Top 10 Games Not to Play with Noobs!

Tom, Sam, and Zee discuss the games they'd rather not play with (or teach to) new, inexperienced gamers!
00:00 - Introduction
02:07 - Sam’s #10
03:29 - Tom’s #10
05:19 - Zee’s #10
06:53 - Tom’s #9
07:49 - Zee’s #9
09:22 - Sam’s #9
12:21 - Zee’s #8
14:14 - Sam’s #8
15:45 - Tom’s #8
16:23 - Zee’s #7
18:44 - Tom’s #7
19:41 - Sam’s #7
21:45 - Tom’s #6
23:00 - Sam’s #6
24:34 - Zee’s #6
26:59 - Sam’s #5
29:15 - Zee’s #5
31:26 - Tom’s #5
33:03 - Sam’s #4
34:54 - Tom’s #4
36:57 - Zee’s #4
39:36 - Tom’s #3
41:30 - Zee’s #3
41:52 - Sam’s #3
43:08 - Zee’s #2
44:51 - Sam’s #2
46:19 - Tom’s #2
48:45 - Sam’s #1
50:55 - Tom’s #1
53:09 - Zee’s #1
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[@Overglock]

Playing Resistance with a bunch of newbies, the girl next to me decided she wouldn't be a very good spy. So the cards are dealt out, we all look at our roles, then she places her card face-down, slowly reaches over to my card, looks at it, then swaps her card with mine. I just stared in awe and said "Are you serious?" "It's fine, don't worry," she said. I then had to explain to her how integral to the game it is that we DO NOT know what those cards are and how doing what she did just screwed over that game. Thankfully, Resistance games are very quick and you can start again very easily, but I was just flabbergasted at how she just casually gave away her spy card and didn't think it would affect the game at all.

[@wroot_lt]

Overglock haha, i'm imagining that scene very vividly :D

[@grahammurphy7882]

Overglock my newbie friend was a good guy and failed a mission whilst on it!! I was why? She said and I quote "I didn't want people to know I was a good guy" haha

[@Overglock]

Graham Murphy We stressed several times to the group "IF YOU ARE A GOOD GUY, DO NOT EVER PLAY THE FAILURE CARD."

[@grahammurphy7882]

Haha tell me about it, me and my mate (who played it before) were the spys. We just looked at each other and went "nope this is not the game for this crowd" and got jenga out 😧😧

[@Fanatikk9]

I feel ya! We actually played this game for the first time so we were all noobs BUT my friend did something so INSANELY stupid, I could barely contain myself. She was a spy, along with me and another player. We were down to the 4th mission where two fails were needed to fail the mission. We, the spies, win the game if this is a failure. Well, her and the other spy in our group were picked for the team and the mission was a go! We were going to win, EXCEPT... she picked SUCCESS!!! Not only did she screw up, but I had to keep my cool and not yell cause now we had to make the last mission fail to win. We end up winning and I'm like "we could have won this already, why did you pick success on the 4th mission?!?!?!". She replies, "We still won, quit complaining!" uggghh

[@Wattorok]

For me: Root. Lovely game but it's like having to teach 4-6 people 4-6 different boardgames, each faction plays completely differently.

[@aronkleinsasser970]

Couldn’t agree more. Root it’s one of my fav games, but so rough to teach to new players. The faction variety is what makes the game so great but it’s a pain to teach. I’m lucky because my gaming group likes playing it, but it’s not a game I readily teach to new people.

[@deltari1105]

I have so few people to play with that I will prefer to teach to every noobs than don't play.

[@MVashM]

deltari this is the sad truth. me too.

[@hypnoticsorin8016]

You would think so, but after awhile noobs tend to still be noobish after multiple game sessions. That alone Has turned me off board gaming to a point where I won't play with them. Thank God for Solo games I suppose

[@TheHouseofPanda]

Has your situation changed at all? Are you stateside?

[@steelman774]

Same same... but I love introducing people to the hobby.

[@jd5iron]

You guys were in rare form today! Kudos on the high energy, the comedic timing, and the positive outlook on a negative topic. I loved this.

[@mtnpapa]

It would be nice to see a follow-up video to this where you could discuss how to learn some of these games. I feel like there are different takeaways - play Peurto Rico on the app to learn the strategy, learn hearts before trying Nyet, watch a game of Resistance before playing (I'm winging it now - you get the idea) :) Maybe it's even a whole other list(s) - the top 10 games you should learn to play with other noobs, or the top 10 games you should watch some youtube videos, then try playing...

[@EngMadison]

I dont hate teaching any new players any of our games, but I hate their expectations. They seem to either think 1) I'm going to win, or compete. That simply learning the game on your first play is not enough. Then they get upset when they lose badly despite Improving as the game goes on. 2) Or they have this weird idea that if they win on their first play, or even come close, the game is garbage because an inexperienced player can win.

[@Drsen57]

Jerry Schippa Or that if you lose while teaching that you suck because of it.

[@naughtscrossstitches]

I will often lose carcasonne when teaching it because I'm not trying really hard and I'm helping the other person and not concentrating on what I'm doing and by helping the other person I'm telling them what I'm trying to do.

[@nihlify]

@@naughtscrossstitches same.

[@MindOfGenius]

38:26 I had a similar, yet different scenario; a serious tournament player was to my right in a 8-player game. Seeing pity on me for how noob I was, he skipped me and eliminated every other player around the table. He finished killing the person to the right, leaving just me and him. It's my turn. I calculate if I attack with everything, and what he could block. Yes! I would have him at -3 and win! "I attack with everything...I think that's game." "No...wait...I block with THIS, then this." He was blocking in unexpected ways I hadn't planed for! "I'm at 1 life." "Oh...Onyx Goblet." (Artifact. Tap to deal 1 damage to a player) He looked at me, then the card and I chuckled. He looked back to me, slowly put back together his deck...put it back in his box...walked out to where everyone else was waiting...and started tO WALK OUT THE DOOR and the host had to stop him.

[@rubendekemp4752]

Betrayal at House on the Hill is one where the whole experience can fall apart, particularly if the "noob" is the one who is affected by the Haunt. Not everyone wants to be presented with a rulebook and told to go away for 15 minutes to study.

[@coreysmilez5148]

just wanted to say i love your shows. the chemistry between you guys is getting so good. keep it up, i'm learning a lot

[@JIPunisherIL]

The first 3-way crossover happening on #3?! THE END IS NIGH.

[@TheMacius99]

Nope, T.I.M.E. Stories was their first 3 - way crossover, on best of the year 2015 list, number two. Not counting "Wits and Wagers" on "top ten better games", but such a narrow list shouldn't be counted here IMO.

[@LookAtTheBacon]

He was talking about the list itself, not in general... we all know there have been 3-way-crossovers before.

[@JIPunisherIL]

Like theonlySeraph said, I was talking about this specific list, I know they've happened before. Maybe my wording was a little shitty, my bad!

[@Jeff321]

JIPunisherIL Half Life 3 confirmed.

[@ShadyNetworker]

I actually have the same thing. I *love* this game, but having to explain it? Goddamn.

[@avj317]

I would actually say that Shadows Over Camelot is one of those games where you can’t teach and walk away. You have to teach it and play with them. Maybe a future top ten?

[@rjba02]

As a person who tends to teach folks who are new to board games, while teaching them, I would play in a way where I go out of my way to make the new player 'Take that' by drawing cards, blocking certain actions they might want etc. and not counting points/working towards victory conditions. When I explain what I just did, they're like 'ohhhh' and then they want to use that sort of technique on me or try a variation of it. Plus, at the end, when counting points, the 'Take that' style tends to make the points end up pretty close. If the noob losses, they feel like they could have gotten over the hump with more familiarity and want to play again. If the noob wins, they get so hyped by beating the experienced player that they want to play again. As the experienced player, you enjoy yourself because you don't have to handicap yourself much and you can also practice different strategies/plays/setups while teaching. Win win situation all around.

[@cthulwho8197]

There's a similar problem to Puerto Rico in drafting games where a newb can pass cards on that they really shouldn't pass on. So the person after them can benefit hugely.

[@AnishChari]

Yes Puerto Rico is awful with New Players. Not Shipping when you should or vice versa is game breaking.

[@elink2k1]

This was my favorite top 10 ever. laughed out loud multiple times. I think you guys seriously were saying... if I want to enjoy playing a game, I'm not teaching this. I know if you were asked you would do it.

[@GRex7777]

To teach Magic, I've actually built some basic, cheap decks to play with so I don't outright steamroll people, cause if I use one of my built decks, while they're not crazy powerful, they're way too much for a new player to handle.

[@ryanervin2668]

Betrayal at House on the Hill. Having a random event that determines who the traitor or enemy makes it super difficult to prepare people for the game.

[@Icagel0]

The first time I played BaHotH it was with another new guy, 1 experienced player and the owner, who had a considerable amount of experience. It was going fine and since I play or atch a lot of games I kinda got the game quick, the other new guy wasn't so lucky and was slowing the game down considerably... it was still going alright despite the ocasional mistep/question and then turns out this guy who was barely grasping the game was the traitor...the game basically lacked any challenge from there since he was doing questionable moves, even with the owner somewhat helping him. Now, 20 mins after, this guy has to go due to personal reasons. There were just a couple turns left so the owner took over his role and proceeded to stomp us in basically 2 turns and we lost the game. I'm never touching that game again. It looks kinda fun, but it either has to be all experienced or all new, there's just no middle ground at all and that's a huge turnoff for me.

[@DarthStalkers]

Stuker why’s it matter really? We just had an experienced player do the haunt because it made it more simple. Why force someone into a role they wouldn’t be comfortable with yet. Sure the game says this characters the traitor, but if that player isn’t experienced, don’t do it.

[@jukeboxhero30]

I agree. If its your first time and you end being the traitor, youre gonna have a bad time and never want to play again. Or an experienced player will have to go off with you and explain it to you and they'll already have inside knowledge on how to win.

[@Leilataj85]

I’m digging these old videos. I think one of my favorite things is how much Tom enjoys Zee. To be clear, Zee cracks me up, but when he makes Tom laugh it reminds me of being with my best friend. ❤

[@cat333pokemon]

For our first few games of Hanabi as a group, we allowed hinting to each other at what a good clue would be, and we gradually took away the ability to speak.

[@ceasarsoldier5107]

The cover of Twilight Imperium just screams "Try me out!" What a great collage of artworks

[@gavincramblet3675]

Yeah, when Tom said "Well, I could say this of all Level 99 games..." my first thought was Millennium Blades. While it's still fun with a new player, you pretty much have to play the introductory tournament, which limits the number of strategies experienced players can pull out with a third deck building phase. Plus it is rather rules heavy. That said, I do like how they have rules variants that specifically help newer people learn (like giving them an awesome accessory a the start.)

[@nicklasbille]

I hate teaching Android Netrunner to new people, cuz it takes me several days to get all the rules across :p

[@Alluvian567]

That is a good one. Half because the terminology is weird as heck just to try to force it to be more thematic, and the other half is that it is a VERY asymmetric game so the new player will always feel like the side they get is just weaker. They can't watch the other person for tips about how to play better.

[@Zejety]

And on top of that, all the face-down and bluffing mechanics really require both players to be on a somewhat equal level in regards to card knowledge and/or intuition to be fun. As a new runner, there is no way to know what to expect from all that unrezzed ice. To a lesser degree, a new Corp player has no point of reference for when a server can be considered reasonably safe. I suppose the asyymetry really emphasizes that because you cannot look at your own cards to gauge the general power level of your opponent's cards.

[@Laserwulf]

Huh. I love teaching A:N (and original Netrunner back in the day) by playing as the Corp, and giving them a really straightforward 'runner deck designed for teaching. You completely control the tempo: how aggresively to advance Agendas, how lethal of ICE is on the board & when to rez it, and when it's okay to let the 'runner slip on in for an Agenda to keep the game exciting & fun for them... AND THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW EASY YOU'RE GOING ON THEM. XD

[@JamesSucksAtGames]

Android Netrunner was my first official foray into tabletop gaming as a whole. My buddy taught me how to play in an evening after work. Needless to say, learning that game made it a lot easier to "get" the mechanics of other games pretty easily. Great game, haven't played in a couple years, though, I think. Not since Worlds 2015.

[@purplelizard8]

Trold360 I still cannot figure out how to play this one. Have had it for over a year and may not attempt it at all unless someone shows me.

[@FatManWalking18]

is this a true Catch 22? you have to have gaming experience to play the game but you can only get gaming experience by playing the game?

[@cthulwho8197]

RC Miller Well yes, which is why they are saying it's not that they don't want new people to learn the games...they just don't want to play with them till they have. They want other people to do the teaching. 😁

[@Crs9072]

You can always just teach the game and watch all new players learn the game. Or it can be a new game to everyone, so that they are all on the same line.

[@petermobius]

What's true for all of these games is that it is best to learn them together as a group at the same time. You all have the same learning curve and sense of discovery as the game reveals itself to you. Ya sure someone has to read the rules and watch a playthrough video but you're all still really learning it at the same time.

[@chadthundercock4982]

No, it's not. The Newbs play easier games until they develop enough skill to play more complex games.

[@rosiefay7283]

Voxle You miss the point. Skill at an easier game doesn't help you develop enough skill to play more complex games. The first time you play a complex game, you're still a newb at that game.

[@ramonosuke]

Main reason why I got rid of BattleCON(and Argent as well) are for the same reasons Tom, and now I pretty much avoid Level 99 Games, cause they tend to have this "too much game and over-complications" mentality for all their games, which I can grasp, but just don't want to teach. Five Tribes and Elysium(two of my favorite games) are also games I hate teaching Agreed with Zee's number 6 as well. Tides of Time/Race For the Galaxy/Abyss give me that same feel too.

[@dorpth]

Do the opposite list: Games Not to Play with Pros You'd have to disqualify any kind of collectible card game, but after that: -Dominion: People who can predict with Chessmaster like precision how many moves exactly it will take for them to win -Any social deduction mafia game: Look, Mafia started out as a quick game to play at a large party for people who didn't want to bother with learning a structured party game. Since then they've tried to add more and more game to them (Werewolf, Resistance, etc) but it always runs into the same problem. There's always one or two people on the good team who can remember everything, lay out the exact optimal moves, and instantly deduce who the mafia are in X votes. At that point you either go along with everything they say and essentially let them play the game for you and everyone else, or you're the mafia/traitor and are voted out. A lot of deduction games try to get around this by adding arbitrary false positive mechanics (Dead of Winter) but those end up muddying the game up so much that it reaches a point where deduction is nearly impossible and you're just making blind guesses. I flat out refuse to play any social deduction game anymore because of this, with the only exception being Battlestar Galactica because the destiny deck does a decent job of masking Cylons, and at least there's something to do after you're discovered to be a Cylon. Holy crap is it painful though because EVERY casual group CONSTANTLY wants to play Secret Hitler right now. That game I like even less than Resistance. It's the social deduction game for "wacky quirky" people who have just moved on from playing Cards Against Humanity constantly.

[@stefanbauer7875]

A game of thrones - the board game. It combines length of rules explanation and length of playtime with the fact that 1 uncareful order can make your neighbour overwhelm you and win almost for sure. You need several matches of experience or you are crushed by your neighbour leaving all other houses behind in frustration.

[@EngMadison]

Stefan Bauer yup. I've only played it once, but was swallowed alive. Great game though!

[@dorpth]

Not to mention the noob who runs into the Balon Greyjoy card for the first time.

[@shichitenhakkihd]

To me the most enervating kind of "playing with new players"-experience is, when the game played is designed around the concept of all players playing to prevent the leading player(s) from winning ... and then you have some new player who starts holding a grudge and instead of preventing the leading player from winning he/she starts ignoring everything and mindlessly retaliating towards a single player for some action taken against him. Well, basically and don't like games of that type very much anymore. Munchkin would be one popular example which I might enjoy once every two years, but it's not something I'd bring to the table myself.

[@57thorns]

In my opinion, that is not a newbie player problem so much as a personality problem. There are some games and some people that just clashes.

[@Straddllw]

I got to play Twilight Imperium 4 for the first time yesterday at 6 players. We had 4 new players and 2 people who have played TI3 before but never TI4. We played a short game of 10 points - we've all read up on the rules beforehand, it only took 7 and a quarter hours. Much shorter than the 12 hours I was expecting. Fantastic game and experience. It just skyrocketed into my top 3 games. The rules felt quite easy to grasp actually.

[@SupernovaJBombastic]

I for one cannot play 7 wonders with noobs. Because the people next to the noob are going to get fed science the whole freaking game.

[@ramonosuke]

Wow Do I hate that too lol

[@PaulStuko]

Travis Keating Actually I just played 7 Wonders last night with a couple new players. One of them won by going science. I think the main thing is to make sure the point value of science cards.

[@QueerAsChristopher]

I've only played 7 Wonders twice and I admittedly don't particularly like the game, but I've won both times against people that love the game and play frequently. I understand what you're saying about the science cards, but I think people need to simply commit to whatever they're doing. Most new players are probably too scattered in their selection and aren't hate drafting enough. Also... MILITARY! Both times I have whooped people with military.

[@TheAlfsterino]

It's a game we go to with new people. We have got the rules explaining down to a T and we have experienced players either side of the new players so they can help them out on the cards they have just passed them. On the first card placement we tend to say 'stick a brown resource card down. And every time I've taught 7 Wonders people have wanted another game straight away. Most important rule: no resource cards in the Third Age.

[@SupernovaJBombastic]

You guys know much smarter people than I do.

[@Juniperjsml]

I'd add ARHKAHM HORROR to the list. I've played this a couple of times and I still have trouble with monster movement. Now try teaching that to new players and things get rough quite fast.

[@devekut2]

I have taken to making teaching-aides/cheat-sheets for a lot of the games in my collection to alleviate my hesitation to bring them to the table; when it has been (perhaps) months or years since a game has been played, even if you were an expert at it at one time, you'll be rusty at fine elements of the rules. These cheats ensure that I don't miss points when I'm teaching it.

[@Mr_Jumbles]

Levels of MTG play: 1. Learning the rules. 2. Learning the keywords. 3. Learning how to play a deck. 4. Learning a strategy to play. 5. Learning a meta. 6. Learning how to counter a meta. 7. Learning ALL the metas. 8. Learning how to counter ALL the metas. 9. Learning how to make a side deck so you can counter the meta of whatever is your metas counter. 10. Learning when to give up and just use some the pre made meta pro deck that 95% of everyone else is also using that season.

[@nnk2202]

Mr_Jumbles 11.Learn to quit

[@Sgrand80]

I love the game but you forgot to do step 10 you need to use your life savings.

[@kellystoller7225]

I feel they really should have called this Top 10 Games We Hate to Teach.

[@keithtextor4892]

Kelly Stoller Yes. There is a subtle difference.

[@Okami31]

Except Hanabi's explanation for being on the list wouldn't have fit your title. He didn't hate teaching it, he hated playing with new players.

[@SlipFlip]

But with some of them the problem is they need to hold back to not outplay the newcomers...

[@kylejacobs1007]

I agree, I love cosmic and I enjoy teaching it. But I'm also slightly disappointed when there is a new player because I love playing with more fun/complex variants.

[@leonard8510]

Before even watching this video, I have a feeling TI3 will be high on Sam's list.

[@smoothcriminal28]

Leonard Is it ever not on any list? 😒

[@owlblocksdavid4955]

I missed what replaced it as number one. Was it this last year's list?

[@Hisdudeness9500]

Pretty sure it's Blood Rage

[@TimeSlayer3]

Great list...one of the best even! The only game I've ever been turned down to play because I was a noob was Battlestar Galactica. I still want to try it out to this day but if you don't have the game, nobody will teach it it seems.

[@lystic9392]

I would teach you the game but I don't have it.

[@TheAllroth]

I'm in a very weird position when it comes to Hanabi. Partly I completely agree that it's extremely frustrating when someone new makes a mistake, but on the other hand I LOVE to experience the moment when the game just clicks for them and they suddenly understand the clues thier co-players are giving each other. That final part totally accounts for the annoying bit and makes me actively want to teach this to new people, that I think will get it, that is.

[@daletomlinson1185]

TI3 is Sam's 2nd favorite game? What's first? Blood Rage?

[@PressEnter42]

Dale Tomlinson ya he changed it in his last top 100 list. TI3 has fallen

[@Steve-L]

Watch his top 100.

[@kellystoller7225]

Dale Tomlinson My guess is that it's easier to get Blood Rage to the table.

[@rockxhero]

That was my guess as well!

[@jonydude]

Top 10 list idea: "Games we love that definitely are not for everyone" This is a similar vibe to top ten underrated games, only this is for games where you are not only aware that it isn't popular, but completely understand why.

[@davidpenry8963]

Fun video. I find myself teaching games quite frequently, and Race for the Galaxy is a favorite to play, so I've taught it a lot. It's definitely not an easy one to teach!

[@ltlpayne]

Would love to see an updated version of this list including Mike and Chris. My top game would be Root

[@brandonj84]

I would not have thought of Hanabi, but that is a great choice for all the reasons that Zee gives. Man, I am not good at hiding my anguish in reaction to moves people make. Have to be careful.

[@musicjunkie20]

I tried to teach Keyflower yesterday and it was an absolute nightmare. The rulebook is very confusing and there is just so much going on in the game that newbies think it makes no sense and have no idea where to start. I know this because that's exactly what i thought the first time I played it.

[@bluegreenfields]

Alex Schofield I only played it once and I was confused the WHOLE time lol

[@JoeH679]

That rulebook is really poor. Our first game took three hours with the rulebook constantly being referred to. Now we have a grip on it, It's amazing.

[@joshuascott5814]

Similar to Twilight Struggle, War of the Ring (my favorite game because I’m a huge Tolkien fan) has several cards that if your opponent doesn’t know they exist, they can totally up-end their whole strategy. I kind of addressed this by making a cheat sheet for all the super powerful cards so anyone can reference it to see what pitfalls might be ahead of them.

[@tilias]

My 5 5) Mr. Jack 4) 7 Wonders 3) Throught the Ages 2) Imperial Assault 1) Twilight Struggle

[@bensgoogle]

51:21 "Nice." Made me laugh. So relatable, not just with Puerto Rico.

[@evergreen_monster]

One of the best lists from you guys, I agree with most your picks, especially your top 3. I only missed Alchemists up there. A huge ordeal to teach that game, it's not only a Deduction game (ala Zee's 2 pick) but a pretty hefty Worker Placement game on top of it. And then the last round enters play and minds are blown. Such a great game though...

[@jamesgoode2408]

Been away from the channel awhile. Tom became a leprechaun, and production has improved! Great job guys.

[@davidtroutman9906]

Sam's comments about Shadows reminds me of the "Tales of" story where the traitor was the sweet little grandma.

[@geneinkc]

I still haven't figured out how to teach Kemet in under 30 minutes. There are always a bunch of questions about movement, battles, and the power tiles. Especially those power tiles! Rarely is the group content with just looking over the reference sheet while we play. I feel weird about turning on "Watch It Played" and just letting Rodney explain everything, but he gets it done so much quicker than I can.

[@JayChampagne]

I know this isn't exactly the same thing, bit there is one game I never want to play with people who are new to games in general. That game is "Betrayal at House on the Hill." At one point in every game, one player is handed a rulebook and told to essentially teach herself or himself basically the entire game (everything before the haunt is really just setup). More often than not, the person who is the "traitor" is a person who has never played a board game in their life, or at the very least, never acquired the skill of learning a game from a rulebook.

[@bensgoogle]

When teaching, we actually house rule it where only people who have played before are able to be the traitor. We will either just continue building the house if the haunt roll was failed fairly early in the game, or swap locations with an experienced player and give the omen card to them.

[@dorpth]

and yet Betrayal is a game loved by noobs who always want to break it out. I really really hate that game because it completely falls apart when played by its target audience. (that, and the first half of the game is a full of decisions as Candyland)

[@OrcDragon65]

I've almost never played Betrayal without a Newbie somewhere in the group, and I've never had any problems, as long as you're supportive and try to help the New Person or alter the rule, to make sure the Traitor isn't said new person, you should be fine. Working with the others to plan against the Traitor gives you a really good idea of how the game works, even with the drastically different Haunts. As a new player, the end of my first game was extremely rewarding and I felt really good starting my second game and feeling like I was ready to be more assertive.

[@OrcDragon65]

I hear this so much I feel like the next time they release the game it should be added to the Rules, Such a simple House Ruling and it makes everyone's first game so much better for it.

[@OrcDragon65]

Target Audience?

[@paulanderson7347]

Just want to say I appreciate your guys' work. You all have a great dynamic and have created something useful with your channel. Thanks for getting me into the hobby. Cheers.

[@MrCamp123]

Hanabi would be my number one as well and I feel that may be pretty common among many players. Especially online like on boardgamearena. You'll see people on there sometimes freak out about people making "wrong" moves or giving bad clues or not understanding a clue

[@chelseataiwan]

Could you do a top 10 for games that port well into apps?

[@cthulwho8197]

chelseataiwan Suzanne's top 100 last year included her top 50 Gaming Apps.

[@chelseataiwan]

Thanks! I'll check it out.

[@5tormBringer]

Alchemists is my number 1 because the whole deduction part just seems to melt people's brains which is a shame because it's such a great game. I have found that with games like that I have to give people homework to read the rules or watch a video first before playing the game.

[@formalsyoutube1181]

I play BSG almost religiously -- every time we have a new player, we play a very barebones setup: 5 players, 2 cylon cards. No Sympathizers, no treachery characters, no cylon leaders, no mutineer, no sympathizer. We use the base board, pegasus ship + cylon fleet boards and that's it. We also make them pick their character first and take their turn first. It's much easier to explain the game and THEN explain the sixth man half-traitor cards and weird optional rules than it would be otherwise

[@Trae_Lenox]

Surprised to not see Netrunner

[@elecguts]

None of them play Netrunner due to a bad introduction to that community, so

[@ghyslainabel]

Hi Trae Lenox. They had a video, I think the name was "great games we do not want to play" and Netrunner was on the list. The reason was it is difficult to find someone at the same level. It is either "I crushed them" or "they crushed me".

[@geoffreydevereaux3272]

I was actually going to make this comment myself

[@hardbathsalts3143]

I taught this game to three non gamers, and they all loved it, because they are reasonable people that have souls. They are all avid tabletop players now.

[@hexadecimil]

About Resistance: if you have trouble explaining Resistance to someone, just ask them to set their game prices down and hand them some crayons. All of the stories I've read in these comments, like wow. Just wow.

[@Steve-L]

Through the Ages: I played my 1st game with 2 experienced players, and I won. They did not hold back. But I hated it. It is one of 11 games on my do not play list, despite me winning!

[@jukka-pekkatuominen4540]

What? Saying you are the sympathizer in Galactica doesn't ruin the game. It says on the card that you HAVE TO reveal it when you receive it. So it only makes the game work when you reveal it. Otherwise I can see how secret identities are a problem (especialy in Resistance).

[@gejyspa]

In contrast to Zee's #4, my 19yo son doesn't mind explaining Magic:The Gathering at all. He's taught a dozen people how to play, including little kids. He has it down to a science. He will also cover strategy during gameplay, and even help people in drafts and sealed deck on how to choose cards and build decks. Also, is that game behind Tom (between Colosseum and Battleaxe) fuzzed out on purpose? Or does the box just have some kind of weird coating on it?

[@KiwasiGames]

Dominant Species. There are so many things in that game that can screw over new people who don't know about them. The OP cards. The constant depletion of resources. And even if they get that there is the end game scoring which ends up being worth more then the rest of the game. Combine that with such a long playing time and you have a pretty decent perfect storm.

[@jeffboucherzamzo]

I was really surprised that this wasn't on anyone's list. I really like this game, but it's such a brutal game your first time through, combined with trying to figure out the two different area control mechanics, that I just feel bad playing it with new people. Add in that it can be a pretty long game with 4 or more people, and I'm very hesitant to play this with new people.

[@KiwasiGames]

Its pretty much never on any of their lists. I get the impression that none of them appreciate it very much.

[@Woodclaw]

It's funny that Zee mentioned The Resistance, because I just happened to finish a series of three encounters with grade school kids (9-10 years old) and we taught them how to play various games and they just loved to play Avalon and The Resistance a lot.

[@catastropheclub]

6:58 I tried to introduce my best friend to board gaming through BattleCON, since it's one of my favorites and we both play fighting games pretty often. However, I beat him (I had little experience and assumed he would pick it up quickly) and he hasn't wanted to try it again since, because losing in BattleCON often feels like a total stomp. For example, we did Karin vs. Sarafina, and that's a positioning character vs. a very tricky mobile character, so it got frustrating for him when I kept evading his setups with my UA. However, the next game we tried was Above and Below, followed by Scythe, and that was more his speed. Moral of the story is please go easy on your friends when you play them competitively

[@tourguidechuck]

I couldn't disagree more with Resistance and Inish. I brought Resistance to the table with seven people (three couples and myself), my game, we were all noobs to THIS game. The rules were clearly explained and as play began I commented, "Wouldn't it be funny if Chris were a traitor because he's so quiet and unassuming." Everyone looked at me as if to say,"Why would you say that? " To wit I responded,"Oh, did I forget to tell you? This game is ALL about table talk." Hilarity ensued and we played two games in a row! Two experienced fellows from my gaming club introduced me to Inis and my first game I rather grokked the whole thing well AND was in striking distance of victory. I think it depends on the faculties of the noob.

[@OrcDragon65]

I have always been happy to teach Magic and play with Noobs, there is so much variety that I think it's rewarding to see someone Get It. Deck Choice can eliminate the kind of issues you were talking about.

[@Blinkin27]

Fire & Axe is my go-to game for Noobs...Is simple, straightforward, and the objective cards gives easy directions for new players.

[@konstantinstepanov5461]

Another game I found difficult to teach was Dune (well or any asymmetric strategy game) because not only you have to teach basics actions and their faction but you also need to explain what other factions can do... Also with Dune you also have an alliance phase where choosing an ally is half way through the game, its temporary and every faction gives different benefits which means some combinations are better than others...

[@konstantinstepanov5461]

I think any bluffing games (like Coup) is difficult for newer players because its easy to tell when they are telling the truth the just look at the cards and say - Im a Captain so blah blah.... but when they are lying they meander, look at the reference card and go - I am aaaaaaaaaaaaan Assassin... Although I have been played by newer players who did that as part of their bluff once they cought on... but its takes experience in board gaming/poker in general to do that. If you are playing with people who never play games, they might take a good 10 games to be able not to give away their own bluff

[@pixxelwizzard]

This was the most entertaining top 10 video I've seen you guys do. Loved it!

[@jukka-pekkatuominen4540]

When I heard the name I though Lewis & Clark would be a superman game. The picture was so confusing!

[@konstantinstepanov5461]

one game that I had a somewhat bad experience teaching new players was Betrayal... its all well and good until the Haunt starts and that new player is the monster... they came back from the other room so confused going - what do I need to do again? and I was like well crap I dont know because we are not meant to... yeah that game only works if the first time you play you take the monster role no matter the rules.

[@ninajiron5488]

Sometimes I think I watch you all because, Zee, you absolutely crack me up! Thank you! Oh, and by the way, played Hanabi for the first time a few days ago...I get what you mean. I frustrated my kids so much (they have only played once)...we were all laughing so hard!

[@wiseblind]

Alchemists is a nightmare with new people. Some ppl just dont understand the logic of the game.

[@PyramidofGeezer]

I'm dreading teaching it to myself, let alone anyone else! There it sits on my shelf...

[@ThaineFurrows]

And there's a lot going on, to much to grasp. Just recently I played with another person who was new to the game, and we tried to tell him, as I always do, that you have to be out and publish fast. During the final round he asked: "So when are we going to score what we found out?"

[@Kajotex]

I have teached Alchemists a couple times now. It is not so hard to get the point across if you know the footholds you have to establish. "This game centers around a game of deduction. There are 8 Ingredients and 8 chemicals they represent. You don't know what Ingredient is representing what chemical, but you are trying to find that out. Here is how they combine in different ways: [go over a few combinations, explaining what and why the specific result would show up and how to mark it in the player aid]. You guys got that? Ok Bob, if i would take for example... these two elements, what would be the result? And Cynthia, what would be the result with ... these?" I do that everytime before i start the game. Like... a final test before the real world application. It has worked every time now.

[@RicoCordova]

The most difficult part of explaining Alchemists (for me) is that it's not a pure deduction game. "You are going to be working on narrowing the options for ingredients for X, but you won't have time to fully do that. So, instead you are going to have to bluff about 2/3 the way through your deduction to try to do well in this game." Ugh!

[@maartenpynaerts681]

I agree with this one, if someone didnt get the deduction part correct you only notice this halfway the game. After this you better stop the game because the new players game is over. Dont even try to do the expansion with new players. There heads will explode after going over the rules.

[@The80sWolf_]

Any tips on a 1 vs 1 strategy/war game? Historical would be nice, maybe scifi also, but not a 3+ hour game, or perhaps a 2vs2 or 3-5 player free for all?

[@silverfang6668]

Memoir 44

[@Jeffs40K]

To Teach MtG I have 2 Basic Decks Made with Flying, First Strike, a Few Instant and Sorcery Spells, One Decks White Weeney, other is 2 Color. I start them with the white and swap them after to get use to more colors before we get anything to Difficult.

[@DJchilcott]

When I hear talk of games, I often hear of core mechanics like "worker placement" or "trick taking". Are there enough games out there with multiple core mechanics to make a top 10 list about?

[@chemdent421]

Tom's evil RFTG snob laugh at 41:38. Made my whole day. Haha

[@Vampa219]

totally agree with Sam on Shadows. I have an 11 year old nephew that love games and the first 2 games on this one he is terrified of losing lives and will just draw cards from the start. Throws red flags over the place. So much so that the 3rd game he played the same way and was actually the traitor, but at that point we didn't suspect. UGH

[@paulnorthey6712]

Very funny, nice sense of good natured banter as always. Have you TOP TEN GAMES THAT ARE KILLED BY THE APP? For example Through the Ages, or Lords of Waterdeep, or Eldrich Horror. I play a lot of Pandemic on the app.

[@dra900nka1n]

Somebody in Mystery of the Abbey eliminated Galbraith because I made a vow of silence. That destroyed the game, two people eliminated every single suspect.

[@All_Ice117]

I really like Ghost Stories. We won on our second game, but because my brother and I are "experienced" in a way (strategic videogames and stuff). Although, my mom didn't understand it that much and was asking what to do next. If we play it more, I'm sure she'll get used to it. A thing my brother noticed and it bothers me as well is that it seems lika a player will always be stuck at the tile that makes ghost go back one space at a certain point of the game when things get out of control. I don't like that so much, but it might have been that we have to "get good".

[@TheBrothersMurph]

We played Ghost Stories at Meeplecon as total noobs to it and it didn't go well. I understand why he doesn't like playing with people unfamiliar with the game. We got destroyed haha

[@BobHarrison1229]

Great idea! This is one of my favorite Top 10's. Thanks guys!

[@candide1772]

Love the Stranger in a Strange Land reference from Sam on Dead of Winter.

[@lopan9748]

Matthew Howell Hell yeah! I thought the same thing. Thou art God.

[@ZedLeppelin1989]

45:44 Sam.exe has stopped working

[@vmariassin]

A good top 10. I am surprised by the variety of different reasoning (even though the difference is sometimes subtle) that you came up with for this list. At the beginning I thought the games would all be "heavier strategies with complex rules in which newbs would lose anyway".

[@sethgoodnight]

Great list. It got me thinking that I feel this way about almost every game I own. As the "designated collector" in my group I almost always have to teach any game we play. I don't mind, but I really want to play 7 wonders with people who know the game. Just once.

[@HeadCannonPrime]

Fury of Dracula. First thing I thought of when I saw the title. Couldn't agree more.

[@mightymatt01]

Fury is easy to teach if you have one or two people that have played the game as hunters helping the new people out. Any other way and it's hard

[@dorpth]

Fury of Drac really suffers from the quarterback problem that most co-op games do. The hunters' best shot is just letting the most experienced guy play for them. If even one hunter makes bad moves, it lets Dracula elude them and slip through nets.

[@keel1701]

Tom puts Age of Steam on pretty much every "negative" top ten. Not sure how you thought you hadn't put it on one for awhile. :-) I was expecting Omega Protocol or something like that after your comments about Fury of Dracula.

[@Viger24]

Playing "Ghost Stories" ends up with one person actually playing instructing all others what to do :)

[@normalwaysplayerone2894]

GWT, I find this game so difficult to teach to new players. All the actions are linked, I just find that when I answer one question it makes three more questions. "What does this mean" "Well it means for every conductor you have, you get to push your train forward that many spaces" "What's a conductor? How do I get one? Why do I need to push the train forward" "Well let's explain all the buildings first, I'll get to that." It's not fun to teach.

[@Trueflights]

Firefly is one of my all time favorite games, but you have to play it with people who know what they are doing or it will take forever to play. 6+ experienced players can tear through a game and have a lot of fun in a couple hours. Trying to teach the game to new players can add upwards of an hour or so per new player. They have to stop and read each card from the movement deck and from the supply piles before deciding where they want to go and what they want to do.

[@devinology7]

The main problem with Dead of Winter (and other Semi-coop games) is that some players (seemingly Zee for example) just understand the premise differently from the get go, and they just can't ever seem to see it in the way necessary to make it work. In my opinion he gets it wrong, but that is subjective. Other people actually pick it up very intuitively. "Oh I see, we fail if we do not cooperate, but at the same time I have to look out for me and watch my back with traitors. I have to use diplomacy, bluffing, and manipulation to win. It is very much like real life scenarios".

[@andrewbalmer274]

Does zee just work out his right arm? one arm is normal and the other is like a powerlifter.

[@Phelixc]

Being single and knowing about the internet will do that to a guy ;)

[@smoothcriminal28]

Phelix Kelevra Savage. Take this W.

[@smoothcriminal28]

Andrew Balmer I believe he was that dude in the Lady in the Water that was always working out. Pretty good performance by Zee in that movie.

[@Phelixc]

Wow, that name and picture really is inappropriate on this channel... Have you no decency? Edit: removed the inappropriate name of the person I replied to...

[@rockxhero]

I don't see their comment anymore, but I agree. Not funny. How insensitive & offensive!

[@TheShadesOfBlack]

My #1 is Heroclix. Theres 8 colors for powers, 5 different slots in which powers can be on, with each slot and color combo is a different power, then theres special powers which characters have, along with traits, enhanced aiming and movement, various movement, attack, defense, and damage symbols, each representing something entirely different, and then if you can wrap your head around all of that, then theres minor wordings in the rulebook that changes what affects what. "Outwit can counter a power that an opponent possesses", oh well my trait says I "can use this power" not possess, therefore it doesn't work. My power says "I can use poison and when I do my damage is PENETRATING" "Oh well my power says I IGNORE damage not REDUCE it, therefore PENETRATING damage doesnt affect me, although UNAVOIDABLE damage would. But also I have a trait that says when I TAKE damage, which is different from when I RECEIVE damage." Add on the various types of actions, free actions which dont end the start of your turn, movement actions, close combat attack actions, ranged combat attack actions, ranged combat actions, close combat actions, double power actions, power actions. It takes a LONG time to fully grasp a heroclix game, but at this point it's all just common knowledge to me and its my favorite game to play.

[@NikoTeaJay]

I like playing Ghost Stories with newbies. Yes, it results in crushing defeat if I don't override peoples' autonomy. And I don't. It's a cool, dramatic game as you get pummeled. Ghosts bringing more ghosts. Ghosts stealing dice. Ghosts not dying to dice. I've had good results introducing people to the game.

[@simonmounsey4191]

Also agree with Tom on Stronghold and Twilight Struggle. Both are probably in my top 3 of 2-player games, but they can be brutal on new players. For Twilight Struggle, there is no way to tell a new player the possibilities of cards entirely that can happen. In Stronghold, there are soooooooooooooooo many rules that teaching it can be an absolute chore.

[@petermobius]

The underlying outake of this top 10 is simply... if you have the opportunity, it is best to learn a game at the same time as the other players. I just did this with Clank! with myself and 3 other players. It was super fun to be discovering the game at the same time. Really in this day and age all it takes is for one person to watch a Playthrough video online and that's it.

[@hardyworld]

I'm surprised more war games didn't make the lists (Warhammer, Battlelore, Battleground Warfare, Axis & Allies, etc.) because once you become experienced at any of those games, you really don't want to play with people unfamiliar with the strategies involved in games that typically last for hours.

[@dorpth]

I never understood why Pandemic, Small World, and Catan were considered gateway games. They are... not simple and easy to someone who has only played Hasbro games up until that point.