Why Caesar's Legion Always Wins

[@theneocypher]

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[@psychokozel9916]

Honestly, one would think that there would be more groups like the Legion in a post-post-apocalypse.

[@theneocypher]

Completely agree!

[@psychokozel9916]

@@theneocypher After all, the biggest threats to the settled civilizations always came from the barbaric unifiers, be it merchants from the civilized societies or fur-cladded chieftains

[@kabbablabba4073]

there were. the legion absorbed them.

[@psychokozel9916]

@@kabbablabba4073 fair enough

[@M4teo.]

​@@psychokozel9916well, there are. There's slavers in fallout 3 and theres various radiant Quests in fallout 4 that involves kiddnaping. The pitt and nuka world raiders have slaves. Idk about fallout 1 & 2 since i haven't played them. Almost all raiders like to "decor" their territory with corpses, like the legion. Raiders live by stealing/intimidating settlements. Just like the legion. The legion survives by raiding and asimilating tribes, just like an average Raider group. Oh would you look at that? The legion Is just a glorified Raider group

[@GreaseShaman]

Incredible how easily the Legion can be defeated by 1 Lobotomized Anarcho-Courier armed with a golf club & Psycho. No one is safe.

[@theneocypher]

🤣

[@enclaveherewhyisntyourvide3089]

To be fair; So can every other faction.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

To be fair, could you do any better?

[@keighne7650]

The ego takes are always the funniest, for every game like this

[@kooolainebulger8117]

you do not win in a fight with a drugged up psyco mailman

[@Betrr]

it actually makes sense in terms of the available quests for each faction, on the legion side most of the quests are you trying to weaken the enemy to ensure an even more decisive victory. Whereas on the NCR side most of the quests are you trying to strengthen the NCR, because they're just not strong enough to fight off the legion at the beginning of the game.

[@theneocypher]

Exactly!

[@M4teo.]

Honestly, the NCR would clap the legions ass if they sent their whole weight on them. It's pretty well stated how they are getting little support because the mojave conflict Is not really popular back in California. But if they lost Hoover dam, the NCR would definitely get angry and crush the legion

[@NewVegasVigilante67]

Yeah, the NCR is desperately trying to reinforce their skeleton crews on a front that does not command their whole attention. You have to remember that Hoover Dam is a secondary objective for the entire NCR, while it's the entire and only goal for the whole of the Legion. Caesar is throwing too much at one thing, and the NCR is trying to win an exhibition match for a two outta three.

[@gratefulguy4130]

​@@M4teo.They have a beaurocratic nightmare back home, a loss at the dam would severely demoralize them, it's stated they need the electricity, and they would lose a great deal of manpower. Not to mention Vegas and it's surroundings provide an abundance of advanced tech. The Legion would also seize NCR stockpiles bolstering their own reserves. There are also many elements that are never fleshed out because the Legion was saved for last in development. Like for instance their terrifying cyber dogs out of Denver. Rex was supposed to be one of many. I'm guessing one problem was they were too OP. Another may have been scripting. Having a million Rexes running around chasing down anything they detect like Rex does would probably cause a lot of crashes. In universe though they do have hordes of them, and a wave of terrifying metal cyber dogs would break almost any line. Even seasoned veterans might go into a panic if they were hit with something like that.

[@trige000]

@@M4teo. Play the game, learn the lore, the NCR is not invincible.

[@sinisterisrandom8537]

Given the hierarchy of Caesar's legion, Lanius lacks the emotional ability to effectively rule as Caesar for a long period. However Vulpes Inculta would be able to serve incredibly well compared to his adversaries, he fought on the field, as an agent, understood the mindset of an average traveler, as well as understanding the reasoning for better weaponry, from lasers, mines, etc.

[@mado-wh4jv]

But there's a dialogue of Vulpes expressing his concerns that Lanius may disband the Frumentarie

[@thehivemind8576]

I don't think anybody could hold the legion together for more than a century after Caesar's death except for maybe the courier, mostly because the people follow Caesar alone

[@sinisterisrandom8537]

@@mado-wh4jvYes I am aware of the line which is what I was stating he wouldn't last as long as Caesar. He was suited as a Field General, not a strong leader. Something Vulpes understood well.

[@sinisterisrandom8537]

@@thehivemind8576Caesar's legion would be a council of generals. Lanius performed in the Field General, Vulpes is an excellent choice for being a Caesar one of the best choices on that. Other characters could perform it as well however he was one of the best for it. Since he thought methodically.

[@eno6712]

​@@mado-wh4jvVulpes could kill Lanius in his sleep and declare himself Caesar

[@Aldhardt]

NCR quests: " help us courier, your our only hope and you have to do everything because were so inept at the most basic stuff" Legion quests: "were already gonna fuck em up pretty easy, but hey if you want to kick the carcas before it rots, be our guest."

[@firipbhjkhdksjhdlfh2743]

Legion would no doubt have won in Vegas, but not due to NCR being weak as an entity, but rather because NCR's Mojave force is understaffed precisely because of supply problems. People like to picture NCR as some pacifist all-about-democracy faction, but truth is that if they had more men available in the mojave, then groups like Great Khans or Fiends would have been ruthlessly exterminated, as was done with raider tribes in California who were pushed all the way to Vegas. In this situation, the intake tunnels are Legion's only ace, and any push in the open fields against House's robots, Boomers or Brotherhood would have been extrmely costly and occupation would likely result in loss of key positions in the east. That all without questioning Legion's ability to stay united after Caesar dies.

[@theneocypher]

All excellent points!

[@cowbeanboi412]

The legion wins in New Vegas because the NCR doesn't care. They've shown they're capable of putting a force in the Mojave. But they're barely fielding a force in the Mojave because of over confidence, they're to assured of themselves So yes legion wins in NV but they're definitely not knocking the NCR out, of anything they just piss off the bear

[@James-ne3lc]

The NCR literally doesn't care. Hanlon states they lose 1,000 soldiers each year just trying to hold the Mojave. It seems they only care about having a presence in the area to have access to the Strip instead of actually securing it.

[@GateCaptain]

I think a lot of people overlook Hilderns dialogue. The NCR as it stands is going to face food shortages and famines within 10 years, if they lose the dam they lose a significant source of clean water and energy. This will cut down their agricultural output and compound the issue; sure the legion might not survive Caesars death (unless Lanius or the Courier become the legitimate heir), but the NCR will also face an economic and social crisis within the next decade at most if they lose.

[@thehivemind8576]

⁠​⁠@@GateCaptainidk about that, for one thing the greatest unifier is a common enemy , and the legion would become that common enemy if they managed to conquer the Mojave, and while losing it would suck, it wouldn't kill them, at the same time I wouldn't trust the famine thing automatically, the only thing hinting towards that are the words of 1 asshole scientist who lies to you

[@ChuckMcGill_69]

I love how people say the legion doesn’t use modern tech while they were literally buying energy weapons from the van graffs.

[@SCAR16L]

Small scale, basically like SpecOps forces. The majority of legion goons you encounter use melee weapons. If it wasn't for plot armor, the legion wouldn't be much of a threat to an organized military like the NCR. I just wish that both the Legion and NCR could not just lose, but be absolutely crushed. They both suck.

[@RandomNoNamePT]

Still, only the higher ups of the army get actual weapons (such as Assasins, Vulpes' group and Centurions) Furthermore, most Legion soldiers only use guns they have looted in real time from winning an encounter against other NPCs which is highly unlikely given their intentionally poor weaponry, only the big fish get the guns, let alone the energy weapons.

[@internetbodhi1009]

​@@RandomNoNamePT which is the way it should be. You can absolutely "win" if you have 20 idiots with baseball bats charging one or two NCR troops. But the guns go to the higher ups. You wouldn't want newly absorbed tribes getting guns....

[@vulpesinculta3238]

@@SCAR16L "The majority of legion goons you encounter use melee weapons." That's actually a good strategy in the long term. Caesar dresses it up as it being heroic and visceral, more manly, that sort of thing. However, there's something bigger happening. The Legion have a constant influx of subjugated tribal warriors. They're not lacking for manpower, so they can afford to separate the wheat from the chaff by sending them out underequipped and seeing how well they handle that. If nine out of ten Legion recruits die trying to fight NCR patrols, then the remaining one-tenths are practically Lucius/Lanius/Vulpes tier. They have to be either very strong, very smart, or both to survive their first few raids into NCR territory. So the ones who come back? They're going to be as good as NCR rangers.

[@realdaggerman105]

@@vulpesinculta3238 The Legion are rapidly running out of possible conscripts though. They’re throwing away plenty of potentially skilled future soldiers for often minimal gain. Sure, most of the soldiers that get killed from this melee-centric martial style weren’t going to be great, but some definitely will be. And there’s no guarantee the poor soldiers aren’t the lucky survivors, either. They are burning manpower and their future leadership.

[@rosliamirul9975]

I love how it has been years since the release of Fallout New Vegas. But it is still been discussed till today just shows how well written and good it was

[@ColonelMetus]

I haven't pooped

[@Alex-yf4zi]

Granted that goes for alot of games

[@johnclay2716]

Not really, people just have nothing better to do and the Fallout fanbase is obsessive The same videos have been made over and over and over again all with the same points

[@SumgoodAsszaza]

@@johnclay2716well fallout is a genre like the metro games, stalker, etc but with rpg elements and story which make it fun. but i play it for the bugs and glitches, the music slaps ngl but other than that fallout 3 is peak. fnv has the better music imo

[@miguelmont.1111]

You know how a game is an all-time classic? Its been almost 14 years since it realeased and is still talk about the factions within it, and i'm willing to bet it would still be in another 16 years from now on

[@kylestallings9684]

New Vegas is older now than Fallout 1 was when NV released!

[@James-ne3lc]

You forgot to mention the lone Khan terrorizing the refugee camp which further demoralizes the NCR. The NCR just doesn't have anything going in their favor.

[@SCAR16L]

Aside from an industrial base, a logistics system, and, once the war progresses farther west, defense of their homes and families, rather than just wanting to kill, rob, enslave, etc? Both the Legion and NCR suck, and both deserve to be destroyed, but the NCR has the advantage in every category except melee combat. Damn it feels dirty to say anything in defense of the NCR.

[@kingofhearts3185]

Very well done, loved the opening. Actually gave me chills. I think the difference between the factions is best summarized by their quests. The legion have you assist ongoing, successful missions like captain Curtis. By contrast the ncr need you to get them food that won't make people sick and train soldiers. Nevermind their complete operational failures.

[@theneocypher]

Thank you so much! I am so glad that my intro gave you chills! That is what I was going for 😁

[@JoaoVictor-rg5ix]

​@@theneocypherLoved how you layered their voices. It sold the idea that they were legion. They were One.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

​@@theneocypheraw yeah. Intro went unbelievably hard.

[@thebigidea9659]

I don't think it really sunk in just how screwed the ncr were until my last playthrough. I was doing a house aligned playthrough and I was stunned by all the tactics and moves the legion had made. Without the courier they would've dominated the ncr and the mojave

[@redlight3932]

its written that way otherwise it wouldn't be a fair fight and noone would want to play

[@misanthropicservitorofmars2116]

@@redlight3932it’s written as a tale of a states rise, height, and fall. In New Vegas. The NCR was falling apart. The Legion is gunna fall apart once that tumor takes out Caesar.

[@EhOhDino]

I said this many of months ago, Please don't stop creating content like I did over 11 years ago. Progression is slow but your content is amazing and you'll soon gain the recognition you deserve!

[@theneocypher]

Thank you so much! Don’t worry, I’m in this for the long haul 😉

[@therealamon]

Life usually gets content creation and creativity to fleet from us with jobs and family and personal drama always take care of yourself when making videos regularly to keep them going dont lost that spark

[@fiendish9474]

Considering in gameplay the amount of Legion inflitration the player can see is limited to Col Hsu in Camp McCarran, would've been pretty cool if after reaching a high enough reputation you can get infiltration quests to sabotage NCR locations like camp golf, forlorn hope, or the numerous amount of ranger stations and NCR emplacements throughout the map

[@CosmicFreedoms]

There is a Mission from Dead Sea to clear out Forlorn Hope prior to the endgame. But he gets pissy if you do it because he wanted them there, to continue losing morale and draining resources.

[@dickonmanwoody7599]

I'd recommend Legion Quests expanded mod.

[@RandomNoNamePT]

@@CosmicFreedoms He doesn't get mad, he just laments he can't psychologically weaken them anymore, and even tells Caesar Forlorn Hope is free to take.

[@huntclanhunt9697]

The legion would never be able to invade California proper. Think about it: It's repeatedly stated that the NCR's main forces are in the north and down in Baja, not in the Mojave, which is seen as a backwater post. The NCR managed to halt the legion, who took forever to recover from the innitial setback due to logistical issues. Now stretch those supply lines through the mountains of California, and closer to the NCR homeland, and you'll see the main army of the NCR slamming into them on home turf with much shorter logistical lines. Also, long term, the Legion isn't sustainable. They will constantly have to worry about slave revolts (not unlike Sparta with the Helots) and the problem of being spread across an extremely large area. Could they take the Mojave? Probably. Could they take California? Not a chance.

[@uhhyeacoolman2786]

the explosive collars exist because of the chance slave revolts. If you are constantly worried about your head getting propelled into the sun by C4, I don't think the concept of a revolt is too handsome

[@B463L]

Whenever Sallow or "Lanius" mouth off about conquering California I think it's hilarious. My brother in Atom, no, that's how you discover that you're Hannibal and the OTHER guy is Scipio. You run an army of tribals with no connection to the lands you conquer except the ones you've severed, you've been at this for only one generation. Sit down

[@OXY187]

They don't have to invade California. NCR will fall apart after the loss of Hoover Dam and the Mojave. The economy will sink rapidly. In the game, NCR is already desperate economically. And losing the war will cause more trouble in California. You are gonna have New Reno, Arroyo, the Hub, Vault City and other big cities going against the state and declaring independence, causing total civil war within the NCR main lands. Caesar, If he survives, will send in the Frumentarii to aid the revolting nations and fasten the progress of NCR's downfall. When NCR falls apart, they will move in and capture every state one by one. The Legion is the black hole. It is unstoppable. It doesn't end with Caesar. Someone will always takeover. "They will constantly have to worry about slave revolts." No, not really. You see, everyone in the Legion is a slave and they are willingly following Caesar. He has thousands of men at his disposal, ready to die for him. The punishments are far worse than any possible death. No one is going to revolt. It is a Hollywood theme.

[@Scowleasy]

Add regular revolts into the mix as well. Caesar’s whole “obliterate the past identity” thing isn’t even working. Half the legion people you can talk to still have their old culture and identify with it.

[@thoughtfuldoomguy]

While I agree that the courier’s absence would mean a straight forward battle between the NCR and Legion results in a Legion victory, I think it’s very likely that Mr. House continues to pursue the platinum chip in the weeks leading up to the battle through more hired help, which would sway the battle in the NCRs favor if successful. The real issue however is the future of the Legion. Without Courier intervention, Caesar does not have the tumor removed in time, it is heavily implied that he’s been ignoring it too long and has been unable to get the autodoc back up and running. Caesar’s death, as House and Joshua Graham predict, will mean the fall of the Legion through in fighting at the top, and Lanius’s ineffectiveness as a leader outside of combat. So while I do think the Legion wins assuming House is not successful, even if they do they’re doomed and would likely fracture and lose the Mojave back to the NCR shortly thereafter.

[@battercake5120]

Most of the non-Legion leaders understand this. They know that Caesar is Legion, and that without him, it doesn't matter that they win, since it's going to crumble anyway.

[@mado-wh4jv]

But in a same fashion, Caesar would not give up looking for the autodoc pieces, he just have to pull Vulpes and in a week they would have 5 enslaved docs or a stolen autodoc

[@thoughtfuldoomguy]

@@mado-wh4jv the implication when he speaks with the Courier about it is that he's ignoring it and isn't even sure what is causing the problem specifically, and so while it's possible he does that and he is saved, what we get from Caesar seems to support that he might have tried to appear competent into it was too late.

[@mado-wh4jv]

@@thoughtfuldoomguy He mentioned that he has sent scout parties to vaults but they did not return, so he IS doing something, bit just like with Graham assassins, he doesn't make it public.

[@thoughtfuldoomguy]

@@mado-wh4jv oh no definitely, like he has the auto-doc for a reason, and it’s certainly open for interpretation, I just got the sense from the symptoms he was trying to mask that perhaps he wasn’t putting enough emphasis on the potential neurological damage that was taking place. Not to mention with the Hoover Dam battle looming, much more of his resources and attention are likely in that. But yeah it’s really just how I saw the dialogue, certainly open to interpretation/speculation.

[@RileyEdges]

Their intelligence agency was insane, their ability to infiltrate was on par with the Institute.

[@101matthias]

But there is one important addition: While the legion as the generic bad guy in FNV is set up to win the battle for Hoover Dam without the help of an altruistic good player (Because that's how storytelling goes.) they still can't win the war against the NCR. The legion has virtually all of its army stationed at the dam but still struggels to defeat not the NCR army but a token garrison carefully sabotaged by House. It's kind of like when you join Ulfric in Skyrim, you don't actually beat the legion, you beat Tullius and his peasant militia whose job it is to stop the rebellion before the ACTUAL army has to intervene. Hearts of Iron 4 mod Old World Blues represents this quiet well.

[@jerm70]

The NCR isn't sending its troops into the Mojave. It really can't do that as there is only one passage to California. If the Legion defeats the NCR forces at the Dam and Camp Golf the NCR has no ways to retaliate and the Legion can use the fortifications made by the NCR to defend themselves. Especially when the NCR has left so much equipment and Gun Runners leave an entire production factory. So even if NCR made a suicidal charge through the passage it would result in defeat for NCR.

[@nakota8473]

The dam is also a perfect chokeppoint for the NCR to hold with open siightlines and only one mode of entry, in an open field battle nothing short of the rangers can match the tactical genius of caesar.

[@redlight3932]

@@jerm70 nah the hills along the mojave outpost would just become the new barrier along with the northern passage above jacobstown wym the Ncr would literally erase the legion if they even cared about the damn they want the strip

[@AlyssMa7rin]

The Legion does not have its full strength at the Dam. Remember that Caesar controls (at least) the lands west of Texas and East of the Mojave. He has hundreds of thousands, if not millions of square miles of land to hold. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Caesar could raise dozens of 'Legions', but he chooses to travel in a single war host as its leader.

[@davis3138]

i like caesar and even though people say the legion is bad because they will fall apart if caesar dies, it's not really an argument because that is the case for 3 out of the 4 factions so he is still awesome in my books

[@theneocypher]

People forget that the Legion is more than Caesar

[@lilqwertyy8461]

Caesar built his empire ON his name, it's litteraly called caesar's legion. So yes his generals including vulpes and Lanius (and other generals not in the game) will tear the legion apart. No other faction has this problem, mister house is immortal at this point, the NCR is a democracy so they arnt going to go into a civil war because their leader died, and i assume the last faction is the brotherhood, who will also just elect a new elder. all of this is possible because they didn't build their factions on one, very mortal, person

[@W0KeIzEvil]

​@lilqwertyy8461 the Legion was built on a idea. & ideas are bulletproof

[@warlordsam]

​@@lilqwertyy8461in the game they literally state there is a hierarchy ready to take charge if Caesar dies.

[@M4teo.]

​@@warlordsamthat's not the point. Yeah theres a sucessor. But that does not mean that the legion Will follow this sucessor as how they did with caesar. If the sucessor is Lanius, the legión Will fall quickly. As he Is a bloodthirsty monster that only wants war. Every single legionaire yells "true to caesar!" The legión Is built arround HIM

[@grekusPotatus]

Also to add to all of that supposing that Benny killed the courier it likely that the NCR will be on the brink of collapse due to Ulysses launching a nuke against them.

[@redlight3932]

dlc isnt canon without the courier otherwise all of America would have been killed by bigMT

[@grekusPotatus]

@@redlight3932 why isn't it? I don't have any source to confirm this. However, as far as the big MT is concerned Morbius is keeping the others at bay. The only problems would be the tunnelers and the nukes.

[@B463L]

Ulysses only launches nukes because he's pissed at the Courier. No Courier = no nukes

[@kenn4eyes]

@@B463L Wrong. Ulysses already learned the lesson(albeit, the wrong one) due to the Divide's destruction. The lesson being individuals can create and break nations. He doesnt launch the nukes because hes pissed but to showcase what he learned from the courier at the Divide. That Ulysses, alone, can kill the NCR as a nation with the Divide's nukes. The courier being called out to the Divide was due to him learning that the Mojave didnt kill the courier like he predicted and wanted to kill two birds with one stone. Get the courier to come with ED-E to activate the nukes AND to kill the courier either through the Divide's dangers or himself.

[@CaesarSonOfMars]

Veni Vidi Vici

[@theneocypher]

In Hoc Signo Taurus Vinces

[@UnhingedJessie]

Legion bois are just built different. The NCR requires star wars levels of plot armor.

[@theneocypher]

Ave!

[@mrgreen6980]

@@theneocypher Funny for someone in automatic rifle range. (Still wish the Legion had more lore for them)

[@theneocypher]

😂

[@harrycallahan5018]

How does the NCR have plot armor,when the legion largely uses machetes? Just look at historical precedent like the zulus. Before you say the legion has guns, the Zulus also had guns too.

[@UnhingedJessie]

@@harrycallahan5018 Because they're the designated good guys with all the content. Siding with the legion is like pushing against the whole game.

[@ChristianDall-p2j]

The ncr is completly reliant on the courier, both moraly, And miltarily.

[@bonerbreath6747]

The NCR has been reliant on the player character for 2 games not including new Vegas

[@Thagomizer]

And the Legion isn't?

[@bonerbreath6747]

@@Thagomizer without courier intervention the Legion wins the second battle for Hoover dam they don't need you lol

[@MrJefferson07]

@@Thagomizer The Legion has Lanius, just like the Enclave had Horrigan, they're both Characters that does not need in anyway a Main Character to succeed whatever they are planning. Those two characters are playing MAJOR roles in changing the Wasteland, because they are VERY similar to Main Characters, only difference is that they don't make choices and use stimpacks.

[@PerfectAlibi1]

@@bonerbreath6747 Yeah, if it wasn't for the Vault dweller, Shady Sands would've been wiped out by the Great Khans in the first game! XD

[@Morec0]

I fully believe that people underestimate Lanius. He absolutely is a brute to the core, but he's not stupid and not oblivious. When you confront him with the knowledge he'll lose momentum after the Dam he not only acknowledges what you say as true but does so by comparing it to a previous event where, bssed on how he says it, he was already starting to question the methods that almost cost them that battle. That he was already thinking about that tells me all it would have taken for him to reach that conclusion would be a repeat of the event, after which he'd stop and wonder about it. When he secceeds Caesar, and I believe he would after a period of shock and doubt he would, I think he would become exactly what the Legion needs to advance. While he doesn't have the charisma to hold the Legion together like Caesar had, he has iron fisted will and terror. His rule would be a tyranny, but it would be of a kind that would turn the Legion into a more self-sufficient nation - ironically a factor which Caesar ignored in pursuit of his own glory. In fact, such tyrannical control might even be enough to prevent or mitigate the infighting of the Legion post conquest of the NCR (though I don't think they'd succeed at that). With that accomplished, there's no telling how much more powerful they would have become. Yes, the Legion likely would have failed in claiming the NCR, but they would have emerged a greater power for it. Caesar is actually the Legion's Achilles heel in the end.

[@redlight3932]

hes a moron a mailman tells him that hes not going to win because hes underprepared and he gives up because hes right

[@CommissarTommy22]

Should be noted that without courier intervention Caesar will die from a brain tumor that is already affecting his ability to command the legion, a legion that follows him but not his ideals not to mention the depletion of all it's holdings east of the Colorado. So yes Caesar's Legion will almost assuredly take Hoover Dam and Vegas but will be a pyrrhic victory in the long term.

[@fullmetalpleb]

Wouldn't Ulysses nuke the NCR in that case?

[@CommissarTommy22]

@@fullmetalpleb Ulysses intends to use the nukes to irradiate the stretch of the I-15 that connects the California to the Mojave, effectively trapping the NCR there without hope of reinforcements or escape. The knock on effect being the Legion cannot invade the NCR via the I-15 which is the most direct rout, slowing them down long enough for Caesar to drop dead or some cascade of events to fracture the Legion.

[@fullmetalpleb]

@@CommissarTommy22 I feel like that would give the legion enough time to become a prosperous nation.

[@CommissarTommy22]

@@fullmetalpleb Give them time to deplete the Mojave of all it's worth perhaps. Caesar's Legion is the most successful raider faction in the Wasteland but that's just what they are, they know only how to take not build or grow and so they always need enemies to conquer. Trapped behind the irradiated I-15 The legion will be stalled once again only this time without an opponent to fight and without that the Legion will crumble.

[@fullmetalpleb]

@CommissarTommy22 That's the white legs. The Legion has a strong slave economy and would have plenty of farm land after conquering the Mojave. Not to mention all of Utah and Zion canyon as they easily crush the white legs as is shown in the ending slide when you kill Joshua Graham.

[@gamerthehoopa]

Even if Caesar wins the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam, without Courier intervention, he'd die. And Lanius would be in charge of the Legion. As Graham said, nobody can rule the Legion after Caesar. It will turn on itself and die. The NCR doesn't have to win Hoover Dam, they just have to survive long enough for the Legion to implode.

[@Moverboy]

No he wouldn't. peeps love to have this idea that because the courier does something that it means they're the only one who could've done it and that the result is a failure otherwise. you can look at president Kimball's own assassination which is a quest a legion courier can do but still happens no matter what route the courier go, Kimball is killed without a NCR courier and Yes Man will even mention it happened. on the other hand, No mention of Caesar being dead ever happens in other playthroughs if the courier doesn't go and kill him themselves. Caesar isn't an idiot, peeps just like to misinterpret his beliefs and how resourceful he's willing to be.

[@gamerthehoopa]

@@Moverboy Caesar's not an idiot, but he's 100% toast without the Courier. He has a brain tumor, and the only place with the parts for his Auto Doc is Vault 34. He would never let a Legionnaire visit there for the same reason he would never let them in the Securitron bunker. Plus, he was keeping his condition a secret. And nobody in the Legion has proper medical training and most likely wouldn't be able to diagnosis the tumor. Caesar has intentionally stopped his people from getting proper modern medical knowledge, and without that, he's dead. Sure, Kimball would die, but he'd just be replaced in another election. If Caesar dies, his Legion implodes on itself.

[@basedchicana1776]

The NCR can't win the second battle in the first place without the Courier themselves, what mental hurdles are you trying to jump through, because there's no point The Legion doesn't need the courier to carry the entire faction, unlike the NCR since the beginning of that faction's quest line

[@onion599]

@@Moverboy So something will happen that will save Caesar if the courier doesn't exist to help him, but the NCR won't do anything to save themselves if the courier doesn't exist to help them?

[@karamanid]

@@onion599 NCR cant do anything, Caesar literally knows the location of the Auto Doc part he needs, he can acquire it after conquering New Vegas.

[@legionary6304]

Ave True to Caesar ⚔🐂

[@theneocypher]

Ave!

[@blairbutler4940]

Ave

[@andrewrossell3782]

That settled it, time for another playthrough of New Vegas

[@theneocypher]

💪🏻

[@ZackarySchejbalCODBO2RGM2]

@@theneocypher same. except divide upon the legion.

[@Holder_place]

"You're too late, skirt boy! my personal army of unicycle robots have MISSILES!"

[@jacksavadge4210]

I got a little Caesars ad on this video

[@theneocypher]

Pizza pizza 🍕

[@jimwell5608]

Idk, but in my experience, in Vegas... "The House Always Wins". ♠️

[@theneocypher]

That’s how I lost all of my caps.. 🥹

[@KaptifLaDistillerie]

My headcanon ending for New Vegas is definitely House victory. The courier is a professional that gets the job done no matter what (which we learn because of Ulysses), so I believe the courier would deliver the platinum chip to House

[@daemonium3278]

@@KaptifLaDistillerie If the courier had not appeared in the Mojave, it would have been Ulisses who would have done the job of delivering the platinum chip and House would not have taken long to convince him to take his side.

[@Banana-Boi]

​@@KaptifLaDistillerieDelivering it is one thing but siding with house is another.

[@KaptifLaDistillerie]

@@Banana-Boi indeed. But my head canon is that the courrier gets the chip to House and then goes on to live his life doing side quests. The courrier was a blank slate for the player up until the Lonesome Road DLC which gave some sort of a background to the courrier, and solely based on this DLC i'm sure that's what would happen. However it doesn't solve the NCR/Legion situation. House can easily defend Vegas against both with his upgraded securitrons, but the Legion would surely roll over the NCR if nothing is done. To keep the status quo, the courrier would have to launch a nuke on both faction at the end of the Lonesome Road DLC to deny them access to the mojave. There is a great take on this in the Old World Blues mod for Hearts Of Iron 4. We might get some info in the upcoming Fallout TV show, at least I hope. They said the show is set 219 years after the bombs fell, so 2296, andi t's in Los Angeles, and we know that the NCR is still around. So we might get some closure on what actually happened in NV, I just hope they make the right choices, but I'm not overly optimistic...

[@anamericangrizzlybear8315]

I'll never forget my first reaction to going to Ranger station charlie, chatting with the rangers, leaving and then one day coming back to find them all slaughtered and the place booby trapped When I first arrived to the ranger station I was ignorant to the greater conflict at hand, after coming back and knowing so much more about how the Legion opperates and how they've got the NCR in a grip of fear it was crazy seeing a place I'd previously visited turned into a graveyard by the Legion

[@dapperbunch5029]

The NCR is doomed ether way the battle goes. They can’t take advantage of a victory and likely would struggle to retreat in a Legion victory. The NCR is also economically tied to the battle. If they lose they will need to conscript more soldiers and print more money. The Legion does not have to kill the NCR, inflation will do it just as fine.

[@theneocypher]

Absolutely

[@W0KeIzEvil]

Just like modern day USA. printing itself into oblivion.

[@M4teo.]

Not much different from the legion to be fair. If they win and caesar survives, he will -try- to take...California?? The NCR didn't really supply and help the forces at the mojave because the war wasn't that popular among Californian citizens and politicians. But if they lost, and caesar went to their doorstep, doesn' matter how badass or cool the legion Is, theres nothing they can do against the full NCR army. If the NCR has a population of 700000, they surely have a massive army.

[@dapperbunch5029]

@@M4teo. Good point, but the NCR was committed to the Mojave Campaign. 2 week training period for soldiers and an inflation economy to keep the campaign alive comes to mind. I am not saying they were fully committed but I am saying that they would have to overextend themselves to the point that something is going to collapse. The NCR is strong but Caesar has prepped his legion far too much in advance. This isn’t 1941 Germany invading the Soviet Union. This is 1940 Germany invading France. The NCR is so torn apart by political infighting and economic hardship not mentioning culture issues with annexing all of California in 100 years or the ever present Brotherhood threat. The NCR is just in a really, really bad place. One last thing everyone points out Legion falling back into tribes but no one mentions NCR could do the same thing.

[@johannhawk8471]

@@dapperbunch5029 i find this "this isn't 1941" mention funny since i've seen a couple of TTRPG playtest campaigns set in the same timeline handle such an invasion exactly like that with the Necropolis+Boneyards being the equivalent of stalingrad. First campaign is the players being a sniper team that ends up killing the legion Courier in the Necropolis and the 2nd playtest campaign being a tank+infantry campaign with the players manning a biodiesel powered tank near the boneyards. The tank team only starts out with solid shot shells since the guys they replaced spent all the good APDS shells on the first wave of shitty bulldozers the legion used as improvised tanks. i forget what TTRPG system the first campaign was playtesting but the 2nd one was running "Chariots of steel" which is a few editing passes away from being ready to be released.

[@Snow-Foot]

If Hanlon had his way Hoover dam would have been left unmanned and set up with ambush and recon points all over it. Making it an enticing route for the legion to walk right through. Into ambushes and prepared defenses. Hanlon definitely seems to favor more elastic and reactive defense.

[@chesterstevens8870]

The Legion always wins because we grind while NCR sleeps. Stay fit, Amicus.

[@rulingmoss5599]

You definitely aint fit

[@OXY187]

@@rulingmoss5599 he is fit, I am fit. You are either fat or skinny. Easy prey.

[@OXY187]

@@rulingmoss5599 Typical NCR dog.

[@НатанКанава]

Monkeys with melee weapons cannot defeat regular army with military factories and mass production of fire arms)

[@chesterstevens8870]

@@НатанКанава Medium and high-level Legion troops have better guns than all the NCR except ranger vets. I'll take 12.7mm SMG's, assault carbines, thermic lances and super sledges over all the service rifles and combat knives in the world.

[@reporterid]

We can take what is said by the Courier during the (verbal) fight against Lanius and rework it a little for the case where the Courier would have died at Goodsprings. The Legion will win at Hoover Dam but holding the Mojave will prove (almost) impossible because: 1- Caesar will soon die and he's currently the only one that knows how to build and run a nation/kingdom 2- New Vegas might be in chaos during the battle because of the Omertas but I don't think Mr House will lose control of it

[@spearshake4771]

I always felt like the east coast fallout lore was wasted on Bethesda. There were so many potentially cool factions that Bethesda could have created outside of the minutemen and generic raider groups. I felt like the minutemen were a bit primitive given the amount of time that had passed since the bombs fell. By this time the West Coast already has a structured government with its own currency, laws and relative law and order within its own borders. Yet in comparison the east coast still consisted of many fractured and nameless generic raider tribes and one faction who mainly consist of ragtag militias.

[@MrDonut-mb6ms]

by my understanding the minutemen kind of made sense with the “lore” of the previous commonwealth government. but it rlly is not communicated well, its like the most disappointing kind of writing where it’s sooooo close to be going good

[@duncanharrell5009]

Bethesda fell for the trap Sawyer was veering into: Sawyer HATED the post-post apocalyptic vibe F2 and NV were veering into, hence Mr Bear Bull Bear Bull deciding to nuke both NCR and Legion. Sadly, Bethesda wasted the East Coast by doing just that, not allowing any actual factions and governments to form and still relying on bottle caps for currency instead of, ya know, actual money like NCR dollars or Legion coins.

[@ju6599]

Isn't that because the Institute killed off any attempts to form a proper government?

[@MrJefferson07]

@@ju6599 Yeah, it's even said in Fallout 3, the Commonwealth is under a "strict" underlying command by the Institute, after the first "group" took over, they've tried reaching out to them and it ended not well as just like the Railroad, they had ideals they wanted to force on them, so the Institute took them all down, and burned all the others wannabe militia to keep control of the situation. But as you see during F4, time has done them dirty, and they're losing a lot of people.

[@danielragsdale9849]

Great video. Never was a fan of the Legion, but the objective proof is undeniable the NCR wouldn’t stop them a second time. Not with people like Oliver and arguably Cassandra Moore quashing the good sense of anyone who could make a difference which I think does the most damage.

[@Nakurye]

great video, but I just wanted to mention that regarding nipton, in the video, its not given enough analysis as it sounds like the legion just walked in and took it. a lot happened and the "mayor" basically tried to trade with legion, he handed them the town for free. it may sound insignificant but the way everything was setup, anyone couldve taken nipton, if anything going more indepth about nipton shows that the legion doesnt always resort to just raiding parties and they can and do, work in the background aswell

[@thatoneguy8146]

Even over ten years later this games is still talked about. God I love this game

[@HumbleHuddle]

Marcus from Jacobstown: "Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he's gone, it'll crumble.

[@daemonium3278]

It's true, but that doesn't change the fact that without the courier's intervention he would still have won; whether his empire collapses in the long term is another matter.

[@HumbleHuddle]

@@daemonium3278 without the courier the legion might take the dam (2nd attempt), Caesar has couple of years then dies from the brain tumor along with the legion. The NCR would roll over the remnants and retake the dam/territory. With an intelligence level at 4 Caesar did not build a legion for longevity merely for conquest. Victim of its own success.

[@frazza5503]

Marcus remembers how the Unity fell after the master died, he knows it will happen to the legion the same way.

[@MrJefferson07]

@@frazza5503 Big difference is, the Master was actually alone in his fight, Caesar is not.

[@Destroyer_V0]

@@MrJefferson07 So having an army built from people who have had their cultural identity taken from them, but not completely, is a good idea then? creating a society that is built around impressing one man, doesn't have infighting? Caeser has set up his legion so that it will implode once he dies. From it's tribal members returning to their original homes, to infighting between influential members not being able to decide how best to do the will of caeser with him dead and gone...

[@inteus64]

I would say Ulysses kills them both, but, the courier is he one that freed ED-E, so that doesn't happen, Elijah doesn't get his toys, the think tank stays looped, and the white legs lose a war of attrition

[@christopheralben7618]

I always figured the Legion could take the dam and press on to take Vegas, but always wondered how long it would last once Caesar died and the Legion was stuck with governing the Mojave with all the same problems the NCR had. It'd be interesting to see if a sequel to NV took place in a now-struggling Legion as the NCR looked to redeem itself. Don't think there could ever be as good of a set up or world building as there is in this game ever again though to be frank.

[@keysersoze9395]

It's pretty easy debate, when conquering Mojave is point of honor for ceasar agter losing the first battle. He's afraid of losing his authority after second fatal loss and retrieve. So he's putting his best man and resources to obtain Mojave and move on, glorified by his people. Whereas for the NCR securing Mojave is not even a secondary target and they lack resources and people for the job. Morale is also worse than on the legion's side. Combine that with poor (mostly due to hopeless situation) leadership and lack of diplomatic approach (i feel like most of the commanders want to destroy other factions by courier's hands just to not lose more people, but somehow they're not even trying to make alliances). Great video!

[@crusader2112]

Love your work. Ave Amicus. Happy Thanksgiving.

[@theneocypher]

Thank you! Ave!!

[@millerrepin4452]

If there was no courier it's possible that Elijah could have accessed the sierra madre getting access to the gas technology and hologram guards that can't be harmed. He could have single handedly taken on both factions in a way that the courier couldn't. Don't forget about the tunnlers and that they supposedly will attack the Mojave.

[@scarface43Gaming]

The vibe I always got is that the Legion would definitely win against the NCR if there was no courier.

[@joshuabryk4316]

NCR commanders admit that several times. I never understood why people said the legion can’t win even without the courier

[@whatisahandle_69]

Benny would win 🤷‍♂️

[@AlyssMa7rin]

​@@whatisahandle_69 Nah, he wouldn't have been able to get to the Securitrons in the Legion camp, and as such would be overwhelmed since he probably has at most 200 securitrons in Vegas proper.

[@MrJefferson07]

@@AlyssMa7rin Even in their new "upgrades" Securitrons can barely keep up against Legion hit squad, so yeah, they ain't passing Lanius.

[@Randomusername56782]

Tactically? Yeah they would.. strategically? Yeah noooooooooooo... Don't believe me? Ask the zulus how that went when they went up against the British? Or.. Ask the samuari how that went when they went up against the IJA.

[@thebatmane2220]

The legion is one of the most fascinating organizations I’ve ever encountered in a video game, I watch hours of videos just trying to learn more and more about them.

[@TheHatbowler]

Ceasar has a brain tumor and will die months after the games ending. They will collapse, willing or not.

[@Zerospacedude]

“You’ve awoken the hive”

[@colemclean1676]

I don't know if it's a KZbin recommendation thing. Or it's just me. But I am seeing more new Vegas videos from people.

[@wesss9353]

Can you think of a better game?

[@theneocypher]

Well if its content you are into, I have a whole page! 😁

[@cardinalbubxiii803]

The hubris to think football pad wearing Roman soldier LARPing bois can withstand the scathing brunt of a walking PTSD Mass Casualty Event known as the ‘Courier’ is beyond comprehension. They’re more anger and psycho than sentience at this point.

[@robotzebra208]

What mod are you using for the legion armor? Its looks great

[@theneocypher]

We are Legion by Dragbody!

[@Kai-1138]

My ass in remnant’s power armor wielding a anti-material rifle:

[@SillyChobo]

What armor mods are you using in this video? Cool vid btw, nice to find someone who's a fan of the legion (I like all factions).

[@theneocypher]

Thank you! The mod is We Are Legion by Dragbody

[@SillyChobo]

@theneocypher Thank you! Sorry for wasting your time, I managed to find it. For anyone wondering about the NCR overhaul, I believe it is dragbody's old NCR Trooper Overhaul, which is still on the nexus (his newer overhaul and other mods such as We Are Legion are on GUNetwork). Thanks again.

[@SillyChobo]

I know no one really cares but I'm making my own mod that edits the records of legionnaire NPCs. Problem is is I can't figure out how to make it script-based (not real scripting but with the use of JIP and JohnnyGuitar, etc). I'm trying to give the upper ranks of the Legion better guns, higher combat confidence levels (never flee) and speed modifiers where there aren't any. It seems to work fine but if I could make it script based it would ensure much more compatibility with other mods that edit the same records such as NPC face overhauls. If anyone has any idea on how to do this, please let me know!

[@johnkongsaisy7014]

​@SillyChobo Sounds Cool! If possible maybe make armors that show legion auxiliaries just like irl

[@fireraid9173]

The only issue though is their complete dependence on caesar. He is inevitably going to die from his tumor and without the courier to find a way to save his life, the legion will fall apart at the seams even with their legate in charge. So they may win the battle of hoover dam, but with the courier in a ditch the legion is doomed no matter what happens.

[@bonehed1]

Caesar is actually fully aware of this, and taking Vegas is part of his plan to ensure that the Legion outlives him. The Legion is currently a strictly military force, and Caesar wants to take New Vegas and make it into his Rome, using it as a capital city to begin turning the Legion into a fully fledged government.

[@Wylyth-nr3hq]

Just because they would win if the Courier wasn't a factor doesn't mean they are the right choice. You would NOT want to live under them, and don't delude yourself into thinking you would be one of the "elite" in the Legion.

[@koshthe1701d]

Ave. True to Caesar.

[@collinb.8542]

Even the Elite in the legion are still slaves. They get no grand parades as the great legionaries in Great Rome once did, the only thing they get are more responsibilities.

[@Chefkejr]

Without courier intervention it is indeed likely the legion will wij the battle of the dam, however crumble afterwards. While the courier can help the ncr in a plethora of ways, he is also required to keep Caesar dying from cancer. While lanius will definetly be able to keep control over the legion during the battle of the dam, it is unlikely he will be able to hold such a vast empire united much longer

[@supersoldier4079]

Just another reason the legion are effective villains.

[@brotherhoodz97]

Based and legion pilled. Caesar when he meets the post apocalyptic tribal confederation, and one of them goes by odoacer: 💀

[@henrykanning245]

The legion is an existential threat to the Mojave, and the whole west coast. If able to take New Vegas, Sallow could create a state around his army which can outlast him. Preventing him from crossing the damn is as important for the wasteland as stopping the master or the enclave. If sallow fails to take the dam, or is killed, their is no one currently capable of replacing him in the legion. Organizing your whole army around unconditional obedience to one man isn’t great for developing human capital to replace him when he inevitably dies.

[@namelessstranger1270]

Quite right but you understated how doomed the Legion is. Caesar canonically WILL DIE before the Legion could take the Dam. His tumor will kill him then the Legion will rapidly devolve into civil war. Guess never developing your empire technologically means nonexistent medical services. If your demigod leader who's worshipped like Kim-Jong Un can't get a brain surgery; what's the reality of medicine for everyone else in the Legion?

[@vivechjorviani5440]

You’re one of those guys that question how people in Middle Ages could possibly survive under the tyranny a king and not just off themselves

[@henrykanning245]

@@vivechjorviani5440 wtf did you mean by this? Fr you’ve made up a guy I got no clue who I’m supposed to be.

[@wowmazin4399]

@@namelessstranger1270 Caesar doesn't canonically die before the battle of hoover dam. The only case he can die if you fumble the surgery or purposefully kill him. He doesn't die if you take the NCR route. Although, President Kimball will always die unless the courier stops it.

[@namelessstranger1270]

​@@wowmazin4399 Fair though I think the tumor realistically develops at the same rate and the fact it magically is affected by the Courier's allegiance probably isn't canon either. So to keep it consistent, let's just say the tumor event's occurrence on the timeline is just when it WOULD happen on a Legion playthrough. You are right, Kimball would likely be slain. But critically, the NCR has a political system to transfer leadership quickly. Kimball dies and the next NCR President is elected (maybe even one that cracks down on internal corruption). It won't be much of a setback for the Republic. Meanwhile, when Caesar dies, it literally sets a fuse on an unstoppable civil war that will fracture and destroy the Legion. Kimball isn't the NCR but Caesar is The Legion.

[@youngkaiser5870]

Yeah, I feel like the legions look so strong because their lack of content

[@mcfeddle]

Honestly the idea of people so high on their own farts tanking bullets with mere football gear is unrealistic to say the least.

[@pacoramon9468]

The bull vs the bear, a tale as old as th XVII century.

[@agooddaytorespawn57]

Not with my Meltdown perk, they don't.

[@PerfectAlibi1]

They'll make sure they spread themselves out more when fighting you with fire arms. 😉

[@ryanrusch3976]

This is my whole point about the Legion, they’re winning the war before the Courier saves the NCR. Lanius is essentially a fantastic military commander as in his operations he encircles the Hoover Dam, cuts off supplies from Camps Golf and McCaran, wipes out Camp Bitter Springs, and secures all of Northern Vegas. You can’t do that if you’re bad at war.

[@wastelordslegends]

Playing Minecraft with Cypher rn and he's playing as Caesar and industrializing everything 🤣.

[@theneocypher]

Ave!!

[@wobinich2009]

I find it amusingly fitting how you talk like Ulysses, just without the mask. It suits the narration well.

[@dominicsouthern7672]

The NCR is under supplied and understaffed not only that but have to deal with incompetent leadership, but if all 3 issues are resolved then the NCR could annihilate most issues plaguing them in the mojave

[@theneocypher]

Most definitely! Just look at how successful the Rangers are

[@AcornScorn]

They also were up against the Legion and House at the same time. House mentions the NCR could easily win against either of them, but risking an attack on one, leaves them too vulnerable from an attack on another.

[@dominicsouthern7672]

@@AcornScorn thats because of the other issues but a properly manned NCR could probably be able to deal with both

[@doghat1619]

@@dominicsouthern7672Yeah but the NCR is badly managed and overexpanded, that's kind of the point of the faction. It's like saying, oh the legion would annihilate most issues if they had good tech, or house would annihilate most issues if he had gotten the platinum chip in time and had a few loyal trustworthy underlings. Yeah, the factions all have issues, that's why people still discuss the game, there's no "correct" option

[@beefestrogen5276]

I always assumed that the Courier would likely hand over the chip to Mr. House considering that's the job they were paid and set out to originally do.

[@louditalian1962]

The Legion are the only hope for the Mojave.

[@Jurism1]

Finally, a proper analysis of the Legion

[@samuelham4520]

I think it comes down to House vs. the Legion ultimately. Despite how it looks I don’t think it’s an overwhelming victory for the Legion, they will take losses from the fight. If House plays his cards right (pun intended) and if he gets the platinum chip I see him pretty effectively mopping up the rest of the Legion and securing Hoover Damn for New Vegas.

[@countryfemboy5795]

lol not really house didn’t even know legion was in new Vegas

[@freddiedavies6415]

Sadly your headcannon isn't possible. 'Benny could hold the platinum chip at gunpoint' in House's own words. House cannot upgrade the securitrons without the Chip, which Benny goes to the fort with and gets captured. When Caesar has the chip, he has complete leverage over house.

[@namelessstranger1270]

I imagine House would deploy chemical weapons if the Legion pushed into the Mojave without the NCR to resist.

[@MrJefferson07]

@@freddiedavies6415 Is Benny becoming an idiot all of a sudden? Even Yes-Man would tell him he's stupid to rush inside the Fort.

[@andyfriederichsen]

I will never understand how Legion soldiers armed with machetes and wearing armor made from thin scrap metal and sports gear (which would have at most some Kevlar in it, unable to stop rifle rounds) can survive multiple rounds from an M16 and win against against a professional, standardized army.

[@bog2543]

The fact that Legion exists by the time FNV's events take place is a major plot hole borne entirely out of Obsidian's writers' lack of research and understanding of what artillery is, what the basics of modern warfare are like and how Fallout unverse's warfare can differ from our own. Between foolproof plans like blowing the Fort up with a Fat Man all the way from the other side of the Dam (no, the world scaling argument does not fly here, as this is a real world area and it only has 4-6km of distance between the Fort and the NCR-controlled area) to more complex and risky plans like sending a few rangers up to Fort walls with heavy machine guns and just shredding everything to pieces without ever setting foot inside (because in the real world, bullets don't stop as soon as there is a thing in the way, a 9mm pistol can easily pierce a car door, for which the fences of the Fort are a fair, if a bit rough, equivalent), there is absolutely no plausible reason why the Fort shouldn't be a smoldering ruin after being a known enemy position for months. Yet, we have not a single reference to a myriad of ways you can completely obliterate it with zero effort and using things both the NCR, common Mojave wasters or even escaped Legion slaves could utilize.

[@fallout0624]

The NCR just flat out can't make it to the fort, even with artillery fire (which the NCR doesn't really have there the dam has a flak cannon but that's about all). But let's say the NCR sends in all their rangers to attack the fort they'd lose that's an entire legion army that wouldn't just have the camp perimeter undefended. Crossing the dam they run head first into Lanius's camp so another level of resistance to beat first. Water crossings are out of the question too they are hard to pull off with modern equipment and modern logistics for the NCR to manage. Obsidian had enough of an understanding to know the NCR couldn't reasonably attack the most fortified position in the entire Mojave we see a tiny fragment of the Fort not the entire fort itself

[@bog2543]

​@@fallout0624 They don't need covering fire to get to the Fort, they can just smash the Fort with artillery fire. These aren't bunkers, these aren't trenches - they are tents, on a hill. Flammable cloth held up by flammable cloth covering flammable cloth, in the middle of a dry desert. No, they don't have artillery outside of the gigantic howitzer at the Dam and that is a gigantic plothole because of how easy it is to make homemade mortars and West Coast is incredibly rich in phosphate, something that can be turned into a substance that causes chemical fires that aren't extinguished by water. They have Gun Runners with pre-war schematics doing contract work with them, Followers and their libraries, BoS tech and they don't know how to make something that existed since 15th century despite knowing how gunpowder works? Even in that case, why can't you just ask the Boomers or Remnants to attack the Fort before the Battle begins? No, the rangers don't need to get to the Fort, it's just one of the options: send a bunch of guys with heavy machine guns from the other side of the river and start shredding at the fences and everyone that peeks out. Other possible options include: shooting the tents with sniper rifles loaded with incendiary ammo (yes, you can do that, the Fort is only 4-6km away from the NCR's side of the Dam), shooting the tents with missile launchers (rockets have higher range than sniper rifles IRL), chucking Mini Nukes at them (tricky, but very doable if you combine it with rangers going in from the back), crashing vertiberds stacked with nuclear explosives into the Fort (yes, they have vertiberds after robbing the Brotherhood).

[@fallout0624]

@@bog2543 all forms of artillery are very taxing on any logistical train. So not a plot hole imagine trying to move any amount of artillery without modern equipment it's EXTREMELY hard the munitions themselves aren't light either. The boomers are still hostile to the NCR aswell they side with the courier not with a faction. The remnants the NCR wouldn't even talk to them they are war criminals in NCR territory. Also the longest ever confirmed sniper shot was the short side of your estimate at roughly 4 kilometers rockets don't have a longer range they have a rather short range (using the RPG-7 as a baseline with its 700 meter range). It's not cod there are limits to how far you can accurately hit something.

[@bog2543]

@@fallout0624 You don't need to move a lot of mortars, you need 2-6 to end the entire Fort. These can be made by hobbyists on the spot and weigh not all that impossibly much. I've seen barrack busters that were made for high school science projects You don't need to fire accurately, that's the whole point. You're looking to hit a big tent in a village of tents, not someone. Sniper rifles can do that. Modern anti-tank rocket launchers have can get 3-4km distances and Fallout is a science fiction game, so it shouldn't be surprising that its most common missile launcher has guidance systems. Boomers and Remnants don't need to "help the NCR", they need to help the Courier by bombing a place. What is this argument even?

[@fallout0624]

@@bog2543 you'd need more advanced mortas or to increase the size of them. man portable mortars aren't super long range weapons. As for "you don't need to hit accurately" yes you do a miss of the target is still a miss, I used the literal world record shot and that's still not the range we are looking at do you really think the NCR has the same equipment that the guy who took the world record shot does . The Boomers and Enclave remnants are both HOSTILE to the NCR at first there is no negotiation with either party on the NCRs part you brought them up despite that.

[@BogAppulBagul]

I think people don’t give lanius enough credit, he’s built up the whole game as a mindless animal but he’s the only person in the whole legion who sees a conquest of california is impossible and that the legion just can’t handle it

[@phantomix5693]

One frequently used argument for a Legion loss is Caesar's tumor and inevitable death without the courier's intervention, causing them to crumble from within when Lanius takes command. However, people who claim this are just NCR fans who are too low-test to even attempt a real Legion playthrough, and therefore wrong. Let me explain; Lanius is probably one of the most misunderstood characters by both fans and in-game NPCs alike, which was always the intention. The multiple differing accounts of his origin and exploits only serve to bolster the legend of Lanius, the "Monster of the East", a symbol to strike fear into both the Legion and their enemies. Upon meeting him, we see that he is in fact a rational and tactical thinker, a subversion of what we've been led to expect. Even in non Legion playthroughs he is level-headed enough to be reasoned with. Caesar may say that Lanius "has no love for the Legion" but this just means he is indifferent to Caesar's future vision, not the martial ideals of the current Legion or its structure. He even devotedly worships Mars. Lanius is not the kind of person to allow the Legion to crumble, if anything he'll see the whole Legion as just another army for him to command. Even with Ceasar gone, the Legion's leadership remains strong. Lanius may not have use for Vulpes and the Frumentarii, but he would still remain a copetent advisor, and Lucius is another strong candidate for leadership in the absence of the other two. tldr; The Legion doesn't end with Caesar.

[@theneocypher]

Spot on!

[@paul7432]

lanius is intelligent yes, when it comes to military matters. He absolutely can not run a nation for long, and the other generals will fight over the legions corpse. I am not saying the legion will inevitably die without Caesar, but it'd be foolish to say Lanius is its savior should Caesar die

[@marlongomezacevedo2170]

>he is in fact a rational and tactical thinker >The Followers of the Apocalypse were hunted down and exterminated >Legate Lanius had Hanlon crucified along with all of the other rangers >The Legion brutally occupied all major locations, killing and enslaving a large amount of the population Every single ending affected by Lanius being in power simply ends with people being killed, that doesn't seem very tactical nor rational to me lol, once Caesar is gone, Lanius will throw away his ideologies and simply wage war, meaning, he won't see the need to annex more tribes until it is too late, and will simply slaughter them, slaughtering the Legion in the process (that if he doesn't get murdered in true Roman fashion once people see how stupid he is).

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

​@@marlongomezacevedo2170Low T response

[@keysersoze9395]

Lanius may be intelligent, though he's described as an unpredictable lunatic. You may want person like that on mid-level of command, he's certainly not the person to rule the whole organisation. He can't distance his beliefs from what is the best outcome. Also him getting too much power can (and it's possible in game) lead to the wrath of Caesar which may not be the worst by itself, though being replaced by Lanius is.

[@16.krjmonata74]

Hey , looked everywhere in the comments and description but couldnt find it but what mod do you use for the better looking legion models planning to do a playthrough on legion and id love to have it!

[@theneocypher]

We are Legion - Dragbody Good luck! 👍

[@robjsmiles]

Strength in numbers. Pure efficiency. Pure loyalty. Survival. Not weighed down with the moral sensibilities of the old world. This is a society that survives. It breeds pure strength and skill. While others rebuild bureaucracy, carefully constructing the folly of their predecessors, the horde grows. It takes an exceptional individual to break this force. A courier possessed of unshakeable will.

[@redlight3932]

you realize the legion is coping the folly of our ancestor's to a T

[@bonehed1]

​@@redlight3932 The NCR is essentially an attempt at rebuilding the US government as it was before the war, which, mind you, was an awful place much worse than the USA of reality. They are directly copying the style of government used by one of the countries that destroyed the entire world in nuclear war. The Legion may use Roman aesthetics and some ideas, but ultimately they are a military force adapted specifically to produce the toughest, most determined soldiers in a post-apocalyptic hellscape.

[@rulingmoss5599]

@@bonehed1 Sounds gay and communist.

[@vintz3327]

Why the legion always wins. That one courier: *Are you sure about that*

[@FatherTullys_Temperance]

The legion will win because Hanlon is in a nursing home and because for the barons back east winning would be expensive while losing would be free

[@theneocypher]

If only Hanlon was running operations instead of Oliver..

[@xyroisahiro6022]

Not if my chem addicted courier has anything to say about it.

[@magicman3163]

Remake this with the knowledge that the NCR is gone

[@friendlyneighborhoodspider9416]

With Lanius being in charge I could see a civil war within the legion. And the death of Vulpes and his men. The Legate already hates Vulpes he just can’t outright murder him because of Ceaser so with him out of the way Rip to Vulpes. Either way Vulpes could die early on if the Courier doesn’t condone of his mass murder

[@chrisgarbutt1893]

While I love my NCR brother and sisters, for the sake of the franchise moving forward I believe the Legion should win at Hoover Dam. Imagine if Caesar actually transformed the Legion from a nomadic slave army into a settled new Roman empire with a civilian infrastructure and military on par with the NCR. Imagine New Vegas completely transformed with Roman inspired monuments, the grand halls of a new senate with senators from across the east serving it's Caesar and Imperial family. New legionaries armed with modern weapons, armor, and motorized chariots marching west to take on the Bear and Brotherhood in a ideological struggle for America. What a dream game that would be, True To Caesar!

[@marlongomezacevedo2170]

Think they'd have to pull the biggest retcon yet just to do that, Caesar doesn't have much time left and no one in the legion really seems to care about the Legion's Ideologies, or if they do, they don't have the charm or intelligence to pull it off. It'd be cool, yeah, but would make zero sense.

[@overlordoftemi7255]

As a NCR supporter... true lol. Though, I think house probably could also stand a chance.

[@theneocypher]

I honestly think house would sweep either one if he had his army of upgraded securitrons.

[@PerfectAlibi1]

@@theneocypher Yeah, if House managed to fully upgrade his securitrons, they would MINCE MEAT any one standing against him. And those bots even have a highly advanced auto repair feature, so even if they go down, they might still get back up!

[@lukemays706]

Buddy fell for Caesarian propaganda

[@P4RK3R1Z3D]

Caesar's Legion always wins because it took a long time for me to get these overhaul mods working and I'm going to use them.

[@derekrau8236]

You make great arguments for why the legion would win this battle, but the war is always going to be won by the NCR. The slave economy of the legion hard caps how much it can grow and the high level production we know the NCR already has. On top of the fact the NCR has an Air Force, and I believe even a Navy all but insures NCR long term victor.

[@fallout0624]

If the NCR loses the Mojave they have basically no chance of reclaiming it, the Mojave is basically just choke points and the NCR only has one real entry point (Mojave outpost) an air force is great but without the guys on the ground they are worthless for capturing territory. Also the NCR is in a couple of bad spots they don't have the water resources required to maintain their farming operations (too many fields in California a place where in the modern day water is still a bit of an issue). It's not purely one sided

[@derekrau8236]

@@fallout0624 eventually the legion runs out of territory to conquer that isn’t NCR, with out proper ways of re-arming and supplying there army falls apart. Slave economies do not compete with industrial ones. War is always about technology and attrition both things the NCR will win at. The legion can take a huge desert if they want but without the ability to properly take advantage of the technology in Vegas they will suffer from the same problem the NCR has, to much territory to little man power, but worst with no dam to make clean water, and no real agriculture. Once Ceaser dies the hope of the legion evolving into anything else dies with him. Converting NCR citizens will also be a lot harder then converting tribals into legionaries. The truth is the game is rigged from the start against the NCR.

[@fallout0624]

@@derekrau8236 the Legion doesn't need to conquer, Caesar wants a proper capital to change the Legion from a nomadic raiding army to a standing army. Remember without Vegas the NCR has 10 years before they run out of natural water resources (even Chief Hanlon talks about how few lakes there are). Technology and numbers do matter in war but if you don't have enough resources or logistics to transport them they are all but useless (a pro to the Legion making their own machetes in-house ). Also big note, Hoover dam produces power lake Meade in game is naturally pure water so no need for the dam to really operate that efficiently farming isn't a problem the Legion already has subjects who still run farms in their territory. Converting NCR civilians would be about the same as converting your average tribal aswell if not easier because of the rampant crime in the NCR Cass even states how much safer Legion caravans are when compared to NCR caravans. Both sides have major pros and major cons, if the Legion wins in New Vegas they get A LOT more then just the city and the territory, the gun runners won't be able to evacuate and take all their schematics and tooling with them leaving the Legion a literal arms factory (small as it is one arms factory would be able to eventually arm their whole army)

[@derekrau8236]

@@fallout0624 but without the Courier Ceaser would die. Lanious would take over not Vulpis. What transportation does the legion have, feet. What manufacturing do the legion have, stealing from others. What agricultural does the legion have, non. Actually the legion can’t keep up a war with the NCR. Look to history and you’ll see the best comparison to the Legion is not Rome but Sparta. Sparta had the best warriors around but could field a legitimate army because they were constantly thwarting slave revolts. And just because the NCR has a bad reputation in the Mojave does not mean there the same across California. Tribals will follow strength over anything else. Where as the citizens of the NCR have a society to fight for, education, plenty of things to keep them from wanting to be literal slaves.

[@fallout0624]

@@derekrau8236 we only see that option if the courier is working with the Legion. He is leading the second battle of Hoover dam, Vuples isn't going to sit around with his massive spy network, the courier is only taking a place. The legion doesn't make use of advanced manufacturing but they also have actual blacksmiths in the fort. The Legion is also said to run off of a tide system (10 percent of whatever is produced). Yes the NCR has a bad reputation pretty much everywhere the Hub is literally undermining the NCR's currency with caps. It's not simple black and white the NCR is more dangerous than Legion territory that's what what gets cities on their side (they become subjects not citizens or legionaries from all that's established in game)

[@WeeG-bwc77]

Some people think Caesar's death alone would finish the Legion, but there's always an Augustus after the Caesar.

[@cyberman179]

WE MAKING IT OUT OF FREESIDE WITH THIS ONE!! 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🐃🐃🐃

[@theneocypher]

Ave! Thank you so much! 🙏

[@apollocohoe3459]

Love it so far, but man’s trying so hard to do a Ulysses impression

[@RedRabbitEntertainment]

-President is assassinated by Legionaries - NCR Loses Second Battle of Hoover Dam -NCR Soldiers and citizens brutally executed and enslaved -NCR citizens at home suddenly enraged that their family were butchered like that. -War against the Legion becomes popular in California -First post war military industrial complex springs into action -Ceasar learns why an NCR skeleton crew was able to embarrass him at the First Battle of Hoover Dam

[@Pesto_pasta]

What mod is he using for the even more badass looking legionnaires

[@WillyShankspeare]

What makes you think Legionaries are highly trained? Their whole shtick is that they nearly won at Hoover Dam because of overwhelming numbers and unwavering dedication.

[@bonehed1]

They are highly trained and disciplined. You can see that everywhere you look. The single advantage that NCR has in terms of its infantry is that basically all of them have semi-auto rifles, while the Legionaries are mostly working with lever actions and machetes.

[@doghat1619]

Legionaries are trained since childhood, you hear about this from multiple NPCs and can see an instructor watching over a few children at the fort. The NCR on the other hand, when you visit camp golf you meet the misfits, a squad with virtually no training or cohesion, and many NPCs in the NCR military talk about how they're being sent raw recruits that aren't even supplied with body armour. The NCR had better technology, the advantage of a dug in, fortified position and the fact that the legion's only way to assault hoover dam is running across the top of a narrow and exposed dam. Snipers, and men with machine guns would mow down the legion (and that is what happened)

[@Randomusername56782]

@@doghat1619 I mean, isn't it pretty much also directly stated with the misfits that all the NCR forces being sent down into the mojave are the equivalent of the reserves or state guard? And that the majority of the NCR's professional contract soldiers are in the north or in baja?

[@doghat1619]

@@Randomusername56782 Yeah, I believe Chief Hanlon mentions how the majority of their power armor troops and a lot of the rangers are back in the NCR heartlands protecting Brahmin Baron's lands from non-existent raiders.

[@Jim-Bagel]

I usually join the legion since they have cool heavy armor. Also more practical than the depowered power armor. Has a classic feel.

[@LaputanMachad]

Despite having an army equipped with firearms and even laser weapons and power armor, are managing to lose to a bunch of Roman larping weirdos in old football pads armed primarily with melee weapons. That will never stop being funny to me Edit: If I had known that this comment would have sparked a wildfire of Vietnam and Afghanistan takes I would have been even more belligerent and directly compared it to any number of real Empires getting cockslapped by the Vietnamese and Afghanis.

[@Imfphas20]

It strikes a similar irony to our World's largest and most funded army losing to rice farmers and goat herders.

[@duckling3615]

@@Imfphas20 But the American army did not lose the war. By the end of the Vietnam War North Vietnam was on the back foot as they even lost support from China due to Nixon's political manoeuvres. The American state lost the war by being unable to ensure the home front long enough to force the Viet Cong out of South Vietnam. Because that did not happen it was a matter of time before the South fell. In Afghanistan, the army did actually lose the war because they actually had the mandate to completely eradicate the enemy while in Vietnam the North was not to be directly invaded and subdued.

[@Imfphas20]

@@duckling3615 You are saying that the domestic popular consensus created a mandate which led to the loss of the war. This is true but it also implies that the war was otherwise soon to be won. The way it was waged was unwinnable and horridly incompetent, which guaranteed America's defeat. Between the 'pacified village index', the inability to actually engaged the North on their turf, and ridiculous protocols like helicopters having to ask for permission to return fire, it was unwinnable. Sure you can point to casualty and hardware loss disparities, but it didn't mean much in the end.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

​@@Imfphas20 Not soon to be won, but it is very likely the us would have won Vietnam had we stayed

[@Imfphas20]

@@spiffygonzales5160 We'll have to disagree. I do not see how it could have been won especially with ill-defined and scarcely achievable parameters for victory, namely, the pacified villages index. The quick collapse of the Southern government (much like the Afghanistan government) after the US left is further evidence of this.

[@NashiHeartSoulSpirit]

You don’t need to remove Courier Six from the situation as frankly it’s likely the cannon path given what we learn about Courier Six.

[@BS-bv5sh]

TL;DW: The bad guys would win if the protagonist didn't do something about it. Can you imagine how bad story telling it would be if the side you are expected to sympathize with was ahead and had nothing to worry about besides making the upcoming battle a little easier?

[@bonehed1]

Not everybody sympathizes with the NCR, it's easy to see the problems with them and want to side with House or go independent even if you don't like the Legion. I never liked NCR, they are just following the footsteps of the blatantly evil and massively corrupt pre-war Fallout US government.

[@MrJefferson07]

Then don't make sides you are expected to sympathize with, unless you are weak minded.