cishet men in lesbian spaces

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[@PGOuma]

Gay men and gay bars are more welcoming towards straight women because they know that they aren't gonna get hit on (usually, not all the time) and they know how straight men are in regular bars. Like, that's why she doesn't get confronted when she's in gay bars... A lot of lesbians have had experiences where men try to "win them over" and they get harassed by these men, so they're gonna be put off more by seeing a random man there. And yes, we shouldn't strictly stick to stereotypes, but as a transmasc person, I'd personally feel more safe around a flamboyant, colorfully styled guy than a random cis looking man...

[@aviendha1154]

Tbh as a gay man I’d prefer straight women not invade our spaces. They absolutely DO hit on us, and if they come for long enough eventually straight men follow them and that’s just annoying.

[@berserkagain7976]

It's not really a stereotype, it's been statistically proven that 99.1% of all r4pists are men and by far they commit the most sexaul crimes in general unfortunately.

[@UncleSamsoniteLover69]

True, but what I don’t like about this situation was the blatant adherence to stereotypes the lesbian who confronted the guy had. It was established there were gay men in the bar and none of the lesbians seemed to have an issue with them being there, my question is how did they immediately know the guy invited by the op wasn’t gay? Not all gay men are flamboyant, what if he was gay and she essentially profiled him as straight for not being feminine? That’s where this argument and this story loses me. As a trans dude, I say either every man is allowed or no man is. We can’t just kick people out of public places based on how well they fit stereotypes.

[@youyeedyourlasthaw]

@@UncleSamsoniteLover69that’s addressed further in the video 👍

[@The_Ruf_Rud]

Yeah agreed. Usually the men dressing in all colors of the rainbow make me feel 10x more comfortable than the random guy in jeans and a tee shirt

[@dustin4747]

It is wild how much information you either inflate or make up in this incredibly overblown situation.

[@nedkaram8544]

Right!? Excuse me if I'm wrong, but where in the original video did she say that there was a big line outside? How do they know how long he waited in line, and why speculate about "why" he needed to be there at all if he was just stopping by to say hello? There were so many blanks filled in because they WANTED to make this guy feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. As a bi woman, I've experienced this quite a few times because I don't "look" queer, and biphobia is absolutely rampant and often unchecked in these spaces.

[@dustin4747]

@@nedkaram8544 You're certainly not wrong. I felt those same frustrations that she filled in blanks in pretty presumptuous ways. Weirdly enough, the testimony from the other woman that was there also didn't really clarify much either. It was like she was just giving her pov that seemed like it was just trying to downplay her role in the event, when it could be arguably perceived differently. This whole thing just reeks of intolerance when everyone couldve just had a good time with more people there, supporting the bar. FFS why are we going back to segregating people of differing backgrounds.

[@bulelwashezi4540]

@@nedkaram8544 The delulu of this comment. You shouldn't need to be spoonfed such obvious things. It's one THREE sapphic bars in all of nyc. ALL of NYC. With a capacity of 75. You either think there are like 300 queer women in all of nyc or you're intentionally being daft of the situation because you would absolutely behave the way this insufferable woman did so you feel the need to defend this behaviour.

[@SkeetersGuitar]

​@dustin4747 pssst here's a little secret. (White women have been pulling these "exclusive spaces" things on black men for years.) It felt like Deja vû all over again

[@joelleash8873]

Idk at first I thought the situation seemed pretty ridiculous, but after seeing the other woman’s side, I feel differently. I don’t feel like there was enough information (or interesting information) to make a whole video about this and agree that it was overblown. I’m a bisexual woman, and ultimately I don’t see a problem with cishet men coming into lesbian spaces if they were invited to be there. I also don’t see a problem with the lady asking the cishet man if he was with anyone, depending on how she went about it. I’ve been victimized personally by many cishet men, and so has almost every woman I know (at least the ones who’ve shared). I’m not the clubbing/bar hopping type, and I’ve only ever been to a gay bar, but I can definitely see why these spaces are important to have for queer people who are and who want a safe space

[@mboseman2895]

I find it odd that you say that trans men are "soft" and "non-confrontational." You do realize trans men and trans people are not a conglomerate, right? They're individuals, and acting a certain way doesn't make them any less trans. It's just a weird take.

[@nedkaram8544]

Yeah that comment, along with "they would probably find it affirming" if a trans man was asked why he's there was absolutely gross. It's just more questioning of someone's "legitimacy" to exist. I've had just quite masc looking cis women friends get hassled while in female public toilets. One of them would even loudly say "Would you like to see my vag as proof!?" because it happened so frequently. It NEVER feels okay to have to legitimise your own gender or "reason" for existing in a specific space, trans or not.

[@putaromason5234]

Did she say they was any less trans??? What are u talking about? She literally said more than likely they wouldn't respond like that cause they been through it and would also relate to what women go through. What weird take are u making? Why does that offend u so much that she is saying they would be better people wouldn't that be great to hear?? I think there's some issues you need to unpack because acting as if she saying they're like obedient dogs and would respond correctly sounds like a real personal issue and u need therapy.

[@boomf98]

@@putaromason5234​​⁠I feel like you’re kinda missing the comment’s original point. It doesn’t matter if you take what she said as kind or saying that trans men are going to be “better people” than cis men for being less confrontational, the commenter is pointing out how it’s generally strange to speak about a group as a conglomerate. Also, that really can be a kind of damaging assumption. It’s like saying cis women are nicer than x because their “feminine nature” makes them sweeter and less judgmental. I hear that a whole lot, but it’s always going to be backhanded and gross to hear because it’s inherently separating a group/assuming something about their personality and behavior based on something they’re incapable of controlling.

[@putaromason5234]

@@boomf98 I can get what ur saying but that's the thing. Bringing up that trans men and trans people are different. Or saying that it's the opposite saying of trans women which ur assuming I would be saying ciswomen would be more gentle and feminine which is not true at all especially when I didn't state that. The reason I was only speaking of trans men was because trans men were part of the conversation. Trans women weren't really part of the conversation. But its weirder to feel some type of way when she is saying more than likely they wouldn't act out that way. Which is true is it not? It's weird how trying to include all trans people into the conversation when not all is being applied into the conversation. They have their own separate issues and trying to include all of them isn't going to fix them. It would just be going back and forth instead of just going forward. But like I said, it's weird feeling some way when it isn't downplaying you. It's like receiving a compliment but get mad it doesn't apply to every single person. Wouldn't u find that kind of alarming and strange when they could've just took the compliment. Yes not all trans men are the same, just like all trans people aren't the same but that doesn't need to be applied every time. Applying all would just make trans people look bad. So I hope u see how trying to include everyone isn't going to help at all in ur case.

[@Vaguer_Weevil]

​@@putaromason5234 I'm trans and I would react very negatively to her questioning me like that. What now, cupcake?

[@msgabiwan2728]

As a bi woman, i dont think its fair to judge someones sexuality based of their appearance. They shouldnt dress "gay" all rainbows and that just to prove theyre gay like... literally anyone can be gay even if they look straight. Its not fair and actually heartbreaking. We are all people, why should we all dress flamboyant just to show our sexuality??? Let's just stop assuming these things. And honestly, if I was a confronted by someone "what are you doing here" I'd also reply aggressively back, not everyone responds the same way. Let's stop with the stereotypical bs and just be all friendly to each other, not excluding anyone from anything.

[@nedkaram8544]

I'm quite I guess "vanilla" looking, and in my baby bi days I absolutely and consistently experienced biphobia at queer events and bars. On more than one occasion when a woman would hit on me and I turned them down, I was met with things like "Tourist" and shit like "Fucking KNEW you were just some straight bitch". No. I just don't like being aggressively hit on and/or I'm not attracted to you. The gatekeeping was really gross, honestly. The last time I went to a queer event was around 5 years ago and it was much the same, if not maybe even a little worse?

[@msgabiwan2728]

@nedkaram8544 I'm sorry you had to go through that, you should be and dress like yourself no matter what anyone says.

[@miayoung8679]

I absolutely agree.

[@adorablechrysalis7386]

Agreed

[@mistixthedivine]

As a person who is heavily aspiring to be more feminine and androgynous aka a femboy yet is still straight and male cis, I can’t tell you enough how much it crushes my self esteem to see others assume that every straight guy wants to be this “big rough macho dude” when that’s not the case for all of us. There’s literally subreddits dedicated entirely to straight femboys to show this There’s feminine straight men There’s feminine gay men There’s masculine straight men There’s masculine gay men There’s feminine straight women There’s even masculine straight women There’s feminine lesbians There’s masculine lesbians And finally there’s both masculine and feminine non binary people Let this be a lesson to end stereotypes and assumptions

[@procrastinatingpuma]

The framing here is wild. They were invited by their lesbian friend. She started the confrontation by aggressively asking him what he is doing. Could he have de-escalated better? certainly, but even the other patrons *at this bar* thought that what she said was unnecessarily rude.

[@tbrem257]

This person is just ignorant look at the rest of her videos.

[@eijirokirishima4138]

I usually agree with kiwis analysis but in this case I think that because it seems like the guy was invited in by his friend who is a lesbian, it was okay. If they asked him to leave and he made it a big deal then I would say he’s in the wrong but that’s not what happened.

[@eijirokirishima4138]

Okay watching more I see that the guy did do that

[@cliftonguyette2498]

@@eijirokirishima4138 he did not do that

[@wolliw-em5mc]

​@@eijirokirishima4138it would've been fine anyway I think bc at the end of the day he's just existing & they're funding a lesbian bar which is always good. It's great when people can get along regardless of identity.

[@twitchy_bird]

I went to one of the only gay bars in my nearby city (lesbian/gay bar and we were there for a drag show!) and as I was enjoying myself, having fun, I saw an older trans lady who was not really dressed for the club and obviously pretty uncomfortable with herself there, so I offered for her to dance with me...... Then, of course, the straight couple at the bar called me over and whispered quite conspiratorial that "she is not a *she* if you know what I mean, *that's a MAAAN* " How ridiculous can people be?? They came to the queer bar. What were they expecting?

[@LilFeralGangrel]

I mean I think they're there to gawk at "degenerates" and mock them. I hope they got booted.

[@justaperson4656]

Did you at least improve her night? Sounds like she was having a rough time

[@kelseydeboer1136]

Lmao they were okay with drag? But not if it's really a person's identity? Omg the weird morality gymnastics they're doing!

[@twitchy_bird]

@@justaperson4656 Oh yeah! Thankfully she had a better time after I invited her into the group. She told me she was newly out, it was one of her first times going out at all since coming out, and her first time at a bar since. I know she at least had a much better time having people to hang out with, I hope she had as great of a time as it seemed and looks back on it with positivity.

[@twitchy_bird]

@@kelseydeboer1136 Right?? I was shocked. I told them no, she is a woman, but you know what? Half those people on stage identify as men. It's fine when they're drag queens, but not when they're truly trans women?

[@arcaneSae]

Id only go into one of those spaces if invited by someone who is actually part of that group first

[@stephaniex90]

Seconded.

[@arcaneSae]

​@stephaniex90 and if you get asked to leave dont whine just let your friend know and at least wait outside

[@laulau194]

Same, and if I happened to get hit on by someone I'm not into then I'd turn them down as politely as possible - in my (admittedly limited) experience women are about 1000 times more chill about getting turned down than men.

[@TheRubyRaider]

We need more people like you

[@Jade.051]

@@laulau194In my experience that’s usually because women know that of someone turns them down it doesn’t mean they themselves have something wrong or that the other person is being rude, had pretty bad experiences with men, although there’s also women who are too full of themselves

[@MannTekJanne]

"Its Totally ok to assume gender if they are male..." what a wonderful paradox.

[@badasahog]

yeah, that's pretty funny

[@Zigzipy]

Mate, we assume gender all the time. Are you just rocking up at work, at the grocery store, at school never assuming that someone is a man or a woman? Maybe you dont. But the rest of the world does and always will.

[@SeifellAlmancht]

Sorry but i strongly disagree on some of your points. I'm gay but i am VERY straight passing. So, I would most likely find myself in the same situation as the guy talked about in the video. Is that okay? Just because you would assume I'm straight would it be okay to treat me that way? How did they know the man was straight? They had gay men there but was it only because they were stereotypical that they were okay? That's incredibly disappointing... Basically, what my understanding is, "if you aren’t stereotypically gay then you aren't gay ENOUGH". And he was invited to come say hello. So was the issue that he wasn't escorted in? I'm confused.

[@kweerdeer]

The issue was that he asked 'If I wasn't here with someone, would it be a problem?' because it's supposed to be a lesbian bar, so it's not really made for men, cishet or not

[@resintom852]

@@kweerdeerapparently it isn’t a lesbian bar. It’s an inclusive bar. Thus, the many obvious gay men in the bar weren’t accosted. It was only when someone didn’t pass as “gay” that someone was approached about their “right” to be there. That’s kinda fucked up, imo. So going against the bar’s own explicitly stated guidelines to try to prevent someone from being there *based on your own feelings as a customer* is extra creepy.

[@kweerdeer]

@@resintom852 sorry, from what I understood it was a lesbian bar. But tbh I think that even if it was a lesbian bar it still wouldn't be okay, because he could've been a trans woman or a nb person, so I really don't think that they should've said that either way, and I agree, that's kinda fucked up

[@resintom852]

@@kweerdeer no worries, I think it was like a lesbian night maybe. I haven’t watched this video in a bit 😅 But yeah just on the surface, it’s bizarre to me that any gay person would think it’s acceptable to assume someone’s sexuality without even knowing them. And then to *act* on that assumption is just wild to me. I don’t care if she was right lmao I understand the need for places to congregate and connect with likeminded people, but sorry bars are private businesses lol Everyone saying that there aren’t enough lesbian bars might have to think about opening their own? Idk, gay bars exist everywhere, and it’s not like lesbians or gays are being barred from owning businesses. 🤷‍♂️ not yet anyway 😮‍💨

[@ZealotOfSteal]

​@@kweerdeerSo discrimination is okay, because the place wasn't really made for people like that? So if someone says that the US is a Christian country and it wasn't made for queer people, that okay too, right? It's a space not really made for those kinds of people.

[@97BlueFlame]

So in the original instance being described the man isn't hitting on any of the lesbians there, there's no way to know that he's definitely cishet (could be non-binary, bi, queer, etc.), and he's just sitting at a table with the woman who invited him out and there's an issue with this? Does anyone else understand how insane this sounds? If the bouncer didn't deny entry and he's not doing anything to disturb the women there or make the space less safe, then this is ridiculous reaction to have to the circumstances.

[@Seth-v6r]

don't use their logic against them. That's not allowed.

[@bdd7881]

Sitting at a table with their friends? Surely doesn't sound like it when the guy was in the way of the line to the bathroom. That's not sitting. And there was 0 issue till he escalated the situation.

[@kaiserreichtangle3120]

@@bdd7881 she asked an aggressive question. Play stupid games win stupid prizes, treat people how you wanna be treated don't be confrontational over a bathroom line.

[@_molls]

@@bdd7881so the appropriate response to blatant discrimination is to not get annoyed and call it out for what it is?

[@cat-zp1rg]

​@@_mollsare you suggesting that a straight man being unwelcomed in a lesbian space is discrimination?

[@richardcrooks6713]

At least Homer Simpson was just trying to look for a new bar, and was concerned about the safety of the patrons before he left.

[@SiRenfield]

“What’s her problem?”

[@AleTitan]

*Gasp* "There's no fire exit. Enjoy your deathtrap, ladies"

[@BewilderedCitrus]

Wait, which episode was that?

[@sichrix]

​@@BewilderedCitrus"Fear Of Flying"

[@SiRenfield]

@@BewilderedCitrus S6E11 Fear of Flying

[@catrakitten]

As a lesbian/ace, I'm fine with cishet men as long as they're not being racist, homophobic, biphobic, acephobic, transphobic, etc. Also, adorable Buzz Lightyear earrings.

[@quantumv4]

acrophobic? sorry if I misread but isn't that a fear of heights lol

[@catrakitten]

@@quantumv4 I recently changed it to acephobic. It was a typing mistake.

[@quantumv4]

@@catrakitten OH SORRY LMAO

[@catrakitten]

@@quantumv4 It's okay. 🥰🤗

[@chloewebb5526]

See, I feel that it should be a place where the male gaze is not present. I'm a trans woman who doesnt care for sex or relationships anymore, but still go to lesbian bars due to how lighthearted and fun things feel. I don't feel like I need to be on high alert all night, because there are no men who are going to start getting nasty with me simply to prove something to the friend that made fun of them for checking me out. Are there straight men who would be fun and respectful in that environment? Sure. But Theres a lot of people that see these bars as a getaway from men- hard stop. Almost all of us have a story about a guy who wouldn't listen, wouldn't stop, or wouldnt leave us alone. So I feel it isn't a big ask to keep cishet men out, imho³

[@onlinewhy]

I once got asked if I (as a straight man) would go to a popular cluster of queer bars in our city without any of my queer friends. I said probably not, and got berated for like 20 minutes for being "too bigoted" or "scared of gays" to go alone. Glad to hear that was a strange take for that person to have, and not the norm.

[@camillenaudin1967]

Yes, these people are weird. As a queer person I don't bring my cis het male friends to the queer bar. It's small, there's not enough room for everybody, and when I go to a queer bar, I expect to not have to deal with cis straight men at all. I think you were quite reasonable

[@bbrainworms]

@@onlinewhy it is a strange take this white girl just profiled men and said we should exclude them if they're straight looking then called all trans guys gentle and soft... wei4d behavior

[@onlinewhy]

@@bbrainworms not sure where you saw me profile anyone based on looks. Might want to reread the comment you replied to. Have a good one!

[@eblake7495]

as a trans guy id get pretty miffed if someone asked me why im in a queer space. why are you assuming all trans men would take that kind of question with grace? who cares if i pass if it means id be profiled as someone who doesnt belong? why cant i share queer spaces with my friend who happens to be straight and cis?? if i invited a cishet friend to go with me and they said no, even as some kind of politically conscious choice, id feel as though they arent embracing me or my community. why do i have to remove myself from the supposed safe space just to have a night out with a friend?? why do we see straight cis people going into our spaces expecting to feel welcomed as a bad thing? shouldnt that be the entire point of our community???? welcoming everyone without scrutinization?? too many people in our community have thrown away the idea of innocent until proven guilty. you look like a straight cis man? that makes you an aggressor, apparently. i just cant wrap my head around these exclusionary, essentialist ideas around acceptance. this entire argument is one step away from terf rhetoric. stop making other people's existence your problem. youre disrupting your own peace just to complain about other people's existence.

[@ananyashrivastav8298]

THE SANEST COMMENT HERE

[@xxkankala1671]

You missed the entire point of a safe space

[@beetlegeuse1961]

​@@xxkankala1671 public bars where everyone is intoxicated is not a safe space, also just bc it's a space made for queer ppl doesn't mean it's immediately safe, queer women have also faced harassment and assault at the hands of other queer women and I don't know why we act like this just doesn't happen or that bc men are more likely to do it that these instances don't matter or aren't just as traumatic, I know thats not explicitly what you're trying to do but as someone who has been assaulted by a woman it feels like our experiences are often glossed over bc our experiences don't fit the most popular narrative rn, hope this helps I hope I don't come across as aggressive just tryna give my two cents

[@jamescordensnumber1simp209]

Agree this women is delusional af

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

@@beetlegeuse1961 Safe spaces are spaces where no cisgender non-homosexual boys/men are...! 😎

[@allium_phyrzz]

I think this situation is pretty obvious, but its important to remember that no matter what you think, you cannot tell someone's sexuality or gender from their outward appearance. don't assume someone you don't know is straight or cis, you know?

[@ananyashrivastav8298]

my whole point is this

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

Sexuality not, but in most cases you can see if someone is a cisgender man or not - regardless if non-binary or not.

[@ananyashrivastav8298]

hello profiling is BAD. Judging and coming to conclusions on anyone solely based on their APPEARANCE is bad. That is what we have been fighting for since years!@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

@@ananyashrivastav8298 That is why I said in _most cases_ . Of course androgynous and masculine girls and women exist but they are not that common, so....

[@kaiserreichtangle3120]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess stop profiling

[@biggsasha]

I'm pretty disappointed with your responses to these TikToks, to be honest. I know no one will care, and I will probably get a lot of hate for this comment, but it is what it is. I used to work at a bar... I used to get sexually harrased, groped, and assaulted by drunk women every single night. When I would speak out, all I would get was laughter and comments like, "You're a guy. You should enjoy getting attention from women.". I did not enjoy it, and it gave me a phobia of being touched. Later on in life, I decided that the only bars I could feel safe in were lesbian bars if I wanted to go out for some drinks and just have fun with my friends (all of which are women). Yes, I am a cis het man... this video just makes me wonder if feeling safe only applies to anyone who isn't a cis het man.

[@randomusername3873]

Unfortunately these people don't care about harassment unless they can use it to prove a political point

[@localerik]

i am very sorry for your experiences bro. sadly, lgbtq members and far leftists have no idea what harassment is until they loosely experience it.

[@KilarahRH]

I worked in bars for a few years and I too used to get groped constantly by women, I can't say I was traumatized or anything but it's still not right, sadly most women (yes most) don't see men as capable of being on the receiving end of sexual harassment and men who speak out usually get mocked or dismissed off hand.

[@putaromason5234]

​@@KilarahRH hmm maybe cause straight men have assaulted them way more and it's funny cause ur talking about straight women. That's ya business for one and for two, u dont see lesbians out crying and moping on how much straight men have harassed, groped, violated, and robbed them of their lives. But when they do, where are ya? Where ya at? Nowhere. How about stop thinking about urself for once and go to therapy dude. You having the nerve to trauma dump and blame her for not considering possibly what u have gone through shows the true entitlement of u straight cis men. GO TO THERAPY.

[@Hadgerz]

You're figuring out how the 'everything but them evil straight males' '''community''' sees us.

[@JesseCasey-q6q]

"are they allowed, yes. Welcome? No." They have all the places as their safe space

[@atrax6519]

Exactly this goes both ways🙏

[@JesseCasey-q6q]

@@atrax6519 what do you mean by that

[@atrax6519]

@@JesseCasey-q6q All the other places are straight safe places and should be respected as such

[@wizofawesome]

- A white racist business owner after the Civil Rights Act of 1964

[@crypticcryptid4702]

Welp, guess I can't walk on the street or go to Uni then

[@JohnnyDoorknob]

This is probably the most terminally online thing I’ve seen

[@climaksy1659]

rare normal comment

[@cmenardmusic]

you dropped this 👑

[@paolocruz7917]

This Kiwi Girl is "terminally online" personified. You noticed there is not a video she blame or shit on "cishet men".

[@barefootbreezy6983]

Yea this is exactly what brain rot looks like after eating all the virtue signaling BS. Imagine me telling a lesbian women she cant come into my bar because its not a lesbian bar. The double standards for these people are insane.

[@wtfjackaboy]

As a trans man myself, I really don’t like the assumption that being profiled as a threat would give me gender euphoria and therefore cause me to react gently and politely. If someone tapped me on the shoulder and questioned what I was doing in a queer space, I wouldn’t be happy. I would probably also react in a “grumpy” manner, mostly because I really don’t like being touched unexpectedly, but also because I wouldn’t want to explain myself for just standing there and existing, which it sounds like that cishet man was doing. I have a lot of issues with the points you made in this video, but that one especially rubbed me up the wrong way. It reminded me of how TERFs claim that trans women enjoy being s*xually assaulted because it makes them feel like a “real” woman. Obviously, I’m not trying to conflate the two comparisons as equal, but insinuating that being treated in an antagonistic or defensive way would make a trans man feel good (especially when you yourself are not a trans man) is quite a disturbing take. I usually enjoy your content, and I agree with the points you make in other videos, but this one wasn’t it, I’m afraid. I really hope you take on board the feedback that people have been giving you, and understand that a lot of what you said is very harmful to not just your cishet viewers, but also your queer viewers.

[@motozappa225]

this video and people like her ain't it for us normal headed queers. Also props for your normal comments in this miasma of shit ones

[@digitalHistorian]

As a trans man who spent 20 years in the lesbian community before transitioning, I would never go into a lesbian bar unless invited. And if anyone asked me why I was there, I would happily out myself. I am who I am today because of the safety and family I found in the lesbian community. I will do whatever it takes to protect that safety for others even if that means removing myself physically from a place or situation to preserve it.

[@cb-akp]

this comment is so beautiful and heartening ❤ thanks for sharing. also always great to see a fellow historian in the wild lol

[@florida12341000]

holy shit this concept is insane. Imagine going to an establishment and then being told to leave because you have a penis or they assume you have a penis. If the owner said leave thats fine but if the people inside said to leave they can go fuck themselves

[@danielkim9997]

but he was invited....She literally said "our friend" when mentioning the guy, which would indicate that he's also friends with the lesbian. This is overly dramatic IMO. 🤣

[@cb-akp]

@@danielkim9997 frankly daniel, your opinion on lesbian issues isn’t particularly relevant.

[@danielkim9997]

@@cb-akp 😂 lesbians trying real hard to gatekeeping human decency in 2024. Trying real hard to get on the level of racists and Karen's. It's laughable.

[@ErisIsAnAbomination]

I hate how this still has to be an argument. I know this is probably going to sound like “gatekeeping” but we FIGHT for these spaces. We fight for the right to EXIST. A cishet man just strutting into a lesbian bar is a slap in the face to the constant uphill battle that queer women and femmes go through to have something as base-level as a safe place to go.

[@NoxBVansyn]

We fight for our right to party! I'm sorry I couldn't help but reference the song lol

[@RexytheRexy]

When we're talking about a safe space for marginalized people, those gates should be kept. End of story.

[@Spicyjalapeno4629]

Is it still a slap to the face if they are in a larger group and are invited to go, I think it’s weird for a cishet man to go by themselves fs but I don’t think it’s bad if it’s in a larger group

[@saccharay]

@@PlanetThrill i think you're missing the point. like kiwi said, there are barely any safe spaces for queer women. by being a cis-het man in a LESBIAN WOMEN'S space you are taking up the space that's NOT for you. cis het people have plenty of bars and queer people don't feel safe going to those places. The whole point is that its a LESBIAN bar for LESBIAN women. I dont think its gatekeeping because the place was literally designed specifically for queer women. Men being there kind of defeats the purpose of it being a queer women's bar.

[@halofornoobs93]

Get over yourself. Get out of the country if you think segregation is ok. You are un-American.

[@BeelzeBubblesTheBee]

Men? In my lesbian bar??

[@Nerobyrne]

apparently there were a lot of them there. Personally, as a man, I'd never go to a lesbian bar. But then, I barely go to ANY bar.

[@dolphinbanana3053]

It's more likely than you think

[@one-onessadhalf3393]

@dolphinbanana3053 Unfortunately

[@professorfoxtrot]

Lesbians should be tolerant of straight men identifying as lesbians

[@professorfoxtrot]

​@@dolphinbanana3053I'm coming in.

[@blobbb]

If its this big of a problem maybe the bouncers should be heavily filtering out dudes? Especially if this is the reaction. Asking someone "what are you doing here?" to some dude standing there with people is super confrontational, of course the response will be defensive regardless of the person's gender/sex/whatever.

[@blank7777]

I have gone to gay bars with friends without issue. I go to be supportive as well as protect them from people. Just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they won’t harm someone.

[@putaromason5234]

Do u just want to hear what u wanna hear? What indication saying that oh gay people could never, would never. Where??? Where is the correlation? Do u just want love sh**? Do u love acting like ur the hero or something? Could u not consider the thought of u bring really bigoted in this conversation? You're not helping nor fixing anything. But keep acting like u have the cape because I don't see it

[@aviendha1154]

The same thing goes for straight women in gay spaces. We get it you’re not getting hit on in gay bars, you’re also invading a space that’s not for you.

[@jasperjazzie]

yeah, i'm a bit torn bc if they're not bothering anyone and they feel safer there that's something, but like...they're still taking over a specifically queer space and it just feels really weird, like they feel like they're entitled to just go wherever they want even if it's not a place for them

[@aviendha1154]

@@jasperjazzie the main issue I have is that if you let enough straight women in for long enough eventually straight men will follow them to the bar. Also they may not be homophobic but the chances of them being transphobic are much higher. I’ve seen more than a few straight women be asked to leave because they were being transphobic and making us uncomfortable.

[@The_Ruf_Rud]

​@@aviendha1154yeah eventually everyone follows and it's an everyone bar. It's so gross haha

[@aaronzegas5270]

@@The_Ruf_Rud once the bachelorette parties show up, it's all over.

[@NoxBVansyn]

@@jasperjazzie for me personally, it says a lot when literally no one is comfortable going to bars where cishet men go.

[@bananewane1402]

It’s because we’re trying to keep lesbian bars safe. We don’t want to go to a lesbian bar and be ogled or hit on by straight men. And you can say “oh he’s being respectful he’s fine”, but if we could easily visually distinguish between predatory and non-predatory men there would be far fewer abusive relationships and sexual assaults. Your friend might actually be fine, but we don’t know that, we can’t tell that, and we don’t want that risk in our space.

[@zflw64]

But wouldn't you be ogled by other lsbians? They also could be abusers and or assault you as well, even if no men can in

[@ErutaniaRose]

Exactly.

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

Exactly.

[@zflw64]

I get your point but the logic of knowing who a predator isnt??? wouldn't the women in the lesbian be possibly predatory? So, you really aren't avoiding assault or abusive relationships?

[@ErutaniaRose]

The point is that you are avoiding it coming from men by being in a space without them. Obviously anyone can be an abuser, but it is way more statistically likely for a woman, femme, or AFAB person to be abused by a man. @@zflw64

[@elialexandra730]

I hate that marginalized groups aren't allowed to gate keep our cultures or simply just can't have our safe spaces without being expected to be inclusive towards the people that are the reason we need these spaces in the first place it's not fair how we're always expected to be polite and passive and if we stand our ground and set boundaries we're the ones being sensitive and discriminatory it's so frustrating

[@carnival_klownz]

Huh

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

Same thing happens to me as a woman with severe chronic illness. I'm expected to say/do what others want me to, even when it's against medical advice and my decisions and also conflicts with others opinions of what I should say/do. And people say it's the way I must behave to get the care I need and deserve. While everyone else gets to misbehave and say whatever they want without concern or apology. I don't tolerate it any more.

[@supercrazylegs1]

This exactly. The level of entitlement these straight people had is frustrating.

[@yourmomsmomsmomsmoms4420]

Exactly; I can’t understand how any cishet man would think he’s allowed or welcome into a LESBIAN BAR.

[@pandalorian5137]

The amount of comments i've seen from straight ppl like "so you're saying i should be banned from this place bc of my sexuality??" or "that's discrimination!" 💀

[@erickgutierrez2333]

Respectfully disagree here. As a gay man, I just want a space where we can all get along. I don't like idea of segregating ourselves when the whole point of the pride movement was to be accepted into wider society. If this man actually hit on the lesbians then by all means kick him out but assuming he will seems wrong. It's assuming this man is a predator or monster. Innocent until proven guilty? The argument that this person makes me uncomfortable because of the group they are a part of is the same argument conservatives use to discriminate against queer people.

[@sweetsour4375]

I'm queer, but I don't feel all that welcome in queer spaces because of the assumptions people make. I'm nonbinary, but often assumed to be a straight woman because I'm somewhat femme and have a boyfriend. I'm all for making some spaces that are more welcoming too. (Though I do understand the importance of queer-only safe spaces. Those have their time and place. Thought I should make that clear.) The bar in question though, is a lesbian bar they welcomes ALL queer people. So I also respectfully disagree with this video.

[@titandarknight2698]

Depends on the purpose. If its a gay club made to mingle and interact with other gay folks, whats the point in bringing in someone who isn't gay? Just call it a queer club at this point.

[@ShiitaKitsune64]

I agree with you, we really don't need anyone promoting segregation. I understand that there are people who have had very bad experiences with a certain other group of people (like how many woman have had bad experiences with men), but I don't understand why a bar of all places is supposed to be some kind of exclusive "safe space" for anyone, it isn't a closed therapy group run by licensed professionals or anything. Like if a bar owner knows they can't deny someone entry to their establishment on the basis of one's gender or sexuality (can only deny entry if the person is in fact a true nuisance or danger) then people are just going to have to accept that these spaces will never truly be exclusive. Now advertising your bar as a lesbian bar or whatever is fine and letting others know that you would like it to be as available to the lesbian population as possible because of the discrimination and harm lesbians have faced in non-lesbian bars is also fine, but people gotta understand that this isn't a legal right of the bar owners, it's just on the goodwill of the people in the community to respect their wishes. Now the cis het guy in the video did seem a bit snappy, and sure the cis het woman may really not understand the history of homophobia that has lead to the creation of queer bars and such, but they did nothing wrong, didn't say anything bad about queer people, didn't go to the bar to make any other patrons feel uncomfortable. The lesbian regular of the bar made several people feel uncomfortable with saying a cis het guy should not be there alone no matter what and so they responded in surprise and then left. In the end nothing happened, besides maybe a bit of ignorance and rudeness going around. Maybe the lesbian regular meant to explain more cordially why she was suspicious of him, because of the other men who would actually cause problems there, and this whole situation would have ended differently. But even though it ended on a sour note nothing bad happened so it's really a non-issue for everyone. And it's definitely not an excuse to hate on cis het people simply because of their gender and sexual identity that they have no choice in. Plus it feels very weird to me that one guy being in lesbian bar doing nothing wrong is somehow taking some crazy valuable space away from a lesbian?? Like lesbian bars are a privilege to go to, not some life-saving establishment that necessary for the survival of lesbians. Again this isn't a professionally run therapy group or something. Yes, if you are not the intended audience you should at least be aware of that and do your best to respect and understand why a lesbian bar exists in the first place, but to say just one cis het man existing in a lesbian bar for like an hour is somehow going to make one other lesbian who couldn't get in lose all that is precious to them is ridiculous. It's just a bar people. Maybe many people's most favorite bar, but still just a bar. Also queer does not automatically mean safe, just as cis het does not automatically mean unsafe, and just assuming someone is unsafe because of one's gender and sexuality is bigoted no matter who you are. Now I know I am very lucky to be a lesbian that really hasn't had bad experiences with any other people, cis het male or otherwise, but I don't think it makes it any less valid for me to say no one should discriminate against anyone, especially on things that a person has no choice over. Chill guys, the world should be safe for everyone no matter what. And now that I've spent way too long typing this response nobody is going to read it yay lol.

[@erickgutierrez2333]

@ShiitaKitsune64 I read it, and it was perfect. I appreciate your input because you made some great points I'll be using in the future.

[@ShiitaKitsune64]

@@erickgutierrez2333Thanks for your response! And I appreciate the compliment, I am often pretty internet shy so when I do eventually say something I am very happy and honored when someone else likes what I say. Hope you have a wonderful day :3

[@michellerhodes5477]

Back in the late 90s and early 2000s, I was invited into gay bars as a straight woman by my gay male friends. I would never go into gay spaces without being with a friend who invited me. Back then gay men were treated very badly. It was safer for my friends to go to their space and invite me than it was to go to a straight bar. I always had so much fun, was treated well, and never caused any trouble or anything like that. I would never. I also wasn't aggressively hit on by straight men which was a nice bonus. The rare times we did go to straight bars, my friends would willingly tell cishet men to leave me alone. We had more fun in their spaces because it was more relaxing for all of us.

[@TheRealBoyKuromi]

I don’t think the people mad abt assuming he was a cis man thought he could have been a trans man. I think they were think trans woman. Because trans men should not be in women’s spaces. Coming from a trans guy I legit hate whenever I go into the woman’s bathroom because my friends want me in there with them. I feel uncomfortable in there myself and I’m sure the women in there feel uncomfortable to even though I dress pretty fem.

[@jasperjazzie]

another trans guy here, i absolutely agree, and people who say transmascs should be in women's spaces just feels super iffy to me, especially if it's coming from people who aren't transmascs, like they don't view us as real men or something.

[@spntageous5249]

im transmasc (nb) and i honestly don't like going to womens spaces, often times the women are like "oh this space is open for everyone who's not a man so trans women and afab nonbinary people are okay" but like to me that's a bit condescending and i get dysphoria from such spaces so i dont go. Not to say these people are transphobic, I just dont want to be in an all female space where girlies are girlies, because I don't feel like my place is there.

[@brownlesbo]

​@@someonewithazeldaprofilephototrans men can't be lesbians tf yall literally regurgitating terf rhetoric

[@Michaelalovespandas]

I would find it weird to invite any guy into the women’s restroom with me. Like if you are a man, you see yourself as a man, and I see you as a man, it seems super awkward for both parties for you to be in a space exclusively for women. I can go to the bathroom without a friend there. I understand if you look feminine and wouldn’t feel safe in the men’s room. But I find it really weird to invite a dude into the women’s room just for fun. If I’m going to the bathroom, I don’t want a man there.

[@TheRealBoyKuromi]

@@Michaelalovespandas yea. I go into the men’s room all the time. It’s just it was my bday party and my friends were pressuring me to go in with them and I didn’t wanna make a scene. (There was no one else in there either so even tho I felt uncomfy there wasn’t anyone else there to also feel uncomfy).

[@madeline-7748]

As a transfem lesbian, thank you for phrasing your response in this video in a way which I didn’t find at all transmisogynist/fearmongering of sapphic transfems. 💜

[@cryptiecreep]

You're a lady. Not to mention how many cis men fetishize trans women as well, you deserve a place where you're not going to be fetishized.

[@madeline-7748]

@@revivir1938 Because far too often sapphic transfems who don’t “pass” for cis women will get thrown under the bus during efforts to keep cishet men out of queer (assumed cis/AFAB) women’s spaces. Including by queer cis women. Effectively “throwing the baby out with the bath water”.

[@justaperson4656]

Lesbian is lesbian and welcome in lesbian bars. Anatomy doesn't matter, if you're a lesbian that space was literally made for you

[@LilChuunosuke]

She's very good at keeping her language inclusive on this channel! Far more than the average person, she takes trans, enby, and ace people into consideration. ❤️

[@Val-ud9fn]

Did we watch the same video? Edit: just to clarify, at the end she says that trans men, non binary people and cis women need protection from gender violence. Listen to it again and tell me what it sounds like

[@The_Ruf_Rud]

My view on this is that it can be a very fetishized thing to be dating a lesbian/trying to win over a lesbian and it can make people very uncomfortable. This is supposed to be a safe space away from weirdos and it's letting in and bringing in what she views as a weirdo into the bar. It's eliminating the entire point of the bar. If one person is allowed in then more and more people will be allowed in and it will get weird for the women who aren't attracted to men.

[@halofornoobs93]

Segregation is either always ok or never ok. Pick one.

[@screentime6051]

No, it fucking isn’t

[@skylar5257]

@@screentime6051yes… it is…

[@bullgodjake]

Sometimes when I go to the not-gay bars, I have to share space with people I don’t like too. It’s called not being a child. Grow up.

[@wolf2966]

understood but to assume someone is a problem just because of who they are is just plain wrong until there's a problem you should treat those people as people the goal for lgbtq individuals is to be accepted in society not stay separated after this incident this just probably made this guy more prejudice against lgbtq individuals reacting in this manner just creates enemies

[@chloeeastwood6696]

Okay but how do they know he's straight just by looking at him? And once he was identified as having been invited by someone already in there, why wasn't that enough? And, for that matter, how can she know that the OP wasn't a queer woman? There are just too many holes in this story. That woman was rude.

[@IsisWard1]

I went to my towns gay bar recently and it was almost all straight couples, and the couple girls i tried talking to were also straight 😒

[@IsisWard1]

@@miro6017 The girls saying they were straight, the offense of the guys my friend tried talking to? Sure they couples could have been straight passing

[@user-xt4xu7mr1j]

Good! You sound gross to chat with. Less gay bars the better

[@iateabigmac6978]

Deal with it lmao, all of you need to grow up, boo hoo someone entered an establishment from wich they arent legally restricted and as such exerting his rights as a free man , this woman is such a hypocrite, yall dont want equality, you want supremacy and dominance, you are all for inclusivity and stuff until it's straight people same with jokes and free speach. Kiwi is making stuff up in the video just to portray a false image on the guy. If you genuenly believe a straight man would rather go to a lesbian bar to talk to girls rather than a classic bar you are insane.

[@bloodcottoncandy]

@@IsisWard1 With my phobia of cishet men I rarely go to queer spaces anymore because of this

[@MsCarringtonsYoutube]

Lmao

[@PGOuma]

Yeah, if that man was trans, he would immediately address it and not be so aggressive and defensive. I was lesbian before i came out as trans and i know how it feels to have a part of you fetishized by straight people, so if i was there, I'd immediately make it known that I'm trans and my reasons as to why I'm there, etc etc etc

[@eblake7495]

why are people making this assumption that all trans men would take this situation with grace?? id probably end up assuming she was asking why im there because i am trans. we need to stop this idea that trans individuals are so calm and collected at the idea of confrontation like this? how do i know if the woman asking me this isnt transphobic? maybe we should stop making assumptions based on appearance/identity

[@theresa5847]

Speak for yourself. A lot of trans peeps would definitely not out themselves just because they're in a safe space.

[@xdani_thethinkingneko]

So because of your personal experience, you can assume what every other man feels like? Please tell me how that makes sense.

[@motozappa225]

wooow these comments are crazy and yours too. the future won't be kind to your kind of rhetoric @PGOuma

[@mingisfixon6452]

I like that the comments r divided. I'm not sharing my stance, but it's refreshing to see people with their own opinions who aren't blindly agreeing or disagreeing with the KZbinr

[@justinwebber9968]

Responding negatively to being challenged is not a male trait it's a human trait. Preeching tolerance whilst being intolerant, should, if people are paying attention, show exactly the type of person you are.

[@Denis.Menace121]

Exactly. Something about this whole situation reminds of Jim Crow laws in the south which is strange coming from someone who preaches about being tolerant and welcoming and accepting to all

[@LookatDaddy]

I’m glad there are some level headed people in the comments

[@DHasty]

I've had many, many experiences being sexualized and fetishized by cishet men as someone who is bisexual but leans more toward attraction to women. I feel like there need to be bars that are just not open to cishet men at all, even though i know realistically that can't be enforced. I'd love the safety of a bar like that (obviously no bar is ever fully safe but statistically, the problem would be MUCH less extreme) A straight woman inviting a straight man to a lesbian bar is fuckin wild, gotta love that entitlement.

[@aaronzegas5270]

Like, what the hell was she thinking? Like, maybe, MAYBE if a straight guy is friends with a lesbian who specificially invites him because she knows he's cool and he doesn't act like a jackass and keeps a low profile, that'd be one thing. But a straight woman to invite some straight dude because reasons? Makes no sense to me.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

I mean, there are places that have specific gender only hours or days, usually women only, like gyms, or spas, or pools. Though I don't know how enforceable it really is if someone wanted to enter. Would depend on the laws I think. I know that the single woman only hour of a gym near me was cried over by so many gross guys who said the most disgusting things, proving why such an hour was necessary in the first place.

[@halofornoobs93]

Segregation is either always ok or never ok. Pick one.

[@AnnekeOosterink]

@halofornoobs93 so you don't think private events, or privacy in general, should exist.

[@elihem]

And how the fuck would you be able to tell if the person is a cishet man or not? Are you aware that some gay, bi or trans men can look like cishet men or they all are flamboyant in your head??

[@Miipmiip]

I remember my old (cishet male) teacher telling a story about how going to gay bars with his (gay) friend(s) was some of his most fun nights

[@putaromason5234]

Also kiwi im so glad u said that straight cis women shouldn't go to gay bars either. Which i really agree with. The amount of times gay men have been sexually harassed by straight women but i know alot dont say anything for the sake of protecting them but it should really only be a space for gay men and people. Thank you for saying that kiwi ❤

[@LFrost2378]

Neat! I’m first! I can see why they were uncomfortable with him in the bar. We live our allies but straight cishet people coming into queer spaces can be an issue and I can especially see why they were uncomfortable with a cishet man in a space meant for queer women. I’m honestly not a fan of cishet people coming into queer spaces.

[@icravedeath.1200]

Personally I'd be okay with it if they were friendly and not a dickhead but I guess I don't speak for everyone.

[@arklestudios]

The really depends on if they were invited or not. There's a huge difference between being asked in and barging in. Edit: To clarify, I mean invited by members of the queer community specifically.

[@LFrost2378]

@@arklestudiosagreed

[@LFrost2378]

@@icravedeath.1200I’m absolutely fine with it if their friendly and are invited but in this case I can see why a cishet guy being in that space is a problem regardless

[@SiRenfield]

@@arklestudiosYeah and where the discourse gets especially fucking ugly is when very on guard people start deciding who is and isn’t queer, like bisexual people in straight-passing relationships especially Update: To avoid further confusion this comment is about queer spaces in general, obviously the main point still stands

[@avien9068]

As a cishet male myself I 100% agree with this take. Its pretty simple that queer people need their own space and just let them be

[@professorfoxtrot]

"As a cishet male..." Lol. Too afraid to say, "As a man"

[@jayfalcon-rw3qc]

​@professorfoxtrot it's not his fault your vocabulary is smaller than your nuts

[@AmarisFrede]

@@professorfoxtrot trans and gay men are also men.

[@AmarisFrede]

Thanks for being an understanding ally!

[@alicebthegachaweirdo8378]

@@professorfoxtrotJust give up already and stop coming here.

[@Heartz4kets4eki]

The entitlement of cishet men is insane

[@aaronzegas5270]

And I love how in the original TikTok the woman made it out to be like he was just randomly shouted at by some random woman when it was anything but.

[@heidihansen5793]

@@aaronzegas5270 right! he was blocking the bathrooms to start and then was grumpy when asked to move and then responded like that....talk about lying to make herself sound more justified in thinking that was ok.

[@samihaislam9676]

cishet woman as well

[@user-xt4xu7mr1j]

We own your bars

[@guyjackson1261]

The entitlement of people thinking they can gatekeep a public bar. Newsflash, gong into a public space you are allowed to be in is not entitlement, thinking you have the right as a patron to police said space is

[@Personajeoriginal]

About the comment on straight women on gay bars, I don't know if they also do this in the US, but here in Mexico is very common that we made spaces and events exclusively for women where men are not legally allowed to get in. We do this mostly to avoid sexual harassment, of course there is a whole debate around it, and it's awful that we had to get to that extreme just to be safe, but personally I think it is a good temporary solution to that problem.

[@localerik]

isnt that the same as jim crow laws and segregation

[@Cashhhhew]

@@localerik not at all.

[@localerik]

@@Cashhhhew how is it not the same? ur dividing and alienating people on smth that they cannot control, which calls back to legit segregation.

[@Cashhhhew]

@@localerik by having ONE space that’s protected for women? Get over yourself. Having been SAd at a club it would be nice to have a space like this. There are men and women only gyms too. It’s not a f*cking systemic order, it’s a private business.

[@localerik]

@@Cashhhhew While I am sorry for how some men have treated you in the past, it most definitely does not justify you having prejudice as an adult towards all men for that experience. Also, did you not watch the video? There were gay men in the bar too, so is it really trying to be a space for woman or just an area to justify the prejudice on straight men by attendees. It isn’t similar to the Jim Crow laws through systemic oppression of course, but the basic separation of groups of people definitely **is**. This is the exact opposite of what all civil rights leaders would have wanted. Also pretty authoritarian and anti-liberal.

[@enkelikarkki]

I did not feel any kind on entitlement or aggression from the guy?? where did that assumption come from

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

form BS that what no cap

[@motozappa225]

profiling, the same thing we queer people where fighting for in the first place. Also irrational fear for the outgroup... reminding me of something...

[@Isabella_lovely]

Now if I saw someone that passes as a man, I would avoid being mean about it because for all I know, they could be a non passing trans person, and as a trans girl, I get that. It's kinda why I only go with my cis girlfriend XD

[@Moonstruck_Arrow]

I agree that you don’t want to be mean about it, but in this case it seems like the woman who called out the guy at the bar wasn’t being rude at all. She just asked if he was there with anyone, which is perfectly reasonable.

[@Val-ud9fn]

If you are a trans woman, please watch the video again and watch the language used in it very carefully. I can not be the only one noticing the very specific language she uses in the video.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@Val-ud9fn Kiwi's not a GC, but I understand how the points raised on this topic are uncomfortably close to those used by GCs in their attempts to exclude and discriminate against trans women. Kiwi's not that person, tho.

[@theresa5847]

​@@Val-ud9fncould you explain more, I didn't catch that part?

[@Val-ud9fn]

@@theresa5847 This is a video about "excluding men from women's spaces" that fails to even mention trans women. Considering this is a topic often weaponized against trans women, not only does she not acknowledge this, but uses specific language to erase trans women from the discussion altogether. Even when saying that certain genders should be protected from gendered violence she specifically avoided saying trans women (She says something like "trans men, non binary people and [cis] women"). She was more than willing to talk about trans men, though. In what worldview does it make more sense to discuss trans men than trans women on this topic? I don't think it was necessarily intended or malicious but the implication is certainly there.

[@kiku-goldenflower7731]

Is there any bars or clubs for ace people. Cos that would be awesome. At the moment, my best bet would be the gay bar cos I feel "no thanks I'm ace" would actually be listened to more often there.

[@VideosForYou90]

Exactly, I would love to have a club/bar for ace people! I didn't feel safe or comfortable when I went out with my friends to normal clubs..

[@noaccount2494]

I was just thinking about how an Ace/Aro club would be so dope, especially if it offered mocktails as well as booze without making it weird

[@kiku-goldenflower7731]

@noaccount2494 yassss, I'm all for the mock tails. Of course, there would need to be cake and garlic bread available, and the dance floor should be in the shape of Denmark so we can concur it.

[@kiku-goldenflower7731]

@VideosForYou90 Not feeling safe if one of the reasons I don't drink alcohol when I'm out.

[@halofornoobs93]

ace? did we invent a new term? and people have the audacity to cry when people don't care to memorize every new thing you invent.

[@AryanneRay]

The problem is that the woman assumed the guy was straight when there's no way to know he was, she assumed by his appearance.

[@cb-akp]

there are only a two dozen lesbian bars in that WHOLE COUNTRY. let that sink in. we have so few spaces catered to us. he was taking up space in one of the only safe spaces for lesbians specifically. there’s no reason for a cishet man to be at a lesbian bar. end of.

[@stylacc]

​@OfficerZ637 the real question is "did anyone ask?"

[@ct6852]

People interact with others for a whole slew of reasons. Not just sex. Friendship, companionship, business, family matters, information sharing, emotional support, fun, planning, etc etc etc. Jim Crow laws fell for a lot of important reasons. I understand your point. But dividing everyone further and further is so much more toxic than you think.

[@notamurderer6226]

If it’s public then you can’t discriminate

[@cb-akp]

@@ct6852 comparing lesbian bars to jim crow era segregation is so asinine it's kind of funny. jim crow laws were put in place by former slaveholding states to uphold and reify white supremacy and to further the disenfranchisement and oppression of black people. lesbians don't like men in their bars (something they can’t even legally enforce), because lesbians want a space where we can exist among our peers, flirt w women without having to worry about orientation, and, crucially, do those things without worrying about men harassing us, which happens **constantly** in straight bars. lesbians do not have any power over cishet men the way white lawmakers had over black people. we have zero systemic influence or control over your rights and freedoms. on the contrary, cishet men have been oppressing us (through legislation and otherwise) since time immemorial. i could keep going but i think i've made my point. this comparison is patently ridiculous. pls spare me.

[@LookatDaddy]

Lesbian bars fail because even lesbians don’t go to the bars

[@kelsynicole9135]

I am a cis woman who is pan/bi and I am a huge drag fan, I go to my local gay bars with my lesbian sister all the time to support my local drag queens! I feel so welcomed in these spaces, I am always sure to tip all the queens and servers/bartenders! The real problem is when I see people come to the show and don’t tip or cheer on the queens, like why are you even there?

[@halofornoobs93]

Pan and bi are the same thing. You either like wangs, cooches, or both. That's it.

[@blakedawson944]

As a nonbinary person in a relationship that people assume is a straight relationship, if anyone ever asked my partner and I (he is a cis man, but we are both queer) why we were in a queer space, we would not react with hostility. Although it may make me slightly dysphoric because I know people see me as a girl even though I'm not, I understand not wanting cishet people in queer spaces. I'd probably just respond with "oh we're both queer and just looking for a queer space" and continue with our night. I personally probably wouldn't confront a seemingly cishet person myself in a queer space (unless they were being a problem) but I understand why others do

[@sub-harmonik]

if you are presenting how you want then you're probably a girl, trans or not.

[@halofornoobs93]

If you look like a woman and dress like a woman, people will see you as that and it isn't their job to not do so. It is a straight relationship by definition regardless of your pronouns.

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

If you were in a queer bar/club that wouldn't be a problem at all, but you are not allowed to bring a man (no matter if queer or not) to a lesbian bar/club, this is an exclusive female only queer safe space.

[@blakedawson944]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess oh yeah I def wouldn't bring a man to a female specific space. My partner and I have gone to queer bars together before, but just like, general queer bars, not gender specific

[@Part_Time_Catboy]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess The bar says they're for everyone lmao

[@pebblul]

We as queer people but also with people of any marginalized group have always had to fight for the few limited spaces we get. It's should be simple decency that people who aren't part of the group in question do not invade these spaces, and that if they are invited to them, they are guests who need to respect the rules (spoken or implied) and culture of the space. It really shouldn't be a big ask.

[@HunterLvyiXIII]

It's a big ask, it's common decency; these ones are just too out of it and entitled to care

[@wizofawesome]

So you want segregation? Is that what you're getting at?

[@halofornoobs93]

If one group can segregate, ALL groups should be able to segregate. No one gets special privileges.

[@caffetiel]

@@halofornoobs93 you people already discriminate. Why are you complaining anyway when you have a whole-ass swath of the US making itself a straights-only bar?

[@Vaguer_Weevil]

​@@caffetiel "You people already discriminate" is a pretty intolerant thing to say. Who are the "you people" you're referring to? Also regular bars aren't "straights-only", I've met people of all kinds at regular bars. Nobody is stopping you.

[@AmonTheWitch]

i don't think him meeting with their mutual friend in the bar was wrong but the rest of their actions certainly was, could've avoided all of the bs by just accepting he wouldn't be welcomed if he came alone into a lesbian bar.

[@aaronzegas5270]

Exactly. Like, I don't think anything would have happened if he hadn't acted like an ass. Like, I'm a cis guy (not 100% straight, though most of my relationships have been) and I've been invited into lesbian spaces a few times and nothing happened because I didn't act like a dumbass.

[@JDM-is-my-name]

I think it's also a bit about the cishet man was "a friend of a friend", so he was already a 3rd party. If a lesbian had invited him in, I think it'd have been more OK, because then it's not a straight woman inviting a straight man into a lesbian space. Just like mentioned in the video :) Also, couldn't they have said hi outside? Would it be that hard to quickly stick her head out the door to say hi before he left? It's not her bar, she can stick her head out?

[@Zectifin]

yeah. if the lesbian friends who invited him wanted to start something, thats their thing. dude should have just shut up and been as nice as possible. I have several lesbian friends and if they invited me to a lesbian space I would be on my best behavior, because I know I'm kind of intruding. but also eww bars. I'd rather stay at home with my cats.

[@atrax6519]

Ik same thing gay men in straight bars

[@twiggledowntown3564]

Except he didn't act like an ass. You kinda overreacted.​@@aaronzegas5270

[@NK-tw2go]

It’s not even a lesbian bar, it’s a queer bar. Let the dude live

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

Wrong, it is one of the few remaining lesbian bars, so for queer females only.

[@cliftonguyette2498]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess wrong, it is not a lesbian only bar. It is a bar for everyone.

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

sounds about right son no cap keep up the good work bro lets be gone Misandrists waman's lesbian's at best lets keep out Misandrists @@cliftonguyette2498

[@caffetiel]

Let no dudes abide

[@CopycatYu-Gi-OhCard]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess "Cubbyhole aims to maintain a safe space for all. No bigotry, racism, transphobia, or discrimination of any kind will be tolerated. We rely on all of our patrons to uphold a safe space for all. Staff members are available to assist if ever necessary." - The bar's literal website (that anybody can access) Nowhere in that statement did it say the bar was "for queer females only." Get a grip man.

[@pandalorian5137]

Entitlement is the keyword. I had a tiktok on my fyp where a straight woman said "we straight women like going to gay bars bc it's a safe space for us where we don't get hit on by men and can dance in peace"- could cry how she totally missed the irony. and sooo many straight women commented "this!! Been doing this since the 80s" as if this is a hot take. And then had a tiktok with gay guys who got interviewed about straight women in gay bars and all of them said "usually it's fine when they come to dance, but oftentimes where there's a straight woman there's a straight man (usually boyfriend) following her and starting fights" 😭

[@notamurderer6226]

Ok cool segregation it is

[@mrman-yj3bn]

"its ok to ask him because he is cis". Oh... But you said "she didn't assume he was cis, that's why she asked him" Which is it? Because you clearely lied about 1 of them lol.

[@morgenmuffel5747]

Please stop acting like you speak for everyone in the queer community because you certainly don’t

[@jaycollins2036]

Thank you. As a bisexual person, I found my experiences in the open environment of a gay bar really helped reprogram my mind toward the acceptance of others and acceptance of that part of myself. Watching progressive people take up these bigoted stances online is disheartening, to say the least.

[@donalvarez4006]

Neither do you. She's clearly just giving her two cents on the situation

[@User-wu7nn]

@@donalvarez4006her two cents are shit tbh, I think this content creator needs to look up the word entitlement bc she obviously doesn’t know what it means

[@morgenmuffel5747]

@@donalvarez4006Never said I did. And yes, she repeatedly used the word “we” in a highly sweeping fashion while she dictated what “we” as the queer community collectively want, expect, need, etc. Her intolerance, arrogance, and absolutism is both hypocritical and harmful

[@bullgodjake]

@@donalvarez4006 - Her two cents aren’t worth a penny.

[@Honeybunny_bun]

That lady definitely shouldn't have confronted him, especially since you can't tell when someone is cishet by appearance (unless ofc you're going by sterotypes) Edit: wasn't really a confrontation, honestly i just wouldn't have talked to him 😭 but i can appreciate her

[@ramenaddict1676]

the timing is funny cuz my trans lesbian told me she was considering going to cubbyhole and thats when i first learned of that bar's existence. then you uploaded this.

[@OhGeeWillickersMister]

Years ago I went to a gay nightclub with some of my gay friends and girl friends, and a random straight guy started groping me on the dance floor. It was disgusting. This has happened at straight clubs too, and I know most straight guys aren't acting like this, but it was a disappointment in a gay male space to have to deal with that. Like, where is safe for a girl to dance without perverts trying to stick their hands in her clothing? Anywhere? At a Disney sing a long at noon in broad daylight?!? I don't even want to look up if that ever happened there, sigh

[@bulelwashezi4540]

That accidental slip when she goes from, "This one chick walked up and said" to "had never experienced that like being yelled at". She wanted to send pitchforks and flame torches to this lesbian bar. She was trying so hard to portray this like they were genuinely attacked but forgets that just two seconds earlier she let us know it was a very calm and valid confrontation. I absolutely HATE people like her.

[@ambergalaxy25]

I’ve gone to the one lesbian bar in Washington many times (I’m friends with the bouncer as well so he sometimes lets me just come in to talk when I’m cold outside). I’ve had one man say I’m beautiful and then when I don’t thank him, he yells it’s just a compliment! Like I don’t mind men coming in with sapphics for the dancing part. But do not hit on the sapphics there. You can drink and dance. I’ve been to a few of the gay clubs as well, just to drink and dance with my friends (or play pool bc I will always look for a pool table). If someone feels uncomfortable with men there, I can totally understand that. As well as annoyed for taking up space. There is very often a line on weekend nights, so I can get that.

[@The_Ruf_Rud]

Right?! I don't really want a compliment from a random man especially if he's going to get pissed at me for not thanking him. You can't complement someone and then get mad at them for not thanking you lmaooo 😭💀

[@screentime6051]

Why is receiving a compliment such a bad thing in your community? Frankly, I’d be flattered

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

@@screentime6051 It depends from whom the compliment comes. If it is from a girl or woman there is no problem, as queer girls and women don't want to flirt with boys/men in queer bars, especially not in lesbian bars! 💀

[@bullgodjake]

@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess - I think I finally understand why you people are all okay with wildly different pronouns. Because apparently you’re all mind-readers.

[@simonsays7578]

​@@bullgodjakeShit, if being gay makes me Professor Charles Xavier I may as well switch teams

[@luceh1000]

So heterosexual women can’t go to lesbian bars even if they feel unsafe in other bars and ‘that’s sucks but sorry no’?? But trans men CAN come to lesbian bars BECAUSE they feel unsafe in other bars??

[@Gh0stsh4rk_]

Definitely a little wary of policing gender within queer spaces as a trans person because of my own fears about going to a gay bar early in my transition, however the woman in this situation who “confronted” (barely) the guy did so with far more respect than he ended up deserving and queer spaces should absolutely remain full of queer people

[@eblake7495]

bro we dont even know how he reacted

[@Gh0stsh4rk_]

@@eblake7495it’s literally covered in the video how he reacted ??

[@Dinnyeify]

on assuming it's a cishet man: it could also be a trans woman who just doesn't pass. the part about responding to the "what are you doing here" question respectfully still stands tho

[@Luna-rs6rs]

I am all on board with the "no cis het men in lesbian bars", or at least not without invitation by another queer person.. but what makes me wonder, how obviously straight must he have appeard, if already by entry he was called out on this fact? o.o

[@LookatDaddy]

I thought myself the woman whom approached him was being very bigoted assuming his gender and sexuality. I was unaware clothing dictates such things

[@wen_and_only]

Trans guy here and I would absolutely understand if confronted in a lesbian bar, Savannah is absolutely right. If I passed as a cis guy and wasn’t harassed in regular non-queer spaces, I probably wouldn’t be in that bar either bc I would not want to make queer women uncomfortable

[@LadyNiril]

Dear QueerKiwi, as a queer woman I am very disappointed by your reaction here. The woman was not entitled at all, was genuinely asking and describing the situation. We queer people should not assume people's sexuality based on their looks. Period.

[@italk2much]

not cishet but i’m a boy so.. guys pls😭 It’s a LESBIAN bar. For NONMEN who like NONMEN. just.. stay outa there😭😭

[@HardReadSerRose]

From what I could tell, he was going to see a female friend. I don't see what's the problem if he was minding his business otherwise.

[@ratgurl1]

@@HardReadSerRosethe problem is that it’s an affinity space for a particularly vulnerable group. a lot of queer women (including me) are v uncomfortable with that so obviously there’s a problem and it’s not for you to decide

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

​@@HardReadSerRose If you'd watched and listened to the video you'd know that he wasn't minding his own business. He was aggressive and so were his female friends.

[@HardReadSerRose]

@MagnoliaPantherWoman how was he aggressive? He was with his friends and got asked a question, then answered.

[@Lavendercat7]

It’s important to remember that not all lesbians are women.

[@samredmond728]

Hey Queer Kiwi! I really enjoy your content, but this take makes me really sad. I would say around 90% of my friend group is gay and/or trans and I have other gay family members. Since covid I haven't really gone out at all, but before hand I would usually go to hang out with them at gay bars. As a cis het guy my intention is never to make people uncomfortable I just want to hang out in a place where my friends are comfortable. Some of my friends and family just don't feel comfortable at straight bars as I'm sure you can understand. This makes me feel like I can't be with my friends in spaces they feel comfortable. I've never had any issues with anyone at any of the gay bars I've been at in terms of I've never been approached by anyone in this way but I have no clue how my presence may have affected everyone there. I want to be the best ally I can be, especially now, but how can I do that if I can't be with my friends and family in public places that they want to be in without making other people in those spaces uncomfortable?

[@finnlymore3110]

Hey, trans guy here: I wanted to start by saying I love your videos, but I do not like the take you have on trans men. Just because we are trans does not mean we are passive or kinder, trans or not, anyone can be a dick. And not all, but many trans men and trans masc people I know do not like being in women’s spaces, I myself want to be treated like any other man and not treated differently because I’m trans.

[@ToastKnight_]

All the other valid points aside cause that's the boring part. Assuming someone is straight because they aren't dressed in a super flamboyant way. Kinda cringe. (Even though that's not what happened here.)

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

Men in general shouldn't be in a LESBIAN bar, no matter if queer or not! It is a exclusive female only queer location!

[@Aloewaves]

@@someonewithazeldaprofilephoto Because he is a cis guy you... assume he was doing that? What's wrong with you, nobody ever said that and it seems to everyone that the woman to came up to him was an aggressor I'm black and can make this claim but this random profiling is so weird and is so harmful lol

[@thatonebab7351]

Hi! I see a lot of transmascs in the comments saying they aren't comfortable in women's spaces, or lesbian spaces. That's valid, but I'm one of the (nonbinary) trans boys that prefers them. I would rather be around more queer women and trans people than cis men, and trying to find spaces without cis men is utter hell mode. I have a way easier time meshing with literally anyone else because cis men still treat me awfully the moment they find out I'm trans, other trans people and queer women are way more chill in my experience. I used to be in the opposite boat where I didn't want to be in lesbian spaces for fear of being mistaken as a woman and misgendered, nor be in relationships with lesbians because I felt they would only want that because they would see me as just a woman. I was mistaken, and it took getting on testosterone and getting way more comfortable in my gender to get that and have those positive experiences in lesbian spaces. I just wanted to put in my two cents since I saw Kiwi getting steamrolled in the comments for "speaking over trans experiences" when her description fits mine! Nothing is black and white, folks. We all have different experiences.

[@GloomyFish]

when she compared it to her experience in a gay bar for men it's like... obviously it's going to be different. Women tend to be treated differently, how doesn't she understand that?

[@AW-EV-and-FTM]

Couldn’t they have said ‘hi’ outside? I feel like that is a reasonable and safe request

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

That's what I was thinking too.

[@Morepanthers]

At any bar, if a friend wasn't staying why would they come in? Didn't seem like he knew anyone else there. I'd just run to meet him in the parking lot

[@tuffy135ify]

​@@MorepanthersThat's an easy answer. The people he's meeting are drinking. You don't just walk away from your drink/seat if you are already settled in at a bar. You can't take your drink outside. But someone can pop in, say hi, and leave. I've done it. Not at a gay bar or lesbian bar. They were general admittance bars, I guess.

[@inexena]

Wait, isn’t the point of inclusivity having everyone have fun together with no prejudice or assumptions about their sexuality/gender? I’m genuinely having a hard time understanding the point here. Most friends groups would probably go out to party together, and isn’t it a good thing that this friend group happens to be very diverse? If the dude was just standing there doing nothing, why was he questioned for being there? Like, I get if he was being disruptive or hitting on the girls, but he was just standing there?? Isn’t this literal discrimination? The very thing that we’re trying to eradicate? Idk man. As a Pan woman, I find this kind of reasoning to be very backwards.

[@badaoe3stratsonly130]

The issue is that the bro was standing in front of the bathroom and blocking it. Which is a dick move. Even if he was a dude at a straight club, that behavior still would tick people off. Like if you're standing in line to use the bathroom then thats fine dude. But if you're blocking it then get ready to move, or be ready to have somebody get in your face. The only difference between him doing that in a lesbian bar, and doing that in a straight bar. Is that if he tried to get uppity in the club then he would have left their with a few less teeth. Bro was lucky that he got off with getting roasted on tik tok.

[@Cashhhhew]

This is so harmful as someone that actually works for one of the very rare lesbian bars. We want everyone. And your take on trans men essentially having to out themselves to be welcomed is disgusting. Do not speak for my industry. This mentality is why we don’t have more sapphic bars.

[@exiledkenkaneki701]

You are so real for this I'm a straight non conservative guy who's chill with three sexuality things but kiwi legit just impaled herself with the logic here, lefitst creators have become painful to watch

[@theresa5847]

Expecting people to out themselves just because they're interacting with another queer person 🤢

[@Cashhhhew]

@@theresa5847 exactly. That doesn’t make it automatically safe. There are a lot of TERFs in the community (unfortunately). We could and would never implement a system like this for the safety of our (welcomed) patrons.

[@PinoccThePiccolo]

I’m glad to see it’s not just me thinking this way, I’m a trans guy and dont know much about lesbian spaces, but this video made me feel rather icky.

[@Cashhhhew]

@@PinoccThePiccolo I promise you will never ever be asked to do so at one of these spaces. If you are that is beyond scary and wrong. You are more than welcome, no questions asked!

[@heidihansen5793]

the thing that gets me too is that she talked to him originally because he was blocking the way into the bathroom and she was asking him to move. SO like behaving in a "I'm taking up space as stereotypically priviledged people do, grumpy when asked to move, and then angry cis man when asked why I was there in the first place."

[@Theatricsanddramatics]

As a lesbian I think invited men are more than perfectly fine to be there. As long as they've been invited and they aren't harassing women, they're good!! The only problem is when they hit on girls or fetishize lesbianism while there. But if they're just chilling, who cares? I don't. Maybe he's just there to make friends. Like. Maybe some men just want to be friends with people they know won't hit on them. I'm always looking for new friends, if I saw a dude at a gay bar that was like "hey im not looking for a relationship/im already in one, but i do want a buddy, wanna be friends?" hell yeah dude, sounds fun! You dont know why theyre there. Until they bother people, you cannot and should not ask them to leave.

[@GruulAnarch]

I've heard of cishet men pretending to be trans lesbians in order to go into lesbian bars and hit on women. I thought that this video may be something along those lines, but at least it wasn't that bad. As a pre-transition transbian myself, it makes my blood absolutely boil to hear about stuff like that.

[@professorfoxtrot]

This is an amazing idea. I'm going to go to a lesbian bar next time

[@roxassora2706]

​@@professorfoxtrotHe says as he accidentally drives into a gay bar.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

I feel you. This is a trans-positive channel, tho.

[@professorfoxtrot]

@@roxassora2706 I will rescue these women from their daddy issues

[@roxassora2706]

@@professorfoxtrot What daddy issues? By that logic, straight men have daddy issues.

[@woobiefuntime]

You are so wrong. I don't think he's coming there to pick up lesbians .

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

I agree no cap

[@Imjustkendall]

Bro sometimes it dose happen like wdym- some gross men actually do go in lesbian bars just to hit on girls

[@LookatDaddy]

@@Imjustkendall a minority of men would do this type of thing. It is not the norm.

[@itz_endking]

​@@Imjustkendall but that's clearly not what happened here.

[@wolliw-em5mc]

@@Imjustkendallyeaaaa.. unicorn hunters and fake "trans women"

[@SyntaxError3145]

I'm a cishet man and the salon I go to because my friend who does my hair works there has evolved into a very queer/witchy oriented space and even though I've been going since the place originally opened and I have an appointment to be there I worry that my presence might make someone else less comfortable. It astounds me that people are so unempathetic that they can't consider the people around them.

[@liamodonovan6610]

Of course a cis straigt male has absolutely no need to go to a lesbian bar love your videos they are always interesting love you're channel

[@halofornoobs93]

Can gay people stay out of our sports bars then?

[@rheathesaturnmoon9124]

How do people not realize that it’s called a lesbian bar for a reason.

[@halofornoobs93]

Can we have straight bars and white bars too?

[@sweetsour4375]

Cubbyhole NY is a lesbian bar that welcomes _all_ queer people, including men and people that look like men.

[@user-xt4xu7mr1j]

Did the…bar kick him out? This is so dumb

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

If there did that ngl I agree no cap it is dumb @@user-xt4xu7mr1j

[@titandarknight2698]

@@halofornoobs93 You can but you have to look at history. Why are there black only scholarships, why are there gay bars? Well thats because historically, men and white people have been invited everywhere. Theres less lesbian bars then regular ones. They already exist. Whats the point of encroaching on a historically marginalized group? Are there no other bars for straight men. Do they not exist?

[@pickledgingergaming8963]

I used to live in an area with zero gay bars. My ex and I were in one that we frequented and she was like, “babe, we need to go, like right now.” And I was like um, ok. So we left. While walking home I was like, so why were you so insistent that we leave? So there was this guy there, I saw him because he was staying close to where we were but not saying anything to us. We were holding hands, and being cuddly, no kissing or anything, but this dude was glaring at us, like he saw our hands and was just pissed. I was drunk so I didn’t notice, but he made her feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe. So we left before he could do something or say something. Being gay in straight spaces is not the best. I’ve been given death glares when I didn’t pass as well. Like when I was doing my niece’s senior pictures. I was in a park. Why that man decided that he had to glare at me like I was kicking puppies makes zero sense to me. But yeah, cis het men in queer spaces is not ok. The last thing I want is to be enjoying my drink and trying to find a lady and have to worry about getting hit on by some man that shouldn’t be there in the first place.

[@Rainbow_Warrior_Princess]

That is why we need much more lesbian bars/clubs where no boys/men are allowed, so that these exclsuive female only queer locations are _really_ safe spaces for girls and women.

[@Macca-95]

Maybe you should look in a mirror and realise that you're the lesbian version of that man in a bar glaring at somebody because of their sexuality.

[@KTSN-A]

This is why I don't go to queer spaces. I know that even though I've been on estrogen for two years I don't "pass", big issue with that word since I'm non-binary, I get looks and even get told that I look good for a guy. I got numb to it, but it feels like even though I should feel safer in queer spaces I'm an outsider, a threat to them so I just don't go. Been invited to a queer bar by a lesbian couple I'm friends with and I just flat out turn down the offer. Even when my sister and her wife offer to take me out to a spot I just say "no thanks" and move on since I don't want to take up a space in such a sacred place. I'll sit here in cyberspace where I'm not intruding and making others uncomfortable.

[@Scatscar1985]

Why would cishet guys go a LESBIAN bar to try and pick up women?!

[@rachaelmarks2170]

Entitlement and fetishization

[@kelseydeboer1136]

The "challenge" . Also guys go to gay bars to hit on the straight girls who are trying to avoid them soo 🥴

[@audreydoyle5268]

Ego

[@Morgan_le_they]

1) the challenge. A lot of cishet guys still think that lesbians just need to find the “right guy” 2) they know bi and and pan women are a thing, and think it’s worth taking their chances

[@aaronzegas5270]

I mean, I think most guys who'd do something like that don't literally expect to get a date, no more than guys yelling "nice legs, sweetheart!" on the street expect to. But they do like the reactions they get, by which I mean disgust and violation.

[@davidchess1985]

As a straight-passing cis man, I agree 100%; she was totally out of line, and his obnoxious behavior was a perfect illustration of why her feeling that "oh, he's okay he's my friend" can't be trusted. The entitlement is painful to see.

[@tamsynfox]

went to a gay club in brighton for a friends birthday and started to chatting to a group of all cis het men who were saying they idolise andrew tate. we told security and they got kicked out, that place doesn’t let in group of straight men anymore it’s lovely.

[@CopycatYu-Gi-OhCard]

So basically you ratted out a group of people who were doing nothing wrong because they said something you didn't like and got them kicked out instead of just not talking them anymore? Well aren't you a great person for that one....

[@Macca-95]

I look forward to the bar not existing after it gets sued to oblivion.

[@wizofawesome]

It's honestly disheartening to see this type of mentality be echoed by queer people especially considering how it has been used to justify segregation. Queer spaces are not supposed to be these reserved or restricted places, they're supposed to be a stepping stone for equality. They exist as a response to a broadly hostile society we have lived in, not as a end goal. The goal here should be to have spaces where EVERYONE can coexist and not have to worry about being discriminated against. Yes, I'm sure there are countless examples of straight men with bad intentions entering lesbian spaces HOWEVER that reality should not justify a sense of "Oh you're one of THEM, aren't you? Why are you even here with? Your kind is not welcomed here". At no point did this man do anything but exist. He didn't approach any women with sexual intent, he didn't invalidate anyone for their sexuality or gender, he just popped in to say hi, which btw idk about you but stopping by to say hi is usually a 5+ minute interaction, depending on the person. If you or anyone else genuinely wants to make the argument that straight cishet men should not be allowed in queer spaces solely based off their gender/sexuality or off of the actions of others in said group, I genuinely suggest you pick up a history book and reread the missions set by queer and colored people who fought and continue to fight for social equality. Random points that didn't fit in the above statement: 1. At no point did either of these women in the tiktoks mention that there was a line to enter the bar or that this straight man way infact "taking up" a spot for a queer person. 2. All parties involved are guests of the business, not the patrons. 3. 6:32 "Legally you cannot deny them entry" I wonder why a law like that would be put in place hmmm. 4. If you as an individual are this bothered by the existence of a straight man, I recommend you seek help. Just like how homophobes and racists should seek help. Judging an entire group of people based off of the actions of some in said group is extremely damaging and problematic. point. blank. period. 5. I think it's fully understandable to react the way the 3 did to her "are you even here with anyone" statement. That is a confrontational thing to say to someone especially if you aren't even in a position of power to do something about it like an owner/workers would.

[@b1rito]

If you want to keep a Lesbian/Gay bar exclusively for that group, hire a bouncer. You can’t harass people like that. So much for DEI, I guess love and acceptance goes out the window when the roles are reversed. If someone isnt being a problem then they should be allowed to stay

[@caffetiel]

The roles aren't reversed unless yall want to be both outnumbered by us and kept out of power entirely. Maybe spend a few centuries with your fashions being explicitly illegal. Maybe if there was one straight bar in the state and all the other ones super gay it'd be fine to be exclusive. Given that that won't ever be the case, though,

[@b1rito]

@@caffetiel Very clearly the roles are reversed. Because someone is not homosexual, they are being told they cannot enter a space. Its okay in that situation but take any regular bar and slap a sign saying no homosexuals allowed this is a straight space its a problem. Both are wrong its called segregation. Since when was homosexuality illegal and a criminable offence in the US? You are not living in Palestine or Iraq lol.

[@titandarknight2698]

Then why call it a gay club? Why not queer, if letting in anybody at that point.

[@Sa_mageste_le_roi]

Because when you go a straight bar and hit on someone you like, you are not scared for your safety but queer people in straight spaces are almost always scared for their safety

[@Macca-95]

@@caffetiel You're a male who is attracted to females.

[@kickyourhead1910]

You could also argue that the whole "flamboyant gay men" thing is also an assumption on her part. Like I can also see queer men being invited but I also wouldn't be surprised if maybe some of those people were trans women. Straight people are oblivious like that.

[@ribbit1208]

Nah bc he was INVITED let the man meet his friends in peace 😅

[@julianlaresch6266]

This might be controvertial but i dont think cis/het male presenting individuals should be outright excluded from a woman centered space soley based on appearances. This is excluding non binary masc presenting people. I can understand not wanting cis het male IDENTFYING people to be in the space. As a trans man i know i have no right to be present in a woman centered space, but i also feel excluded from conversations about things like.. experiencing society as an Assigned Woman. Physical symptoms associated with a uterus. Etc. My experience might make me prejudiced on this topic but if you get notbing else from this i truly want to say do NOT assume based on appearance that someone doesnt belong in a space. Did this straight woman have the right to invite a cis male to this space? No but, out of context, it can reinforce something that i hate to see.

[@skepticmonkey6923]

Sorry but we abolished gender and sex based segregation a long time ago, which means anyone can go wherever they want.

[@afrosamucryafrodite7098]

Bro he didn’t respond aggressively she also said “ hey why are you here “ that’s an aggressive question if you say that’s not harmful that means you think “ why is he black “ is not harmful. he responded to match her tone

[@samwright877]

It’s happening here in Belfast. Our 2 queer spaces are almost fully straight clubs at this point. It’s awful to see as a queer woman.

[@notamurderer6226]

Better than segregation

[@badaoe3stratsonly130]

You can still create a space for Queer folks if that's bugging you. Make a Queer book club and invite your friends. I doubt that many straight Bro's are gonna try to infiltrate your group to read Fun home by Alison Bechdel.

[@samwright877]

@@badaoe3stratsonly130 sadly i do not own a nightclub and thats what i was talking about

[@badaoe3stratsonly130]

@@samwright877 No no you don't have to own a night club. I'm saying, if you want a safe queer space. You can make one. Like a book club, or an D&D meet up. I'm saying that we don't need clubs or thousands of dollars to make a safe space for ourselves.

[@samwright877]

@@badaoe3stratsonly130 there are gay spaces, but thats not the point. it shouldn’t be on us to have to keep running and making new zones for ourselves every time another one gets taken away from us. also theres a huge difference between dnd and clubbing. some people really like clubbing and we shouldnt have to give that up just because straight people feel entitled to spaces that aren’t theirs. yeah, make little calm gay spaces like book clubs if thats what you find fun, but its really not fun for others.

[@BrownCookieBoy]

Besides the condescending chuckling as if you were an elitist from the hunger games, you have valid concerns, although pretty excluding solutions.

[@Kiseochan]

I wonder why they assumed he was strait. A lot of queer friends are not very flamboyant. If its based on appearance, the same thing would have happened to them :(

[@fredrik7940]

so excluding one group because theyre statistically more likely to behave badly is the way to go? I wonder where we've seen that before

[@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? I wonder too no cap

[@titandarknight2698]

Hmmmmm I wonder why so many women don't feel safe. hmmmm i wonder why lesibians woudn't want a cis man at a lesibian bar. hmmmm I wonder why a straight man can't just go to any other F-ing bar. BRUH. Women are statistically more likely to be harrased and attacked by cis men. But I'm sure that donsn't matter to you.

[@NukeNukedEarth]

I feel like as long as the cishet men coming into those queer spaces are invited there by their friends and they behave properly I have no issues. The woman who wanted that guy out had no way of knowing if he was a gay or trans man, she literally she looked at him and decided he did not belong in that space.