Timothy Snyder "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin" Feb 24 2013

00:00 Intro
17:13 Lecture Begins

[@naalsocomment9449]

I don't understand this habit to start a presentation with a lengthy introduction speech. Here the organizor made an introduction to hand over to guy who introduced another guy who introduced a women who introduced Snyder. 17 minutes in the presentation eventually starts.

[@miroslawkorek6843]

Thank you for the help I started listening at min 17 😊

[@Historian212]

It’s how it’s done in academia.

[@July41776DedicatedtoTheProposi]

It is all about who controls the funding and supports continuance of the funding.

[@philodonoghue3062]

Yes These long winded introductions which seem more to do with academic egos are damned annoying The title caption should explicitly state the time stamp when the guest speaker starts

[@jukebox5600]

​@Phil O'Donoghue bro, youre a big boy, you can scroll lmao youtube even has the feature to see the vid as you scroll

[@JasonCunliffe]

17:13 START of Timothy Snyder lecture

[@asadfami7623]

Thank you Sir.

[@gcingia]

Many thanks indeed.

[@torontolarrivee7965]

This practice of having one introducer introducing the next introducer is always annoying but this takes it to new heights.

[@burnyizland]

You the GOAT. Thank you for this.

[@Ellelilly8666]

10 years later in 2023 its chilling to listen to hear this and how much the past is our current present. Thank you Mr Snyder for all of the hard work you do and your dedication to exploring history and sharing with us all.

[@elizabethkeller6040]

My thoughts exactly . My BEAUTIFUL STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA week ago, horrific gov pushed thru this f cking hillstead social studies for k-12. Every single principle/ect fought this change. Going to cost state $$$$$$$. gov refuses to allow free breakfast & lunches, much needed. Took away crt, ,,,,,,,you dumb b itch, it is not even taught. Radical abortion banning. However, gov, how is Cory?

[@lightypower3412]

history does NOT repeat tho

[@M_Lopez_3D_Artist]

He was right about Ukraine that is for sure

[@healthml1265]

Look at the Holocaust happening in Gaza

[@19eightyforeisnow]

​@@lightypower3412it might not repeat but it certainly rhymes.

[@berniestarzewski5482]

My father was a survivor of the 43 uprising. He documented his experiences in his memoir.

[@leorivers7759]

His explainations of this material over the last 5 years have only become more clairified and compelling.

[@mikeroberts4873]

Brilliant!!

[@piusxiv]

Prophetic as I listen to this on 6.22.23

[@harveyyoung3423]

Note 2: At 29:00 mins: It maybe of interest to know that the 1920 Spa conference that set the Eastern frontier of Poland after the First World war although called the "Curzon Line" was actually done by the Kantian Philosopher H. J. Paton. This is from Thomas Baldwin's recollections from his tutor Casimir Lewy who called it the "Paton Line". Thomas Baldwin "Philosophy and the First World War" in "The Cambridge History of Philosophy 1870-1945". (ed. Thomas Baldwin 2012 pg 369)

[@AmBotanischenGarten]

Excellent presentation...why did it take from 2013 to 2023 to post it?

[@SteffenRoller]

Because Prof. Snyder gained a lot of fame recently. So the university might have been happy to find a presentation from him they could publish. (Slightly tongue in cheek)

[@whitepanties2751]

Great lecture, but does it really need an introduction to an introduction to an introduction to an introduction to the lecture, each from a different person? Lecture proper begins just after 17 minutes of introduction to introduction to...

[@mollythefatcat956]

I am so glad I found this. Especially about the dialectic (spelling?) .. how you explain away an awful thing by saying a good thing also happened. This is exactly how the communist China explain away the students killed in Tianmen Square, their narrative is how stabilizing the country buy stifling all revolts brought prosperity to China. Fundamentally different things!

[@donaldkepple4927]

A good history writer will make the reader feel like they are in what they are talking

[@vparakhin]

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote in his book "The Gulag Archipelago" that the Russian Communists executed roughly 60 million of the Soviet citizens by means of Gulags, mass starvation and mass shootings. Because Stalin was an ally of the United States and Britain during the WWII, the amount of victims during Stalin's reign of terror is routinely diminished but Hitler's is exaggerated.

[@eholm101]

Peoples politics can influence their interpretation of course, but I think there is debate about how accurate Solzhenitsyns writings are in terms of factual and statistical accuracy isn’t that? Solzhenitsyn was a politically persecuted and an element of his writing is resistance and the stories of people living the the gulag under the Soviet state. It’s not 100% nonfiction history. That’s what I’ve read at least.. What exaggeration of the deaths caused by Hitlers regime are you mentioning?

[@vparakhin]

@@eholm101 I agree with you. Many of the radical left-wingers for decades have challenged Solzhenitsyn's numbers, in order to justify Stalin's regimes' horrifying atrocities against the Soviet people.

[@mikhailkill]

…AND…Stalin helped Hitler start WWII by ordering the signing of the non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany…THEN…the Soviet Union invaded Poland…and…THEN…a bit later…Finland…disgusting…AND hardly ANYONE concentrates on these FACTS…AND…the idea that Stalin agreed to the non-aggression pact…paving the way to the murderous Holocaust by the Nazis…bought Stalin time to confront the Nazis remains an ABSURD NOTION…if such remains true why is that Stalin invaded Poland with his current crop of officers in charge and why…shortly thereafter…did he embark on the Finnish campaign with…more or less…the same group of officers?! 😡

[@extanegautham8950]

@7:25, what a beautiful new york accent.....

[@Hasan-px3sd]

Starts 17:00

[@mikeswilp6001]

SADLY , HISTORY WILL REPEAT ITSELF .

[@barnham9388]

Madagascar was itself just as intensely murderous in its own way - even if you put aside the logistics of such a mass deportation the Nazis were fully aware of studies which suggested Madagascar had capacity to support maybe 60,000 deported citizens - so to dump many hundreds of thousands or more on the island would have been just as murderous as it was harebrained and fanciful.

[@garyjohnson1466]

Very interesting…

[@harveyyoung3423]

At 27:00 mins. Kant's mathematical synchrony is conditioned by a representational conceptual axiom in intuition. The causal dynamic is conditioned by a conceptual series: Rules, and so a history as a narrative and reference has to be a narrative conceptual determined. the problem is though that then this representation and causation can only be of an appearance though a single series order. While this allows facts to be presented determinately and objectivity and so a mathematical metric space is possible (synchronically and diachronically related) it does so at the cost of being limited to the particular conceptual construction of a time line a particular conceptual narrative. So Kant can also claim this is also only subjective appearance, not the thing in itself. So there are necessarily alternative concepts narratives and metrics and causes that can be constructed. the point then of all these being in a sense "co-present in the same place" is the problem of understanding how these are in play at once. its not a problem of ordinary cognitive epistemic synthesis, as this is already taken up as the schematism as 12 single series constructions of one concept. In a way I think Kant's notion of the manifold of intuition is this, but its is not therefore to be understood as a synthetics putting together of pre existent series, rather the series are abstracted out of the manifold, and the synthesis is the structure of constructing a series. I have an analogy for this: i imagine in the ancient world they wanted to have soldiers fight each other in tests and maybe games, but it would be too dangerous and costly. So they abstract the art of combat into a group of syntheses series like activities, a decathlon. Now the soldiers can compete with each other and even themselves. they have constructed 10 objective metric spaces of ten event concepts. Now of course the problem of synthesis is not how to put the 10 events together but to see their abstracted relation from the original gladiator art. i think Kant alludes to this problem in his discussion of the mathematical and dynamic sublime. in a way like Wittgenstein the 10 separate events look like they are possibility both infinitely divisible into atomic parts and infinitely long. This makes it look like seeking the original gladiator in itself is a paradoxical and insoluble problem concerned with multiple infinities. but of course the infinity problem for a time and space line is a pseudo problem when we see aright that its is an abstraction for a gladiator extended beyond the condition of the gladiator itself. the problem then is not mathematical in this way but about the aesthetic grasp of something not for use, even though we are tied to express only in conceptual series narratives. I was influenced in this from Arendt's approach in "Eichmann in Jerusalem". She focused on the multiple systems and projects and polices as functions series and how they coincide at a place and point in time, to understand that event. There is a risk that agency and responsibly can get lost in this though. I my self decided to look at several different narrative histories told of different peoples of the U.S. in the 20th century and of lots of other events not really parts of any narratives at all. and the whole understanding changes when you take a place and a point in time and "see" all the different narratives as co-incidental at a point in time and space. Too much single series abstract narrative going on in history these days. the problem though is not to try and synthesise these into mathematical dynamic sublime infinites and multiple metrics of justices, but to see a situation and event with them all bearing down at once. I have focused on the US because there are many lectures and book on this (Kant's near completed sciences) I am from the UK and an example for me is too try and see policy from the point of view of a Prime Minister with many projects always already in motion and many events going on at the same time. When Covid happened the first meeting along with all the big stuff, had a mention of who would walk the dog at number ten since this was an issue already to be dealt with. Nobody attacked Boris Johnson on that bit of infinite atomic detail. He did not take the state of emergency to a infinite dictatorship policy, but they got him on an infinitely small atomic cake in the end anyway.

[@harveyyoung3423]

I'm up to 38:00 mins. This is great but in reference to my post above I disagree with Mr Snyder on his exposition of dialectics as an attempt at a synthesis of opposites. Rather I would say dialectics is the activity of find things processes etc that have becomes opposites or become expressed as opposed. Kant called the second part of the CPR "Transcendental Dialectics i think because he is recognising that this kind of sorting of metaphysical things out is not a ready given table but is also his construction (I drew this from a discussion with a collage many years ago). So the implications, as of my point above, is that dialectics are already post abstractions and as such it is not appropriate to think of a synthesis but of an original context they are abstracted from. the task then is different. especial since they are already in a mode of a series as unconditioned and unlimited. To do so is like thinking there is a problem of the synthesis of absolute unconditioned infinite welfare, and absolute infinite individuals unconditioned aggregate GDP. of course these are impossibly abstract and neither is possible without the other in play. so synthesis of dialectics here is a pseudo problem, but there is a dialectical problem of recognition of mutual determinations. This alters the notion of determination far away from Hegel and possibly Kant too. compare a Fourier analysis of a complex harmonic oscillation. it surly will have no necessarily relation to the actual mechanical system that is producing a segment of it, and so there is no scene to made made of a synthesis of the set of Fourier analyses series here. Like wise, there is not a problem of Byzantine complexity more a problem of gothic intertwining. Its 11:30pm here in the UK. I have never come across Mr Snyder before, I thought this would be just a quick interesting lecture before a movie. I'll return tomorrow for the rest of this lecture and probably many more he has done. Many thanks for posting this.

[@harveyyoung3423]

Part1: So at 35:00 Snyder I think correctly shows the limits of “explanation”. He views this I think in terms of the “possibility” of causal laws. The problem then seems to be that the possibility of causal laws requires the conceptual construction of series in time and in terms of the subsequent future use as predication such a metaphysical construction of series projected into the future “necessity” would have to be both in play and maintained or actively maintainable over time. This is a historical version of Kant’s principles for laws of nature, that conservation continuity are conditions for the possibility of history as predication, and conditions of causes thought of as laws i.e. nomolgical. The Critical point is not that such laws don’t exists in nature as history, but that the viva active, active mind in the world as finite and place and time has not the power to actively maintain them. So while mind must and can put necessity into nature in the architecture of physical apparatus in an experiment, this is not possible in history and even in the positive or other human sciences. There is thus a dis-analogy in applying Kant’s necessary and universal synthetic a priori principles from experimental physics to action in history.

[@harveyyoung3423]

Part 2: In the 19th century of course the idea of the enlightenment control of nature was engaged in projects to applied enlightenment thinking to man via the humans sciences. In a way I think they recognised in these scientific projects there was indeed an a priori requirement to “control” the variables, which manifested as increasingly governmental and non-governmental institutions bring in mass policy action into the human world in a way to try and activity control that world so their own conception of these science was possible. That is for example in this picture economic stability has to be maintained through economic science in policy action, so that there can be the possibility even, of economic social and psychological sciences. The re configuration of European Politics and society though the enlightenment creation of nation states, is absolutely tied to the vision of making economic science possible. Its explicit in both the left and right interpretations of Hegel, and is not really I serious conflict with positivism from this point of view. The 20th century states and wars and dictatorships are thus not antithetical to the enlightenment and even the conservative Aristotelian reading of Hegel and Romanticism. State control and centralisation is implicit in the concept of the enlightenment control of nature and active science. While there is a post World War Two attempt to separate dictatorship from the enlightenment particularly cold war liberalism this was more strategic than good understanding. So the problem is not just Schmitt’s Political Theology of Exceptionalism as an enlightenment outlier or heterogeneous to the enlightenment rational science, it is always an inherent potential and possibility within the enlightenment its self when over concerned with the active maintenance of conditions of stability.

[@harveyyoung3423]

Part 3: Now, the error then is to think there must be multiple series nomic acts of order, each directed at its own series in abstraction. One way the error of this this kind of project manifests as error is brought out by Habermas’s systems science approach, where there are hidden external costs to the activity in and of a one dimensional abstraction project. Such manifestations he calls “Legitimacy Crisis” of course everything looked fine on the one dimensional balance sheet. This because the space of probability there presupposes a single series “necessity” to close down metaphysical possibility into a finite empirical probability space of one as the sum of all possible outcomes. This then is wrong. In a real system before the series metaphysical abstraction and closure of “undetermined” possibility into finite probability by active necessity happens, there are we might put it wildly difference degrees of freedom in this system as a whole. These cannot show up as freedoms within the constraints of say the axioms of probability theory a point I believe made by Popper against Braithwaite and so on. Today these problems are still addressed but within the mathematics of axioms a symmetry in van Frazzen and Bell. But really the issue with history and the human sciences is between C. G. Hemple on laws of history and science and von Wright on explanation verse understanding and Peter Winch. Now is a shift to an Aristotelian teleology of purpose and progress as itself now rethought and re-presented as metric symmetric task of social economic science of multiple data justices. Clearly a return to 19the century options with the possible or potential consequences not forgotten, but worse, thought of as alterities to these ways of thinking.

[@harveyyoung3423]

Part 4: Its not surprising that if we do not recognise that the extreme of the enlightenment and romanticism are just that, extremes not outsiders, we can wrongly think the enlightenment is fine and it is nation states, or just states, that are the problem, and maybe opt for a project of international rules and or International human rights and in Hegelian terms sublate the state to the transcendent idea of rules and laws. The enlightenment project becomes disconnected from the state and is autonomous and within non state international institutions. There is mythical support for this in the conflation of human independent laws of nature that know no national boundries, and its human version that there are transcendent socio economic laws that are independent of place and time and context. And then to the idea there are as such transnational laws natural laws and natural rights independent of states. It is indeed the stand point of the institutions of international university. The view from the lecture theatre written in books journals. Hegels Speculative Reason and the project of bring everything under laws of so called reflective freedom, which are transcendent of consent, and for everybody now based in evidence transcendent institutions of anonymity. I think Arendt may have thought it a mistake to think Rights in abstraction of States no as such homo secure, but a mealy homo nomological econimious. Sorry I can’t resist mentioning Eddy Cochran’s Summer Time Blues here.

[@PortlandsTransport]

What a fantastic lecture. My whole model of the Holocaust was wrong

[@ldkbudda4176]

Holocaust is an industry to colect funds...

[@schwinn434]

If you think the lecture is good wait until you read his book - “Blood Land”!

[@barnham9388]

It’s comical how long the opening introductions are…

[@TheWhitehiker]

starts at about 17.00.

[@HermunthrudaWaldheim]

18 Minutes of introduction.

[@perun814]

stalin said...im gona end the german problem once and for all

[@drbrainstein1644]

I’ve been taking the position that we have to put just as much emphasis on the history of the Soviets that we do with the Nazis. Not to diminish the Holocaust, which is what the politics suggests, but rather to understand it. Timothy Snyder has done the Holocaust industry a great service. Now let’s focus on the history of Marxism and it’s global leftist cohorts so we can understand this time period with a more honest and balanced approach.

[@ciarypowykonie3096]

So for starters you should try to understand that marxism has very little to do with current left ideologies.

[@drbrainstein1644]

@@ciarypowykonie3096 What are you talking about? Neoleftism has replaced class with race and identity politics going back from Gramsci, Marcuse, postmodernism etc… It’s all part of the same lineage going back to Gnosticism and hermetics no????

[@drbrainstein1644]

@@ciarypowykonie3096 Maybe you can help me out by naming the philosophers of modern leftism over the last century. Thanks

[@musicandfilms9956]

Indeed. Let's see Snyder's right-wing propaganda for what it is.

[@zeketheflyingpenguin8585]

@@drbrainstein1644 The "Holocaust Industry?" Spoken like a true Nazi...go watch your hero, Donald Trump.

[@nenad6787]

Древние новгородцы разговаривали на руССком языке! Одно из первых упоминаний про русский язык, написано через двойну букву "С", Новгород, 1130-1156гг. О том манастыри идет к ним кресты въздвизает попин цернецъ не игоумен в роусстемъ, а в гречестем игоуменъ. Фото: архиепископ Нифонт новгородский, который писал слово русский через двойную букву С , на 900 лет до Петра Великого.

[@ldkbudda4176]

Александр Невский - гауляйтер ордынский резал и убивал новгородцев, Иван Грозный вырезал там всех !!!

[@eskokauppila1327]

"...don't be bloodlands! be friendship with russia

[@musicandfilms9956]

... which is better than war.

[@heater5979]

Friendly with Russia and Russians, maybe. However there is no way we can be friendly with the current regime in Russia or the thousands of Russian troops in Ukraine that are destroying everything in sight and committing genocide. Certainly not with the criminal leader Putin. And not with the millions of Russians that support his tyrannical and murderous regime. The only way to halt the continuation of bloodlines is to push Russia out of Ukraine and for the world to demonstrate that it will not tolerate such behaviour. The name you write under here suggests you are from Finland. If so you are the first Finn I have heard supporting Putin's invasion and war. Pretty much everyone else here tells me stories of the suffering their families suffered at the hands of the Russians in "bloodlands" times.

[@johnsnowkumar359]

Professors with German last names are extensively used to speak up on such such subjects in the western hemisphere after the fall of communism in order to prevent Russian Federation from joining NATO membership and EU membership. After the fall of communism, the desire on the part of members of the deep state and American tourists travelling in East Europe, stems from the American veterans of Iraq wars who committed war crimes. Some veterans of Iraq wars between 2003 and 2009 who had massacred 400,000 to 500,000 Iraqi Arabs fought. roughly from 2003 to 2009. President Obama withdrew the troops as more information emerged of massacre of Iraqi veterans. So modern American administrations only want to send troops to Europe. Average human being who indulges in mass murders such as American veterans of Iraq wars had a built in desire to commit another mass murder. Mass shooters become permanently mass murderers, if not persecuted. Veterans of Iraq wars were never persecuted, as President Obama withdrew these troops. Average Iraq veteran when speaking to lawmakers on the Hill say something like, "I would like to commit massacre after the fall of communism in this peaceful era after the Iraq wars. Average official in Washington replies to Veterans of Iraq wars: during the period from 210 to 2021 replies," My dear Veterans of Iraq wars. Please delay your desires to indulge in mass shootings in the western hemisphere. Please go to Kyiv. We will charter flights for you to go to Kyiv, as city contested between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians. Kill some ethnic Russians in Russian neighborhoods there and in East Ukraine."

[@barbechivo]

A lot of talk but not much meaning.

[@zeketheflyingpenguin8585]

Yeah, that describes your comment perfectly.

[@barbechivo]

@@zeketheflyingpenguin8585 your opioids are calling.

[@schwinn434]

His book should be required college reading - the most interesting history book I’ve read ( not for child readers, though).

[@darylbeyers2719]

🤡

[@jamiecollins6832]

12 mins I gave up. What great teaches u are

[@MarcelProust63]

the lecture starts after 17:00

[@jamieshannon9019]

Yeah its his fault. If Talking about how millions upon millions of people were brutally murdered in different ways between these two madmen Is it enough to keep your attention longer than twelve minutes they go watch cartoons