deck is definitely an 8. Impulse draw and playing things out of exile snowballs quickly. It also has Mana Geyser, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt. My Zaxara deck has pretty much every card in this list video that it can run. It's my "9" deck. The deck I'm comfortable playing when people bring out their crazy decks. it's also my most expensive deck. everyone has that one deck they want to bling out right.

[@joshholmes1372]

Dockside goes crazy in prosper too obviously.

[@jimmyb2655]

@@joshholmes1372 yup, that's why the deck is an easy 8 just with that card. It's basically built to find it, build to feed off treasures, and play from exile to get more treasures. It's a vicious cycle and if I can get to dockside it's usually game over.

[@mrboberson7424]

Casting a necropotence off of a bolas citadel might be the best feeling in magic for me personally. Your life total is the payday loan of your manabase, and the necro/citadel combo is the game winning slot machine.

[@reedboriack930]

This episode basically listed my "Baral, chief of compliance" deck list. xD

[@supranova7594]

Late to the vid and loved it! My only argument/addition would be to craterhoof(and now moonshaker calvary) being 8 not 7. Yes it requires setup and yes 7s are usually a combat meta but theyre like every other card mentioned just previously that they just don't feel good to win with anymore (torment of hailfire etc. you Have to counter spell them, Once it hits the field no amount of clever blocks or having removal for the hoof/calvary stops that trigger on the stack... short of a fog or instant board wipe, your board is 300+ damage and trample/flying.

[@littlegamers360]

One care they missed is Bow-masters imo that card can shut down decks and if ran with wheels it’s crazy

[@fjeppesen]

Such a good episode - Loved every minute.

[@blemski]

Completely agree on esper sentinel, I have it in my queen Kayla deck and that deck is a solid 6 but hey when esper hits the table I can draw a couple cards before it gets naturalized.

[@diSTUD013]

I have always operated under these criteria for power level: 1-4 - Jank (Vorthos or Alt-win cons) 5 - Precon 6 - Updated Precon (Several cards swapped out) 7 - Synergistic (Decks that are well-built and are highly synergistic) 8 - Focused (Highly-tuned, low curve, high density of expensive cards, and wins with combo) 9 - Optimized (Near-perfect mana bases, fast mana, high-impact cards, and tutors) 10 - cEDH

[@kryptoxeen5261]

Who came back here after the banning of mana crypt, dockside, and lotus?

[@bradleyparker4638]

This video did not age well and if anything we should be worried about them banning petal, both spirit guides, and jeskas will

[@87channels]

This videos thumbnail aged poorly kek

[@Enygma_Inc]

Showed up in my recommended. The thumbnail is brutal

[@Burningtreeblood]

⁠”you’re using a band card? Thats a seven?” Seems right. Still in the same vein of misunderstanding

[@hainzyy]

First, thanks for the video. It's always subjective, and opening yourself up to comments is good for this topic. A few things which are of course just my opinion: 1. Speaking of subjective, as someone that never seems to connect with an Approach of the Second Sun win due to counter magic, shuffling, mill, or becoming public enemy far outweighs the number of times I've won. In white, like my Mono white Rigo list (I know you all mentioned niche corner cases... etc) I either combat overrun or Approach. Wipes hurt the combat route. I don't rate the deck higher than a 5-6 but i understand your point of niche decks can counter your points... just some personal experience as far as connecting with the card... not about my deck! 2. Tef Pro needs to be "on the list" if a lot of these other cards are on the list. I know Josh said "it's interesting" to Rachel raising this point, and "it doesn't stop anyone doing anything exactly except attacking you" is a point for why someone could attempt to talk down the One Ring does this as well, as it's Pro for one turn. Sure the draw adds up, but I can't sit here and think there's no artifact removal by 3 cycles around the table. 3. Glacial chasm - I think this is a product of the unwritten no MLD rule in edh. Almost nobody runs MLD and only so many run targeted Land destruction. Some decks need defense more than others if they aren't going wide, etc... think propganda/ghostly prison decks. To assume as little as possible, people run permanent removal just based on EDHRec numbers and the controller does pay more life each turn. At its base, some games it may just stick and that's that. 4. Edicts. Yeah, I can't defend them too much other than saying it's Blacks version of board wipes, but delayed. On its own it's repeatable removal. It needs a huge board to be a repeatable board wipe. There's a distinction. Based on average deck data etc, the decks that run these also run the suite of cards that benefit from death triggers, so although boards may look empty, there's data predict that life totals are still heading to 0 (zulaport etc). I get it, it's annoying for some decks to play against. Food for thought, is it more annoying because a player lands a creature to see it die, or feel like they cant play into it? Do counter spells shortcut the attachment to the permanent and just send it to grave immediately, instead?

[@PureTranceSoul]

I play Jeskas Will and I don't see it nearly as strong as a Cyclonic Rift just my personal opinion Jeskas will is inherently a red spell so not like the red play would have 20 lands like the green player haha xD

[@Dragon_Fyre]

Not really comparable. Cyclonic Rift closes out games that run too long and stall out… Jeska’s Will is dependent on what else is in the deck but is mostly a combo piece. I think Jeska’s Will is probably more of a threat (potentially). Most people just hate Cyclonic Rift because of optics (You cast it, attack, win, whereas a lot has to happen after a Jeska’s Will for the win).

[@PureTranceSoul]

@@Dragon_Fyre idk. I've never seen jeska will win a game . At least 10 times I've seen rift dropped and the game is pretty much done. Jeskas will is okay overall imp

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@PureTranceSoul I see it win as a combo piece, where it gets copied and you end up with like 9 extra cards and a heap of red mana... Hard not to win at that point with a powerful combo heavy deck. I think the weaker your opponents decks, the more powerful Cyclonic Rift is… the more powerful your own deck is, the more impactful Jeska’s Will is going to be…

[@PureTranceSoul]

@@Dragon_Fyre ahh you play in higher power lvls? never seen it copied lol

[@Dragon_Fyre]

@@PureTranceSoul I typically play below CEDH, so a 7-8 power level. Mostly anything goes except infinite combos. The lowest power level I play would be a heavily upgraded pre-con (Hakbal, Shorikai or Sidar Jabari).

[@MrUberGolfer]

Mox Amber + Roghark discussion very relevant. High power cards can be used in casual decks, if the deck doesn't exploid the high power card. I run Mox Amber in my Norin deck, which is "broken", except the whole deal really isn't broken as I'm running a Norin deck! It just elevates the deck to be playable against a tier of decks that I would normally not be able to compete with - but still very casual.

[@magiclover9346]

I support Card Kingdom. Had a very big order stolen. Parcel was delivered ripped and cards missing. Card Kingdom was not at fault and still gave me a full refund.

[@zacparkinson900]

I 100% have an omniscience in my enchantress that I plan to ramp to and cast. No cheating it into play (unless you consider a fertile ground cheating).

[@kaino2470]

One omni drops in my enchantres deck it's game 😂 can just play out the deck

[@Smashingtrifource]

There was a game at locals a couple weeks ago. Pod next to me guy had a 7 mana commander that had already been killed once. He recasts it and someone mana drained it bc they wanted the mana for their next turn. My guy packed up his stuff and left.

[@Mark101dg]

Had a game not too long ago where my commander got removed 4x, and I need the commander to do basically anything. Play commander they said, it'll be fun they said. I would, but nobody let's my play my damn commander. I was annoyed as hell.

[@Wiwwia]

@@Mark101dg have more going on then just the commander? Sounds like a skill issue.

[@harleybeta]

great discussion, am i crazy to think Lithoforge Engine deserves some room in this discussion? if only for its flexibility

[@mattaconda77]

Need a 'tier list' episode of these cards

[@leonfriedemann9151]

A thing that helps me find the right deck for a table is, when are we going to win/taking out the first player. And as you are describing powerlevels it feels like the first lgs I played in has mostly 8+ decks.... And the people there say my deck is a 5 and I went to different lgs and they said it's an 8 at least.... There is such a difference. Another point in my opinion to ask is whether you can only instant speed interact with a wincon/only with counterspells or you can see oh he has a big board I possibly need a Boardwipe or something. It's a huge difference, whether you have to allways hold mana up or kill a commander as soon as it hits the table. Because the next card they play is curiosity 🤔 Very interesting video though. 😊

[@fragger37]

Jeska's Will comes in 2 precons, not way it makes your deck a 7 immediately.

[@nunyabusiness3957]

Which precons does it come in?

[@fragger37]

@@nunyabusiness3957 Exit From Exile. D&D set. That was the only one. I thought it was 2.

[@malikileefred6011]

Everything you said about Bloodmoon is true and I agree with you. I do wish I could use Bloodmoon more often though because I love that card.

[@WesBWhitacreIII]

All I got from this, is if I put any card in my deck that isn't a grizzly bear, I'm a tryhard level 8+ deck.

[@darylmcnaughton748]

i run isochron in my nicol bolas deck and use the 2 mana edicts, rakdos charm, counter spells (mana drain) etc along with unwinding clock. ive had mana drain under one scepter and an edict under a clone of another with unwinding clock. it was back breaking for the table and with discard effects i drained their resources.

[@Chimeraiam]

Somebody must have really hurt Josh with a Jeska’s Will. I’ve never thought that card was that big of a deal and definitely a step below some of these other things

[@amethystrose3480]

It’s powerful, and in some situations can certainly shake up a game, but that’s assuming you get it early on. Unless your searching your deck a lot or drawing a lot it shouldn’t be too much of a recurring issue. There are a few exceptions though, one of which I’m all too familiar with being prosper tome-bound. If someone plays jeskas will while prosper is out, pray they hit only lands.

[@CajunJynx]

@@amethystrose3480I have Jeska’ willed into an infinite combo a few times in my mono red EDH deck, the thing about that deck is that as far as power level, it’s easily 8-9, I could very easily tune it to play CEDH by swapping the commander (Urabrask the hidden) to one of my 99 in Godo. I love that deck because I can “play down” to the table and not go HAM if it wouldn’t be fun.

[@amethystrose3480]

@@CajunJynx hmmm… I’ve always wanted to build a devil themed deck with Raphael, so maybe that would be cool, if he works with tieflings as well that is

[@Yooitsbran]

Really new to commander so been watching vids so I’m super late but man! JLK! I loved RTS games, played Age of Empires a lot plus the dawn of war warhammer games!

[@darkmystic7764]

Can we stop talking about power levels of edh decks between 1-10? It doesnt work...

[@ty_sylicus]

I cut Dictate of Erebos from my Erebos deck years ago and never looked back. It just isn't any fun for my opponents.

[@surgingchaos]

One thing I should add is that it's not just certain cards that change your power level, but the way in which you go about trying to abuse these cards. A core concept of cEDH compared to "normal" EDH is to abuse the generous mulligan rules and to sculpt the most explosive start you can get that has a draw/fast mana engine in it. IMO there is a big difference between decks that have some strong fast mana/draw engines in there as "filler" rather than trying to make it the go-to strategy of aggressively going for them early.

[@ecos889]

Yeah it's the way you play, plus the rules of the social contract changes to play what you want and show no mercy and play as efficiently and as logically as possible and allowing for the break up of the casual social contract. Which is why as both a casual ad cEDH player my scale is as follows. 1 Jank, may have goofy themes like chair tribal or just be draft chaff or hyper budget focused super fun and challenging to build a deck like this but likely will not win. 2 Precon 3 Upgraded precon 4 Precon with additional staples 5 Deck that aims to win with massive clasical haymakers that need a decently built board state to win such as Creator hoof, Expropriate etc and takes some effort to build said boardstae. 6 Hyper efficient deck staples ways but a janky win-con combo of between 3-5 cards with high cmcs to accomplish and does not go against the normal social contract 7 Decks that break the typical casual social contract like runs mass land destruction, chaos and stax are perfectly fine. 8 Any deck outside the cEDH meta but way too powerful to pilet anywhere else and does not use Consult Thoracle, breach, dockside loops or whatever is currently the most popular and consistant way to win. But may use more competitive 2-3 cheap cmc card combos like World gorger, animate dead loops but harder to set up than the meta in cEDH or easier to break apart. 9 At the level of the cEDH decks in the meta but classed as the best cEDH decks so off meta, but not far off 10 The most powerful cEDH deck in the meta But I would comminicate with people what my deck aims to do in accordance with the scale and see if everyone is fine with the context of it and explain how powerful my staples are and what my win con, unless it's cool ass jank like near death experience and barren glory as winning like that is better kept a suprise so everyonen is hype when it happens.

[@isochronik]

Interesting to hear about JLKs view on jeska's will, when it came included in a precon. While i definitely agree it is a strong card, i dont agree with it being in the same category as mana crypt and dockside.

[@thatonedudejake]

I think y'all are way higher on mana dorks than I am. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but I don't put elvish mystic and its ilk in a tier above signets and talismans, or 2cmc land ramp. Each has their weaknesses and strengths, which I feel mostly even out. Rampant growth is slower but it is taboo to Armageddon, talismans tap right away but get vandalblast'd, many dorks are 1cmc but get wrath'd, etc. If anything, I would rank it lands, artifact, creatures in a casual setting because of the Armageddon taboo. As the power level goes up, I think it is probably artifact/ritual, creature, land. I think we can all agree that lands decks, artifact decks, and elf ball decks can be very powerful strategies, but I don't think anyone would say 5-6 2 cmc land ramp spells makes it a lands deck or 5-6 signets/talismans makes it an artifact deck. So, I also don't think 5-6 1cmc (or more powerful 2&3 cmc) dorks shifts you towards an elf ball strategy. I think of an elf ball deck as a deck built around abusing powerful dorks (priest of Titania, heritage druid, elvish archdruid, etc), often with untap effects, to generate huge mana. These decks would likely avoid playing many of the 1cmc dorks because they aren't elves. I don't really think it is in the same ball park as playing dorks instead of land ramp because the dorks work with your creature card draw, or because you can sacrifice them for aristocrats, etc. Maybe it is because I'm a dimir player, but I'm way more scared of land ramp and artifact ramp than creature ramp lol

[@Hakaze]

Nice vid. I think this can be very helpfull for a lotcof players

[@TheWizardSojourn]

So.. I play blood moon and I find it is more like how you described Mystic Remora. In that lower power desks are more likely to run basics and end up not being as impacted by it, and higher power decks (especially 5 color decks) find it back breaking. Maybe this is an effect of price level given it taxes more expensive mana bases over cheaper ones.

[@joshholmes1372]

Blood moon is brutal for any fast multi color deck. Especially if it doesn't use red.

[@empurress77]

Responding to a combo with an equipment: Helm of the Host with a ETB destruction creature or something like a Sheoldred or even a Soul Warden. (Add any card you mentioned that is a game changer and make it scale exponentially)

[@markgruner5812]

I took apart my Tivit deck that I had a full art foil displacer kitten in. Wanted to use it cause I love the card so I just threw it in my Brudiclad deck for fun despite not having any obvious synergies with tokens. I forgot about Myr Battlesphere and Purphoros being in my deck along with Dockside and even in the least crazy cases, blinking a solemn like, 3 times a turn just simply from playing mana rocks and clone spells. Displacer Kitten is such a good card.

[@jagteq]

This is such a great episode. Lots of great discussion and insight!

[@praetorxak5361]

One thing that I've discovered is that individual cards often can change the power level. I have 2 "block" style commander decks (only previously standard legal cards from the blocks in the plane). One is Innistrad only (The Gitrog Monster), and the other is Mirrodin/Phyrexia only (Nahiri, Forged in Fury). The innistrad deck is super deceiving because you don't do much early, but all of a sudden you get a Craterhoof or Emrakul. The Nahiri deck is often more scary than it seems because I get mox opal, and decent fast mana. Both are about the same power level, but having the couple strong cards in there really helps bring up the rest of the deck. They end up playing at a precon level, but you still get to play with super powerful cards with a super fun and thematic building restriction. I really want to build more decks in this style, and everyone always loves playing with and against them.