"This Is Why WoW PvP Is So Bad" | Venruki Reacts

Original video: • This is why WoW PvP is...
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[@Jdtv689]

"same 300 ppl on 20 chars" - thats the best wow pvp summary;)

[@kekk9365]

On 20 each you dumb dumb. Very smart you are Student, indeed hehe.

[@Wrex90]

A high skillcap in PvP games/modes is great and good. But it's bad when you have a way to high entry level for new players and that is the case in WoW PvP. You have to set up your addons/interface, farm gear, learn dozens if not hundreds of abilities, have like 40 keybinds and then get stomped for a hundred hours or more until you are at the point where you got some basic skill and maybe can finally have some fun. It should be no surprise to anyone that people are not willing to spend their precious freetime on something like this. Not to mention the incredibly toxic PvP community that makes it impossible to form teams if you don't have any kind of prior expereince. And while solo-shuffle exists, it's not that much better there either. Learning PvP in WoW is an absolute slog and I can 100% empathize with everyone who is not willing to waste their time on this player-unfriendly expereince that's not respecting of their time at all.

[@d4mephisto]

100%. I'm a former original wow pvper, from back in 2004/2005/2006, got rank 13/14 in the original pvp system. I grinded for HUNDREDS of hours back then. And I NEVER touch pvp these days. You're either a knows-everything tryhard edgelord, or you just get FARMED by the other people you play against who ARE tryhard edgelords. If you want pvp, do not do it in this game. It's bad.

[@gie5834]

As someone who has never faced the lvl of difficulty in jumping into PvP that you and others have faced, I will say I would be okay if they removed most macro capability from rated PvP environments. I've seen macros for rogues and just general arena macros provide big advantages vs those who aren't using.

[@cenciqt6045]

@@gie5834 its not that serious. Yes that one outlaw macro you seen is a bit crazy but you only see something like that 1/1000 games the real problem is just bloat of abilities and keybinds

[@Rizzerio1]

You forgot about leveling every class, gearing each class, and understanding all their base buttons, as well as, pvp talent options. Then when a new big patch comes around, you have to figure it all out again.

[@gie5834]

@@cenciqt6045 Nahh, theres another macro that im referring to that is broken AF.

[@nickolasroper3237]

I love Venruki. I love his eternal optimism, his passion for the game. Although I’m passionate about the game and love playing it, I’m quite the opposite. I’m the eternal pessimist. However, despite how good he is, how jovial he is, I always feel like he copes so hard for pvp that it’s hard for him to see the forest for the trees. I know this is weird to say, but when Xar stopped playing retail, he being one of the best pvprs in the world, I knew right then pvp was done. Not that I hang my decision on one person, but I can see the writing in the walls. I feel like Ven just isn’t ready. It’s like this. I’m an ER/ICU nurse. As a 15 year nurse, I’ve dealt with thousands of dieing patients. There are individuals that see their family member dieing in the bed and they REFUSE to see what I’m able to see so easily. Momma is dieing, in fact she’s been dead for a week, we are just keeping her artificially alive. That’s Ven. That’s wow pvp.

[@mekz22]

His Venruki online personality is built on top of WoW PvP. Without it there's no Venruki so I can't exactly fault him for having hard time to let go. There's no future for "traditional" WoW PvP. There's no way to fix it anymore, that ship has sailed. The amount of coping I see amongst retail PvP crowd is quite honestly pretty sad to witness.

[@wtbskilllololo]

@@mekz22 Xaryu's online persona was more or less WoW retail PvP aswell + the little fitness stuff he was doing on the side but that never popped big or he never inteded to grow it outside of his personal life. Im not sure if he only did it for his Mind's sake or also from CAREER standpoint(Cause im 100% sure hes way better career and finance wise cause he went Variaty and Classic route + still playing Retail when theres new stuff). Venruki could've done the same thing and probably succeed i wouldnt say im agreeing him with his PvP takes completely yes the game have a problem and its not the gearing or leveling side. It has a bigger problem and thats mainly tied to gameplay it takes alot of time to learn stuff and to adjust yourself to retail PvP if you're never played it before and people are not willing to commit this time now as a streamer and long time PvP player Venruki probably doesnt relate to that at all or feels it but dont understand completely and thats because we all played WoW PvP in a different time where the world was different we had more time and there werent so many good PvP games to choose from where you can just que and play.

[@sulfurrr2117]

Xaryu stopped pvping in retail because he gets too competitive and it was interfering with his stream/life. WoW PvP isn’t bad, it’s better than it has been for a while. It just needs a major refresh

[@wtbskilllololo]

@@sulfurrr2117 Yes i noticed they dont allow him to yell alot as before. But im not sure if thats entirely the reason but whatever it is im happy for him for branching out and finding bigger success overall even tho sometimes i find him to be abit of a blizzshill.I dont disagree PvP isnt that bad but i look at it from someone whos played it for many years and i can adjust easier than someone who would just start playing and have to do all that jazz overall to learn it faster.

[@sulfurrr2117]

@@wtbskilllololo yeah I agree, idk how they would go about it but it needs to be more simple and easier for casuals to understand

[@AliasXP]

i think a lot pvpers who watch these vids find it hard not to take personally. if wow is the only game you play in your free time then sure you aren't gonna see the game as dead or super hard to understand. this is the only game where i've spent more time looking for people to play with than actually playing the game lol, usually that only happens in games when you're so high rank theres barely anybody to match you up with. a lot of streamers haven't had to go through the struggles of LFG due to them playing the game nonstop for 10+ years. because the game is so complicated, people just decide to drop group when it starts going bad. if it wasn't for solo shuffle id probably only really play chill 2s for 1800 transmog and call it a day lol

[@tj8606]

That league video was 10x easier to follow. Ven doesn't know what's happening because he doesn't play the game. Basically though, a button is pressed, it does meaningful damage, and the ability isn't spammed 30 times over 5 minutes for someone to eventually die. Button is pressed, dmg goes out, move/dodge and wait on cooldown or use one of your other 3 abilities. Your positioning in team fights matters MORE than just spamming your abilities as fast as you can. That's hard for current wow players to understand. When a spell went off in the league video, I could tell who it was aimed at, and if it connected with the target. You cannot say the same watching wow pvp. As mentioned, everything in wow cleaves, abilities are SPAMMED for 5-10 minutes in an arena match and eventually someone falls over. Why? Not sure, someone probably didn't have one of their 40-50 abilities up at that specific time. Which button? We will never know unless you have thousands of hours playing the game yourself. Easy to follow? Yea.... nah.

[@Boss-ot1iy]

Wow is easy to follow. If your eyes are that slow in keeping up with the animation and the key being highlighted that's being pressed, that's a you problem. Old people seriously gotta stop thinking the game is hard to follow because your brains are slowing down with age. All games are easy to follow

[@tj8606]

@@Boss-ot1iy Sure some can find it easy to follow. But the comparison to league was laughable. If you don't see that, then you are delusional. So Ven can follow everything happening in wow, but can't tell what's happening in league? Laughable comparison imo. I literally laughed out loud. I play wow, but to compare the two is an absolute joke. If wow is so easy to follow, record you playing a game, and showing it to a family member for a "reaction", without giving them a play by play. Then ask them what happened. This will open your eyes a little bit to the actual issue.

[@Boss-ot1iy]

@tj8606 That's literally the same with any game. When you play games like Val, CS, etc, people tend not to understand what's happening with 0 knowledge about it. What kind of idea was that that you came up with? That goes without saying. Even doing something like a jiggle peak or counter strafing, and anyone with 0 knowledge would wonder why someone did that. Good lord, with you wow people and your mindset with thinking wow is complex. The objective for wow arena is actually extremely simple, too. Wow has more abilities, but they're simple: cc, defensive, offensive, and movement. Didn't take me long to understand the game when I got into it in Dragonflight, and I haven't played for 2 years by that point (cause SL sucked), and a tiny bit in BFA, and I was gone since Wrath. Even starting from scratch in Wrath was simple. Skill expression and ceiling in wow is lower than actual competitive games, and playing arena literally requires common sense as map awareness, and knowledge is almost useless (the only thing you can do with a map los and other stuff that requires lock gates etc). There's no avoiding abilities, outside of LoSing. Game is simple. The big reason why people don't play is simple: no money, no big player base, and it's very old. For other people that don't care and just want an enjoyable gaming experience, yall are toxic and push away those types of people. The community is the biggest reason this game isn't as big as it could be.

[@tj8606]

@@Boss-ot1iy When someone is playing CS/Valorant/other games, I can tell what is going on. They don't have 2 targets, shooting a bullet randomly at a target behind them at their "focus target". They shoot where they are pointed, it's easier to understand and follow for an OUTSIDER (the people who we want to ultimately try and join the game so it can grow). As far as the toxic community being an issue, I agree with that. Weren't you claiming people who couldn't follow the game were just getting "old" literally 2 posts ago? I'm simply saying, test your theory. Show a family member a game of wow, and ask them what happened. There is always stuff in ANY game that veteran players will understand that an outsider wouldn't understand. The question is, can the outsider follow what is happening? IF YES, they may find something appealing about the game, and may find a reason to play, thus the game GROWING. IF NO, chances are slim they are going to be like "fuck yea, lemme play that game". The idea that wow is "old" is also invalid imo. Are CoD, Battlefield, ect old? They come out with a new game as often as WoW has a new expansion. Issue isn't the games age, it's the fact that watching it, no one wants to play it because they can't follow it. No matter how much YOU may understand it. An outsider has NO CLUE what is going on. You have macros to cast spells at any of 3 targets, don't have to face the target for many of them (not saying this is an issue, simply showing how it's hard for an uninformed outsider to even follow what's going on in any capacity, and less likely to play).

[@beingofstrange]

the funniest part is that ive played wow pvp since 07 and cant follow whats going on lmfao yet i dont play league and could 100% tell whats going on. anyone saying thats a me problem is major coping. ive even been 2400 in wow arena. still couldnt tell u shit about whats going on when watching it. its a complete joke

[@HighestRatedPlayer]

Easy solutions: 1: PvE Talent tree / PvP Talent Tree. 2: Abilities have two tool tips. E.g Ice Lance: Ice Lance deals double damage against frozen targets, "Hitting a second target for 50% (Only useable in Dungeons)" 3: Have ability 2 options to pick from. E.g 1: Ice lance 100% crits on slowed targets, 2: Ice lance hits a second target for 50% damage 4: Straight remove some spells from PvP for example how Soulstone is not allowed in rated arena/RBG.

[@raviel498]

It's so easy right. Just separate the two things.

[@HighestRatedPlayer]

@@raviel498 would be easy to code.

[@dcort100]

@@raviel498it is actually. Put in the work and boom you have change, but blizzard doesn’t care anymore

[@Sindrolik]

This is how Guild Wars PvP works and it feels MILES better than WoW. Balance it as a separate game mode. If players can pick up a totally separated battle Royale mode, they can pick up a separate PvP mode.

[@MIngalls]

LoL was ironically way easier to follow (and I've played WoW, never played LoL). When watching AWC, if the announcers weren't telling me what was happening, I would catch so much less. I've literally brought friends to try WoW pvp, three different people. Every single one of them stopped playing because it was too much. They liked WoW, just not PVP. It was too complicated. You have to learn what every other class is doing (x30 buttons x 3 opponents in an arena). Addons are required to even understand and play effectively. Enough said. When people talk about stuff like button bloat they seem to only think about playing the character. That's manageable. But knowing what opponents are pressing matters too. The simple fact that we need addons tells you there is way too much going on.

[@martin9202]

That's true for the whole game... and not just PvP... If this is the problem nobody would play the game... You don't need to know every single spell of every class, the same way as you don't need to know every ability of every mob in M+... yes it helps, but it's not necessary... and for the important things you have addons anyway everybody uses DBM for example... that's the same for PvP just different addon to tell you that somebody popped a CD... 🤷🤷🤷

[@MIngalls]

@@martin9202 Yes, the whole game is bad. I agree. Good point. Add ons have to play it for you. Great design. However, you realize pvp is way less scripted than PVE, surely? Alot more difficult because of it? Of course you dont need addons, but opponents have the advantage on you if you dont. Which goes to Asmons point about fairness. And why does literally everyone use them? Because the game is overly complicated. Its not even an opinion. If it wasnt the case we wouldnt have omnibar, omni cc, weakauras that tell you whats happening because you cant tell otherwise, etc. I dont know, sometimes i think wow players want the game to die lol. Thye've played for so long they cant see it.

[@MIngalls]

@@martin9202 I mean.... holy shit. Im literally telling you I've had friends who enjoyed wow. My brother plays wow daily. They cant stand PVP in this game.🤷‍♂🤷‍♂ The game has to grab new players or its going to die once your decrepit ass dies. If the game wasnt overly complicated, you wouldnt need add ons. PVE having add ons isnt a defense lol. Youre just saying PVE has the same BS problem. It is FAR less noticeable of a problem in PVE because its way more scripted than PVP is.

[@MIngalls]

@@martin9202 It's just kind of baffling because, like, you're sitting there in 30-minute solo q (because no one is playing).... ven is talking about 23K people playing (as if that's anything), and yet, just keep defending the game. Like no improvements allowed lol. Dont anyone dare make it more accessible! Keep it so complicated that third-party add-ons are needed. To say they aren't "necessarily," is just ignorant lies. Like someone's going to be ok with someone else having an advantage over them in pvp. Its not necessary to play basketball with 2 arms either.... If add-ons were removed, the game would get a lot more simple very quick because everyone would be complaining that they don't know what's happening. Yes, add-ons are used in PVE, too, and I believe that's also bad. But PVE is also alot more scripted. If you dont have an addon in PVE, you just learn and adjust next round. The boss is going to do the exact same thing at the exact same time next round. Its a horrible comparison.

[@martin9202]

@@MIngalls I'm definitely not defending the game... I believe the game would be better without addons, but it would need to be much more simplified... I'm just saying that's not the main problem why PvP is fading out...

[@creepiona5460]

my main issue with pvp is that you basically need a seperate keybind layout compared to high end pve. i gave pvp many tries over the years and i never managed to really learn it properly since my brain is hardwired to tab-targetting and clicking nameplates for targetswapping and interrupting/stopping casts. in order for me to be efficient in pvp i feel like i need custom arena target macros for all my ccs and kicks, maybe even some dmg spells. and i cba relearning all my keybinds just to play pvp remotely to the level that i do in pve. also a completely different addon-set, weakauras, nameplates im not used to... it's just too much different from high end pve for me to be bothered to even give it a try anymore.

[@minorrus9807]

True, it literally takes several hours to just write arena123 macroses and figure out how to position them on ur bars for like druid or pala. And thats for dps. For healer i think its much worse. The difference between pve heal and pvp heal is drastic. So we get 30min q time. And all those 20 additional macros keybindings are useless everywhere except arena, what a joke.

[@wtbskilllololo]

Look the only difference between me and you is that i have a few focus macros for kicks and CC but i still alot of the Tab Targeting(Players only) and click nameplates here and there. I recently hit 2100(i know thats average considered among many) and i dont even use WA's i have Omnibar but my habit to look at it is long gone and i barely look at it beside kicks lol. Yes getting the right binds for Arena1-3/Teammates and Targeting enemies is way better to get used to in the long run but you're not required to in any form.Its not the right way to play but as you im also used to it cause its bit akward to getting used to the new targeting binds epescially since im no longer using a MMO mice those 12 buttons were helpful compare to the basic 2 i have which can kinda work for like atleast 4-6 binds in general but its something xD.

[@sulfurrr2117]

You don’t need all of that unless you’re pushing super high rating. If you’re good at nameplate swapping to kick, you’re going to be fine.

[@Raikenden1]

@@minorrus9807 u can pretty easily play till 1800 rating where you unlock elite set version with ret pala without any macros xD or addons

[@arcadialive4265]

Yes, there are too many stops and goes, debuffs and modifiers for PVP to be fun. But personally I still enjoy it over PVE, which is become even more complicated these days to the point it feels like a job with all the grinding activities for gear, rep and achieves. PVE does not feel like a game.

[@GuyerTown]

ok but wow pvp needs improvement i love it but its so hard to get people into it with all the bullshit hoops and addons they gotta hop through

[@Drualeaf]

I don’t really believe addons are an issue in PVP. I think one of the biggest issues is people using third party software to kick for them.

[@nightknight7748]

@@Drualeaf They do play a massive part as the amount of information given is insane. Like the ability to tell when enemies use/ have their major cooldowns ready , if they have their trinket off cooldown, kick timers, defensive timers, stuff to warn you when you have certain modifiers and all the other stuff is such a huge advantage and it gets even worse if you do battleground pvp where addons basically give you full UAV support with the ability to see exact locations of non stealthed enemies as well as health % and all the previous stuff mentioned before

[@Drualeaf]

@@nightknight7748 yeah you have a good point there with those types of add ons. I haven’t used PVP addons since I started playing years ago.

[@GuyerTown]

@@Drualeaf remove that and you still have the addon that just tells you when to kick

[@dj_jx]

The addons ruin the PvP, every 12 old can install addons and follow them. They will never learn to play with their own brains. There is no need to think about your next move, addons will tell you what to do.

[@evg3nius]

23000 shuffle rounds? Why didn't he say how many lobbies LOL. Because 1 lobby = 1 match = 1 rating change at the end. So in other words 3863 games played. In league there is probably 3800 games starting every minute.

[@user36003]

The thing is shuffle is only 1 mode without bg/2s/3s/epic bg/brawls/blitz also wow is mmorpg(more then only pvp)also world pvp exists and dueling also with sub to play , league is free to play and has basicly only 1 way to play it.

[@Kaemonarch]

@@user36003 Haven't played WoW in a while, WoW PvP even longer, but I watch videos by time to time (like this one). And I seen people doing whole KZbin videos of 20-30 minutes while sitting in Queue... That's not something you want ever in any game, to have to wait 30 minutes to just play the thing you wanted to play.

[@user36003]

@@Kaemonarch how can you know how much time someone sits in que in a video if its edited boy , i never wait more then 10m for bg que and even less for blitz que , solo que i am 2.2k cr right now on main on alts que pops almost instantly its the higher rated lobbies on my main 2.2k+ you sit for 10-15m in que if you are a healer its insta que. Btw remind me how much you sit in que for a group for heroic/mythic raid or a M+10 before you find group.

[@ryancook9395]

I hate to say this but leg is way easier to understand than wow by far.

[@icaanul]

and it sucks.

[@Nemenon]

One major thing I dislike about Asmongs takes is how he speaks with such blatant authority as if he's an expert on everything he talks about, even when half the time he has no clue but his hivemind chat just goes along with it because they are equally clueless.

[@xeliha1880]

Uncertain people tend to be over confident in order to maintain their credibility and to project a false higher knowledge and expertise above everyone else in the room. Asmongold sometimes he hits the target with his philosophical approach in certain areas but most of the time he is talking nonsense and probably he knows that too but pretending long enough can trick even those who know otherwise

[@Drualeaf]

@@Nemenon it’s called a cult. lol

[@viniciusbigotto8723]

Agreed.

[@FlyontheWindow]

I agree. Asmongold is really good at articulating topics and getting reactions out of people and playing on that with cunning enthusiasm. He never really says "ah" or "um" and he's always flowing with confidence with him talking so much like a motor mouth. He makes most reaction videos others would react to go for another 30 minutes or in some cases even an hour. He can talk longer than paint takes to dry. He has an intelligent philosophical mind, but his biggest undoing is that he can be the biggest know it all, and he's a wet blanket at times on topics that he thinks he knows better than the rest. His old persona I miss with just being a toxic wow asshole player where he used to be the "Asmongold" guy. But he's still entertaining and I enjoy watching a lot of his takes. Some are really hit and miss though and he just needs to learn to listen more and know when he's out of his depth with the knowledge of topics. It's hard to admit that when you have that god like complex (light yogami comes to mind lol based idea of justice).

[@icaanul]

Nailed it, OP.

[@0wnh3r03]

The only reason why I log into the game is PVP (arena more specifically) and every time the game forces me to do PVE I end up cancelling my subscription.

[@Vooz_WoW]

Luckily everything we need for pvp in next xpac will be contained in pvp. No more pve for pvp! I'm very excited about this. Also, I think A LOT more people will be participating in the new rbg game mode. Something that isn't taken into account are the many people who only play battlegrounds. There are a large number of people who like battlegrounds and dislike arena, so I'm predicting a large uptick in overall participation in comparison to DF.

[@cci9459]

Did you wven play Dragonflight? 0 pve involved in pvp gearing. Get real, grandpa...

[@MrSherhi]

You are playing wrong game, you should play some moba.

[@TheDavvelito]

Amen bro

[@tomselby24]

big same

[@andrewshandle]

Asmon always comes across as a bit of a DB, but he's not doing a very good job of putting 2 and 2 together. MoP PvP was wildly successful, and then Blizzard really screwed the pooch in WoD, so if it was popular in the 4th expansion, how was it doomed from the start? I do actually agree with him that DF PvP is needless complicated, so I do wish it was more like MoP, but the entire reason the PvP isn't popular is purely due to decisions Blizzard made over the years, notably that all of those came after the Activision merger, not that players don't like it. We have far too much evidence from vanilla through MoP that PvP was popular.

[@Rizzerio1]

Eventually a game falls out of being culturally relevant. Even if blizzard made all the right choices, new genres would steal the new generations away.

[@MrSherhi]

Asmongold actually explained why this happened many many times. You are obviously the one who can't put 2 and 2 together. Hint: look at other competitive PvP games released around that time. 😂

[@cuneytunsal5422]

Im sorry did I misunderstand? You say MoP pvp is less complicated than DF? You literally had so many buttons in MoP that people started buying mouses with 12 keys on the side. Your regular action bar, 2 top action bars were full and still needed 5 6 spells more in right action bar was needed.

[@andrewshandle]

@@cuneytunsal5422 and people don't have that now? Most players have 50+ keybinds for PvP in DF. The game is way more complicated now that it was in MOP.

[@andrewshandle]

@@MrSherhi yep, sure...Asmon knows everything.

[@martincoombs8167]

I love pvp, I love battlegrounds as many, many do. It does require some changes but they may be coming.

[@spaceanimai5046]

The main issue, at least in my opinion, is the barrier to entry. The ask is to commit hundreds of hours leveling, gearing, and learning just to find out if you enjoy the PVP or not, and if you do this late in a season you're gonna get smashed for weeks until you catch up in gear. Why would anyone want to do this? And its a shame because WoW PVP is fucking amazing when you are on an even playing field, but I think some people will give up before they reach that point. In league or CS2 or CoD, you'll find out if its fun within the first 30 minutes, and you can quickly decide if you want to commit the time or not. Back in the day playing WOTLK with my friends in high school, we used to play on the PTR realms just so we could instantly have a lvl 80 with full relentless, just to try some different classes out and do arenas, and it was some of the most fun I've had doing PVP in the game.

[@cc66bb44]

barrier to entry is also having a set group you play with.

[@luansantanasantos9135]

pvp isn't just arena and bg, it's also pvp when you're doing a quest and a member of the rival faction comes and gangs up on you, that's how I discovered wow pvp on priate servers, I had never stepped foot in an arena until I started play Retail at the end of the cataclysm.

[@martin9202]

I might be old-school in this one... but, I don't agree at all... PvP is like life... It's not fair... If I spent 100h in pvp I should be more powerful and destroy you if you just started... That's the thing we used to look at people with like PvP weapons and hoped we get there one day... it took hundreds of hours to get a PvP weapon... or even full epic gear... it was something to fight for... it was the motivation to log in and get better because then we can get epic helm, shoulders... and when you got it... you were so much more powerful... and it felt good... you felt you achieved something and now you are more powerful... that's PvP as it used to be... you're doing dailies or farm something, you do it in your PvP gear otherwise you get destroyed by others...what is barrier to entry? join BGs and start getting gear... it's not like you can go to Mythic raid with your dungeon gear...

[@spaceanimai5046]

​@@luansantanasantos9135 Just depends on the person I guess. It can be fun to overcome a challenge if you aren't just getting one-shotted. I think it can be fun and a good way to discover PVP Last week a 67 mage ganked my 62 mage in that Ruby dragon baby area, and I couldn't "win" the fight, but i survived long enough by spellstealing his bubbles and playing defensively that I slipped away, mounted, and escaped. It was fun. But I can also see that if he was lvl 70 instead, he would just straight up one-shot me and there would be no counterplay, and that wouldn't be fun or interactive.

[@spaceanimai5046]

​@@martin9202 I don't necessarily disagree with you as a whole, just when it comes to the PvP side. What you described is part of what makes MMOs magical and I know I felt that way 100%. I just don't think its healthy for a competitive PvP scene. Life might be unfair, but competitive PvP and unfairness are mutually exclusive. If you get destroyed in other PvP-focused games, you know its a skill disparity, not a time /played or money disparity - Play better and you will win. This same concept doesn't really apply to WoW until you are fully geared (or are just evenly geared with your opponent), at which point it 100% becomes a game of skill. So what we are arguing for here, is to just put players on an even playing field from the start for the sake of a healthy PvP environment. Also I 100% agree that the progression of becoming more powerful and having something to work towards is a good feeling, for what it's worth. I just think it can't exist in PvP and have the PvP be accessible and new player-friendly at the same time.

[@CROOKYCRISP]

I’ve played WoW at a high level in all forms of endgame content (glad, multiple CE kills and M+ titles). Honestly the most fun I’ve had PvPing recently was during Plunderstorm. A lot of my PvE mates enjoyed it too and played beyond renown 40 grind. Really hope they bring it back.

[@MrSherhi]

Thank you for this input, most people have this opinion. It's crazy that way simpler and more balanced game mode with nothing required to entry is more desired by PvPers yet 300 PvP elitist claim retail is fine. 😂

[@goldenzbeatmaker]

THE PVP MAKE ME BACK IN THE GAMME EVERY YEAR FROM 10 YEARS :)

[@dgsunny23]

I echo you bro. I play WoW only for PvP... I hope Blizzard listens to the basic requests... Saddles, Bracket ratings of RBGs, Seasonal titles for RBGs...sigh they never listen to us...

[@angrygun7826]

Bro the last person blizzard should listen to is some loser rbg player, you def give off rbg player vibes with that PFP

[@user-re7sm2hr9b]

But why. Litterally there better pvp game of every possible type out there.

[@cloud3997]

​@@angrygun7826 anime pfp talking down on another persons pfp

[@schustererik83]

ive played WoW since vanilla and the sh1t has gotten far too confusing in PvP, its not that i cant keep up, its that its not worth it to invest that much time into something that has almost NO REWARD! there is ZERO benefit to grinding out pvp for 6 months to a year to raise your rank that high

[@viberaider6852]

Gladiator mount is enough incentive for me even if I've never achieved it 😂the legend banner is cool too. The elite sets, im happy wow is still supplying rewards in-game instead of microtransactions like most games (not happy about any cosmetics in the shop as it is)

[@PeterTheDeleter]

Glad title, glad mount, elite set, rank 1 title, solo titles ect lmao?

[@schustererik83]

@@PeterTheDeleter for a game that cant keep subscribers, cant attract new players, and is increasingly becoming a pay to win Cash grab. guess what, who cares if you have all that shit when the servers all shut down because no one else is playing

[@schustererik83]

@@viberaider6852 hence the almost no reward. yea you get those things, but does it really matter when the game dies? do you really feel like the time you investe4d to get that good was well spent? considering some people could literally learn a new language in the time it takes to get 2200+ in wow PVP, that's the effing point. your investing months and years into something that is effectively worth nothing, and the information you retain from it is absolutely worthless.

[@redpandaarara4259]

@@schustererik83 Nah man, im gonna back up the pvpers here, anything you said applies to every game (mode)

[@hiimbiggz4844]

All of the best competitive pvp games every starts every match at the same level same gear same amount of abilities same amount of gold

[@kalamoudi]

Solution is very simple: Have different modifiers for when you are in PvP content (Arena/BG/etc..) and PvE content (M+, Raid, etc...). You can make AoE effects deal less damage in PvP content, and Single Target damage (ex. frostbolt) deal more damage in PvP content. Vice versa for PvE content. I've seen it being done on private servers, and I've done it myself on an experimental server; it is possible!

[@saevitor]

Asmongold's issue with PvP (and engagement as a whole) in MMORPGs is that he associates the value of accomplishment with the aspect of flexing. Back when he was a more active player of WoW he liked to raid until he had the best gear (zero interest in Mythic CE due to the time investment and being to irritated by other players making mistakes - a result of his temperament). When he used to run old content for transmog and mounts, he did it as a "numbers go up" dopamine plus being able to flex one of the most complete collection journals at that time. He stopped doing PvP beyond getting the Gladiator mount and Vicious saddle because he cared more about the cosmetic reward than the pure satisfaction of playing. He stopped playing as much due to him pursuing content he felt would be better for his audience to spectate (variety streaming and reacting), and in doing so he fell behind in the categories that he formerly felt accomplished with. I think it's around that point he became more of a doomer when it comes to MMORPGs because for what he wants to feel like his time isn't wasted, the game needs to be finite whereas MMORPGs are by design infinite. So because he is no longer able to play enough to obtain the same satisfaction he had before he started playing less, he has determined that any attempt to try would be a waste of time because the next expansion/patch with invalidate any progress he made towards collections. Which is why he rarely plays MMORPGs anymore (at least visibly on stream), and instead just does variety gaming and reaction content as that is what his community has come to expect and enjoy. In other words, he's beyond the event horizon and only wants to advocate/support a version of the game that would suit his ability to play the game minimally while being able to maintain the worth he feels in his time investment.

[@redpandaarara4259]

So Venrukuki is o ne of the 2% that actively plays PvP and then hates on the fact people just dont likke it, cuz there´s even less clarity than in m+ and the bloat for pvp is even bigger. Atop of that, PvP in WoW is badly designed for new players. Then shows league clip that has way more clarity and.....look a defender of the 2% people and clown to the 98%?

[@-nerv-3476]

PVE should not exist. PVE is the reason why WOW is losing players. If you like fighting NPCs, you should play 3A.

[@-nerv-3476]

All the popular online games are PVP. There is only one type of person who plays PVE in World of Warcraft: People who can't afford a graphics card to play high-quality AAA games.

[@briarfeather8952]

@@-nerv-3476 PvE Makes wow the most amount of $. and if you think PvP is the main stream face of most popular online games, youre fucking delusional. get some braincells

[@redpandaarara4259]

average PVP player

[@prodPavka]

​@@-nerv-3476 bad take, no proof and receipts, PvE is the reason why wow is still popular. Look at the race to world first. PvP in MMOs has always been tough to balance since it's an MMO and not a shooter. There is no popular PvP MMO at the moment and there never were any that stuck around, they all failed because it's a small niche.

[@Deiwulf]

WoW PvP back in the day was literally the most glorious gaming period of my life. it can absolutely work in an MMO when done right. Asmon is just a living definition of talking out of his arse.

[@daethmer7834]

No, he's absolutely right about that, yeah sure it can be done right, but are you really that delusional to think that blizzard is going to do it right?

[@joelhodoborgas]

Yeah thats a stupid take.

[@emikochan13]

i think we talk shit on pvp because it detracts from the part of the game we like. mixing pvpers and pvers in one game is a recipe for disaster.

[@Viorinx]

And the fact that battlegrounds gear is still not normalized (leveling up) is a massive sign of Blizzard not caring about PvP.

[@Weslicus]

I know Ven showed the LoL team fight to make fun of Asmongold but it unironically was easier to follow than an average AWC match.

[@c2dholla]

saw big snake they are clearly fighting for it regardless wat for. big snake mean big loot i assume.

[@richardpajarillo4136]

Lol yeah that was ignorant af. That league clip is way easier to follow.

[@WhatIfTheories]

Bingo there is a reason why not even WoW players don't care about Arena or AWC. It's just not a watchable product. It's a terrible format.

[@lollardsoflancaster]

And league characters have a fraction of the abilities of each wow spec/class to understand. So him showing this clip and saying I don't know what's happening... that's what some players experience in wow pvp but so much worse

[@BeowulfGaming]

its simple game, easy to get into, hard to master. I dont play league but this is common sense, there 3 lanes, 2 bases, and baron on the river, or nashor, whatever its called and you can see a team fighting it and someone with different color comes in and steals t he kill I mean you have to be mentally challenged to say you got no idea whats going on

[@sirdook2761]

I'm a fairly new player. I have tried pvp a few times and it's super overwhelming. Already struggling with the amount of abilities and then I learned you need additional arena binds for targeting it became too much for me. One other aspect that bummed me out is how different pvp builds are from pve, it's like learning a whole new character. I'll probably give it another go in the next xpac though, but I'd have to ditch the PVE side of things.

[@user-bh8bh2bj1c]

I never really understood PVErs hate for PVP. I primary play for WoW for PVP but I've messed around in M+ and so on with some friends. It was ok but definitely not my cup of tea. Most PVPers just don't care too much about PVE but PVErs resent the existence of PVP.

[@Matt-em1ig]

I’m a casual that likes pvp, because you play against other people, not NPCs. I like the complexity. I also like how the matches are short and I don’t have to commit hours of time if I don’t have it.

[@dj_jx]

The only reason I play WoW is PvP. I've been playing SWTOR for 12 years, they fixed the same problem years ago. Removed "expertise" which was specifically for PvP. They made gear for both PvP and PVE the same. They removed AoE, leaving only 1 or 2 skills to be AoE and that's if you choose to use them. Nobody uses them for PvP. They also removed thousands of CCs and left only 1 or 2 of them and one dispel. In this way, the tank takes over his role, the healer takes over his role, and the DPS does damage. Those who play the game can confirm that PvP pop is very fast. People play PvP all the time. I dare say there are more players playing PvP than PVE, or at least it's an equal number. Devels really made all the classes unique. Skills do not overlap, and each class is unique in skills. There is no addons, there is nothing to show you what to do, you play with your skills and your brain. This is also the reason why there are no children playing SWTOR. And I can also confirm many people who left WoW to play SWTOR. My guild has at least 200. Blizzard needs to learn from other games practices. I doubt that Venruki will read my comment, but if you happen to do so, I would like you to comment and react to Star Wars: The Old Republic FULL MOVIE (All Cinematic Trailers) 2022 Updated 4K Ultra HD. I will be very happy and I really want to see your reaction to this. There's no need to play. Just a reaction video. I guarantee you will make a lot of people here happy.

[@bjartr1801]

I played swtor since launch, getting top3 ranked PvP title and tier 1 in arenas every season for years. Ranked arena PvP eventually literally died, and now they removed it from the game. PvP in the game now is playing the same game modes over and over with little to no reward from what I understand. If they had ranked arenas, I may come back.

[@dj_jx]

@@bjartr1801 Man we have ranked arena in years already working and ppl play it a LOT.

[@Zephyrus84]

is this video Venruki recting to Asmon reacting to Xaryu reacting to Raiku?

[@rumham8979]

Was thinking the same thing... Do yall really need to react to a react to a react video? Getting pathetic.

[@derabc125]

I came from guild wars 2 and the way PVP works there is that its purely skill-based since PVE-Gear is ignored and you have a whole seperate PVP-Gear loadout. You can create a new char, play the lvl 1 tutorial (up to 5 minutes) and then be fully ready for PVP. And while i really like WoW-pvp i always come back to gw2 to play some PVP since i enjoy the game mechanics and beside learning the current meta / new spells you will never have the situation where PVP and PVE collide like asmon said. Not sure where the whole wow-pvp crowd stands with normalized gear in PVP, but i think that would be one of the best changes because the most awful experience everyone knows is the gear-grind before you can be 100% sure that from here on its pure skill.

[@Slat_ppc]

Love these reacts, is it possible to get your chat window in the videos?

[@FLEXXMOBBMD]

Blizzard def needs to take gear advantage out of rbgs

[@becjed1701]

bgs sure, rbgs na its fine, its rated

[@Quintin4407]

How much conquest do you get for an arena win? I'm pretty sure you need like 30+ wins before you are "fully geared" like he is talking about, and for a new player that will be 100+ matches. It sucks to be at a disadvantage for your first 10-20 hours of a new pvp game. Why would anyone put up with that?

[@13samfootball]

You clearly don't know how gearing works. I wouldn't play if I was this dumb

[@user36003]

?¿ when you are honor geared low mmr you get qued on to same honor geared low mmr just l2p thats all dont cry you cant win if you dont know how to play the game

[@Memoop-iz6vk]

​@@user36003 nah you get qued against a dude on a glad mount that's sent conq boxes to his alt while your in greens at 1600mmr lol

[@user36003]

@@Memoop-iz6vk i geared 6 alts during season 4 from 0 , you dont encounter that until you are close to 1.8k rating , also if he is on glad mount and full honor gear he is just better then most people

[@Memoop-iz6vk]

@@user36003 nah he's on a glad mount with full tier and purps with 0 games played

[@kylehofmeister6906]

I'm probably the minority here but pvp was better without Arenas, when the game the was more rock paper scissors in larger scale battles. Your class had a defined role in those battles which added to class fantasy and immersion. It aloud classes and builds to be distinct. The problem with arenas is every class needs to have all the same tools for balance and that makes every class feel the same and boring.

[@Minidinosaur622]

Kinda miss the world pvp happened back then where everybody mounts up and run to enemy's capital city/ pvping in front of some dungeon/ raid's door. Nowadays ppl just having a long queue to get into a solo shuffle to have 'biggest' pvp environment. Also, the pvp throughout leveling maps was fun too, where people get killed and revenge until the war become bigger and bigger. Kinda miss all the old school pvp where there were actually some pvp communities.

[@jdr1767]

for not being popular, why does awc and mdi pull about the same views?

[@redpandaarara4259]

AWC finals had 28k, MDI had 64k so.......yeah

[@BrokenxPvP]

Also PVE players don't watch MDI as much as PVP players watch AWC

[@Krulfar]

Mdi is a ultra-hardcore niche too and still has like triple the numbers.

[@goldenzbeatmaker]

@@Krulfar mdi is just m+ dg , the esier content in wow end game , i do pvp and pve for sure pve is made for the retails player who are bad ;)

[@Krulfar]

@@goldenzbeatmaker wow, what a comment.

[@ImHiDef]

All your reaction here does is demonstrate that WoW PvP is for the niche minority even more sadly, wish it wasn't the case but here we are.

[@-nerv-3476]

All the popular online games are PVP. There is only one type of person who plays PVE in World of Warcraft: People who can't afford a graphics card to play high-quality AAA games.

[@-nerv-3476]

old poor guy love WOW PVE.

[@Kaemonarch]

Yeah. Like when Asmon mentioned the "even playing field", and he was like "What does he mean? Gear? Who cares? You just play and get the gear"... after how long? He is probably always starting with the same/better gear than everyone else in PvP, and then quickly farms the current/new gear while having fun, with all his PvP knowledge practice. Someone NEW, trying to play WoW PvP (for some God forsaken reason), that just spent dozens if not hundreds of hours just to reach the point of being able to Queue... how long does he need to keep playing (and with loser-earning scores/points) to get the gear? Asmon compared it to play Counter-Strike with an Scout vs an AWP. I find it more similar to playing LoL with no inventory slots whatsoever vs people that have them already stacked... If I were to compare it using CS; the new player would only have a Knife and wouldn't be allowed to Run nor Jump. And even then... that player would have better chances of sneaking someone by surprise and killing them with the knife, that your first crappy character without gear nor the correct talents would have at killing anyone in any type of WoW PvP content. Don't forget we aren't even mentioning (on the video nor the comments) that you are expected to know that you have to look for guides to know what spects/talents/stats you need for PvP. There are no equivalents in Counter-Strike.

[@dimitriegm2375]

It's so funny for me to see Venruki angry; I would take his arguments more seriously if it seemed to me that he had an objective attitude and not a defensive one. People who are WoW players and only WoW players lack the perspective to solve WoW problems since their experience is limited to WoW and they don't see or experience other games to bring ideas.

[@Omega613]

From what I gathered. He told people to not take up wow as their main PvP, so if someone is considering it: He suggested that they should play a different game with better gains from your time investment.

[@Admlostinwow]

PvP in WoW is 100% Asymmetrical, class Balance , experience, game knowledge, gear, OP Weapons and Rings from Mythic or Hc Raids and the most broken of all Addons ,weak auras and UI! Yes the game is super unbalanced. What new player is gonna download 1000 addons and weak auras and set his ui straight? its fkn stupid that the game doesnt provide you with the informations you need. I see some streamers where they try duels in TWW beta and they cant play their characters staight cause they dont have the addons and the WAs. How stupid is this?

[@Boss-ot1iy]

Experience and game knowledge? Then, every game is asymmetrical. Addons are nothing compared to downloading specific apps that allow you to change up your pc beyond what Nvidia settings typically allow to lower your latencty, increase fps, and have a colors advantage to see people better. Addons are nothing in comparison to that. It took me way longer to optimize my pc to play Valorant, CS, and Fort at a high level to compete with others that did the same thing. Setting up addons was a simple youtube search because all you need to know is "Cursedforge" and addons that customize your layout without the fear of being tricked into downloading a virus. You definitely never played actual competitive games competitively.

[@Memoop-iz6vk]

I wish they would just ban add-on use! The shit makes the game brain dead and too many ppl rely way too much on it! They call skill a horn going off letting you know your healer is cc'd or flashing lights telling you when to hit another button

[@kipz]

17:10 you were being very facetious in my opinion. the idea that seeing projectiles or melee hits land and their hp going down is harder to understand than a bunch of random buffs/debuffs that no one would ever notice without literally playing pvp for 20 years is laughable

[@CaptainNoobzor]

because it is known that wow pvp doesn't have projectiles, melee hits or hp bars going down

[@geopomelo1890]

League has the same issue of playing against players with 10 years of experience, and class balance can be asymmetrical in mobas too

[@fundingsecured7072]

Its a skill issue, not a game system design issue I'm afraid. I have no issues being a casual glad every season and let other complain about how hard pvp is.

[@rumham8979]

The ego is strong with this one. Your statement is tantamount to "I never caught covid, those hundreds of thousands of others must just suck"

[@markwentzell]

Your lack of understanding to this conversation only solidifies why your opinion is moot.

[@BusanDalint]

They could make an entire new expansion which would be PvP only but delete all addons, macros, and half of the abilities from each class.

[@fofaodacarretafuracao9963]

Delete all addons is a great start

[@Morbidt123]

Sounds like Plunderstorm lol

[@joaomiguel178]

honestly love that, give new zones for the 10 new levels and a few dungeons and yeah

[@MidWitAndProud]

Delete basically everything WoW is in order to make a new game to prove that PvP in WoW works. For like 90% of player base the "fun part" of PvP is getting good gear and oneshotting people. Most people who actually care about fair fights moved onto other games that actually cater to that kind of gameplay. It's dumb, but it's the truth. WoW PvP:ers suffer from some serious beaten spouse syndrome. Still after 20 years making up excuses how he really loves you, and isn't that bad of a guy. Just give him one more chance and it will all work out this time.

[@martin9202]

@@MidWitAndProud Well, that's the point of this game... Equip your character and progress through harder and harder content... if you go with fully geared character to heroic dungeon you smash everything... And this main point has been gone from PvP for a long time... Everybody gets top PvP gear basically for free... so everybody is equal in gear and now fight... But where is the satisfaction from achieving something when your character is basically at max power almost immediately? ...

[@barrykp]

I tried PvP in Dragonflight for a couple of months and I really tried to take it seriously. I reached a reasonable (for me) rating in shuffle. But in that time I was never really able to learn to identify what important things are happening on the screen. Even when you set up all the addons the way everyone does - custom announcer included - it's hard to parse the information. It's overwhelming. And I disagree with Venruki that MOBAs are just as bad: I have much more time in WoW PvP than in DotA and DotA is much easier to follow/get into. It's a shame because I think the gameplay in retail is way better than the old days. Abilities are cool and fun to use. There's just too many of them. If it were up to me I would halve the number of buttons everyone has and make it so that not every class has everything. And even if I don't like it, maybe embrace the idea that each class will have one viable pvp tree...

[@Slammy555]

A couple of examples. The last interaction I had on the pvp forums was an admin saying "we're listening" and quoting a sync queue cheater asking for more benefits to sync queue. More recently the duo queue in BGB serves what purpose? Any advantage they gain is taken from solo queue healers so it's not to increase the number of healers. Just a lot of goofiness at Blizzard, almost like they're purposely destroying pvp.

[@beingofstrange]

its not wow pros that moved over to mobas, since theyre super invested and basically wow is their life lol. but yes, in 2009-2011 atleast half of the wow pvpers went to league of legends. i remember it 100%

[@beingofstrange]

and yes, in mobas u can definitely tell whats going on. theres no abilities in comparison and wow has tons of flashy bs

[@jfeld-gp2qe]

Wow PvP looks fun, but the barrier to entry is just so high if you’re new to it. And the wow community is generally pretty toxic to new players

[@user36003]

Its not... just get honor gear in 2hours and you good to go.. rest is learn and get better like any pvp game/mode why people think they need to get to even 1.8k from scrap and just insta being getting everything without putting effort

[@fundingsecured7072]

Venruki has earned my respect for making this video.

[@Kaemonarch]

WoW PvP, for starters, is not that fun, interesting or even appealing for most people... Add to that that it comes bundled with a game you have to buy at premium price (instead of F2P like so many PvP games nowadays), that also requires you to pay a monthly subscription (and even if it wasn't much, is already an extra step that even requires you to have a credit card or similar way of setting it up), and then you have to level up your character for dozens of hours (I don't care if "Mr. Pro I Been Playing WoW for 20 Years" does it so in 3 hours; that won't be the case for most new players), while learning tons of PvE mechanics that won't have translate or have any effect on PvP (even stuff as simple as the flight paths or questing)... All that to reach at last maximum level and the PvP grounds... Just to do LITERALLY NOTHING while you get CCed and Killed non-stop without being able to deal 10% of their HP to the attackers... for HUNDREDS of hours while you learn all the skills that are hitting you, and install all the addons, and all the auras, and search for talent guides, and rotation guides, and PvP guides... and get a minimum gear... All of this... To START playing PvP on an "even" field where, while you are still getting owned, at least you started to be able to "react" and do some damage before going down... Compare that to just installing CS2 or LoL (both free BTW, while WoW still sports out double-payment AND in-game shops), and just click "Join Match" and immediately start playing and learning relevant stuff. WoW PvP is something that does not interest AT ALL to MOST of the WoW playerbase and that, as of right now, has way too many barriers to allow in PvPers that could be interested in giving it a try or even play it. If Blizzard doesn't change things, PvP population will keep going down forever. You can't bring enough new people with all those problems (pay full game, THEN subscription, THEN level up, THEN gear up, THEN addon up, THEN start to learn) only just to get entirely crapped on for 100 hours until you start being able to, not compete, but PLAY (up to that point you were doing requisites to be allowed to play, or being a PvP Target Dummy for others). BTW, if someone is reading this, ask yourself: Would you play WoW PvP if it gave no gear/mounts/rewards at all? If the answer is no... is because you don't enjoy the game. So many people (specially in WoW) got addicted to being "rewarded" for their time; that they forgot what is playing a game because is fun to play it. I seen this soooo much in people Raiding and playing Mythic+; and while I stopped playing WoW PvP even longer ago than I stopped playing WoW in general; I'm sure that's also the case for many people in WoW PvP. They do it for the gear/rewards, to kill time, while not truly enjoying it.

[@xeikai]

So, as someone who's pvp'd quite a bit in wow but i am not very serious. The issue i have is that there is so much going on and damage flying out everywhere and as a healer it can get overwhelming. I think damage should be toned down and fights should be more reliant on healer mana.

[@robthomas793]

Go play cata 😂😂 this is exactly how it is and it's just horrible

[@Paul-zh2jp]

i think part of what he's saying about mmo pvp is that it's at odds with the design goals / systems of mmos (gear progression mainly). gear progression feels like an unfair advantage. you already have people being insanely good and the game being complex. gear being an additional advantage that people have makes me not want to play it. when i play pvp, i want it to be as normalized and balanced as possible, with only skill determining the outcome. i know that's not what everyone wants, but it's why i don't play mmo pvp anymore. i don't have the time to play a lot, so i need to be able to jump in and be competitive immediately

[@Rizzerio1]

Even if that was so, you’d still have class imbalance. You’d have to level a new character and learn it. It’s not as simple as a moba is as just choosing it before the match. Your forced into a strict meta in a randomized queue, at least in league, you get picks/bans to change it up.

[@miquelcristino]

@@Rizzerio1 Thats why MMO PVP is at the lowest it has ever been. That's why MOBAS were invented and became so popular. It's basically "you can have the same experience as a wow arena from the get go!" That's why I got into SMITE so much, 3rd person MOBA, some similar mechanics etc

[@user36003]

Then mmorpgs are not for you in pve you are also in disatvantage because people can overgear or undergear you also , if you want all to be even playing field "templates" go for battlefield or COD or LOL or velorant, mmorpgs not for you.

[@evAngeliis]

At 4:35 they mention an uneven battlefield. But Arena is meant to be the place where everyone "rocks up in their best" to duel it out. The only uneven thing about it is people yet to fully gear themselves. No one else's fault.

[@wooptidoo3525]

What about all the best enchants embellishments etc? And on top of that the gear. If the average person wants a pvp experience, they don't necessarily want to put in the tens or hundreds of hours, first leveling then farming all the gear, then farming all the gold for the best enchants, and then after all that effort finally feel like they are not in a disadvantage. Which is why Asmons point that MMO PvP is an oxymoron makes sense. In order for that argument to be false, the game would have to work like this: Log on, queue for arena, the game gives you a max level class that you choose with preset gear and optimal enchants, everyone has fixed ilvl in rated arena. This is an even battlefield. Basically everything you do outside of the arena, should be completely inconsequential to the outcome of the arena match.

[@jaymzOG]

It's not the ex WoW pros specifically that went to play mobas, it's that a large amount of the pvp playerbase switched to other pvp games. So it's rare to see new blood climbing the ranks in WoW now because it's mainly seasoned players (whether they're famous or not).

[@stoutside]

Dont play league at all really but that clip had much more imminent excitement just purely based on positioning, fog of war and objective play... in wow just have no idea if or when something will happen without any contested objectives apart from obviously the deathmatch the game is just a boring back and forth stalemate basically until the cracks appear... and i just find the commentating hype doesn't really match the gameplay maybe only really when there a 2v3 or 1v2 situation, but the game isnt built to create those exciting endgame situations as it does with league... maybe would be cool to see a battle cry buff system when a member of your team dies.

[@bosssavage3325]

They need a WoW PvP Server for PvP only and PvP only changes. Just like how Plunderstrom was its own entity COMPLETELY separated from the main game, PvP should be as well. Let PvP players login into a PvP only game. Make fun PvP events and incentives. Make its own progression system and its own sandbox. Has its own whatever. Give PvPers their Box and let that Box be what it needs to be for PvP players to be happy. It’s very simple, especially since I just saw a video about how WoW is making many different game mode ecosystems to keep players within the WoW ecosystem. PvP players need to get their own completely separate game mode balanced and designed for them.

[@vexial12]

Problem is, is that the game you want was designed by people who want to play pve. And you’ll never get what you want because they don’t care to make what you want. Like the other guy said. This is a mini game in a bigger pve game. You invested your time into a PvP aspect of a pve game. You should have invested that time into an actual PvP game and you wouldn’t be feeling what you’re feeling.

[@flyingkiwi8441]

​@@vexial12WoWs original philosophy was that PvP and PvE should go hand in hand. A lot of us got into WoW because of that philosophy

[@vexial12]

@@flyingkiwi8441 but wow is an mmo. It’s an oxymoron for it to be PvP

[@BluuSkyz]

Is the war within looking any better for pvp? Less Aoe more methodical gameplay? Or the same old?

[@diegost2112]

People care about pvp, they don't care about Arena. Future of wow pvp is on group pvp content like BGs/Blitz, arena just is not a fun game mode for most players.

[@TheBigG0613]

Just the fact that every new season you had to RECRAFT those damn embellished items and enchant them…..Unless you bought gold, there is no gold farm in WoW were the average person can make that kind of gold.

[@TheBigG0613]

@@benjaminhampson1670 playing maybe 2 hours a night. It’s not possible lol. Sophic devotion for your weapon was going for 25-30k. You’d have to log on everyday and just do world quests to barely be able to afford that. That being said now that cuts into and average persons play time. You just don’t want to admit it.

[@benjaminhampson1670]

@@TheBigG0613 that's true I forget not everyone has the time I do also iv never seen sophic devotion for more than 15k but i didn't play season one and I guess it depends in server

[@wooptidoo3525]

I wasn't a pvper but that's one of the main reasons I quit WoW when dragonflight began. Couldn't keep up with the prices of all the new fancy profession stuff. I wanted to log on and play (raid/m+), not tediously farm gold or level professions to spam chat for hours, so that I can afford consums etc. Discord boosting servers were great for quick cash, but after those closed, there ain't no way in the world I'm gonna spend my time tediously farming (or buying) the gold I need to play the game.

[@BattousaiHBr]

my man what are you talking about, you exchange your honor for pieces and then sell back for gold. makes more than enough gold to craft your stuff (which only needs to be basic quality) and repair your gear. this is the kind of take you'd hear from someone who played for a few hours and quit. for people saying sophic devotion is 25k+, i just checked and it's 1.5k. you can do 1 PvP WQ for 1k, which takes maybe 5 minutes including flying to the area. 25k was the price on expansion launch where very few people had the profession leveled high enough to even craft it and the mats were scarce so of course prices were inflated so that only the wealthy could buy them, this had nothing to do with pvp 25k is too expensive even for most PvE players, all you had to do was wait 3 weeks and prices dropped to 5k and less.

[@TheBigG0613]

@@BattousaiHBr my man I have more then a “few hours” lol. Might cost that much on your server pal…ever think of that? Want me to pay real money now to transfer ? Trying to play PvE as well, need more than the “minimal quality”. Who wants to spend their already minimal play time doing world quests pal

[@stepheniavarone9836]

Ven I understand what he is saying about uneven playing field for new players. How are you supposed to get fully geared when it takes knowing the game to win but you keep losing cause ur learning and also undergeared so it doesn’t help at all. I love wow and it’s a great game but it’s very hard.

[@andrewshandle]

All the gear is normalized in Blitz. You can walk in to a game in greens with the secondary stats of your choice and be just fine.

[@ght405]

i think one of the best changes retail could do is make the honor gear and conq gear having a minimal gap

[@vexxshades2004]

The whole you lose to someone with better gear so you stop playing thing is fried and asmongold made the exact opposite argument a few years ago when talking about scaling saying that gear imbalances motivate people to keep playing and get good gear so they can be the strong one.

[@christophernixon7926]

You can make pvp good but its too much hard for returningplayers i dont understand nothing

[@andyc8707]

No its not, you just have a knowledge gap you need to fill. Play the new classes, learn them, then you will return to your old rating. This game is about knowledge and knowledge is power.

[@Drualeaf]

With any player coming back to the game, it can be a little overwhelming. You just have to learn what’s new.

[@andyc8707]

@@Drualeaf I disagree 100% and I’ve had several seizures and an epilepsy diagnosis and barely remember a thing. The problem is a knowledge gap, the game has no changed.

[@Drualeaf]

@@andyc8707 sounds like you have a Disability. How is that the games fault?

[@Rizzerio1]

Yah bro, level every class to max and take the time to master each one like a chess grandmaster….and only then you can begin to actually play the game

[@WhatIfTheories]

The people who don't play Retail opinions are more valuable which is why Asmon is mostly stating facts. I don't play Retail and that's why we comment on it because we hope some day it gets fixed and becomes playable again. We all want a good game to play and it's not Retail and the next expansion fixes nothing with Retail, it's just more convluted mess ontop. So if we want to PvP it's just better to play another game or Classic. Retail just isn't going to attract players anymore especially for PvP. Time to do a hard reset and do WoW 2 which is the only way you fix Retail is by ending it.

[@kingofrohan888]

Asmon isn't going and playing any of those games those, he's disingenuous with his point, he's speaking for others when in reality he doesn't play WoW or WoW PVP because he's not that good, doesn't want to put the effort in to get good while being made fun of by his chat. He's pining for nostalgia and a sense of discovery that isn't in there that no game can fill

[@KingsAmbience]

I literally don’t know why we don’t bring back pvp templates, was the most balanced version of modern wow we’ve had. Let’s seperate the game modes again

[@beldaras6787]

A "why you should play wow and play wow pvp" video would be interesting to rebut Asmon. My friend has been trying to get me to look at the next xpack but im pretty out on blizzard atm. PVP was what got me into wow originally so maybe you can sway me and others like me.

[@christophernixon7926]

You play 24-7 ofc you like it the skill cap is to high i get so confused 100 buttons to press and shit

[@adamboeder6761]

Practice then? Think anyone was good when they first start anything? This is why you don't give participation medals to everyone.

[@MuDkipzCHancelLOr]

@adamboeder6761 Brain dead take. If you have friends, ask them to play with you. Every time they ask what to do to deal with an issue you respond with downloading a third party program. After 10 to 15 times of that being the response they will always lose interest. If you try to get them to play with you, you will quickly realize that you’re playing an alpha and not an actual video game. The argument that you need to have a 70 binds and 15 modifiers to stack in order to be different from another player is foolish on its own too. There has always been a group of players higher rated than others prior to all of this bloat. It’s a non argument.

[@poorpriest4549]

@@adamboeder6761 There is zero new players and you're basically hop into smurf/booster cloaka that nowadays called arena. And new players just don't want to deal with this shit, they can play dota, league, CS where they can play with people with the same skillcap, yeah, there are still boosters, but still, not that much.

[@nightknight7748]

And by practice he means get a weak aura pack to tell you everything. @@adamboeder6761

[@jonathanmicu]

@@poorpriest4549oh you will get smurfed on to possibly a larger degree in league my friend.

[@PiratDunkelbart]

I tried to get into PVP once during this addon, but it was a horrible experience. I crafted full PVP gear and went in this non rated arena thing (dunno the english term). Enemies were fully pvp equipped and had almost double my amount of hps. I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE BGs and dont want to play not even one. I quit after some losses. At one point you could convert PVE points into PVP points, so you could get gear, but thats also no option anymore. What Asmon said about not having equal opponents is absoluetly right. I dont want to grind 40 hours of BGs that makes me puke on the floor to get starting gear and I also cant get it with arena itself, because I cant queue and if I would I would get destroyed. Stopped btw since more than a year now, maybe Ill come back some weeks before the addon launches, but I doubt they will change the time you have to spend before being competitive.

[@spaceanimai5046]

Yeah or if you join a season late, lets say you install the game 2 months into the expansion, lobbies will generally be fully geared while you're in blues and a couple epics, MAYBE. Nobody will want to play with you, you might even get flamed. It has been this way since TBC pretty much, I think vanilla BGs were pretty lax in comparison. You can sneak by in 40 man bgs like AV, but anything 15 or lower you will get singled out as a weak link. If PvP is your main focus in the game, and you grind it out, its probably not bad, but as a new player or someone who just wants to try it out to see if its fun, you're just going to get smashed and its not going to reflect how fun it can be - and btw it can be extremely fun when you are on curve. It ends up being a complete waste of time and is just inaccessible. In contrast, a game like CS2 or Valorant you can just install and play. League is a bad example since that game suffers from some different problems that result in it also not being beginner friendly.

[@Halfhaphazard]

it doesnt take 40 hours to get full conquest.... just do the weekly quests & do the daily BGs/Epic BGs run. If you play SS/2s, you can farm conquest like crazy. & like friend said above, if you start at beginning of season, is 1000x more bearable, since everyone will be the same as you.

[@Alastor7783]

Warrior mains 10min into the video: "the fuck are these guys talking about? everything aoes, too much self-healing, Wat"

[@rumbleshakes]

...or everything cleaves, but doesn't hit anyone under a control effect that will break unless targeting a target with that control effect such as fear. And make that primary target deal much more damage than the cleaved targets. I'm returning for Solo Queue RBGs.

[@BeowulfGaming]

PvP is and will be dead as long as blizzard does not treat it as a separate game and gamemode. GW2 did it right FFXIV kind of did it right. You make flat stat templates for each class, everyone has same gear etc. You pick gems and talents etc but its easily balanced as a separate mode outside PvE. Conquest 5v5 mode, everyone has 10 abilities, 1 trinket, 1x CC, 1x self heal or defensive, thats it. Pure teamplay and balanced, e-sport ready

[@therockontheshelf]

Do think you misrepresented Asmon's point a bit about telling people to quit wow lol. You gave an example of telling someone already great and well invested into badminton to go play tennis instead, thats not what Asmon said. He said if he was giving advice to someone new that was thinking about into getting into wow pvp as their multiplayer game of choice to potentially spend years of their life on, that they would be far better served playing something else instead thats actually super popular, has a huge e sports scene and potential to earn a living streaming etc. Which is undeniably true. That doesnt however mean we shouldnt try to make WoW pvp as good as it can be for those that do enjoy it. The points about aoe and self heals are 100% true. Everything is just damage damage damage on all targets maybe funnelling a bit more into one at any given time than the others, and spamming micro CCs a lot of which are also aoe. Because everything is designed around mythic plus which needs that.

[@user-kf2kw2ct4d]

True

[@estebanm.6210]

"He said if he was giving advice to someone new that was thinking about into getting into wow pvp as their multiplayer game of choice to potentially spend years of their life on, that they would be far better served playing something else instead thats actually super popular, has a huge e sports scene and potential to earn a living streaming etc. Which is undeniably true." I'd agree if that someone was a guy who wanted to build a career of the game, but as Ven said, most people don't play games to make money. For example: in 2021 I had never played a MOBA but I asked a friend if I should try Dota 2 and he said yes, ofc he loves that game. So I did try it and that was INSANELY overwhelming BUT I found the game to be very fun, so I stuck to it and watch 100 KZbin videos to learn the basics, got stomped more times that I can count but eventually I learned and got into ranked. Now I have over 1500 hours in Dota 2, I don't play as often nowdays but I log in with my friends every now and then and have fun and it is the same with WoW, it was overwhelming at first but I loved the gameplay, the fantasy and the complexity so I had a lot of fun learning it. Also, there is no pvp game that gives the same feel as WoW PvP, it is very unique imo so the argument of "you should try this other game instead" does not always apply, I play a lot of pvp games for different reasons, I play OW, Dota 2, Smite and even Paladins, but my favorite pvp game its always been WoW and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[@andrewshandle]

But he was saying you don't make any money, so who are these mystery people Asmon is talking to who base their gaming decision on what game they can turn into a job. The problem Asmon is he's been streaming for so long he's forgotten what it's like to be a real person. A few weeks ago he complained that the Elden Ring DLC was too hard and it should be easier which is completely antithetical to the genre...it took his handlers convincing him to try another build and give it a shot again after everyone made fun of him. Ironically I think he makes a few good points in the video (although they are really just Xar's points he's agreeing with), so he's not clueless, he's just forgotten what it's like to just play games for fun

[@therockontheshelf]

@@andrewshandle Again thats misrepresenting what he said lol, he never said anything like "you should only play a game you can make money from" lol. Its just one of the factors involved. Its also pretty clear hes not talking about casual gamers (not that casual gamers would play something like WoW pvp anyway lol) Hes talking about recommending a competitive multiplayer game to someone thats gonna be their main game or one of them at least. And in that context you would recommend something that A) Is relatively easy to get into B)Is very popular, because people like it when the games they play are popular so theres lots of content, yt vids and streams and e sports etc and theres little risk that they might invest tons of time and effort just for the game to die and make that effort wasted. C) Yes potential to earn money streaming IS a big deal nowadays. Just think of all the fortnite streamer kids etc. Yes thats a small percentage of the players but if your somewhat serious about getting good at a game it is nice for that option to be there and fairly accessible.

[@andrewshandle]

​@@therockontheshelf It's exactly what he said, and he went on about it twice in his video. There's literally no mistaking it, Asmon doesn't need you interpreting and translating what he said for him to make it more palatable to the viewer. The biggest problem with Asmon is he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and will act accordingly and given he admits he hasn't played retail PvP in years he clearly doesn't have all the info. Let's start with the obvious, if asynchronous PvP will never work, how come it worked for a decade? How come PvP participation started dropping in WoD and Legion, the two expansions that worked so hard to make it synchronous? In MoP PvP was more popular than PvE, which is impossible under his hypothesis that he speaks like it's fact. Secondly, does he not know Blitz exists which is literally what he's asking for? The gear is completely normalized and any one can jump in with just greens and excel, but he doesn't even know it exists because he hasn't put any real thought into it, he's just reacting to a video and talking for views. That doesn't mean he didn't make some very valid points, but those points were just Xaryu's points that he agreed with. Xar has been incredibly critical of WoW PvP but he at least walks the walk and wouldn't make bold statements without real facts to back it up. You need to learn not to mistake Asmon's confidence in the way he speaks about a subject with actual knowledge.

[@Shockdoctor_OG]

People hate on pvp because it's skill ceiling and reaction time is much higher. Wow pvp is alot of fun once you take the time to hone your class, abilities, and teamwork. Most people want instant gratification and don't wanna work or practice for it.

[@joshuataylor3011]

Essentially meaning MMO design = constant progression / power creep PvP definition = ideally wanting to fight someone on equal terms to see who can outplay the other one. PvP always suffers when the game is tuned around PvE balance and who has the best items, and removes a lot of the essence of outplaying. A prime example of this is either when you decide to play arena or shuffle to gear and if you lose, a lot of the time its because you have no stats, or trying to heal a melee lobby in solo shuffle where it feels like an RNG AoE-fest until someone overlaps a CD and loses.

[@andreiunuchak6525]

Back in Cata and MoP I could play 100-200 matches per day despite the fact that I had less free time. Now I play only 1 BG per week because since WoD balance moved towards the AoE abilities and shitty class designes ruined all fun.

[@frskngd]

23k+ shuffles a day and still takes several minutes to queue only to get pushed down by the shitty mmr, yes pvp is failing.

[@dmsmikhail]

multi react videos are like round tables but only one person is allowed to speak at once. Venruki the wise, always the adult in the room.

[@dnwlkr935]

The MMO-RPG idea of the game is important so that the player can choose and put into practice the philosophy of the class, not just in some kind of animated wrapper, conditionally, but so that there is a real, real immersion in the features of the class. The struggle for the implementation of the class (spec) concept. PVP and World PVP allows you to achieve diversity for this idea. PVE scenarios greatly limit how a class can behave in combat, how it can be useful, what it can influence, and also in what relationship it stays with other philosophy classes. For example, Shadow Priest patronizes others as a class and supports allies in the dark forces, and also affects the enemy as an energy vampire and manipulator. Dark magic itself has its own unique properties. It affects covertly, insidiously, and causes indirect, long-term damage, debuffs. It's not possible to balance all this in PVE. Accordingly, he can find mutual understanding more-interaction with Affliction Warlock and Unholy DK. Another example. The fierce and assertive spirit of the Warrior battle, especially the Fury specialization. The philosophy of open and contact combat that does not allow avoidance. And the spiritual class is a shaman who patronizes Warriors, especially the Enh specialization, which should complement and improve the warrior's fighting style, his rage and physical attacks. You can describe the features of all other classes, for example, a cunning hunter who first sets the necessary conditions and then delivers a critical attack, except for the brutal BM. PVE scripts violate all these philosophies and modify classes so that they conform to the PVE-Role format and act approximately the same way. All mechanics and abilities that disrupt this PVE balance of actions are removed. And there is another vicious principle that the developers adhere to. This is Individual freedom and competition through personal performance with someone else. It also violates the philosophy of classes, which are prescribed certain strengths and weaknesses, someone has their own way of implementing in the world, someone is more technical, someone supports, someone is more aggressive, someone is like a paladin, protective, restraining, but not very agile and purposeful in attack. PVE scenarios, versatility, sameness and Individualism, passion for such competition are erroneous principles for building an MMO RPG, because of them class characteristics, the importance of choice and unique experience are blurred.

[@FinisterreTV]

asmon is saying a lot of stuff like "Why would you play if you're going to just get stomped" and "Its unbalanced so that isn't fun at all." but its fun to see yourself progress even if you suck at the game. its fun going from a guy who can barely get a win to a guy who can consistently get wins in crazy moments and in difficult games. it's like if someone walked into the gym first their first day and a person in there says "That 250 pound barbell over there? that's going to crush you, so why would you even try?" yeah it probably will but you have to build up to it. so that person keeps going for awhile and eventually if they try hard enough and consistently enough they can eventually lift that weight multiple times. its a similar mindset with wow pvp. also even if you're playing against someone on a class that completely counters yours, it's fun beating them on a worse spec because you had more game knowledge, experience, or you know a trick or a talent that can edge it in your favor that maybe the other player doesn't know or expect, or you have a good mindset and were calm in the key moments, maybe you got lucky for one, etc. and generally just try to get good at all the things that can make you good then it feels amazing to progress and start doing things you didn't expect yourself to be able to do when you were starting out. at the end of that learning curve once you're proficient enough to start winning a little and knowing why you won and start attempting things in games that help you win more, you start to have way more fun. just like with any sport or skill that you acquire. sucking sucks, but once you know what you're doing its fun and satisfying to play.

[@MrSherhi]

He explained why very clearly, most people don't want uneven play field. In games like LoL you can just hop in and have fun, even win sometimes after few hours. You are nowhere near that in retail WoW, at best you are learning how UI works, how to move your health bar from upper left corner and you are getting swarmed by useless quests in Valdrakken if you use 70 boost.

[@Shigazane]

6:11 He is talking about progression within PvP. You level from 1-70 in PvE, and have a sense of progression and power achievement. You dont really have that in modern WoW PvP. You are in an arena, with equally geared people with the only differentiating factor being player skill. If you add an actual progression system (talents or gear you can only get for x level) the system falls apart and becomes imbalanced. He means it's doomed to fail because anyone that goes into WoW PvP will not obtain a real sense of progression other than rating.

[@viberaider6852]

I feel the progression between a green weapon and the epic one, tier sets, enchants. It's not much but there is a small gear progression

[@szilardenyedi2855]

I think this time Asmon is right. It really reminds me when I tried to get into Pokemon PvP. The game was fun, I spent a lot of time farming the right Pokemons with right IV-s and skills, had some quite fun matches. Then I went on a tournament and got trashed by players who got better teams and like 10 years of experience. They told me that 'Hey, just keep going, eventually you'll be as good as us'. I realized that I require a PhD to play competitive Pokemon so I kept playing as the game was quite fun, but after getting absolutely trashed on my second tournament as well I quit. As an experienced WoW player you can say that it is not too bad or that this state is the best it has ever been - it does not change the fact that it is overwhelming for others and rather than investing 300 hours to be decent (not even that good, just decent) at a new game(mode) they just quit. Asmon is phrasing it very harshly and its exaggerated, but the essence of what he is trying to say is true.

[@wowitsnicify]

I used to do some much pvp but don't really these days. gave it a good crack season 2 but as a healer main solo was not fun

[@andrelacoste4974]

fcking thousands of hp, dozens of modifiers, bloated, too many buttons, melee auto attacks doing no damage, addons needed, everyclass has heals and gap closers back then you had to have bandages or potions the world was alive the game is just boring

[@andyc8707]

Buttons has nothing to do with it.

[@drinkcloudmilk]

man wtf, an mmo is just a collection of minigames in the first place. whether you pet battle, you ss, you 3's or 2's or bg's, mythic + , raids, RAIDS WITH DIFFERENT NUMBERS OF PLAYERS. You can balance it all separately if you want. What was the idea behind resilience? PVP MINIGAME SPECIFIC ADJUSTMENTS. The concept of uniquely balanced game modes is THERE. Their execution can be off in many different ways throughout the years, that's a criticism of Blizzards COMPETENCY in executing their perfectly rational and reasonable design ideas. playing an mmo is difficult when you don't have the developer focus on the minigames you like, but to just not expect them to do better with their niche communities is a cringe prescription to the issue.

[@seanncn]

My two sons did PvP and they got full PvP gear but when it came time to get rating in arenas they did not like it as they got into 1500 rating. They did say it was hard. My oldest said the training dummy should be better. For example an arena march against a cpu that yells when to stun, interrupt, line of site etc. they said they need more practice and want the same add-ons everyone else uses.

[@MadSaurax]

I find it incredible that I can leave for 4 years, return. And then be meet with an exact replay of the exact same problems, and talking points, the same copium and hopium like I never left. Wow PVP will never be fixed, and I felt like I've said this multiple times across the last 10 years Pro tip for myself: Move on.

[@mrbigwheel11]

Increasing self healing and defensives then removing healers would make pvp awesome. The que s would be so fast. Healing is for pve not pvp. Pvp is about the players skill and not someone getting babysat with a healer.

[@joshuaheke-davis3639]

So if I play a healer I now can’t PvP ?

[@BloodyElbow707]

i kind of agree with this, but they have needed to just seperate pve and pvp for like almost two decades at this point. Make it like the old arena tournament realms, and just make pvp only servers. then you can change classes and balance them on those servers. pve balances and changes have fucked the game for pvp, its why classes can never ever be balanced. its been the most obvious change thats needed to happen lol

[@Ilyafacepalm]

​@@BloodyElbow707but they do not care about pvp, why would they make a separate server and (even) treat some classes and abilities to balance all this towards pvp fights.

[@mrbigwheel11]

@@joshuaheke-davis3639 yes , your not pvping as a healer anyway. Healing is for pve. Unfortunately not enough people want to heal to justify screwing over 95% of the player base for healing in pvp.

[@mrbigwheel11]

Really they need to just remove healers from the game and have everyone use defensives and self heals. It seems like healers are either not doing anything or overworked. Also make it where anyone can tank in instanced content like just a tank buff for whoever wants it. This would make grouping so much easier, faster, and more fun.

[@Morbidt123]

The game used to be more about decision making and now it's so much more skewed towards quick reaction, it killed it for a lot of older players

[@viberaider6852]

It's still about decision making, it's just you get punished for acting like it's a turn based game 😅

[@crafguy]

Honestly wow is pretty old guy friendly compared to other pvp games, those games you can barely see people over 30 still playing competitively on top of the ladder.

[@viberaider6852]

@@crafguy right, just look at cdew!

[@Tenly_UK]

Asmongold told something shit

[@nikmo7360]

Im 41, it has GCDs so the pacing is quite good but not so stupidly slow or ultra fast. Its honestly in the perfect spot to me.

[@roflstomplolmao]

There’s a kernel of truth on both sides, on one hand the people saying “you shouldn’t wow PvP, no one cares about you, what are you doing” is just nonsense. You shouldn’t be an asshole and dictate what’s acceptable or not to people who enjoy it. L take. However on the other hand, the barrier for entry into wow PvP is extremely high. I stopped playing in legion and watched a few PvP streams the other day…I’ve got to say it was incredibly difficult to understand all the new things that have been added. Just a feelsbadman, wow PvP is SO fun when you have reached a certain threshold of competence, but that tough journey is a stretch for the vast majority of people ☹️

[@robdabanks]

I'm at an all time low motivation for WoW right now. Happened midway through Dragonflight. For the amount of money that Blizzards draws in, PVP has been neglected for too long and I'm tired of having to repeatedly do the cycle. "New season, grind gear for a random alt, forced to queue for Wintergrasp (rather than being able to block it) and once geared, join arena and face nothing but the meta." The random rated battleground is an ideal change, but it's just difficult to stay motivated when you're clearly aware they're not interested in making content for you and you're constantly falling prey to whatever changes they do for M+ Zoomies crowd. I can usually be balanced out by an interest in the story too, but War Within just looks like it's going to be a dud unless you're a Metzen fanatic. Like, zero interest in that. Zero interest in a new dwarf reskin, zero interest in a potential new fluffy night elf skin. There's some obvious ways to make PVP way more engaging but they don't care enough to invest in it or they're aware they've lost their chance to put some real effort in. 1 new battleground ain't gonna cut it.

[@TheFishhat]

Watching a popular streamer tell you to go play League, then reading all these comments saying "its too hard", "PvP has been dead for ages"..etc is so depressing. Fuck man, I like Badminton...my bad for trying to play it I guess?

[@Drualeaf]

I just wish blizzard would put some resources into PVP. Give us PvPers some love already! 😭

[@user-kf2kw2ct4d]

Kinda funny that the league of legend video you show us was 10 times simpler than any wow retail pvp tournament xd

[@Yams42279]

lol yeah that was a wild example if u pick any single character in that highlight and watch them its pretty simple to see what they are doing

[@igorhanzek4987]

As someone who reached 2k rating in original WotLK and got back into retail PvP I was so overwhelmed after 2 years of tryharding my ass off. Endless ques for team mates which leave after 2 games or playing with warriors who are literally not pressing "charge" and walk into enemies instead. Endless shuffle ques with 2 hour or so available per day for this game is not enough to do anything. It is not fun learning experience and it is not fun playing experience, and not to mention toxicity. Got back to PvE and reached 3,3k there in "no time", met friends and actually had fun. I do miss WoW PvP, and i love PvP more than PvE but as long as game is it this state its just not TIME WORTHY. As much as I dislike Asmongold i agree with 90% of things he said there. Game is too complicated and too hard to understand. And someone who consider my self game veteran with 16 years experience (with few break years). I can imagine what it would be like for some brand new player to learn PvP.

[@MI-wf1lw]

WoW pvp is still best game for me and I like retail more than classic. I have fun and thats all I want from WoW or any game in general.