Thorin's Thoughts - TSM at Worlds (LoL)

[@msft777jf]

Time stamps: 1:55 Hauntzer performance 7:40 Hauntzer tank-style 9:39 Svenskeren 11:41 Passive TSM junglers 12:49 Bjergsen 15:32 Doublelift & Biofrost 21:30 TSM pick/ban at Worlds 24:30 Group results & why

[@Imkohlton]

The title is TSM at worlds LOL. Beautiful.

[@jamesw7098]

I think Bjergsen finally got exposed this tournament. It seemed in the past that he was off limits in terms of criticism, but I always thought he deserved so much blame for failing in international events. I don't think he's capable of carrying a team in high level international events, and he's out of excuses now.

[@jamesw7098]

Lil Bobby you're absolutely right. Based on the evidence it is a fact.

[@fishersofmen4727]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the players and everything to do with the hell match up Parth was putting doublelift in vs Cait-Janna. SKT wanted to run the same late game Twitch comp and banned the Cait out vs EDG. TSM should have done the same! It blows my mind they didn't... IF you really wanna talk about facts! Look at the Sneaky interview after playing Cait.

[@supernieva2419]

The problem is why not just pick janna over lulu they always prioritize lulu over janna. Team We pick caitlyn the first time vs tsm second week so they dont have any data on it.

[@alexlu4361]

Bjergsen is no faker but I find it hard to blame him for TSM's consistent failings as an organization. Bjergsen as a player had always been inclined to push his lead and challenge his mechanics but lately all he does is play for a CS lead in his lane and attempt to solo push the first tower which in itself might not be so bad if his entire team didn't play the same way. Every single game lately is play for CS, play safe, half assed vision based jungling, get ganked. Over and over and over. The reality is there is a serious problem with the way TSM approaches the way they play the game as a whole, and given that they've repeatedly had these issues year after year with players that have had more impactful play styles in the past - it begs the question whether the players individual skills have been actually been whats offsetting bad coaching throughout the years. It's 3 worlds now where the team goes into the second week of group stage having made literally 0 adjustments and refused to get creative with the early game planning. They draft predictably and do nothing assertive to actually unlock the talent of their lanes. In that scenario it's nearly impossible to actually look impressive and in that case, not being Faker isn't really that much of an indictment.

[@darren871]

He did fairly well in all champs not named Ryze. That champ was AIDS to literally every single team that picked him. I blame the coach.

[@prawtism]

Missed the chance for a "TSM at Worlds (LuL)" title

[@pelataan69]

yea

[@johnj3027]

nah. (LoL) is the perfect pun

[@Mahongler]

Which was 100% not the point here

[@xd-ko9oo]

copy paste you fucker

[@prawtism]

xd I posted first, nice random accusation :D

[@CrudeHD]

Thorin is such a fucking champ.. again and again. i've followed and been a fan of TSM since 2012, through ups and downs, through thick and fucking thin. And Thorin is completely fucking right and here is why: Thorin has built a persona where he can be audacious, ridiculous, saucy as fuck and troll kids on twitter all fucking DAY. Largely his following is based on him calling people out for being complete and utter idiots. Now in addition to this, his following might be coming for the sauce and salt, but stay for the insight and knowledge he'll bring to an argument. the classic "TSM fanboys", as he calls them consistently, have this up-in-the-air close to godly regard for an org. its not fucking grounded, and is why thorin harp on them repeatedly. The reality of the situation is that Thorin has good insight into LoL as he's covered it for years previously, and when he feels he doesn't have the credibility on a subject by himself, he brings in experts or people who have a greater understanding in some shape or form - this be either from being a player/owner/other, whom can bring insight on the topic at hand. I have very high regard for Thorins way of handling content, and will continue to have exactly that. He's looking at this empirically, and still gets to fuck with people on the daily, and deliver quality content. To some, he might seem a hypocrite with how he "bashes" and shits on tsm, amongst other names in the esports eco-system, and then come to defend them every now and then - or at the very least open up for a discussion as to what can be improved. To me though, it just proves that he doesn't seem to hold a bias, or at the very least tries not to. TL;DR - dude is smart, and seems to hold professional integrity when it comes to content. i respect this very much.

[@seanjordan5612]

crudechad fuck u n thorin

[@xxdxpure]

C9 got out of groups :thinking:

[@prashantgrg]

Thanks Thorin, as a true/dedicated TSM fan.. i usually dislike what you tweet about the team and etc but I appreciate videos like these. That's why I follow you even though other TSM fan's say we should just ignore you. I also like that you fanboy Astralis

[@Dyelon210]

Prashant Gurung A reasonable comment from a TSM fan??? Be careful, we need to capture it, study it, and hopefully find some way to replicate it in others. I'm kidding, but appreciate you not just flaming and actually being rational and cool. Good guy.

[@johnj3027]

DO YOU MEAN *THEY'RE* / *THEY* *ARE* ????

[@prashantgrg]

*THERE* , ~

[@johnj3027]

ah, you didn't have a comma. was confusing.

[@Fluskar]

ASTRALIS FANBOY DANISH FUCKBOI THORIN

[@BrendanGeormer]

>sees title >rubs hands together with an evil grin

[@dcrews100]

Regi for the love of god, listen to this guy. Please

[@Guilhermim123]

TSM at Worlds (LUL)*. I fixed for you Thorin

[@pittaaaabread]

EU as a region LUL 6 viewers per a match LUL

[@rixz1488]

Who cares ? Skill is what matters.

[@prashantgrg]

come again when EU beats NA in a bo_ series :)

[@MrJeo29]

robizzlor seems reasonable lol

[@dislexyc]

I fixed it for you, Thorin. Fixed that for you.

[@chmtv458]

IM SO READY FOR THIS

[@MusicJunkie37]

AtuxoiTV REGGIE

[@nypad5]

my body is ready

[@nikitamarynich1794]

Watching this in 2020 is so satisfying, knowing what happened after

[@samzaiko2851]

2023 is even better

[@Roseboy22]

Personally as a big tsm fan I thought this was a really good video. You stated what needs to be said about this team and pointed out the flaws. It would be stupid to think that TSM as a team right now will be able to achieve international success after 2 years of failure to perform. I Still love the players and organization but pointing out flaws and calling for either subs or replacing players in general is the only way to fix this problem. Good video!

[@francislau1702]

NA got out of groups though?

[@PixelatedEpiphany]

I've been getting shit on all over reddit/youtube for making the exact same statements about Bjerg for awhile now. Actually for the last few seasons. I say that to obviously say that I agree %100 with your opinions in this video.

[@PixelatedEpiphany]

Javii I I agree with what you're saying but it's been my opinion that bjerg has not made plays, pushed his cs lead, roamed, gotten solo kills, or carried in a very long time. Not since gragas mid was meta. The issue with all this is he has the potential to be one of the best players to have ever played league but he just doesn't seem to take the next step. He always seems to shy away from it or back off when things are not going well.

[@FearOfTheFlesh]

I mean you would have to link your statements and show that people were giving you shit for it. In my experience even on Reddit it matters a lot how you say and articulate something not just what you say. E.g. saying Bjergsen is a choker with no skill or talent, is over-rated and NA only thinks he's good because they are delusional morons will not get you a positive response relative to for instance providing Bjergsen international stats and explaining why even though domestically he does well his lack of international performance consistently particularly his more farm-intense style relative to domestically again backed with maybe cs stats would be far better received.

[@saintsataniko2116]

I was taking shit looooooong before you, my friend. I've been saying he's the most overrated and selfish Mid in the world for his entire career. I recognized that because as a C9 fan I was spoiled by HAI's completely unselfish play, constantly giving up farm to snowball his top or bot lanes. The irony is that this season was one where I think Bjergsen (while still crazily overrated) was playing his least selfish and I finally felt some sympathy for his plight internationally. I always loved what TSM did at Rift Rivals, shitting all over Europe. Unfortunately at Worlds Bjergsen just chokes...back to selfishly farming lane, not roaming, not making plays, not playing anything but his comfort pick Syndra. I think the question of whether Jensen has surpassed Bjergsen was definitely answered. One has real impact...the other just coasts on his overblown reputation and caster hype.

[@Clutch1738]

That must be why Jensen shits on Bjerg in every finals lul

[@NanoLT]

He needs to move back to EU

[@nilsditting5887]

Really like hearing you talking about lol topics and interesting thoughts on them while playing myself. Keep it up and sorry for any mistakes

[@Craig_B]

Shouldn't have put the brackets in the title, would have still been accurate rofl

[@jjicebit]

Thoorins thoughts were 100% correct with TSM problem...what I wouldnt give for TSM lira and a new coach

[@CmereHabibti]

Someone send this video to ALL the TSM members and that includes the coaches, staff and everyone involved. They need to learn some of this quality info. I've always thought Thoorin was a TSM hater judging from what fookin reddit says but clearly what ever he said in this video is more than if not all true. Someone bless this son of a gun and give him a medal.

[@fromcesarwithlove]

Ah what a great video, I miss story times with Thorin I need to watch more league related videos from him!

[@nhuxtable4019]

A very well reasoned, thought out analysis. May you have peace, prosperity, and sick scrilla

[@prashantgrg]

ITS TIME TO BRING BACK THE GENERAL *TheOddOne*

[@spring1242]

Hes listed as a sub now lol

[@RahulDMello96]

As a TSM fan, this video was very comforting for some reason! I really hope they fix their problems. Thank you thooorin for the awesome content!

[@The_MKUltra]

Quality and honest analysis from Thoorin even when a roast video would have been easier to make. Much respect from a very upset and long time TSM fan.

[@crono2511]

The feeling when someone FINALLY points out all the issues of TSM, thank you Thorin! PS: Think about beeing a Coach for TSM :^)

[@UNKNWN96]

LS said that Hauntzer actually played terribly from a macro perspective and his pathing lead to his team being out of position/caught out but he got praise because of the sick highlight plays he made. I can't really comment on the statement since I don't really know what i'm talking about lol but I can say that you gained a new sub from you quality content. This is the first vid I've seen by you and I already know that i'm gonna enjoy your channel.

[@OSTReturn]

Was waiting for this video I was so sure that you would talk about them lmao

[@KazaHighlights]

Not sure if it was yourself or someone else but in the past you had time stamps to specific parts or topics of your videos. Personally I always used those and went looking for them again here. Was disappointed when I couldn't find them.

[@imeeky_4635]

This is probably the best vid u can watch about the reality of TSM

[@leozebiLeonArmy]

dude im new here.. but you are so fucking good.. your vocabulary is easy to understand everything you say have a point and you argue it really well.. im just speechless.. one sub for you my friend.. even though you dont really need me xD

[@pokiblue5870]

hi leo zebi ! i was speechless to ur comment lol... its exactly what i had in my head xd

[@CHEXi_]

I've seen that outro so many times now and I still listen to the whole thing every time.

[@anafeliz7245]

i'm a TSM fan and I'm not even salty XD TSM needs change since s4

[@leong6490]

carlos yoel but they got many changes since s4?

[@anafeliz7245]

they have but i meant in infrastructure :)

[@JuzuNuzuz]

Legit first time listening to the man I always just knew as a meme. Not the last though. Smart, funny, respectful, easy to follow.

[@ThePhress]

I was waiting for this since yesterday lmao, this gonna be good

[@codygreenly6541]

please stay in LoL your content seems like you belong in the LoL

[@Tipzyyy]

His quake videos are better

[@lnt3ch]

This is the Thorin content I'm here for. Bash TSM all day everyday, but give me something analytical at least.

[@semajin]

Spot on analysis of the problems in TSM, Thorin. I will add this, though: Sven may have been a dominant jungler in EU during a certain Meta, but this past year he consistently overreached for invades (basically trying to play the opposing jungler instead of playing to get his lanes ahead) and was punished when he didn't get his comfort Lee Sin. Bjerg certainly played incredibly passively and hung his lanes out to dry as well, and the whole team was disjointed when it came to when to pull the trigger.

[@Daemazo]

TSM fan here: Thank you Thooorin, very well said. Here, have a thumbs up and a sub

[@ShikariLoL]

For some who claims to be a laymen on the game you gave better analysis than 99% of other pundits. Quality video.

[@kristijan5580]

Love the point he made about Svenskeren's role in TSM. He is absofuckingloutely being ignored as an individual and his personal capacity and strenghts as a player. Having the crucial lanes under pressure and not performing well in lane even in favorable match ups (speaking of bot lane and mid) at the current meta is rly destructive when your jungling playstyle is proactive. To sum things up, the current meta is nearly 90% of the time having a hard cc jungler who can provide cc in teamfights for the team, junglers that are not that difficult to play well on a mechanical level. Having a proactive jungler who wants to make difference on the map and look for early invades and outplays as Svenskeren requires pressuring lanes and space for snowball. TSM were unable to allow any of that and he was forced to play from a reactive position most of the games. He doesnt deserve most of the blame and he was not as invisible as he looked.

[@lennartmakkink7427]

Real fair video. Props. Also this outro is hilarious.

[@phillipklassen5797]

Thanks for opening my eyes to the Sven issue. I was shitting on him, but now I understand whats going on. You are a beast!

[@xXJustLive4MusicXx]

do you think TSM Svenskeren is suffering from a similar situation to what SKT Peanut is, in this current meta?

[@tobygreppellini5960]

who are peanut and svenskeren i thought skt and tsm only bought 4 players?

[@benbarth8613]

Agree completely with Hauntzer, but do you think that possibly TSM does a split jungle sorta like C9's top lane with a tank player (cough cough reignover) and then when the meta shifts or the team calls for it, sven comes in on lee and fucks shit up?

[@LeoTsukiyo]

Not that I'm a popular analyst or such but when I initially spotted people dubbing Group D the group of life, I was skeptical specifically because Misfits seemed poised to contest TSM, here's why. We know MSFs had a rather weak summer split, kicking it up when it came to play-offs defeating UOL (Admittedly with their own issues stemming from mid lane) 3-0, then FNC (who had a stellar regular split) 3-1. As the regular split continued, we saw Maxlore develop more synergy while increasingly being supportive of his solo laners, applying vision to back them up. HansSama & Ignar were always quite touted as players with mechanical skill and excellent game knowledge, being rookies, they had yet to *establish* themselves internationally HOWEVER they did remain very consistent throughout the split for MSF and integral in their victories. POE has historically performed against Bjerg specifically and against TSM has done well generally. Outside of history, POE also displayed his capacity to control his lane, roam with Maxlore, and utilize his lead to really choke the enemy mid laner frequently (admittedly not roaming as much as he could have to extend his lead to his team). Lastly, Alphari was already regarded as a strong mechanical player garnering the praise of the EU LCS casters upon MSFs promotion out of Challenger Series, but during the bootcamp he was the first western player to achieve KR Challenger. Why mention all these factors? Well when we synthesize them we understand Maxlore facilitates his allies, who each are mechanically gifted and have over 1 years experience playing together (with the only exception being maxlore). Coaching staff has a tendency to adapt to changes in patches since EU LCS Summer Finals 2017, and also have the versatility to select player specials if circumstances align (HansSama Draven, POE Orianna although admittedly meta). When we inspect the skill ceiling each player has we can notice it extend fairly high specifically in the rookies (Alphari, HansSama, Ignar) and when your role that influences the map the most (Jungler) has a mentality of team first it allows MSFs to enable their talent giving them conditions to thrive and take over. Now in hindsight we understand their team is not so crisp in execution especially compared to their remaining opponents (teams like SKT, LZ, RNG, etc), but walking into worlds we also knew TSM had glaring weaknesses as evidenced by the NA LCS Summer Finals 2017 (since despite winning 3-1 vs IMT, they did not do so in a clean fashion, they struggled in a few of those games). I think MSFs performance is a little surprising, but it was also pretty clear to know their ceiling was quite high and if they were to emerge from bootcamp with any improvements at all that they would do reasonably well. Of course this could just be me reading similar information differently from the pack, but I have videos on my channel that raise these very same points before groups even began *just* so we know this isn't revisionist opinion.

[@Bscybfan1996]

Never clicked on a video that fast. This is gonna be spicy

[@BManDaGamer]

Could you do a video on rush? Just the thought of a possibility to have impact, rush, and Jensen all on the same team (if the rules didn’t screw that up). Just your thoughts on him though would be awesome!

[@Muurat06]

Every year NA hype TSM and every year they choke but they still dont learn to next year. The NA casters are to blame aswell, i get that they are biased towards NA the same way some of the EU casters are towards EU but they actually start to belive in their own bs.

[@venchenzo4493]

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the scrims. They are probably doing well in scrims with no pressure but choking on stage, quite common actually.

[@mathewmallie4580]

Don't blame the casters. They can only judge a team by there current form. They like to hype they're region just like everyone else. But when they're asked a serious question or give they're personal analysis it's rarely an unrealistic statement. Like thorin said on paper tsm should have got out of this group easy. The problem is tsm never play like they do in NA, and that's not on the casters.

[@abluequaker5486]

This is a very good breakdown of what I've been thinking. I feel like worst-case scenario they should have just just tried to put Hauntzer on Gnar, Bjerg on Syndra, DLift on Trist, Sven on a Carry Jungler. At least then they're on comfort picks and they could have done more than just watch themselves slowly lose.

[@James_Cy]

Very insightful points to Thorin's theory. I'd like to see how Sven would do on CLG or IMT. He is a good jungler and does get shit on too much

[@You1337Noob]

The Bjergsen section had me crying with joy! Neither Bjergsen nor TSM have ever done jack shit internationally, yet "TSM is the best team in NA and Bjergsen is the best western player" and Jatt and those clowns ranked him as a top 10 player in the world. Most overrated league of legends player in history.

[@user-ue5kt1tj7i]

Can we get some gameplay while you talk

[@flipsiderraj4606]

Just think about how good was sven playing in NA playoffs at 2016 spring split at carry junglers and then whole summer split, and then internationaly performed at lee sin for example, and whats goin on now

[@XindeGaming]

Surprised you didn't put this out hours after the Group D result.

[@wilsonchen1000]

There are a lot of people who are saying Thorin is bashing TSM but honestly this video isn't even a bash on them. This is just a video analyzing what the team did wrong and the miss utilization of some players/staff.

[@kevinmoy3752]

Don't often agree with everything you say in your videos, but i think this one is spot on. I think Hauntzer was the strongest top laner in the group Sven is being misused. I think they stretch him too thin across the map, which means hes always stepping on wards, and can never surprise the opponent. Bjergsen didn't make any of the roaming plays that gave people hope in 2016. Doublelift just made so many plays that made you scratch your head. Had great moments, and had some really terrible moments. I also don't know how to rate supports who play lulu or karma. Bio had some great rakan moments. Pick/ban were so predictable from TSM, which is what they said they were trying to avoid all season. Completely agree with the team having no shot calling. They made zero effort to make plays in the laning phase. I don't think they need a new roster. I believe if they could find a coach like kkOma, they could easily be world contenders. Or even a coach like reapered.

[@Roffet]

The (LOL) refers to both the game the video is about, and the general reaction to TSM

[@sploosh578]

Wow, Thorin made some really good points. I do think TSM needs a roster change. This lineup just isn't working well internationally. I think jungle would be a good candidate to swap out (not hating on Sven, just think it's the most logical position to swap). What about Reignover? The guy can play aggressive if he needs to and is also a tactical mastermind.

[@sparkyholman225]

Squirrelly Joe it would still be the same situation. When someone plays aggressive in the jungle, they need their Laners to actually help by applying pressure on their lanes or to follow

[@ihsankamil6279]

Squirrelly Joe they just need a better coach who can really maximise the potential of the players. Especially sven and Haunterz

[@EvelynDayless]

TSM's answer to their problems at worlds this year was to just not go to worlds. Pretty clever really.

[@lightningt12312]

Totally agree on the Sven analysis.

[@memcan3774]

I can listen to this guy all day

[@Mrsupermuuh]

Your point on Sven is entirely correct. Look at how he performed at Worlds last year on champions such as Lee Sin or Elise. It was a different player entirely..

[@Arizzo97]

Maybe someone can clarify this. You say that Sven isn't getting to play his strength which is active counter jungling and aggression so to replace that you get a jungle that's aggressive? Are you saying that Parth and Sven were the problems or that TSM needs a fresh face in the jungle

[@junniper3]

Thorin, I really like your take on this and agree with you almost 100%! Let's face it, the ban/picks were just outrageously horrible. I cannot believe they let Jaana thru several times and didn't pick it up themselves when they had a chance. Like you said, either the coach (Parth in this case) or the players really screwed up. If it was Parth and he's always talked about respecting other players, he did not heed his own words. Hauntzer - I personally don't like his on Renekton, though I can understand. His last pick of Jayce was incredibly dumb though. I have no idea why they even thought about that. Svenskeren - He played very scared and confused. That could of been direction from Bjerg or who knows what. I really hated the fact that he was hardly helping top lane. That purely is unlike him. I've stood up for this guy because I know he's a very good player, but man this had me very disappointed. That being said, WHY THE F*CK was he getting Sejuani??? Sven is a speed aggressive jungler for christ sakes! Many times he could of gotten Jarvan and not once did he take Nidalee. Yes Nidalee is still relavant! Not even trying Nocturne, Kha'zix or Rek'sai was a complete waste of his talents. He's never shown to be good on Sej... this was a horrible read. Bjergsen - Few things. He, like Sven, played a bit scared. Like people have been saying, he played to not lose instead of playing aggressive. I think the one thing that really had me puzzled, mad and just overall rolling my eyes was the blind Syndra pick. Yes that is one of his signature champions, but blinding it, especially when LeBlanc and Corki were available to counter!? What the living sh!t was that all about!? Doublelift - DL is not the same player he was a year ago. Perhaps that time off really screwed him up. It has happened to many players before who tried to come back. But if you wanna talk about the not using flash's, then go ahead since ya that was a big f'up. My biggest problem his picking Kog'Maw. I mean seriously... Kog'Maw might have good late game, but has NO ESCAPE and very low mobility compared to some of the other champs he could of easily gotten. Something that really pissed me off against that last match is several times he died on Kog, he did not run into the enemy with Icathian Surprise. Who the hell does not do that? Anyways, DL is best on mobile champions and Kog'Maw is not that at all. Biofrost - So... Exactly why did Biofrost pick Nami? Why did he never pick Taric (yes he's played him before)? These are the questions we have to ask. Nami was a pathetic pick in the G3 match vs Misfits. Easily could of gotten Taric with the invuln against the 3 tanks they had. Instead got a Nami who's sole goal was to..buff...the.. immobile Kog'maw...? wha?? I feel Bio didn't make any aggressive moves like he did in spring split being the instigator, nor even in summer split and instead was just being forces to being on a tight leash specifically for Doublelift. Poor puppy... So in short, do they need to let Sven go? My opinion at first was yes and get someone like Reignover since he does tanks better. But really all they need to do it let his play more aggressive champions instead of tanks. Let the tanks be Top and Support. Should they get rid of Parth as a coach? This seem more realistic as he's been more passive lately. Other than that, I don't know. Truly another wake-up call for Andy to try and fix this team. Personally I wish he'd do the coaching and let others run the business, even though I know most would highly disagree with me. I mean he already coaches them after the game anyways.

[@pluto7278]

As a TSM theres no denying the team fcked up in multiple ways and iagree with most of what you say. I just hope the team can get their shit together

[@humanoideric]

Can you do a video on the 4 quartfinals matches? somehow guest star monte :'(

[@amharris]

Prediction video for the knockout phase match-ups?

[@chancho1010]

Your point at 24:00 was so valid. I was gonna be so sad if we didn't just see 1 game where Bjerg gets an assasin and Sven gets a carry jungler and they just duo mess stuff up. At least try it and maybe get some target bans out of it for the next game so you can fall back on some different champs. As soon as we started seeing Gnar bans every game they should've tried a new team comp to attempt to shake up the enemy team's perception of their draft. Seeing all the Ryze and Corki was just a shame.

[@SkyOfCrimsom]

Your statements on DLift makes me think of Sneaky, because that's how he plays. He shows it too considering he is almost always top 10 in NA.

[@saintsataniko2116]

Okay, so good perspective on Hauntzer, who did play great with almost ZERO help. Although to act as if he has always been terrible internationally prior is pretty ludicrous given that you literally have 2 examples. His very first Worlds ever, and one MSI. Also its worth noting that even his failed Jayce game showed how good he was, because on multiple occasions he made amazing dodges and perfectly-timed (NA) flashes to escape the endless ganks on him in lane. Meanwhile NO help from his own Jungler. However, when you get to Shitskeren. How about fuck YOUR own narrative that he WAS a "beast Jungler" in EU. A) So fucking what. How does that deny his multitude of awful performances on TSM? B) Despite your intense EU bias, even you had to recognize NA Junglers shitting all over EU at Rift RIvals. Hell, even Shitskeren shat all over other EU Junglers there. So maybe Jungle is a pretty shitty role in EU (a region that after all thinks Jankos is a god...LOL). The truth is Sven is a Lee Sin one-trick and created most of his "amazing" Jungle pressure in EU by playing Lee. He happens to stink on everything else, repeatedly feeds and makes the most boneheaded decisions imaginable. He can't even tank on relatively braindead meta Junglers like Sejuani and Gragas. He was a glaring liability coming into Worlds and that didnt change one iota.

[@bladesword9801]

I think TSM had 2 glaring flaws as a team. 1) Draft. The Twitch pick, the kogma when Tristana (by far Doublelifts best champ) was still up, the Jayce pick, the constant use of Ryze. 2) Not playing around bot. Almost every game in worlds has ended up with a team diving bot lane. Whoever gets the 4 man bot first normally wins the bot lane, and since its a ADC meta, wins the game. Svenskaren and Bjerg never did answer that play. It would lead to DL and Bio being left out to dry. These 2 problems combined to make most of their losses.

[@BreakzTheGod]

Here come the salty TSM fans

[@NikolasThane]

Yeah TSM fan but not salty, Thoorin is right on point with this as he is mostly :)

[@DaichiNoKamii]

Not salty. Just disappointed.. I completely agree with everything Thoorin said here.

[@kastrogoose4592]

nothing to be salty about. should watch the video before commenting.

[@WorldWarZ2]

I have no salt! He was actually pretty fair, and said things that needed to be said! I agree 100% with everything he said!

[@DoNotSnooze]

I had high hopes for tsm and i shit talked EU after rift, but i'll be the first to admit that misfits convincingly dumpstered them. what an awful showing

[@javierev4994]

"They could've reached top 4 without too much changing". Man, I promised I wouldn't cry

[@DarkCavaliero]

Your point about DL trying to copy Uzi and Fprgiven's style is just so true. I always thought he did that, but thought I might have been just a hater.

[@seanjordan5612]

this is actually GOLD.... i hated u as a tsm fan bc u troll the fans but this is spot on.....

[@Nr4747]

Bjergesen actually has to take *major* blame for TSM's terrible performance at Worlds (less than Svenskeren, obviously, but about as much as Doublelift). Bjergsen didn't roam *at all* in most games, and when he followed up on an opponent's roam, he was always incredibly late to the party (just look at TMS's loss to Flash Wolves and the tiebreaker game for example). Most of the time, Bjergsen just stayed passively in mid lane and farmed while his opposite number roamed and got their lanes ahead or invaded the jungle. It really feels to me as if Bjergsen gets scared and plays not to lose (as you said) as soon as he is facing tougher competition. He seems completely unwilling to go for the risky "hero play" that might bring his team back from defeat or even win them the game - just because he might look bad if the play goes wrong. The thing is: If you're not only the star player of your team, but considered one of the major stars of the whole tournament, you *have* to be ready and willing to go for those risky plays sometimes, for those tough, contested shots that might send your team into overtime (to bring up a basketball analogy). Bjergsen never does this, other great Western midlanders in LoL (Alex Ich, Xpeke, Froggen, Febiven, Perkz) never shy away from that !

[@D2ezbmu]

Top laners need to play like men, I love it. You're spot on with everything. Great vid

[@iiKurrupteD]

My god...this is the truth. I hope someone in the TSM org watches this. My lord the insight is spot on. I expected TSM to go 4-2, I expected a loss to WE and either lose both to WE or drop a a game to FW. Hauntzer was the only player who played up to my expectations. Bjerg and DL, no idea wtf happened there. Bio I thought he should have played more Rakkan when it was available. I wanted Bjerg to play Taliyah more because he plays so well on her. I thought Sven was gonna play a game on Nidalee and more J4. The drafts were atrocious. They definitely played scared Week 2, like they knew the pressure on them to get out of groups and they played scared not to disappoint

[@TRClouds]

Thorin, who do you think is the best top laner, or best top laners, in the world?

[@billywingrove27]

You know as a TSM fan, i have already made my peace that they will never get out of groups.

[@starbuzz766]

NA choking like Lana Rhodes LUL

[@johnkiin219]

Its not choking buddy, you can't choke for 5 years.

[@fuckingautistic5320]

FUCKING KEK

[@juandelacruz-fq3yp]

They be more like choking on a gloryhole.

[@McDragoneer]

my snacks are ready, lets go thorin!

[@ihsankamil6279]

Massive praise for Haunterz here and completely agree

[@RensReckluse]

i think bjergsen said dont play to lose, in the voice chat.. so i think that is his comfort playstyle

[@TeamGL]

Pretty good analysis of tsm. Mostly agree with all ur points. Hope tsm takes sum of ur suggestions into consideration

[@dagabeinator]

I saw. I smiled. I liked. I watched.

[@JMosegaard]

What was that noise at 11:20? Ziggs ult?

[@Swift-Justice]

Enjoyed the perspective. As a TSM (mostly DL) fan, sorry for the children.

[@Dangeled]

Thorin Secretly Giving thumbs up to Jensen! lol

[@CrazePS]

What you said about Doublelift trying to make a hero play at around the 19th minute of this video is completely contradictory to what you said makes him a an amazing ad carry a couple years ago on your rating doublelift video. You said that's what you liked about Doublelift, is that he's never scared to make a play or give up and just slowly die (unlike rekkles), you said he will either make a play and win you the game when he's behind or die and lose the game trying to carry, I don't really understand now.

[@wakehotchkiss8402]

Two thoughts 1) While nearly every team in NA should jump at the opportunity to sign Doublelift I think for Cloud 9 it would not be worthwhile since while at an individual level Sneaky might be a liesser player it's unlikely that Double would ever gel properly in that setup, leading to the team having a higher hypothetical ceiling, but never being able to reach it. 2) I think TSM should look to rebuild around their solo laners and find opportunities for the rest elsewhere. Perhaps see if TSM is the org to finally tame Dardoch and then import a complete bot lane, especially since TSM is unique in having the only ELITE (by NA standards) top middle combination that isn't using an import slot.

[@Volksbubs]

Good video, I enjoyed it! very fair criticism I honestly do not know why you get so much hate from TSM fans (TSM fan here)

[@anubis12321]

TSM has 3 international chokers, sven, bjerg, and doublelift. It's not a matter of "the international competition skill level is higher," either. These three players grossly underperform on the world stage when compared to themselves during the regular season. There's multiple years of video proof for this too.

[@natej8130]

Differences between DLift and Forg1ven?

[@rokor3578]

you completely forget how many times yasuo has been nerfed since when dyrus was still around

[@robertoeverton6473]

Pool of TSM fans tears on his shirt

[@xyz-xr1qc]

hilarious!

[@aanon4019]

Love how the title is TSM at worlds lol

[@HopemanGG]

Good video, but I think your bitrate might be set too low. @thooorin

[@shadybrain3424]

Biofrost and hauntzer were the only two that didnt choke the entire time

[@TheFunDistraction]

I think each player on tsm should watch this. Your criticism may help them. Also, it sucks because there's not many great players in NA that can always push their carries to their limits in game and help improve by always being proactive and better improve decision making. Edit: me and my cousin just think they need a new coach. Parth was just their analyst until they didn't have a headcoach anymore.

[@jorgemendoza-nr2fc]

Thoughts on C9 at worlds?

[@KuKuKlock123]

Their biggest mistake was trying to play ‘world meta’ when their lives were on the line, game 5. Giving up Janna and going Cait-Lulu was just not good. IMO, Janna is just better in every way vs Lulu. Janna gets you to late game, cuz she can peel, shield, etc... and hyper carry will win. Plus, Janna ult + ardent > Lulu + ardent. Everyone played ok, Impact can really make an impact or he can just get caught out and do nothing. Smoothie > Biofrost... Smoothie is actually proactive and looking to do stuff while Bio is just reactive and waits for things to happen, kinda like Bjerg. Jensen is Jensen, solid and good but not great.

[@jordydepoorter9286]

Hauntzer did OBVIOSLY the best... He played AMAZING!