Orcs and the Industry of War | LOTR Monsters Pt. 1

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The Lord of the Rings is the best war movie.
Links:
Patreon: / themorbidzoo
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Sources:
TNEH, DAVID. “Orcs and Tolkien’s Treatment of Evil.” Mallorn: The Journal of the Tolkien Society, no. 52, 2011, pp. 37-43. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/.... Accessed 16 Aug. 2024.
TNEH, DAVID. “The Human Image and the Interrelationship of the Orcs, Elves and Men.” Mallorn: The Journal of the Tolkien Society, no. 55, 2014, pp. 35-39. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/.... Accessed 16 Aug. 2024.
Bergen, Richard Angelo. “‘A Warp of Horror’: J.R.R. Tolkien’s Sub-Creations of Evil.” Mythlore, vol. 36, no. 1 (131), 2017, pp. 103-22. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/.... Accessed 16 Aug. 2024.
Tally, Robert T. “Let Us Now Praise Famous Orcs: Simple Humanity in Tolkien’s Inhuman Creatures.” Mythlore, vol. 29, no. 1/2 (111/112), 2010, pp. 17-28. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/s.... Accessed 16 Aug. 2024.
Tally, Robert T. "Demonizing the Enemy, Literally: Tolkien, Orcs, and
the Sense of the World Wars." Humanities 2019, 8, 54; doi:10.3390/h8010054

[@themorbidzoo]

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[@CR4ZYeyes]

I'm guessing this has nothing to do with Street Sharks?

[@CasualFox12495]

Looks like Zoo's back on our menu!!

[@kripposoft]

Yummy :3

[@Best_Stressed]

Lol

[@Katask0p0]

And she is cooking!

[@Polemicist_]

Absolutely stunning. My jaw just about fell off my face 😂

[@Foojum]

​@@Best_Stressed 9

[@Dirty0o0Jester]

The fact that Orcs were once beautiful people that were taken and twisted by a jealous and greedy higher power is very important to remember. This can happen to anyone. There are those out there that will take your creativity and smash it into drive. They will take your love and force it to rage, they will take your time and twist it into productivity. Everything I just listed is not inherently a bad thing. Not when used to motivate, protect, and thrive. But to do that you have to resist those that would covet and hoard all that is good in the world. Im not sure what the best recipe is for a truly just and whole world is, but I know damn well what it looks like when it isn't those things. Friends, Just be excellent to one another. Its the best we got at the moment.

[@Nykandros]

What if a truly "whole" world actually isn't just at all? Is it just when the mighty lion snaps down on the neck of a weak gazelle? Who would gaze upon nature itself and say that it isn't "whole"?

[@Dirty0o0Jester]

​​@@Nykandros what are you getting at? We're not Animals. The lion kills the Gazelle to feed their pride. To get sustenance. Nature is indeed by definition a cycle that does not have a lot of kindness I'll grant you. But we have pretty much entirely circumvented that cycle. Are you defending corporations and tyrants that prey on impoverished peoples? Are they your figurative lion? Or are you trying to say the world without us is already whole? Because on that I think we agree, but here we are.

[@winstonpeanutbutter]

@@Dirty0o0Jesterwe are animals though.

[@willfeen]

It reminds me of Israelis or any warlike settler state. To accomplish the grand objective, which requires inhuman amounts of violence, generations of beautiful children are turned into “Golems” through trauma conditioning, coldness, abuse, and bullying which strictures their somatic system (“the people here think Jesus is a doormat”). Without a healthy somatic system humans are capable of enormous feats of violence, wittingly or unwittingly. Each generation trauma-conditions the next generation in turn. The solution would be “Somatic abolition” on an individual and societal level. Israel seems to be a remarkable case, since it is a relatively new country where, rather than cycling, this has only been an intensifying trend, with today’s youth being further Right than any preceding generation. What Israel and the US have been able to accomplish, in terms of economy and territory, using monstrous violence is jawdropping. The side effect is, just like with the Uruks in the camp or Cirith Ungol, a somatically berserked population inevitably falls upon itself in violence. This is reflected in the mass shootings and sexual violence in the US, Hannibal Directive and sexual violence in Israel, and high suicide rates in both, especially among shock troopers (those who were most somatically damaged). René Girard’s “I See Satan Fall Like Lightning” is useful reading here.

[@willfeen]

@@winstonpeanutbutter It is very important to remember and honor our connection with God. It makes us so unique among “animals” that we are more than fit to be the caretakers of every other species, and indeed have served in that capacity for tens of thousands of years. The perspective that you seem to raise reminds of the Judge’s philosophy in Cormac McCarthy’s “Blood Meridian.” It is a fallacy, of a disturbed character who represents the absence of God and is literally stark white and without a hair or blemish on him. Unnatural. The absence of God (Evil) is certainly a reality, but it is not an inevitability, and I believe it is at odds with balance, not part of balance. To restore balance we must not think of ourselves as just animals whose natural condition is to tear at each other. Humans are only capable of such cruelty when something has gone terribly wrong with the somatic system and we are in a sunken state of somatic unhealth. I recommend reading about “Somatic abolition.”

[@BayaRae]

What are the political, economic and philosophical implications of orcs having menus? 🤔I hope it's addressed in a four hour video essay.😤

[@user-uv2cp1qd1j]

Was the menu orc some sort of chef? Or is it more complex? He could be just the person who orders stock for the restaurant. Or even multiple restaurants

[@uvexar3634]

If you consider the cry "Khazad ai-menu" which means "The dwarves are upon you," maybe orcs use menu as "it's here" or something. "Meat's here" Lol

[@BayaRae]

I think the best excuse I've heard is that Saruman had side gigs and the orcs learnt through osmosis.🧐

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

the implication is that it is a movie and that i am excellent company at parties

[@k.g.7591]

The orc yearns for art and freedom and the closest it can get is a wider variety of food, and the barest smidgen of choice.

[@rabbit190]

Reading LOTR for the first time I expected to be most engaged by the fellowship and the stories of heroic sacrifice. Instead, I found myself absolutely GLUED to anything related to the Orcs. I would read and re-read sections because every bit of their lore is intensely interesting. The cultural differences between regions, the attitudes and behaviors of different clans, the social practices and hierarchies within combat units etc etc. I couldn't get enough.

[@themorbidzoo]

@@rabbit190 big same 💯

[@crazykenna]

Me, too! When I read Two Towers I was so pleasantly surprised to enjoy the orcs who took off with Merry and Pippin. Made me sad for them, they exist in a world that seems, by design, to not allow them to exist. A vision of a peaceful world doesn't include them, that sucks.

[@Megthep3p]

When I was getting back into Middle Earth, I didn't really have a favorite of the peoples yet, but when I started playing and reading about the LOTR Legacy Minecraft mod, I became deeply interested in the orcs (and dwarves). Through the mod I was able to experience the world and found the history of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and they are my favorite. Mountain orcs, friendly but separate from Mordor, surviving for a long time without the Dark Lord, making their own advances under a chieftain or the loyalty to a dead chieftain, and setting up their own towns/fortresses in twisted caverns and jagged peaks. They made raids as far as the Shire, barely survived the onslaught of all 7 houses of the dwarves, and still struggling on after the Battle Of Five Armies. Even having their own strong, man-high orcs as Bolg's bodyguard and getting around their sunlight weakness with a gigantic swarm of bats.

[@gengisgio]

Morbid Zoo talking about the Lord of the Rings and it is only part 1? I am so fucking on board.

[@scot2814]

I couldnt click any faster XD

[@chairshoe81]

relax kid

[@halseypayne4249]

Yeah I am IN

[@Hax523]

“Being fearless is the not same as having courage”. God damn

[@DefeatedRoyalist]

“Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways.” - Good ol John Wayne

[@Billpro25]

Courage, just like romantic love, is something rare. One finds the fearless more often than finds the brave.

[@Kastrounaras]

11:43 In my mind, gunpowder is wizard technology, not Uruk. Gandalf's fireworks are good foreshadowing for how this same technology can be used for evil by a, well, evil wizard.

[@Polemicist_]

@@Kastrounaras Good call out. Makes sense.

[@jorger1818]

Came to write a comment to say exactly this. It's notable that in Middle Earth, orcs don't really seem like a threat except specifically when they're being led by a powerful magic wielding figure.

[@Hedonite]

It's implied this is the case in the book as well by a comment made by aragorn i think

[@VolkerWendt-vq8pi]

Well, in the hobbit we are told otherwise. Though the Orcs didn't use it in the battle of the 5 armies

[@Wrynwynn]

You are without a doubt the most fascinating rising star in the video essayist community, and I am more excited to watch this piece than I have been for almost any other essayist this year.

[@themorbidzoo]

@@Wrynwynn thanks, hope you like ☺️

[@Wrynwynn]

@@themorbidzoo Positive I will!

[@Wrynwynn]

Yup! Loved it!

[@mono90286]

Agreed.

[@wavetactics13]

You have no idea how refreshing it is to find a discussion on Tolkien's orcs that addresses the industrial and warlike themes instead of getting bogged down in accusations of his orcs being some racist caricature.

[@laisphinto6372]

Also in the books the armies of sauron and saruman Had plenty Other races Most noteably plenty of Humans in their Ranks. The war of the Ring was a losing Battle against gondor, Rohan and the Last remnants of elves and IT should have been the unstoppable march of Progress and Industrialistion against the old world.

[@Lordofrye]

It's especially remarkable because, while I think the orcs carry a very different meaning, there are a plethora of other, more explicit racist caricatures within Tolkin's books that one could address.

[@yakubduncan9019]

So much of the discourse is hashing out what they diagetically were within Tolkien's legenderium, I think you're the first commenter I've seen to take a step back and actually analyse their symbolic role in the story in this kind of dept. Keep up the good work.

[@mjlamey1066]

This video just completely changed my perspective on my military service and has suddenly made a lot of people's behavior while I was in make a whole lot of sense.

[@scottabc72]

I always appreciated Jacksons portrayal of orcs having little or no culture and only a force for destruction. He avoided the common tropes of having the orcs being 'savage' with things like tatoos, outlandish hairstyles etc... because these things are only 'ugly' from a certain cultural perspective and are often original and creative. Instead the orcs are shown with industrially produced or scavenged equipment and symbols like the Hand of Saruman that are not individual creations.

[@IStealButterdToast]

I like the idea that once the Fea leaves the orcs soul, they simply become a force-of-nature like army

[@laisphinto6372]

8:18 I think what Tolkien meant to say was that Orcs were similar to how Europeans SAW the mongols when they came with genghis Khan and the mongols at that time were terrifying and unstoppable the mongols Empire existed for a reason. The Same fear and Terror europeans felt towards the mongols IS the Same the men of middle earth felt towards the orcs

[@vashranoid]

Vaguely remember that, as a Christian, Tolkien did not like the idea of making the orcs born evil. Christianity does state that anyone, no matter how evil, can be forgiven if they truly repent their sins. If the orcs are naturally evil then redemption would not be possible. Happy to be corrected if I got that wrong :)

[@uvexar3634]

Yep that was the troubling dichotomy. Orcs obviously existed, but they can't be born evil because evil can't create; but they can't be irredeemable as they appear to be because all reasoning things are redeemable.

[@oscarnewman1374]

also if they truly were born evil and irredeemable then that would mean they lack agency and therefore culpability. Without the potential to be good you can't actually be morally responsible

[@hagensteiner526]

The "orcs as soldiers dehumanised by their masters" angle was further used by Terry Pratchett in one of his Discworld novels, where orcs themselves aren't the evil but rather the men behind them holding the whips.

[@ronanodonovan3673]

This video made me think of the poem "Letter to the Person Who Carved His Initials into the Oldest Living Longleaf Pine in North America" by Matthew Olzmann

[@sabretoo]

Wow, I got chills. Thank you for introducing me to it!

[@emmahernandez]

Tell me what it’s like to live without curiosity, without awe. To sail on clear water, rolling your eyes at the kelp reefs swaying beneath you, ignoring the flicker of mermaid scales in the mist, looking at the world and feeling only boredom. To stand on the precipice of some wild valley, the eagles circling, a herd of caribou booming below, and to yawn with indifference. To discover something primordial and holy. To have the smell of the earth welcome you to everywhere. To take it all in and then, to reach for your knife.

[@nostalgicactuator8448]

@@emmahernandezAs interesting of a poem this is, I do always find it a bit bothersome how often we reach to this ideal of mankind being a loving observer, how we ought to find wonder and joy in existence (and so, how the person carving in their initials is a ‘bad’ person). It seems very anthropocentric in a sick way that wants to think it isn’t, because it asks for an ideal standard of humanity that (I feel) is only reflected in the abstract. In a way it is similar to when people describe war as incomprehensible or beyond understanding: that is true if you mean from a logical, rational perspective but it is a reach to frame it as some unknowable evil that plagues mankind. It is known, and it is evil to our higher senses, our elevated mindset that we now think of as us, but it is not unknowable to ourselves in totality. Similarly, carving your names into a tree and thus denigrating (to use a moralist term) an ancient and ‘holy’ creation is not something that is alien or even inherently lesser/uniquely a human ‘evil’. Animals engage in peaceful grazing and fly through the sky, but bears also push their snouts into the ribcages of fawns, ants genocide and wage complex wars across continents, elk lock their heads together with blood and flesh covered antlers for what are ultimately resources and mates. Animals destroy not out of some natural order that is imposed from an anthropocentric sense of nature and a desire to go away from the distressing parts of humanity, but because they are alive and everything about them begets senseless violence as much as it does serenity. So in that sense, to blame the person for carving their initials by lambasting them for “missing the wonders of the world” almost seems like a high horse, a natural wonder and joy (that they believe is somehow infringed upon through such an act) that is rooted in disconnection, in a sterilized nature. They compose poems for marks on bark and yet don’t notice the bodies that fertilized that very tree, they don’t write anything meaningful for the numbers of caribou that will later be torn to shreds or drown in a mudslide. This is a far too long reading of a po and ultimately I think from a general moral sense it’s a bit trashy to carve your initials into an old tree, but I suppose I dislike how such art seems to imply that such behavior is a deviation from the norm of life and thus worthy of scorn, rather than the selfish, desperate, imbalanced act of an animal carving and evidence of its impermanence into something that in the long run will be destroyed anyways. I mean come on, we look in awe at handprints on cave walls and bone-carved figurines from eons past, but to inscribe initials is framed as some almost alien mindset? If anything it seems like to author is trying to convince themselves that someone who would do that CAN’T feel wonder or joy, because to acknowledge that they can is to acknowledge that such behavior is entirely in line with their species, nay, with life as a whole.

[@ThatJakers]

Incredible. That chaplain quote about people thinking of Jesus “like a doormat,” hit me from so many angles. What a source! So stoked for Pt2

[@richardvlasek2445]

it's always been undescribably funny to me how the orc captains in shadow of mordor and shadow of war look, sound and emote much more expressive than the horrible CGI puppets from the hobbit despite the fact that monolith likely had 1/1000th the budget to make the games than the production company for the films had for the CGI alone

[@happyperkiness746]

Video games are different than live action….

[@celestialspartan1176]

The Orcs and Uruks of the LOTR films were when I started to appreciate practical effects and prosthetic makeup. There’s nothing more horrifying than having a creature that’s able to be portrayed by an actor through suits and prosthetics, because the reactions from the actors are real. It’s the reason why not only the Orcs and Uruks are so iconic, it’s also the reason why the Yautja (Predators) and Xenomorphs (Aliens) are so iconic.

[@aila6814]

love this, so excited for the next part. The topic of the dehumanization of the orcs in lotr is a favorite topic of mine. The state of limbo they exist in within the meta contextual world of the series makes them a very useful way to get people to discuss this topic. I think thing i think about most with this topic is about the way the orcs are hunted to extinction after the fall of sauron and the implications of the forces of "good" willingly committing genocide against a people who had been slaves to a master who has been fully removed from the equation, and while they wouldve been dealing with his lesser servants for a long time, there's the road for the orcs to be allowed to learn to find a place in the world that doesnt involve constant war and infighting to maintain such a destructive hierarchy and tolkien just doesn't do that because of the fact that wouldnt have worked with the western legendarium he was creating. I think that makes the idea all the more interesting though, as you talk about, because he was clearly uncomfortable with getting to heavily into the racialization of the orcs even though it would be inevitable with modern discussion around ethnic origns and racsim. if i was a teacher id absolutely try to use it as a jumping off point to discuss how we dehumanize groups outside our own in the real world and the various way that impacts both the groups targeted with these ideas and the way it hurts the people enacting them. again, fantastic video and im very excited to see how people respond in the comments.

[@nikolaybelousov1070]

Some 10 odd years ago I've read a D&D blogpost wherein a (highly inventive) DM tried to make orcs more interesting for himself for use in game, and conceptualize a version more tolkienesque in essence. One passage specifically bypassed the issue of origin by stating that version of orcs could come from a captive of any race - who is dragged into the orc pits wherein they're tortured and brainwashed until they're an orc themselves. I remember, reading that I've immediately thought of the bootcamp part of Full Metal Jacket. Now I'm glad I'm not the only one who made that connection.

[@abidenizart]

PLEASE PLEASE do an episode on ungoliant, the self destructiveness of her never-ending consumption, her cycle of self isolation and constant yearning for a goodness she herself destroyes, how she in the end she consumes herself and the echoes of her madness persist in her children for thousands of years until even Shelob is herself defeated by the knowledge given by elven light. Fuck i love the silmarillion

[@evillincon1]

I like how you point out a correlation in the lack of orcish autonomy is due to Tolkien’s own experience with the British military doctrine of strict ordering & punishment of deviation of those orders.

[@michaelduguay7698]

1:34 Incorrect. The extended editions of the Lord of The Rings are also streaming in my consciousness constantly

[@Kevin_the_Caveman]

"orcs are human" I can feel the nerds taking to their keyboards right now before the point is even made

[@libernihilus]

Not the OG nerds, we're nodding in silent assent. "To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Drúedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." But some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for their special enmity. Orcs and Drûgs each regarded the other as renegades." - Unfinished Tales

[@eddymercan7487]

@@libernihilus Can't be a Kinslayer if the thousands of Orcs you've killed over the years were actually mutilated MEN instead of ELVES, it's a fool-proof way of ducking Doom. Money back guaranteed if you end up locked away forever in Mandos

[@davidegaruti2582]

"Nerds" Real pepole with brains who call or got called nerds because of their relentless search for informations and understanding will aknowledge the point and either agree or disagree for their hown reasons

[@altechelghanforever9906]

​@@libernihilus Interesting, because first I assumed Orcs were elves that were corrupted by Sauron.

[@HoloThere03]

It’s disputed, but the Silmarillion says that Orcs were once Avari (the unwilling elves) that were taken and corrupted by Morgoth in the years of the trees.

[@13krava]

Damn, realizing that I’m living in a dystopia where my life is actually much more similar to orcs than hobbits really hit hard. Subscription earned 👌

[@sadago2690]

You are doing such fantastic work in scripting I am constantly in awe. I still watch the Hellriser every now and then just because of how much I enjoy it as a piece of media, let alone an essay

[@ellenbaker8553]

There's a couple of fanfics for Shadow of Mordor that I love, and one has made me feel such pity for the orcs. A couple of Uruks sit around and discuss what they'll do after the war, if they win. One says he'll get another one of those brown things they see Men make in ovens, that taste like actual food. Another thinks about the little animals that the Men keep around, caring for them even though they can't kill anything, and wishes he could have something to care for. Another says he just wants a nap. He just wants to find somewhere to lie down where no one will whip him and make him march further, and sleep until he's ready to wake. And it ends with a last Uruk reminding them of the truth. They'll never live to see the end of it. They're just replaceable cogs in the great war machine and they'll wear out and die in misery long before any promised reward. So there's no point in even imagining a better life - all that does is make this one hurt more.

[@drot13]

This is making me cry...

[@TheNinetySecond]

I had legitimately forgotten what an actual video essay written by an actual academic felt like. This was wonderful.

[@IAMA1]

When the video essayist is... an essayist 🫢 You love to see it

[@frederickvictor2038]

Thanks so much for your brillant thoughts. I just had a shitty intership where i got yelled at a lot and everyone around me is like lol get used to it bro. Makes me think a lot about my "personal exit" (if you know what i mean), but kinda motivated to make my existence a chance to make the world a better place. You are one of those sources of motivations for me. ❤

[@themorbidzoo]

Oh gosh, thank you ❤ hope you’re doing better now, you deserve to

[@combatdoc]

I deployed to Iraq in 2004, three months after Return came out. It's embarrassing how many times I quoted LotR films to my soldiers. Tolkien was a WWI vet and it comes through. Some of the battle scenes in Return are the most violent I've seen.

[@marksalmoneussorcerersupreme]

Correct Tolkien fought in World War I and he was writing Lord of the Rings in WW2. Many WWI Veterans were actually very very bitter about the Great War because it was absolutely pointless. To put it simply it was a prick waving fight.

[@jordan11752]

“ooo, an lotr video” Morbid Zoo: you are literally an orc

[@sabretoo]

One of the best ideas I've ever seen on Orcs was some random KZbin comment on a video I can't remember! They said something like, the Orcs have no free will because creating a being without free will is the most evil thing Tolkien could imagine. I have to agree, that is very evil. The trouble is, as a reader I still feel pity for them, even if there is truly nothing to pity, in the same way humans feel love for animals who can't love us back, or sadness for the Mars rover Curiosity singing happy birthday to itself and saying "My battery is low and it's getting dark." On the topic of robots, I think it is fun to compare Tolkien's orcs to Asimov's robots, who are also beings created without free will, but are often more sympathetic than their human counterparts. The difference could be in fantasy vs sci-fi, or Catholic vs Jewish/humanist authors, or simply that orcs are created only for violence while robots could have any purpose. A friend of mine brilliantly pointed out that the fact that Asimov's main robot creator is named Susan Calvin could be an allusion to predestination, as in, we humans have the godlike ability to control our robots' destinies. I love that you point out that Tolkien's world is unfinished. I know from personal experience that being a thoughtful and faithful Catholic is an inherently contradictory experience, as is trying to make up a world that is fantastical yet makes sense. Have you read the Discworld novel "Unseen Academicals?" There is a brilliant Orc character in that named Mr. Nutt. It's pretty clear that Terry Pratchett had strong feelings about this "inherently evil" concept. Also, have you seen the cheesy Rankin-Bass LotR cartoons, specifically the Orc song "Where there's a whip there's a way?" It casts the Orcs as miserable workers like you say here and also has a funky bass line.

[@Polemicist_]

@@sabretoo Damn this is a good comment.

[@MatthiasPendragon]

About your point about still pitying the Orcs: Tolkien, I think, would agree that you should. While orcs get less leniency than human enemies in the books, Tolkien himself never advocated that it was "okay" to kill orcs indiscriminately (a conclusion that his detractors sometimes make but the Professor himself never does.) In fact somewhere in the "History of Middle Earth," he notes that the Elves had rules about how to deal with orcish prisoners, namely that they were not to be mistreated or tortured, or killed without cause (he regretfully also notes that, during the war, this ideal was not always followed.) GirlNextGondor mentions it in one of her videos.

[@leonardorossi998]

@@MatthiasPendragon I guess that could be explained with an interpretation where Orc is a state of being, not a race, so a redeemed orc would stop being an orc. And if that is true, that explains the idea of leniency towards them, they are basically people who are subject to some sort of influence. Of course, that might open a whole can of worms though

[@ilovenycsomuch]

I had no idea Jackson did horror movies, it makes sense now looking at the orc clips

[@andrade9172]

"They produce but they don't make" beautifuly put

[@k.g.7591]

In case anyone is saddened by the concepts of this video, I’d like to point out that Dungeons and Dragons had to make half-orcs a playable race because of players having an abiding NEED, a YEARNING to see the Orc healed and redeemed. And I think that’s kind of beautiful

[@leighamlemire8804]

Babe wake up the quirky spooky lady dropped again

[@Joobbles]

How you manage to have such a good take I have never heard before after the movies have been out for 20+ years and Tolkien scholars have been around for god knows how long is incredible to me. Please never stop doing this

[@danieldionne9709]

Man, for all the videos I've seen on Tolkien's orcs, I always learn something new from yours. The angle of orcs-as-dehumanized/dehumanizing soldier is a great insight. I was in the Army, and we first had to be dehumanized (basic training) before we could dehumanize others (OpFor, red force, or simply The Enemy). Even then, there was a constant tension between the red mist that was required to kill, and "honor". Being an old-fashioned concept, you don't hear the word "honor" much in the US military these days, but enlisted soldiers ARE preached to about martial virtues like duty, courage, respect, and tradition. It was unspoken, but we enlisted servicemen understood those virtues really belonged to commissioned officers -- not those of us expected to get our hands dirty.

[@drot13]

I am a police officer and during my education I attended a lecture on the characteristics of police officers. They talked about decision-making, principles, principles, etc., and only after some time did I realize that they were talking only about police managers. When I said that basically the lowest-ranking police officers, on the street, make life and death decisions every day, everyone looked at me in amazement. This is exactly what you are talking about, honor and philosophical questions are for the upper class, and we grunts have to bite and kick each other...

[@skateisdestiny]

came here to watch fun analysis of one of my favorite movies, leaving here teary eyed and davastated. Thank you. It's perfect. on another, somewhat related note: I find it fascinating that war movies always take place among the soldiers and the warring parties. Not the civilians caught in the whole thing. As someone who had to endure war as a child (I'm from Iraq and there was no escaping American imperialism for me), I find it fascinating that very little is written about the experience of war as a non-warring person. And when it's done, it's incredibly naive and one-dimensional. Ultimately, I think those would not be stories about war either. But there is something there that is woefully under explored. That probably is owed to the fact that the U.S. has not had war on its soil, and giving hollywood's chokehold on the movie industry, that's not super surprising.

[@themorbidzoo]

Glad it hit for you :) I have a lot more to say about this exact thing for a fat video I’m working on about Civil War, hope to see your thoughts there too

[@davidcastillo1683]

@@themorbidzoo Yes! I can't wait. (I'm willing to be wrong, but that movie was hammered shit IMO)

[@TheRealBSDigitalQ]

Man, some of that stuff about the orcs at the end reminds me so much of what has been going on with the superhero genre, especially Batman post-00s...

[@Kimberly-xg9eq]

I have never really thought of the orcs in LotR as an allegory for modern warfare. (Though it seems obvious in hindsight.) Tolkien clearly saw the horror in what WWI had turned people into; and in the destructive power of industry. It’s one reason why LotR is such a classic.

[@jpickens189]

I love how much of the recent discourse on orcs, mostly used to justify all-evil races in fantasy settings, centers on how they represent a end to our empathy or consideration of the humanity of the other, when that very desire to dehumanize seems to define their existence.

[@mattfleeman6526]

Incredible video! Loved it! Never really thought of the orcs this way, but it absolutely fits and makes me appreciate evergreen more the way Tolkien wrote his experiences in WWI into the narrative.

[@VeEmCe]

Good essay! Would have liked more of an exploration of Tolkien's Catholicism, the power of grace, pity and forgiveness in the "Can you have a good Orc?" question but as this is a series on LOTR monsters I assume we're getting all that good stuff when you get to Gollum!

[@themorbidzoo]

@@VeEmCe yep! ☺️

[@leelermakesmusic]

Your stuff is great because I feel like I'm more media literate until I try to explain what I thought I had learned.

[@MarcusApollo7]

The opening of this video was so amazing it brought me nearly to tears and it just got better from there!

[@isaacstovell867]

this was such an accurate take on orcishness. really thought-provoking video!

[@Xanzulo]

Great video! Would love for it to become a thing to call wastefulness, ignorance and violence what it really is: orc mentality.

[@chavesa5]

Orc origins are the one lore "thing" in Tolkien's work I'd genuinely wish he had done more clarity on, so this examination is excellent to watch and digest

[@klausvonklempt]

This video was excellent, and I could not be more excited for this series! I've always been fascinated by the orcs, and the idea of Sauron and Morgoth as their creators attempting to harness the power to "create" life for themselves, in defiance of Eru (God). It has always seemed like a very understandable motivation, to me, and turned seemingly remote, inhuman evil entities into characters that feel far more relatable to me than the motivations of some of the good characters.

[@Kevin_the_Caveman]

Oooof that was such a great one, I'm left wanting for more! I'm just going to watch it again. The clear writing and reading of your scripts never cease to amaze me when so many video essayists are wantonly meandering

[@juliasdb]

Your videos have consistently been some of the best content I've ever watched on KZbin. Thank you so much :) (side note: if you ever feel like sharing more about the books/essays that have influenced your work, that would be amazing)

[@themorbidzoo]

Thank you! ☺️

[@DavidLeeIngersoll]

I love listening to you speak in these videos. You sound so wonderfully pissed off - furious but controlled and focused.

[@SpookyouKnowIt23]

My laws your content is sublime. LOTRs is one of the best things ever and one of my favorites of all time and I had never gone near this interpretation. Brilliant.

[@LewisChristisonVids]

Where there's a whip, there's a way! Where there's a whip, there's a way! We don't want to go to war today, but the lord of the lash says; "nay nay nay". We're gonna march all day, all day, all day. Where there's a whip, there's a way! Left, Right Left Right Left Right. A crack on the back says we're gonna fight, we're gonna march all day and night and more, because we are the slaves of a dark lord's war!

[@justin8865]

That was wonderful. Ima former marine myself, fought in Afghanistan. While I'm very proud of my service and admittedly, it's become a core identity for me to latch on to. There's always this push and pull of what it means to have gone through that, what they instill in you. I was taught to be a "professional" to kill and destroy the "enemy" at the same time to love my brothers and put them before myself. And going through therapy huh no wonder why I (we) have so many problems in the civilian world. We need our full range of emotions and understand that everyone has their own missions; therefore, we can then live life to the fullest and become human again or unfortunately like some of my brothers and sisters become mindless jaded "orcs" of hate and violence till we destroy ourselves. I dunno, good video got me thinking. Perhaps I'll go much on some crayons.

[@MoeApocalypsis]

When Russia invaded Ukraine, Ukrainians began calling the invaders Orcs. I mused at the time how apt it seemed but also how terrible. For when you dehumanize everyone manipulated, coerced, and forced to participate in war you act in the same ways. You become orcs too.

[@pdgvsk1476]

Hi! I am Ukrainian, and I want clarify some things. Also, this is not a hate post 🙌It is clear that the reason you have come to these conclusions about manipulation and such, is because you have never experienced anything that we have to experience. So - russians are not forced to participate in war. Please, read about russian long-term aggression towards Ukraine🙏 Watch their interviews, and you'll see the hatred they feel for us. They want to make money while killing Ukrainians, a lot of them just do what they're told without asking "why am I doing it?", so they shoot because they don't care. But mostly russians want to end our existence. Because they wanted to do it for decades, as thay do against other countries and nationt they are surrounded by. Russia is trying to destroy or absorb all the surroundings. One of reasons why we call them orcs is because their main goal in life is destruction. Russians destroy everything they touch, and if they can't totally erase something - they steal it, and pretend it's originally theirs. Trying to protect ourselves - we can't became the same as them, because our main goal in life is - to live pacefully, and be Ukrainians in Ukraine. To be ourselves in our country. Unfortunately, life is not a Tolkien's book, so we cant just put some round golden thing in big volcano, and make "the evil guy" disappear, so our "orcs" stop being aggressive against us and go mind their businesses. But gosh, we wish it were possible.

[@Travis-ff5lx]

I’m a recent subscriber and have watched about a dozen of your videos. I’ve enjoyed each one on a level I rarely experience. This video, however, is the embodiment of the content I desire. I’m not a devout fan of Lord of the Rings, but I’ve read the books and watched the movies over the years. Your content and style fit perfectly with my tastes. Please continue to make these videos.

[@themorbidzoo]

@@Travis-ff5lx next one is coming right up :) thanks for the kind words and for watching!

[@ChrisGrahamkedzuel]

You understand orcs better than Rings of Power.

[@CasualFox12495]

Everything about Tolkien that works and is good can be summed up in a single sentence. (And this is not hyperbolic, I genuinely mean this.) I JUST LOVE WHAT THEY'VE DONE WITH THESE ORCS!!

[@ceciliakeller957]

This all reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: [about soldiers of the British Empire] "the rarest of his virtues was human sympathy, and the rarest of his vices cowardice'" (Jan Morris -- I originally read the quote in 'Loot' by Barnaby Phillips, HIGHLY recommend) the full section from 'loot' because I LOVE the phrasing: "Jan Morris wrote of the archetypal public school boy who manned the British Empire that the 'rarest of his virtues was human sympathy, and the rarest of his vices cowardice'."

[@dubitataugustinus]

This video needed to exist so badly!!! Thank you for highlighting these characters! They play so many important narrative and aesthetic roles, and are such an essential part of LOTR. Recently, when I saw the trilogy on theatres for the anniversary, I saw clearly how the orcs are pure movie magic. What a treat. Bless these incredible actors too.

[@archsteel7]

I really appreciate this video, because it pretty perfectly sums up my own thoughts and feelings about orcs. I think one of the most interesting things about them, which rarely gets mentioned, is the things they seem to revere. Because they don’t care for beautiful architecture, or natural beauty, or even majestic and powerful beings. They call the Nazgûl “shriekers” in the books, and even any love they have of Sauron feels coerced and fearful. But they _do_ seem to genuinely revere Grond, they chant its name and seem awe stricken at it. The thing they _love_ is an inanimate object, a weapon and a tool of war. It’s the closest they can get to creation, but all it does is destroy things. And what kind of picture does that paint of the Orcish psyche?

[@draxiss1577]

Okay so I really want to talk about my favorite 'orcs' from a fantasy series: Draconians from the Dragonlance books and D&D campaign setting. They are corrupted versions of dragons, pressed into vaguely humanoid shapes, and conscripted to serve as the shock troops for the villains of the series. Essentially, they're child soldiers but just add dragon, and hold absolutely all of the qualities you describe here. Their orcish inspiration is pretty obvious in retrospect. Like another commenter, I was always excited to glean any scraps I could about their cultures and individual personalities. The best thing about draconians (besides DRAGONDRAGONDRAGONDRAGON (I like dragons)) is that their post-war lives explored in a spin-off series, 'Kang's Regiment'. The series follows a corp of draconian engineers who struggle to survive and thrive following the defeat of the big bad villains of the main series. I think if you ever read the series out you'd have some criticisms of it that I'd agree with, but it still holds a special place in my heart. Anyways I just think they're neat!

[@ericasumrall]

Thank you for dropping this on my birthday! ❤ It was always going to be a rough one (the first one since my grandmother died) but this is such a bright spot.

[@themorbidzoo]

Condolences ❤

[@TuxedoMasc]

The orcs in 'The Hobbit' were such a let down after the amazing performances of the actors in the og trilogy. By far the best facial animation I've ever seen is from 'Arcane', the League of Legends Netflix show. Done with a finessed mix of 2D hand painted textures and backgrounds, and 3D rigging and animation, with absolutely no mocap animation. So insanely good I cannot shut up about it. So expressive without any uncanny valley affect at all. Gorgeous.

[@hagbardceline7118]

Orcs aren't the only people shown to use gunpowder. Gandalf had fireworks figured out, my interpretation there was Saruman ripped off Gandalf's gunpowder invention for destructive purposes and equipped orcs with bombs

[@themorbidzoo]

@@hagbardceline7118 that’s very true, I like that!

[@hagbardceline7118]

@themorbidzoo thanks! Came to me in my most recent reading of LOTR during the scouring of the shire bit where I was piecing together a timeline of Saruman's dealings with The Shire, cause even if not directly learned from gandalf one of his insiders could ship him a stolen firework with his barrels of pipeweed

[@TheEndKing]

Saruman "ripping off" Gandalf in general is a very funny concept. "Hang on, let me cast this light spell I invented." Gandalf starts looking at him strangely.

[@caffeinecomrade]

your videos hit every time, full stop. thank you!!!! i’ll keep coming back :)

[@themorbidzoo]

Thank you ☺️

[@platonicvulpine]

i went into this essay with some skepticism towards its assertions, but became fully convinced by the end - and i'm very excited for the next part

[@genericallyentertaining]

This is by far the most insightful analysis of orcs I've ever seen, and I've talked endlessly for years with fellow Tolkien nerds about whether orcs have free will, whether they can be redeemed, etc. You're one of the few video essayists who is able to make me just sit back and think in silence for several minutes every time I finish one of your videos. Incredible stuff. Also, what is that acoustic version of the Isengard theme playing during the credits? That goes hard.

[@themorbidzoo]

A friend composed it special for me, I keep asking him to make them available for download 😁

[@flyingfoamtv2169]

@@themorbidzooit sounds better then the originally oddly enough.

[@uberhippy9701]

Great video! I always found the orcs, and how they exist in Tolkien's moral universe, endlessly fascinating. Was watching the Rings of Power (blargh), and thinking about Adar (one of the first elf-to-orc guys) has SO much potential to explore this. Him acting as a bridge, showing how Melkor (or, industrial warfare, systems that can only instrumentalise individuals for violence etc) uses violence and war to dehumanize, degrade etc. to create the orcs. Would love to see it explored further with Adar, but,,,, Rings of Power (blargh)

[@callmev3531]

0:40, Being able to understand something equalling being able to control or avoid it isn't a guaranteed constant, especially since war and all other forms of conflict can occur over any number of reasons. The constant is the question of what conflicts are worth fighting for, worth supporting. Within the context of Tolkien Orcs, they don't fight for defense or eve for resources they need to survive, they fight for an angel that intends to be a dictator over the entire planet, they were made to be hateful, greedy, malicious and savage, the enemy of the civilized world, of peace. Other sapient species in Arda are treated as flawed, having a capacity for savagery and immorality, but also honor and virtue, virtue Orcs were specifically designed to be absent of, and so while they may come into with each other over prejudice, ego or greed, they also eventually come together against a common threat to their existence as embodied by the Orc hordes, a necessary war to replace the petty squabbles between them, all brought about by the Orcs and their master.

[@sullivandmitry1416]

It can be interpreted that Morgoth corrupted the eastern elves that refused to return to the undying lands when they first awoke into the original orcs/goblins. It is also assumed that they were bred with the men of the west by Morgoth to create their malformed look.

[@Whimsly]

Fuck these essays are so good. Every time a new one comes out I have to prepare myself a bit, because I can't watch these if I'm not ready to engage with them. A lot of video essays are content, in the way that they don't require a lot from the viewer, but yours are in another league. Interesting material offering a new perspective, eloquently written and well delivered. Peak 👍

[@BlakesPuppets]

You made me think about evil differently. I am excited for the part two.

[@hasieretxaparekareaga3993]

Lord of the Rings is, above all else, a reflection on the nature of good and evil, and this video is the first instance I've ever seen of someone daring to point out the connection with fascism aloud and say that the "corrupting nature of evil" is (for a different reason than you think) a very real political issue! EDIT: IDK if someone has pointed this out before, but in the books there's a moment in which an orc threatens another with ratting him out for something (idk what it was, probably sleeping while on watch duty or sth) and he tells him something to the effect of "I know what your number is, I'll report you to the captain, I'll give him your number", implying that orc workers have numbers. It could be a throwaway joke line, or it could be another indicator of fascist subtext with the orcs.

[@laisphinto6372]

To Link that to a political Thing is thinking too small the whole series revolves around a Ring that corrupts people, the Fall of numenor happened because of corruption IT IS more than Insert political Party you specifically dont Like, remember Most of the experience of Tolkien isnt politics but being in the trenches of ww1 and No soldier cared about some political nonsense but how they survive the next day and He likely SAW Friends and fellow soldiers and even himself, british Young men Turn into savage beasts die to the Environment of modern war

[@theresavalente6384]

You’re a very talented video essayist! I love your clear voice and pacinng. I’m excited to see where this goes. Orcs are a funny sticking place in Tolkien’s universe since mercy is a huge theme and these creatures aren’t afforded any

[@Sacredsnow2]

Excellent video on my favorite fantasy setting of all time. Strangely enough I've never thought of it as a war movie outside the masterful set pieces. It's always been my favorite for its representations of the virtue of mankind. Particularly, the masculinity of Aragorn, Theoden's arc of discovering what it means to be a good leader, and Sam's depiction of selfless servitude. Thanks for giving me another reason to watch LoTR again and love it some more. I'll point my wife's righteous anger of having to listen to LoTR for another 12 hours. It's also my nostalgia movie that I shared with my grandfather, so thanks a ton in advance for my incoming tears XD

[@serapekkala8238]

Love the photo of Mr. Colín. Hope he’s having/had a ball at Oktoberfest. ❤

[@cantadorlegendario1746]

Sooo good to see you back! I love your analyses and cheer your return with LotR. Back and forth, I recall your video essay on Hellraiser, an all-time classic - both the Cenobites and your analysis.

[@garretthohengarten2602]

Oh man I am just so damn happy to be a KZbin user at the same time that you are a KZbin creator. Every video from this channel ends up having an interesting influence on the way i interact with media, and I couldn't be more grateful! You are like a real life genius, I swear, so please keep up the beautiful work!!

[@Westeros91]

Brilliant as always! Orcs are so interesting to analyze because of Tolkien’s unfinished lore for them. Looking forward to part two!

[@guidotron82]

That was brilliant and upsetting in equal measure.

[@joostengelsman4755]

Love the take on prosthetics vs. GCI

[@henryglennon3864]

The end guitar music is really making me wish Amazon had spent a billion dollars making a spaghetti western remake of LotR, instead of what they did.

[@TheEndKing]

Glamdring would be a hell of a six shooter.

[@steps8140]

Now i need Legolas in a poncho + cowboyhat and gimbli in a goldseeker outfit

[@TheEndKing]

@@steps8140 Dwarves would love dynamite and mining carts.

[@AlusNakro]

There's an outstanding lack of symbolism nowadays in big productions/stories (specially in fantasy), like we didn't want to acknowledge that every monster demonstrates (etymology intended) a part of ourselves. Like we didn't want to find out ways of growing up just because we can't accept the fact that we live in a childish society derived from what Tolkien was warning us about. From what great artists still try to warn us. Fantasy is the abstraction we need to talk about reality (praise the sun), and one of the main differences in this field between children and adults is the ability (and compulsion) to talk about something meaningful in a well-hidden manner. Orcs are relatable for a reason, and it's necessary that people like you keep making videos like these so we don't forget, so we can mature. Great job!

[@Preda.Y]

holy shit HOLY SHIT YES! I love this! Actual, original, *new* scholarship on orcs. In the year 2024. What an honor to live to see this!

[@MeatSnax]

I really appreciate the recognition of the ~Guys In Costumes Jumping Around Like Weird Little Gremlins~ that really sell these movies, and I'm sure they really do too. Peter Jackson and the production team pulling together this many weird little freaks to fill out essentially an ACTUAL small army of orcs is something that I don't really think you can do any more, there just aren't that many stuntmen and background players willing to sit in makeup for 6 hours to bang a shield and run around like a monkey, only to probably get cut in the final edit. Your point about the performance aiding the sound design choices - I mean it's obvious now, but I never even considered that those were ADR sounds. I was fully convinced that the character just made that sound in camera somehow. I'm an enormous Tolkien fan - I know there are actual scholars and everything, but as far as a normal person goes, I know most of the history of Middle Earth in broad strokes. I also love the Ranklin & Bass and Bakshi animated movies, which I grew up on. That said, I think the LotR film trilogy is the crowning achievement of the entire franchise, the level of work, dedication, and all the right stars aligning is something that I don't think will ever happen in film again. I don't know that it's the BEST movie of all time, but I feel like it's the biggest success along with Lawrence of Arabia.

[@Zaacs772]

So good. Begging for a video about Gollum next.

[@gavinmcgwier44]

Been struggling with these creatures, and this topic. This video really helped. Thanks.

[@reevesT94]

Honestly, a f*cking horrifyingly well done piece.

[@Advancedgod]

Clicked on this before I realised it was you! Happy to see another video, always thought provoking. Thanks!

[@mluzv]

On top of every complimentary comment you've already received, the writing and pacing in this is insane. The smooth transition from the visual aspects of cgi and being ugly but expressive, to what it means to be turned evil... 👌

[@xenonglow4047]

i CAN'T EXPRESS HOW IN LOVE WITH THIS i AM

[@probablypragmatic6893]

I love that inclusion of Generation Kill at the end. What chap spoke about is right on the money; in previous wars you had to really drill into people to actually shoot their weapons at another human being (the book "On Killing", for as much irreparable damage as it's done to US Police force training, does cite some very interesting studies about previous wars and how unlikely it was for someone to even aim at an enemy directly much less actually shoot them). In current wars, or at least in the Marine Infantry, you have to talk people *out of* firing their weapons. I was Marine Infantry in '07 in Fallujah and some of the PTSD I have relates to not being in a position to "kill the enemy", the attitude of enthusiasm for wanting to "do your job as a Marine" was very real, very engraved into our identities. We talk a lot about how distant warfare is getting with things like drones being more akin to a video game vs looking someone in the eye as you stab them with a sharpened stick, but the truth is that we've come both ways. It's now easier to hit a button and kill a dozen people that may or may not be innocent civilians, but it's easier for front line fighters to kill too. You don't even need to dehumanize an enemy anymore, just point out that they're unfortunately on the wrong side and modern military training will handle the rest. I can't recommend the Generation Kill series enough, they really nail the Marine Corps I remember as well as the strange & violent hypocrisies inherent in "going off to a foreign country to liberate people by way of a bunch of stuff that actually kills people, using people who's sole responsibility is to be excellent at killing other people" Glad you're still posting Morbid, keep em coming.

[@nelsonmza9915]

You have a novelty look on things even when they’re extensively analyzed. Mariana, thanks for sharing it. ✌🏾

[@alecbarbour4366]

This is excellent. It also pairs very well with Jess of the Shire’s video on LOTR as a war allegory

[@boldbearings]

Zoo's magic voice.❤