The Return of the Noldor | Of the Lords of Beleriand : Silmarillion Explained - Part 2 of 10

[@KurtisCollinsYT]

The unintended use of 'singlehandedly' right after you discuss cutting off his hand is some great irony.

[@caladen182]

Ah, Fingon brings Maedhros back and single handedly reunites the Noldor. Well played.

[@SlimRhyno]

Hah, that thing about Fingon's packing priorities was hilarious. I mean, as a story device, bringing a harp on a solo rescue mission is crazy epic, but as a practical choice, it's arguably insane. Anywho, I still love it, and I have been genuinely loving these videos! Thank you so much for making them. I can only imagine the time and effort that went into them. 🙏

[@weseethetruth158]

Do you understand the importance of music and singing in Tolkien's universe?

[@gib59er56]

Your comment is hilarious too!! "I will whip out my harp now" I never thought about that. He must have been a serious musician, lol

[@redmagelibra2897]

It wasn't historically unusual for officers, lords, or kings to bring along instruments into war or on expeditions. Harps come in a number of sizes. I doubt it was a floor standing harp. If it was, I feel sorry for the lesser elves lugging it around.

[@SIMONCAVANAGH-n6y]

This was wonderful. Seriously. You're bringing these stories to life in such a way that I find myself able to connect with their content so much more than I have until now. Thank you Dave.

[@KingOfSciliy]

Just to prove how different Sindarin and Quenya are at this point, here are a few major names in their respective tongues and translations: Noldor = Ñoldo (Q) / Golodhrim (S): - Fëanor = Faenor (S) / Fëanáro (Quenya) - Maedhros (S) / Maitrussa (Q) - Maglor (S) / Makalaurë (Q) - Celegorm (S) / Tyelkormo (Q) - Caranthir (S) / Carnistir (Q) - Curufin (S) / Curvo (Q, long form: Curunfinwë) - Celebrimbor (S) / Telperinquar (Q) - Amrod (S) / Ambarto (Q) - Amras (S) / Ambarussa (Q) - Fingolfin (S) / (Finwë-)Ñolofinwë (Q) - Fingod (S) / Findekáno (Q) - Turgon (S) / Turukáno (Q) - Finarfin (S) / (Finwë-)Arafinwë - Finrod (S) / Findaráto (Q) - Angrod (S) / Angaráto (Q) - Aegnor (S) / Aikanáro (Q) - Galadriel (S) / Altáriel (Q) - Idril (S) / Itarillë (Q) - Tuor = Tugor (S) / Túormë (Q*) - Eärendil (Q) / Gaearmil (S*) Sindar (Q) / Sindeldi (S) - Elu Thingol (S) / Elwë Singollo (Q) - Melian (S) / Melyanna (Q) - Lúthien (S) / Lossëyene (Q*) - Beren (S) / Verya (Q*) - Dior (S) / Neuro (Q*) - Elwing (S) / Elwingë (Q*) - Elrond (S) / Elerondo (Q) - Elros (S) / Elerossë (Q) - Celeborn (S) / Teleporno (Q) - Celebrían (S) / Telpetári (Q*)

[@KingOfSciliy]

Valar (Q) / Balan (S) - Manwë Súlimo (Q) / Galue Thû (S) - Varda Elentári (Q) / Artha Elbereth (S) - Ulmo (Q)(S) - Nienna (Q) / Nínna (S) - Aulë (Q) / Gaul (S) - Yavanna Kementári Q) / Ivann Cevenris (S) - Oromë Taurëon (Q) / Arum Tauron (S) - Vána (Q) / Bân (S) - Tulkas Astaldo (Q) / Tolchas Thalion (S) - Nessa Indis (Q) / Neth Dineth (S) - Námo Mandos (Q) / Badhor Bannos (S) - Vairë (Q) / Gwîr (S) - Irmo Lórien (Q) / Irmo Lhuien (S) - Estë (Q) / Îdh (S) - Melkor "Morikotto" Maustir (Q) / Belegûr "Morgoth" Bauglir (S)

[@breenmcgeough806]

I feel sorry for Feanor's kids, felt like he cared more for the Silmarils then their lives

[@weseethetruth158]

Well he did he was obsessed with them.

[@gib59er56]

Feanor is the only Noldo who I hate. Curufin and Caranthir are pricks too. Maedhros is a complex guy, but he did try to keep peace between his brothers and Fingolfin`s House. Fingolfin was the most Viking like, of any Elf ever. He friggin called out the most powerful being ever, Morgoth. ( Melkor means" he who arises in might) and fights him one on one, hewing him 7 times and those wounds hobbled him forever.

[@weseethetruth158]

@@gib59er56 I actually dislike Feanor less than his son's. They could have denied the oath but chose not to. Feanor was bound by the energy he put into the sillmarils. Much like Sauron was bound to the 1 ring and to a lesser degree the other rings. His son's did evil shit to be evil and selfish like the B&L and Finrod situation.

[@gib59er56]

@@weseethetruth158 Hey man, that is a great point. I never thought of it as being a part of his spirit, just that he was obsessed by the 3 Silmarils. Very good take man. I think you have a very valid theory in the matter. Kudos!!

[@gib59er56]

@@weseethetruth158 Yes, Black foe of the world, I thought that is what I said, but I cannot find the comment. But, you are right in any case. Why do replies get lost all the time? It has happened a few times in the last week. My own `puter? Idk. Odd though. I really do like talking to Tolkien fans like you. You have your lore down very well!

[@nillynush4899]

What I love about "oaths" in LOTR is the fact that they have very real, physical power on the makers. If you made an oath to fight, and don't, you're literally Dooming yourself.

[@Phuskooz]

What an episode!! Morgoth to Maedhros on the summit of the Thangorodrim: “I wanna play a game”.

[@maedrosGR]

speaking of Caranthir's been kind of misanderstood, let's remember how he admired and treated the brave Haleth. Good of him

[@cuddles31]

Dave, I've been watching your playlists in order every night before falling asleep (sometimes I actually fall asleep but that's really good!) I look forward to bedtime every day now! Love the videos, they're so great to listen to, so comforting and relaxing.

[@janach1305]

Galadriel was the most famous child of Finarfin only in the later ages of Middle Earth. In the First Age Galadriel did little; her brother Finrod Felagund was by far the most renowned of Finarfin’s children.

[@jameshitt3263]

Shame on Feanor for the curse of that wicked oath that he thrust upon his sons, especially someone of such good character as Maedhros. Handing the kingship to Fingolfin, removing his awful brothers to the east, and placing his own home directly in the path of any assault from Morgoth... What a noble guy.

[@Mohutchmo]

I love all of your Tolkien videos. They truly bring the romance of the Sillmarillion to life for me. Thank you so much.

[@adb9231]

Thank you. This was fantastic. Love your commentaries ❤

[@billbaxter3800]

Excellent. You're a true story-teller Dave! I really enjoyed this one. Not much to add, just grateful. Thank you!

[@kaptcha]

I've been binging your videos, Rainbow Dave. We appreciate your hard work! Having never read the Silmarillion, I have found your lore videos so helpful, as your personal input and interpretations always resonate with me and bring me further into the story. Thanks for all you do for Middle Earth!

[@chomps163]

amazing videos. best tolkien channel on youtube

[@henriknielsen6998]

"Celegorm and Curufin are the worst". That does about sum it up.

[@enochvaldorian4574]

Oh hell ye! Absolutely addicted to these videos! Shared ^

[@sarahgould5435]

You're just going to keep breaking my heart with this Playlist, aren't you, Dave? Someday, eventually, you may convince me that Cirdan is a better choice (he keeps inching up in my rating with each mention) but, unless that happens, Fingolfin is by far my favorite character in all the Legendarium. But Maedhros...oh, Maedhros. Would it give proper weight to my meaning if I say...of all Tolkien's characters, Maedhros seems to me to have the life most worthy to inspire Nienna's tears? He has the loyal and steadfast heart of a hero but lacks the wisdom to see how evil his oath was until it is far, far too late. He has virtue, but not wisdom to back it. Since wisdom in Tolkien's works seems to be specifically referring to knowledge and understanding of goodness, I suppose it's not really wrong to call him "morally gray." Any other tragic Tolkien character, even the cursed Turin has some mitigating circumstance, some successful or redeeming act of heroism or some willful act of villainy to give a measure of peace to whatever tragedy they face. Even his other brothers don't really seem to me to face quite the same struggle with the Oath as he does. But Maedhros, with the heart of a steadfast friend, cursed himself to inevitable evil without even seeming to realize that was what he had done. No matter what good his heart wanted to do, he was cursed to ultimately turn to bloodshed. And the only one who had cursed him to that was his own unwise, I think even somewhat unwitting, self, before he ever had a chance to live up to his heart. I have to wonder how much his end was driven by his oath and how much was a deliberate realization that it was the only way to end the curse he laid on himself.

[@ConnerMacKenzie]

Just discovered this channel and I'm really enjoying it!

[@mingthan7028]

Feanor dying hits me as much as death of Eddard Stark does. I mean, Fëanor is presented as the most powerful Noldor. I thought he's gonna beat Morgoth's ass

[@buntun3670]

the sons of Feanor were nice by themselves - were dangerous as a group due to the oath. I have a particular like for Curufin when he meets Eol in the "meeting of the aholes" scene when Eol is chasing after Aradhel and Maeglin

[@southhill6667]

Woo, let's go! Been looking forward to this series continuing!

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

RD....you never cease to amaze me bruddah. I think I prefer your videos over much of the other channels. You can tell you have a passion for Tolkien. As do I. Let me just say that an argument over who's was a better warrior ECTHELION! or Glorfindel, almost came to blows. Just the fact that someone was trying to compare these 2. Obviously The Lord of the Fountain is tougher(in my most humble opinion). You don't hear elves using Glorfindels name as a battle cry. Have a great day RD! ECTHELION!

[@InsideTheProduct]

Awesome video again! I know that Maglor is not a big player, but is one of my favorites, on top of that, is probably the only left alive in Middle Earth of all these princes.

[@bongo_baggins]

With a loadout like that, Fingon has got to be a bard.

[@GeraldM_inNC]

On several occasion the elves recognized a mortal man immediately by his eyes, such as when Elamachiel met Tuor. In what way do the eyes of mortal men differ from the eyes of elves? Of course they are vastly inferior, that is stated on many occasions, but how could they differ appearance so starkly that they immediately give a mortal man away?

[@itshenry8977]

dunno but legolas found out that imrahil had elven blood just from looking at him

[@penclaire]

Well, in the first age most high elves had seen the trees therefore there is a distinct and very literal light in their eyes which differ from mortals. Secondly, elven (or elvhen) eyes are usually appear older and appear more jarring/striking. Which is probably true for adult elves as child elves are said to look like human children! Thirdly, it has been theorized that because elves see so far, that their eyes have to be bigger, including their pupils but that's just a theory. Hope this helps!! Sorry, I didn't go into too much detail ☺️☺️

[@valentinomiller6251]

What did Fingon leave behind due to his harp? Given that music is at the forefront of Elves' minds, leaving his harp behind probably was not an option and perhaps among the first things, if not thee first thing that he'd packed.

[@earendilthebright5402]

I know you said Elven, but I cannot unhear "..Feanor the greatest elephant smith" lol

[@ThorAnderson]

Fingons packing of the harp is because, im not sure if you've ever played dnd but im fairly certain all first age elves are innately powerful bards because of the nature of magic in Tolkiens universe. Musical instruments amplify a bards magic so to go without it would be like a power lifter going to compete without a lifting belt. I would argue that it was an essential piece of kit given his skill set.

[@josephyoung6749]

This would be its own huge movie-type thing

[@theMightywooosh]

By far the best Lord of the Rings channel... And they're all good, I think this one goes the deepest into the lore

[@stetsonstarkey]

This series is killer. Keep up the great work!

[@ianheins650]

I wish playlists would show these in order

[@greendragn]

Elves can die of starvation, Dior's twin sons were left in the forest to starve to death by the cruel servants of Celegorm it says in the Silmarillion. Morgoth must have had the orcs bring Maedhros food and water so he wouldn't die. As he was a valuable hostage as king of the Noldor. Maybe Dior was a man since Beren and Luthien came back as mortals so their son would be a mortal. But Dior's wife was an Elf, so not sure if the boys were considered elves or men...

[@magiv4205]

He probably put a similar spell on him as he did on Húrin, to keep him in a kind of stasis. He probably let him starve but made him unable to die.

[@annaanisa7388]

@@magiv4205 Agreed. That’s exactly what I was thinking. Morgoth probably “preserved” him just at the brink of death, rather than allowing him to fully die.

[@tmdavidson1478]

Such a mashup of Greek myth and the crucifixion. In the first a god is crucified to a rock for sharing divine fire (light?) with humans. In the second, the son of God is the light of the world and is crucified to a tree and is resurrected. Feanor's son is crucified as a result of Feanor's refusal to return the only remaining light that could resurrect the two trees.

[@J0HNJ0RDAN]

Acoustic guitar is priority packing, for me.. so I kinda understand the harp! 🎶😅

[@Labyrinth1010]

So good, Rainbow Dave!

[@NethP]

„And if anyone ever tells you that Tolkien doesn't have any morally gray characters, then point them in the direction of Maedhros.” Do I love Maedhros? Nope. I OBSESS 🤩

[@AK.__]

Amazing tale, thank you! What I feel during each and every episode, that in every given moment of time, the Valar, with let's say combined power could stop forever the Melkor (Morgoth), same relates the Mayar with Sauron. They didn't do this. Or it was intentional position of not intervene into the life of Eru's creations, or it simple equation of keeping universe balance - there is no light without darkness.

[@johnchukwuemekaagbaeze6473]

The Eagles were maias.. That's one detail everyone don't seem to grasp it's importancs. They are not just birds, they are in the same level as Gandalf and the istarils, and Sauron. That explains why they are so powerful.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Absolutely fantastic stuff. There's no definite article before Thangorodrim. It's like saying the Everest or the Vesuvius.

[@Phuskooz]

Here for my third watch / listen

[@blanchybaby]

Who drew the last picture of the battle? It’s awesome!

[@GeraldM_inNC]

@25:22 -- Didn't I see Maglor on stage leading a band in an arena-rock concert?

[@AMScott91]

I've always been a bit iffy on linguistic evolution in immortal elves. What motivates it?

[@OllieScambaiter]

Fëanor, the greatest elephant smith indeed.

[@MichaelDG2023]

🙊

[@fayolaplays3276]

Elephant?😄😄😅😂

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

Ah yes, Feyenoord, the greatest elephant smith who forged the syllables (automatic subtitles for context)

[@adventuretime19781]

Lmao😂

[@mlebrooks]

Hooray!

[@AlannahDedman]

I’m not sure if you cover it, I still have many of your videos to get through, but is it mentioned how long elves are in childhood? Or do they grow at a normal rate in childhood and then slow down as adults? Also what age is considered adulthood for elves?

[@ethanquirk28]

I’m not sure it’s ever mentioned the time it takes for elves to reach maturity because that’s relying on a narrative timeframe given by a people who largely ignore the passage of time. That being said they do seem to have interesting rites of passage. Like multiple have two names, one given by the mother and one by the father. One is used in childhood and then they are known by the other upon becoming adults. Maeglin for example was given the name by his father only at the age of 12, though he was secretly called Lómion by his mother since birth. Feanor was named such by his mother, though his father had named him Curufinwë upon recognising his talents. Though I suppose in his case he kept his mother-given name due to his dispute with his fathers remarriage and subsequent children who all took their father-given name into adulthood

[@GeraldM_inNC]

I've always been puzzled about Maedhros's statement that the the kingship should go to the oldest member of the family, not the one in the direct line. That has never been a principle of Western Civilization, and I'm willing to bet that if you applied it literally many of the elven kings of the first age wouldn't have been kings.

[@vectoor91]

Seniority succession isn't super common but not unheard of. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnatic_seniority

[@cathoodiegirl4118]

When thinking of the hilarity of the idea to us of Fingon the Valiant, of all things he could have rolled up to friggin Angband, the Stronghold of fucking Tolkien Satan, with, He chooses a *Harp*, I always consider the following: Elves not only can fight using conventional sorts of weapons like Swords, Bows, Daggers and such, but also Magic. And Fingon, Born from Fingolfin who was the son of not only a Noldor King Finwe but also a lady of the rare and powerful Vanyar, It makes sense for him to possess Magic involving music. Especially if you look at the Duel between Sauron later and Finrod Felagund during the Tale of Beren and Luthien, which was also a battle of Song. 😅 So as weird and Fucked as far as priorities go for us it might seem, if you look at it like that, Maybe it isn't so strange to think that Fingon probably could use the power of sick rhymes against the Armies of Angband... And that he pulled up to Angband with that thought of possibility in mind. Dude was gonna go full Bard on em.

[@beersmurff]

"A Silmaril", one, not all three. And since the oath was to bring them all back it was a moot offer. If Morgoth had offered all three, they would clearly have accepted. But he only offered one.

[@rorygillmore6555]

How would people not see a character like Saruman, or Thranduil, or even Gollum as "Grey" characters? 😂 even Morgoth and Feanor and his sons. Turin as well. Tolkien presents most characters in his very time specific stories as good or bad guys but most characters would be considered "grey" if you examined their entire existence in Arda.

[@rjb639]

I don't think there was anything grey about Morgoth, or Saruman, or Feanor. Feanor wasn't a grey character, in one hand, he was a genius but that speaks of his abilities, not his persona. He was plain awful, did awful (and stupid) things. Gollum can be seen as a victim, however, he did kill Deagol even before possessing the ring. and as per Thranduil, he might be grey in Peter Jackson's depiction in the Hobbit, which as storytelling was atrocious. Peter Jackson murdered the Hobbit.

[@wandaaufderspringe2102]

I think or know for myself.. That Celegorm and Curufin are te WORST of all sons. I actually really like Caranthir. Or want to like him. Tolkien said that he is the quickest to anger and his name might say 'red face' (mothers name if I remember correctly) but I always think that if caranthir wasn't bound to his oath he would be great at the work and the trading thing he did and if he lived he still would be doing that

[@chingizzhylkybayev8575]

It does NOT actually make sense linguistically that Elven languages drifted apart. A large amount of the Sindar of Beleriand were alive even at the awakening at Cuivienen. There was no reason for them, at any point of their lives, to change the way they were speaking at all. They would teach their language to their children and since they still stick around, there is no reason for their children to suddenly start speaking a language their parents wouldn't understand, and so on. The reason we have language evolution in the real world is that generations pass. This shouldn't happen to Elves because their demographics are largely static.

[@rogersmith3657]

That's not true, languages evolve due to all sorts of cultural and environmental influences, even among peoples who stay largely static over a long time; it isn't just about different generations. And in any case, the changes from one generation to the next are usually subtle.

[@chingizzhylkybayev8575]

@@rogersmith3657 it is ENTIRELY about different generations. You may pick up some new words in your lifetime, like names for new inventions or some new slang, but you will NOT change the way you say "dog" or "can" or "red".

[@lucyosborne9239]

There's little chance this question will be answered after three years, but I'll ask anyway. What was Morgoth's motivation for being so evil? Getting kicked out of Valinor? Jealousy? Sewing dischord at the beginning, when the first songs were sung, doesn't have an obvious motive. What would consume someone so greatly as to make others suffer as often and as deeply as he can manage?

[@Deluthan77]

Does anyone know what the elvish salutations at the beginning and end of Rainbow Dave's videos mean?

[@davidthetraveler1466]

Always nice to see the younger generations doing their best to make up for the sins of the past.

[@claqyagami6914]

even if thousands of years had passed, would the languages have changed that much? You compare Latin and Italian, but this is between mortals who at that time lived what, 40-50 yrs tops maybe, in that period of time. These are immortals where the same people from the very beginning would still be alive all those thousands of years later. Just something I have always wondered about.

[@kyatatsumuri]

I have a question about the Stars/Trees/Sun-light in Arda. As far as I understand, initially there were the great lamps that illuminated all of Arda and, when they were destroyed, the Middle-earth was lighted by the stars, while in Valinor they eventually had the two trees with their immense light, right? When the trees were destroyed, the last flower and the last fruit became the moon and the sun. Now, I'm curious about whether the light of the trees reached the Middle-earth or not. It may well be a misunderstanding but, from this storyline, it seems like, while Valinor is lighted by the trees' light, the Middle-earth only knows the light of the stars. Yet later, when the sun and the moon are forged, they are enough to illuminate the whole Arda even if they are made by a remaining flower and fruit (a very small light if compared to what the trees should have been). Sorry for the long comment and question. I really like your videos and your way of telling the story. Thank you for your work!

[@tolkienuntangled]

Very good question. The reason the sun and the moon are able to light both Valinor and Middle-earth is because they're guided across the sky by two Maia; Arien the protector of the sun, and Tilion the protector of the moon.

[@kyatatsumuri]

@@tolkienuntangled I see! I didn’t think about that! Thank you very much for your answer and for your hard work!😊

[@marleyjr00]

Feanor was a madlad. Dude got pissed af about Melkor for stealing his shit and decided to commit a small scale genocide to get some ships to sail to Middle Earth to fuck Melkor up. And then he even charged the field of Ard Gallen to the gates of Angband and fought Balrogs. Pretty badass.

[@AndrzejZalewskiYT]

0:18 this is Celeborn, not Thingol ;) beside that, great vid!

[@florinbelgun6731]

At 32:02 you mention the splitting of quenya and sindarin due to “the passing of time, as it would happen in real life”. However, in real life people die of natural causes and thus the language is passed through multiple generations which alter it. But the elves are immortal and before the arrival of the Noldor in ME there were only few battles to give the opportunity to some elves to die, therefore many of the Sindar, as well as many of the Noldor spoke the same language at the beginning. I find it hard to understand why an elven king like Elu Thingol (who spoke the same language as Finwe as they were close friends) changed his language over time to such a great extent. Remember, he was the king so there is no reason he would alter his speech after some younger elves! The only explanation I find is that quenya was influenced by the Valar who imposed (not by force but through respect) the language of the elves in Aman, which makes sindarin close to the original language of the elves and quenya a more recent language derived from the “old sindarin” through the influence of the Valar.

[@ethanquirk28]

Slang develops overtime according to culture and custom and is gradually adopted into the lexicon. Thousands of years passed between their meeting.

[@highmolecularweightRDX]

1:19 Who is the guy who is not Feanor or one of his sons in that picture?

[@tolkienuntangled]

The guy dying in Maedhros' arms is Feanor, and the other seven are his sons.

[@highmolecularweightRDX]

@@tolkienuntangled Shouldn't one of his sons be dead?

[@gamamiful]

Just for your knowledge rumainian is also a latin alnguage

[@paulgalligan1916]

This is the bee's knee's

[@judowrestlerka]

Fëanor and his maladapted sons carried out Morgoths WILL more efficiently and with equal hate than Sauron.

[@krystianklima2503]

💪

[@mygetawayart]

the relatioship between Fingon and Maedhros is to me even closer than Gimli and Legolas'. Fingon and Maedhros, the way they're described, feels like they're more genuinly in love with each other than just being great friends, whereas Gimli and Legolas have no hint or implication of being more than friends.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

They are first cousins????

[@GeraldM_inNC]

OK, here's a question. If the orcs were elves that Morgoth had corrupted and distorted, shouldn't they still have the elves' eternal youth?

[@tolkienuntangled]

That's a very good question. Tolkien's writings about the origins of the orcs changed a lot over the course of his life, and so it's very difficult to know whether he considered them immortal like elves, and whether he intended them to have an Elf's soul (fëa).

[@GeraldM_inNC]

@@tolkienuntangled I don't see how breeding elves to make them as ugly, docile, and evil as possible would change something as fundamental in their DNA as their life-span. That also raises the question of whether elves could interbreed. All common sense says that if Morgorth bred orcs from elves, then orcs and elves should be able to interbreed. Any dog breed can have offspring with any other breed; in fact, dogs and their distant ancestors wolves can breed.

[@Namenlos-fo1ek]

I am not sure but I can‘t remember, was it ever stated that the Orks have a limited lifespan

[@PalmelaHanderson]

As far as I know, we don't ever hear of Orcs dying from old age, so maybe they were immortal in the beginning. I'd like to think that once Men came onto the scene, they would prove to be much more valuable a resource for corruption, though. They multiply faster, are more easily corrupted, etc. So maybe, by the time Men are really populating the Earth, Morgoth/Sauron wouldn't really be interested in trying to corrupt Elves? It just seems like it wouldn't be worth the effort. And we also know that Orcs had baby Orcs (Bolg was the "son" of Azog, and maybe they only meant that in a figurative sense), which means... there must have been female Orcs? Like Dave said, though, Tolkien changed the lore around Orcs a few different times, so it's possible/probable that even he couldn't make up his mind about it.

[@PalmelaHanderson]

Another interesting thing to ponder. Tolkien said in the War of Wrath: All creatures were divided, save for the Elves. The implication there being that there were Orcs who fought AGAINST Morgoth. I've always found that interesting. I want to hear that story.

[@mingthan7028]

All these shits for some shiny pebbles?

[@emiledesrochers244]

lost his sword hand ? similar to Jamie from GOT so JR Martin stole this idea from this

[@ryanjuguilon213]

Only Elves in Belerian. The Avaris were still in east

[@baneofwar3304]

feanor reminds me of a lot of people who I don't like 🤔

[@EssencialUtilidades]

Capitalism or cruelty, that's the choices, ask Venezuela If you don't believe

[@matt_9112]

Always hard to tell eho the most useless pair of brothers is. Amrod and Amras, Angrod and Aegnor or Celegorm and Curufin. I guess Celegorm and Curufin at least do stuff (nothing good as we know), Angrod got Quenya banned in Doriath, so I guess the two sons of Feanor take it for me.

[@vadiromsombra6832]

JAV jav \

[@scottmccrea1873]

Racist - wouldn't "speciest" be more accurate?

[@tolkienuntangled]

Yeah that's very true. Race has a different meaning in Tolkien's writings than it does in the real world, and I'm glad you pointed that out. Elves, Men, and Dwarves are closer to being a different species than different races.

[@scottmccrea1873]

@@tolkienuntangled Yep. That's how I've always thought of it. Elves & men can interbreed, but there's nothing in the lore about Elves/Dwarves or Dwarves/Men (tho' Dwarves/Hobbits would probably be a better, ah, fit...couldn't resist) having relationships or children. Pretty clear to me why - Elves & Men are both Children of Illuvatar whereas Dwarves, of course, are children of Aule. Probably the closest we get to the kind of real world ethnic conflict - as you point out - is the First Age wars between the Dwarves & Elves. Yes, of course, there were times when Men fought on the Dark Side, but it was never part of some anti-Elf thing. There really is nothing comparable to 19th/20th century racism. Some of the Elves seem to take an attitude of superiority to the other 2 races, but it's never developed into any kind of ideology (which is probably reflective of Tolkein's generation which was way before the racial obsessions of the mid-late 20th century. But most Elves seem to have taken a benevolent, almost paternal attutude toward Men. And Men don't seem to have negative attitudes toward Elves per se, most men regarding them as beings far above and different than Men. Sorry this reply is so long!