Tolerance in Islamic Spain - Myth or Reality? - WOTW EP 6 P2

Tolerance in Islamic Spain is a fiercely debated subject. Was Spain under the Moors a period of enlightened co-existence between the three major religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism? Did these people come together to build an advanced society where 'convivencia' existed? Or was this all just a myth that is perpetuated by revisionist historians?
The story continues in part 2
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[@gogolgullu]

Your pronunciation of 'Cordoba' and 'Hindu' really impressed me in this video. These videos just keep getting better! I love the fact that you read multiple books to get different viewpoints on the cultural situation in al-Andalus. It is so refreshing to get a such a nuanced look at history without doing a considerable amount of reading. I thank you for these podcasts.

[@FlashPointHx]

Thank you for the kind words! I’m really happy you liked the video. When I got to this question on cultural heritage I realized right away there were a lot of conflicting views. If I didnt have a pro and con viewpoint my narrative would have come across biased. Please continue to follow and spread word of the podcast. All the best!

[@FlashPointHx]

Hello everyone - Episode 6 continues into the high point of Islamic Spain - was it also a high point of Tolerance as well? If you liked this - please spread word about the KZbin channel and share on social media. Its the only way a channel like this can grow. Consider contributing on Patreon as all funds are needed and used to make videos like this possible. You can also download the podcast to go on your media player. Thank you! CHAPTERS 0:25 Hasdai Ibn Shaprut - 949 C.E. 10:00 The Monk - 999 C.E.

[@SirHappyThe1st]

Have you ever heard of the Pact of Umar or Charter of Umar? because Spain operated under the same rules which is why there were so many rebellions.

[@justahuman00]

​@@SirHappyThe1st Cry.

[@antonludwigaugustvonmacken8680]

Thank God you have your stuff on spotify. I'm about to send some support your way.

[@FlashPointHx]

Yeah - I had the option of putting it there from my base in libsyn. Thanks!

[@sambadi6634]

First series/videos on youtube ever i liked before starting to watch. Great talent of delivering well-balanced narrative. 👍

[@FlashPointHx]

Wow, thanks! Appreciate that - I did about 3 months worth of reading for this one episode

[@Mentox2]

You videos are amaizng and really underapreciated.

[@FlashPointHx]

Hey thank you for our kind words ! Glad you like my content - feel free to share on social media - hoping to get the channel to grow.

[@gezzoz]

When I get a stable income, I will support you, love your content

[@FlashPointHx]

Gustav - just happy you liked the video!

[@Tait0o]

Thank you for your nuanced replies and videos. All your comments and videos are a realization of ethical scientific discourse, as it was practices in the dialogues of Platon. You don't try to force your own opinion on others, rather you showcase different point of views in a deferential and faithful way. I really enjoy your content and hold you in high regard for the way you present it. Please keep up the great work!

[@FlashPointHx]

Thank you so much for this lovely and insightful comment! I try my best to portray the history with a middle of the road approach to get others interested. For this particular episode, I realized that there are such poignant and contrasting views that in the end I doubt anybody has a definitive grasp on what happened. There was an expression I heard which goes, “follow the person who seeks the truth, but always question those who say they know the truth.” Please let me know what you think of the rest of the series!

[@Tait0o]

@@FlashPointHx Gladly, I will share my opinion on the rest of the series. You totally deserve more comments and subscriptions. That such a thing as a definitive grasp on what happened exists seems quite doubtful for me too. Even in situations in the relative near past there are different interpretations based on different worldviews. Adding to that the need for wider interpretation of historic finds and the sparsity of historic records and for me it is clear that a myriad of conflicting interpretations are possible. Because of that I see it as imperative to not fixate on one view. The author of the expression you have heard I do not know. But I would attribute it to Platon. In his 'Apology of Socrates' Socrates describes how nobody has a definite justification for what they believe to know. Socrates concludes that the wisest are those that realise their own lack of true knowledge. (source: Platon: Apology of Socrates; Stephanus number [21d])

[@FlashPointHx]

'If there is anything I know for sure, is that I know very little. '

[@paullucarno2517]

Both videos on 'tolerance' are mostly about accomplishments, whether architecturally, in medicine, and others. There were many accomplishments, undoubtedly, reflecting more on the incentives to innovate rather than tolerance as we see it. Perhaps this video should be titled 'Accomplishments within Islamic Spain' instead? The leaders of that time recognized, smartly, how to bring in and compensate those who add value to their lands. Further, as newly established rulers, they had to rely on what was available, and bring in any anyone of any religion to help get this new 'upstart' going. Perhaps the initial success lead to an entrenchment of this strategy (a similar strategy endured in Baghdad for a time). But... that has nothing to do with tolerance, and more with pragmatism. Tolerance of those few at the top of society is very different than where actually life in a kingdom takes place - on the street, in the market, on the farms. Sharia of today hasn't changed with that of Islamic Spain. Non-Muslims in Spain were 'protected' in as much as they are in today's Pakistan, where a simple disagreement can devolve into death for 'blasphemy' for the Non-Muslim person. The population there lived at the whims of Muslims, and perhaps that is why many converted. In the beginning, opportunistically to scale up within the new society, but later, perhaps through pressure and to escape oppression, and death. In other words, Tolerance was observed for as long as you were useful; which is not Tolerance at all. It's just another system of subjugation. PS. Some have commented that 'tolerance' was different then than what it is understood to be today. Well, if you use the word 'tolerance' you got to use it in the way it is understood today, for back then such word was probably never uttered.

[@FlashPointHx]

You make some good points - if it was pragmatism rather than tolerance then that makes sense if you were the head of state. Would this be any different than the Roman Empire?

[@paullucarno2517]

@@FlashPointHx In a way yes (no different), but I would argue, mostly no (very different). The Roman Empire accepted different gods, and cultures all around without subjugating the different faiths (unless they rose against the Romans as the Jews of Palestine did). The Roman culture was a melting pot where the Roman citizens were supreme, and the rest were still equal 'as long as they knew their status in life'; but the Romans didn't murder non-citizens for their faith (there may have been exceptions -- I'm not talking about the oppression of Christians in the latter period, as that was more based on Christians not recognizing the Emperor as supreme, which was a threat to the rule of Roman law... a lot more to say here, but for space...); the Roman laws were pragmatic laws. This pragmatism stayed for the duration of their empire. On the other hand, in Islamic lands, the laws were made purposefully for the furtherance of their faith, and the expense of all others. In many places the other faithful (Christians, Jews) were not killed on the spot for the simple fact they added wealth to the lands. For a long time Muslims in those lands were minorities and as such they could not depopulate those lands or risk major rebellions. As the demographics shifted (through conversions, or migration) the rules turned harsher to the point where the fledgling minority faiths were eradicated. This has been seen throughout the history of Islam, from North Africa to the Middle East and Turkey. The pragmatism within Islamic lands existed only until the Islamic faith surpassed the natives ones, and therefore their usefulness was removed (not to confuse the top of society - which had more things to do with diplomacy, technological need, etc). In the thick of society, the Romans had no rules to win over other peoples in terms of business, or life in general (to my knowledge). In Islamic societies every single Muslim could bully a non-Muslim for reasons of business, marriage, and all the rest. Of course very wealthy Christians / Jews were not impacted the same - but that was because they had the bribes in the right places, nothing else. The wealthy were also the most 'mobile' of them, and as such probably the first to flee the lands if things turned sour (a disincentive for the rulers to turn against them). In Islamic lands the rulers had support for their whims with massive repercussions over masses of people (see genocides in Sudan, or Turkey for different reasons but because the law was against the subjugated peoples). The subjugated were already seen as 'less than'.

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@@paullucarno2517 In the Caliphate, if someone converted to Islam, he got the full respect. In order to convert the Non-Muslims to Islam, the Arab Imperial Government made the Jizya Law as Islam had to spread quickly throughout the world. How did Christianity expand throughout the Roman Empire? In Europe, a rule was, when a leader is becoming a Christian, all of his followers became Christians. For example, when Clovis became a Catholic, he ordered all the Franks to become Catholics and as the Franks feared the King's wrath, they chose not to disobey. In the Islamic Empire, the first four Republican Caliphs declared that there is no need of converting to Islam only because the Caliph of the Caliphate is a Muslim, instead, people can worship their religion freely in exchange of extra tax called Jizya. If this system would not have been made, there would have been majority pagans or Zoroastrians in an empire which controlled an area from France to India and China and there was a potential threat of future revolts by the majority of the population who were Non-Muslims and the downfall of the Great Islamic Empire. Now, racism remained in societies as it's a simple thing which exists till this day. Still, under the Caliph Abd Al Malik Ibn Marwan, the cities of the Islamic Caliphates had new rules. Each race of people would live in communities with the people of their own origins. Still, racism remained as the Caliph ordered all the people of the Caliphate to adopt Arabic and continuously fell victims of Arab Supremacy. When the new Abbasid Caliphate was established, they made new laws that non-Arabs and non-Muslims can also be involved in government jobs. Otherwise, during the Umayyad period, most of the non-Arabs and Non-Muslims were involved in Private jobs. The new Abbasid decree proved to be successful as racism was reduced to nothing in the Caliphate and the people of the Caliphate were united under the one banner of Islam. In Al Andalus, a word of a Muslim was given more priority than the word of a Jew, a word of a Jew was given more priority than the word of a Christian. It depended as the Christians were less interested in seeking knowledge because they thought that the Islamic knowledge would be sinful for them. However, those Non-Muslims who were smart, they studied in the Great Islamic Libraries and became people of high prestige for example Hunayn Ibn Ishaq. Overall, the tolerance in the Islamic Empires was way way higher than any other Kingdoms in the 8 centuries.

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@Scott Whatever Wow! Nice knowledge! How did you get to that, mr.? Did you search up "Violence in the Quran" in Google? Hmmm..... very wise, ai? So wise I can't even explain. Remembering of the medieval Europeans who used to say the Earth is flat. Don't tell you read the Quran. It will certainly make think of you someone even worse. A psychopath or illiterate or something. And yes, kid, giving people knowledge is like trying to cure a blind person. Let me give you a simple fact. It is worth better for you to read the explanations of each verses of the Quran. The Quran is no ordinary book. Each verses contain a meaning whether it looks good or bad on the outside. Please kid, stop playing video games and focus on your school. You have a long way to go.

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@Andrew Olson And through all these references and links to the Quran and the Hadith and the verses you are showing up in this comment section doesn't prove anything. Don't tell me you have read the whole Quran and the whole Hadith. If you say that, it will sound like the Earth is flat and I will completely dubb you as an illiterate person with mental disabilities. You literally searched up "Violent words in the Quran and the Hadith" in Google, you went to various Anti-Islamic websites and gathered these, otherwise no illiterate and evil person like you will spend so much time reading these two holy books. The verses you copied and pasted here have thousands of explanations which are recorded in Islamic scholarly sources, read them instead of being a dumbshit here. Why are all the anti-Muslims worse than just psychologically disabled? And please, you are a normal person, right? Learn how sentences are connected to each other instead of judging the Holy Book of guidance for mankind by one or two verses from your anti-Muslim typings in Google. Learn those and statements' connections then you better comment here.

[@swatisquantum]

Being a lover of learning history, great video 👍. Learned a lot and tied a few things that I didn't understand. Based on my research, when there's a system for everyone to be able to make use of resources everyone there is peace. When there's limited resources and a hungry group of outsiders that are not cared for, they revolt. A human can fall on both sides of the spectrum of good and bad. It's an individual thing. So the same goes to anyone claiming they're Muslims, there is good and bad. Each treated individually like you would in the court of law. You can't put a gang in court, but you can take individuals to court.

[@FlashPointHx]

Thats a really good point - an individual should not be judged by the actions of the radicals

[@auggied6760]

Yes, this is true, but it also proves that beneath the human persona is conflict that is just waiting to create more suffering when a person or a society is not sated.

[@ericagos1601]

This is one of the best podcasts I have heard. As others have commented, you present an accurate and unbiased history that is very entertaining. On the subject of convivencia, and cosmopolitan medieval societies: have you considered doing a series on Norman Sicily or Frederick II? Sicily had been under Muslim and Byzantine rule, sometimes at the same time. After the Normans conquered it and set up their kingdom, their court and culture became a fusion of the three. Frederick II grew up in Sicily as the son of the Sicilian Queen and the German Holy Roman Emperor. He became king and then HRE. His story is fascinating, he was known as Stupor Mundi, or wonder of the world. His court included Muslim friends and associates from his childhood. He was involved in a long standing fight with the papacy and led the Sixth Crusade, which was almost bloodless and through his diplomacy resulted in Jerusalem coming under Christian control.

[@FlashPointHx]

Sicily was a whirlwind of changes. Right now I'm covering Constantinople. Then need to get back to the end of the Reconquista

[@ericagos1601]

@@FlashPointHx Keep up the good work! When does the next episode on Constantinople come out?

[@dreamcast3607]

Could you do a special on the Balkan wars? You always hear about them at the beginning of WW1 documentaries but there's not much on them.

[@illusionist50]

Excellent videos! Very addictive!

[@FlashPointHx]

appreciate it !

[@StoicHistorian]

Great series!!!

[@goreacraft]

lovely! I do not know if it part of your interest but is it possible to show also pictures of weapons or clothes worn in the era? or add some more little details to give a more comprehensive idea of advancements in technology the had as time passed

[@FlashPointHx]

I’ll see what I can find - I have one more video on this episode before getting to the Almoravids and Taifas

[@FlashPointHx]

I'm going to take this series up to mid 16th century with the Aztec and the Inca. Then we will see.

[@walidaichi2927]

thank you for these wonderful videos .. an episode about the polymath al-biruni would be great i guess .. his book on India alone deserve more than one video ..

[@FlashPointHx]

Happy that you like the video! I have a few videos about advances in the sciences - take a look at episode VI. While I don' cover al-Biruni, I cover many like him. But I have to admit, he had an impressive mind

[@rowshonnabi5158]

Hi! Please tell me the name of the music you gave in here 10:12. Thanks, cheers ^^

[@FlashPointHx]

Its called Folk Round by Kevin MacLeod - its part of the KZbin Archive. Take Care!

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@@FlashPointHx Thanks

[@FlashPointHx]

@@rowshonnabi5158 any time - let me know if you need help in downloading it - but its pretty straightforward

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@@FlashPointHx Thanks a lot, bro :)

[@sinan1913]

Brilliant , the scholars of old would appreciate this .

[@FlashPointHx]

Thank you!

[@sinan1913]

“Humane learning leaves an aura , like a ray of bright light shining on those who come after “ - Abdul Latif Baghdad 12th century .

[@FlashPointHx]

Well said

[@sarahlyon7933]

Are those your sources listed in the desceiption? Id love to read up more on your content. Great job!

[@FlashPointHx]

Sarah - If you go to Episode 6 Part One -- here is the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJerkJmthq56hZY - (You need to go five minutes in) I've listed some decent books. If you want really in-depth (a bit stuffy) Hugh Kennedy is the professor to check out - he's written a lot on the subject. Maria Menocal is an amazing writer - I loved her "Ornament of the World". Michael Barry's " An Homage to Al Andalus" is an excellent quick overview - he's eloquent and if you're not familiar with the time period, its a decent place to start. Fernandez-Morera and his "Myth of the Andalusian Paradise" is bit one sided and the man seems like has a chip on his shoulder - I would recommend you only read this once you have read other books first. There are also a bunch of podcasts from the BBC and some fairly reasonable youtube videos. Good luck - perhaps you may be convinced to travel to Spain and check it out some of these locations.

[@batmanrobin6848]

@@FlashPointHx aren't you a bit one sided though....

[@FlashPointHx]

@@batmanrobin6848 keep going dude - I go from one prospective to the other

[@asmrnaturecat984]

I really admire your rational and objectiveness, ignore other people accusation and keep maintain your virtues If you state something good about Islam, you will be branded as Bias towards Muslim If you mention something bad about jews, you will be branded as anti-semitic More and more label will be created once they disagree with your views No need to pick sides, there are high points as well as low points in Islam, just like any other religion and civilisation

[@LS-xs7sg]

It is strange that a video claiming to discuss the state of tolerance in Muslim Spain failed to mention the massacres, assassinations and discriminatory taxation of non-Muslims. Also, when comparing the medieval Christian and Muslim context it is worth remembering that the Muslims were ruling over a conquered people who they were taxing and they had inherited the richest half of the Roman Empire with all the intellectual traditions that brought with it.

[@supernivemdealbabor]

There were impressive stone bridges! That one is a Roman bridge.

[@truth-be-told]

The Jews prospered during Islamic rule but what a shame it cannot be said the same with muslim under Jews🤔 The first French pope learned and inspired by Islamic world..

[@lianagheorma92]

15:25 huh in Romanian, we call paper hârtie. I wonder if it is related to Xativa (since it's pronounced with a H sound).

[@ziyadpepe6291]

I'm crying😭😭😭, the details in this video....that the 6th episode I watch, thank you thank you friend🙏🙏🙏 I like the fact that within the Islamic world, that all historians agrees on that the Islamic golden age was not an Arabic in total, but happened when the Muslims allowed everybody to meets everybody. At some point in 8th century the Abasid caliphe Al-Mamoun said : for anyone who will translate a book from any language to the Arabic he will get the weighs of that Book in Gold. Back then The middle eastern in general were in love with knowledge. Thank again..i just feel so warm when someone learn and know about our history..thank you again friend🙏🙏..forgive my bad English if its there any spelling mistakes.

[@FlashPointHx]

We are all greater than the sum of our parts. Coexistence is powerful. Happy again that you like my content. Your English is fine :)

[@yorksfolly1255]

ok last one i promise. *izya has also been understood by some as a ritual humiliation of the non-Muslims in a Muslim state for not converting to Islam,[33][34] while others argue that if it were meant to be a punishment for the dhimmis' unbelief then monks and the clergy wouldn't have been exempted.[35]*

[@absoleet]

Jizya is only one of the discriminatory laws that non-Muslims were put under, not the only one. And today many Muslims want to implement shariah law and add a jizya tax on non-Muslims.

[@ibrahimxbashir]

That perspective mainly comes from ignorance of Islam. Jizya is quite the opposite of that. Muslims are required to pay a specific tax called Zakat which is approx 2.5% of someone's income. The Jizya was made as a tax for non-Muslims because they didn't want to impose Muslim beliefs and regulations such as the Zakat on to them. So the Jizya was made as a fixed tax (not percentage) depending on your class as a state tax for state protection as all occupants must pay taxes.

[@franciscomm7675]

@@ibrahimxbashir Well said

[@zakback9937]

You guys literally ignore that non Muslims don’t get conscripted into the army and that it’s only fighting aged men who pay for it, children, women, sick and elderly are free from this. Along with the fact that once you pay this tax, you will be protected by the state.

[@zardassouki1812]

Actually, Muslims have to pay less Tax, but they also pay Alms daily and Zakat annually, at the end of the day all faiths end up paying the same amounts.

[@zardassouki1812]

​@UCTYmTYuan0fSGccYXBxc8cA In this video at 9:20 its showing Abd Al Rahman III standing next to a globe model? is that correct? I wonder if Christopher Columbus studied at the Islamic Cordoba University!.

[@XxLIVRAxX]

There was no Islamic Cordoba by the times of Columbus.

[@zardassouki1812]

@@XxLIVRAxX you are correct, one can get lost within 800 years of islamic spain history.

[@holstorrsceadus1990]

In 1000 AD Kaifeng, China had about 1 million people living in the city and over 1.9 million in the metro area according to the census taken in that period. Luoyang probably had nearly as many people.

[@shahmohammad1844]

great video

[@FlashPointHx]

Thanks!

[@bohemianwriter1]

You have any comment on today's book burnings in the American bible belt?

[@eliasfrahat7074]

Thank you for the video but I have a request how western Rome fall

[@FlashPointHx]

I have a three part series on Attila the Hun - its audio only - but you can download it from iTunes or from my website - see the description of the video for the link

[@trwsandford]

It was fat and lazy, and spent itself silly. Debased its currency, imported people to do the work romans wouldn't do. was constantly embroiled in foreign wars. kinda rhymes with the United States of today, or Europe for that matter.

[@12vscience]

Here are a couple of presentations on the fall of Rome. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5mao5d5jqiElbc kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWHdkpaXfsalmpI

[@Syllaeus]

@@trwsandford Your missing the biggest most important factor. The Germanic conquests 😂

[@trwsandford]

@@Syllaeus nope, didn't miss those at all. thank you for giving me a chance to reread something I wrote two years ago!

[@animatedislamichistory]

I appreciate the neutral perspective. Al andaloud was certainly not all rainbow, but, it was certainly a huge step up in terms of interfaith tolerance in a time where christians would burn heretics alive. Context is really important, which some modernists fail to understand.

[@FlashPointHx]

I read for three months prior to making this video - wanted to have as neutral a prospective as possible. After three months of research I realized just how much Bias there is out there - even in books that are acclaimed as being very academic

[@CuckHunt]

Done lying vermin?

[@elwerouno1]

👑RÍOS FAMILY 👑 it refers to the ROYAL HOUSE OF ASTURIAS where the RÍOS👑 last name most likely originated from.👑

[@yorksfolly1255]

Per wikipedia (not as reliable but still ) *jizya rate was usually a fixed annual amount depending on the financial capability of the payer.Historically, the jizya tax has been understood in Islam as a fee for protection provided by the Muslim ruler to non-Muslims, for the exemption from military service for non-Muslims, for the permission to practice a non-Muslim faith with some communal autonomy*

[@FlashPointHx]

Which makes sense - but what society doesn’t pay for its protection? However, some historians I’ve read point out how this was an oppressive action - equivalent to racketeering by gangsters. As for allowing a race to practice via payment - perhaps not the most enlightened practice but a peaceful alternative IMHO

[@yorksfolly1255]

i could see that opinion, but what need to to be understood is the main objective is to give an incentive to convert. What need to be understood is that the muslims are coming from a paradigm where hey bevlive Islam is the truth, so incentives without force are important because it says in the quran there is no compulsion in religion.

[@FlashPointHx]

True - which accounts for the large number of converts - I read that by the 11th cen, Al Andalus was 80% Muslim

[@yorksfolly1255]

So they really didnt get as much money from jizyah as people think. I remember hearing someone talk about the abbasids or ummayads that made it difficult to convert for the sole fact that they wanted more tax income since so many converted, but i dont know if thats true

[@kdksinghsingh8375]

Make about emirate of crete also

[@SamuelHallEngland]

Ah Khwarazmian, that familiar name!

[@FlashPointHx]

For us all. ;)

[@Karayudo]

First of all congratulations for your channel and the quality of your work. I personnaly strongly believe that Al-Andalus history's as we know is somehow biaised. In comparaison with roman ocupation (who lasted 6-4 centuries, depending on how u see it) Islamic period was significantly less peacefull. It can be explained by religious differences but not only. We have these strong images in mind when we think about Al-Andalus. Wealth, medecine, Culture, knowledge (translations), technical innovations. Even if they're undeniable we simply cant say that "indigenous" Spaniards enjoyed most of them or were part of them. It was mostly mae at their expenses. Most of Al-Andalus economy and wealth was based on razzias and overtaxation. A proof of it would be the fisrt Fitna (huge crisis) that was caused by Al Hakam (famous for the Martyrs of Cordoba "episode) where he made a martyr out of 48 christians by burning them or empaling them) very violent conversion policies.The tolerence here would only apply to wealthiest classes who could actually afford to pay them. The forced mass conversion to islam ended with the obligation to pay the "tolerance" tax as they were'nt christians anymore and heavilly crippeled the economy who relied way too much on it. About the scientific, medical and hygienic progresses, i think we owe them way more to Byzantines (most underrated civ ever ahaha) than Umayyades. By conquering byzantine land during their big phase of expansion they acquired their medical knowledge, love for baths, scientific and philosophical knowledge and even the "Suq" oriented organization of their cities ( archaeological evidences found in Jerash or Palmyra for example really tend to confirm this statement). And like 90% of translations ( philosophical, medical, whatever) were my by christian Syriac elites. You cant really say their cultural and technical hegemony was theirs and due to their good gestion and openmind. One cant just pretend that some random desert dudes military federated over a god become one of the most advanced civilization in less than 100 years without copying another one. It's nonsense. Adding to this, the pillaging, state of constant war, huge impermeability (religiously understandable) of power classes, Slavery ( and i'm not talking about the 100 maidens myth or this kind of propaganda, i'm talking about litteral slavery which was often accompanied with male castration (specially for subsaharian slaves tho). And let's not forget about the jews. Jewish people in christian Spain represented the "usurers class" cause they were the only ones that were religiously allowed to handle money. It gave them a hideous reputation in christian Spain which led to an awfully unfair and cruel treatment. So of course they welcomed Moors, and benefitted more from their domination cause they knew they would only have to pay a tax to avoid being chased. Later on it will cause their mass expulsion ( even if Spain has been the last west european country to do it ) because of the vengeful feeling it had inspired. Joseph Perez is a french author that i would recommend to anyone wanting to know more about jewish real influence/history in Spain, and the creation of a pan-european anti-spain climate). To conclude i'd would simply say yes, it was a period of Wealth, culture and advancement as long as you were muslim. Saying convivencia was awesome would be almost like saying Congo's colonisation was great because they build roads an railroads (i'm heavilly exaggerating but you get the point). Although i really like your videos, this one included. i dont want this comment to seem insulting or critic, i'm only adding some thoughts to it and i mean by no way to demean Moorish very rich history and legacy!They sure did bring a lot of positives things aswell such as byzantine knowledge or modern irrigation systems ( who were unfortunately later abandonned) and i think you make a great job sorting true/false things in this mess of a history and make it something fair to each "side". But as a Belgian graduate in Hispanism i really feel like spanish history needs to be cleaned of their myths, whether they are positive or negative. Greetings!

[@FlashPointHx]

Thank you so much for your incredibly insightful comments. It’s obvious that you have had a lot of insight, reading, and research on this time period. It was very difficult to create this episode. You are absolutely correct. The opinions of what happened during this time very greatly. It was very hard to determine what actually happened. I think it was a time of great learning, advancement in the arts and sciences, and compared to other parts of Europe it was a place where the three religions were able to cohabit. When times were good, everyone got along. When times were not however, then there would be Rioting, persecutions, uprisings, revolt, and executions. However, I believe that is the nature of civilization in general. I wish you the best of luck with your continued studies in this time. And I agree with you, the mess needs to be routed out for the truth. By the way, I have always wanted to visit your country. Would be interesting to see the path that the allies took during operation market Garden.

[@Karayudo]

Flash Point History thank you for your response, it kinda gets rare to exchange ideas peacefully and constructively these days on KZbin. I really hope you’ll be able to visit my beautiful country after this crisis! Wish u the best!

[@FlashPointHx]

@@Karayudo This channel has a lot of people that are passionate about history. I try to cultivate a community where people can voice their opinions. I would love to see Einhoven, Nijmegen, and Arnhem - thats the path that the allies took. Think those cities look amazing - at least on google earth

[@skpjoecoursegold366]

well done.

[@FlashPointHx]

Thanks!

[@yorksfolly1255]

a few facts i wanna make note of when it comes to the Jizyah tax. U didnt have to join Muslim armies and women didn't pay it Edit: Jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية‎ ǧizya IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: جزيه‎ cizye) is a per capita yearly tax historically levied[1] by Islamic states on certain non-Muslim subjects-dhimmis-permanently residing in Muslim lands under Islamic law.[2][3][4] Muslim jurists required adult, free, sane males among the dhimma community to pay the jizya,[5] while exempting women, children, elders, handicapped, the ill, the insane, monks, hermits, slaves,[6][7][8][9][10] and musta'mins-non-Muslim foreigners who only temporarily reside in Muslim lands.[6][11] Dhimmis who chose to join military service were exempted from payment,[2][7][12][13][14] as were those who could not afford to pay.[7][15][16]

[@FlashPointHx]

Good to know

[@ic6177]

Jizya was also given back entirely to non-Muslims at the moment Muslims lost ground or knew they couldn't protect them, according shiekh Moujahid. Pretty amazing.

[@yorksfolly1255]

yeah I have heard that too, but have not looked into it to see how reliable it is, but its possible.

[@ozymandias-saidcomorian3871]

I think there's a history about this when they first took Egypt and had to abandon it again in the early expansion. I'll admit I don't know much more, but someone with more training in history can look it up. All I remember hearing was that when they knew they couldn't hold the town against the roman emperors' (Byzantine) advancing army they gave back the Jizya to the Christian populace.

[@SirHappyThe1st]

The problem is not so much the Jiyza as the Dhmmi status of non muslims.

[@alfredosenalle9284]

Christian and Jews living under Muslim rule in Al aldalus , or Muslim Spain had the status of "Dhimmis". This word meant second or third class citizen , these Christian and Jews had to pay a tax for what it was called "Protection". Amongst the many inequalities , if a Muslim male raped a free Christian or Jew woman , he was flogged. Under that same law if a Christian or Jew male raped a free Muslim woman , he would be killed. A Christian or Jew was allowed to convert to Islam , however a Muslim was forbidden to convert to any other religion.

[@ahzam2862]

being an indian muslim of arab descent, i never felt so embarrassed from sucking at maths.

[@saguntum-iberian-greekkons7014]

So you are basically saying it was all a wonderful paradise, right? That everything went down after the Reconquista, right? Haha. funny, how you don't mention the italian republic cities, mostly Venice and Genoa which were doing great and making lot of commerce, il let you know that "Bank" comes from Italian "Banquere" the seat where the merchant sited all day doing TRADING. I guess you didn't mention it . Im very disapointed, i thought you were unbiased, you are not a reliable source. Btw the numbers we use today are "Hindu numbers" not "hindu-arabic" there was no official bicreation nobel prize when the hindus made it. Why you don't say "sino-arabic paper" lmao. Most of the scientist fields were coming from the Byzantine and Persian fields, it was only imported! Any society could had done it, i wouldn't be surprised if the Visigoths did it if they survived. I really doubt it was all pinky as you described it, what about the average citizens? Were they having a good time? NO! Were the non-muslims enjoying a good life? Probably not either. Was there discrimination? Absolutely! Did you mentioned it? NO, wonder why You failed to mention that the "wonderful economy" was based on the jizya and went it all down during the locals converting to islam to avoid paying this tax, also heavily relied on slavery. If I could make a comparison to a modern equivalent, lets say that South Africa was good... to the invaders not the locals. Jizya=Apartheid The people who watched about this video are now dumber, for having listening it, you promoting the same myths as the others that cover the same subject

[@Holybatman3603]

A Christian in Muslim Spain had a better life than a black man under Apartheid through, you shouldn't really compare the two.

[@jojolafrite9265]

​​@@Holybatman3603a regarder au Pakistan. Il y a deux million de Chrétiens Autochtone qui sont traité comme des chiens leurs voisins musulmans leurs font voir de toutes les couleurs ils sont descriminé torturé pour un oui ou non , humiliée même tué alors Tes mensonges garde les pour toi va raconté ta TAQYYA ailleurs Menteur 🤮

[@Notreallyhereanymore]

@@jojolafrite9265you obviously don’t k ow anything so there’s no point educating you

[@jojolafrite9265]

La seul chose que je sait cet que les commentaires musulmans sont plein de mensonges avec une bonne dose d'hypocrisie. Comme l'histoire du paradis perdu Al andalus . Sacré pays qui pendant son existence de 525 annes ont toujours été en guerre contre les vrais propriétaires de l'Hispania Chrétienne, et 260 année plus tard tombe Grenade . Et l'Espagne était a nouveau maître de ces terres Pour les Chrétiens Hispanic c'était pas le paradis pendant l'occupation musulmans ils étaient traité pire que les deux million de Pakistanais chrétiens qui sont traités comme des chiens Aujourd'hui. Et pour mon éducation elle est Européenne et Chrétienne qui m'empêche pas d'être mon propre arbitre de dire ce que je pense sans hypocrisie , et ton éducation elle vaut rien en Europe met là a la poubelle cet dépassé l'âge de pierre

[@jdlc903]

13:39 thats got to be bullshit.europe was building amazing cathedrals at this time

[@husseinalsharaa202]

Stfu

[@jdlc903]

@@husseinalsharaa202 you stfu

[@michaelahern6821]

Adds everywhere I'm afraid...

[@matthewperry5121]

This is rich in info

[@haugs1718]

So now forks are a unit of measurement of the level civilisation? Stop making me laugh please.

[@TM-fu2we]

He lost me at that very comment because it belied his position - one of untruth (not whether they used forks or not but suggesting they were undeveloped) and dislike of a people/religion. Nothing less than a petty putdown. Shame.

[@abdever2140]

Reality

[@CuckHunt]

In alternate universe

[@omarsohal926]

We Muslims deserve the shame we carry today it was us who sought the destruction of our civilization by not preserving it and not honoring our grandfathers who worked tirelessly to create it

[@goreacraft]

same for Christians, Mayans, Egypt and any other civilization that once was in a "golden age"

[@FlashPointHx]

What an incredible statement, thank you for sharing this comment. Vigilance has always been the price of civilization. It’s an impressive talent to be able to look back and see the mistakes of the past and learn from them. All the best to you!

[@omarsohal926]

Flash Point History thanks man hopefully one day the Muslim community return to it's intended purpose that is to worship god and build this earth as our prophet told us peace be upon him Islam meant to benefit humanity not be a burden on it

[@ozymandias-saidcomorian3871]

I think Umar ibn Khattab the second Caliph or Umar ibn Abdulaziz the sixth, once said something to the tune of; the descent will come at a time of Muslim children born into Islam and knew nothing of the Ignorance (Jahiliyyah) time.

[@Fakeslimshady]

wait till you see how modern Christians hate themselves and their forefathers

[@briansmith9439]

Relatively well put together considering the limited education - making the statement that in addition to the knowledge possessed, additional sources, to wit "3 additional books read over a month," supplemented what knowledge the presenter already had. Considering there are thousands of sources, 3 is a rather meager supplementation. Without knowing the quality of those 3 books, it is difficult to place much faith in the breadth of knowledge required to make a thoughtful, balanced, thorough, and valid documentary. Accomplished experts study and research for a dozen years before they are competent in the field to publish respected research in peer-reviewed journals. The lack of comparisons is problematic as when, for instance, recounting the additional tax burdens for non-Muslims in the caliphate. Without a comparison to what was the policy in the non-Muslim world toward Islamic adherents, it is impossible to assess whether the situation was objectively better or worse.

[@FlashPointHx]

Well happy that you liked some of it despite the lack of eduction. Only so much time to create a podcast.

[@wilhelmhesse1348]

This is history which in most of the Western world has not been taught in schools and Colleges. More of this must be shared to the world. I think modern Western Civilization has deliberately choosen to not highlight this important period of history and often jump to the Hellenistic and classic Roman periods as being the main contributors to the current and dominant Western civilization on science, mathematics, philosophy and the arts as we know it. Thanks Flashpoint history for your podcasts/ videos and your amazing meticulous and detailed hard work.

[@FlashPointHx]

Thank you for writing this! I totally agree. The Islamic word contributes greatly to the renaissance and enlightenment that was to shift the though process of the modern world

[@wilhelmhesse1348]

@@FlashPointHx Your most welcome Sir. What also got me interested in this period is a book I read when I was a teenager called "An Odor of Sanctity" by an American writer by the name of Frank Yerby. Yerby migrated to Spain in the 50s and wrote one of best books I've ever read. The book got into the everyday life, violence, politics, race relations and scandals of the Al-Andalus elite and peasants alike at the onset of the reconquista, for it's time it also posed a number of interesting politically incorrect or correct questions on perceptions regarding morality, sexuality, civilization, religion and race. Once I'm able to I will be making a contribution to your Patreon.

[@FlashPointHx]

@@wilhelmhesse1348 I was never much into this time period myself - once I started reading about it, I was completely fascinated. I took up this project as it was well out of my usual comfort zone of history reading - I'm happy I did. Thanks for any contribution you make!

[@danielandres1579]

Nah the things and institution primarily responsible for building the Western Civilization is the Roman Catholic Church.

[@abdulrehman-md1nx]

@@danielandres1579 church which used to kill scientists blaming them of witch craft

[@martinlisitsata]

You said you will talk about tolerant islamic spain and you switch the subject to math. That is not a good sign!

[@Notreallyhereanymore]

So?

[@nyteskun]

i just listened to one of the scholars that claimed one of the reason why Church burned/kill people who embrace the knowledge of science back then because of those knowledge were considered as sorcery or islamic knowledge. But listening to this which even high ranked christian got burned to death because of knowledge which can be considered as derived from the islamic community at that period. Kind of confirmed it.

[@paulcock8929]

The muslims didn't use forks neither.

[@amjadatrash6223]

Ziryab from Baghdad introduced forks in Andalusia, from there it spread to the rest of Europe.

[@paulcock8929]

@@amjadatrash6223 the prophet, who is your perfect example, ate with three fingers of his right hand, and your kind have to follow him, and act like him, our your allah will be angry. .

[@skt0456]

@@paulcock8929 what strange take that is it's like saying Christians should not also eat using spoons because jesus did not use it

[@thefalcon7021]

@@paulcock8929 but didn't your god eat with his hands to and used the toilet (maybe not toilet More like behind a tree or something

[@paulcock8929]

@@thefalcon7021 If you are a Muslim, then you have to believe that we have the same God as the Christians. So that makes your remarks blasphemous. lol.

[@matthewmann8969]

It was more tolerant to other Abrahamic Religions but even then there were restrictions and codes and codexes, And rules

[@jessicasfakeaccount]

so, _here's_ some critical thinking. nice to hear... my take on this is that it is somewhere between a myth & an exaggeration - more than exaggeration, but not quite ungrounded enough to be myth. the problem is less about when people point to spain as a somewhat more literate society than existed around them, and more about when they try to give them credit for it, as the latter is mostly unjustified. the video at least points out the importance of the byzantine influence, which is the missing ingredient in many of the narratives, which may credit the jews somewhat, but go something along the lines of "advanced arabs conquer primitive savages and protect spain from dark age, thereby creating renaissance". _that_ sort of thinking is largely myth, but it's caricatured for a reason - you only _really_ hear it from religious clerics and arab nationalists, whose voices are amplified by the contemporary culture, which trains us to defer to them rather than challenge then. as mentioned previously, spain was a developed part of the empire, so anybody that took it over by force was given a pretty good head start in terms of building something new. it's consequently rather disingenuous to try to compare spain to france or britain, which spent the roman occupation period trying to overthrow imperialist rule. rather, you want to compare spain to other parts of the ancient world - italy, greece, egypt, the levant. and, how does spain fare when compared against it's contemporaries in alexandaria, or baghdad, or constantinople? not terribly, but not spectacularly. in _that_ context, spain becomes it's name in arabic - the ass end of the earth. somewhat of a backwater, really... i mean, one of the stories he mentions here is that the byzantines had to send monks to teach them to read greek - which is exactly the same problem that happened in italy, and exactly the thing that needed to be reversed to bring on the renaissance. inventions like paper (which came from china) and base-10 numerals (which are indian in origin) may have come to europe through spain, but they may just as well have come through constantinople or even across the steppes. that spain was at the end of the trade routes shouldn't assign them any special status. and, al-khwarizmi was a persian in baghdad who was mostly reinterpreting existing greek science, rather than coming up with anything of his own - although he is one of a small number of persian and kurdish mathematicians that can be credited with original ideas (most of them, in truth, can actually not be - they were translators, rather than innovators). on that note, it's worth pointing out why all these greek texts ended up in arabic in the first place. when the muslims took over, they inherited a greek world - and inherit, they did. the arabs got all of the big libraries of the ancient world almost instantly, and nearly by chance. _everything_ was written in greek. they seemed to realize that they'd just get conquered by the culture in the end, if they didn't uproot it. on top of that, they found a lot of disagreements in the existing greek literature, in terms of how it related to their new religion. they wanted a book burning, but they wanted to keep the good stuff, too. so, what they actually did - and they _did_ do this, as crazy as it sounds - is go through these huge libraries book-by-book and either burn the parts they didn't like or translate the parts they liked to arabic. once the texts by the authors they liked - which included aristotle, quite predominantly - were translated, the original greek was then burned. so, we give the muslims credit for _saving_ the books? no, they burnt the damned books! and, what was left had to be translated back from arabic, _because_ they burned all the greek. so, it's within that context that you have greek monks being sent to spain to teach the people there greek, after the culture had done everything they could to destroy it. did you think they just forgot because they were barbarians? no - the arabs burnt all the greek books, except the ones in the empire; there was no longer any utility in learning greek, unless you lived in greece. oops. the fact that he has to bring in persian mathematicians and inventions from china and india, rather than point to the original work of intellectuals in islamic spain itself, should amplify the point - spain may have been doing fairly well when compared to the undeveloped areas outside of the empire, but it was actually largely a laggard within the remnants of the empire itself. he hasn't brought up the renaissance myth yet...so i'll beat him to it... while spain may have held some books, the event that really set off the renaissance was actually back-migration from constantinople to italy, which set in after 1204. the city was toast well before 1452, and people started leaving it, as refugees, in streams. some went north to russia, others in fact went to spain and the bulk of them went back to rome - because they were romans, in identity. they brought the more advanced culture of the late empire back to italy with them, and it mostly went from there. to the extent that anything found itself back to italy via spain in the arabic language, it would have been supplementary - and i don't want to downplay it, because that means it was probably the last chance to save it. but, it was the last chance, and not the driving influence. and, who created the problem in the first place? what the arabs _did_ leave spain was the culture of barbarism that developed in the region during and after the reconquista. the exaggerated almost-myth of islamic tolerance is really a reaction to the inquisition; it's a compare and contrast essay, but it misses the point - it was the arabs that laid the basis for the inquisition in their caste system of religious hierarchy, their extortion schemes and their punitive taxation. they seemed to have a thing for crucifying christians, they seemed to like the irony. worse, the extortion scheme is not "like organized crime"; this is the actual, historical origin of organized crime! it is the muslims that built the slave trade in africa that the spaniards would inherit and use to export africans to america - and they did it not based on the colour of their skin, but on the content of their religious observation. none of this would have happened if not for the arab presence, and their insistence on treating people differently based on their faith. but, did some last gasp of empire, however perverted, hold out in the south of spain, no doubt in hopes of an eventual reunification with the fatherland? sure. for a while. just don't give it more credit than it earned - ground the analysis in actual fact, and realize that the similarities between spain and the rest of europe are pretty powerful as well, and that, while the peninsula may have experienced a less brutal dark age, it didn't escape it altogether. islamic spain was also a dark age society and should ultimately be treated like one. so, this is better, but it's like he had a eureka moment when it clicked in that wait-a-minute, this is all bullshit. and, i wonder if he regrets publishing the first part of the series, if my analysis actually hits harder than i realized....

[@jessicasfakeaccount]

if you look at central germany or the areas up along the russian rivers like the dnieper and don in the year 300 and compare it the year 1300, they made major progress. kiev hit it's high point in that period; berlin wasn't founded until around the year 1300. the same is true in france and england, even if the difference is a little less. but, that was not true in spain, which at best underwent stagnation through the period. it's not true in the arab heartland, either, which limps to the mongol destruction event having barely managed to convert all of the greek literature to arabic, while adding little to nothing of it's own. it's important to compare apples to apples, here - and not confuse stagnation from a very high point of civilization as a superior level of development over rapid generation from a point of almost nothingness. a good way to understand this is to look at china vs the united states, today. yes, america is still ahead by a good horse-length. but, look at the progress made in china.... in absolute terms, what comes out of northern europe in this period is admittedly pretty weak, but it's also leaps and bounds over what existed there a millennia previously. and, that rapid growth would continue throughout the dark ages, as the south continued to stagnate and decline - until it was eclipsed altogether. so, who writes these histories that frame the narrative in this arab-good, german-bad sort of way? the answer is musiims. and, that's what you get for letting people tell their own history, rather than allowing scholarship to take over. let's hope he learned his lesson and things are better from here.

[@jessicasfakeaccount]

if you want objectivity and facts, then asking a culture to narrate it's own past is the _worst_ way to arrive at the truth.

[@TheSunderingSea]

@@jessicasfakeaccount It's worth noting that what little exists of this "tolerance" i.e not outright massacring the Christian population is pragmatism, pure and simple. Unlike in Europe where Pagan beliefs died a quick death when it came into contact with the Christian world, the Arab conquerors of the Roman and Persian world ruled a vast area with very large populations of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and smaller groups such as Manichaeans , i.e religions that like Islam had organization, doctrines and their own very strongly held views on God. Thus this minority ruling class HAD to tolerate the existence of these peoples, even if they clearly hated them. One only needs to read about the Martyrs of Cordoba, Christians not being allowed to display any religious icons or to proclaim their Christian faith to a Muslim, or how MUSLIM sources describe how the "Dhimmi" is to humiliate himself when presenting tribute the local official (the Jizya) "The Dhimmi, standing is to present the money to the Muslim collector, who would be sitting higher up from a sort of throne. This Muslim bureaucrat would hold the Dhimmi by the throat, telling him "Oh Dhimmi, enemy of Allah! Pay the Jizya that you owe us, for the protection and tolerance we grant you!" The other Muslims present would imitate the collector, gathering around the Dhimmi and any other Dhimmi's who accompany him. To this amusing spectacle any Muslim should be admitted who wished to witness it"

[@TheSunderingSea]

Furthermore, we don't have examples of European "Tolerance" at face value because compared to the near east, Europe was especially by 1000 AD a very religiously cohesive area, the only significant non-Christian group to most places being the Jewish populations of an area, and they of course were subject to a similar if not equal level of "tolerance" from Christians. So the same people who will constantly mention the pograms against Jews in Europe during the Middle Ages will then turn around and shill for Al Andalusian "tolerance" which is equal to Christendom's treatment of Jews. It is however worth noting that when Western Europeans did end up in the Holy Land during the Crusading period, there was a equal if not greater degree of tolerance for Muslims within the Crusader states, to the point where gravesites of crusaders from the 1180's found high admixture of Middle Eastern DNA, suggesting many settlers from the First Crusade era had taken Arab (though certainly Christian or at least Convert) spouses.

[@jessicasfakeaccount]

@@TheSunderingSea i just want to clarify that i'm not interested in offering a defence of christianity. if it must be stated, my ideological preferences, allegiances and biases would be towards european paganism, and i would reject the premise of a "christian europe" as a type of historical revisionism. europe has spent the entire historical period resisting colonization from christianity, and when it finally won, when the christians finally disappeared, the muslims just appeared in their place. i see little difference between islam and christianity, and would consider them equally intellectually bankrupt and equally morally depraved, as systems of thought. so, if you are interpreting my criticism of islam from a christian perspective, that would be a false inference, and one i would insist to immediately stop.

[@taqieldin5767]

First of all jizyah is a kind of tax to non muslims and to muslims there's a tax called zakah so all the people had to pay tax no matter which religion they're practice in Al-Andalus jews,christians and muslims lived peacfully they were Jewish temples and Christians churches and they were able to practice there religion freely unlike whole Europe back then and you can see what happened to Muslims and Jews after the reconquista and how they endured torture and forced conversion and then departure

[@FlashPointHx]

The part about the tax is correct and I've mentioned this. As for practicing 'freely' - this isn't correct. The could practice, but there were restrictions. And as far as post reconquista intolerance - thats definitely correct

[@taqieldin5767]

@@FlashPointHx it depends on who's rulling as for the taifa periods yes. But man you deserve more credit i've watched kings and generals,Extra History, HistoryMarche and Epic History and you're one of the best , great astonishing voice and you're very informative and not talking about tactics and strategies only but you talk about culture and innovations also so thats a good thing ,and you're non biased i wish your channel grows rapidly ,wish you all the best.

[@FlashPointHx]

@@taqieldin5767 Thank you so much for this . hoping the channel jumps as well.

[@TM-fu2we]

@@FlashPointHx “...follow the person who seeks the truth, but always question those who say they know the truth". "...post reconquista intolerance - that's definitely correct". To point out your contradiction, as a seeker of truth of history you can never be 'definitely correct'. A nuanced perspective (as you claim to have) you can find in this 1994 BBC video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYqQoYZsnrF5q8U. Even with quality work such as this having been out for years, the myths surrounding the 'reconquista' (which you will see, if you care to watch, has roots in English/Spanish political rivalry) continue. I've always loved the history of Islamic Spain (although from the fantastical sort of 'Arabian Knights' perspective) and there's nothing I adore more culturally than its mezquitas. However, to perpetuate the idea of the cruel Christian and/or Spaniard (far worse than anyone else) when viewed through more informed, honest, unbiased, and intelligent discourse, can be seen as distorted and exaggerated (to say the least). Frankly, not only is it unfair to the Spanish people of today, its also offensive. Show less

[@FlashPointHx]

I think with series like this, no matter what I produce, someone will get offended. It’s usually those who already have their opinions cemented in their minds.

[@pepenp]

I still believe these videos are still a bit biased towards Islamic Spain. Abrahamic religions were generally not very tolerant compared to other religions. For practical reasons the Islamic system tolerated dhimmis due to the necessity as Muslim rulers were small minority in the conquered societies as the spread of Islam had different origins than the spread of Christianity. The same was true was for the Mongols and for the Romans (pre - Christian). Mughal conquest is also an example of this. Surely the achievements were there - the Caliphate connected already very developed regions of the Roman Empire, Persia and beyond which made the spread of inventions and ideas much easier. In conclusion the Caliphate at the time tolerated Jews and Christian more than the Christian counterparts id Muslims and Jews, but certainly was not at update to the classical Roman times in this regards. The Sharia based society was in many senses ore rigid and unfair. Lastly the Muslims were likley seen as conquerors and thus their later expulsions is not very comparable to the relation of the conquerors wit the existing population.

[@FlashPointHx]

I feel ya on this one - the story I tell comes from the Islamic side. That is why by episode 9 & 10 I switch and tell it from the Christian side. Take a listen and tell me what you think.

[@pepenp]

@@FlashPointHx I will get there. After this i started at the very beginning - so far first two episodes and it is likely the similar case :-) After thinking about it more - i think it is generally wrong to compare the Islamic Spain to the Catholic Spain as the narrative of the Reconquista would be to fight invaders and thus not much tolerance was to be expected (more a point to the general comments in the comment section). The torelance of the Muslims in the crusader states would be better example.

[@FlashPointHx]

@@pepenp even after the reconquista was in fully swing there would be good examples of tolerance. Alphonso VI not destroying the accumulated knowledge of Toledo. Alphonso X using almohad ideals. Pedro the Cruel getting Nasrid help to build the Alcazar in Seville (where they filmed GOT). Again, let me know what you think at the transition point of EP IX.

[@amrshatlaa9617]

@@pepenp i feel you're the one who's biased . you don't put things in perspective of that era 1- you say sharia dimmi law is tolerant because Muslim rulers were small minority in the conquered societies , but when crusaders came to the middle east they didn't care about the majority and massacred all Muslims AND Jews in Jerusalem , also jews were a persecuted minority literary in every country on the planet (even Jerusalem) which means they didn't pose any threat to Muslim rulers and muhammed didn't need to include them to the dimmi society if what you say was true . The truth is ibrahamic religions' tolerance was due to Muslim belief that Jesus and Moses are prophets of Allah and their religions were intended to be identical to Islam . 2- you say "Muslims were likely seen as conquerors and thus their later expulsions is not very comparable to the relation of the conquerors" now tell that to Saladin who witnessed first hand what the crusaders did in Jerusalem and still during the "expulsion of conquerors" from Jerusalem he spared it's dimmi population and even some of it's armed christian protectors . So dealing with a "conqueror" is no excuse to ban a religion , force conversions , imprison a minority , and torture Muslim civilians under your rule the way "Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros " did until no Muslim remained in Granada . and don't even get me started on the Romans and Byzantines and what they did to Nontrinitarian Christians , and jews .

[@pepenp]

@@amrshatlaa9617 1. In Jersualem sure. Massacres during the sack of cities were common (basically everywehere). Muslims were nearly a half of the population of the crusader states. This was again tolerace for practical reasons. 2. It is not agood comparison for your case. During the expusion of moriscos they could take what they could carry or even be able to sell the properties. This was certaintly a better fate that the fate of the defeated crusaders in the ME.

[@andrius505]

Funny funny.. How can you tell if there was tolerance in islamic Spain... If history is written by victorious?

[@FlashPointHx]

There is a lot to be said by the fact that by 1492 the Christians were dominant. Yet despite their take over, the stories of cooperation and tolerance still exist.

[@davidregi7571]

@@FlashPointHx after Christians gained control ,thry three all muslim out. Surely they were pissed at muslims? Also the rate at which the population of spain convert to Islam ,i read at one point was 80%. Did they do this through non violence?

[@pyrrhus3445]

Al andalouse was a great civilization to all the world to the humanity not just for the arabs and Muslims thank u for that amazing series god bless you

[@FlashPointHx]

Entirely my pleasure - I read somewhere that 'truth is like a multifaceted diamond' - there are many faces but only so many sides can be clearly seen at once. I'm really happy you like the series!

[@MoroccoGamer]

I think jizya at that time was better than everything that was in other kingdoms i hope you talk about all the killings of civilians and torture chambers that was made by christians when they took control and they made everyone run for their lifes and run to north africa im still watching the episodes hh i will catch up soon keep the good work

[@nicholasturner1439]

You really think torture/oppression did not take place under Islamic rule? If so you are either delusional or stupid.

[@CuckHunt]

Done lying?

[@charliebrown5755]

Flash Point History is a Muslim site.

[@PMMagro]

Tolerance in Muslim, medival, Spain shoudl be compared to medival France/Burgundy etc. And easiest off all- compare it with Christian Spain at that time. Obvioulsy the muskims in Spain where a lot more toleratnt than Spain 1492 and the Christian France/Burgundy ... But I do not understand what rekevance this has today. "Christains used to be very intollerant so now we should be that!" ?

[@FlashPointHx]

The ideas and concepts that were determined, the poetry that was generated, and the idea that these religions could coexist set examples and precedences. I feel like I’m selling Menochal book, but in the Ornament of the World she gives an example of how an event that started in Spain affected the lives of Jews fleeing persecution in Nazi occupied Europe.

[@phillip_iv_planetking6354]

@@FlashPointHx But did she state how the Jews turned on the Spanish? Like opening the gates of Toledo to the Muslims? I hate it when people act like Jews were so innocent and did not deserve what happened to them. Hell,Christian Children saints are rolling in their graves right now.

[@FlashPointHx]

No Menochal is very one sided as well - she firmly believes there was only convivencia. I just read Brian Catlas’s ‘Kingdoms of Daith’ which gives a more balanced view of things

[@phillip_iv_planetking6354]

@@FlashPointHx Never read that. I need to pick it up.

[@CuckHunt]

Done spewing lies?

[@RandomGuy-ub3yp]

Sir, you are neglecting the real history of Hispania...you are Arab biased...I would recommend Raymond Ibrahim...do you have any idea what a Dhimmi is? Elevated? What a joke!!!

[@FlashPointHx]

The story thus far is from an Islamic Prespective. Take a listen to my Reconquista episode. I created that to give a sense of balance

[@henrikhansen1023]

Too much Arabism bias in your video - the Islamic occupation of Spain was exactly that - an occupation. And a very brutal and inhumane one - opposition was put the sword and women into sexual slavery. Asturian towns rebelled against their king due to the annual contigent of virgins he had agreed with Adb Al-Raman to pay as tribute as stipulated in a truce that he had made with him. Christians in Al Andalus were treated as dimmish subhumans according to sharia law. The myth of the Andalusian paradise is therefore exactly that - a myth. Created by a republican escaping Franco Spain - upheld by Western university faculties to maintain the financial upkeep from Islamic countries and thereby polluting our intelligensia with biased history and mislead movements fighting for an obscure vision of justice.

[@FlashPointHx]

wow - and any attempt to portray Islamic Spain as anything less than an oppressive, demeaning, totalitarian theocracy is just 100% wrong then? interesting insight

[@12vscience]

There is always good and bad. Here are a couple of presentations about the Crusades to provide some more info. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5rPd5WYoJ6drZY kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKXSpJKgZZKSZpY

[@wiseguy01]

No matter how you slice it the Moors of Spain were still much more lenient than the Christians. The Moors ruled Spain for centuries and yet Jews and Christians were allowed to remain, even if in a reduced status. Were the Christians so tolerant? Not even close. They banished Muslims and Jews from Spain and killed those who didn't convert. And that is not even going into the horrors of colonial Spain/Portugal, the millions dead and enslaved... the only peoples I can think of off the top of my head who were as bad or worse when it came to conquest and mass murder are the Mongols, that says a lot. And even they allowed religious freedom.

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@@ahrlj24 YOU SHUT UP, ENEMY OF ISLAM! YOU NEED MORE GUIDANCE FROM THE HOLY QURAN!!!

[@rowshonnabi5158]

@@wiseguy01 I agree.