RWBY Villains: Cinder's Faction

[@bluemew22]

"If Emerald joins the good side, I would lose all faith in the writing team." Finding this video 2.5 years later is a treat.

[@shinygrowlithe3882]

I was about to say that quote "Aged like Wine"

[@yoavssj5893]

Very true

[@tevineleven11]

Yeah...I'm rewatching the video right now and just seething about it 😬

[@reallybibboobagirlilovemyazaki]

@@tevineleven11 same

[@pynkydoggykaguraminadessss6154]

She did ✅

[@FirestarGaming863]

I came to hear about torchwhick and Neo and I'm glad to see another torchwhick fan

[@ShizuruRavenRobin026]

It's amazing how Ruby went after Roman torchwick but when cinder or Salem's around is like they don't exist to her for some reason Oh wait Ruby maybe there main enemy's are In cinder case her self and we all now at the end of the day Jaune And Salem only care what ozma doing Ruby just a side prize

[@jauneork278]

Bruh the emerald speech aged badly. She did join the heroes. And yes it's stupid.

[@maiseree1511]

I feel like there could've been so much story-related potential involving Neo's shapeshifting abilities. They could've pulled a Mystique on her. Make her manipulate everything behind the scenes and in the shadows by disguising as maybe Ozpin, Ironwood or Glynda

[@angelsheavenlygarden1267]

Jinx Solaei I do agree with you but I think the biggest problem with that is neos muteness like let’s run with the idea that neo tries to manipulate things as Glynda let’s say oz runs into her needing something (and let’s also assume he truly knew nothing about the play) and oz asks her for what he needs in a specific way that would require her to talk oz pushes her as to why she isn’t talking abd she run# off that immediately raises red flags especially if he runs into the real Glynda later

[@maiseree1511]

@@angelsheavenlygarden1267 I've considered her muteness but still don't you think it would be been interesting if she actually tried to mimic someone else's looks instead of palette swaps

[@angelsheavenlygarden1267]

I do think it would be cool im just trying to be realistic about it

[@BlueMonkey1159]

So what your saying is the characters were ounce named after colors but are not colorful characters That's ironic

[@marvelboi3416]

Roman Torchwick made his first non-speaking appearance in Yang yellow trailer before she came up to Junior and chat with him... He was talking to him at the bar and walked away.

[@TheSOGchronicles]

I had my own personal take on a rwby fanfic/rewrite where I had a character who could essentially talk for neo since his semblance was that he can hear the thoughts of people (not mind read since he can only HEAR what there currently thinking) an that neo had mercinaries help her in killing cinder

[@goldenbrigain7031]

eh, Qrow almost certainly killed piles of people when he was a bandit for resources and he's one of the best characters in the show. rather, I think Mercury could have been a better villain if he better portrayed the aspect his character embodies: the lack of choice. Mercury has no qualms killing and fighting but he never chose those things for himself, he also never chose to be a part of cinders faction, Mercury knew Cinder and emeralds faces when they came for his father and could have been a loose end considering how much their plan hinged on secrecy. Yeah you can probably trust an assassin not to be a snitch but Mercury was completely lost in life at that point and they had no idea where he'd end up. Better to use him, problem there is Mercury has never been shown to like killing and blood, it's a job for him. They didn't have loyalty from him they had a body they could force to work, Mercury went with the flow because doing otherwise would mean death, the contradiction is that Mercury has never still at this point had a choice. That's why I feel he had great potential, Mercury is an evil man but evil in a unique sense, he's simply never been allowed to be good, he has never in his life had a choice in what he could do without loosing his life if it wasn't someone else's will. He is completely foreign to the concept of self, which is actually really well presented in the fact he lost his semblance, the expression of soul and can't get it back. He has no desire, no reason to live and the inability to find that reason beyond what other's tell him to do. If they did am arc where they questioned the point of choice and the aspects it entailed using Mercury and better played with that in his emotions and character. It's mind boggling how good they've done it from a representational standpoint, no legs to stand on, no semblance to represent his soul even with the death of the man who took it away, and even now lost with no way out. They just needed to get him to talk and express that easier. It's actually why I think he could be redeemed (although I don't really want that to happen), if the first choice a man is given in his life is between good or evil and he picks good, that doesn't absolve him of the evil, but a sword is never blamed for the lives it reaped, in a similar manner, I think Mercury could be taught how to want for himself again instead of living like an animal. But that's an extremely unique type of characterization and I have no idea how they'd go about it.

[@handhelder823]

The crown of choice! If he would get it...

[@handhelder823]

Thank you for this comment! Exactly why i love Mercury and don't understand the criticism of "He is a killer for no reason" or "He is boring" or "He has no semblance, boring"

[@skyslasher2297]

16:17 How was Beacon a loss?

[@grandempressvicky6387]

"I would be furious if Ruby just forgave her for that!" This didn't age too well...

[@MysteryKar]

on the contrary, that aged like fine fucking wine

[@able_archer01]

Chibi!Cinder has more personality. Think about that for a moment.

[@amiraskew5941]

That's the reason I watch chibi over the original series

[@feeman8945]

Chibi pretty much use the cast better than the show, and it's god damn annoying. Skit > Story

[@RyanGButler]

so does ren

[@shinyblue4774]

Almost all the characters are better in Rwby chibi

[@serenitydoessomething7656]

Honestly the chibi series gives the extra characters more personality-

[@AnimatedZorox]

honestly the only villain i ever liked in rwby was honestly both torchwick and mercury XD

[@sdbzfan1]

yes Mercury was fun and his first Voice actor made me want more of him way more the his stupid boss Cinder, RWBY chibi seems to make it seem like the only reason he stays with her and Emerald is because he likes her which I can totally see

[@ChaotixLau]

I liked Adam as a villain until his appereances during volumes 4-6. i could easily say he went from "a Terrorist revolutionary who cares for his companions but not blake cuz he has more important things to care about than a traitor who likes to run away instead of fight for what she believes" to "Gaston (beauty and the beast)" nothing else, just, gaston. I actually loved to hate Adam, but not for the reasons he had during volumes 4-6, seriously he was a villain to fear that looked like he had a good reason to fight. they've just ruined his character without explaining anything about his past.

[@jayshadex]

I liked mercury not torchwick tho idk bout him

[@twilightlordyt7835]

I like Mercury and Torchwick was amazing. Torchwick's VA looked like he was having a blast.

[@georgemoore6897]

imagine this. Season 7 comes out. first episode is called "The belly of the beast". Torchwick breaks free from the belly of the gryphon. He gets a tattered, beaten new look. He now just wants both sides to screw off and let things stay the same. Let the grimm be scary, the hunters kill grimm, and he gets to commit his crimes. making him a neutral party that could really add in some neat interactions

[@jayfeather7676]

Yessss

[@Rnamaji462]

YeSS Screw current RWBY I want THIS

[@anoydorang3863]

@@Rnamaji462 lmao same! If in volume 9 neo becomes the summer maiden and Roman comes back only NOW, I’m probably gonna punch my computer screen and throw it out the window!

[@DavidJohnson-cd4ze]

Have him and Weiss hook up or something

[@MachineMan-mj4gj]

"Where's my goddamned hat!?"

[@SnoozinOnSaturday]

12:34 "Emerald is to blame for the death of two of Ruby's closest friends, and I would be furious if Ruby just forgave Emerald for that.... If [that were to happen], I would lose faith in the whole series." V8 is boo boo the fool's season for all of us, huh

[@BunW.Bun21774]

If I had to write backstories for these characters, I would do this: Roman: (who's speculated to be from the Brunswick Farm) was the son of a poor farmer who dreamed of something more. His first heist was an accident. He bumped into someone a bit more wealthy than himself and kept their money rather than returning it. His family didn't scold him too harshly, as the money was needed to survive. Roman continued to steal, going only to the closest towns or villages. He did this so often that he wasn't around for the first stages of the Apathy cleanse. He only became a witness to it after he came back with his newest haul (all before while the Apathy were only a pair rather than a horde, he'd leave his take and run off once again to provide for his family) and left with a distraught and maybe catatonic Neo in toe. Neo: A survivor of the Apathy cleanse who refuses to speak as a result. She's loyal to Roman and would follow him to the ends of remnant if she had to, just to help in his work. She became a killer after defending herself from a drunk who was getting too handsy. She didn't enjoy killing at first, but overtime when blunt force was needed to persuade people to Roman's side (Yes I'm making him a small time crime lord) she grew use to it until killing an opponent became second nature. Emerald: She comes from a poor village somewhere in Vacuo where stealing was the only way to get by and if you didn't have the guts to do it, you'd die from either starvation, grimm, or being exploited by others. She left her village in search of better conquests and tried to get better, clean up her life and move on from being a street rat as Roman called her, but the temptation of stealing was too much. She meets cinder in the same way, but she's more distrustful and cautious since maybe to a her cinder's eyes scream danger. She only trusts Cinder after they share backstories, have a hot meal and Emerald gets a warm bed with a roof over her head for the first time in years. Mercury: an abuse survivor who killed his father days prior to meeting cinder and Emerald. He buried him in a shallow grave somewhere behind his house and actually stayed in the house rather than burning it to the ground. Mercury continued to train, as it's the only thing that can steady his nerves since the shock of killing his only family is still fresh in his mind. Its only until he takes a lesson from his father to heart can he kill someone without remorse...well not too much remorse since he doesn't like killing women, children or the elderly. The lesson he took from his father was to treat his targets like sentient grimm who could share emotions both good and bad. Cinder: her father died, leaving her in the hands of her abusive step-mother and sisters. Like Cinderella, she did all the chores around the house and only had mice for friends. It's only until a ball in atlas (cinder is from Argus) does she breakdown and pray for someone, anyone, to take her pain away. Enter Salem, the mother of Grimm who was thought to be only a story for little children to hear when they misbehave. Salem offers a crying cinder a chance at getting the power she's secretly wanted. Cinder agrees without hesitation and leaves with cinder, who summons a small number of Grimm to destroy both cinder's childhood home and her family. Cinder is condescending, but rather calculated, tactful and just a bit charismatic. She uses her wits and charm to sway those to her, finding out what makes them vulnerable and capitalising on it by offering them something they couldn't have hoped to have long ago. For mercury it's a place where he can use his skills without the threat of being beaten and for emerald it's a stable life with food and shelter. But emerald is still jaded about he world and can't see how RWBY can be happy all the time when they've never had to struggle a day in their lives like she has. Sorry this got wordy. Loved the video though

[@Darkfyreofthezenith]

Personally, I always assumed Roman was ex-atlesian military. Probably an intelligence officer. It would explain his ability to pilot ships and mechs as well as his general affinity for atlas tech. (In my head he's also the one who wrote the hack for the drones since they never tell us who did it and I don't think any of the other villains have the ability). His weapon of choice and demeanor made me assume he had a somewhat privileged upbringing which is why I assume he was an officer. At some point he got burned by atlas and left, using his network to build a crime syndicate. As for Neo, I always assumed she was his kid. Her mom was dead and that had something to do with why Roman left Atlas.

[@BunW.Bun21774]

@@Darkfyreofthezenith I think it's implied that Watts is the technician of the villains, but I can see your idea too. Maybe that's even why he hates law enforcement as when being burned by Atlas, he deserted the military, which I would assume that like in the real world would be a big no-no and come with prison time should be caught. I feel like this reason would be why he has lackeys fight for him before jumping in himself. He doesn't want to draw attention to himself because of the fear of the military coming for him, with it possibly being Ironwood himself. As for Neo being his daughter, I'm sorry, but the most I can see her being is a sister to him. It's not because I can't see Roman having a wife or girlfriends, but because if they had that high of a familial tie, why would he involve his daughter in his work? I mean, I don't think any parent wants their kid on a dark path, but I can't speak for everyone. All I can say is we both have our own opinions and can agree with them somewhat without arguing.

[@Darkfyreofthezenith]

@@BunW.Bun21774 That's fair. To be honest, I stopped properly watching RWBY after Roman died, Neo vanished and Adam got turned into a crazy ex-boyfriend. After that, none of the other villains really caught my interest. So most of my theories are years old. Yours likely line up better with current cannon.

[@dankerbooper]

@@Darkfyreofthezenith Neo's theme song implies Neo was found and adopted by Roman

[@davidbasa9985]

👏 SOMEONE 👏 SEND 👏 THIS 👏 TO 👏 ROOSTER 👏 TEETH 👏

[@lazboy1013]

Rest in peace Roman Torchwick favorite character even now :'(

[@randomcenturion7264]

He may have died before reaching his true potential, but at least he died before M&K could ruin him too. R.I.P The one villain I actually liked.

[@angrygarbanzo5436]

The griffin cut the tree down before it could truly grow

[@randomcenturion7264]

@@angrygarbanzo5436 Perhaps. But it also sparred the tree from becoming rotten and rank by the foulness that is M&K's writing.

[@jayfeather7676]

Same here, he was the best character in the show for me

[@Tomeroche]

Torchwick's reason for joining Cinder was self preservation, as he monologues to Ruby. It's not what he has to gain but what he has to lose. His death was one of irony, it didn't need to be foreshadowed as having been something he or someone else caused. He's telling her the world is a cruel uncaring place where there's no such thing as justice and things happen arbitrarily, and after he wins the fight through his own efforts the universe snatches his victory away unceremoniously without warning and he simply dies which ultimately proves himself correct.

[@paulbutkovich6103]

The problem is that while it may have been thematically appropriate it still left RWBY with no villain who could take his place.

[@mahoganydoughnut6082]

@@paulbutkovich6103 at rhus point I dont even think the thematic nature of his death was intentional.

[@paulbutkovich6103]

@@mahoganydoughnut6082 Hard to say. I think it was just because it worked too well for it to be a mistake.

[@PrimeofPerfection]

@@paulbutkovich6103 I don't think it's a mistake, if only because we know that Grimm are attracted to negative emotions and that's the ideal setup for it. Having said that, it would be much better if Ruby intentionally used that knowledge to her advantage to dupe Torchwick and save herself after having been disarmed and outmatched, but that's a whole other issue.

[@HappyGamer-em3wl]

@@PrimeofPerfection I would have to disagree. Mainly because Ruby wouldn't have manipulative someone like that.

[@brianbrush5107]

I think Mercury should have been used to fill in Romans role as the Snarky, playful smartass of the villains. His history with Yang makes him a good rival and his differing history and Motivation from Roman helps to keep him from feeling like a replacement. Him and Emerald could have also served as a good Contrast to Roman and Neos, sense Emerald can barely stand him. It would generate a bit of a Felix-Locus dynamic from red vs blue, where Emerald acts like A serious threat and Mercury just keeps making Smartass remarks about everything.

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

I would love to see Mercury get some of his old sassy self back. Unfortunately his character feels so stunted in previous volumes. It's almost easy to forget he used to be so animated and more lighthearted because he does so little anymore. He didn't even have any lines in all of volume 4!

[@brianbrush5107]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 Agreed.

[@brianbrush5107]

@@MrValdac That isn't true. At all. Miles Luna for example made it clear critism is fine, as long as you aren't an asshole about it.

[@xmystic1562]

Lol the only reason I’m still watching rwby is because of mercury. Emerald too, a little because she has a lot of potential

[@reemraghad4267]

Do you think it would work in my rewrite if still made mercury the snarky playful smartnuts even in later volumes? Just want advice.

[@lorddarthfire1560]

Roman? A little bit of charm? a little bit of entairtainment HAVE YOU SEEN HIS PERFECTION? You give him too little credit He is the best thing the villains of rwby have to offer "Plus he gave us neo"

[@bearandthebull2372]

That's because he's the only villain that's gotten any form of character "showing".We know why he joined cinder,we know he had a caring side due to his bond with neo,and we also know he was highly charismatic and intelligent. The same cant be said for any other villain so far.

[@someguy8428]

Emerald: regrets causing beacons fall also Emerald: doesn't care about mentally torturing someone (Pyrrha Penny fight)

[@randomcenturion7264]

Inconsistency is the only constant one can expect from M&K's writing.

[@Burscutum]

It's weird, true, but just because someone is willing to hurt one or two people [ or a select few.... ] doesnt mean they'll have to enjoy destroying hundreds of lives. Another thing is Emerald didnt physically hurt anyone- the only person who got physically hurt was Penny, and Emerald might not even view her as a living creature- whereas people were actually dying in the fall of Beacon. Everyone's got their limits, maybe hers are death, or even just sheer numbers. Theres lots of reasons she could feel bad about the fall of Beacon and be super fine with getting Penny killed and fucking Pyrrha up.

[@thehoodlen]

tam f I agree, when you think about it, emerald and maybe hazel are the only villains who have been shown not to necessarily be killers.

[@aflooki]

I mean, one thing is indirectly killing one person in a fucked up way, and another thing destroying an entire school, filling it with trigger-happy robots and deadly grimm and endangering thousands of people.

[@xmystic1562]

Galten she’s not but I wouldn’t be surprised if they made her one

[@ACuteLIttleGirl]

It all went downhill when Torchwick died and got much worse when Salem became the main antagonist.

[@sassui90]

As much as i love Torchwick i think he died around the right time, but i feel the way they did it was underwhelming and i think it coulda been more impactful specially to Ruby, make it mean something to her, like learn how some people turn bad from losing hope or something similar. At least they can't ruin him now...

[@jadeskye3673]

@@sassui90 I wonder... Would it have been better to have Roman progress in a way where he is beginning to have a change of heart because of his nemisis, Ruby, the proceeds to die trying to do some good? Maybe he dies trying to save her out of respect, etc.

[@toliniewilliams8476]

Salem as '' potential " at least we didn't wait more than six seasons for her backstory

[@sassui90]

@@jadeskye3673 It's hard to tell, we didn't see Roman show faith in good, closest was the care he had for Neo. But for all we know he might have entirely given up on selflessness. It's not like Adam where he wanted to do good for other faunus, cept only faunus and through bloodshed.

[@e.ggrollg.uacamole4156]

It kinda feels like they went (from a Naruto perspective) from Gato to immediately Kaguya.

[@OneManCast]

The reason why Neo isn't used often is because it would require effort and animation skill. Neither of which CRWBY has, let alone in spades. The latter of which is the numerous amount of which Neo's fighting choreography requires. It also doesn't help that Maya is terrible for Neo's fight choreography.

[@fyrewatermelons]

Cinder is evil waifu bait. That is her purpose.

[@fyrewatermelons]

@@galten7361 Cosplay opinion aside, I agree. Cinder could pass as an evil sister if she wanted to.

[@kyryu2890]

@@fyrewatermelons what if she was Cinderella's step sister instead of Cinderella

[@ineedanewname4844]

Galten Jessica is no thot mate. But the rest of your comment is fairly accurate

[@noodleks956]

"If Ruby forgave emerald i would lose faith in the whole series" ...that didn't age well XD

[@hazelcrisp]

Cinder's writing makes me so frustrated. There are so many questions about her character that if you write her properly there is potentially so much you could explore and do with her. But noooo. RWBY gives me so much false hope. People enjoyed vo 6 but I didn't it was pretty lackluster nad mediocre

[@shadyblackgaming3561]

I agree about cinder, I have a love/hate with her. I love what we have but hate that we dont get what we really need about her. She is still my favorite villian though just because of what she could be.

[@Neo-op3iz]

Shadyblack Gaming same

[@AlterExo_]

I only like the neo vs cinder fight, and that was it. Though it is kind of ruined at the end, by them teaming up. I wish neo either beat cinder and/or (ran away) became some sort of third party. (against the villains and the heroes on her path for revenge.) since in her eyes, they could be both responsible for torchwick's death.

[@my_artflare]

I agree with everything you said in this video; I'm very disappointed with how Miles and Kerry write Cinder and all the other villains

[@Majokodomo]

Those two don't care about writing good villains! They just care about pandering! >.

[@ElectromagNick]

I'm disappointed with their writing in general. I can give them props on some aspects, but they really haven't put in all that much effort writing-wise. RWBY never really had the best writing or develooment, but at least Monty's sheer force of personality and inexplicable ability to develop characters through fights and action despite writing by the seat of his rocket pants. I'd be curious to see exactly what his plans for the series were, and how much he actually had planned out before his unfortunate passing

[@Neo-rs3bo]

I am best girl

[@furnoprime9439]

Indeed

[@DocMicrowave]

I concur.

[@agentmonika2521]

Yes you are, yes you are

[@vel7712]

Of course, who else would be?

[@gaminggoof1542]

@@agentmonika2521 She doesn't even have to speak

[@kumbi8368]

You know. It would be really cool, if Cinder started off condescending and smug, but every time she lost, she became a little more desperate, paranoid and unhinged, until she went full Azula on everyone. Edit: All the while her Grimm arm slowly consumes the rest of her body to physically represent this.

[@restinplace1464]

Torchwhick really was the best villian and he died in such a random way. Ruby really didn't do anything. He actually had depth as explained here and WAAAAAAAY TOO MUCH POTENTIAL TO DIE. And we deserved more fight scenes with him. Also he could have easily faded off into obscurity and came back like Neo

[@jayfeather7676]

This 10000%

[@dustyfedora]

Watch as Neo shows us where she was by using Rukia Kuchiki style exposition drawings from Bleach Edit: on a more serious note there should be an episode that is in her perspective just remembering the past and that would be how we develop her past

[@heyarnold7256]

lawl

[@acoolnameemm]

Thing with Roman is: he didnt even need to fit into the Salem plot. Let him just be a minor character who dipped out of Cinder's group after Vale. Just let him be in it for a share of the Dust. He could disappear after Volume 3, take a two or three Volume break and then, oh shit, Torchwick is doing crime in one of the other kingdoms. Have him suddenly reappear with a "Oh my GOD! _Red!_ It has been _such_ a long time!"

[@edi9892]

I liked Cinder until her recovery... To me, there were enough puzzle pieces being given to speculate on her, but not explain anything. My assumptions: She´s in her early 20s. She still looks young enough and while she does have life experience, she hasn´t matured enough to be in her 30s (as priorities start changing when you realise that your clock is ticking). She probably came from a rich home, but lost everything. She can blend in with the high society and acts like a spoiled brat, with a grudge on the world for having lost her lifestyle... She was probably victimised in one way or another. She rather prefers to be feared than desired or loved, as strength is everything that counts for her. She acts tough and very confident, but at times seems to be very insecure. She probably trusts no-one and would be willing to sacrifice anyone for her goals. She seems to have an aversion to men and the nation of Atlas. Especially, _she was right about you. So much arrogance_ really calls for speculations...

[@emeraldsky2823]

Torchwick was the joker to Ruby’s Batman. Now that’s gone and Batman moved on from joker to firefly. (Cinder)

[@bluemew22]

Since Roman's Semblance was never revealed (I have my doubts about the hammerspace Sheepgirl's Semblance being a recycle) I propose a stupid broken one for him: Survivor. So long as Roman has the will to keep fighting/living, he can't actually be killed, the writers get Carte Blanche to do any bullshit whatsoever to keep him coming back. In effect, this could let his soul take over the Nevermore that ate him and mutate it into a Roman-voiced talking Grimm with an Aura.

[@failingeverything5793]

Raven as a raven: So you too huh? Griffin Roman: Shut up Qrow as a crow: No fair, why are you bigger

[@sleeptimezzzz6737]

Remember when you said if Emerald joined the good guys you'll lose all faith?. Yeah uh I'm sorry but-

[@finalechance7756]

"The last thing I would want them to do is join the good guys' side." Oof.

[@jedimeyer1298]

Torchwick's death is senseless. Seriously, I don't recall Ruby getting all that many hits in. The guy should have had at least half his Aura still. He should've easily blasted his way out of that Grimm.

[@brosephnoonan223]

Ya know... Its a bad critique but on the topic of Cinder - you ever notice Jessica has a bit of a lisp? It also sounds like she's out of breath halfway through her delivery, or rather, like she's holding her breath. I dont like the criticism of "bad voice acting" when someone is an amateur. Jessica Nigri was asked to be on the project because RT liked her cosplay work (and if you're cynical, because someone higher up either wanted to be around a really hot girl, or use a really hot girl to market their product). She wasnt invited due to a history as a VA, and expecting her to deliver her lines like Grey DeLisle (Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender) or Laura Post (Ragyo from Kill La Kill). But! A bad character with a good voice actor can change the way a character a feels, even if the writing isn't great, or more accurately, the choices made for a character's voice change how they feel. Neo is adored despite saying _nothing_ and having _nothing_ going for her besides being entertaining to watch, she was Torchwick's _sidekick_ who showed up twice in the second volume, of the show, and preceded to due virtually nothing since. Cinder is hated despite being a central antagonist with ties to more than half the cast, the villain who has single handedly _killed_ 3 heroes on screen, with 2 of them being made out to be extremely powerful and competent fighters. She's by far the most successful villain in the whole series, and she's nearly died twice, but has managed to crawl back from the brink both times! You would _think_ with that kind of power, skill, and tenacity she would be a fan favorite by merit of what she _does,_ in the same vein as Adam. But she's not. She learns and develops about as much as Torchwick (who makes the same mistake everytime) or Adam (who makes the same mistake every time) so it's not that she's not developing, and it's not that she's not learning. It's a fallacy to suggest a villain NEEDS to develop, many of the best villains never really do (The Joker from Batman is the personification of this, Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2 is also well liked and exemplifies this) and they're all loved. Having an ENTERTAINING villain is often better than trying to have a "developed" villain. I think the problem lies in that Cinder isnt going anywhere AS a villain and more importantly, she's not a very _good_ villain. When you summarize what she does on paper it looks impressive, but when you look at _how_ she does it it's very... Pedestrian. I'd say she "bumbles" her way to success but thats not it. Its hard to place but it _feels_ like she's never as competent or dangerous as we _know_ she can be. We've SEEN her be the villain she needs to be, but things feel off now. She's supposed to be angry. Vegeneful. But we _never_ get that in how she talks, how she acts when she _needs_ to be acting that way. She never _sounds_ angry or vengeful. She *talks* like things have changed, but she doesn't *act* or *sound* like things have changed. You seem to imply here that Cinder and Neo was a bad team up, but I couldn't disagree more. Cinder *needs* people who she can leverage her confidence against to feel powerful, paired with a girl who doesnt give a *fuck* about that puts Cinder in a position where her only partner is a person who (shouldn't have) isn't going to treat her like a princess, which is what _everyone_ around Cinder does. It would have been an interesting scenario to see how Cinder reacts when Neo out-smugs her. It's a terrible shame the writers figured Neo, a character who has routinely faced down death with a smug loli look on her face, would suddenly cower to Cinder, a woman she was _handedly_ kicking the shit out of.

[@Mereel401]

I would mostly agree with your points, though I would disagree on the Neo/Cinder team-up. Neo has been shown to be a patient character, not only waiting for the most opportune moment to free Roman but also hunting Cinder across two continents. If you combine her smug look when Cinder states that she still believes in destiny with the fact, that Cinder and Neo struck their deal the same way (a handshake) as Cinder and Raven did and even did this at the exact spot where Raven and Cinder turned against one another, you can conclude, that Neo is biding her time waiting for the right moment to backstab (probably literally) Cinder after she has shown powerful abilities Neo is not sure she could beat in a head on fight. depending on whether she blames Ruby or not, she could either use Cinder to get to Ruby and then try to kill both or use Ruby as a distraction and kill Cinder.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I'd say bumbeling is correct considering her questionable actions.

[@METro_KJ]

I still think Torchwick is the best character they had and would be cool to see in the post-fall world. But if the death absolutely had to happen, it wouldve been way more interesting to have him push Ruby so far that she accidentally killed him. While Yang dealt with PTSD from losing her arm (which was underexplored), Ruby felt woefully out of place. But by being pushed to such an action, she would have to grow and explore her ideals.

[@powerneed]

Ill be honest torchwick dying was the death of the series or atleast the start of it

[@superstarultra28]

Neo and Blake's mom are best girls. Fight me.

[@iriiri7487]

No u it’s dio

[@Hashbrown1682]

Kali wins based on pure BIG MOM energy

[@sedentaryscorpion]

Well this whole bit about emerald aged well.

[@redcarp9867]

The hole in my heart, caused by Torchwick’s death, will not be filled. Also, Torchwick never unlocked his semblance, only his aura.

[@sweetwater4583]

Cinder will never go away. This voice actor is the Rooster teeth's CEO’s wife. Kind of funny I think.

[@markosimunic4770]

So its a resident evil movies situation, where the main character is the directors wife or something.

[@sweetwater4583]

Sadly never played that game. But ya, something like that, if the media I read it on is legit . Not saying much now a days I’m beginning to think. .

[@haridasharry6521]

You're wrong, the voice actress of CEO's wife is Raven Branwen.

[@sweetwater4583]

Well, that's tabloid's for you.

[@sweetwater4583]

Found this, I think I should place stuff like this on Favorites. www.imdb.com/name/nm0401502/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_lk4I'm not good making shortcuts so I hope this helps you. I do wonder about you, haridas harry why make a one shot name to post this? I don’t mind being wrong, it helps teach me to improve, like finding she did VA for Cinder for a bit, (Fall of Beacon.) so why? Also showing proff would be nice, a short cut or something.

[@samj1512]

The griffin went like: "nope, you're too well developed, we cant have that!" *chomps Torchwick*

[@slothdemon2459]

Honestly I don't care more about any character in the whole show then I still do about Roman. Even Neo is extremely boring without him. I mean I love Neo, but at this point it's more because of me imagining what her relationship with Roman could be.

[@domothebro2435]

Didnt realize how much I missed Roman and the roman neo pair until now. Couldve been great dialougues and exchanges between them and salems group or the protagonists

[@willmorbyers923]

Cinder was hot (literally AND figuratively) and her outfits were awesome but that is literally it

[@WeyounLP]

Not every character needs a detailed backstory that is spelled out for the viewer, especially with one like Neopolitan. A character is defined by its actions mostly, that's why you shouldn't call the lack of RT backstory telling for Roman and Neo or even Mercury/Emerald something bad. These character could make perfect sense and be enjoyable without us learning about their childhood. But knowing Roosterteeth we will still get it. Thats why I'm glad Roman died when he was in his prime, because that way they can't ruin him. Its already starting with Neo. Just looking at her new outfit makes it abdundantly clear that RT has no idea about her character but theyll make something cool, sexy and pseudo dramatic up and tell us over the course of 13 episodes of pure talking exposition. EDIT: Cinder on the other hand is a mess and I agree. Maybe they cant give her depth because her VA, jessica nigri, can only do "smooth buttery sexy voice that is in control" xd

[@aflooki]

@@galten7361 I agree that not every character needs a convoluted backstory explaining their actions, but every character (especially villains and antagonists) need at least something to explain their actions. Sure, a character's actions are what define them, but if those actions have no coherence then what's the point?

[@zendakon8299]

I loved Torchwhick's Speech. But I HATED his devouring!

[@panpan1287]

I think the biggest problem with RWBY's villains is that we know that Rooster Teeth can write good villains Take Red vs Blue for example The Meta was awesome and absolutely terrifying for all the screen time he had and we know why he's doing this, Sigma was controlling him The Director has real tangible motivations and you almost feel bad for him at the end Washington (for the short time he was a villain) was really cool and still is to this day Locus is fantastic Felix was a perfect mirror image for Locus The only villain that kinda sucked was O'Malley but RVB was still a comedy when he was around and Omega gets really well explained later on (the same can be said for Wyoming) We know Roother Teeth can write villains so it's so frustrating that RWBY's villains are so bad

[@Streamline2k]

While I personally still don't care for her, I think you and others missed the point. Cinder's arc in vol 4 is to show that what we've seen is a mask and she's deeply insecure. She clearly mimics Salem, as she believes that is how a powerful person acts. Notice how she refers to Vernal as "girl," just as Salem does the same with her. I believe there are similarities to the meeting in vol. 2 and Salem's first faction meeting in 4. All of this makes me believe that Salem was/is abusive to Cinder as Cinder is to Emerald, Cinder 4-5 outfit is even similar to Salems just like how Emerald's are identical to Cinder's older outfit. Seriously, does Salem's line "...must toil in her isolation until she redeems herself" sound familiar to anyone? Vol. 5 imo isn't her going back to normal, it's her retreating to her safe space and putting her mask back on. The same in 6, there's uncertainty in her face and voice when she first addresses Little Miss and she tries to fit it back on after Miss gives her attitude.

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

I love this idea, and it honestly never crossed my mind before. If your right I hope we get some scenes with her not presenting her "mask" so it becomes more clear to the audience it's all just a front for the people she's with. Because since we've only really ever seen her like that it feels to me like she's not wearing her "mask" to convince others, it's more that she's trying to convince herself that's who she is.

[@heyarnold7256]

Can't believe I didn't notice that. Good eye.

[@Yankeesfan4ever100]

I hope you are correct, but even then, we should've gotten more of these "Under the mask" moments in volumes 5 and 6. Honestly, I think she's just going to show up and fight Ruby only to die, just like Adam did with Blake and Yang.

[@thebajanking8890]

U might be right cause as neo came back her personality returned to how it was. She finally had someone that she view as weaker than her to control, not only that compare cinder with her group and when with Salem. When she is with her group she plays the boss but when Salem is around she is like the runt of the litter, bully and made fun of by the rest.

[@jfduug4994]

The Judgmental Critter Another thing to consider is that the reason Cinder’s character goes back to being “recovered” in volume 5 is 100% due to Salem’s abuse. It is very easy to miss, but you’ll notice Salem was forcing Cinder to recover faster rather than letting her catch a breather. Salem forces Cinder to speak, to train, she’s doing weird painful things to her Grimm arm, all of this happens when Cinder is at her lowest. More evidence of Salem’s abuse.

[@wittyvolcano63]

“If ruby forgave emerald and let her join the good guys because she’s bored sitting around in Salem’s mansion, I’d lose faith in the entire series” ……… I’m sorry

[@alexkorinth6459]

Cinder is a more developed character than Tyrion. But he's at least explicitly a 2-dimensional bad guy instead of someone who was so poorly attempted to be pinned as a sympathetic villain.

[@serenitydoessomething7656]

This didnt age well specifically because of the "emerald joining the good side" part💔

[@MasquedMocha]

And then they forgave Emerald for everything she did and Emerald for some reason joined the allies

[@GoneRampant]

Just to fill in a few things about Roman- the crew have confirmed that Roman never unlocked his Semblance. Also, his motivation is sorta revealed in his last fight with Ruby- he just doesn't wanna die and figures Cinder's got the better hand. I do have to disagree on Mercury not getting quieter moments like Emerald does- in V6 he's one of the first to realize Salem's about to snap, which makes sense when you remember he's an abuse victim and knows to read a room. Tyrian bluntly calls bullshit on Merc's insistence that he's "right where he's supposed to be," and notes that he's just too afraid to leave the cycle of violence that's become Mercury's entire life. There is stuff there, you just need to look beyond the surface level. I also *hard* disagree on the whole "Emerald is entirely to blame for her actions at Beacon" thing since you gloss over an important undertone to Emerald and Cinder's relationship- the flashback episode has Cinder slapping Emerald, and Emerald's adoration means that she'd blindly follow Cinder off a cliff if she asked her too. Emerald's an abuse victim and I feel that's an important part of her character that needs to come up around discussions involving her, and I feel it's a shame you glossed over this, especially since you make a point of noting Emerald's more subtle character moments. I think you were on the ball about Cinder and Roman, and to a lesser extent Neo, but I feel like you missed a lot of the point regarding Emerald and Mercury's characterization and it really bogged the video down as a consequence.

[@MercuryBlackN]

In quite glad you feel so strongly about me.

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

Interesting thing, before committing to this video I was originally planning on just having a video talking only about emerald and Mercury. In that original script I was planning on going into more detail about Cinder's more abusive nature towards Emerald. However I wasn't sure how to fit that into this script, since the emerald and Mercury section of it is already so long. I decided to shelve that topic and save it for a later video i'm planning on making about RWBY's handling of abusive relationships. Mercury's character I struggle with, while I do enjoy his character I feel like he hasn't gotten nearly as much screen time as he should. His personality has a lot of potential to be an interesting point of conversation but in recent volumes his entire personality has been missing. he's not sassy or cracking off jokes anymore. They also keep hinting at him having a really intriguing story about his life with his father. Both when he mentions to Emerald his dad stole his semblance, and just by listening to the song "i'm the one" from volume 3 do we get little hints of something. but the problem is they're just refusing to tell us anything more concrete. Mostly I feel Mercury's character could be stronger if they actually let him do something or speak up more.

[@GoneRampant]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 As a Mercury main, can't agree more on the idea of "Give him more to do."

[@brandonontama2415]

I like Mercury, I'm fine with pure evil villains as long as their fun and entertaining, and he has a cool fighting style. I personally think RWBY villains having a backstory is a bad idea since they tend to get worse. Plus not all villains have to be deep.

[@benjaminmcneil574]

Competently written is all people ask for.

[@bearandthebull2372]

Deep no,but a reason is at the very least required.Mercury has had bad experiences with corrupt authority like his dad,they can build on that and make him question salem at certain points. Instead he just sits and kills for no reason.

[@brandonontama2415]

@@bearandthebull2372 And that's fine, not all villains need an motivation, I can never understand why people dismiss pure evil villains, they can work just fine.

[@ethanchoi7036]

@@brandonontama2415 I agree, but some are tired of pure evil. Some prefer evil for a reason that makes you think about your own motives, feel bad for the character, or at least understand what makes the character the bad guy.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Because pure evil villains normally a sign of laziness bradon. Much like villains who costantly claim everything was their doing are normally lazy creations.

[@JackestheSmug]

man parts of this video aged like milk

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

For real! The thing that really gets me though is my old, crappy mic I was using! UGH!

[@sophieanimates2965]

Honestly Neo and Torchwick are a really good duo. Not only are their fighting styles amazing and can work almost seamlessly together THEIR WEAPONS match each other as well! An umbrella and a cane work really well together as they’re used a lot back in the olden days. God I really miss Torchwick.

[@MercuryBlackN]

Being a terrorist who most likely killed innocent humans isn't REALLY a crime, but killing something that was never alive to begin with is inexcusable.

[@brandonontama2415]

I love you man.

[@benjaminmcneil574]

@ItoMadWorld ... You scare me.

[@twilightlordyt7835]

Next OG fan on the list!

[@sho3445]

It's been years and Torchwick and Neo are still probably my favorite villains

[@my_artflare]

I think what could help is them having more episodes and longer episodes so they have the time to actually develop the characters

[@lightdragoon88]

If they stop releasing volumes every October and instead make it every other October, they will have more time to write, animate, watch, and redo episodes till they are ready.

[@my_artflare]

Lightdragoon88 that too

[@brosephnoonan223]

Or they could just get better writers

[@lightdragoon88]

@@brosephnoonan223 means nothing if they dont have time to animate it.

[@brosephnoonan223]

@@lightdragoon88 They seem to have plenty of time to animate. The volumes come out with their passable animations as is. The animation isnt the problem.

[@seph4707]

I'm ok with Torchwick's death. Mostly because they'd probably wreck him in later volumes, but also because he got mixed up in something way too big for him, he tried to play it for his own sake, and got chopped off like the insignificant thug he was. I miss him dearly though...

[@freida8378]

I really miss Torchwick actually and Neo is A BOSS xD Also, I miss Cinder's old hair SO MUCH.

[@Rolynnnn]

Old video I know, but incase nobody else brought this up. Neo's backstory was (vaguely) explained in her song from volume 6 'One Thing' if you pay attention to the lyrics you can see Roman meant a LOT to Neo because they imply that Neo had nothing, nobody around her, and Roman was that someone, so although it isn't much, the song gives us something for Neo. :)

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

I don't really count it if it's only going to be told to us through the soundtrack. Team RWBY can't just google the lyrics to "one thing" to get a better understanding of their adversary after all.

[@Rolynnnn]

@@thejudgmentalcritter6584 Nono I get what you mean in a in universe mindset, it obviously doesn't help for the characters, I was just so meaning for us as the viewers as it just gives us a bit of an idea of her backstory. :)

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

@@Rolynnnn Very true! :)

[@jjswifthd]

Damn straight. Like I screamed no at the top of my lungs what torchwick died. Like why am I saying no for a bad guy?

[@memesaucestudios1537]

11:50 Oh no, I'm so sorry *vol 8*

[@lopresti101]

Agent Nadeem, from Daredevil Season 3 was gonna get 5 years of prison for being in the same room of homicidal murder and said nothing. He was solicited in that. Ilia, was working with the white fang, wounded Sun, messenger resting below the waves and attempted murder....of course, a redemption arc!, truly she must be redeemed because.... she knows the people she was trying to murder and it’s like a family favor? All forgiven? And now Emerald.

[@lopresti101]

Galten It’s headache inducing of just trying to map it out. I think even Miles said on another gameplay show he doesn’t wanna write for RWBY anymore and has just lost interest in it. That’s sad.

[@augustbeller]

Cinder should’ve been like Azula But she’s not 😭😭

[@lillie_trash]

Actually i heard from somewhere torchwick didnt actually awaken his aura he was just *really* good at fighting

[@Tayanator]

He didn't awaken his semblance, he did awaken his aura though

[@sharksarerightcool1681]

I can’t believe they are gonna repeat the same character arc for cinder a third time

[@KeeKage37]

Here’s the problem that I have with the argument that “Emerald is responsible for Penny’s “death,” so she is beyond redemption.” In an earlier episode(hell you even showed the scene in this video.) Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury, go over there plan. And Cinder looks over schematics she has of Penny proving she’s a robot. Now I assume she showed this to emerald as well, meaning Emerald also knows she’s a robot. So my question is, why should Emerald feel guilty about being responsible for destroying Penny when she knows she’s a robot, and not a flesh and blood person? A robot she has never meet at that point, and has no connection with. At that point she may as well see her as another peace of Atlas tech. As far as the attack on Amber is concerned that was back when the plan was to use the Grimm bug to such the maiden powers out of her. Not outside kill her. Also I get the feeling that Cinder has Emerald on a very “need to know,” basis. So she likely never knew at the time all the death and destruction these actions would cause. Hence her shocked and remorseful look back near the end of volume 3.

[@tophatius7534]

I think it says something when the only problem with Roman was he was killed off to soon, ill be honest though im kinda happy about that so he didn't get ruined like all the other villains

[@gecff8099]

I'm glad Salem's taken center stage as the biggest bad of the series. She's one of the only villains that we've gotten to know so personally. That's mostly attributed to her being such an integral part of the world and plot. It kinda feels like they're afraid to develop any characters cause it'd take time away from driving the plot. At least the conversation with Emerald and Mercury is hope that this'll change

[@davesayswords]

I agree that Roman was the most fleshed out character, and his partnership with Neo was one of the best parts of this show. I hate how they killed him off, and how Neo is under utilised and mostly unexplained. But you got one thing wrong imo... why was Roman doing what he was with Cinder? Hardly a business opportunity. It was through fear. He states more than once he does what he has to survive. He knows to refuse is to sign his own death warrant. Cinder/Salem are hardly gonna let someone ao resourceful/skilled/dangerous just say no and walk away. He tells Ruby about the bad people he works for and about how little she actually knows. That tells me he KNOWS something about Salem/Oz. Maybe from Cinder, or his underworld connections. Maybe from Ms Malachite and her spider org (i mean her daughters work for the guy who Roman hired goons off of). Depends how far the web of connections spreads in the criminal underground (pun obviously intended).

[@justanidiotontheinternet6365]

Cinder is so bad that I literally groan everytime she comes on screen

[@moeheil8839]

No character is irredeemable! I can't believe that, cus I want neo to betray cinder and begrudgingly join Ruby!

[@thomasraines1396]

Chibi Cinder is more enjoyable then her mainline counterpart: Chibi Cinder is over the top camp we’re not meant to take seriously, Main Cinder is over the top camp we’re meant to take seriously. Neo just feels sort of “there” I feel like she should’ve died along with Torchwick as more of a thematic (I hope I’m using that right) change, she and Torchwick were nothing more then thieves wrapped up in something much bigger then themselves and the series quickly went onto to become about Gods and world ending the stuff.

[@vaulttechunter8368]

RWBY is basically a copy of Borderlands. Maidens are Sirens Semblences are abilities Dust is Euridium Yang is Brick Blake is Mordecai Wiess is Lillith only flipped elements and wealth And Ruby is Roland Only Borderlands has better villains and better story

[@darknerdman9816]

19:42 she is based on Cinderella who is her evil step mom? That aged like wine.

[@darkreflection9087]

Neo is my favourite Rwby character she always has the best lines

[@serenitydoessomething7656]

Me randomly through the video: wait whose cinder-

[@lauranichol3791]

Cinder should’ve been eaten by the Griffin not Torchwick smh

[@lowqualitytrash7034]

I've started hating these videos a lot, not because I disagree with them, but because Its makes me hate rwby even more, and makes me wish that the writers would do something to fix the story of a show I once loved

[@chanceenglish7769]

6:53 fun fact, their not even modeled there, its just 2D concept art moving forward

[@denmark1226]

Torchwick is the best villain

[@vicentetemes5793]

Gonna call it right now: Neo can speak but she won't because Roman called jinx on her during some banter, and she needs to wait for someone to call her Neo Politan three times, but Torchwick was the only one who knew her surname so she's resigned herself to her wordless fate.

[@twilightlordyt7835]

Na. But! We know she's not mute. It was confirmed that she has a voice actor. I personally think it's Casey Williams, but that's just my opinion.

[@vicentetemes5793]

@@twilightlordyt7835 Does not disprove my very correct and true theory.

[@twilightlordyt7835]

@@vicentetemes5793 Proof?

[@vicentetemes5793]

@@twilightlordyt7835 Gesundheit.

[@tamamonomae2740]

My own two scents Neo is the best. Mercury and emerald were great. But not anymore. Mercury and emerald before gave this 'they don't like each other on surface level but they know they do amazing together on the inside' type of thing. So they always seemed fine together even if they didn't do much. But not anymore with the latest volume splitting the 2. Mercury wanted power or a good life and a fun time, cinder was an easy means to get it. So he joins. Emerald followed cinder because of fear but comes to love her so she joins. Now? They literally do nothing. And Mercury's backlash towards emerald seems a bit out there since, as a logical person should be, the possible loss of the only effective boss/villain among a cast of idiotic one would and should make him more neutral and wanting to escape salem's place. So this is honestly bizarre that he would try to defend salem despite the fact that his in a even worst spot by not having Cinder there. Cinder is great. While most people prefer when she was brought to her lowest. I enjoy her more as how she is because her backstory can fix it all. Until volume 6 where her belief in destiny is now a fucking joke because before it sounded like she was forced into her position. But now she's just saying she's been always lucky getting out of her horrible positions she got in before so holy fuck they butchered her hard. Now her seeking of power is to avoid being thrown down instead of possibly being a means to overpower her horrible and desperate situation. Though that does explain how stupid she was during volume 5. Roman. Is god of villains. He deserves to be brought back and escape on a white horse with Neo. Never to be part of this show and the possibility of being ruined like others.

[@jayfeather7676]

I would literally kill for a Roman and Neo mini series, or hell even full series. But only if there was actually competent writers behind it

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Cinder could be great for anything with her.

[@handhelder823]

It makes sense, if we consider that to Mercury, it's a line of profession and he wants to be on the winning side

[@edi9892]

I did think that Romans death was fitting. It wasn´t just a funny variation of the interrupting the villain talking, but also the price of being too cocky. He probably thought that he´d be safe from the Grimm working for Salem, but he wasn´t...

[@jayfeather7676]

Roman was the best villian in the show, i miss him and really wish they did/will actually utilize what an awesome character he is

[@hekk_u]

i think we all know why the show went down hill from vol2

[@TheGamersState]

Cinder is literally the prime example of having a character that is all power and no substance.

[@anoydorang3863]

11:51 uhhhhhhhh… 😐

[@holypotatopaladin20]

Torchwick is the only reason I watched rwby (-_-)

[@jayfeather7676]

Basically this

[@HydeoKojima]

I don't usually take the time to comment on these videos, but honestly, this is some really good stuff. Had to comment how the Emerald section does not age well after today's episode. Hopefully they won't go the route that I think that they're taking, buuut. . I don't have a lot of faith at this point. Good stuff!

[@wesleytocool]

It took 7 years but we finally get to start to see Cinder's backstory and it is so boring and such a disappointment. It was like the crew got annoyed with everyone saying she needs a backstory so they just threw some crap together, didn't even care if it made sense or not.

[@thejudgmentalcritter6584]

I disagree! :)

[@dolph5357]

It would honestly be really satisfying to see Emerald revenge kill Cinder for using her

[@cookiesandcream7668]

Cinder could have either A. Grown as a person B. Azula arc where she goes insane But she does neither ;-;