SETTLING THE DRAMA - Talking w/ Dylan About RGR & Demonmama

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#Vaush #VaushDebates

[@pkpunchie]

Dylans chat lost this debate

[@mobiusygosh1tp0sts37]

Yeah wtf is wrong with these people

[@mikebiggums1921]

@@mobiusygosh1tp0sts37 DGG raid hopefully?

[@flashthompson6566]

So much that Dylan himself was like "I need to hide these people"

[@tequilasunset8628]

They’re not even involved and they were way more defensive than Dylan lol.

[@pkpunchie]

@@tequilasunset8628 Dylan is a very smart and reasonable person, it appears his chat does not share those same characteristics here

[@martijnstuart95]

Dylan's chat calling Vaush bad faith and saying he uses sneaky debate tactics when the conversation hadn't even started was so fucking weird and funny to me

[@Neon_Plasma]

A lot of them are from Destiny's audience

[@PristianoPenaldoSUIIII]

"Bad faith" is the DGGer's version of "everyone I don't like is [X]"

[@blargh3428]

He has a few DGGer's in there

[@chrisfox7034]

VDS

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Vaush: *breathes* DGG: "He's using the deep sigh debate tactic REE"

[@mikebiggums1921]

Vaush: "I think-" Dylan's chat: "This is so bad faith, Vaush is such a weaselly little snake."

[@Blakbox92]

Dylan and Vaush seem to be pretty positive with each other, Dylan's chat on the other hand...

[@hemantkarasala5767]

Lol, children in Dylan's chat. How could you possibly think Vaush is being unreasonable in this matter.

[@AngryShooter]

Also an alarming number of them straight-up taking RGR's position.

[@GayFesh]

Dylan's chat is like 80% DGG, it makes sense.

[@dntthe88]

the way every single one of them is putting two o's is driving me nuts.

[@wechildrenof1990]

Kinda disappointed this was all about RGR and not about how unfairly doe has been treated for things like "trauma dumping". When it was completely relevant in a discussion about what is and isn't child abuse. Especially when the other examples being used were something as harmless as being barefoot in public or something as silly as shitting yourself in public.

[@rumncoke76]

Yeah, Dylan focused almost exclusively on how RGR got shit and not how much shit Doe got and how actually sociopathic RGR acted in both the debates

[@FelisImpurrator]

I usually hate emotional appeals, but even I can't complain too much about a completely relevant example being used to illustrate a point.

[@AnAdequateViolinist]

@@rumncoke76 Vaush was steering the conversation for the most part, to be fair, so I wouldn’t blame Dylan alone for not bringing Doe up

[@rumncoke76]

@@AnAdequateViolinist yeah, but I ment that overall his coverage of the drama was focused on RGR and almost ignored treatment of Doe. At least from what I've seen

[@wechildrenof1990]

@@Dynamic_Editor oh dude the U.S mix is the far superior version. I'll always put that version on when I listen at home.

[@AximVidya]

"it's clear a lot of the hatred of RGR is about RGR being a Christian" These people are nothing without their persecution complex, are they.

[@patrickpanda8374]

As a former RGR fan I can say, RGR’s problem is that she can never admit when she is wrong because “look at my notes that look professional on my letterhead. ‘

[@boreanonekatto8146]

This

[@opctpos.]

Totally agree. To be honest. I think Riley is hung up about being trans.

[@oliviatorres7542]

@@opctpos. bruh how are you making this about her transness 😂

[@claires1063]

@@oliviatorres7542 All people have internalized transphobia. But I do think hers is worse than many other trans people's.

[@mugwump9031]

She's a vapid blowhard. Unfortunately, some lawyers take themselves extremely seriously - but that just betrays true insecurity and lack of substance.

[@GreyKnight7777]

"It was okay to slander Doe as a child predator for six months because I didn't know it was a CSA victim." - Dylan Burns

[@bigjavo36]

Dylan: as a victim of csa it was very hurtful to be compared to sex abuse defenders. Wow Dylan imagine that! I wonder who else might have done that exact same thing?

[@joshme3659]

Demonmama is kinda a piece of shit for doing that tbh. Rgr isnt a rapist so the comparison is absurd…

[@Painocus]

@@joshme3659 I dunno. I feel like there is an ocean of difference between "you defending your friend who did something bad is kinda like this high profile case where someone else defended their friend who did something bad" and "you are defending pedophilia".

[@wechildrenof1990]

@@joshme3659 yeah but the point is rgr was comparing a CSA survivor to an abuser for going barefoot in public. Whilst also saying that public indulgence of kink are child abuse but browsing kids for sex isn't. RGR was being dangerously unhinged with her arguments.

[@xXFebo92Xx]

I also thought he would be more angry about rgr denying that doe experienced csa, because the abuser only thought about it, while having a thought-crime-attitude towards people walking bare foot next to a playground.

[@joegravy6464]

@@joshme3659 funny - didnt Dylan say it was a family friend...not at school when he gave his explanation???...now he said it was at school....

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

why is dylan's chat acting like vaush is calling for RGR's severed head on a pike? He's being very moderate and reasonable in his condemnation of her.

[@DoctorJellicle]

VDSers gonna VDS

[@FelisImpurrator]

He did say "go nuclear, call her whatever you want" but it was in the hyperbolic shitpost tone, and he did also say "don't actually harass Riley", didn't he? Stream chats are festering pits of cancer though. Usually it's just the mob reeing.

[@iceman5117]

Because Vaush' audience has been harassing and brigading RGR nonstop since he went ballistic

[@alejandrorivas4585]

Real answer is a substantial portion of dylan's community is spun off from dgg, and several of the left wing communities that are generally anti-vaush.

[@kstar1489]

@@iceman5117 “went ballistic” lmao

[@stretchymc5126]

through RGR and Does debate everytime Doe tried to use its personal trauma as an example RGR accused it of "poisonining the well" or "baiting for sympathy" yet dylan completely understands that sharing a personal experience is relevant to the discussion, 2 head shit edit: I was using the wrong pronouns for Doe, ill see myself to the gulags

[@stretchymc5126]

@@xRickAstleyx I think you owe that nail an apology for hitting it so hard on the head

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@xRickAstleyx As me and others have said the dude is career politician who will trample and bury others to further his ambitions

[@RegsaGC]

This comment only makes sense to me, if you assume Dylan was defending rgr categorically, which he wasn't. Dylan never impuned Doe for bringing up its lived experience

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@Neon_Plasma Dude, seriously. All your comments seem to be about you hating someone Vaush is interacting with (Dylan, Shoe...) in some vastly hyperbolic way. Do you just define your identity around hating a shitload of people or something?

[@stretchymc5126]

@@RegsaGC I just think its a red flag Dylan should have noticed in RGR's language toward Doe, when Dylan himself clearly acknowledges that personal experience is relevant to these types of situations

[@pi172]

It took me only 4min to realize that his cat and voush arent chilling 4 min straight but that this is a picture instead of a video

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Between 0 and andromeda, how high were you?

[@pi172]

@@ImaginaryMdA Sadly 0. But it was still early in the morning. I am optimistic I'll be going to Andromeda more often in the future. Our new german government just announced they wanna legalize weed : )

[@simonbru1299]

Congrats

[@factjuniorroll]

Vaunch just really likes holding fluffy cats

[@NinjaRodent]

I watched almost the whole video and had to read your comment to realize that it was a picture and not video.

[@stoneman472]

Dylan: *Jumps the gun yet again to defend a friend* Vaush: *SIGH* Lemme put my Big Brother shirt on.

[@IMatchoNation]

DGG chatters: "OMG THIS IS JUST LIKE 1984!!!"

[@Sprite_525]

@@xRickAstleyx I really forget Dylan is just 21, cuz he’s so accomplished and consistent, but these moments remind me of my “20s” and I was insanely short-sighted, Dylan reminds me that we are really JUST starting our real lives at 20, in terms of developing our real principles and methods of dealing with complex real world collaboration carefully. Dylan will be unstoppable at 40, but until then he’s got a lot to learn in terms of life-experience, just like me when I was 20

[@stoneman472]

@@Sprite_525 true. I mean hell, look how much Vaush has grown in the last few years

[@FelisImpurrator]

Honestly, if Dylan cares about RGR he'll try to convince her to abandon Kantianism. All her most toxic takes are downstream of specifically Kantian deontology and reflect some of the conclusions Kant himself had.

[@stoneman472]

@@FelisImpurrator I honestly don't know much about Kant.

[@ladyvanda]

This reminds me of the Dave Chapelle drama. Hordes of people cried over Chapelle being criticized, with some people sending emails to his employer, Netflix. In the meantime, middle class regular ass people working at Netflix lost their jobs for opposing the Chapelle show. The calculation it split into 2 situations: 1- Famous/loved by everyone/very wealthy celebrity gets criticized for unfunny jokes stolen from the 80's. Criticism leads to more people watching the show and Chapelle laughs all the way to the bank 2- Regular people lose their job for criticizing the show And the victim is... #1, of course. RGR labeled Doe as pro-pedo for 6 months (and her audience heard loud and clear and they just called Doe a pedo). Remember this was because Doe twitted that it goes outside barefoot sometimes with its boyfriend who likes feet (the tweet didn't even say 'foot fetish'). *6 months* of harassment, calling Doe a pedo, because of that tweet. That is unhinged behavior from RGR. Her little vendetta will make it much harder for Doe to get work in the future, but no one cares about that. For those 6 months, Doe merely asked RGR to stop badgering it about pedo stuff. RGR refused at every chance. RGR had a stream where she randomly decided that Doe would not talk to her, so RGR just spent that time insulting Doe. When Doe found out she was supposed to have guessed that RGR wanted to debate, Doe accepted. RGR picked the date. At that time, RGR decided to make Doe wait for no reason and made Doe wait an hour. Then RGR immediately framed everything as "getting off" and Doe asked RGR multiple times, from minute 1 of the debate, to quit using the term 'getting off'. Doe never spoke of getting off, and she always said doing anything knowingly with children in the vicinity was wrong. But RGR didn't want to hear that answer. She wanted Doe to say it was a pedo. RGR was not taken aback by Doe mentioning her CSA experience - she mentioned multiple time she was warned that Doe might bring it up. RGR's response to Doe was disgusting. Muting it, accusing it of violating the audience by not giving a tw first... I wonder, will RGR chastise Dylan for bringing up his own experience in this discussion? Dylan didn't give us a TW, RGR must be disgusted by him. The cherry on top was RGR's good friend, mod, and prominent member of her community, Kalvin Garrah, said to Doe in chat that her CSA experience was stronger evidence that it's a pedo. Because many pedos were abused as children. Will Kalvin tell us he believes Dylan is probably a predator? Or does RGR and her orbiters have alternate motives and are okay with destroying the lives of people who disagree with them? When Dylan declared that he would leverage all his political capital to keep RGR on no matter what she did, he did exactly what everyone covering SA does. "I work with him, he's a great guy! I've never seen him assault a single woman in front of me!" I know everyone involved is terminally online, but for everyone with a life outside the internet, being labeled a pedo online is a career ender. It's a social life killer. Doe might be a partnered streamer, and it's way too kind to remind RGR that her behavior is not TOS *at all*, but this fake pedo shit needs to end. It's kiwi farms tier bullshit.

[@PurgPurg]

I haven’t paid a ton of attention to this situation but this is a really good summation of what’s going on. That’s so disgusting and angering, I wonder why RGR so desperately wants to destroy doe over this when the problem is entirely of her own creation. Maybe she just has a heavy emotional involvement in pedophilia idk

[@ellagage1256]

Yeah in the end what RGR did to Doe is horrible and something that actually effected her real life... I hate that being written off as just like "internet drama"

[@lumistar2767]

What I find most irritating about this summarization is that even in this situation Dylan focuses on RGR and not Doe the person she wronged.

[@lubu2960]

how it is 6 motnhs of harassment?

[@FelisImpurrator]

The left never should have permitted a subsection of the community to grow into a QAnon tier pedo witchhunt. This kind of behavior seems to have started in fandom spaces with "anti-shipping", where people's insistence that NSFW fiction involving minor characters was equivalent to CP bled into a broader moral condemnation of loli/shota fictional content in progressive spaces. That has since spiraled wildly out of control as people draw up increasingly absurd and unworkable definitions of CSA and CP to drive out an imaginary plague of MAPs. Or, well, it could just be convergent evolution and totally unrelated, but I doubt any form of Twitter insanity will ever truly be self-contained.

[@julimalJhonBro]

Breaking news: newborn learns how to type "bad faith", is immediately made a moderator in the dgg community.

[@kixmix2450]

somebody please tell me what the hell does dgg stands for

[@sirsecular1277]

@@kixmix2450 Its Destinys website

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

@@kixmix2450 it's political streamer Destiny's Website. Vaush has his own called Vgg

[@andrju3916]

Seeing Dylan's chat throughout this really shows how much people will just stick to their camp, no matter what, and consider everyone else the bad ones.

[@cobsparker9026]

Yeah I feel like this is the most annoying thing about online politics. Literally everyone does this

[@ryanphoenix2460]

Yes and then there's the Vaush Camp which knows that Vaush Bad

[@broganwarrior4844]

Yeah felt the same way reading this comment section

[@andrju3916]

@@broganwarrior4844 Ooh that's a good idea.

[@andrju3916]

@@broganwarrior4844 I don't know if they're that comparable, but I could just be biased against RGR as well.

[@siryvain1602]

The fact that Riley is getting this much charity is sickening. Funny how contacting the bar is "too far bringing irl stuff into it." We are all aware that Doe's pain and harassment were real right? Does harassing and threatening Doe not count as "real life?" Does accusing a CSA survivor of being a pedo or a pedo enabler WITHOUT ANY FUCKING EVIDENCE not count as "real life stuff?" This is pathetic. The victim in this situation is not getting near the support it deserves.

[@robinsonc5]

1. Rgr didn't call them a pedo 2. Doe's past is irrelevant to the overall convo

[@siryvain1602]

@@robinsonc5 1. She at the very least she said that Doe was enabling pedophilia 2. Her personal experiences with CSA are ABSOLUTELY RELEVANT. Your inability to see how it is relevant does not make it irrelevant 3. You are not an intelligent person.

[@TheShyDoomer]

Dylan has repeatedly shown his friendship with people will blind him.

[@greycoloris7665]

I think he has more cause for his argument here though. Like, I agree - remembering the thing with Prime Cayes (was that the right spelling?) and Dylans GF at the time - and that MIGHT absolutely be a part of it? Buuuut I think it's also true that people are going a little far when they do exactly what RGR tried to do to Doe and... i guess it reads to them as 'maximizing the impact of righteousness'? It really isn't though. It's usually just... masturbatory moralism. I don't see the constructive aspect in that beyond, well, what would either help directly mitigating the issues for Doe or send a signal to Riley - and if the latter is what it's supposed to be about, that can be achieved with waaaaay less than a total deplatforming or going after her livelihood. She's not Sargon or Blair White or anyone like that yet. Maybe she shouldn't be taken 100% fully as a representative of queer issues though. Wouldn't want her on any 'board' of that kind, as far as i understood it.

[@smileyp4535]

@@greycoloris7665 I don't understand what you're trying to say really, the point is while Dylan is a good guy generally he has shown a prepensity to just choose the person close to him over all else without any evidence, which isn't a bad thing in terms of loyalty but loyalty in and of itself isn't that great. First and foremost we must be loyal to the truth, not our friends, as hard as it is to be sometimes if he had said "whoa idk what's going on but I know RGR and she seems like a good and smart person to me who's done a lot of good stuff, what happened?" It would have been a lot better than just making a decoration of war again like with Prime Cayes (which seems to be what happened but then again I'm only 12 minutes in and I don't want Dylan that much)

[@greycoloris7665]

@@smileyp4535 As i stated: He didn't just say what he said because of pure personal appreciation and uncritical loyalty - most of it, with the initial take, but not all. Because the whole truth also contains the point that some of his critique with regard to people maybe overshooting it a little and taking the issue just as one-sidedly was absolutely reasonable. I guess one could disagree ultimately (argument coming up in the video on the 'enemy' position, but i can at least understand Dylans reading, tho Vaush has a good point too about long term implications)... ..but in general it's certainly fair to bring that up, because of what i stated above. So I wouldn't like the OP to read as 'Oh it's just about friendship, Dylan is sooooo immature, he's always just coming from mindless loyalty'. Cause that's not the case. He brings more to the table than that, both in terms of arguments as well as his motivations. ... It's true though this has been an issue before. I'll cut him some slack tho - frontal cortex only matures with 25, so i don't think it's ageism to be a bit forgiving about young peoples impulse control when I critique them for occasionally lacking it.

[@friend7120]

admirable quality

[@smileyp4535]

@@friend7120 honestly to the dree at which he has done this twice now makes me disagree

[@dominiks5068]

the chat was utterly unhinged in this debate.

[@Neon_Plasma]

He has overlap with the audience of Destiny's

[@dominiks5068]

@@Neon_Plasma Yes, that's what I thought as well - the talking points seem awfully familiar...

[@evilsdouble]

Yeah I noticed the same thing. Dylan still doesn't understand what the issue really is I think. Or at least he feels pressured not to say anything

[@Blakbox92]

@@Neon_Plasma I wonder every time he comes up why that guy has such zealous stans and why they show up in communities that aren't Destiny's.

[@flashthompson6566]

Everybody in Dylan's chat going "but going after her IRL job is too much!" is wrong. RGR entirely brought that on herself. She uses the law student status herself to strengthen her claims, what with her fake legal docs and what not. She said this in public. Nobody's mad at anything she said in her private life. She made public comments about this. That IS IRL.

[@DoctorJellicle]

I imagine she uses her online clout to afford her professional legitimacy as well in her offline spaces. It goes both ways and you can't pick and choose when the two world collide and when they don't.

[@Anthropomorphic]

I'm not sure I understand how it does a proportionate amount of good, though I haven't followed this thing very closely.

[@verminscum]

Also literally 3 people tagged the Maryland Bar in a tweet. 3 people. She isn't even on the bar, she's barely a student. That's not going after her job. Meanwhile hundreds of people actively spam and report DM's channel, which LITERALLY IS going after her job, and Dylan barely says a word. It's the hypocrisy for me.

[@ms6534]

Philosophic debate won't get you disbarred, you terminally online goobers. Breaking the law, advising someone to break the law, giving legal advice without being a lawyer, malpractice, these are things that will get your current or future legal career in trouble with the bar.

[@XIII_Vanitas]

I think the primary issue is that she doesn't understand (or acted like she didn't understand) consent or that trying to buy a minor's body isn't just a purely transactional activity, which does not bode well for someone who wants to become a lawyer.

[@chend2713]

wow i thought vaush and dylans community were pretty close to eachother, but the chat are talking about vaush that they hate him. even while dylan is admitting fault in real time... the mob mentality is real lol

[@verager2493]

It's what happens when you keep dgg'ers

[@deadrottenbird]

@@xRickAstleyx have you ever watched a stream of his? He doesn't really interact a whole lot with his chat at all because they're all going insane arguing all the time.

[@midnightnavigator]

Yeah I think a lot of them are DGGers. They seem to be flooding the chats of anyone on team rgr aka team destiny, especially if its against vaush or DM.

[@SpawnOfYogSothoth2387]

What is DGG?

[@randyohm3445]

@@SpawnOfYogSothoth2387 Destiny's community. Dgg is a reference to his website.

[@Soren59]

Vaush: "I-" Dylan's chat: "WHAT A WEASELLY LITTLE LIAR, DUDE"

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

Also "vaush the fart smellah" But at least I got a juvenile chuckle out of that one

[@evilsdouble]

I don't think Dylan really understands the problem still

[@revid]

Sometimes it takes a while to become aware of certain biases. Dylan should be given a chance to realize this on his own. Hopefully he will.

[@trashrabbit69]

After all these arcs, when are we finally leaving Namek?

[@tyronechillifoot5573]

After vaush and destiny have the final battle

[@northernnaysayer1240]

@@tyronechillifoot5573 you mean a final battle that will last around 28 days?

[@Xeridanus]

@@northernnaysayer1240 That's about 300 episodes.

[@thatguy779]

Wait, now I need you to make a timeline of Vaush’s career in terms of Dragonball/Z/GT/Super

[@Gragoroth]

@@northernnaysayer1240 You mean five Frieza minutes?

[@Sheltered]

the sheer ammount of content vaush makes a day keeps me entertained at work all day lol

[@dudemcdude3917]

Yep...thats what a DAY

[@dudemcdude3917]

Is

[@Sheltered]

@@dudemcdude3917 well, can you produce 12 hours of professional commentary in 24 hours. I doubt you understand how much work that is

[@runagaterampant]

Oh yes. I listen to vaush at work too. Also when doing chores at home. That's how I consume most of my vaush content. I wonder if he even knows how well his content works when it's audio only?

[@The_Babe]

@@runagaterampant he does! He's got some podcasts out there that is just audio from his streams

[@jacobhenderson9605]

Not acknowledging the six months of harassment is pretty bad on Dylans part makes him come off like he doesn't wanna acknowledge it.

[@FortuitousOwl]

I wish people, like Dylan, would be more willing to admit that they had a bad take. It makes it hard to support anyone.

[@lram45X]

I think that can be taken as a general statement and be more true.

[@FortuitousOwl]

@@lram45X I’m not sure what you mean

[@FortuitousOwl]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p ok?

[@greycoloris7665]

@@FortuitousOwl I think Dylan pretty much adressed everything he had to adress and only defended the defensible aspects. The take itself wasn't even that bad - it IS kinda hard to argue RGR should be reduced down to nothing but her bad side, especially by foaming-at-the-mouth moralists from the internetz - who very often say things along the lines of 'I wish people would just follow my moral judgement more often without asking dumb questions, it would be so much easier to trust them if they always acted in line with what I say is right'. Like, go ahead and make that argument, if you care to, but there is a reason Vaush didn't go further than basically asking 'how indicative is this of a more general issue' - and honestly reached very far in the image he painted about that, like '20 years down the line she might be just as exclusionary', bascially - true, but she might as well learn, it's hard to tell. But maybe one bad datapoint is very little ground on which to go that far in any case - even if the datapoint is fairly disgusting and there are some smaller extra points she might be principally sex-negative - it does read that way to me personally too btw, i just think it's still very little. ... Like, you seem to imply the fault here was in some sense 'obvious' at the outset and Dylan just obtuse - which is absolutely not the case, it's a reasonable, marginal disagreement. And what is the case is not reasonsable grounds for the kind of fundamental disappointmet you seem to express when you say that takes as understadable as that, like, shake your whole 'trust' in Dylan. It's really no reason to go that far tho - nobody could work with anyone ever if that was the case. .... It is true though all that should have better been integrated into his statements right from the start. Bad form not to have that. But not more than that - and he never pushed back on that one.

[@FortuitousOwl]

@@greycoloris7665 all of that ignores my very simple point that Dylan should’ve just admitted he had a bad take. That’s it. I didn’t say Dylan was evil or bad or always wrong or whatever. It was a very basic statement. It did not warrant a book written in anyones defense because I’m not attacking anyone.

[@diegocowmey87]

The pit always coming through with the A tier content

[@calastyphon4081]

Dylan focused on being a CSA victim being compared to a friend of wine-stein but has no concern for RGR doing worse to Doe

[@ellis_cake]

They way RGR tried piling on doe, mischaracterizing what fetishes are about, and then attempting to "gotcha" doe in a loopabout way that whole "conversation" came off _very_ abusive to me. RGR _does_ owe people an apology for that behaviour alone. It is hard to trust RGR just based on how she actually acts in this. I feel this is wholly unfair to Doe, and in the extent also to demonmama.

[@dylansevitt]

Wait what?? How is the kink or fetish margenilized? Because they are deemed in appropriate at pride?

[@ellis_cake]

@@dylansevitt In the context of a heteronormative society (i.e, there is an idea about so called "normal sex" (man missionary woman), and normative ideals of relationship-structures, accknowledging the broad spectrum of adult human sexuality and relationship-structures that exists outside of that is a spectrum that has different degrees of being "euw weird" to the major populace. This does not mean 'xyz is having it worse then zyx' - just that it IS within practices and lifestyles that are much less understood. My comment is not wholly or solely about just pride either, and the topic is at the crux of RGRs displayed malice towards the subject with doe as the collateral. Btw, BDSM & F is not deemed 'inappropriate' over the world. Where i live it is a part of the pride week of seminars, panels and discussions - aswell as having an enclosed area within the larger pride-arena where they take ID, as they should.

[@dylansevitt]

@@ellis_cake maybe I was unclear I was asking how they are margenilized. And if the margenilazation is only in relation to pride?

[@ellis_cake]

@@dylansevitt Perhaps i was as unclear. They are marginalised in society and reactions like those that RGR had and the framing when piling on doe is an example of that kind. The very heated and loaded language and hyperfocus on oversexualisation towards something that need not even be inherently so. It is thus since it is outside of the 'normative' view, and the heteronomative lens on what is 'sexuality, sex, lifestyle, normal' and so on.

[@dylansevitt]

@@ellis_cake I don't think rgr "talking" down to someone is proof of margenilization. And I'm confused how isn't kink or fetish inherently sexualized? In general I didn't watch the whole debate or know anything about doe prior to this other than they sound like a sound of music meme. I saw rgr arguing a bad point didn't see anything horrific though...

[@MoptopGames]

You’d think Dylan being a csa survivor would understand the repercussions of flippantly accusing trans people of supporting pedophilia but maybe that’s just me

[@robinsonc5]

The steak is very stupid because 1. RGR did not accuse do Doe of being a pedo. 2. The idea that someone being a part of a specific group makes them immune to criticism of bad take or that they can't be confronted on takes that people disagree with is weak. 3. And the idea of suggesting that because Dylan has a specific history, he is supposed to have the same outlook on something that another person with a similar history has. Dylan is a whole person with a collective of life experience that is not solely defined by one incident

[@RJLiams]

@@robinsonc5 No RGR just tried to imply that Doe is pushing pedophilia arguments. Mostly using extreme language to make that point.

[@mayayamato7351]

@@robinsonc5 1) she did, intentionally or unintentionally. 2) Doe didn't even have a bad take. there is a longstanding history of painting LGBT+ people as predators, which riley contributed to, intentionally or not. 3) i know people who were abused and most of them don't take accusations of doing or condoning it lightly. and would not defend people who blatantly flippantly invoke it to hurt people.

[@mugwump9031]

He was "poisoning the well"! Lmao.

[@LDIndustries]

23:00 Sorry dylan, but all people who are against degeneracy also bring up the whole "in front of children" argument. It's an easy way to stand on a moral high ground about while indulging in your disgust response. They say the same thing about trans people, "they're doing it IN FRONT OF KIDS" "they're teaching it TO KIDS" etc. Riley expressly bringing it back to the "you're ok with doing sex acts in front of children" thing was blatant clip farming and a way for a narcissist (or someone who just feels backed into a logic corner) to try and come out of the discussion having a clip to spread to smear the opponent.

[@nelsonth]

Exactly that. If you socialized your kids properly, it should not be a point of concern. Even if someone is breaking widely accepted social norms of behaviour through kink or public sex, or even just going barefoot, that might be some sort of misdemeanor, but it's pure moral panic to say that constitutes pedophilia.

[@ofanichan]

Dylan just kind of showed in the tweets that he doesn't think streaming is truly "real" as he keeps saying people are going after "her irl job" and generally doesn't care that DM lost her twitch - you know. Her job. I just hope they find a cure for liberalism soon

[@ofanichan]

@@xRickAstleyx for what I saw at least, og looked like his community took part in the mass reporting

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

Another point I keep making. Anyone showing their face and it not being a straight up persona and talking about real issues is effected in real life too and that's the majority of the parties involved. People seem to detach as if the internet isn't just a glorified telephone. It's just the next step in communication, unless I'm mistaken and the entire thing is just a giant dnd board and we're all just role playing it has real world consequences.

[@ofanichan]

@@javiervalenzuela8284 the Internet would be cool if it was a gigantic dnd board tho!!

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@javiervalenzuela8284 It's just boomer brain. People did this shit with telephones and mail. They'll do it again for quantum communicators or some shit.

[@lzmunch]

Is it possible that he values both but just one over the other? Apparently not bc the brainworms have eaten all the nuance out of your head.

[@Dubble77D]

Be kind to people, be ruthless with systems. - Michael Brooks

[@VariantNode]

amen, RIP

[@0MVR_0]

Concerning this quote, I have tried to test the boundaries of its application and the validity has been consistent. Treat beings with humanity; be thorough against institutions. Left is best

[@sypherthe297th2]

Michael Brooks was a great person but that phrase has always seemed to be concerning the average person. Not public figures advocating outside of their private lives like RGR. Do you think there are any set of circumstances in which Michael would have advocated being kind to Donald Trump aside from maybe expressing a tiny bit of sympathy if he got cancer or something of that nature?

[@avenuePad]

Except Michael Brooks didn't practice what he preached. Sorry, but most of the time Brooks was rude very shallow.

[@0MVR_0]

@@avenuePad Why exactly are you sorry?

[@Siberius-]

Dylan's chat has got a serious bone to pick, damn. I think Vaush could hold any position and they would still be very salty. Edit: lol they got booted later in the video. Haaay that was a nice conversation. I didn't think they couldn't talk it out and be fine afterwards, which is good for me, because I enjoy when they interact.

[@TheStraightGod]

The only chats that like vaush other than vaush would be his orbiters like xanderhal demonmama etc

[@Siberius-]

@@TheStraightGod - I think you're somewhat right, but I also don't find that to be reasonable.

[@TheStraightGod]

@@Siberius- That's cool. I can't think of any other though. The thing is, most people aren't indifferent on Vaush you love him or hate him no inbetween it seems

[@Siberius-]

​@@TheStraightGod - The problem is that I think the love/hate somewhat binary is largely determined by if one has actually watched his content, or if they only see Vaush content and clips and opinions outside of that. Talking about people who are pretty left leaning here. It genuinely does baffle me to see the opinions people hold in regards to Vaush (at least if they were informed on what they were saying, it would be baffling).

[@AximVidya]

@@Siberius- Absolutely agreed. I've been following this guy for 2 years now and I have yet to see a hater of his fairly represent even a single one of his positions. In fact most of them seem just generally unwell and probably in need of professional support.

[@jerichotroy2662]

I knew Dylan was going to Come around but I still cant overstress how disappointing it was for him to do what he did in that way. Man literally said "I will use the entirety of my political capital to insure nothing bad ever happens to her" and it's the same "We just have to forget about the marginalized groups for a bit. We will come around and pick you up, we prooooomise" and it's kind of super transparent and it causes so much harm in the interim. And the entire time people continue to harass Doe and Mass report DM... it's such bullshit honestly

[@Neon_Plasma]

Don't be fooled Dylan is a slime ball looking to be a career politician. Dude is an opportunist and is defending RBR to try and protect the organization they are part of. Dude tried to ruin Prime in the past for clout.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

unfortunately, this is just how 98% of 20 year olds will react. I feel like I'm the only person online who thinks its perfectly normal for people to react in selfish, myopic ways.

[@jerichotroy2662]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj oh sure it's normal, but there are plenty of things that have been normalized that cause harm. If Anything Dylan has shown a complete lack of ability to react properly if he knows the people personally who are involved.

[@jerichotroy2662]

@@Neon_Plasma I dont honestly think anyone watched this and thinks he came off good. The first part of him "coming around" is getting him to stop being the czar of Maryland and open to Nuance. But he still blinds himself to the real harm done at the expense of his ambition

[@materialdialectics]

@@Neon_Plasma Ehhhhhhh, I think there's a grain of a legit criticism in the career politician thing. But it seems more like he has problems with emotional and unthinking reactions when it comes to people he has some kind of personal connection to. Because that was the main aspect of the Prime thing too, someone he cared about told him about that stuff and then he just went all white knight savior complex without taking time to reflect on anything.

[@lesbeean3517]

I just love how Dylan is all sad that he, a CSA survivor, was being compared to Harvey Weinstein. Meanwhile RGR was calling Doe, a CSA and child trafficking survivor, a literal ped0. Dylan STILL isn't showing enough sympathy for doe. I don't think I'll ever watch Dylan again. this is 2 major fuck ups now. Extremely disappointing.

[@juls_krsslr7908]

I wish people would stop calling this "drama." Somehow, issues like sex/kink shaming, transphobia, and harassment become "drama" when we see the emotional affects these things have on real people.

[@emexdizzy]

Dylan: [gets mad that people are being performatively and dishonestly angry online] Also Dylan: [reacts by getting performatively and dishonestly angry online] Noted.

[@GayFesh]

yeah lmfao, im not allowed to be hyperbolic but he's allowed to call me hamas

[@kstar1489]

Dylan’s chat taking the biggest L already early into the video holy shit lmao I understand why Vaush is being nice, but the person that lost the most was doe, not rgr. I’m sure he agrees with that. Also, Dylan talking about using his political capital just really rubbed me the wrong way and I don’t think he sees the problem there

[@jessicajohnson4992]

Yeah this conversation makes me trust Dylan even less now.

[@RamzalTimble]

Just started but after the Prime and Kat situation, I’ve pretty much didn’t trust him too much .

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@RamzalTimble my distrust started with that and this latest drama has cemented it.

[@DemMyHouser]

As soon as I saw what he did to Prime I stopped watching him, he has a disgusting habit of jumping to conclusions and being reflexively combative when people criticize him.

[@jessicajohnson4992]

@@RamzalTimble yeah I let that slide because I know hes young and bound to make mistakes but this is a little to much for me. This isn't making a mistake Dylan knows exactly what he's doing.

[@FelisImpurrator]

43:00 Finally, Vaush gets around to the correct position on social norms: Critically examine them and don't take them for granted. It took a while, but this is why I still broadly support Vaush despite the impulsivity common to his initial takes: He is willing to identify and face his biases. That's more than most will do.

[@robinsonc5]

So this just sounds like... I love vaush because he makes claims and takes that are initially stupid and poorly thought-out, then backtracks to more reasonable ones.

[@bewing77]

@@robinsonc5 well, even if that’s a bit harsh, reality is that in the online space, most people aren’t even capable of that, but sticks to whatever position they first took because the optics of changing ones mind is weak to most. In reality of course being able to change as new facts become available is a sign of intellectual integrity and maturity. There’s a big difference between making a hasty take on something even though one haven’t first made sure to have most of the relevant facts at hand, which is pretty bad and making a take based on all the facts available at the time and then, as new facts emerge re-evaluate ones position, which is commendable.

[@AximVidya]

@@robinsonc5 it's incredibly telling that you would think that's a reasonable paraphrase of what OP said. but VDSers gonna VDS ig ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@sundalius]

"To be clear, she asked if that was your take, Vaush" This single sentence shows that Dylan didn't say a single legitimate thing this entire conversation lmfao

[@LDIndustries]

25:58 DAMN Dylan has some insane christian cope posting happening in this chat: "These arguments would never come up if they didn't know RGR was Christian. He and DM drop passive aggressive digs at it constantly. Now she's an alt right conservative transphobic who doesn't deserve a job. Cancel culture at it's worst" - (name is unreadable) I'm pretty sure at least Vaush never attributed RGR's moralistic view of sex to Christianity in their discussion or afterwards. This also ties in with how tons of Dylan's chat is saying "oh so she's a CONSERVATIVE TRANSPHOBE now?" which is totally not the point.

[@dudeman5303]

Yeah there was another person i saw in chat who failed to get it too, a person can *have conservative takes* and still not be a conservative. It's not like a single stance usually determines every person's ideology, most people have an amalgamation of different things that sun up their own identity, it's not as simple as they want to make it seem. I mean, Riley has some good takes on some things - I actually used to watch her content fairly often a year or two ago, and in this instance we are saying she is bad on this one take, and that this specific take is a conservative one (and other bad takes of hers often are regarding ppl more left than her too, I don't care for the way she talks about lefties in a lot of ways). It's been a few years but unused to be a far right conservatives POS, and I left that crap behind yet I am still dismantling a lot of those terrible beliefs to this day. Different things regarding social issues, I mean realizing I was sexist, racist, and xenophobic -, that was all very intense and was difficult for me back then as a conservstive. It's a process. No one is this one cohesive thing that consists of "only the good ideas", people are complex. It's never as simple as people want it to be, and they seem to want to be reductive just as Riley has been because they have serious issues with the people clashing with Riley on this. It's a personal issue. I hate labels around leftist politics a lot because you tend to get written off so easily by people outside of the left, but also those within the left - all based on a little descriptive word that goes before "socialist" or "leftist", whether it be that you describe yourself as a democratic socialist or libertarian leftist, or whatever. Labels are nice when you want to have a tangible and basic outline for your beliefs that you can build off of, but other than that they seriously hinder so much because it always comes with others writing you off for it. They don't want to hear what anyone is saying, so they seemingly just hit their empathy "off switch" for that moment because it's convenient.

[@mally6101]

Never thought Dylan was like this tbh. Losing more and more respect for him as time goes on.

[@Ghee_Buttersnaps]

It looks like Artimy is being censored... with a flatteringly large 'bar' I might add...

[@soccerruben1]

My thoughts on this: - Glad that Dylan Burns admitted that he went off that rant without knowing the context of the discourse, though I agree that he’s still a bit blind towards RGR in terms of overplaying her IRL advocacy and not see how her presence online is an impediment for progress. - Despite my disagreements with how Dylan approached the situation, I’m glad that Dylan talked with RGR with how he disagreed with her take on the discourse, though I would think he should watch the ENTIRE debate between Doe and RGR. - I believe that if RGR ever comes back with an apology to Doe, she should kick off two prominent members of her Discord, Kalvin Garrah and Gami. Those two POS are nothing but toxic people who made this discourse surrounding sex acts and foot fetishes as well general Kink at Pride stuff much worse with stuff like mocking Doe (like how Gami implied how Doe should Roblox Itself in her Twitter handle). - I believe RGR should take a LOOOOOONGGGG break online, pondering, praying (assuming she’s religious based on that cross necklace she wore on her profile pic), and focus on her IRL stuff. Then come back with an apology.

[@iceman5117]

RGR owes absolutely no one an apology. If anything, Doe owes an apology for trying to TOS her

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@iceman5117 No

[@evilishida909]

I’ll never know how gami hasn’t ben kicked off Twitter. Shes super toxic in every way

[@Ghostigul]

@@iceman5117 what? Doe was streaming too was it trying to kamikaze?

[@tequilasunset8628]

@@iceman5117 braindead take lol.

[@ryri51]

"This person does good activism/organizing" has been the main justification for protecting abusers and rapists throughout left wing and liberal organizations since like the 60s. It is extremely short sighted and has ruined every organization that has defended an abuser on those grounds. No matter how much good work you do once something like this gets to the wider public of activists and organizers and other groups then they'll ostracize and cut out that group, isolating it and destroying it by making sure no one else ever joins or works with them. No one is a good enough organizer to excuse destructive and abusive behavior, as everyone else will make sure your group pays for protecting that one single organizer. Again, I've seen this happen to several organizations and it functionally destroyed them once the wider community found out and stopped working with them.

[@wynoglia]

Love Vaush in this talk. Wholesome and based 10/10

[@izzyreads2930]

Sometimes I forget how young Dylan is, but whenever he acts like this I'm like forcibly reminded of it holy shit (also other young people don't get mad lmfao, I'm like barely older than him, but he's kinda coming off as more of a self-righteous teenager defending his friend than perhaps he would want to)

[@Kropothead]

Yeah, his age doesn’t invalidate his good takes, but he can be really immature at times and that’s a problem for anybody with a sizable platform. Smart people can still be taken advantage of by bad actors, and I’m not sure he gets that.

[@DiThi]

12:00 Gayfesh never said "the enemy", he said OUR enemy. It's an important distinction because the people included in "our" heavily depends on interpretation.

[@GayFesh]

There are a lot of people I consider enemies that I could also see eventually reconciling with, but that they are actively doing harm to me and mine. Dylan seems to take any criticism of his friend to its hyperbolized extreme. You say Riley's rhetoric puts children at more risk of abuse? He says "you're comparing her to a Hitler." You call her the enemy? You're Hamas. Vaush nailed it on the head: hyperbole for me, but not for thee.

[@sjwarhammer4039]

Libs don't like calling out their enemies. They still have a boner for bipartisanship. Like, "If we can just get the Republicans to reject the Nazis in their party we can reach across the aisle and work with good neocons like Mitt Romney." This is why they are weak. Dylan can't see anything short of literal Hitler as an enemy. To me, that is the delusional, larpy position.

[@acezero5705]

"[RGR] is probably the big loser here" Vaush, no, doe is, rgr did this to herself, doe is the victim here

[@JackgarPrime]

Loser and victim aren't the same thing. Doe was the victim, but she didn't come out the loser because this got her a lot of support and sympathy, while RGR was the loser because it turned her reputation to absolute shit.

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

@@JackgarPrime It did a good job honestly. Solid arguments, tried to keep rgr from being slippery (only so much any one person can do there), didn't let her lie and get away with it until Riley started muting at the drop of a hat, etc etc. Doe did pretty gud. Riley was the loser-est loser. Doe is still the biggest victim in all this

[@maxsmart9116]

Terminally Online Chronicles Part IV: The Settling

[@DrippyWaffler]

honestly I've been so bored by this lol

[@Daye04]

In Vaush' defense, though: he's paid to be terminally online

[@Nessa-939]

Yeah, I watched like 5 minutes of the first video on this "drama" until I realised it's actually totally pointless so now I'm just waiting for it to be over

[@AndaraBledin]

How to Apologize: 1) Acknowledge the transgression as specifically as possible 2) Apologize for that transgression 2a) Do not try to excuse yourself 3) Explain how you intend to make corrections in your behavior (this might include some explanation of why you did it, but only as it relates to how you will try to change) 4) Give the person owed the apology time. 5) Stop.

[@bharbarawyrstwaemasyn8741]

I'm not convinced. All this time and RGR hasn't considered for a split second what she was doing was beyond unhinged and wrong. The severity of what she did (slander) is used as an excuse to commit violence on queer people. Her constant use of children as an umbrella is beyond insufferable and disgusting. No decent person will EVER do that. Yea, go tell your friend to "reflect" dylan, but I'd be really uncomfortable as a queer person to have you and rgr as political board members if this is how things are going to unfold in the future.

[@jordant7207]

It's extremely odd how offended Dylan is by the Harvey Winestein analogy, but isn't bothered when RGR was directly accusing Doe of using Its own history of sexual abuse in a purely manipulatory way

[@DiThi]

Good faith and bad faith don't mean anything anymore.

[@uninstaller2860]

"You are bad faith! And you are bad faith! You're all bad faith!"

[@user-up1op3kz9q]

Damn Vaush was really still in this debate

[@user-up1op3kz9q]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p Yeah that was pretty fucked up, no idea why you're just bringing that up now though. You've had years to care about it, why wait until someone *else* does something shitty with their platform to get fired up? It almost feels like you're using it cynically to detract from [insert creator you like] doing something problematic of their own

[@entertain7us148]

I really like Dylan. I think his level of community involvement and education for his age is seriously impressive. I think it’s natural to make mistakes online especially when close friends are involved, doubly so when you’re only 20, and I respect him for his ability to reflect on his mistakes and engage in healthy self-critique.

[@rickydarrah5538]

Absolutely. I don't trust a person that isn't wrong every now and again

[@InfernoBlade64]

@@rickydarrah5538 He literally tried to cancel PrimeCayes because he did not vet his gf’s accusations

[@rickydarrah5538]

@@InfernoBlade64 he reflexively made a stand and was wrong. Jesus don't u think its dumb that all someone has to do is make a mistake and everything good they've done is null and void

[@MadameMe]

@@rickydarrah5538 Some mistakes are ok, but he literally almost made an innocent person kill himself. Then being a smarmy brat about it when prime was obviously scared after the situation, while Dylan not only drew and took away his veiwers. He also was taking all the money he could possibly take. In reality Dylan is as selfish as it gets.

[@RJLiams]

@@rickydarrah5538 I'm sorry since when are pushing false allegations that almost caused someone to take toaster bath a mistake that's worth ignoring?

[@rozemorgaine1886]

Interesting how out of all the things he lists he did wrong, defending a victim shamer wasn't one of them.

[@TheDeekins]

Dylan literally using the same logic as Caleb Maupin to defend RGR here, that lack of self-awareness is wild

[@recordatron]

I feel like RGR has spent a bit too much time around Destiny to the point where being technically correct, in her opinion anyway, trumped her ability to see the emotional rake she was walking into with this discourse. It takes a real disregard for human relationships to live the Destiny life which I don't think other people are really equipped for.

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

How was she technically correct?

[@FelisImpurrator]

Neither of them are technically correct in their bad takes though. Even if we're going all objective trauma psychology and shit, Riley's "transactional intent" thing was bullshit fueled by her Kantian brainworms. The way it's understood in scientific literature is that CSA is rarely about sexual attraction to children and almost always about the feeling of power the abuser gets over someone who's put in a situation of pure helplessness. The cruelty is the point. Still, holy fuck. I'm socially inept and insensitive and even I know that was an incredibly headass way to even try to convey something like that.

[@recordatron]

@@javiervalenzuela8284 In her opinion I mean, I'm not saying she is correct.

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

I think they're both so lawyer-ly and logic obsessed that they don't realize that pure, technical logic is not always a smart way to approach issues. As ContraPoints said in one of her videos, "Can you logically prove that you love your children? No! And the attempt to do so is as degrading as it is futile." You can't logically prove what a sex act is. Even in court, they have to fall back on a general opinion. RGR seems like she just can't accept this, everything has to be logically provable, even if it becomes totally detached from reality and people's actual experiences.

[@ArcaneSunset]

When I heard the first reaction of Vaush to the DemonMama/RGR/Dylan drama I was taken aback by how distant he appeared, I'm glad he had that discussion with Dylan and finally expressed some of the issues I had with how everything went down. I still am disappointed because I doubt Dylan would come around and change his position. RGR's conduct online has been irresponsible and inflammatory not only to Doe, but also to DemonMama because of that cursed gender debate. There's nothing to "think about" and there's no "public statement" to make - she had time and she has repeatedly made her positions and attitude clear, she needs to bite the bullet. Period.

[@mwharton838]

It is really damn tragic to see how little Dylan is willing to acknowledge the harm RGR has done. Doe has been severely emotionally harmed by her including mocking it's past and it's disgusting. That Dylan can't acknowledge this comes across MASSIVELY as unsympathetic and putting friendship above actual victims.

[@mugwump9031]

Doe needs to sue her for defamation.

[@Shtoops]

Honestly, Dylan is super fucking lucky Vaush didn't go hard on him. I think that if Vaush had been paying attention to what RGR had been doing over the past 6 months to Doe (and to a lesser extent DemonMama) he would've pushed back against Dylan way more. Dylan should fucking count his blessings that he didn't get fucking annihilated.

[@BasePredations]

Beyond any of the details of the debate, RGR just seemed like a ridiculously unpleasant person. Doe could barely get a word in without "Hold up!", "Stop!", "Pause!", and similar constant interruptions from RGR. Not to mention the frequent muting. This is not how reasonable adults have conversations. I'm actually surprised this wasn't called out more, but I'm not familiar with RGR so perhaps it's par for the course?

[@cloudstrife746]

Vaush > maupin

[@ShookieShook]

I haven't heard from that person in so long. I hope they're doing okay.

[@Wyrdangus]

@@ShookieShook they’re still around

[@UnorthodoxIndividual]

Vaupin > < Maush

[@TheBasedGreeg]

Vaush Maupin

[@sleepyhead8681]

@@Wyrdangus They're posting it outside Vaush threads...

[@Fakery]

If you want to know of Riley's position is built on disgust we could ask her how often she thinks people go barefoot primarily for sexual pleasure, and if it would be bad if people go barefoot secondarily or tertiarily for sexual pleasure

[@emilycrow8278]

Ironically, I kinda saw this drama fire from a year ago. RGR has a huge problem with trying to lawyer brain every debate she's in. Where she pressures her opponent to come to terms with a no nuance, absolute, definition, that she can use to argue morally against. Meanwhile, she's always hyper vigilant of "clipping culture" that she reacts caustically when she feels like that might happen, giving her a major blind spot that her community itself conducts the same way to other's. Demon Mama is a hyperbolic, inflammatory, person that decides her opinion on something, and then will spend the rest of the conversation trying to prove that her initial exaggerated opinion was always the secretly correct one. I thought it was only a matter of time before either of them did something to get "cancelled" over.

[@FelisImpurrator]

I think that's not the mark of a lawyer, but rather of an irresponsible lawyer. Her tactics would probably be kicked out of an actual court though.

[@hgbguy]

rgr one is on point but isn't the demon mama read here kinda just everyone to some extent i don't think shes as hyperbolic as shes made out to be a lot of that comes from clips and she has to clarify the context when peoples only info is 30 seconds of a whole explanation of missing context. inflammatory can be true but i've seen her start convos fairly civil and if the other person is just willing to talk then will remain that way its mostly when she notices somebody trying to clip chimp her or just refuse to understand her actual opinion. i mean everyone thinks their position is right or they wouldn't advocate for them shes also moved on some issues after a talk. i saw the initial rgr debate its still a vod on demon mamas channel rileys one is edited and i t was clear rgr just wouldn't let it go when demon mama wanted to end the call because they werent expecting a debate from a friendly convo and wanted to talk off stream and said as much just after the call ended. also demon mama got banned because of a hateraid and mass flagging from brigading while on her discord said not to brigade or speculate who did the raid and will ban anybody who does to me it feels very clear that demon mama and rgr are not as irresponsible as each other though i do agree the one point brought up here was a big miss from her.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@hgbguy DM was pretty intensely bad with Rose Wrist though. Rose was very much trying to engage in good faith (as he always does, even when he's wrong) and DM was using some incredibly toxic rhetoric against him completely unprompted.

[@GayFesh]

@@FelisImpurrator Rose Wrist literally tried to clip-chimp her on an offhand comment she'd made in a non-argument and was like "aha you just said the opposite here!" he was literally farming for that shit, and then he went straight to Hanz afterward, who literally advocated for DemonMama's Twitch channel getting taken down.

[@hgbguy]

@@FelisImpurrator can you give an example because i really don't see what you're talking about with toxic rhetoric.

[@a.u.n.]

I feel like it’s immature for Dylan to use RGR’s “good outside work” to defend her actions online. Someone can have a bad take about one thing and do good work. People are multifaceted. Friends should also not blindly defend each other, but gently criticize in order to help them grow.

[@the_REAL_Pearl_]

So when's that public statement coming, Dylan? It's been months since this all started. When's it coming?

[@visha3661]

tbf to Dylan’s chat, a lot of those names I don’t recognize. i think there were a lot of outsiders who just hate Vaush there. i only recognize a few name. these are new people.

[@midnightnavigator]

Pretty sure most are dggers and rgr diehards supportin him

[@herec0mestheCh33f]

Something a lot of people who think trying to get riley removed is some kind of drastic overkill are not considering: False accusations of pedophilia ruins innocent lives, and can get people killed. They are very dangerous and need to absolutely be applied correctly. And you should be willing to eat severe consequences if you fuck up and your attack hurts someone who didn't deserve that accusation. Riley was willing to bet up to someone else's life to satiate her emotional aversion to kink. Given the severity of her actions, and with the whole launching a months-long campaign to try to apply that to someone else, I think attempts to remove Riley and replace her with an equally competent person so as to not reduce potential for activism is fairly reasonable. Those were the stakes she waged. She took a fat L. Even if, realistically speaking, it'll never happen. (I mean, actual conservatives with massive audiences call everyone they don't like a pedophile for equally stupid reasons and nothing ever happens)

[@imacds]

Ngl, I think that this weird obsession against "trauma dumping" people recently made up is ableist as fuck. I speak about abuse and trauma in relevant forums openly so it can be known and remedied in ways that make both parties be better off and happier. Sure it is also valid to not bring it up at improper venues if they are meant to be happy and talk of trauma would kill the mood, but that should be the exception not the rule. Keeping trauma hidden as a general rule sounds like exactly the culture an abuser would want to further to get away with their abuse. It really feels like a crybully plot; "I'm actually the real victim because I was mildly inconvenienced by overhearing 10 seconds of someone else's strongly lived experience, fuck that other person who clearly needs help I will be hostile to them instead!". I even saw a psychologist tweet about trauma dumping being bad... like isn't that literally their job? Do they seriously expect people who pay them seeking help to hide their trauma levels instead of honestly seeking help?

[@Kloxbyn]

RGR? More like KGB. "WE WILL ASK THE QUESTIONS!" Enjoy that dad joke.

[@Siberius-]

Thank you, I enjoyed it immensely.

[@Rucarlos]

The Bar is not one to be swayed or overreact by retweets. They know their own ethics better than any of us, anyone who's afraid of repercussions is only recognizing the gravity of RGR's actions and positions

[@thatguy779]

I don’t want this to sound like a ‘gotcha’ or like some snarky high horsing, but this evokes memories of 2015-2016 era discussions around the old anti-SJW’s who’d do or say something ranging from off color to just outright heinous and people would come to bat for them with the defenses of “well they aren’t all bad. They can change/reflect. This shouldn’t cost them their job/platform/etc”, things like that. And none of this is to be taken as an opinion one way or another, just the vibe this discussion is giving me this far

[@greycoloris7665]

I will say this much though: RGR is not really outright comparable to actual right-wingers. She certainly isn't all bad, she certainly has the ability to reflect, and it's true that, while a take as bad as hers in this case should be a serious reminder not to just take 'Yaaas Queen' her every noise - this much needs to be considered: Just because she was unhinged and went after Doe's entire social status doesn't mean there is any 'justice' or utility gained by being precisely as unhinged in return and going after RGRs whole platform and livelihood. Bc: 1) Other than, like, idk, Shapiro or Sargon or.... Blair White or smt, her platform is >generallysome< consequences, just for justices sake, it's not moralist internet people who should get the opportunity to administer that justice. Those are exactly like RGR, just coincidentally on the proper side in this case. Which is why they would go way beyond anything warranted by what ultimately is just one really bad take on the internet and treat her with no regard to the differences between her and the people that treatment has been devised for: Blair, Ben, Carl ad Charlie and such. Honestly, if people want to make smt better about the world they should get over the resentful, zealous focus on revenge some call 'justice' and actually make things more just by supporting the victim, Doe. Spread her socials, give her publicity, argue the proper take... money maybe, if you got any? All of those are real and make at least smt up - damage to Riley is primarily a fig leaf in comparison, if it goes beyond what's appropriate in neutralizing the direct consequences.

[@nightlydrugs6927]

I love that Dylan is talking to a disembodied voice while there’s a pic of Artemy on the screen.

[@eliperilpresidente]

Dylan’s chat is so bias and brain poisoned one person actually stated that vaushs h8 for RGR stems from RGR being a Christian. Her faith was literally never brought up in this convo

[@bekkayya]

19:58 RGR: "you're just not listening to me let me explain" Dylan: "im just coming from a point with more information? i tried to explain it but nobody seemed to listen..." im sensing a pattern. weird. edit: also, trans panic defense is absurd shite, but to imply that Riley is leading the charge on lgbt civil rights by banning trans panic in maryland, of which there have been two cases ever (this is still horrendous, but the point stands), is absurd.

[@sasak369]

23:40 - RGR said it’s a consent violation of adults to see someone barefoot (whose partner is into that) as well. The focus was mostly on children because sexual abuse of children of course is generally viewed as being an order of magnitude more heinous.

[@InfernoBlade64]

And how is that p3d0philia??

[@nelsonth]

Your vision should not police my dress, in public, especially when it's something like sandals or bare feet. That's the reasoning of conservative fundamentalists like the Taliban and Christian right.

[@sasak369]

@@nelsonth I'm a little confused as to if you and the other respondent think I'm in agreement with RGR, because I'm very much not. I stated this, because Dylan said if her argument was about a blanket opposition to "degeneracy", she wouldn't have made it specifically about the children, but she said it applied to adults as well. I was responding to Dylan's poor defense of her.

[@sasak369]

@@InfernoBlade64 I don't think it is, not by s long shot. That's what RGR said, not me. Dylan seemed to think RGR's opinion applied only to doing things in front of kids and I corrected that she opposes wearing things your partner finds attractive in front of anyone.

[@bigmclargehuge1170]

I wish I could say this didn't negatively color my opinion of Dylan and especially his community, but it sure the fuck does. I hope he takes a break.

[@nervous_greenfish]

how can anyone take this person seriously. "it is fanatical to call RGR the enemy, therefor I will liken you to hamas."

[@akmiec]

The worst part about this is RGR, Dylan, and the community they've fostered will probably learn nothing from this whole fucking mess.

[@midnightnavigator]

After the way he handled the Primecayes situation and now this..I don't think I can or will support Dylan anymore. Which sucks because I love Hippy Dippy, he's a great moderator and super smart. I hope he doesn't become corrupt when he dips more into offline politics but he's most definitely displaying the signs.

[@midnightnavigator]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p Remember that time that I wasn't talking about Vaush or his past at all, and I was expressing my disappointment in Dylan? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[@uncurled520]

So leftists often mistake their political alignment for a friend group and I feel like Dylan is making the opposite mistake here. He is aligned politically with RGR when it comes to advocacy in his state so he is getting the "friend in need tunnel vision" that someone would use to defend a close friends' personal issues. But he doesn't seem to get that the issue here isn't merely a personal one and even if you are friends with someone, you can and should call them out if they are harming you and others politically. Even from a purely self interested standpoint, his LGBT advocacy group now includes someone who simultaneously has demonized people dressing "sexy" in public while saying that buying a child to rape isn't a sex act. And he defended this rather than put out a statement clarifying the issue or having RGR apologize. That just isn't what he should be doing if he is prioritizing RGR's political advocacy future over their friendship.

[@lallig8860]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p ah the classic whataboutism that pretends like Vaush doesn't consistently & regularly criticize shoe HARD AS FUCK on his stream & in his videos, he literally has hours dedicated just to shitting on her & telling her to change her mind

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

Phew good ending. Dylan was really the one person out of these interactions I was genuinely like "Noooo the hill! Come away from the hill!"

[@comandantegorrion7271]

I knew I was right to stop watching Dylan after the PrimeCayes stuff, this is bad.

[@midnightnavigator]

If I didn't unsub then, I would now. I wanted to resub just to unsub XD

[@UnorthodoxIndividual]

I like Dylan, but that twitter shit was kinda cringe. Glad we settled this though :)

[@stoneman472]

Twitter is a fucking hell site. It's especially bad for people like Dylan who has a hait trigger when defending friends

[@Neon_Plasma]

Settled? Oh you sweet summer child this is the internet

[@secretxxstars]

32:20 Dylan, for anything that it's worth, I and a few people in DM's chat said we thought that you were probably responding to Ahrelevant's comment, but even we weren't sure because the whole "can people just be normal please" gets used to dunk on neopronouns in general so it really wasn't entirely clear even to those of us who figured just by the flow of conversation that you were referring to Ahrelevant's comment. it's understandably super clear to you what was meant, but I just wanted to say that even for people who didn't automatically think you were responding to the original comment that we still couldn't be sure. so I think anyone thinking that was honestly misunderstanding, if it makes any difference.

[@GayFesh]

yeah, after dylan explained it, I went back to watch it in full context and it still seemed ambiguous even after he gave his defense. i believe him that that's what he meant, but like, that was bad rhetoric.

[@stuartsmith4369]

I think if a person thinks they arenot being understood, they should be asking clarifying questions to isolate the specific point of incomprehension.

[@eliperilpresidente]

Wow Dylan’s chat is more brain dead than I thought

[@javiervalenzuela8284]

"Then why was it in the presence of children" because that's the same way it's always approached especially when trying to make it more reasonable. The whole argument was about in public, in the presence of children was a way of leading to in public.

[@deadrottenbird]

cool setzer pfp

[@blargh3428]

Yeah RGR;s whole point was that children could be there in a public space not that they were. I guess Dylan missed her saying that and how this started or he is being a dishonest door knob

[@ndnerd1781]

It took a bit, but props to Dylan for switching his chat to emote only

[@JiveBoogie]

There is a difference between; trying to do something, coming short of doing something and failing to do something. Both in specific situations, as well as, broad or overarching goals. I have no issues with RGR as a person and I am ignorant of her past accomplishments, when it comes to the trans community. Having said that, i feel that the debate/argument between Doe and RGR significantly eroded RGR's image in the grand scheme of things. This is my personal opinion and I look forward to changing my position through the virtue of time and action.

[@donnytonny730]

The first 10 seconds alone were enough. Thanks for the content- glad we got this even though it wasn’t on stream

[@medes5597]

The only reason Dylan is sticking his neck out for RGR not losing her job is because he's terrified it'll happen to him because he has political ambition. So transparent. Edit - for the record I liked Dylan before this drama and expected him to come out of this debate well but this basically put me completely off him.

[@uninstaller2860]

I didn't get that impression at all.

[@lou9511]

That’s a giant reach

[@medes5597]

@@uninstaller2860 I did. His strongest feelings were solely about her not getting into IRL trouble for saying objectively harmful things. He was most concerned with that. More than any of the other stuff and even his excuses for it "oh Riley is a good voice" he refused to back down on when Vaush pointed out that if anything that made such calls from the community more understandable, not less.

[@uninstaller2860]

@@medes5597 Wait, your first comment said that Dylan was only doing this to protect his own neck

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@medes5597 agreed he's made it clear his only care is his ambition to climb the political ladder and is defending her to keep the the organization protected as its a stepping stone in his political career.

[@iceyroo]

Dylan simping for RGR is pathetic. Still looks terrible.

[@iceman5117]

RGR was right. You're only saying that Dylan is simping because she's a woman

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@iceman5117 No

[@cosmictraveler1146]

@@iceman5117 What.

[@thomasallister3446]

@@iceman5117RGR’s a disgusting reactionary

[@Cupcake33443]

@@iceman5117 Its sad that most people don't see that RGR was actually right. I think it's because she wants to be lawyer and a lot of progressives see that as a more well dressed cop.

[@giantwallrus]

Calling RGR's board seat as a "job" is disingenuous. As someone who has been dealing with 501c3 attorneys, a board seat for a 501c3 is nothing like a board seat of a c-corp and the biggest difference is you can't be paid. So stop acting like her being booted from the board would effect her "job" which is weighted to the idea that she is paid for being a board member(and if she is getting paid, definitely talk to a 501c3 lawyer bc according to my attorneys, that is a big no no)

[@itsirrelephantman]

Riley advocating for some kind of thought police was something I wasn't expecting. She just came across as a prude who has a real problem with the word 'fetish' for some reason. Hopefully everyone will be able to move on from it.

[@meadowsweet5507]

This is a hot mess. Being so glib about false accusations of pedophilia is reprehensible. It's like he thinks the pedo accusations only stay online and don't affect Doe's career or it's real life, but freaks the fuck out once falsely accusing someone of pedophilia gets even slightly close to affecting Riley's career. This is shameful.

[@asd-ti7mx]

Doe never even added it's real name to the conversation. Do you think it hands in its Twitter handle when applying for a job? Do you even know what it works as?