Did They Ruin the FWD King? | 2023 Honda Civic Type R

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It's hard to update a great car. There's nowhere to go but down. Or is there? The 2023 Honda Civic Type R had big shoes to fill. The outgoing Type R is not just one of the best front-wheel drive cars ever made, it's one of the best 4 doors (ok, five) ever, punching way above its weight class in terms of comfort and track performance. Has the new one addressed its predecessor's thermal shortcomings? Has the new hardware taken it too far? And how does it stack up against the more-affordable Hyundai Elantra N and rowdy Toyota GR Corolla?
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[@tr1ckster726]

I just can't stomach $65,000 for a vehicle. The dealer markup is criminal.

[@BrettS98]

i like your comment and your first name lol. I thought the mark ups were bad from dealers when the new 86 came out... sheeesh

[@R1senb18c]

Savagegeese touches on this in his review, we all need to say no to the markups, this car isn't worth more than 45-46k, period. I'll keep my Rc F for now, or get a Gr Supra manual instead.

[@1BlinkwithAngels82]

@@R1senb18c Agreed and GR Supra manual is a very enticing option to me as well.

[@BrettS98]

@@festuspunky D.A.R.E. to say NO to dealership scams and markups

[@JacesOwnWorld]

100% agree. Anything over $50k, and $50k is PUSHING IT, has plain retard’ism attached to whoever is paying that kind of money for a Civic.

[@Rlyeh_The_Dead]

The fact that there are cars still being made in manual only gives me so much joy

[@mengx94]

There's a few base models that come in manual. Lol

[@christianbliss8944]

@@mengx94 80% of cars in Europe have a manual trasmission

[@lancestewart6907]

I work at a honda dealer... I asked our sales manager how much they would be marking up our single allocated car. He was 100% serious when he said "Only 10K, we dont want to tarnish our reputation over one car."....

[@espankymanny]

Someone nearby (in Cali) paid 20k over sticker... why lol

[@aaromon43]

i'd rather take that $10k and light it on fire than give to a dealer as markup.

[@TheChannel1978]

Lol how to not manage sales

[@mengx94]

*ONLY* 10k 😂

[@NBPT428]

Only 10K? Thats almost a 25% markup not to mention it's 10K over LIST. I've been buying Acura's since 2000 at the same dealer. Earlier this year we wanted a new RDX. Our dealer was doing this. See you later!! Found another dealer with no markup. Now our old dealer is not marking up. Too late, too bad. Lost all your credibility.

[@Canyondriver]

Thank you for including the slides while going over the details of the car. I like the visual appeal and gives a brochure-like feel/reference points when going over what improvements have been made to the car.

[@jerryc6497]

Yes thanks for the slides Matt!

[@njalsten6766]

This type of cars(and other enthusiast cars) should have a special factory program where you buy them directly from them, and let the point A to point B for dealerships and his predatory tactics

[@TheCL296]

Shoutout to Matt for advocating about mental health!

[@tonymcflattie2450]

I am pretty mental, myself.

[@04dram04]

He isnt. He's just accepting a check from the better help sponsor, which is a grift

[@nodammit]

@@04dram04 He has a lot of choices on what to advocate/advertise or not. He chose this, which shows integrity.

[@jessem_i31]

@@04dram04 Matt has been very open about his going to therapy. This is something with which he has experience, it's not just him accepting a check for some product or service he knows nothing about.

[@04dram04]

@@nodammit BS. He just picked the highest paying one. This sponsor is the most common one on YT

[@bingoberra18]

However great it is, I am sad that the cars have grown so big. The civic type R was a hot hatch. Now its the size of an Accord. Its 18cm wider than an EP3 Type-R and has 13cm longer wheel base. It´s time for a 220hp version of a Honda Fit.

[@johnshima01]

agree 100%, i was hoping the integra would be smaller 2 door but no, they ruined that too

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

@@johnshima01 an Si Fit will kill sales of the civic..... Noway Honda will do it .... people have been asking for over a decade already for a si Fit......

[@Ezero8]

Exactly! That's what I like about the GR Corolla and Veloster N. They are smaller and true hot hatches.

[@bingoberra18]

@@Ezero8 Well the Corolla might be small in US but here it´s sort of mid size :D We have the GR Yaris as "small" hot hatch. And Honda need something in that size too. Like Fiesta ST.

[@jeffk464]

Longest car in its class? I don't think so, I think its class is now mid-sized sedan. They need to stop making everything bigger, that's why they have bigger models.

[@sdlausen1]

I think it's worth it at MSRP only. You're encroaching on Supra or used gt350 territory with these insane markups

[@V1perKiller]

Supra has insane markups too, paid 10k over for my A91-MT, and I've been hearing dealers are marking up Premium autos and MTs also.

[@sdlausen1]

@@V1perKiller not the auto. You paid a premium because you wanted the hyped manual

[@Vision33r]

@@V1perKiller You're never gonna drive faster in a MT over the Dual Clutch.

[@meechieflow_]

@@sdlausen1 super has crazy markups as well

[@sdlausen1]

@@meechieflow_ no they don't. I see plenty online at MSRP

[@jorgeizDShiznit]

+1 for the visuals! It was pretty sick seeing the differences! I also think it looks a lot more appealing to the older crowd, less hot wheels like

[@jonchapman8344]

The reality is opposite

[@davemorris6747]

@@jonchapman8344 absolutely. It’s the woke milenials that hate the FK8 but love the FL5. I’m 60 and my friends of my age group love the lines of the FK8. One actually said “I hope your not going to get an FL5”. The fact unicorns are more available in the U.K. was the biggest deciding factor along with the ridiculous mark up.

[@blu_is500]

Nice job guys! It was nice to see the car in action and I'm loving the new looks.

[@joshuajordan5700]

Love the 11th gen, got an EXL hatchback in June, and I think the styling - interior and exterior - is on point, though I still really like the FK8. If cars weren’t being marked up to all hell, I’d have a hard time talking myself out of it

[@lebowski_dude]

The Civic is a big car these days - way bigger than the '84 Accord my parents had.

[@notsure3535]

Makes my 94 accord coupe look small

[@Blas4ublasphemy]

Wish we got the Yaris GR here....

[@dogshmog]

If you’re ever in Sonoma County for a review again, you need to film on Skaggs Spring Road. From the 1 it goes along a ridge top to Lake Sonoma. One of the best driving roads I’ve found in the US, and very little traffic if any.

[@ryeguy88]

Dude I love Skaggs. That first section is so much race track… then once you pass that gravel section it becomes rally stage 😅

[@thomaskong5]

For $65k dealership mark up, I'd rather get a lightly used m2 competition lmao

[@mattwilliams3508]

I think they killed it with the aesthetic changes on the new type r! A good balance of curvature and aggressive lines, the older ones looked a little overdone in my opinion and the new spoiler is awesome

[@HyphenDude]

Love the look and stats of the 2023 Civic Type-R. I would sell my tuned Civic Si to put towards this, but not at a 10-20k markup. MSRP, yes, but that markup is nuts.

[@damienhowell3727]

People need to understand it's a jack of all trades hot hatch with porsche level engineering in a hot hatch smh it's truly special

[@gpw_ap2832]

Your video sold me on the 2008 Civic Si a decade ago. And they have sold me on the new type R. Great video!

[@ryeguy88]

I’m a Sonoma County local and I recognize all those roads. Hope you guys enjoyed yourselves up north.

[@Patrick94GSR]

The front suspension design with the steering axis fully inside the wheel is pretty sweet. It's like a cross between double wishbone and McPherson strut. I wish more cars with strut-type front suspension would adopt designs like this.

[@thetechlibrarian]

There are some

[@Patrick94GSR]

@@thetechlibrarian such as? I’ve never seen that design on any other car.

[@Ezero8]

Thank you for that sponsor, I really needed it so I can find a therapist. The car is nice too, but I like the less-subtle look of the last-gen Type R more.

[@ShooterSanoff]

You guys film this at Infineon Raceway in Sonoma? My local racetrack up here in Northern California

[@calarbor7495]

That’s a fun road, I work as an arborist and I spent a month and a half in that area this year. Everyday I wished I wasn’t in a work truck, haha.

[@SLAPindaTRU7VK]

Cool to see a review done on my local driving road! Oakville Grade / Dry Creek Rd are great roads if you find yourself in the Napa area.

[@garrettharrington6993]

yeah i went to school in sonoma and recognized this road that goes into oakville/all the vineyards… cant believe they are on it 😂

[@AmanJandu]

Is there somewhere online I can find all these slides with the technical changes?

[@GODOFGUITAR2112]

I’ve been lusting after a Civic Si ever since your review. Now I have a new “affordable” summit car

[@danielgladston1785]

Seems awesome. Interesting points brought up in the comparo with the GR Corolla because every single review I've read has said it has a fantastic ride/handling balance. My guess is that the Morizo is stiffer than the Core model. I'd bet the Core is as comfortable or more comfortable than this Type R despite not having adaptive dampers. Of course if you want more room, the Honda wins. I just love the small size of the GR.

[@IsaacPoopsAlot]

this car actually sounds really good! what a pleasant suprise, not raspy at all but I love the induction sound head on! I will say, it's for sure worth 43k but no more than 45k, dealer markups are actually ruining the economy in general and dealerships need to be wiped out as a whole

[@robertmontgomery7158]

Did they fix the second gear crunch/grind?

[@kilroy914]

Oakville Grade! Rocking my 'hood. Loving my 2022 Civic Sport

[@ryeguy88]

I knew it was oakville! I’m like this is deer park / Calistoga territory.. then I see the hard left for trinity road.

[@Affalterbach1967]

7:55 How much horsepower and torque do you need to use the turnout lane as a passing/undertaking lane ?

[@DIYworkplace]

Is this car stiff for daily use? Our roads are really bad in Montreal, Quebec.

[@aspiratedaloha2946]

Much love for a well sorted FWD

[@gustavoflorio5383]

Best content always!

[@scottbowers7248]

It also needs additional seat color options, I am just not a fan of the bright red

[@andrewb325]

Definitely props to the smaller 19" wheels. Stop the insanity.

[@dotheymakethatformen]

It makes me happy that Honda and others are still making fun little cars like this.

[@cielo20]

fun they are not little anymore

[@s4nder86]

Little is a stretch.

[@stevelouie5928]

Cost as much as a sporty luxury car though.

[@dotheymakethatformen]

@@cielo20 Automakers sell what people buy. If you want them to keep making small sporty cars, then make the effort to buy a brand new one.

[@JahoSelamaj]

You must be American

[@thegirthquake8574]

8:35 And when brought up to Johnny Lieberman on the podcast, Johnny got into a tizzy because he couldn't understand that the CTR overheated lmao. I remember that incident.

[@MrRed0devil]

Audio sync off slightly, but a great video.

[@gavinsullivan9015]

definitely getting a test drive now off the back of that 👍

[@PossessedGaming07]

I really like the look of it. Definitely an improvement

[@ZeGermanHam]

It seems dynamically good, but with a turbo and 7k RPM redline, it doesn't bring the "fizz" like the old N/A versions. Also not a fan of how the front hood shut line always seems to look uneven with the front fascia, but that's not specific to the Type R.

[@tumsfestival8027]

Pretty much no modern version of a car is gonna have the “fizz” of older models. there’s just too much safety, sound deadening and electronics between you and the road.

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

@@tumsfestival8027 💯.......

[@resolutesportsperformance2751]

Thanks for a great video

[@lancestewart6907]

The trick here is to make sure that mark-up goes into the sales managers pocket... If the car is marked up 20K, then offer the sales manager a 2k markup with another 2k cash for him.... They will get real flexible then.

[@artgrusensky121]

very accurate on point review.

[@civiccrewrojosi]

I would like to see a track day comparison between a late model Fk8, possibly a Le and the new FL5 Civic Type R. I would be very interested in both your thoughts after a track day comparison.

[@kevinwarren8900]

Throttle house did a comparison. Along with the Focus RS & Golf R

[@davidrogers4066]

It’s faster on track than the previous model from the tests I have seen.

[@NaijaBull]

@@davidrogers4066 Thanks to the better wider tires. Would be interesting to see the similarities with equal tires.

[@davidrogers4066]

@@NaijaBull I doubt its purely the tires tbh

[@lexburen5932]

@@NaijaBull not only tyres. its 5 seconds faster on suzuka then fk8 limited edition.

[@WillowDailyShorts]

Is it worth $15k in ADM? I don’t think this is a north of $60k with tax and fees driving experience.

[@antny109]

Solid review.

[@Deiondrick]

7:57 The pain of not being able to send it around that corner smh.

[@jamesmedina2062]

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️The best driving experience reviewer. Thank you.

[@kl0udykl0ud55]

Where are you guys finding the information on the individual changes They've made between the fk 8 and the Fl5

[@champanedout]

costs $66k at my local honda dealer in socal.. lol.. they force you to buy dealer accessories @ $2500+ (PPF, wheel locks, tint) and then add another $20k for dealer markup.. for a honda civic

[@ytrabbithole6893]

I think this is an awesome car… but not with a markup as pretty much the whole internet has said. I just wish the SI bridged the gap a bit more in term of power then that would be a really attractive alternative.

[@axionind]

Great review and a fantastic car for Honda

[@joshbeverly]

What model Dillon glasses is Matt wearing in this video?

[@WTFibangdrums]

It’s enjoyable seeing these reviews on roads/tracks local to me that I’ve driven.

[@n-power-automotive]

Great review! I always appreciate Matt and Zach’s honesty, not getting caught up in the media hype. I own an Elantra N and absolutely love it, but when I saw the new CTR for the first time my heart skipped a beat. I love the design (except for the tacked on rear wing) and thought if I could find one near MSRP maybe I’d try to make something happen, but I highly doubt any will be near MSRP. And this review confirmed Honda missed the mark by not making the car sound better. I hate that artificial engine sound. I’m gonna stick with my Elantra N despite the hate the car gets from those who can’t accept Hyundai made a great performance car. If it’s 9/10th a CTR with a way better sounding exhaust and softer comfort mode then I’ll be staying right where I am.

[@pr33tu_]

Enjoy the Elantra N for sometime man, save your money and move up in class.

[@abdu8745]

BRO same boat… I Fucking grin so hard every time I rip my Elantra N on my local backroads

[@lukewalker1051]

As you should stay where you are. 20 more grand for the Type R is a rip off compared to the Elantra N which btw may appeal more to some buyers in terms of styling. The new Type R is not a compelling car at $55-60K because that price brings in many more pedigreed rivals like Supra, BMW and Porsche Boxster.

[@donsummers5678]

Emotional damage

[@abdu8745]

@@lukewalker1051 yeah man. At the end of the day people will say what they want about any of these cars. You can never please everyone and quite frankly I don’t give a damn what people have to say… all I care about is if I am having fun and am content with how much value im getting for my hard earned money!

[@davidnavaortiz2092]

Hi my name is David and before I ask you a question I just want to let you guys know that I love your videos and my question is I am looking into buying a sports car and I am looking into getting an M3 or M2 manual transmission but I also like the Cadillac CTS-V Black Wing the V6 twin turbo but I also want it manual transmission which one do you guy's think that is a better car also if you guys know does BMW do on their engines port and direct injection or is it only direct injection and also is the Cadillac direct injection or is it both port and direct.

[@kellinpatler]

For $65k (including ADM), I’d be looking at an M2C, 997 or a 987.

[@marlontauro9517]

Have you tried the sports mode?

[@charliecharlie8621]

Easily distinguishable because it actually looks good

[@fhowland]

Incredible road! Where?

[@bentucker2301]

Compared to the last one this is such refined design.

[@omg_stoppit]

Matt, I feel like the Destro was made for you. Please tell me you got one.

[@Nodonn]

So uhhh, you guys know where to find one for MSRP?

[@TacticalToolbox]

Trust me when I tell you... 400-450 at the wheels on the Type R is perfect. Especially with Hondata Traction Control

[@Vision33r]

Traction control basically sucks the power out just to make to keep it from spinning. Put the 400-450 on a RWD or AWD launch it will take off without Traction control.

[@4Kandlez]

@@Vision33r I guess you know more than Hondata then

[@CTF33]

No its not

[@Ww8.3]

@@4Kandlez it’s simple physics 😂

[@4Kandlez]

@@Ww8.3 Physics 101 for simpletons maybe

[@PeteRench]

Honda: What can we change? Engineers: What do you mean? LOL great video as always

[@john9077]

the bass is really heavy on audio mixings; hard to listen to this with over the ear headphones

[@thor3901]

What road is that?

[@TheCL296]

It will be interesting with the “mark-up” market these days… Manufacturers might need to begin considering extra dealer costs during production. No one wants to pay 60k for a 45k car but if you’re crazy enough or have stupid money, the value absolutely needs to be there.

[@lukewalker1051]

Even slightly stupid money will buy a BMW, a Supra or entry level Porsche. If Honda lets their dealers mark these way up, let morons buy them. You can buy a one year old Lexus for less money.

[@gobinduppal4429]

Oh they won’t be marked up $15k. No way. More like a 75-100% markup. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them hit $100k. It’s insane but it is the way at the moment. Otherwise they will have to use the allocation system that Porsche uses.

[@McNasty43]

Just realized you guys never did a video on the GR Corolla. Any plans to release one?

[@MaddNomad1015]

Matt only did one on the Morizo Edition for road and track.

[@craigyirush3492]

Lots of photos at Sonoma, but no track time!

[@Slowcarfastbeans]

I like it. Very sleek lines.

[@ATStone]

Shoutout to Honda for totally screwing up the embargo!

[@ScottPC]

This video is late to the embargo 😂

[@ATStone]

@@ScottPC It isn't. It's right on time. The embargo for TST (and anyone else not invited to the US GP launch) is today.

[@ScottPC]

@@ATStone I agree but you’d think he’d at least hit the embargo deadline after bitching about it 😂 was uploaded an hour late…

[@ThatGermanFella]

Too bad none of the target audience including myself can't afford this car with 25k delaer mark ups, manufacturers complain about low sales figures of cars like this when in reality its their own dealers preventing it from a sales success.

[@joeymustang]

Considering Matt had an RS, I wonder how the street rideability compares to the GR Corolla in his mind.

[@LoveLikeaHurricane]

i guess they might not be able to pick up on the details as much as someone who owns an FK8. But the seat cushions are of a softer material. And you cannot turn off traction control fully in individual mode, so that is quite unfortunate. Its sad to see the gasoline engine Type R go out like this.

[@bradava1]

Elantra N gets awfully close to this for $30,000 less is what they should have said. Not one of these will be sold in the US for msrp.

[@TheFK8Life]

Let me know when an Elantra N makes 630whp on a stock engine lol Hyundai makes garbage engines

[@Roflcakes88]

Queue the Hyundai haters

[@youcangetsum6871]

@@TheFK8Life would have to spend 75-80k+ plus just to make that mine as well get an rs3, probably still has cooling problems too it’s overrated and still has a shit exhaust , you won’t even get it msrp anywhere In the states, I bet it won’t be much faster than EN on track.

[@TheFK8Life]

@@youcangetsum6871 lol I made 566whp on a drop in turbo - Hyundai engines suck

[@MikeJones-on9vm]

The EN aren’t selling for msrp either, the EN in my area are going for over 40k.

[@malkionx]

Love seeing you guys tag teaming a review! And I know I’m in the minority but last gen in boost blue looked better

[@djsg143]

I liked the last gens design....just that issue with manual and some heating issues had me worried about longevity

[@cameronriccio6050]

Savagegeese’s video had them running the car full around Pomona all day with no issues, so you’re probably fine

[@cielo20]

these ran at suzuka were seeing temps of 117C and off the chart oil temps , it was 150C oil temp after that it went ---

[@philipkircher2848]

It’s not possible to get a good exhaust sound from a turbo 4 as the turbo itself acts as an additional muffler.

[@NCLme]

I’m in Canada 🇨🇦 So we already at $60k plus markUp 😅 Still want One though 🤔 I’ll wait till next year this time to Buy

[@opadilla123]

Thats truly the new accord hatch type r, fk8 still the true beast

[@John.Christopher]

13:15 come on Matt .. You couldn't comment on the seat just once? Seats are so important in cars, and they nail it here!

[@adamgroszkiewicz814]

A Type R with a 6500 RPM redline. This is the world in which we live. :/

[@karlotapang]

This is a well rounded review and he is a pro driver. That’s how you drive a stick. I love it.

[@liltay8962]

watched almost every review on this car and your review is by far the best, worth the wait and the fucked up embargo definitely did not stop me from immediately clicking on your review the second I saw it, great job!!!!

[@1209MArky]

Same, I always wait for their review. They’re the only actual true auto enthusiasts imo.

[@Soh90]

Check out Throttle House review then 😏

[@_westcoastcanine_]

Doug, Redline, TFL, Straight Pipes, TST…….. today must be Civic day 🚗

[@NaijaBull]

You forgot the two best auto journalists..Throttle House and Savagegeese

[@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo]

​@@NaijaBull savage is amazing, TH are just generic KZbinrs......... Best Automotive journalist are sam smith from road and track and Chris Harris ..... I'm sure Farah would agree..... Carlos and Camisa are notable mentions.......

[@samargre3494]

Appreciate the review!

[@chevyracing1080]

The funny thing is, somebody who has no financial sense and makes terrible decisions will pay 10-15k over for a 4cy, Honda..civic.. 60k for a Honda Civic is absolutely hilarious dealers think that makes any kind of sense. You are in RS3 money at that point. I pity any fool who pays up for anything over 45k for this because this car makes no sense at anything higher.

[@martinramirez6050]

I'm digging it

[@mharro88]

I'd rather a Elantra n . Test drove this and bought a N purely because it's more comfortable with heated and cooled seats in Australia, better NVH, better tech, just as fun on track and comes with a track warranty. Not to mention way better value.

[@aceofspades6667]

I think this vehicle is worth $40k.. I'll wait 1-2 years until they get all the bugs out. There usually is a software glitch or some basic recall. At some point when the economy turns these dealers will start getting desperate and the markups will go away.

[@poker_18rs92]

The red interior & carpet are going to show everything…… it’s a shame it’s not offered with a black interior….. It looks nice, but I wish it was a little more compact & smaller.

[@melvinmeligrito4103]

Its the accord vibes this car gives me lol

[@lambrosstamos4494]

Everyone reports that the seats are great. Yet, I will applaud the manufacturer who offers its seats in different sizes. I am 6'4"" tall, about your size.

[@Prodriver33]

CTR or SS 1LE, which is more fun every day?

[@sokratzmmf]

SS 1LE looks better on paper and worth the money.

[@Youcallthesebagels_]

Dynamic duo back at it again!

[@randyhyland847]

That paint chip behind the wheel is wild to me for a brand new press car. Bad paint?

[@RelaxAndSmokeMeth]

rocks hit hard at speed

[@4Kandlez]

Bad stone

[@roypeterka]

I wonder if it will have temperature issues in the summer on track. It's not a surprise that this new car didn't have these issue with ambient temps in the low 50's.

[@4Kandlez]

Doubtful Honda didn't think of that seeing as it was a problem with the previous car

[@roypeterka]

@@4Kandlez they knew it was a problem before, but it’s not a concern for most people and it costs a lot more to fix it, so I am looking for people’s real-world experience when it gets hot.