Politics & Negotiation / Roon | The Command Zone 02

[@cucumber030]

roon deck tech 45:00

[@kylepickreign5224]

Found you guys a few months ago and love it, going all the way back to watch them all!!

[@brynt91]

in reference to not bragging. i usually refer to my deck as something i'm just play testing. 1) i'm not lying because i am always play testing and editing decks 2) most people think something like "oh his deck isn't done yet, i don't have to worry"

[@andrewmoore7014]

Good stuff. I think the fact my Magic background is heavily based on multiplayer games really prepared me for EDH. Politics was part of the game from the very beginning for me. It's funny, because I'm usually pretty bad at bluffing or manipulating people... but I have my own techniques and tricks now and I find more every time I play.

[@Chrysaries]

It's very interesting that you talk about rather being second than third place, because I always think that playing kingmaker makes for a worse experience, i.e. second helping first kill third just to reach "second place". Therefore I've put forward the idea that either you win or you don't. That way, second and third will cooperate 'til death do them apart to stop first from winning, no matter the odds. That struggle is usually interesting!

[@vengray8055]

I also always push that idea because its true. You win or dont win. There is no places in a standard game of commander. This 1st loser stuff is trash.

[@scottduffy5552]

Been playing Roon for about 2 years now... constantly tweaking it because there are a lot of options with him...so much fun.

[@electromancer2645]

I also run bant flicker but I use Derevi in the command zone

[@AspeSumma]

I've been running a RUG Maelstrom wanderer deck for a while, The biggest problem I've had so far is that outside of Omniscience it doesn't really have a lot of winconditions. It's had a Niv MIzzet in it for ages too but I never knew about the ophidian eye combo. And it's such a cheap easy to get common too, thanks :D On another note I love what you guys are doing. Keep it up!

[@ragdegrotto6353]

In Mexico we have just a word that defines all this: "coyotear" that means to act like you are not as good as you are and wen the buy that idea, then you go full power

[@sas911]

I realize I'm commenting on an ancient video, but I wanted to offer a bit of a different perspective than just "Spikey players who dislike politics or negotiation because they lose more". A good friend of mine loves playing EDH, and doesn't care at all about winning or losing. But they don't politic or negotiate at all. Which is fine, not everyone likes arguing. The way he plays EDH, is to evaluate the board, and the decks being used, and make decisions off of that. That's to say, you can still do all the same things (gang up on one person who's far ahead), but he'd rather that come naturally as a result of the state of the game rather than verbally convincing people what to do/don't. And while I'm not that way at all, I'm hard-pressed to pretend that his opinion is invalid. I get that not everyone wants to have a mini discussion war over who is the most threatening player. Politics and negotiating is a fun part of edh.... for me. But I don't agree at all that it's mandatory, and when I play with my friend I'll refrain from making deals with people because I know it lessens his enjoyment of the game.

[@jackmanleblanc2518]

Lol I've started building a Gahiji deck (it's a pretty bad deck cause there are some cards I still need to collect) and everybody looks at my deck and says "oh you're playing Gahiji? There are SUCH better commanders though man" and then they ignore me unless I piss them off. Even with this crappy deck I've managed to squeeze out a kill or two in a couple games, so I can't wait to finish building my deck and just catch everyone off guard lol

[@TeaLobster]

Just a note concerning 48:15, only flicker effects that specify that the creature returns to the battlefield under its _owner's_ control would be detrimental to use. To my knowledge, most say "under your control," so flickering a creature with those just removes any previous conditions for ownership it had before, like Vedalken Shackles being tapped or Olivia Voldaren remaining on the battlefield. EDIT: Oh, you're talking about Roon because he says that. Context matters, lol. Still leaving this here in case anyone can use the info!

[@mindgravybear2971]

Ive watched damn near all your videos. My favorite one yet! Best topic and Roon is my pet deck!

[@totallyrealname6376]

everyone on MTGO needs to listen to the part from like 35:00 onward about not crying and getting upset because you comboed off and they couldn't.

[@Zectzozda]

Is the decklist for this Roon deck still available? I can't see it in the video description.

[@katierumlock6645]

Zectzozda I know I’m a little late but there is a decklist on tappedout. Just search “Josh Lee Kwai Roon Deck” and click the tappedout link

[@commanderpower99]

Coming back to this podcast for the third time now.

[@SpiritualOnslaught]

whenever i listen to this podcast i always feel like playing edh :)

[@Vininn126]

On the topic of playing weaker cards, I play an atogatog deck where it looks like I have no board state until I can snipe you or potentially win with a Barren Glory Martyr's Bond combo, super fun.

[@bobu-san7139]

I remember when I was a Spike. Choo Choo! My Krenko Mob boss drew instant hate, fast and consistent wins forced my friend to build Talrand, Sky Summoner. and thus the great Meta Arms race began. Making my way through the Roon portion. Thats actually where i ended up.... This episode is super relatable for me....my form of Roon uses allot of shapeshifters, one inf combo piece for the Oh sh17 button. I love my deck, every card drawn is great. In the end i Find him to probably be the slowest and most apparent blinking machine to my opponents.... i now use Pheldagryph. i use him for politics then sling the blink all day..... Onward to #03!

[@brennanrodriguez122]

I really like how far this has come in terms of demographic. As a spike who loves to spike edh, I felt pretty attacked with the whole first portion of this video, but in later episodes they no longer refer to spikes as the common enemy of edh, and instead as just a way to engage in the game.

[@Tada123123]

You can actually use Angel of Serenity to exile creatures when you first cast her. You play her and with her first ability on the stack you flicker her at which point her second ability triggers. The return permanents to their owners hand trigger resolves (returning nothing) and then her exile ability resolves second.

[@andrewkim5556]

I wish there was a list of all cards shown in each podcast. Regardless, great show, keep up the good word!.

[@commandcast]

+Andrew Kim This is something we've heard a few times and may try to start doing eventually with newer episodes. Thanks for the suggestion!

[@ytn999]

great thing about angel of serenity if you flicker it with the first triger on the stack then the creatures you exiled will not come back

[@jaydork739]

I think you guys missed one of the more important cards for Roon, Deadeye Navigator is an instant flicker with soulbond. Incredibly broken alone, then combined with prophet of kruphix and the game goes nowhere except where you want it.

[@jaydork739]

Otherwise, I like the podcast. Great work.

[@joshleekwai8895]

Jaydn Clausen Thx and yeah DEN is a boss.

[@Mightypoo007]

Jaydn Clausen Dies to spotremoval though

[@jaydork739]

so long as DEN is soulbound and you have 1U open, it can dodge any single removal, I use mine in combination with Roon and Prophet of Kruphix which all but guarantee's it can't die to removal or wrath with enough mana on the board.

[@Mightypoo007]

Jaydn Clausen Well, nope. The trick is to respond on the Soulbond ETB trigger. DEN enters the battlefield, Soulbond triggers, respond with any Doom Blade or what have you, and it's done. Over. At this moment DEN is not yet paired, so the controller won't be able to respond with the 1U: Exile ability to exile it again.

[@sergiopyro5546]

In trying to do Roon whit leave the battlefield efects and the actualization of the commander rules for permanent exile commanders, do you have any ideas? Do you have a deck like that?

[@Masaru_kun]

when they talked about the art of war, I thought they were talking about the prince at first, but then they mentioned that too XD

[@Darwingreen5]

I don't know, I'm cool with cheeky bluffing, but when it becomes outright lying, I feel like i've crossed a line.

[@andresrodriguez7855]

great command zone guys keep up the good work

[@Asmodeus555]

You can't threaten anyone with a Cryptic Command can you? You have to cast it before attackers are declared in order to tap them down an prevent an attack and if they haven't declared attackers yet then you don't know whether they will attack you or not...

[@commandcast]

Asmodeus555 The way the table politics worked in that particular game, we discussed amongst the table who was going to swing at what before we entered the attack step. - jimmy

[@Tvboy777]

This story always bothers me because the real lesson of the story is that Jimmy's opponents made the mistake of freely giving him that information before they attacked. They definitely were not going by Sun Tzu's teachings. The correct way to play is [You]: "going to combat, any effects before I declare my attacks? [Jimmy]: "Not unless you attack me." [You]: "Okay, so nothing then? I attack you Jimmy." [Jimmy]: "Wait, I want to tap your creatures down!" [You]: "Too late, you already said you had no effects, attacks have been declared." Lesson: Don't tell your opponents what you're going to do before you have to, even if they ask you. You wouldn't let your opponents wait to see what you do on your turn to decide what land they want to play right, so why let them see what you do in the next phase to decide what they should have done in the previous phase. Make them commit first. The same thing applies to things like Oblivion Ring, don't tell the blue player that you're going to target his stuff while O-Ring is on the stack, ask him if he wants to counter it and if he says no, then declare your target. Technically if a player asks what your O-Ring is targeting, they are allowing it to resolve and enter the battlefield.

[@AGuy-s5v]

You can hold priority during the "Enter combat phase". Sure, they can say that they won't attack you and then swing at you, but what that means for that player is that he/she can't be trusted for at least the rest of the game, and if he/she doesn't give you an answer cast it anyway and tap their stuff, because that means that they HAVE to give you an answer or they might bust. The same can be said for any other card, "What are you planning to do with that there Jace, buddy?" don't ask for targets, ask for the intention. If that player tells you that he/she is not going to target you with it or doesn't give you an answer, you just keep countering that Jace no matter what after that, because if they aren't going to be honest with you then you can't let them play Magic. [You]: Declare attacks, any effects? [Jimmy]: Who are you planning to attack? Note, *THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE PASSES PRIORITY* since he is asking who you are planning to attack, not "who are you attacking?" (this is also assuming Jimmy is the last person to receive priority as with the last example) This part is crucial, you either have to say that you're not attacking Jimmy, or have something done to you beyond that point if you do attack Jimmy or don't give him an answer. Because we aren't in combat {declare attackers} yet, he can still do something while retaining priority. Phrasing is key. Its a similar concept of "lets eat grandma/ lets eat, grandma" its all in the intent, and how you say it. It doesn't matter if you do know he has something to play against you or not, he's asking a question that *WILL* get answered, and whether or not you give an answer you will get what's coming to you. (This can also be translated to the casting of a spell) Also, Rules lawyers will get rules lawyer'd, Keep that in mind. So if you don't let others take back mistakes don't expect them to let you after you went level 3 judge on their asses for asking a question and trying to have a good time. Also expect to get hated out for that if you pull that shit outta nowhere. Just sayin'. You can threaten with and for anything, be it a swing from a huge creature, or a fireball, counterspells, removal, anything that will do enough damage to another person's plan or in game lively hood. "If you want to fire nukes at me, be prepared to have nukes coming straight back, homing at your stupid face." is the mindset you should always keep in mind.

[@vengray8055]

@@AGuy-s5v Great response to the silliness @Noa Pestana was spouting. I ask questions like that all the time and always get the answer I need wether they say anything or not. Not answering is that answer. Great view on the rules lawerering also. Anything you do will come back at you. If im asking that question of intent then im already ready to make the choice if i dont get an answer i like because iv already made the call that they may target me. Iv never asked that question without being 100% ready to use it. I think jimmy just didnt mention that in the podcast.

[@alexanderlenz5433]

1:03:48 does anyone know of which Card he is speaking?

[@Sarkhamy]

Can you do an episode about politics and stax/group hug decks?

[@cadeb3810]

Roon is a great commander I think you guys should do a morph manifest deck I would either do Roon or Ixador cause they both flip up things for free

[@thewitchsfamiliar]

I apply Art of War and The Prince to most aspects of my life. But mostly to EDH.

[@sergiopyro5546]

Can you help me? Im trying to do a leavingthe battlefield roon deck, do you have any ideas?

[@AramilVandal]

Looks good. Where can I find the decklist for the Roon EDH deck?

[@joshleekwai8895]

AramilVandal You can find it here: Hmmm...it won't let me post the link for some reason but you can find it in the show notes on RocketJump.com or also on our profile on TappedOut.net which is under CommandCast

[@vidarthorsby2052]

I would say Owling Mine was a group hug deck in 1 on 1 . :-)

[@terciofilm]

Thanks for the video, so insightful! I've notice you didn't recommended the use of the flicker effect for generating several tokens as a priority. But I wonder: Do you see a possible successful combination of Ezuri, Claw of Progress as the commander, and a deck filled with creatures that generate tokens (Thopter Assembly,Hornet Queen, etc) plus creatures(spells) like Roon, flickerwisp and other flicker makers? Maybe also adding White to the mana pool... I Would love to hear your opinion. Thanks!

[@Zectzozda]

Viewers looking at this video now, please note that Prophet of Kruphix is banned in Commander.

[@schonsospaet22]

Instead of Stifle I use the Ixalan card Siren Stormtamer that should save a permanent for an extra blue mana and tap Roon for 2 at least once each turn

[@CRIMS0N_KING]

Whats the card at 53:17 ?

[@whitekrow3006]

I've found that politics really aren't that important in EDH unless you're playing "rattlesnake" cards that can actually back up whatever you're saying. Also, you might be forced to team up with one player if the two others decide to team up. Generally, the deck archetypes present at the table should determine who should target who and in order of most dangerous to least, it's combo>>>>>>>>>>>>control>midrange>>>>aggro.

[@schonsospaet22]

nice video, good tips, thanks a lot but what do you mean by deception is good- into german we would translate this into ten different words, what do you mean? Fraud? Chicanery? Spoofing? Betray? What deception is good?

[@schwarzertee7586]

I know this video is old but I got a serious problem: My commander draws too much hate. I can't fly under another threat. It's not like he's op or anything. I play Kambal and my deck is build around taxes and lifegain. My playgroup at first talked down on Kambal, they thought he was not good or at least there were better options of a BW lifegain commander but since I've proven them wrong in like 2 games they know how extremly dangerous he is on the field. So he gets sniped immediatly. Usually when i play him turn 3 he get's killed the excat same turn. And this happens 2-3 more times on a regular basis. It's not really much better for the rest of my deck, sure there are some cards that are no big or no threads but when I reach near 50 life everyone becomes aware because they know I got this Aetherflux Reservoir in my deck and I could potentially oneshot someone if I wanted to. So I'll get hate when I'm at about 48-52 life from almost everyone or when my commander is on the field. Or when i got any pieces like Sanguine Bond/Exquisit blood..... I don't know how to take a little bit of "hateablity" out of my deck without making it just weak.

[@brynt91]

do you have suggestions for a defender based deck? i'm looking for red/green/blue because Axebane Guardian, Doorkeeper, and Vent Sentinel, but those are only 3 cards in this 100 card deck

[@jticonchuk]

a +1/+1 counter makes a -1/-1 disappear? Or do mean the power, toughness evens out

[@WHIT3N1NJA]

+Jim Ticonchuk it does in fact make it disappear. you don't have both a +1/+1 and a -1/-1 counter. They negate each other.

[@StivoxiusPrime]

are there books of lore from magic?

[@loveforlexi1213]

My nekusar deck is about a 45 percent win rate and I play with 5 people per game.

[@ErnestoJSalazar]

Was 5 players the norm 5 years ago?

[@firestormpiccolo]

In my play groups I feel I'm constantly being ganged up on. Any advice?

[@sabertooth160]

firestormpiccolo don't make yourself a target

[@staghead8710]

I run Nekuzar lol so I know all about being the group slug XD

[@thegoldbarracuda]

What card is at 41:37

[@IsaacEternal]

+Gold Barracuda Somberwald Sage :3

[@ОгњенТодоровић-ш6э]

Would Phyrexian Revoker be good? You could flicker him around negating the things that could hinder your or the plans of people you are currently trying to ally with.

[@d00dxKVLT]

Zur will win like +80% of the time.

[@stel13r]

No Teferi, eternal witness, peregrine drake, deadeye navigator? Really?

[@coldfire774]

Group hug?

[@wooboy11]

I think rolling the die to pick someone to attack is a cowardly move. I understand sometimes you have to attack someone to trigger something or whatever, but I feel like rolling the die is like negating the responsibility out of the attack, which feels like cheating. In my playgroup, it is not well received.

[@andrewmoore7014]

wooboy11 Yeah, depending on my position in the game I'll either tell them I will scoop as soon as damage is dealt to leave them open (and I WILL) or I'll tell them I will focus them the rest of the game (and I WILL). Works ok.

[@jecubowo4709]

Can we all agree game knights is their best content?

[@lamapajamas6168]

kim kardashian is butter

[@lamapajamas6168]

penguino

[@agenttatercode.5450]

Jesus ****ing christ, you guys take this game too seriously. A whole episode giving advice on how to psychologically manipulate your "friends" as soon as you walk in the door? Trying to carve out a special position for yourself in the minds of your supposed friends? Using every instance of smalltalk during a game as some sort of manipulative ploy? Making everything you do or say questionable? "What is his REAL agenda here?" your supposed friends are forced to ask themselves, even when just shooting the breeze with you. I could understand this stuff if money was on the line or something, but we're talking friendly games of commander here, people... You're supposed to be playing with your friends. I wouldn't want a friend like that and would never remain friends with someone who behaves this way. TLDR: Your suggestions in this episode cause me to cringe in disgust. Step back and gain some perspective, for **** sake, it's just a game.

[@adamhorvath9699]

Agent Tater, CODE. Let's play "Spot the guy who's bad at EDH politics"

[@agenttatercode.5450]

If it seems like a good strategy to you to act like a bitch during the first few games in order to try to mind f*** your friends into not attacking you because they know you'll throw a fit and just wreck the game for both of you --all so you can gain some sort of statistical advantage over many games... For a casual, friggin no-stakes game... Then, well... Just, please just stay away from FNM and the rest of us normal people. Thanks!

[@adamhorvath9699]

As a matter of facts, yes, politics do seem like a good strategy to me, but I don't see how saying "Hey bud, before you swing at me with that 10/10 remember that Royal Assassin I have on the field." makes me 'act like a bitch' and 'throw a fit and wreck the game for both of us'. How much do you spend on your decks? $100? $150? More? There are kids with T1 combo-off-on-turn-2 decks. Are you saying that a snobby brat that can barely play the game but has a deck that costs more than my whole collection doesn't ruin the game? I'm sure that when you play EDH at your LGS your whole playgroup doesn't speak a single word to avoid accidentally 'mind f***ing your friends into not attacking you'. You want me to stay away from you 'normal' people. By definition normal means 'conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.' Edh is often, if not always described as a political format and I'm pretty sure that if you asked around there would be more people who do politics in commander than those who don't. That would make me the normal one, rather than you, since I do politics and you don't, no?

[@agenttatercode.5450]

"I don't see how saying "Hey bud, before you swing at me with that 10/10 remember that Royal Assassin I have on the field." makes me 'act like a bitch' and 'throw a fit..." Yeahh, we're evidently not arguing about the same thing. Go back and listen to both episodes where JLK advocates acting like a whiney bitch, then you'll understand. It's really pretty twisted and pathetic, the way he plays.

[@adamhorvath9699]

Agent Tater, CODE. I see. I suppose it is a matter of opinion. Could you please provide a particular example?

[@Dragoon42]

Roon can target Exile on himself!!! Roon of the Hidden Realm Oracle Text: Vigilance, trample 2, Tap: Exile another target creature. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.

[@jonahk1593]

Rob Brank it says “another”