This is NOT Scarlatti (but I was fooled)

Bach Fantasia BWV 906
Pianist: Rosalyn Tureck

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

Bach was a voracious collector of scores and compositions. What are the chances he did not know of Domenico Scarlatti's 30 Essercizi? Because of the close dates of publishing and similar style, I think it is highly likely that Scarlatti influenced Bach here.

[@herrickinman9303]

There's nothing similar in their styles. This work has Bach written all over it: melody, harmony, chromaticism, counterpoint --- all Bach. Based on the watermarks of the paper on which the oldest extant autograph of BWV 906 was written, the likely date of origin is 1728-1730, which places it about a decade before the publication of Scarlatti's "30 Exercises." Applying your logic, Scarlatti must have been influenced by Bach.

[@LuizBHMG]

Are you talking about chances? Bach was in fact inspired by Scarlatti's Essercizi when he wrote this Fantasia, according to the German Wikipedia. Especially by the Essercizi nº. 12 in g and the nº. 18 in d. Also most of the Goldberg Variations, but especially numbers 5 and 20, were written in the style of Domenico Scarlatti, as documented by Rolf Dammann in 1986.

[@herrickinman9303]

@@LuizBHMG No, I wasn't "talking about chances," whatever that's supposed to mean. I was refuting the speculation that BWV 906 was influenced by Scarlatti's "30 Exercises." Based on the watermarks of the paper on which the oldest extant autograph of BWV 906 was written, the likely date of origin is 1728-1730, which places it about a decade before the publication of Scarlatti's "30 Exercises." As for the Goldberg Variations, they have nothing in common with Scarlatti other than the Italian hand-crossing found in nos. 5, 14, 17 and 20. All the variations use the same fundamental bass found in the aria. Any supposed influence of Scarlatti is superficial. The 6-part Ricercar in Bach's _Musical Offering_ was influenced by the style of Frescobaldi, but you won't find any works of Frescobaldi that sound like Bach's Ricercar. Bach's _Italian Concerto_ for 2-manual harpsichord was influenced by the Italian concerto style, but that doesn't mean that his _Italian Concerto_ is an arrangement of an Italian concerto. All composers have their influences. But no one who truly knows Bach's style would confuse any of his keyboard pieces with those of Scarlatti. One composer or another might have composed this or that work in the style of this one or that one, but so what?

[@LudwigVanKate]

@@herrickinman9303why did i bother to read the whole thing？😂❤

[@herrickinman9303]

@@LudwigVanKate I hope you learned something.

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

This is one of those pieces where Bach himself tried to avoid his own style, perhaps to cater to a larger audience so to say. The Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue, Italian Concerto, some of the WTC2 preludes like the F Minor or G-Sharp Minor ones and of course this piece (and the amazing unfinished fugue) all showcase a proto-galant style that of course heavily inspired his sons who would eventually become some of the first Classicists

[@herrickinman9303]

Tried to avoid his own style? Tried to cater to a larger audience? The way you talk, you'd think Bach made his living as a freelance composer, peddling his music in music stores and on street corners, begging people to buy his music. On the rare occasions when Bach published his keyboard music, his audience, according to the title page, was always the same: connoisseurs of music. Not lovers of pop music. Bach made his living the way most musicians of his time did: he worked for noble courts or for towns. Few musicians of his time worked for the stage. Generations of Bachs made their living the way he did. Bach achieved the highest social status for musicians of his time when he became a Kapellmeister in 1717 (to Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Koethen). He also enhanced his social status when he was appointed Royal Polish and Saxon Electoral Court Composer in the 1730s, after dedicating the famous Kyrie and Gloria to the Dresden court. The earliest extant autograph of BWV 906 dates from 1728-1730. Bach was already composing in the galant style in the French and English suites, which predate BWV 906. You'll find many examples of the galant style in Bach's Leipzig cantatas. You also find it in Brandenburg concertos #4 and #5, which are minor variants of concertos already performed at the court of Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Koethen, when Bach was the prince's Kapellmeister (1717-1723). Bach also used the galant and empfindsamer styles (Berlin school) in the 3-Part Ricercar (which is an elaboration of the fugue he improvised before the Prussian king and his guests) and the 3rd mvmt of the Sonata in _Musical Offering._

[@lucadeieso4815]

​@@herrickinman9303he said nothing wrong. Clearly Bach wanted to demonstrate that he could compose in another style: the style of the new generation of composers, just like his sons. It’s not surprising that W.F. thought that the fantasia cromatica would be considered "a masterpiece forever". Even here in this fantasia you can recognize Bach, but a much more different Bach than usuale, just like is different in the Italian Concerto and Ricercare a 3. And for sure Bach tried to cater to a larger audience too, just like what happened in 1738, when he composed a cantata "completely in the new galant style", that unfortunatly is lost and that was very different from his usual, more complex, style. This happened after he was critized by Sheibe in 1737 for his style that had "too much art". So yes, Bach sometimes, not very often, wanted to demonstrate that he could compose in every style, if he wanted too.

[@herrickinman9303]

@@lucadeieso4815 You don't know what you're talking about. You can't even spell _Scheibe._

[@Eliza-yd7fi]

@@lucadeieso4815 I think ricercar a 3 is improvisstion he made during the meeting with the king.

[@lucadeieso4815]

@@Eliza-yd7fi yes for sure dear Eliza

[@wuwupiano]

All those chromatic, highy independant but simaltenous melodies are pretty Bach though.😊

[@leoribic1691]

I love this piece so much. Have you ever heard the fugue? One of the most amazing ever. The fact that it was one of his last and was left uncompleted on a deceptive cadence (G7-AbM) upon his death makes it so much cooler, too. Seriously one of my favourite pieces of all time. Edit: It actually isn't one of his last pieces. It would've been written over ten years before his death; the comment correcting me is underneath this one. Appy polly loggies!

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

I have heard the fugue. It's great. I just try to keep my videos as short as possible without sacrificing the integrity of the music.

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

It‘s not that late if I remember correctly. I think he wrote it in his mid 30s, most likely already in Leipzig. The final subject entry really make one think that the fugue was about to end on the A-Flat Major chord

[@herrickinman9303]

@@user-fu7zf4ck9z 1) Based on the watermarks of the paper on which the oldest extant autograph (the one without the fugue) was written, the likely date of origin of BWV 906 is 1728-1730, when Bach was 43-45. 2) Based on similar research, the date of the second extant autograph (the one with the incomplete fugue) is around 1738, when Bach was 53. The 2nd autograph is a fair copy, which suggests Bach had completed the fugue in an earlier draft, which is now lost.

[@herrickinman9303]

Your notion that the fugue was one of Bach's last works is just a notion, not a fact. Here are the actual facts: 1) Based on the watermarks of the paper on which the oldest extant autograph (the one without the fugue) was written, the likely date of origin of BWV 906 is 1728-1730, when Bach was 43-45. 2) Based on similar research, the date of the second extant autograph (the one with the incomplete fugue) is around 1738, when Bach was 53. The 2nd autograph is a fair copy, which suggests Bach had completed the fugue in an earlier draft, which is now lost. 3) In the early 1740s, Bach began Art of the Fugue. 4) Bach died in 1750, age 65.

[@leoribic1691]

@@herrickinman9303 That's amazing! From the sound of it and because it was unfinished, I always just thought it was left unfinished for the same reason Contrapunctus 14 was left unfinished in Kunst der Fuge. I was silly to assuming it without ever actually looking for information on its age. Thank you for your comment!

[@Whatismusic123]

No way Scarlatti would write this, it's too competent.

[@Varooooooom]

The harmonies were very clearly Bach, but I gotta say, the rhythms/structure made me feel like this was “Bach in the style of Scarlatti” haha. Not surprised you were fooled, that’s so cool.

[@Whatismusic123]

Strange that people think Bach writes only in 1 style, ffs there's a stylistic difference even amongst different forms, a bach chorale is a seperate style to his preludes, fugues, concertos etc. And even they consist of different styles within themselves.

[@isaacbeen2087]

ur SO smart

[@afrofinka]

0:22-0:25 this is surely one of the reasons why Glenn Gould had immense admiration for Rosalyn Tureck

[@StyzeSoulmaker]

No baroque composer comes close to the craftmanship of Bach. That's not to say his music is better than other composer's, that's subjective. The style and taste of other composers might appeal more to someone. But in terms of pure craftmanship Bach was just the best, and this piece could not have been written by Scarlatti.

[@mtv565]

Bach is ranked top 1st supreme composer, his music is the best! 2nd best is Mozart, 3rd is Beethoven. The remaining composers are ranked below the 3 greats.

[@musiclover148]

I recognized the score as Bach the moment I saw it, because I worked on the piece as a kid. I always thought it sounded like one of Bach's styles. I'm grateful to hear it again in this brilliant performance.

[@CembaloMontes]

Serious researchers speculate that this is actually an early CPE Bach or WF Bach since the style points more towards the galant 18th century. I could understand that this may make someone think about Scarlatti. That person recognizes galant style without knowing it.

[@mrJohnDesiderio]

As an aside, Handel actually cried when he heard of Scarlatti's death.

[@anigiuran109]

Lovely music ! 😊😊😊❤❤❤

[@herrickinman9303]

How could anyone think this is Scarlatti? This work has Bach written all over it: melody, harmony, chromaticism, counterpoint -- all Bach. Based on the watermarks of the paper on which the oldest extant autograph of BWV 906 was written, the likely date of origin is 1728-1730, which places it about a decade before the publication of Scarlatti's "30 Exercises."

[@user-vg4zl2dr1h]

Fantastic!

[@feinberg4625]

Oh cool, I played this for my grade 8! A lot harder than it sounds xd

[@user-fu7zf4ck9z]

Indeed. This piece is more Chromatic than the Chromatic Fantasia

[@ianpiano17]

I also played this for my grade 8! Don't remember it sounding anything like this though haha. That was 1998 - same for you? For years after I could never remember what it was and couldn't find it anywhere.

[@feinberg4625]

@@ianpiano17 Nah I played it a couple years ago. I guess the same pieces circulate haha

[@markaddison3596]

I also played it around a year or two ago for my grade 8! It is indeed a very tricky piece lol

[@fabiograssi670]

Are you ssure is JSB?

[@derby2510]

Glenn Gould recorded this. Kind of a spooky, deliberate version.

[@benr7882]

It sounds like the St. Matthew’s passion

[@garrysmodsketches]

Continuity of harmony, characteristic melodic writing, treatment of dissonances, thick texture, etc. This is unmistakably J.S. Doesn't sound anything like Scarlatti.

[@herrickinman9303]

I agree. How could anyone possibly think this is Scarlatti?

[@isaacbeen2087]

@@herrickinman9303 Why do you keep making the same comment over and over again on the same video?

[@herrickinman9303]

@@isaacbeen2087 Maybe I'm replying to different comments. What's it to you? If you think I'm going to be changing my posting patterns to suit you, think again.

[@isaacbeen2087]

@@herrickinman9303 who does that 😭

[@herrickinman9303]

@@isaacbeen2087 I do, you fool.

[@theorymaster6310]

It doesn't sound like Scarlatti.

[@mtv565]

No way Scarlatti would write this because it's too complex, even though it's 2 part harmony only!

[@ks2091]

so many of my friends were playing this song for ABRSM grade 8 last year

[@brentonsmith8921]

I was gonna say then who is it but the second I heard it I knew it was Bach lol

[@handavid6421]

very funny!

[@markshilov7067]

Nothing Scarlatti-like as for me. Strict form and good counterpoint - as well as these typical cadences kinda borrowed from French and English suites. I couldn’t say I value Bach lower than Scarlatti - quite the opposite: they both mean a world to me and they are extremely different, pursuing different ideas in music throughout every piece. I’d suggest looking at Telemann’s music more closely - it is a really worthy treasure of a pure joyful delight.