Thorpe EM-1: A Bullpup Take on the Roller Locked Gerat 06

[@awornoutshoe7802]

"it's free floating inside here, unless it has a spring, which it might. probably does. i bet it's this spring" my favourite moment

[@samholdsworth3957]

My favorite moment is always when I inspect the toilet after a big bowel movement

[@drmaudio]

"Why aren't you firing?" "Sir, my rifle has malfunctioned." "Right, well take cover and turn to page 43 in your manual."

[@Pcm979]

I'm not a gun designer, but I think I can still offer some advice to anyone who wants to be one: If any of your disassembly or assembly steps are known to be prefaced by "I swear I'm not making this up", it's time for another pass.

[@evanator166]

Same could be said about the Winchester 1911 SL with regards to charging the gun. Admittedly they had to work around Browning patenting the concept of using a handle in the bolt to charge the gun but still there is a reason only one gun used that design. My advice to future gun designers don't use the barrel of your long recoil operated gun as the charging handle it is not a good idea.

[@Tuton25]

Garrett Evans I've been keeping my eye out for a Winchester 1911, would be a cool addition to my Remington shotgun collection

[@conorjohn490]

Every year in the service, I found one or two of these types of instructions amongst a handful of technical manuals. Two things are required at that point: you need to do it the way the manual says to do it; and you need to hope the previous 40 guys also did it the way the manual says.

[@grph1t3z]

🤓

[@richard343s]

The plunger is designed to be rotated with a standard issue Mk.1 teaspoon

[@51WCDodge]

The British Army tea spoon requirment, ended up as JCB. :-)

[@fear-is-a-token]

You mean the Spoon, Tea, No.I Mk.1*?

[@LankyAssMofka]

@@fear-is-a-token the * was a crucial improvement to the system

[@JustIn-op6oy]

@@LankyAssMofka did any of the marks of teaspoon have a bayonet lug?

[@tehgreatvak]

"oh hey a roller delayed gun, I wonder why it failed, rollers are easy to deal with and pretty reliable" [5 minutes later] "oh no baby what is you doing"

[@bademoxy]

THE mg42 WAS also ROLLER LOCKED but used a gas boosted reciprocating barrel.

[@davidschneider9145]

@bademoxy Are you sure that it wasn’t just a roller delayed system?

[@gabemando7823]

@@davidschneider9145 yes

[@ArcturusOTE]

@@davidschneider9145 No I think the MG42 is roller locked short recoil action

[@Sheerwater909]

One rifle or three tanks? This looks as if it would have been one of the most expensive service rifles ever conceived. Fascinating bit of British Bullpup history (again) so thanks Ian.

[@ktinga1]

This video is exactly the reason I love this channel (and InRange TV)! 14:40 "And now, we will have a brief intermission while I spend approximately 12 hours figuring out how to reassemble the EM-1." Keep it up, Ian!

[@jeffreyplum5259]

It is common to field strip military arm blindfolded. I shudder to imagine some poor guy trying to do it with this beast. More great work on an armorer's nightmare.

[@bademoxy]

the designer took a left turn from the german engineered stg45 and made the barrel extension come out with the bolt and gas assembly, which way overcomplicated dissassembly and probably degraded accuracy too, since the barrel isn't rigidly bedded within the receiver.

[@JobiWanification]

Its a veritable Pan's Labyrinth of mechanical mystery. The trigger is like Vermont when the finger asks "How do we get to the firing pin?" "You can't get there from here."

[@dragoncast98]

On the outside it's modern with a touch of the old-fashioned, yet on the inside it's a repressed nightmare of over-complication. This just may be the most British firearm ever invented.

[@titytitmk2738]

I love the EM-1 and EM-2 Rifles. Love the .280 cartridge too. Just a correction through, the .280 British bullet was 139 grains in its original config, and later changed to a 140 grain bullet. The casing was also lengethened from 43mm up to 49-51mm depending on variant and those would likely have also been adopted for various roles or even would have replaced the initial .280 design due to more stopping power and a bit more range for very little recoil increase.

[@LazyLifeIFreak]

*disassembly intensifies*

[@gerythionargarys7848]

JOHNNY FIVE IS ALIVE!

[@Lpph96]

Loving the 50s british experimental coverage. Such a fascinating era in firearms - keep them coming!

[@spef7396]

thanks for another great vid ian

[@firstspeffan4845]

spef our lord and savior has returned.

[@firstspeffanfan4071]

First spef Fan you're the greatest youtube commenter on earth. I will sacrifice a goat in your honor.

[@paulturner4503]

ya boi spef is back

[@spef7396]

why does this occur

[@firstspeffanfan4071]

Ivan Pendragon ok *draws nickel plated chiappa rhino*

[@jasonguest5820]

My god. The machines that made this thing are simpler.

[@Taistelukalkkuna]

What is this madness? Are Brits trying to out do Germans in overdesign? Ps. This gun looks like something that jumped out of Fallout series.

[@JaRrYCAW]

Then call HK to fix their guns.

[@ABowlofPho]

Still German engineers and expertise, British ownership doesn't change that.

[@abillysastard5833]

Unemployed British gun engineers went to work at H&K when British aerospace closed enfield i thought Ian said in one of the sa80 vids so it's kinda both German and British engineers :)

[@moneyman12345678901]

are we sure it's not Swiss?

[@rossmum]

Always wanted to see the EM-1, EM-2, and Taden find their way into the games. They're just too perfect a blend of retro-futuristic aesthetics to miss out on.

[@miguelencanarias]

"Private, go disassemble and clean your weapon" "Can I just clean the toilets of the entire barracks with a toothbrush, sir?" "You're a slacker, private!"

[@Steve_MP5]

it's crazy how many different kinds of firearms there are that you've likely never seen or heard about.. awesome!

[@konstantin.v]

I don't think you've described the physics of roller delaying correctly. The idea is not to dissipate the force into the trunnion, but to make the rear part of the bolt assembly go faster then the bolt itself. The force imparted on the rear part of the bolt assembly is actually less this way, but not because it's dissipated somewhere, but because of the physical "lever" that is formed by the rollers and that angled surface, "pivoted" (the lever) at the trunnion.

[@SuperAWaC]

post-ww2 british gun design was, and still is, shenanigans

[@snakeysnake758]

SuperAWaC Yeah I agree but gotta love the SLR

[@wierdalien1]

Snakey Snake to be fair its belgian

[@snakeysnake758]

Alistair Shaw Yeah the only decent rifle they've used was fucking Belgian xD

[@nindger4270]

Firsteerr Lastmwwew In the realm of small arms I have to say: nope, good old free market capitalism did. Let's recall what RSAF Enfield developed in the roughly *40 years* between WWII and when they were shut down: two 30 mm cannons, a few experimental rifles that never went anywhere and the SA80. That is *not* the kind of portfolio that will keep a company afloat. Consequently, as soon as they were thrown to the wolves by Thatcher, they went the way of the dodo. It's a shame for a concern that had such a long and proud history, but that's how capitalism works. Who knows, a little bit more socialism on the part of the British government might even have kept them alive.

[@jwadaow]

Britain created Belgium for that reason.

[@andyd2960]

as quircky as that trigger is, think about the potential advantages it has over other bullpups. I'll bet you could get a crisp light and consistent break every time. unlike the sponge trigger in just about every bullpup ever made.

[@conorjohn490]

Only thing is this is supposed to be a combat rifle not a game of Mousetrap.

[@thenecromorpher]

The EM-1 looks a lot like what I would imagine how a lengthened Groza would look like for a DMR style role or something, but with wooden furnishings.

[@thenecromorpher]

It's just the receiver that's making me see the resemblance though.

[@Deftonesdsm]

gun jesus again saves the day from boredom . Thanks Ian

[@vandabo]

Amazing find, and so cool that you were able to do the two similar guns together. This is exactly what I love about this channel and your work. Proud to be a patreon backer!

[@LexBear]

Its interesting to see how these British weapon platforms eventually came full circle. Started off being based off of a German design that would go on to be H&K, with the British bullpup eventually ending up being the SA80 and having to be fixed by none other than H&K themselves.

[@betaich]

The development that lead to the G36 began in the 1970s. It entered German army service in 1997 way before the British issued the A2 contract.

[@bushyfromoz8834]

H&K was a British owned company when it was contracted to fix the SA, 80 though

[@MidnightSvn]

British steal german design, fuck it up over time, have to be remade by germans. We fought on the wrong side

[@VinaX2R]

I just saw you in Hydraulic Press Channel's video. That was unexpected surprise :)

[@Soykha]

Can't find it anywhere :'( Would you mind giving me a link?

[@StanislavG.]

Fuck yeah! Ian is a headbanger! :)

[@VinaX2R]

He's at 1:30

[@jjkroll32]

Guten c

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Those Royal Armouries guys must loooooove you. You've been doing a lot of pieces with them lately. 7:25 - Is that the first time someone's put the selector switch in that ergonomically pleasing and familiar position on a rifle?

[@HellYeahCorp]

You learned to pronounce "Gerät" correctly inside one video. Impressive!

[@artfact2]

The EM2 video was the first one I saw of yours. Still an incredibly beautiful rifle!

[@MrDmitriRavenoff]

I am always astounded by how you disassemble all these fiddly little bits of co.plex engineering.

[@jesuizanmich]

That firing pin lever is quite clever. It looks overly complex, but they solve the problem of the transfer bar and squishy trigger. There's no need to transfer the trigger pull back to the hammer, because the hammer is at the front. It also solves firing out of battery, which was a problem with bouncing roller delayed bolts. With that lever, the hammer cannot strike the firing pin unless the bolt is all the way forward.

[@StuSaville]

Can anybody explain the origin of the term Bullpup?

[@StuSaville]

jgarfunkle But why name a firearm design after them? Were they simply insinuating that these types of rifles are ugly and misshapen or is there more to the story?

[@evanator166]

The earliest example I can think of is the Webley Bulldog revolver in 1872. My best guess is that the name originates from bulldogs being short in stature but fierce. It is likely a descriptor and a marketing tool when used to describe firearms.

[@evanator166]

Right as in bullpup referring to bulldogs I think so but have no evidence of that or why either name got associated with certain firearms.

[@pcka12]

Thanks very much for showing this rifle to us, I have been curious about this model for years, and information was sparse. In my opinion as what is a prototype after all it is an impressive rifle and if further development had been allowed might well have become more 'soldier proof'. The central issue with all of these rifles is the 280 British cartridge which is a very interesting concept, however i have wondered why they did not simply use 6.5 swedish mauser (currently 260 remington might work)

[@Arthurzeiro]

Good grief, the ammount of machining required is hard to imagine... It's british, better leave a "Good Show Lads" at the end.

[@chrisf247]

6:15 it looks like you've got enough parts for two guns there.

[@toledo152]

More greatness from forgotten weapons.

[@integral32gb]

Hello Ian. Excellent video once again. I'll pull you up on one thing. You mentioned and demo'd (7:50/16:20) the need to poke your finger up inside the mag well to release the bolt from the locked back position. The EM-1 and EM-2 both have a double spring shared pivot mag/bolt release system. Simply this means the mag release lever can be pushed towards the magazine to release the mag and also pulled away from the mag to release the bolt. I'm sure Jonathan Ferguson would be happy to confirm this and maybe do a short video of this in action that you could addendum to the presentation. Looking forward to your EM-2 video with shooting footage, however for those who hope to see the .280 version in action are going to be disappointed, there are no .280 ammo rounds available anywhere in UK.

[@alexandermarinin7036]

Ian, please, few words on .270 British guns

[@tacomancers12356789]

more complicated than the Fedorov? (which you did disassemble way back when...)

[@JuicyHostage]

So Ian, when will you start disassembling German two-handed swords and Italian rapiers for the channel? Your channel is called Forgotten WEAPONS after all, not just Forgotten FIREARMS.

[@ozdavemcgee2079]

One interesting thing I find with this is the cover over the optic. Protective as it is I think it would have had quite a good effect sheilding reflection off the lense giving away the shooters possie

[@TheRealMrMultigrain]

saw you in the hydraulic press video, rocking out at tuska. rock on dude, great vid as always

[@alanch90]

I wish someday you get the chance to get your hands on some of those soviet prototypes that competed against the AK, like the TKB-408 bullpup

[@vguyver2]

Talk about over engineered, and my heart sank as he kept disassembling it. I imagine it being expensive as well.

[@AKBear12]

dem british love these bullpup design

[@Akm72]

Makes a lot of sense if you envisage your troops spending a lot of time inside APCs and other vehicles but you still want a full length barrel on your rifle when you dismount and have to fight.

[@MikeDCWeld]

Do you think there would have been bolt endcaps made in different weights if the design had been developed further? That seems like a pretty nifty way to adjust rate of fire or tune for finicky cartridge loads.

[@fitnready4]

Great video Ian

[@liamf5311]

I fucking love it. The ingenuity?????? Awesome

[@raijinmeister]

Weapons collections in museums are like the Chad version of those collections. "Yeah, you can step on this very rare weapon to disassemble it, no problem."

[@Orbytum]

Ian, please, this is an emergency! I live in a state with very restrictive gun laws and, therefore, have been reduced to plinking with a Daisy Powerline 880. The manual that came with it mentioned pumping the rifle' s pneumatic system to allow it to fire out to about 250 yards. could you please do a video on whether it would be able to accurately fire at that range. Keep up the great work. You're helping plenty of people like me also enjoy the wonderful sport of plinking!

[@scotthancock9592]

Mikhail Borochin It would probably go that far but it would take a lot of skill to hit much. There will be quite a bit of drop and wind drift. Not to say you couldn't but for best accuracy you might want to stay within 50 yards or so. Never know until you try!

[@Orbytum]

Scott Hancock I know. I just wanted to see whether or not Daisy is worth it's word, at least in the hands of shooters better than me.

[@raijinmeister]

The way how the trigger work is almost like those complex traps from *Tom&Jerry.* I bet it plays their theme too.

[@tjp353]

With the EM-1 & 2, it's interesting that they chose to develop & test 2 different lock up methods in a deliberately similar rifle configuration. Have any other rifle development programs also done this?

[@tjp353]

@@smorrow I'm not on Patreon but it would be interesting to hear his answer. Thanks.

[@alexandrecunha8850]

Pretty neat,are there other roller delayed bullpups out there?

[@havareriksen1004]

The tiny tube optics may seem awfully out of date, but in fact both the G36 and the F2000 came with small tube, low magnification, rather junky optical sights. So quite recently gun designers in both Germany and Belgium thought like the british back then. It didn't take long before they got feed back from prospecting buyers that had their rifles on trial that it was a bad idea, and they all came with picatinny rails instead. The Steyr AUG also came with an integrated low power (1.5x) optical sight, but the quality of the sight was good so users put up with it for many years, until relatively recently. Steyr tried to update the AUG, most notably dropping the sight in favor of a picatinny rail, to compete with newer designs, but has clearly fallen behind now.

[@2Potates]

That is a very interesting hammer mechanism, they should've developed the idea of building the fireing mechanism into the bolt carrier futher.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

Just a random thought I had, but why hasn't anyone tried making a blow-forward bullpup?

[@LivingInTheLimeligh7]

I designed one and made some schematics, the main issues I came across are how it is going to cock the hammer when it is behind the action's travel, and how it chambers cartridges.

[@MaxB00M]

Vargposter The main problem is that blow forward is a retarded concept

[@joezzzify]

STOP VARGPOSTING

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Not at all. Bullpups are a niche concept for a niche roll. In a tight urban setting or the confined spaces of a vehicle, you're goddamn right I want a bullpup over a more conventional design.

[@LivingInTheLimeligh7]

Verfügenichtüberdienötigekreativität In a bullpup, it allows for an extra 4" or so of barrel length for overall length, so it is not at all a "retarded concept".

[@mrjockt]

There is no way that rifle would have been accepted for service without some major changes to the disassembly procedures.

[@ostrowulf]

Looks heavy to carry through the bush, and a pain to disassemble to clean. An interesting firearm, but I am sure I would curse it's manufacturer if I had to carry it as a soldier. It does look cool, and I would love to take one to a range, because I would love to fire any rifle I have not fired before. I do like the mag's stripper clip guide, not so much the being able to see so much through the ejection port.

[@teggy689]

I assume the next video is EM-1 vs EM-2? So...what about EM-2 vs SA80? I'm hoping when you recorded the EM-2 video you put those two side by side hahaha but seriously upload it already! I can't wait... There's an idea for Hill and Mac gunworks, make an EM-2 in something like 6.8 SPC or 260 Remington!

[@JimBrodie]

I can't recall having ever seen a pair of your inspection gloves so filthy.

[@ogilkes1]

British engineering, I love it!

[@ta2joe13]

sorry, my mistake. It's the MacGyver gun as designed by Rube Goldberg

[@nestrac]

It's the British Leyland of rifles.... It kinda does what it's supposed to do but takes a very complicated way to do it and the alternatives is way better....

[@JustIn-op6oy]

The manual has a manual. They're both over 200 pages long and have an associated slideshow.

[@Vincent-S]

good lord when you pulled the guts of the gun out and showed it on the table, I thought I was looking at a Swiss gun for a split second! I wonder how different this is from the internals of the EM-2, which I also read somewhere, is also a bit of a pain to machine.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I have a pair of videos on the EM2 next week, so you will be able to see...

[@Vincent-S]

Forgotten Weapons awesome, looking forward to them! especially after seeing your .308 EM-2 vid back then.

[@acdclexu6296]

some stuff is a pretty swiss way to do stuff, clever but pretty complex

[@othellocarr-jones7580]

Given that you're looking at the EM series at the moment, is there any scope for seeing the TADEN machine gun that was developed alongside it?

[@Akm72]

Excellent point, the only pictures I've seen on the TADEN is some pretty low resolution video and pictures.

[@howardchambers3163]

Akm72 armourersbench.com/tag/taden/

[@von_nobody]

11:23 this spring was loose before you pull pin, this was probably from another part.

[@samsungtv4u]

tnx Royal armerry

[@emsea7279]

Amazing . Great job

[@GODOFGUITAR2112]

It's amazing that a bullpup from the late 40's has better ergonomics than some "modern" bullpups.

[@rossmum]

Given the tendency for more 'traditional' bullpup triggers to be absolutely horrendous, I wonder how this system compares in terms of trigger pull. It seems like it'd give a big improvement there as you're not relying on a long and sometimes flimsy bar to transfer the pull, although obviously it brings about quite a bit of added complexity...

[@hazakdds7366]

No wonder they took a pass on the EM-1. Thanks Ian.

[@LaterMeansBrick]

I think the disassembly is so complex to keep them soldiers occupied on the long cold nights...

[@AV-uv9kx]

Yet encountered? What's about the an-94?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Tough call - but I actually filmed this a couple days before I started messing with the AN94.

[@benmillward7765]

Very complex trigger mechanism. Any idea what the trigger pull weight/feel is like.

[@Spitsz01]

Great vid Ian! thx mate.

[@jyjaxon]

Is that a bipod mount in front of the front sling swivel?

[@Pprokop87]

Damn those Brith. Do they have to complicate everything they put their hands on?

[@corporalpunishment1133]

Excellent

[@CheshireTomcat68]

Where's the gold damascene version?

[@burlatsdemontaigne6147]

I seem to remember that the Lewis Gun was the pretty difficult to strip too.

[@burkewarren3239]

Can you do a comparison of different Mausers made during WWII, ones like the original Kar98k, and the Yugo M48?

[@PvtRyan-ke4of]

Doesn´t the "H" in Gerät 06(H) stands for "Haenel"?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Nope. Technically, it's Gerät 06H, without parentheses.

[@PvtRyan-ke4of]

Ok, thank you!

[@genericpersonx333]

British military small-arm designs from the 1880s onwards seem to always be a bit more complicated than most of their foreign counterparts I find. Not a lot more complicated, but they seem less scared of guns with more bits and extra manufacturing demands than most. This one, however, was clearly beyond the Pale.

[@exploatores]

I think I still want the Gerat 06 if i have to pick any of those two.

[@davidgreen5099]

The roller delayed get is very simple to field strip.

[@cherenkov_blue]

It is a complete and utter mystery to me as to why they didn't use roller delayed blowback instead. The Gerät 06H was about as well known as the original Gerät 06, as was the rationale for developing the delayed blowback version. _They purposefully chose to reintroduce a step of complexity that their inspiration removed._ Why???

[@51WCDodge]

The British Aquisiton Committe tradition; Everyone want's their bit added. We are designing a small light weight device to enter holes for observations. Started as a mouse, ended up an Elephant.

[@ristoalanko9281]

What was the socket-like thing on the front handguard?

[@rossmum]

For a bipod, IIRC.

[@RABLACKKNIGHTS]

Holy crap what a thing. Glad we adopted the SA80

[@Sh1tbagActual]

So, it's a Striker-fired hammer?

[@painmagnet1]

I'd love to own 99% of the firearms Ian shows us. Not so with the Thorpe, what a nightmare. The Brits dodged the devil with that one!

[@CoreySimmons85]

How did they zero the scope? I'm guessing the thing is fixed to its mount with no internal adjustments and the mount itself has elevation and windage built in?

[@paulevans3261]

Ian... Good lord, You lost me on this when you first started to take this apart!!! I take it there was NO way to field strip this weapon.... Just saying! Cam understand why it was dropped!!As always, a great video, I learn so much watching and listening to you! I thank You

[@shainemaine1268]

How does a stripper-clip work with a magazine with feed-lips?

[@AntonAdelson]

I find it super crazy that this was a contemporary of AK47!

[@niallcampbell2694]

Is this the original ugg boot stock definite similarity to the scar stock

[@joshuabrown4030]

Jfc, I'm surprised ordnance didn't take one look at the internals and decide to revert to the Martini-Henry!

[@DanielWW2]

And they say that the Germans over engineer. Well, the Gerät 06 easily beats this thing, and the 06H would probably give the fabled AKM a run for its money in terms of simplicity. Really, how do you get from such a simple and effective design to this? :P

[@bademoxy]

had rene studler not been dictator in chief of the US army munitions and an actual brain running that show, the EM1 cartridge with the performance mods that american wildcatters are known for , could have outperformed the 7.62 at 600 meters , especially necked down a bit more to perhaps 6mm and loaded with a long -100 gr fmj sbt with a b.c. of +.550 and muzzle velocity of over 2900 fps would have plenty of stopping power at close range (hydrostatic shock)and superior armor penetration as far as one could hit. there wouldn't have been a 7.62 x 51 because it wouldn't have been as effective.